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hoff
2011-03-07, 04:46 PM
I was looking for some good feats for artful dodger Rogue, I know people might say that Brutal Scroundel is better but I wanted to make an artful one with lots of mobility in mind.

Right now I'm thinking of making a Drow with Reckless Scramble (when a power lets you shift you can instead move with +2 bonus square) and Shadowslip (when using your cloud of darkness you can shift 2 squares as a free action) feats. So I could move 4 squares when using cloud of darkness and since it blinds the enemy I wouldn't take an attack of oportunity. Also getting powers that allows me to shift. Make Str my dump stat and getting everything on Dex and Cha. With Artful Dodger bonus to AC should I get feats that improve it?

We will start at level 1 but I would like to know what you guys think about this build and what to make out of it at higher levels.

mobdrazhar
2011-03-07, 05:29 PM
if you're going for a mobility drow build i would suggest going cunning sneak instead. for artful dodger i would suggest taking half elf due to the dex\cha bonus. or if you want mobility be eladrin for the Feystep power.

there is also a feat that lets your shift 1 square when you stand up from prone.

Mando Knight
2011-03-07, 05:32 PM
if you're going for a mobility drow build i would suggest going cunning sneak instead. for artful dodger i would suggest taking half elf due to the dex\cha bonus.

What is this.

Half Elves grant Con/Cha. Drow grant Dex/Cha. If you're allowing the Essentials updates, then Half Elves are Con/(Wis or Cha), and Drow are Dex/(Cha or Wis).

mobdrazhar
2011-03-07, 05:50 PM
gah.... getting myself confussed... my bad... not in front of my books atm... sorry

Vknight
2011-03-07, 05:52 PM
How are you doing this at a atm?

Nu
2011-03-07, 06:18 PM
I was looking for some good feats for artful dodger Rogue, I know people might say that Brutal Scroundel is better but I wanted to make an artful one with lots of mobility in mind.

Right now I'm thinking of making a Drow with Reckless Scramble (when a power lets you shift you can instead move with +2 bonus square) and Shadowslip (when using your cloud of darkness you can shift 2 squares as a free action) feats. So I could move 4 squares when using cloud of darkness and since it blinds the enemy I wouldn't take an attack of oportunity. Also getting powers that allows me to shift. Make Str my dump stat and getting everything on Dex and Cha. With Artful Dodger bonus to AC should I get feats that improve it?

We will start at level 1 but I would like to know what you guys think about this build and what to make out of it at higher levels.

Seems like it'd be more beneficial to dump Int or Wis than Str (Athletics is a good skill for rogues that want mobility). Are you interested in going for a throwing-dagger build, or a hand-crossbow build? I imagine hand-crossbow might be more attractive, given you are drow (and thus qualify for the ruthless hunter feat), and you'd qualify for weapon-related feats easier for ranged weapons than melee with low strength (though this is mostly only a concern if you believe the campaign will reach epic tier).

Consider a hand crossbow, with the ruthless hunter and two-fisted shooter feats (so dual-wielding hand crossbows). Hidden sniper is also a useful way for rogues to gain CA.

Vknight
2011-03-07, 06:27 PM
I agree to all of the ones just stated as I have a Drow built around that idea.

hoff
2011-03-07, 06:36 PM
Seems like it'd be more beneficial to dump Int or Wis than Str (Athletics is a good skill for rogues that want mobility). Are you interested in going for a throwing-dagger build, or a hand-crossbow build? I imagine hand-crossbow might be more attractive, given you are drow (and thus qualify for the ruthless hunter feat), and you'd qualify for weapon-related feats easier for ranged weapons than melee with low strength (though this is mostly only a concern if you believe the campaign will reach epic tier).



My stats are the following for now on level 1 without racial modifiers:
10 STR, 11 CON, 17 DEX, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA.
I plan to raise 1 CON and 1 DEX at level 4, afterwards all DEX/CHA




Consider a hand crossbow, with the ruthless hunter and two-fisted shooter feats (so dual-wielding hand crossbows). Hidden sniper is also a useful way for rogues to gain CA.
Interesting. But I'm not a huge fan of full ranged rogues, I find it hard to get combat advantage without flanking as an option. Is there any viable build with crossbow in one hand and daggar in the other?

