PDA

View Full Version : Lurk that doesn't suck.



Beheld
2011-03-05, 11:32 PM
Deleted for reasons I will not say.

Realms of Chaos
2011-03-06, 12:19 PM
I am a bit confused by this entire project.
1. Why does the lurk suck? Do you think it's bad because its not a high tier class, because you dislike psionics, because you think it's too much like a rogue, or what? I've heard people say that spellthieves, ninjas, marshals, healers, scouts, monks, fighters, samurai, and swashbuckers (after 4th level) suck but I've never (or very rarely) heard this about the lurk.
2. I can kind of see why you increased the skill points if you thought that should be what lurks do but why did you take so many skills away from their former class list? This seems like barely enough to justify 6 + Int modifier, let alone the maximum allotment that base classes can have.
3. Why did you get rid of psionics? Getting one power per level like the lurk ensured a total lack of dead levels and allowed you to grow with each level. Also, it seems odd that you give this class so few power points and then make 8 different powers reliant upon spending them. In terms of raw power, the 15 powers/spells that you gave this class are actually weaker than the lurk's 20 powers, not to mention that they are a lot less flexible.
4. Why did you select the powers that you did? Trace teleport and divert teleport seem utterly unrelated to what a lurk does, you don't actually use any unique psionic powers that would help a lurk be sneaky (such as concealing amorpha, cloud mind, false sensory input, etc.), and you include so many spells and psionic powers imitating spells that this class might as well not be psionic in the first place.
5. Why did you remove all of the features of the lurk? Without sneak attacking and with only a fixed selection of non-damaging powers, this class really lack any way to kill foes until you start blowing them to pieces with your augments. The loss of evasion and slippery mind, very much roguish class features, were also abandoned without any discernible reason.
6. In regards to True Mental Master, 1) you probably intended to type up superior invisibility (not superior see invisibility, which doesn't exist), 2) this makes it truly impossible to harm foes, 3) why would anybody want this ability?
7. Have you actually read the Lurk in detail? The class title implies that you are trying to fix it, the presence of augments and psionics shows that you have a pretty good idea of what it does, and it is very possible that your party has a very separate set of priorities than the ones that I have played with. On the other hand, the fix that I see here seems as though it could have been made without any more knowledge about the lurk other than that it being a psionic skill monkey with augments. If you are trying to make yourself a version of the lurk for play in your group from scratch, I applaud your effort. If not and this is a conscious effort to reform the lurk into something else (which is also quite possible), I'd be curious to here your rationale behind the changes. :smallsmile:

Beheld
2011-03-06, 09:04 PM
So first off, this isn't my class, so I referred the creator here, and he had some comments, I will give my own where I think they are appropriate.


1. Why does the lurk suck? Do you think it's bad because its not a high tier class, because you dislike psionics, because you think it's too much like a rogue, or what? I've heard people say that spellthieves, ninjas, marshals, healers, scouts, monks, fighters, samurai, and swashbuckers (after 4th level) suck but I've never (or very rarely) heard this about the lurk.

Kaelik: The Lurk "sucks" because it is not up to snuff in the SGT, and doesn't have anything unique or worthwhile to contribute to a game, that makes it worth ever choosing instead of a Rogue or a Psion, depending on what you want. This is usually the same reason Monks/Scouts/Fighters/Samurai/Healers/Marshals/Ninjas and Spellthieves suck. This class is meant to balance against a different game, one in which the Monk/Fighter/Samurai/Marshal/Ninja/Healer have already been redesigned to be real party members.


2. I can kind of see why you increased the skill points if you thought that should be what lurks do but why did you take so many skills away from their former class list? This seems like barely enough to justify 6 + Int modifier, let alone the maximum allotment that base classes can have.

Kaelik: I made the class without comapring it specifically to the Lurk in Complete Psi at every stage. When I make a class, I go through the class skill list looking for stuff that I think is good or thematic. I might reconsider the list, but that's how I made it, with no consideration for what the old Lurk had.


