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gomipile
2011-03-02, 04:55 PM
Is there any way to make a wisdom-based arcane caster?

Essence_of_War
2011-03-02, 05:04 PM
Not that I know of. I thought the best bet would be to try using the Generic Classes from the SRD, but even there you're rebuffed since it requires arcane casters to cast from int or cha, while divine casters cast from wis.

You can get psionics to cast from wis rather trivially, (psy war, ardent) and you can get divine casters to cast off of int (archivist), but I don't think the arcane spells from wis route is possible.

Psyren
2011-03-02, 05:05 PM
Is there any way to make a wisdom-based arcane caster?

Yes, homebrew :smalltongue:

If it's just the spells you're after, there are divine casters that get arcane spells, like Divine Bard and Shugenja... Clerics get some through domains, and you can get several arcane-ish effects through psionics, using the Ardent for a Wis basis.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-03-02, 05:24 PM
There is a 3rd party feat "lost tradition" that let's you change your casting stat to any other stat. It is found in Bastards & Bloodlines IIRC.

Also the Dark hunter (web check the current IC ) is a wis based arcane spellcaster.

gomipile
2011-03-02, 05:25 PM
Yes, homebrew :smalltongue:

If it's just the spells you're after, there are divine casters that get arcane spells, like Divine Bard and Shugenja... Clerics get some through domains, and you can get several arcane-ish effects through psionics, using the Ardent for a Wis basis.

No, I wanted it for a Theurge-type build to pair with Cleric. Wizard+Archivist loses out on some Cleric class features I wanted.

Also, its for a 25 point buy, so the build needs to be SAD for casting stats.

Psyren
2011-03-02, 05:31 PM
As stated, without 3rd-party or homebrew you are stuck. WotC's design philosophy has been "Wis = Divine." (Though not necessarily Divine = Wis.)

Zaq
2011-03-02, 07:49 PM
Have some ideas. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186097)

holywhippet
2011-03-02, 08:26 PM
No, I wanted it for a Theurge-type build to pair with Cleric. Wizard+Archivist loses out on some Cleric class features I wanted.

Also, its for a 25 point buy, so the build needs to be SAD for casting stats.

You've pretty much nailed the reason there are no WIS based arcane casters - they don't want theurge types to be overpowered.

Mastikator
2011-03-02, 08:31 PM
Why not go with int based divine caster instead?

cZak
2011-03-02, 08:35 PM
The Divine Bard from UA is a wisdom based arcane caster

Thurbane
2011-03-02, 08:35 PM
As well as the Unseelie Dark Hunter linked above, there is a third party feat that will key your casting off any ability. It's called Lost Tradition, is 1st level only, and will key your casting for one class off any stat (even the physical ones). So if third party material is allowed, you could take this feat to key your Wizard, Sorcerer or any other casting off WIS. The feat appears in the book Bastards & Bloodlines.

If you're looking to make a theurge based primarily off one stat, there are other options. A Favored Soul/Sorcerer is primarily CHA based - the only thing that runs off WIS is your FS DCs. If you stick to buffs and other spells with no DC on the FS side, you're golden.

You could also try a Wizard/Archivist, based mainly off INT. The only thing running off WIS would be your Archivist bonus spells...

The Divine Bard from UA is a wisdom based arcane caster
Their maximum spells level is based off WIS, but DC and bonus spells is still based off CHA.

FMArthur
2011-03-02, 08:35 PM
You can do it very easily with the Geomancer prestige class, but since you're looking for something dual-progression you'll need something with fast progression to make up for 11 lost levels on your divine side...

I don't think it's actually possible for dual 9s this way barring Assume Supernatural Ability entry into Beholder Mage.

Thurbane
2011-03-02, 08:45 PM
Actually, thinking about it, a Favored Soul/Sorcerer might be a good mystic theurge. With Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten spell (or similar), you could jump into Mystic Theurge at 4th level: FS 2/Sorc 1/MT X. You'd need to find a way to get Knowledge (religion) as a class skill, but that's fairly easy.

So, FS 2/Sorc 1/MT 10/Legacy Champion 6/FS 1 would get you 18th level FS casting and 16th level Sorc casting. Not too bad.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-02, 09:22 PM
The Divine Bard from UA is a wisdom based arcane caster
Nope, the Divine Bard casts divine spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm).

holywhippet
2011-03-02, 10:31 PM
Nope, the Divine Bard casts divine spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm).