Vknight
2011-03-07, 06:48 PM
There is the feat distant advantage giving you combat advantage when your allies flank the target.

mobdrazhar
2011-03-07, 07:09 PM
My stats are the following for now on level 1 without racial modifiers:
10 STR, 11 CON, 17 DEX, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA.
I plan to raise 1 CON and 1 DEX at level 4, afterwards all DEX/CHA




Interesting. But I'm not a huge fan of full ranged rogues, I find it hard to get combat advantage without flanking as an option. Is there any viable build with crossbow in one hand and daggar in the other?

two fisted shooter feat allows hand xbow in your off-hand and free reload

Nu
2011-03-07, 07:15 PM
two fisted shooter feat allows hand xbow in your off-hand and free reload

This is true, however, the free attacks from criticals would only trigger from attacks made with the dagger in the main hand (as I understand it). Master at arms becomes a superior feat to crossbow expertise if you plan to go this route, and you won't get as much benefit from ruthless hunter (and thus may choose to ignore it).

Keep in mind that you can only choose rogue weapon talent OR sharpshooter talent, and thus if you want to keep melee an option I would drop the hand crossbow and just rely on a throwing dagger. Drow does naturally lend itself to hand crossbows given the feat support, but it should be able to function as a dagger rogue just as well as any other.

hoff
2011-03-07, 08:18 PM
Is there any way to make a dagger have the high crit property? If so I think I might do Two-fisted shooter, Ruthless Hunter with a dagger in the main hand and a hand crossbow on the off hand. Also does the extra attack with the crossbow cause an attack of opportunity?

Also can someone clarify sneak attack for me? I can sneak attack only once per round right?

Also I don't like throwing daggers because they have a pretty crappy range. If I'm 5 squares away from my target I might as well do a melee attack.

MeeposFire
2011-03-07, 08:23 PM
Is there any way to make a dagger have the high crit property? If so I think I might do Two-fisted shooter, Ruthless Hunter with a dagger in the main hand and a hand crossbow on the off hand. Also does the extra attack with the crossbow cause an attack of opportunity?

Also can someone clarify sneak attack for me? I can sneak attack only once per round right?

Yes rogue weapon mastery though it is not worth it damage wise in general until epic (it is a paragon feat in martial power).

I believe there is a feat that allows hand crossbow attacks with no opportunity attacks though I do not remember if it was in the two fisted shooter feat or in a drow only feat.

Sneak attack was updated in essentials making it 1/turn (originally it was 1/round). This means you can sneak attack on your turn and then once on any other persons turn (such as from opportunity attacks or from your riposte from riposte strike).

hoff
2011-03-07, 08:50 PM
No magical item that grants high critical to a dagger?

MeeposFire
2011-03-07, 08:54 PM
high crit is very weak on a dagger since it is only 3d4 extra damage on a crit at epic levels so is there a reason you really need it and the feat won't work for you?

You could use a blood iron weapon from the adventurers vault which lets you deal your extra damage from a critical hit twice.

Vknight
2011-03-07, 09:03 PM
Ah BloodIron I remeber that before the Dm realized what I could do with that.

hoff
2011-03-07, 09:04 PM
Oh sorry I confused high crit with increase crit chance, so indeed high crit is pretty useless for a dagger. This is my first 4e campaign :confused:

Vknight
2011-03-07, 09:05 PM
Ah don't worry I almost did that myself.

tcrudisi
2011-03-07, 09:40 PM
My stats are the following for now on level 1 without racial modifiers:
10 STR, 11 CON, 17 DEX, 8 INT, 10 WIS, 16 CHA.
I plan to raise 1 CON and 1 DEX at level 4, afterwards all DEX/CHA

The optimizer in me is crying.

If nothing else, start with:
Str 10
Con 13
Dex 17
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 15

What happens? You lose 1 point of Charisma and gain 2 of Con. Then at level 4 and afterwards, you put your bonus points into Dex and Cha. At level 4, this means Cha 16 and Con 13 -- you basically net yourself a free point of Con, which will be useful at level 11 (or earlier if you want a feat that requires Con 13). The downside? Your Cha is odd at levels 1-4. But you obviously expect the game to last more than a couple of levels or you wouldn't have made your primary stat odd.