3. Why did you get rid of psionics? Getting one power per level like the lurk ensured a total lack of dead levels and allowed you to grow with each level. Also, it seems odd that you give this class so few power points and then make 8 different powers reliant upon spending them. In terms of raw power, the 15 powers/spells that you gave this class are actually weaker than the lurk's 20 powers, not to mention that they are a lot less flexible.

Kaelik: Most Lurk powers are dead levels. I got rid of the psionics because they are terrible, they aren't a good system, and what they do offer, is mostly not even very good for the Lurk. I made the class giving it the utility it needs, and abilities instead of powers that buff.

The powers are all activated at the cost of a single power point, except invis which is free, this Lurk has much more in the way of uses per day than a standard Lurk, so it doesn't have very few power points. I"m sure that the Lurks 20 powers fewer times a day would be more powerful if the purpose of the powers was offense. But since he has Augments for that, this class only uses powers for utility, minor combat control.


4. Why did you select the powers that you did? Trace teleport and divert teleport seem utterly unrelated to what a lurk does, you don't actually use any unique psionic powers that would help a lurk be sneaky (such as concealing amorpha, cloud mind, false sensory input, etc.), and you include so many spells and psionic powers imitating spells that this class might as well not be psionic in the first place.

Kaelik: Manipulating people attempting to run away from you is a pretty big part of being a Psionic Assassin, and adds late game bunch that is really needed for dealing with high level mobility that the Lurk mostly doesn't get access to.


5. Why did you remove all of the features of the lurk? Without sneak attacking and with only a fixed selection of non-damaging powers, this class really lack any way to kill foes until you start blowing them to pieces with your augments. The loss of evasion and slippery mind, very much roguish class features, were also abandoned without any discernible reason.

Kaelik: I didn't remove all the class features of the Lurk. I made a Lurk that didn't have those features. The class doesn't lack ways to kill foes, ignoring the fact that the Complete Psi Lurk doesn't have access to damaging powers, and Sneak Attack is seriously 3d6 damage over 20 levels, and therefore totally worthless, this Lurk has infinite use of Augments that it gets at level 1. It starts exploding people with Augments at level 1, when it can do Dex damage to kill them, or at level 3 when it can take away their standard actions and therefore wins at life.

There is no reason to abandon Evasion and Slippery Mind however, Evasion will be added back in level 4, but Slippery Mind is not a very good class feature, being more book keeping, and the Comp Psi Lurk gets it at level 15, five levels after this Lurk gets Mindblank.

Me: Evasion added in this class too. I want to reiterate, because I don't think Kaelik addressed it enough. The Lurk in Complete Psionic gets 1d6 SA at level 1, then gets his 2d6 at level 7, then gets 3d6 at level 12, then 4d6 at level 17. (Kaelik is wrong about this, he said 3d6 over 20.) That is nothing. A level 1 Halfling Rogue can have 2d6, the same amount as a level 7 Lurk, and at level 5, he will have the SA of a level 17 Lurk. SA has never been a big deal for Lurks.


6. In regards to True Mental Master, 1) you probably intended to type up superior invisibility (not superior see invisibility, which doesn't exist), 2) this makes it truly impossible to harm foes, 3) why would anybody want this ability?

Kaelik: Because level 20 doesn't matter. Thanks for the type correction.

Me: Kaelik comes from a forum that believes most people never play at level 20, so level 20 Capstones can be almost anything without ever mattering. In this case, I assume the whole point is "character retirement" because obviously playing this character in the traditional manner isn't likely to happen.

Though actually, it appears he could still run around punching people for his Augments, and thus, would still be absurdly awesome.


7. Have you actually read the Lurk in detail? The class title implies that you are trying to fix it, the presence of augments and psionics shows that you have a pretty good idea of what it does, and it is very possible that your party has a very separate set of priorities than the ones that I have played with. On the other hand, the fix that I see here seems as though it could have been made without any more knowledge about the lurk other than that it being a psionic skill monkey with augments. If you are trying to make yourself a version of the lurk for play in your group from scratch, I applaud your effort. If not and this is a conscious effort to reform the lurk into something else (which is also quite possible), I'd be curious to here your rationale behind the changes. :smallsmile:

Kaelik: This Lurk is for use in my group, where my group is anyone who plays at Wizard level, or uses Tome Material. It is of course being reformed from a purposeless block of text that doesn't do anything, to something that is actually worth playing. Since the Comp Psi Lurk is generically not good at anything, a certain amount of change in direction is going to occur.

