(3.5) - Skill Point Varient System

[Jamini]

Hallo folks!

I've recently been pondering some of the rule systems in 3.5e, especially the ones that make little/no sense. Today I was considering the 3e/3.5e skill system, it's idiosyncrasies, and how to possibly improve it. What is most striking to me about the 3.5 skill system, is how absolutely poor it is at giving anyone but a character specifically designed to take advantage of it (skillmonkies, as it were) any bit of leeway in character design. Many characters have no knowlage skills, or cannot jump to save their life despite having the body of a world-class olympian athlete. After a bit of thinking, I've developed a potential system rewrite that I'd like to see what you think of it.

Naturally any criticism is welcomed.

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Skill Point Varient System


Overall Base Skill Point Reduction -Skill points by class are reduced to 0 (2-4points/level classes), 2 (6 points/level classes), and 4 per level.(8 points/level classes.)

Ability-Dependent Skill Points - Each level, you get 1 skill point per ability modifier. Each of these goes into a separate pool of skill points based on the related attribute.


Class skills that share the same attribute as the spent skill point grant a rank on a 1 for 1 basis.

Cross-class skills that share the same attribute as the spent skill point rank a rank on a 2 for 1 basis.

Class skills that have a different attribute as the spent skill point grant a rank on a 2 for 1 basis*

Cross-class skills that have a different attribute as the spent skill point grant a rank on a 4 for 1 basis.**



Negative Ability Score Modifier Penalties- Negative skill points deduct 1 per negative ability modifier from your HIGHEST skill point pool. (So an array of 12, 18, 9, 10, 10, 10 would give you 1 strength skill point and 3 dexterity skill points). In the case of a tie, the player selects which score the remove points from.



*MAX ranks are unchanged. A paladin with 4 ride at level 1 going to level 2 may spend 1 strength skill point and 1 constitution skill point to increase his ride by 1 rank.
**For example. A barbarian wishing to pick up a rank in Speak Language without a positive intelligence modifier may spend 4 strength skill points for 1 rank in speak language.


System Example:
So a fighter with an array of 18/14/12/10/10/10 would have a total of 6 skill points to spend when leveling up. 4 of those may be used for a Strength-Based skill, 2 for Dexterity-Related skills, and 1 for Constitution-Related skills.

At second level he spends his Strength points on Jump(Str), Swim (Str), Climb (Str), and Ride (Dex). His dexterity points go to Balance (Dex) and Hide (Dex), and his Constitution point went to Ride (Dex).

Thus at 2 he has gained 1 rank in Jump, Swim, Climb, Ride(Class skill bought with 2 half-points), and Balance. he also has half a rank in Hide (Cross-class)


Predicted Effect:

For skillmonkies, dumping a stat becomes less attractive. Leading to more MAD and more Balanced ability score arrays.

Characters overall have more skills. Front-line combatants tend to benefit the most from this system, followed by full casters (mostly clerics, druids, and sorcerers. However, all full casters are limited by their tendency to maxing their casting stat and dumping other scores), Skillmonkies see some minor changes, but for the most part their skillmonkey abilities (Hide, Move Silently, UMD, Disable Device, Tumble, etc) are untouched. It should be noted that skillmonkies tend to be a little MADder than most anyway.

Characters tend to have skills more closely related to their position in the party. Fighters(or Paladins, Warblades, whatever) don't need to worry about picking climb OR ride OR jump simply because they lack the points to do so.

Less multi-class paperwork. Your attributes matter more than what class you leveled up, making characters much more believable and smoothing out skill progressions.

Magical Skill Augments become less popular. As everyone has more skill points to throw around, spells such as Spider Climb, Invisibility, and Detect X become less viable. Why spend valuable magic resources, if you have the skills to do the same thing indefinitely without magic?

Potential Issues:

a.Constitution becomes a less desirable statistic, thanks to the very few skills that are related to it.
-Rebuttal: The benefits of constitution still far outweigh the losses. HP and fortitude saves are the only thing keeping you up and running.

b.Full Casters get a buff, something they don't need, while T3 classes are getting a nasty slap in the face.
-Rebuttal: EVERYONE is getting a buff. Even skillmonkies generally won't find their niche intruded on too much, since cross-class and non-attribute skills are costly to acquire and maintain. Really, most casters will find themselves picking up useful skills for the entire party (Sense Motive, Search, Knowlage, Profession, Craft) rather than more powerful skills (such as spellcraft and concentration). As it is, the buff to casters is really nothing compared to the buff that frontline combat classes get.

c. Every melee and their dog will have the same skills picked out, because of their small skill list and preferred stats.
-Rubuttal: And this is a problem because...?


Feel free to post any concerns and thoughts you may have. After all, this is merely a small idea from the back corner of my somewhat twisted mind. I'm certain it could be refined to something really worthwhile, if we give it a chance.

[Ashtagon]

Everyone is going to have very high ranks in Concentration. Conversely, Dex and Int based skills, which is to say, most of the skill ones which the system was originally designed to make a unified mechanic for, will be seriously starved of skill points.