Correct. In fact in many ways the divine bard is worse than the normal sort because they need a high enough WIS score to be able to cast any given level of spell, but rely on CHA for everything else.

Ravens_cry
2011-03-02, 10:52 PM
Correct. In fact in many ways the divine bard is worse than the normal sort because they need a high enough WIS score to be able to cast any given level of spell, but rely on CHA for everything else.
16 Wisdom isn't terribly hard to get by 14th level, but it does require resources that could be put elsewhere. Personally, I always felt that the duel casting stat felt like an unnecessary gimp for most classes that have it, especially for classes that also require physical stats to work well.

Psyren
2011-03-02, 11:54 PM
16 Wisdom isn't terribly hard to get by 14th level, but it does require resources that could be put elsewhere. Personally, I always felt that the duel casting stat felt like an unnecessary gimp for most classes that have it, especially for classes that also require physical stats to work well.

I think casters are powerful enough that making them all need two casting stats like that (DAD?) wouldn't be a major issue. The only thing you need to be sure is that one stat covers both bonus spells and save DCs (call this one the "pump stat") and the other covers highest-level spells known. (The "bar stat.")

holywhippet
2011-03-02, 11:54 PM
The last time I played a bard - I had a WIS score of 8. This was point buy so I didn't spend a single point on it because every other stat was far more important than WIS. I could have attained 16 WIS if I wanted to, but I would have considered it to be wasteful - like a wizard maxxing out STR.

ericgrau
2011-03-02, 11:55 PM
No, I wanted it for a Theurge-type build to pair with Cleric. Wizard+Archivist loses out on some Cleric class features I wanted.

Also, its for a 25 point buy, so the build needs to be SAD for casting stats.

This and will saves is exactly why it's stronger than an int or cha based arcane caster. Ya you should homebrew it, but make sure it has some drawback to compensate. Maybe... spells per day = sorcerer spells known plus bonus spells. Each only cast-able 1/day unless you pick duplicates. So you cast like a wizard but without being able to swap spells in the morning and so on. Worst of both worlds. And yet tolerable on a theurge type.

Vknight
2011-03-03, 12:01 AM
Or take the feat, and let your Dm eventually notice your spell DC's are awfully high considering your Int score.

That or take flaws if allowed.

But yeah they didn't want Arcane and Divine people to become Theurges that cause death upon there foes at level 10.

TaJaDol
2011-03-03, 12:35 AM
You can do it very easily with the Geomancer prestige class, but since you're looking for something dual-progression you'll need something with fast progression to make up for 11 lost levels on your divine side...

I don't think it's actually possible for dual 9s this way barring Assume Supernatural Ability entry into Beholder Mage.

Loredrake Kobold into Ur-Priest.

MammonAzrael
2011-03-03, 06:41 AM
I remember asking for something similar a long while back. What I wound up with was The Demented One creating the Thaumaturge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86550). :smallsmile:

Haarkla
2011-03-03, 08:06 AM
No, I wanted it for a Theurge-type build to pair with Cleric. Wizard+Archivist loses out on some Cleric class features I wanted.

Also, its for a 25 point buy, so the build needs to be SAD for casting stats.
INT: 15
WIS: 15
CON: 14
DEX: 11
STR: 8
CHA: 8

Are perfectly acceptable stats for a mystic theurge.

As are INT: 16, WIS: 15, DEX: 15, CON: 12, CHA: 8, STR: 6, race: Grey Elf.

Thurbane
2011-03-03, 04:20 PM
If he wants Turning from Cleric, he probably wants higher than 8 CHA...

Analysis
2011-03-03, 07:06 PM
This and will saves is exactly why it's stronger than an int or cha based arcane caster. Ya you should homebrew it, but make sure it has some drawback to compensate. Maybe... spells per day = sorcerer spells known plus bonus spells. Each only cast-able 1/day unless you pick duplicates. So you cast like a wizard but without being able to swap spells in the morning and so on. Worst of both worlds. And yet tolerable on a theurge type.

I respectfully disagree. You are one or two spell levels down. Wis might help more things than Cha but less than Int. Will saves do not really matter, as you are at least triple classed in high Will save classes, you will make those saves anyway. In my opinion a Wis-based wizard, say, would be weaker than an Int-based, even in a theurge build. I would allow it without compensation.