MeeposFire
2011-03-07, 09:53 PM
Oh sorry I confused high crit with increase crit chance, so indeed high crit is pretty useless for a dagger. This is my first 4e campaign :confused:

I was beginning to think that.

Jagged weapon from the adventures vault gives you improved crits (19-20).

Also the dagger master paragon path gives you 18-20 crits with rogue powers at level 11 which is awesome.

Vknight
2011-03-07, 09:55 PM
There is also an epic level feat which increases crit range by 1.

I also think there is one that lets you get an increase in Paragon.

MeeposFire
2011-03-07, 09:58 PM
There is also an epic level feat which increases crit range by 1.

I also think there is one that lets you get an increase in Paragon.

I think that Hoff is avoiding that feat since the character will likely not have the str score to get that feat.

In paragon I can only think of dagger master for non-item related crit boosts.

Vknight
2011-03-07, 10:01 PM
Yeah, I miss 'Keen' so much.
If only it still existed and could be combined with dagger master.

MeeposFire
2011-03-07, 10:04 PM
Yeah, I miss 'Keen' so much.
If only it still existed and could be combined with dagger master.

Jagged weapon is keen (at least essentially it is) and just like in 3.5 it does not stack with improved critical so it is par the course really.

Vknight
2011-03-07, 10:07 PM
Your not helping your making this worse.

MeeposFire
2011-03-07, 10:11 PM
Your not helping your making this worse.

I am not sure if you are being serious (and what you mean by that) or if this is some sarcasm that is just not translating due to the medium:smallconfused:.

Vknight
2011-03-07, 10:18 PM
Well you keep on bringing up more details which are depressing then when I try to have fond memories I'm jolted by more details.
So its part sarcasm part annoyance.

There I hope you get it now if not I can go more in depth.

MeeposFire
2011-03-07, 10:26 PM
Well I am sorry I jolted you out of some fond memories, I assure that my desire for accuracy was not intended as a means to cause anybody bad feelings.

Vknight
2011-03-07, 11:31 PM
No problem I understand you didn't mean to. Ah if only my players could handle 3.5, so we only play 4e

Curmudgeon
2011-03-08, 12:34 AM
To use Artful Dodger and focus on DEX and CHA you're going to get a lot of use out of at-will powers Deft Strike (mobility) and Sly Flourish (extra damage from CHA) and encounter power Positioning Strike (extra mobility for Artful Dodger). That establishes the minimum you're going to want starting at level 1. If you want to pick up some Rattling stuff (also from Martial Power, where Reckless Scramble is) because you're focusing on CHA, which helps with Intimidate, then you could also use Disheartening Strike. So that means your tradeoff is between the Human bonus at-will or Drow 1/encounter powers.

But I'm not a huge fan of full ranged rogues, I find it hard to get combat advantage without flanking as an option.
Admittedly, it's harder at lower levels to get CA for ranged attacks, but it is possible, and Artful Dodger is just the thing to help. Pick Positioning Strike to shift the target or Foxís Gambit to shift yourself. Take advantage of the terrain to move/shift so that you've got superior cover (like a corner + an enemy, a hill + a tree, & c.), or use some distraction just before combat starts so you only need ordinary cover to make your Stealth check to stay hidden. There are lots of ways your allies (especially spellcasters) can block line of sight. Of course you've got the 1/encounter "Create a Diversion to Hide" Bluff check to allow you to make a Stealth check, and if you go with your Drow preference Cloud of Darkness is excellent to set up CA for a ranged attack. Press the Advantage is a useful feat to take so that you'll retain combat advantage if you get a lucky roll (critical hit). When you get to level 3 get a Duelistís Weapon for the daily grant of CA.

When you get to level 6 pick Chameleon to let you hide again in combat. At level 7 pick From the Shadows, so that if you have any cover or concealment you can make a Stealth check. After that you're golden.