Realms of Chaos
2011-03-06, 11:46 PM
So first off, this isn't my class, so I referred the creator here, and he had some comments, I will give my own where I think they are appropriate.

Understood.




Kaelik: The Lurk "sucks" because it is not up to snuff in the SGT, and doesn't have anything unique or worthwhile to contribute to a game, that makes it worth ever choosing instead of a Rogue or a Psion, depending on what you want. This is usually the same reason Monks/Scouts/Fighters/Samurai/Healers/Marshals/Ninjas and Spellthieves suck. This class is meant to balance against a different game, one in which the Monk/Fighter/Samurai/Marshal/Ninja/Healer have already been redesigned to be real party members.

This is a matter of opinion but again, I've always heard people describe the Lurk class as the good class from complete psionic and not just in a relative manner. *shrugs*

Edit: Other than erudite, of course.


Kaelik: I made the class without comapring it specifically to the Lurk in Complete Psi at every stage. When I make a class, I go through the class skill list looking for stuff that I think is good or thematic. I might reconsider the list, but that's how I made it, with no consideration for what the old Lurk had.

So you made a class that you are calling a lurk but that doesn't occupy the same thematic space and didn't use the lurk as a starting point? Why are you even bothering to call this a lurk? Even if it's a good name, it's kind of confusing.


Kaelik: Most Lurk powers are dead levels. I got rid of the psionics because they are terrible, they aren't a good system, and what they do offer, is mostly not even very good for the Lurk. I made the class giving it the utility it needs, and abilities instead of powers that buff.

I can understand hating psionics (I'm not too much of a fan myself) but calling it a terrible system seems a bit... extreme. Most people consider psionics to be more balanced than plain old spellcasters. Again, though, this is just a matter of opinion.

What I have a harder time believing is that you think that none of a lurk's powers are good other than the ones you specifically gave it. Other than divert teleport, shatter mindblank, and the spells you gave it (and this guy has at least four suitable replacements for invisibility), the lurk can select pretty much everything you gave it. Furthermore, there are some very good powers that you chose not to give the lurk.

How is Temporal Acceleration, for example, weak? How about psionic true seeing? psionic freedom of movement? psionic contingency? Wall of Ectoplasm (giant wall to block the way)? Psionic Identify? Detect Hostile Intent? Even Know Direction and Location can be pretty darn useful.
You've given this class a smaller selection of set abilities (most of which it could already select) and take away the ability to actually augment them and you call this thing more powerful? I'm not getting your logic here. If using abilities more times per day was the only thing that mattered, the warlock would be the most powerful class in existence. :smallconfused:

Edit: Ah, now I see that this thing is more powerful as it can spam two different save-or-die effects targeting different saving throws that nothing has immunity to with every single attacks it makes or to couple a single save-or-die targeting the opponent's worst save with the criting augment to ensure that you hit. That is indeed more powerful but not in a way that I tend to consider balanced (but you are using the Tome series so go nuts :smalltongue:).


The powers are all activated at the cost of a single power point, except invis which is free, this Lurk has much more in the way of uses per day than a standard Lurk, so it doesn't have very few power points. I"m sure that the Lurks 20 powers fewer times a day would be more powerful if the purpose of the powers was offense. But since he has Augments for that, this class only uses powers for utility, minor combat control.

Not quite true. The lurk would gain more uses per day of those precognition powers as they only cost 1 pp anyway.


Kaelik: Manipulating people attempting to run away from you is a pretty big part of being a Psionic Assassin, and adds late game bunch that is really needed for dealing with high level mobility that the Lurk mostly doesn't get access to.

