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View Full Version : [3.5] subsystem "Proficiency Tricks", help me make them!



Pechvarry
2011-03-03, 12:31 PM
So Arguskos was inspired by that weapons suck thread, and in turn, I was inspired to dig out this idea I worked on about a year ago. Sorry, Arguskos, if this steps on the toes of your brainstorming.

The core idea is that you can make your weapon choice awesomer and more relevant. In addition to more mundane neat tricks put in the hands of players, I feel this could eventually replace most of the more basic exotic weapons.

What this is: a new mechanic to integrate into 3.5 games, based on Complete Scoundrel's skill tricks. These are purchased like skill points, but don't necessarily work the same (they don't come with a built-in 1 use/encounter format).

Proficiency Tricks: Choose some piece of equipment. This is a type of item, or an item constructed in a specific way, but never a unique item (e.g. "longsword." never "this longsword." Though it may be "any longsword modified in this particular way.") These seek to make certain equipment more viable and keep equipment decisions relevant as your career progresses. They tend to either make an item "exotic" in function or offset penalties associated with your choices. Naturally, this second category of Proficiency Tricks should only become available at the point of someone's career where the drawbacks outweigh the benefits. For example, Sais for disarming reach this point the moment you gain proficiency in them (zing!). One thing to keep in mind: try to avoid Proficiency Tricks that make already good combos better. For example, a skill trick to make Greataxes deal double damage while charging is going to be ridiculous if any charge build can get access to it (in addition to double damage probably being too potent for skill tricks). I would also stay away from things that either make reach weapons better or provide weapons reach all the time (once/round, or only during your turn aren't so bad). Proficiency Tricks have the following reqs:
a) Item wielded or worn.
b) Proficiency in said item.
c) BAB reqs. As purely martial techniques, Proficiency Tricks tend to have a BAB requirement of at least +1.
d) Skill reqs. As important as BAB reqs, but should not be terribly high (though they might require multiple skills). In most instances, they should be reasonably achievable as cross-class skills. These tricks indicate a familiarity with the associated skills, but rather than dedicated training with the skill, it represents specific combat training applying the skill's concepts.
e) In some instances, feats make good reqs. These should always strive to be low-investment feats (those with very few prereqs of their own), and usually aim to make a "meh" feat more effective, given the correct gear. While these sorts will typically have low BAB and skill reqs, they should still adhere to rules a) through d).

A word on Skill Reqs: The skill reqs will typically be physical skills. But when you're not sure what to use, remember good ol' Martial Lore. As a skill that represents knowledge of warfare, it fits very well for pulling out special tricks reminiscent of the way Sublime classes Initiate. In fact, regardless of what other skill reqs your Proficiency Trick has already, consider adding a req of 1-4 ranks in Martial Lore, especially if it's already a bit high on the power level. Many Proficiency Tricks are the results of ingenuity or improvisation. If a Proficiency Trick requires physical modifications to equipment, consider adding a scant few ranks in a Craft skill as a prerequisite.

Purchasing Proficiency Tricks: Purchasing a Proficiency Trick costs 2 skill points, just like any other skill trick. However, skill tricks and proficiency tricks do not count towards the same limits. You may have a number of proficiency tricks equal to 1/2 your BAB, rounded UP.

Too much investment?While the low skill reqs are intended to keep these relatively low investment, it's definitely not outside the realm of reason to either a) up skill ranks for classes across the board or b) give classes extra proficiency tricks as a class feature. For example, Fighters could get them at 5 odd levels, or even 9 of them. Monks and [s]rogues[/sl] paladins are also good candidates for an "extra skill trick" class feature.

I want the concept PEACHed, so I'm going to put some sample proficiency tricks in the 2nd post instead, to keep the focus of the 1st post on the process. Do tell if you have ideas for improvement.

Pechvarry
2011-03-03, 12:33 PM
Fast Latch
You've customized your armor for quick access and faster disrobing. Useful in tandem with Swashbuckler Seduction.
Prerequisites: Proficiency in chosen armor, Sleight of Hand 1 rank, Craft (armorsmithing) 1 rank, BAB +2
Benefit: Halve the time it takes to don or remove armor, to a minimum of a move action. Additionally, if this ability is chosen for Half-plate or Full plate, you may now don the armor yourself without suffering the "Hastily donned" drawbacks.
Special: Before you can make use of this skill trick, you must modify your chosen armor. This takes 1 hour per category (light, medium, or heavy) and the expenditure of some raw materials. The GP value of this expenditure is 25 GP per size category (light 25, medium 50, and heavy 75).

