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Prime32
2011-03-13, 10:28 AM
I'm going to lock this thread, but you have permission to begin a new message board thread here in Homebrew to discuss if anyone wants.
Will do. :smalltongue:

I always thought the Champion was a cool concept but hard to actually use, so I was happy to see the additions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9623431).


If Rich is reading this, I'd like to ask something about Avatar Weapon.

Avatar Weapon (Su): Starting at 8th level, the champion can cause one of his magical weapons to change shape along with him when he takes his avatar form. The weapon changes to any one other simple or martial weapon, but keeps all enchantments and is crafted from the same special materials (if possible). The champion chooses a weapon to be his avatar weapon by meditating on it for 8 hours and deciding what its alternate form will be; once chosen, the weapon can only transform to that single shape. The champion can meditate again to switch the ability to a different weapon or to change the alternate form to that of a different weapon.
How does this work with double weapons? Let's say I have a +1 flaming burst/+2 shocking quarterstaff which I want to turn into a longsword. Would I choose one end to turn into a longsword, with the other vanishing? Or would I get a +2 flaming burst shocking longsword?

Second, while the multiclassing feats are cool they leave you with little reason to take more than 1 champion level. The existing multiclassing feats grant bonuses in both directions. If, say, Avatar Knight let your champion levels advance Smite Evil it would make things more interesting.


Otherwise, anyone used this class in a game?

Loki_42
2011-03-13, 10:56 AM
If it didn't require good, I thought that switching around some abilities would make a pretty cool Yugi/Yami build. Never tried it though.

The Glyphstone
2011-03-13, 10:59 AM
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Children's Card Game)?:smallbiggrin:

Istari
2011-03-13, 11:56 AM
If it didn't require good, I thought that switching around some abilities would make a pretty cool Yugi/Yami build. Never tried it though.

I'm pretty sure it mentions you can swap everything alignment related in there to make an evil champion

Replace all instances of good with evil and evil with good.

Elfstone
2011-03-13, 12:39 PM
Im so happy it got a revamp. This makes my day. I did use the class but not the new version. It worked well.

Tanuki Tales
2011-03-13, 02:07 PM
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Children's Card Game)?:smallbiggrin:

No sir, it would be max ranks in Perform (Epic Mind Rape). :smallbiggrin:

The Giant
2011-03-13, 04:18 PM
If Rich is reading this, I'd like to ask something about Avatar Weapon.

How does this work with double weapons? Let's say I have a +1 flaming burst/+2 shocking quarterstaff which I want to turn into a longsword. Would I choose one end to turn into a longsword, with the other vanishing? Or would I get a +2 flaming burst shocking longsword?

I'd say the second. You paid for those weapon enchantments, there's no reason you shouldn't get to use them. Just take the higher of the two enhancement bonuses and apply all non-redundant abilities (that is, if both ends are flaming, you don't get flaming x2).

Likewise, if your regular weapon is a +4 flaming longsword, and you want to turn it into an orcish double axe, both ends will end up one enhancement bonus less, and then divvy up the special abilities between the ends. So you would get one end as +3 and the other as +3 flaming. That's actually a slight bump in overall power, but so what? It's a class ability, it's supposed to make him more powerful.

Also, your abilities gained from Greater Avatar Weapon should be split up (or not) as desired to the two ends of your weapon, if your weapon is turning into a double weapon in avatar form.


Second, while the multiclassing feats are cool they leave you with little reason to take more than 1 champion level.

The feats I wrote do not advance the number of times per day you can take avatar form, nor do they increase its energy resistance, damage reduction, or flight capabilities, nor does it give you a +1 ability scores increase for the avatar every level. If you want to take one level of champion so you can turn into a slightly-different version of yourself once a day, go to town. Without the extras that the champion class gives you, your avatar will just be a reshuffled version of yourself without any of the class features that the multiclass feats don't specifically allow.


The existing multiclassing feats grant bonuses in both directions. If, say, Avatar Knight let your champion levels advance Smite Evil it would make things more interesting.

And what reason would one have to take more than one level of paladin, then? The feats are intended to help the player who wants to play a champion with the added flavor from another class, not a player who wants to dip, in either direction.