[Venardhi]

It isn't particularly elegant. Especially the buying system.

I would personally lean towards getting rid of class/cross class and instead have Physical and Mental skills in two different groups. You could instead replace the class skills function with one that allows them to spend mental skill points on physical class skills and physical on mental class skills.

Dex + Str + Con mods = Points to spend on physical skills, minimum 1.
Int + Wis + Cha mods = Points to spend on mental skills, minimum 1.

+ General skill points that can be used anywhere. (a reduced number, but with a minimum of 2 so even low-stat games will still have some skill points available to everyone.)

However, this does run into a problem that if a character is running around with no or almost no 'average' stats, they could potentially end up with more skill points than they know what to do with. We see this whenever an Int based class gets to higher levels anyways, so it might not be a huge concern.

It might be easy to remedy with a system of diminishing returns on taking anything above a certain point. For example: 1 point from 1-10 ranks, 2 points from 10-20 ranks, 3 points for any ranks above that. While they may have 10 ranks in almost everything by the time they hit level 20, they won't have many with 20 ranks if they do spread them out that much. Dangerously close to overcomplicating things though.

[Jamini]

Everyone is going to have very high ranks in Concentration. Conversely, Dex and Int based skills, which is to say, most of the skill ones which the system was originally designed to make a unified mechanic for, will be seriously starved of skill points.

Again, you can spend constitution points towards other skills. Not everyone has Concentration on their class list, and not all characters have a high constitution score. Those that do are sacrificing flexibility for durability. Regardless, having a Concentration skill is kind of silly in the first place anyway.

Classes that are designed to have high skill point totals (Rogues, Bards, Factotums, and to a lesser extent wizards) would not be starved for the skills they wish to invest in. Quite the opposite, actually, since they get roughly the same number of skill points as an int-based skillmonkey/dexmonkey if you take into account the 2-4 bonus skill points those classes get every level.

Assuming 28 point buy
Diverse Attribute Distribution - ~8 Skill points
Focused Attribute Distribution - ~5 Skill points
Bards/Rangers/etc - ~10 Skill points
Rogues - ~12 Skill points

If we bump them up to 32 point buy
MAD characters - ~11 Skill points/level
SAD characters - ~7 Skill points/level
Bards/Rangers/etc -~13 Skill points/level
Rogues/ Factotums - ~16 skill points/level


It isn't particularly elegant. Especially the buying system.

I would personally lean towards getting rid of class/cross class and instead have Physical and Mental skills in two different groups. You could instead replace the class skills function with one that allows them to spend mental skill points on physical class skills and physical on mental class skills.

Dex + Str + Con mods = Points to spend on physical skills, minimum 1.
Int + Wis + Cha mods = Points to spend on mental skills, minimum 1.

class/cross-class are generally there as a form of training. I'd like to see that remain. However simplifying the system down to Mental/Physical skill points, and allowing no overlap between those skill points, would be a potential adjustment.

[Ashtagon]

Again, you can spend constitution points towards other skills. Not everyone has Concentration on their class list, and not all characters have a high constitution score. Those that do are sacrificing flexibility for durability. Regardless, having a Concentration skill is kind of silly in the first place anyway.

Let's say I have a modestly high Con score. The resulting skill points your system generates will have to go into Con, because there isn't any other Con based skill. So even if it isn't a class skill, you're gonna spend points on it.

Classes that are designed to have high skill point totals (Rogues, Bards, Factotums, and to a lesser extent wizards) would not be starved for the skills they wish to invest in. Quite the opposite, actually, since they get roughly the same number of skill points as an int-based skillmonkey/dexmonkey if you take into account the 2-4 bonus skill points those classes get every level.

Conversely, Let's say I'm a skill monkey with 18 Dex. That gives me 4 skill points to spend between, half a dozen Dex-based skills. The corresponding Int-based skills which are also part of my class will be sucking up those remaining class-based skill points. Sure, I may have a few ranks in Jump or Climb, but those aren't what the skill monkey concept is really about.

You may well end up with the same general number of skill points (or even slightly more if you don't maximize you prime attributes), but you have far less control over how to spend those skill points, because the points are tied to their keyed ability score, which means you can maximize fewer of your key skills.

[Jamini]

Again, you can spend constitution points towards other skills. Not everyone has Concentration on their class list, and not all characters have a high constitution score. Those that do are sacrificing flexibility for durability. Regardless, having a Concentration skill is kind of silly in the first place anyway.

Let's say I have a modestly high Con score. The resulting skill points your system generates will have to go into Con, because there isn't any other Con based skill. So even if it isn't a class skill, you're gonna spend points on it.


I would be just as effective to spend those on class skills for a different attribute. I'm not arguing that you have less flexibility with a high constitution score than you do with other skills, because that is indeed the case, however a high constitution has other fairly major benefits to offset that. Unless you like low HP totals or a weak fortitude save.

In fact, in my example the Paladin listed used a Strength point and a Constitution point for a point of ride (A dexterity-based skill).