FMArthur
2011-03-03, 08:44 PM
I think casters are powerful enough that making them all need two casting stats like that (DAD?) wouldn't be a major issue. The only thing you need to be sure is that one stat covers both bonus spells and save DCs (call this one the "pump stat") and the other covers highest-level spells known. (The "bar stat.")

I'd rather eliminate the "bar stat" altogether since all it does is arbitrarily disclude low-stat characters (like NPCs) from being what they really need to be. I like the idea of splitting save DCs and bonus spells - quantity vs quality. Extra spells lets you be more versatile and have better staying power, while save DCs influence how powerful the spells you cast are... ostensibly (if only so much of that wasn't part of caster level and not save DCs).

Prime32
2011-03-03, 10:12 PM
You could always dip into (cloistered) cleric for Turn Undead.

TroubleBrewing
2011-03-03, 10:20 PM
Mystic Theurge (if that is your intended target) is a horrible, insidious trap. To quote Eldariel (in his guide to being batman), "Play a Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 1 in the same party as a Cleric 7 and a Wizard 7. Then cry." Straight wizard or straight cleric is better, and both of those are SAD classes.

FMArthur
2011-03-03, 11:25 PM
Early entry makes it a very good deal actually. A 1 level dip in Divine class X followed by MT 10 to gain 11 levels in another full-casting class is pretty awesome if you ask me. If you're looking for something that is strictly, 100% stronger in every way (spoiled by Incantatrices?), then don't do it. This decision is about options and playstyle; and both vanilla and MT have their advantage. I think the actual balance point for theurges IMO would be entry after 2 levels in each class, a mark missed by both the intended design and practical entry unfortunately. :smallsigh:

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2011-03-04, 07:48 PM
There is one legal such example. Now be a good min/maxer and search BG for some of my work. Hint all you have to d

gomipile
2011-03-04, 07:55 PM
There is one legal such example. Now be a good min/maxer and search BG for some of my work. Hint all you have to d

Your post gave me two headaches. The second one was due to your not finishing i

Thurbane
2011-03-04, 08:10 PM
Your post gave me two headaches. The second one was due to your not finishing i
It's his trademark... :smalltongue:

gomipile
2011-03-04, 10:19 PM
Okay then. Does anyone have any idea what PlzBreakMyCmpAn was referring to then? I found his post useless and inscrutable. As in, I tried searching for terms relevant to this thread, adding his name to the search terms, and came up with nothing of appreciable worth.

Thurbane
2011-03-04, 10:37 PM
He seems to specialize (over on the Brilliant Gameologists forum, especially) in theoretical (and practical) optimization. I'm guessing he's got a build somewhere that is optimized at either theurgy or WIS based arcane casting...

Would probably be a lot more straight forward if he posted a link instead of dropping cryptic clues.

ericgrau
2011-03-04, 11:00 PM
I respectfully disagree. You are one or two spell levels down. Wis might help more things than Cha but less than Int. Will saves do not really matter, as you are at least triple classed in high Will save classes, you will make those saves anyway. In my opinion a Wis-based wizard, say, would be weaker than an Int-based, even in a theurge build. I would allow it without compensation.

The wis arcane theurge is still better than an int arcane theurge and the single class wis arcane caster is still better than an int based single class arcane caster. I think you're mixing up theurge-ness with wis-based-ness. They are 2 distinct issues. The theurge gets an extra boost due to SAD, but that is a benefit not a drawback. Good things with no drawback cannot possibly be bad things.

Wizards tend to have surprisingly moderate will save due to this. Both myself and others playing arcane casters had plenty of times when will was the low save, or one of the two low saves. Unless you're getting a +10 from somewhere, like a cleric, additional bonuses are very much relevant.

Thurbane
2011-03-04, 11:03 PM
Personally, INT is my favorite casting stat...I just love the extra skills. There's plenty of items and feats to shore up a mediocre Will save.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2011-03-05, 11:02 AM
It's his trademark... :smalltongue:Over at BG I can speak without fear. Quick! Here are the link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8664.0)s (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a) before the mods se

true_shinken
2011-03-05, 11:11 AM
Over at BG I can speak without fear. Quick! Here are the link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8664.0)s (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a) before the mods se

Zaq beat you to it by miles

gomipile
2011-03-05, 02:12 PM
Yeah, prestige classes don't really help if they don't have 18 levels and cannot be qualified for before level 4. The existence of a wis-based arcane casting prestige class is interesting, though.