Sweeping Staff
With a little effort, a staff is easily adapted to tripping.
Prereq: BAB +3, Martial Lore 1 rank, Balance 3 ranks
Benefit: You may treat a quarterstaff as a tripping weapon. In addition to being able to drop your weapon to avoid a counter-trip, you also gain a +2 on opposed trip attempts.

Simple Sweep
This weapon is great! I bet it could even knock people off their feet!
Prereq: BAB +3, Martial Lore 1 rank, Balance 3 ranks
Benefit: Choose a simple weapon. You may treat it as a tripping weapon, able to be dropped to avoid a counter-trip.

Martial Sweep
This weapon is great! I bet it could even knock people off their feet!
Prereq: BAB +4, Martial Lore 3 rank, Balance 3 ranks
Benefit: Choose a martial weapon. You may treat it as a tripping weapon, able to be dropped to avoid a counter-trip.

Fencing Expertise
You rapier very well.
Prereq: BAB +4, Sleight of Hand 2 ranks, Bluff 4 ranks
Benefit: When wielding a Rapier, you gain a +2 on checks to disarm (as well as those to resist being disarmed if your attempt fails) and a +2 circumstance bonus to bluff checks to feint in combat.

Hidden Blade Focus
You are very adept with the use of a particular style of hidden blade.
Prereq: Bab +5, Sleight of Hand 4 ranks
Benefit: Choose a type of hidden blade, as described in Complete Scoundrel. You do not take the -2 penalty on attack rolls normally associated with its use.

Hidden Blade Specialization
You have mastered the use of a specific type of hidden blade.
Prereq: Hidden Blade Focus, Sleight of Hand 5 ranks
Benefit: Once per encounter, you may loose your Hidden Blade as a Swift Action instead of a Move Action. Additionally, you may choose to replace the DC 15 Search check to locate your hidden blade with a Search check opposed by your Sleight of Hand check.


----

Hopefully, this gives an idea of the breadth of ideas, here. The most basic use is to simply add PHB weapon qualities (tripping, disarming, set against a charge, etc) to weapons they normally don't belong on. But some of them (like the Fencing one) are ripped straight from exotic weapon conditions in other books. Tell me what you think of mine if you want. But more importantly, post your own!

EdroGrimshell
2011-03-03, 01:23 PM
Okay, i'll say this now to get it out of my system, this. is. PERFECT!!

I had an idea for a campaign quite some time ago that would really benefit from this system. Essentially it's a campaign with no magic. Everything relies on exceptional skill (combat, craftsmanship, even bargaining with extraplanar beings). And this complements the skill tricks perfectly.

I salute you sir :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I'll see if i can add to your own once i get back from work but this has given some inspiration for a new campaign.

Realms of Chaos
2011-03-03, 01:40 PM
The question, then, is how many skill points each of these things cost.

If it costs 1 skill point, the benefits of these abilities seem to exceed the costs. If it costs 2 like a skill trick, however, you end up punnishing low-skill combatants like fighters. also, are these tricks limited to 1 per 2 levels like normal skill tricks or can you have any number?

EdroGrimshell
2011-03-03, 01:43 PM
The question, then, is how many skill points each of these things cost.

If it costs 1 skill point, the benefits of these abilities seem to exceed the costs. If it costs 2 like a skill trick, however, you end up punnishing low-skill combatants like fighters. also, are these tricks limited to 1 per 2 levels like normal skill tricks or can you have any number?

What about a different resource? Something like Prowess from Fax's d20 Rebirth project perhaps?

blackjack217
2011-03-03, 01:50 PM
Will any of these make sword and board viable?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-03-03, 01:58 PM
What about a different resource? Something like Prowess from Fax's d20 Rebirth project perhaps?

I think this would be what's needed. I'd hate to impose what's basically a skill tax on the poor skill-less Fighter. The last thing we need is the Rogue becoming the best weapon-master.

Realms of Chaos
2011-03-03, 06:29 PM
If the idea is to have more martial characters get more of these (by some margin) without giving them all out at 1st level and front-loading the system, how about something like this...

For each of the following specifications that describes you, you gain one proficiency point. At 1st level and each odd level thereafter, you may spend one proficiency point to gain a proficiency trick you meet all prerequisites for.