MeeposFire
2011-03-08, 12:43 AM
If you want to do the stealth all the time thing cunning sneak is by far better than artful dodger. Artful dodger is about getting defensive bonuses against opportunity attacks which implies being caught in melee. Cunning sneak does the stealth thing better since that is its shtick and intelligence is not really important for the build so you can still take cha boosts.

One great tactic for artful dodgers is to get into melee with a monster that is next to your defender friend and purposely provoking opportunity attacks. The monster will have a hard time hitting you due to cha mod to AC plus the mark penalty and the defender gets an extra attack. Good trade

Daftendirekt
2011-03-08, 01:24 AM
Here's (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22953353/Dirty_Deeds..._Done_Dirt_Cheap:_The_Rogues_Handboo k?pg=1) a very thorough handbook on 4e rogues, has solid advice for ANY rogue build, I'm sure you can find something for what you need in it.

hoff
2011-03-08, 09:46 AM
One great tactic for artful dodgers is to get into melee with a monster that is next to your defender friend and purposely provoking opportunity attacks. The monster will have a hard time hitting you due to cha mod to AC plus the mark penalty and the defender gets an extra attack. Good trade
I think I found a little loophole in the rules that have to do with this. If I have shadowslip (any shift I make becomes move with a +2 squares bonus) and the daily power Clever Riposte (do DEX mod damage each time you are attacked until the end of the encounter and can shift), if you are attacked you do DEX damage and move, by moving you grant an attack of opportunity and do DEX damage again and you can move again (and if the enemy can do more attacks of opportunity you can do this until he runs out), if the enemy is marked this can mean he can get even more attacks. Very neat yet not a game breaker.


Admittedly, it's harder at lower levels to get CA for ranged attacks, but it is possible, and Artful Dodger is just the thing to help. Pick Positioning Strike to shift the target or Foxís Gambit to shift yourself. Take advantage of the terrain to move/shift so that you've got superior cover (like a corner + an enemy, a hill + a tree, & c.), or use some distraction just before combat starts so you only need ordinary cover to make your Stealth check to stay hidden. There are lots of ways your allies (especially spellcasters) can block line of sight. Of course you've got the 1/encounter "Create a Diversion to Hide" Bluff check to allow you to make a Stealth check, and if you go with your Drow preference Cloud of Darkness is excellent to set up CA for a ranged attack. Press the Advantage is a useful feat to take so that you'll retain combat advantage if you get a lucky roll (critical hit). When you get to level 3 get a Duelistís Weapon for the daily grant of CA.
I was planing to take those powers, they are pretty good for my build. I'm going the dagger on main hand, hand crossbow on the offhand and Two-fisted shooter feat. That way I can do all the ranged stuff you said while also being able to charge in combat if needed.
As for At-wills I'm going Sly-flourish and Piercing strike. Deft strike doesn't look so good since it is a move 2, not shift 2. So you get only to move 2 squares and take a attack of opportunity anyway
For powers fox gambit looks like a life saver. Lets say you are charged by a big baddie, you do a fox gambit attack move 6 squares and you still have a move action free, if I have Clever Riposte activated the target will think twice before charging me. Very nice.

I don't want to be a shadow dancer though, although they are cool in paper all the tests required to be stealthed all the time are annoying plus sometimes there just isn't any cover (my DM doesn't use pre-made dungeons, when we face an encounter he simply gets his squared paper puts some walls). I also don't master all the rules so I would be kinda lost with all the stealth rolls/powers.



Thanks for the help everyone.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-08, 10:09 AM
I think I found a little loophole in the rules that have to do with this. If I have shadowslip (any shift I make becomes move with a +2 squares bonus) and the daily power Clever Riposte (do DEX mod damage each time you are attacked until the end of the encounter and can shift), if you are attacked you do DEX damage and move, by moving you grant an attack of opportunity and do DEX damage again and you can move again (and if the enemy can do more attacks of opportunity you can do this until he runs out),
That doesn't work, for several reasons.