Classes that are designed to have high skill point totals (Rogues, Bards, Factotums, and to a lesser extent wizards) would not be starved for the skills they wish to invest in. Quite the opposite, actually, since they get roughly the same number of skill points as an int-based skillmonkey/dexmonkey if you take into account the 2-4 bonus skill points those classes get every level.

Conversely, Let's say I'm a skill monkey with 18 Dex. That gives me 4 skill points to spend between, half a dozen Dex-based skills. The corresponding Int-based skills which are also part of my class will be sucking up those remaining class-based skill points. Sure, I may have a few ranks in Jump or Climb, but those aren't what the skill monkey concept is really about.

You may well end up with the same general number of skill points (or even slightly more if you don't maximize you prime attributes), but you have far less control over how to spend those skill points, because the points are tied to their keyed ability score, which means you can maximize fewer of your key skills.

That varies depending on class. A bard or ranger with 18 Dex would have 6 skill points that they could potentially spend on class skills, as they get 2 bonus skill points per level, meanwhile a rogue (or, for some odd reason a factotum) would have 8 skill points for dex-based skills (assuming they also have no negative ability modifiers). Are you really telling me that you can't get the skills you need as a dex-based class (most all of whom get 2-4 bonus skill points under this system.) to suit your needs?

Let's look at a common rogue skill point distribution with say... 14 intelligence (10 skill points)

1. Hide (Dex)
2. M.Silently (Dex)
3. Tumble (Dex)
4. Escape Artist (Dex)
5. Balance (Dex)(Spending more than 5 skill points here isn't terribly necessary)/Disable Device(Dex)
6. Open Lock (Dex)
7. Balance (Dex)
8. Climb (Str)
9. Use Magic Device (Cha)
10. Bluff (Cha)

So seven dexterity-based skills, one strength-based skill, and two Charisma-based skills. Now, let's look at a rogue with a 28 point-buy array of... 12/16/10/12/10/14

They could have:
Generic
1. Balance/Disable Device (Dex)
2. Escape Artist (Dex)
3. Tumble (Dex)
4. Open Lock (Dex)
Strength
1. Climb
Dexterity
1.Hide
2. Move Silently
3. Open Lock
Intelligence
1. Search
Charisma
1. Use Magic Device
2. Bluff

Notice, both rogues have all of the key rogue skills (Stealth, Disable Device, Use magic Device. Also, the rogue under the new system gains search!) without needing to do any serious score adjusting, hardly skill starved. The Int-Based Factotum handles this similarly, and the Bard also gains a bit out of this system.

I'd also like to point out that SAD characters ARE slightly penalized in this system by design. That's mostly because SAD characters are frankly much more powerful and specialized by more MAD characters.

[Adamantrue]

I like the concept behind this. It seems less counter-intuitive, and the general mechanics aren't any worse than most other things we have to deal with. And I like the perks it gives MAD Classes, without actually penalizing SAD Classes.

I think the Constitution/Concentration issue is its only failing, though that may be a matter of opinion. It doesn't quite make sense if, all other things being equal, the heartier character somehow has more skills than the next guy.

[Veyr]

Tying skill points to the key ability modifier of the skill means that it is that much harder for someone to train to overcome a lack in that key ability modifier. Thus, having low Wis not only lowers my Survival check directly, it also hurts my ability to put points in Survival.

Keep the two separate, IMO: they represent different things. Your ability modifier is natural talent, ranks are practice and training; don't mix the two.

[Adamantrue]

Tying skill points to the key ability modifier of the skill means that it is that much harder for someone to train to overcome a lack in that key ability modifier. Thus, having low Wis not only lowers my Survival check directly, it also hurts my ability to put points in Survival.

Keep the two separate, IMO: they represent different things. Your ability modifier is natural talent, ranks are practice and training; don't mix the two. But you do still have a set of "free" Skill Points to spend in that skill. A low Wis Rogue can still top it off with some from the Base 4/level this system grants. If you only received Skill Points from your Ability Scores, it'd be one thing, but its more of an addition-to, than an instead-of.

[Veyr]

But you lose general skill points, and let's face it, 3.5 has far too few skill points (or, more accurately, far too many skills) to begin with.

[Ashtagon]

But you do still have a set of "free" Skill Points to spend in that skill. A low Wis Rogue can still top it off with some from the Base 4/level this system grants. If you only received Skill Points from your Ability Scores, it'd be one thing, but its more of an addition-to, than an instead-of.

What about the fighters, clerics, rangers, monks, and wizards? Only 3 of the 11 SRD classes would have any class-based skill points to allocate under your system.

Too, wizards are designed with the assumption that their high Intelligence counters the low class-based skill points, to result in an overall skill monkey class. But your redesign breaks this concept.

[flabort]

Rule 2.4 reads almost exaclty the same as 2.5. Maybe you meant "same ability" in 2.4?
Example has 4+2+1=6. Basic math fail, but it's not much of a fail. The spot DC to find your mistake was pretty high.