Actually, the Lurk DOES get this to some degree. I just went back to check the Lurk power list and it does get trace (though not divert) teleport and one of its lurk augments (synaptic disconnect) would indeed stop the threat of at will greater teleport SLAs (which is often the root of the problem).


Kaelik: I didn't remove all the class features of the Lurk. I made a Lurk that didn't have those features. The class doesn't lack ways to kill foes, ignoring the fact that the Complete Psi Lurk doesn't have access to damaging powers, and Sneak Attack is seriously 3d6 damage over 20 levels, and therefore totally worthless, this Lurk has infinite use of Augments that it gets at level 1. It starts exploding people with Augments at level 1, when it can do Dex damage to kill them, or at level 3 when it can take away their standard actions and therefore wins at life.

Except that the original lurk gets an augment that increases sneak attack damage at 1st level, raising the capacity to 3d6 sneak attack damage by level 2. It's clear to me now that this class wasn't intended to actually be dealing damage but instead relies on shoving a combination of multiple save-or-sucks down an opponents throat each round.


There is no reason to abandon Evasion and Slippery Mind however, Evasion will be added back in level 4, but Slippery Mind is not a very good class feature, being more book keeping, and the Comp Psi Lurk gets it at level 15, five levels after this Lurk gets Mindblank.

Fair Enough. Also, have you considered perhaps inserting the Initiative bonus back to this guy at level 12 to continue the pattern of psionic focus bonuses.


Me: Evasion added in this class too. I want to reiterate, because I don't think Kaelik addressed it enough. The Lurk in Complete Psionic gets 1d6 SA at level 1, then gets his 2d6 at level 7, then gets 3d6 at level 12, then 4d6 at level 17. (Kaelik is wrong about this, he said 3d6 over 20.) That is nothing. A level 1 Halfling Rogue can have 2d6, the same amount as a level 7 Lurk, and at level 5, he will have the SA of a level 17 Lurk. SA has never been a big deal for Lurks.

Except when the lurk uses their Additional Sneak Attack augment and deals up to 15d6 damage. Or hey, if the lurk can't get a sneak attack (even though they can deny anybody their Dex bonus to AC with another augment and even sneak attack undead and constructs), they can go with Solid Strike for up to +40 damage without any strings attached or just go with planar attack for up to 22d6 damage against good or evil foes.

While it's true that the lurk has limits on augmentations per day, sneak attack for lurks actually is a pretty big deal and simply removing the daily limits as you have seems to be an easier fix than simply remaking the entire class from scratch (especially as the normal lurks can apply 3 augments to a single attack).


Kaelik: Because level 20 doesn't matter. Thanks for the type correction.

Me: Kaelik comes from a forum that believes most people never play at level 20, so level 20 Capstones can be almost anything without ever mattering. In this case, I assume the whole point is "character retirement" because obviously playing this character in the traditional manner isn't likely to happen.

Though actually, it appears he could still run around punching people for his Augments, and thus, would still be absurdly awesome.

A matter of opinion but as it's made for your group, have fun with it, I suppose.




Kaelik: This Lurk is for use in my group, where my group is anyone who plays at Wizard level, or uses Tome Material. It is of course being reformed from a purposeless block of text that doesn't do anything, to something that is actually worth playing. Since the Comp Psi Lurk is generically not good at anything, a certain amount of change in direction is going to occur.

I'd still argue that you are keeping lurks away from some of the better powers on their list and that their (admittedly wacky) limitation of uses per day is the only thing that kept back their augmentations.

Also, have you considered making the penalty from mind static increase over time. It seems kind of odd to start with a -2 penalty at 1st level (when most things get critical class features) and do nothing fancy with it.

Edit: though I understand where most of your augments are coming from, you have to admit that laser is pretty silly. Seeing as the damage is coming from that weapon that you wield, it becomes possible to shoot a "club-laser", a "greatsword-laser", or even a "fist-laser". While these ideas are awesome in some sense of the term, they strike me as pretty darn goofy. :smalltongue:

Edit Edit: Sorry if my earlier commentary kind of put you on the spot. I take pride in critiquing homebrew and I've never caught somebody off-guard before. I'm also sorry for doing so before I knew the circumstances behind this class. :smallsmile:

Beheld
2011-03-07, 08:02 PM
This is a matter of opinion but again, I've always heard people describe the Lurk class as the good class from complete psionic and not just in a relative manner. *shrugs*

Yeah... See, I can't imagine anyone ever playing a Lurk ever, because there is literally nothing it does well enough to matter.