The existing multiclass feats are a different kettle of fish because none of those classes puts you in a different body with different ability scores X times per day. Well, druid does, but that's why druid + Natural Spell is so powerful. Imagine a single feat that let you cast all of your arcane spells in wild shape form AND allowed your druid levels to count as wizard levels for purposes of spells known. It would be called the most broken thing ever, and rightly so.

Prime32
2011-03-13, 06:23 PM
Thanks for the weapon clarification.

The feats I wrote do not advance the number of times per day you can take avatar form, nor do they increase its energy resistance, damage reduction, or flight capabilities, nor does it give you a +1 ability scores increase for the avatar every level. If you want to take one level of champion so you can turn into a slightly-different version of yourself once a day, go to town. Without the extras that the champion class gives you, your avatar will just be a reshuffled version of yourself without any of the class features that the multiclass feats don't specifically allow.My main worry is an arcane spellcaster with Dragonblooded Avatar. Apart from the reshuffling there's still those 4 ability improvements at first level, which could be put into their spellcasting score. And the avatar's d12/full BAB chassis is more of a boost to a wizard or sorcerer than any other class. Then there's the matter that while the other feats give the avatar access to some of your other class features, Dragonblooded Avatar gives a sorcerer/champion all of them.

With Extra Hero Form the end result is basically a wizard who can grant himself full BAB, save bonuses, +4 Int and +4hp/level every encounter. Apart from making it harder for enemies to resist his spells, a polymorphed avatar-wizard would be terrifying, adding the strength of a dragon (for instance) to his enhanced combat abilities.

Best solution I can think of is to make the HD advancement connected to the class that grants it, so that avatar HD you gain from wizard levels would be d4/poor BAB/good Will (the champion class being the only one that grants HD better than its own).



Second, while the multiclassing feats are cool they leave you with little reason to take more than 1 champion level. The existing multiclassing feats grant bonuses in both directions. If, say, Avatar Knight let your champion levels advance Smite Evil it would make things more interesting.And what reason would one have to take more than one level of paladin, then?That would be someone who wanted to be a paladin with champion abilities, rather than a champion with paladin abilities. It gives a choice between, say, letting your avatar fly or getting a faster mount, opening up more character concepts.

The Giant
2011-03-13, 07:31 PM
Thanks for the weapon clarification.
My main worry is an arcane spellcaster with Dragonblooded Avatar. Apart from the reshuffling there's still those 4 ability improvements at first level, which could be put into their spellcasting score.

Well, I'll be honest that this never occurred to me, mostly because it would be violating the spirit of the class horribly, which is that the champion is the smart one and the avatar is a big dumb brute.


And the avatar's d12/full BAB chassis is more of a boost to a wizard or sorcerer than any other class. Then there's the matter that while the other feats give the avatar access to some of your other class features, Dragonblooded Avatar gives a sorcerer/champion all of them.

That's last part is more of a problem with the sorcerer, though. We all acknowledge that it's terrible that giving a sorcerer a prestige class with full caster progression and any other abilities is always going to be better than a single-classed caster, right? Same idea.


With Extra Hero Form the end result is basically a wizard who can grant himself full BAB, save bonuses, +4 Int and +4hp/level every encounter. Apart from making it harder for enemies to resist his spells, a polymorphed avatar-wizard would be terrifying, adding the strength of a dragon (for instance) to his enhanced combat abilities.

First, avatars are immune to being polymorphed. That includes by their own spells.

Second, it wouldn't grant him much in the way of save bonuses because he would lose his wizard's good Will save while in avatar form. I guess if a wizard wants to trade his one good save for two other good saves, he can. Doesn't really strike me as that much of a problem.

However, I see what you're getting at.


Best solution I can think of is to make the HD advancement connected to the class that grants it, so that avatar HD you gain from wizard levels would be d4/poor BAB/good Will (the champion class being the only one that grants HD better than its own).

A much easier solution would be to increase the prerequisites of the Extra Hero Form feat to "Hero Form 2/day". If a wizard wants to give up five caster levels and some feats to pull that trick off more than once a day, I say we let him.


That would be someone who wanted to be a paladin with champion abilities, rather than a champion with paladin abilities. It gives a choice between, say, letting your avatar fly or getting a faster mount, opening up more character concepts.