For starters, pretty much nothing in the game can make multiple opportunity attacks during the same turn. Second, an enemy can always elect not to make an OA; just because you're provoking doesn't mean you're attacked. Third, shifting doesn't provoke OAs in the first place. And fourth, this way the enemy will do more damage to you than you to him, and he'll have more hit points than you do.


Deft strike doesn't look so good since it is a move 2, not shift 2. So you get only to move 2 squares and take a attack of opportunity anyway
It is nevertheless an excellent power for getting into the right melee spots. You should have a huge AC bonus against OAs anyway.



For powers fox gambit looks like a life saver. Lets say you are charged by a big baddie, you do a fox gambit attack move 6 squares and you still have a move action free, if I have Clever Riposte activated the target will think twice before charging me.
...how is that a life saver exactly? The enemy can most likely move + charge you (or use a ranged attack), and that riposte is not going to deter a big monster.



Question: The artul dodger bonus to AC and fox gambit bonus shift gets increased by 1/2 your level?
No. Only a few things go up by half your level, and this isn't one of them. Attack rolls, defenses, initiative, and skills. That's it; damage rolls don't get the bonus either.

Dimers
2011-03-08, 11:28 AM
Fair warning: the blind leading the blind, here.


Interesting. But I'm not a huge fan of full ranged rogues, I find it hard to get combat advantage without flanking as an option. Is there any viable build with crossbow in one hand and daggar in the other?

This is true, however, the free attacks from criticals would only trigger from attacks made with the dagger in the main hand (as I understand it).

That doesn't seem to be the case. The text says nothing about the source of the crit, and there's nothing on the feat in the errata/updates. Looks like you could keep up a steady stream of crossbow bolts as long as you keep critting, in fact. :smallsmile:


high crit is very weak on a dagger since it is only 3d4 extra damage on a crit at epic levels ...

Well, getting max damage on all your regular dice helps a little too. Yeah, I know, they're only d4s, but sometimes it makes all the difference you need.

hoff
2011-03-08, 12:12 PM
Third, shifting doesn't provoke OAs in the first place. And fourth, this way the enemy will do more damage to you than you to him, and he'll have more hit points than you do.
I agree with your other points but if you read the discussion before I was planning on taking Reckless Scramble (when a power lets you shift you can instead move with two more squares) so it would cause an attack of opportunity. For that reason I also want all the powers that allow me to shift too.


It is nevertheless an excellent power for getting into the right melee spots. You should have a huge AC bonus against OAs anyway.
Clever Strike (if an ally is adjacent to the target you have CA against him, melee only) seems better to me for melee.



...how is that a life saver exactly? The enemy can most likely move + charge you (or use a ranged attack), and that riposte is not going to deter a big monster.
You can use a extra move action for lots of things. Get behind the fighter, get to the shadows to stealth.



No. Only a few things go up by half your level, and this isn't one of them. Attack rolls, defenses, initiative, and skills. That's it; damage rolls don't get the bonus either.
Well this changes a lot of things for me, I thought that it would at least increase damage rolls. This makes Clever Riposte a lot less atractive.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-08, 12:52 PM
Clever Strike (if an ally is adjacent to the target you have CA against him, melee only) seems better to me for melee.
YMMV. I haven't taken any powers or feats that say "when X happens, you gain combat advantage" on either of my rogue characters, and both of them get their sneak attack damage 95% of the time anyway. All it takes is a bit of teamwork.


You can use a extra move action for lots of things. Get behind the fighter, get to the shadows to stealth.
Oh, I'm sure it's a useful power; however it isn't nearly as great as your post seems to claim. For example, Dazing Strike (followed by running away) also makes it hard for the enemy to attack you, and as an added bonus he can't OA anyone, grants CA to all your allies, and loses some of his actions next turn.

Mando Knight
2011-03-08, 01:10 PM
That doesn't work, for several reasons.

For starters, pretty much nothing in the game can make multiple opportunity attacks during the same turn. Second, an enemy can always elect not to make an OA; just because you're provoking doesn't mean you're attacked. Third, shifting doesn't provoke OAs in the first place. And fourth, this way the enemy will do more damage to you than you to him, and he'll have more hit points than you do.
You missed another big one: you can't take Opportunity or Immediate actions on your own turn.