So you made a class that you are calling a lurk but that doesn't occupy the same thematic space and didn't use the lurk as a starting point? Why are you even bothering to call this a lurk? Even if it's a good name, it's kind of confusing.

I'm pretty sure "Psionic Stealth Assassin who manifests abilities on their weapon" is the exact same thematic space. And no one uses the PHB Monk for a starting point for a fix either.


I can understand hating psionics (I'm not too much of a fan myself) but calling it a terrible system seems a bit... extreme. Most people consider psionics to be more balanced than plain old spellcasters. Again, though, this is just a matter of opinion.

Kaelik: People consider it more balanced because they are comparing the Psychic Warrior to the Psion and the Fighter to the Wizard. Yes, Wizards are more powerful than Psions, precisely because they have a whole bunch of powers and abilities that Psions never see. And yes, Psychic Warriors are more powerful than Fighters, because so is an Animated Brick. But that has nothing to with the system, and everything to do with the abilities granted to each class. The system itself is just a poorly thought out mana system, with no particular points in it's favor.


What I have a harder time believing is that you think that none of a lurk's powers are good other than the ones you specifically gave it. Other than divert teleport, shatter mindblank, and the spells you gave it (and this guy has at least four suitable replacements for invisibility), the lurk can select pretty much everything you gave it. Furthermore, there are some very good powers that you chose not to give the lurk.

Kaelik: None of the Lurks powers are good for offense. Many of them are good for utility, but it's a lot better to give a class the utility you want it to have then force a player to first sort through a bunch of trash, in order to then select the good stuff, in order to then have less utility than the class I built, because they are slaved to a crappy system.


How is Temporal Acceleration, for example, weak? How about psionic true seeing? psionic freedom of movement? psionic contingency? Wall of Ectoplasm (giant wall to block the way)? Psionic Identify? Detect Hostile Intent? Even Know Direction and Location can be pretty darn useful.

Kaelik: Because Temporal Acceleration comes in at level 15, and you have nothing to do during those actions. Because True Seeing is fine, except when it's not active, which will be most of the time, because you are using Psionics. Because Freedom of Movement is good, when active, but it won't be. Because Contingency is cool, but not that big a deal, Because Wall of Ectoplasm is useful, but not actually anything to do with a Lurk. All of those are great in theory, but when you have to spend 100 power points just to use your offensive abilities, all your utility suffers. As for including them in the class... Once again, I have to decide what to put in and what not, and most of that stuff doesn't add enough to put in.

Also, they do get some utility you probably didn't notice in the form or Planar Travel (for others as well) and Gust of Wind.


You've given this class a smaller selection of set abilities (most of which it could already select) and take away the ability to actually augment them and you call this thing more powerful? I'm not getting your logic here. If using abilities more times per day was the only thing that mattered, the warlock would be the most powerful class in existence.

Kaelik: They can augment them. Fully. Every time they use them. I agree it has slightly less utility, though more uses per day, than a Lurk focused on utility. But so what, this class actually has an offense too at the same time.


Edit: Ah, now I see that this thing is more powerful as it can spam two different save-or-die effects targeting different saving throws that nothing has immunity to with every single attacks it makes or to couple a single save-or-die targeting the opponent's worst save with the criting augment to ensure that you hit. That is indeed more powerful but not in a way that I tend to consider balanced.

Kaelik: I'm not sure where you come up with that. The only Save or Die is level 13 at the earliest. So it's basically an Implosion on someone you hit the AC of first. Really not that big a deal.


Not quite true. The lurk would gain more uses per day of those precognition powers as they only cost 1 pp anyway.