You get a point if...
You possess levels in a class with medium BAB
You possess levels in a class with full BAB*
You possess proficiency with one or more simple weapons
You possess proficiency with one or more martial weapons
You possess proficiency with one or more exotic weapons
You possess proficiency with light armor.
You possess proficiency with medium armor.
You possess proficiency with heavy armor.
You possess proficiency with shields
You possess proficiency with tower shields.

*If you possess levels in a class with full BAB, you gain the point for possessing medium BAB as well (unless you already possessed that point).

In this way, the people with more proficiencies can do more stuff with their weapons, proficiency feats grant additional benefits, and fighters in particular are given something to do with their odd levels.

Mulletmanalive
2011-03-03, 06:45 PM
perhaps tacking some points onto some of the more pointless feats out there!

Weapon Focus and friends seem like good candidates...

I'm partly going on the wierd multiweapon training that made my old sensei so adaptable while being by far best at staff and hanbo.

Or you could just treat them as unlockable abilities for meeting the minimums and gaining a level? Or just say you can have one per 2 BAB and allow the fighter bonus ones on dead levels?

Pechvarry
2011-03-04, 01:28 AM
2 skill points per. I don't see how any of them are too powerful at 2 skill points, though they may nullify some weak feats. This is, at it's core, a way to make any weapon "exotic" in just how many small perks it can provide. Thus, it's intended to step on the toes of at least one feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency). If some of them seem too weak for the investment, help me work on the reqs to come to a balance point where it's worth it.

I realize Fighters and other low-skilled combatants suffer. This is why I wanted all of them to have BAB reqs, as well as low skill rank reqs relative to BAB. For example, if something has a req of BAB +3, it should have, at most, 3 ranks required in (a) skill(s). This means a Fighter could get it at level 3 with cross-class ranks, while a rogue would have to wait until level 4.

Really though, as I mentioned in the OP, it's worth making other considerations if you implement this. On the one hand, I'm kinda against a separate resource than skill points, as Fax Celestis and others have done it better. Their systems are well suited to implement many of these ideas as just parts of their scaling feats or what-have-you and they're welcome to do so. But for me, I want the core 3.5 experience, and I want to tap the skill system further.

That said, here comes the other hand: Something like this does work best with some systemic homebrew. In addition to simple + skill points (spellcasters are the only 2+int classes for my house rules), giving "bonus proficiency trick" as a class feature is easy enough. I'd probably give Fighters 9 of these, Paladins 4ish, and monks 10 or so (but all skill tricks instead of just proficiency tricks).

Oh, that reminds me. One of the biggest reasons I originally categorized it as a new type of proficiency trick was because I didn't want them to count against your limit for normal skill tricks. Though perhaps they should have a limit of their own.

All input welcome.

DaTedinator
2011-03-04, 10:23 AM
perhaps tacking some points onto some of the more pointless feats out there!

That seems like a great idea. Make the default way of purchasing them skill points, sure, but then whenever anyone takes weapon focus in a weapon, they get a proficiency trick or two with that weapon. Whenever they take a feat that gives a bonus to two skills (or skill focus), give them a proficiency trick that requires one of those skills. That's actually not a bad idea to do for skill tricks, either, now that I think about it.

lightningcat
2011-03-04, 10:41 AM
As for a limit, make it half your BAB. So fighters and such can have a higher number of them to play with. The skill monkeys may have the points, but they would have a lower limit for how many of these tricks they can have.

Pechvarry
2011-03-04, 12:24 PM
That seems like a great idea. Make the default way of purchasing them skill points, sure, but then whenever anyone takes weapon focus in a weapon, they get a proficiency trick or two with that weapon. Whenever they take a feat that gives a bonus to two skills (or skill focus), give them a proficiency trick that requires one of those skills. That's actually not a bad idea to do for skill tricks, either, now that I think about it.

This could be really cool. I approve. Tossing this onto pretty much any of those lackluster weapon feats would go a long way, and also encourages me to want to make higher powered tricks (those with BAB reqs of 8+, 14+, etc), though I'm uncertain how to go about said tricks.


As for a limit, make it half your BAB. So fighters and such can have a higher number of them to play with. The skill monkeys may have the points, but they would have a lower limit for how many of these tricks they can have.

I think I'll implement something like this. For now, I think I'll go BAB/2 round UP (so you can get one at BAB 1; though it means you'll always get access to new ones at odd BABs), but I'm wondering if simply "BAB=proficiency trick limit" wouldn't be so bad.

EDIT: "purchasing proficiency tricks" section added to OP.