MeeposFire
2011-03-08, 03:26 PM
:


Well, getting max damage on all your regular dice helps a little too. Yeah, I know, they're only d4s, but sometimes it makes all the difference you need.

Well maxing damage is nice but that 3d4 damage is from high crit which means it is not maximized since it is a crit only damage roll and you do not maximize crit only damage rolls.

Dimers
2011-03-08, 08:19 PM
Well maxing damage is nice but that 3d4 damage is from high crit which means it is not maximized since it is a crit only damage roll and you do not maximize crit only damage rolls.

Sorry, I meant maxing the dagger's own [W] value, not the extra dice. That adds about 1.5 damage per [W] in the base power, a small but helpful addition to the one to three dice granted by the high crit property.

Bugbeartrap
2011-03-08, 10:14 PM
Ah! This reminds me of my second 4e character. Back then, I made a artful dodger goblin. Now check out his racial power: at-will, immediate action shift when you dodge an attack. Slap on reckless scramble and your insane AoO bonus AC and dance around the battlefield! Your AoOs fuel your move which makes more AoOs! Madness!

mobdrazhar
2011-03-08, 10:16 PM
if you're going to go with the hand crossbow then i would suggest taking Prepratory Shot as it means that the turn after you use it you will have CA for either a melee OR ranged attack next and thus can sneak attack

hoff
2011-03-08, 10:44 PM
Ah! This reminds me of my second 4e character. Back then, I made a artful dodger goblin. Now check out his racial power: at-will, immediate action shift when you dodge an attack. Slap on reckless scramble and your insane AoO bonus AC and dance around the battlefield! Your AoOs fuel your move which makes more AoOs! Madness!
Wow that is actually a pretty good race for my build, but I don't like the idea of roleplaying a goblin though, goblins also have +2 DEX and +2 CHA. Tell me, did you have a decent AC to avoid all the AoOs or did you need to get something extra to help? If I roll human I was thinking in getting defensive mobility (+2 AC against AoOs) and later retrain it.


if you're going to go with the hand crossbow then i would suggest taking Prepratory Shot as it means that the turn after you use it you will have CA for either a melee OR ranged attack next and thus can sneak attack

That is a pretty disapointing power, especially for my low int build. Acrobatic strike is far more interesting. If I got it I would be dropping 1d4 to get 2d6 in a really restricted scenario.

I'm down to these 3 at-wills:
Sly flourish, Clever Strike and Acrobatic Strike.
Now I don't know if I roll human and get those three or stick to drow because of cloud of darkness. Ruthless hunter feat doesn't appeal much to me because I will not be wielding two hand-crossbows.

MeeposFire
2011-03-08, 10:49 PM
I like kobolds over goblins. Minor action shifting is awesome.

Blackfang108
2011-03-08, 11:15 PM
Wow that is actually a pretty good race for my build, but I don't like the idea of roleplaying a goblin though, goblins also have +2 DEX and +2 CHA. Tell me, did you have a decent AC to avoid all the AoOs or did you need to get something extra to help? If I roll human I was thinking in getting defensive mobility (+2 AC against AoOs) and later retrain it.


Your AC against AoOs, as an artful Dodger:
10+(.5L)+2(Leather armor)+DEX+CHA+Enhancement

We'll do my favorite spread, 16-16 for the main stats. Assume a DEX/CHA race (Drow, Halfling, Goblin, Kenku, ... there's at least one more.)
Both Dex and Cha are now 18, (+4)
10+2+4+4+(.5L)+(Enhancement)=20+(.5L)+(Enhancement )

A base of 20 AC at level 1, assuming you're not a halfling. (they get a +2 bonus v AoOs.)

Honestly, you really don't need to waste the feat on Defensive Mobility. Get a multiclass instead.
I suggest Pact Initiate (Fey-Pact For Eyebite), Sorceror (Extra damage 1/enc, or permanent resist 5 to a damage type), Haunting Shade (Stealth bonus + Darkvision, Dragon 387), or just about anything you qualify for, depending on what you're trying to do. (For stealth, I like Haunting Shade)

MeeposFire
2011-03-08, 11:26 PM
You are going quite low as well since your average rogue can start with an 18 with little loss (same OA AC but better normal AC). Defensive mobility would be overkill its true.