Kaelik: But the Lurk would not gain more uses of fully augmented Precognition powers, since at, for example, level 4, My Lurk would get five uses for five five power points, and the Comp Psi Lurk would get five uses for 4pp each, for 20 total PP, which is probably either more than he has, or slightly less than his maximum. To say nothing of having only four powers at this level, and having spent 3 powers known on these three powers. And even at level 9, it would be 5 PP to have fully augmented Precognition five times for this Lurk, but would cost 9pp each, for 45 total PP, to get those same five uses, for Comp Psi, which is double his by level PP, though probably still quite doable with high Int. And level 9 is probably the worst level for precognitive use for this Lurk vs Comp Psi Lurk.


Actually, the Lurk DOES get this to some degree. I just went back to check the Lurk power list and it does get trace (though not divert) teleport and one of its lurk augments (synaptic disconnect) would indeed stop the threat of at will greater teleport SLAs (which is often the root of the problem).

Kaelik: I am aware that the Comp Psi gets Trace and Divert Teleport, since I put them in after reading through the Lurk Powers for good utility to add.


Except that the original lurk gets an augment that increases sneak attack damage at 1st level, raising the capacity to 3d6 sneak attack damage by level 2.

Kaelik: A few times a day, at the cost of tons of PP that are better spent on other things.


Fair Enough. Also, have you considered perhaps inserting the Initiative bonus back to this guy at level 12 to continue the pattern of psionic focus bonuses.

Kaelik: Maybe.


Except when the lurk uses their Additional Sneak Attack augment and deals up to 15d6 damage. Or hey, if the lurk can't get a sneak attack (even though they can deny anybody their Dex bonus to AC with another augment and even sneak attack undead and constructs), they can go with Solid Strike for up to +40 damage without any strings attached or just go with planar attack for up to 22d6 damage against good or evil foes.

Kaelik: Which comes very few times a day at the cost of large chunks of PP.


While it's true that the lurk has limits on augmentations per day, sneak attack for lurks actually is a pretty big deal and simply removing the daily limits as you have seems to be an easier fix than simply remaking the entire class from scratch (especially as the normal lurks can apply 3 augments to a single attack).

Kaelik: Except that the Lurk A) Relies on doing less damage than a Rogue a few times a day as a mechanic, and it's kinda pointless, since lots of people do damage with weapons already, if someone was going to do damage with weapons, it should be significant. B) Is based on the PP mechanic, and therefore, terrible and takes away from his utility every time he does it, so I'd have to redesign the class anyway, so I might as well just do it right.


A matter of opinion but as it's made for your group, have fun with it, I suppose.

Kaelik: Apparently you didn't read my entire statement. My group was metaphorical, and included everyone who plays at Wizard level.


I'd still argue that you are keeping lurks away from some of the better powers on their list and that their (admittedly wacky) limitation of uses per day is the only thing that kept back their augmentations.

Kaelik: And you know, the fact that it's based on PP.


Also, have you considered making the penalty from mind static increase over time. It seems kind of odd to start with a -2 penalty at 1st level (when most things get critical class features) and do nothing fancy with it.

Kaelik: Will look at expanding that.


Edit: though I understand where most of your augments are coming from, you have to admit that laser is pretty silly. Seeing as the damage is coming from that weapon that you wield, it becomes possible to shoot a "club-laser", a "greatsword-laser", or even a "fist-laser". While these ideas are awesome in some sense of the term, they strike me as pretty darn goofy.

Kaelik: Check out Explosive. It's a lazer, in practice, the weapon used has almost no effect that can't be rationalized as "The Weapon is used as a mental focus for the laser, and so the laser has some features of the weapon."


Edit Edit: Sorry if my earlier commentary kind of put you on the spot. I take pride in critiquing homebrew and I've never caught somebody off-guard before. I'm also sorry for doing so before I knew the circumstances behind this class. :smallsmile:

Kaelik: Not sure what you mean by that, I did not feel on the spot, or feel off guard.

But as a favor to me, could you direct any questions for me/why I did X with the class to the thread I see linked in the OP. I don't really like using a go between. I've asked Beheld to not refer anything else from this thread to me.