Nu
2011-03-09, 12:30 AM
Fair warning: the blind leading the blind, here.

That doesn't seem to be the case. The text says nothing about the source of the crit, and there's nothing on the feat in the errata/updates. Looks like you could keep up a steady stream of crossbow bolts as long as you keep critting, in fact. :smallsmile:



I always assumed when you made an attack with a weapon, it was considered to be your "main hand weapon" unless specifically stated otherwise. I don't have any rules quote to back that up, though. I wonder if anyone can find somewhere in the PHB or Rules Compendium that states it one way or the other?

Kurald Galain
2011-03-09, 04:44 AM
if you're going to go with the hand crossbow then i would suggest taking Prepratory Shot
I would recommend against that, it's not a very effective option.



Sly flourish, Clever Strike and Acrobatic Strike.
Now I don't know if I roll human and get those three or stick to drow because of cloud of darkness.
In terms of optimization, pick the Drow, hands down. Cloud of Darkness is extremely powerful for a rogue, and having a third at-will gets pretty pointless after level 2 or so.

Acrobatic Strike is better than Clever Strike: as long as there's an ally nearby, then AS would usually allow you to shift into flanking position and gain CA that way (plus it allows you to get away from enemies if needed). So I would recommend SF and AS, plus the awesome Cloud of Darkness.


I always assumed when you made an attack with a weapon, it was considered to be your "main hand weapon" unless specifically stated otherwise.
Incorrect. If you're wielding two weapons, then for every attack you make you can pick which weapon to use (except for powers that explicitly say otherwise). Says so in the PHB right before the class section.

MeeposFire
2011-03-09, 05:59 AM
Heroic effort is also really nice though and cloud of darkness does not play nice with your allies so I would say they are very close. In fact they are both rated sky blue in the rogue handbook. I think it comes down to whether you think you want that extra feat, flavor reasons, or if you want to use hand crossbows for sure for choosing between the two.

hoff
2011-03-09, 10:36 AM
I suggest Pact Initiate (Fey-Pact For Eyebite), Sorceror (Extra damage 1/enc, or permanent resist 5 to a damage type), Haunting Shade (Stealth bonus + Darkvision, Dragon 387), or just about anything you qualify for, depending on what you're trying to do. (For stealth, I like Haunting Shade)

Eyebite is "invisible until start of your next turn" and is also a standard action, so it's not good for getting CA. Haunting shade is interesting maybe I will get it if I have a spare feat later in the game.


You are going quite low as well since your average rogue can start with an 18 with little loss (same OA AC but better normal AC). Defensive mobility would be overkill its true.
How can a rogue start with 18 base AC? You mean getting 20 DEX?

Question: How many AoOs can a creature make per round? One per enemy or one total? Does AoO from marks count towards this total? So lets say there are a fighter, a ranger and my rogue attacking one tough monster The ranger moves and get one AoO, the fighter makes one AoO from the mark as an immediate interrupt. if he interrupts the AoO can the monster still make one against me? What if the fighter misses his AoO? If the fighter does his AoO can he still do another AoO if the monster moves?

Question 2: If the enemy is big/huge/giant how does I blind it with cloud of darkness? Do I need to cover all his squares? That would be kinda hard with a close burst 1 unless I get a power that allows me to slide my enemy by 1 square...
Say only 2 of his squares (and he is 2x2 or 3x3) are covered by the cloud and I'm also inside the cloud, say the monster isn't blinded but he still can't see me because I'm inside so I would get CA against him right? And if he tried to attack me he would be considered blinded?

Kurald Galain
2011-03-09, 10:43 AM
Question: How many AoOs can a creature make per round? One per enemy or one total? Does AoO from marks count towards this total?
One per turn. All AOs count towards the same total, but several marks (e.g. the fighter) have "mark retaliation attacks" that aren't an AO. If it's an immediate interrupt or immediate reaction, then it's not an AO.


How can a rogue start with 18 base AC? You mean getting 20 DEX?
It pays to max out your primary attribute.

Daftendirekt
2011-03-09, 10:45 AM
Question: How many AoOs can a creature make per round? One per enemy or one total? Does AoO from marks count towards this total?

From the Compendium: "One per Combatantís Turn: You can take only one opportunity action during another combatantís turn, but you can take any number during a round."

So, basically, one per enemy.

Dimers
2011-03-09, 12:01 PM
From the Compendium: "One per Combatantís Turn: You can take only one opportunity action during another combatantís turn, but you can take any number during a round."

So, basically, one per enemy.

One per enemy or ally. There are quite a few powers your allies can use to make enemies provoke during the ally's turn. I looooove those powers, hehe. :smallbiggrin:

Jack_Banzai
2011-03-17, 09:04 PM
It's not as broken as the Daggermaster (how could it be) but I found that my Drow Rogue/Daring Acrobat Artful Dodger has survived very well, considering I started at 3rd level and I'm now 20th. He was originally intended to be played strictly as a duelist, because I liked the idea of his 3[W] and 4[W] attacks actually meaning something with that meaty d8.

Feats: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier), Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Quick Draw, Backstabber, Slaying Action, Light Blade Expertise, Flash of the Blade, Weapon Proficiency (Parrying Dagger), Duelist's Panache, Linguist, Bravura Leader.

With a +4 Feyslaughter Rapier, +1 Rhythm Blade parrying dagger, Skald's Drowmesh +3, and Liar's Trinket +4, my defenses are AC 35, Fort 26, Ref 36, Will 30. Those are ok, but after using Opening Move (my favorite duelist Encounter) that bumps my AC to 43 and my Ref to 44. Pretty good for a Rogue with subpar gear.

Damage isn't bad with this build either. Since the Daring Acrobat is all about charging, you end up with a lot of bang for your buck even without a crit. Damage is usually in the low 40s for just a regular, plain old hit. The crit is extra nice, of course. And with that rapier, powers like Wild Tumble Cut (Encounter, 4[W] damage), Feinting Flurry (Daily, 5[W] damage), and Dramatic Finish (4[W] or 6[W] damage) actually make the Ws mean something. Virtually unheard of for a Rogue.

So not the massive, master OP character that the Daggermaster and other builds deliver, but still a solid striker with plenty of flavor and diverse abilities (I took Linguist, for god's sake) that is a lot of fun to play.

Blackfang108
2011-03-17, 09:29 PM
Eyebite is "invisible until start of your next turn" and is also a standard action, so it's not good for getting CA. Haunting shade is interesting maybe I will get it if I have a spare feat later in the game.



Never heard of an Action Point?

Daftendirekt
2011-03-18, 11:28 AM
Noticing the argument over the usefulness of Deft Strike:

Take Mark of Passage, and Acrobatic Strike instantly becomes better. Its "Shift 1 before or after attacking" becomes "Shift 2 before or after attacking". Now it's a shift, which trumps Deft's move, and it's before OR after attacking. Also, Mark of Passage applies to ALL shifts given by powers, unlike the feat (Ghostwalker Style?) that lets you move AFTER Deft Strike if you didn't before.

Curmudgeon
2011-03-18, 03:53 PM
Noticing the argument over the usefulness of Deft Strike:

Take Mark of Passage, and Acrobatic Strike instantly becomes better.
... but only if you're restricted to a light blade. Deft Strike also works with ranged attacks, and getting to move an extra 2 squares beforehand can get you to where you've got line of sight to your target.

Daftendirekt
2011-03-19, 01:54 PM
That's what your 2nd at-will is for. I was assuming a melee character upon typing that. As long as the 2nd at will isn't also melee-only, you can make do with that. Different story if it's a hybrid character, but that isn't what this sounds like.

Kurald Galain
2011-03-20, 09:21 AM
Noticing the argument over the usefulness of Deft Strike:

Take Mark of Passage, and Acrobatic Strike instantly becomes better.
Mark of Passage, however, is an Eberron Dragonmark Feat and tends to be disallowed in non-Eberron games (primarily because that line of feats is so good that, unless the DM bans them, every character is going to want one)