What's stopping them from doing that now? So they have to make the choice whether they get one or the other to be more powerful, what's bad about that? If they want to fly, they take more champion levels at the price of having a weaker mount (which they won't need because they can FLY) and lower Smite Evil. If they want a stronger mount, they take more paladin levels at the price of not flying (which is fine, because they're riding a horse) and lower avatar stats. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

And let's be honest: No one takes levels of paladin just because they want to increase their mount's power. Or cast low-level divine spells. That's like saying that some people might not want to prestige class out of sorcerer because their familiar won't be as strong. True in theory, not in practice. If someone wants their mount to be strong, they take Leadership and get a kickass silver dragon as a cohort, they don't blow paladin levels on it.

Choices create character concepts. Getting the best of both worlds creates a bunch of characters who all have it all. If you can take one feat and get the best of everything both classes have to offer, then that's what everyone will do.

Axinian
2011-03-13, 07:50 PM
Having played with the class, I must say I really like it, but there was one thing that was constantly getting in the way: limiting the Avatar form by uses per day rather than minutes per day. Especially at low levels, it never really felt like I was able to shine (pun sort of intended), because I would only be able to make use of the class's main ability for a brief amount of time. At higher levels this is obviously less of a problem, but at low levels I just felt like a barbarian with a rage variant, and the prerequisite on Extra Transformation prevents it from fixing this.

This is just me, but I would find the class a lot more fun if you could switch in and out of hero form as long as you have minutes of it left, rather than using it all up the first time you do it, with each use counting as a minute at minimum.

Maybe I'm just too used to how Pathfinder does things, but this really was the only thing hindering the fun of the class (it was still fun, but less so than it could be at low levels.)

The Glyphstone
2011-03-13, 08:02 PM
Well, I'll be honest that this never occurred to me, mostly because it would be violating the spirit of the class horribly, which is that the champion is the smart one and the avatar is a big dumb brute.




Is that necessarily how it has to be, though? Off the top of my head, I can only thing of classic characters that really exemplify the Champion:
Prince Adam/He-Man, and ???/Captain Marvel - both of them are a split between weak, unassuming 'normal' and 'mighty hero', but I don't remember either He-Man or Captain Marvel being particularly stupid. Admittedly, the class features strongly support making the avatar a bruiser, and the minimaxing nature of players would encourage using the avatar's useless mental stats for dump stats; but even in your sample champions, Sindee The Black actually gets smarter when she transforms into the Forest Guardian. I could easily see a cheerful, good-natured but rather dim person - the classical 'farmboy' persona - whose Avatar is much smarter than he is, but less friendly.

The Giant
2011-03-13, 08:07 PM
Having played with the class, I must say I really like it, but there was one thing that was constantly getting in the way: limiting the Avatar form by uses per day rather than minutes per day. Especially at low levels, it never really felt like I was able to shine (pun sort of intended), because I would only be able to make use of the class's main ability for a brief amount of time. At higher levels this is obviously less of a problem, but at low levels I just felt like a barbarian with a rage variant, and the prerequisite on Extra Transformation prevents it from fixing this.

This is just me, but I would find the class a lot more fun if you could switch in and out of hero form as long as you have minutes of it left, rather than using it all up the first time you do it, with each use counting as a minute at minimum.

Maybe I'm just too used to how Pathfinder does things, but this really was the only thing hindering the fun of the class (it was still fun, but less so than it could be at low levels.)

That's a good point, but there's a danger there, too. Specifically, that few encounters last more than a minute or two, when all is said and done. At 1st level, that could result in the champion being able to assume avatar form for as many as 8 encounters a day, far more utility than the 1st level barbarian gets with his rage or the 1st level caster gets with his two spells per day. As it stands, in a dungeon situation a champion can already keep pushing through 2 or 3 nearby encounters in the 8 minutes that an 18 Cha champion can stay in avatar form.

I mean, if it plays like a barbarian at low levels, well, that was the intent. It IS like the barbarian. And it shouldn't be changed because Pathfinder changed the way their barbarians work, because not everyone plays Pathfinder. If you want to use the champion in Pathfinder and split its avatar time up like that, you can do so, but I recommend that you change the total minutes per day to class level + Charisma modifier. Also, you probably can't allow feats like Explosive Transformation because you'll have your champion SHAZAMing people every few rounds.

Temassasin
2011-03-13, 08:08 PM
i was thinking maybe a blackguard version of the class though you could just switch good with evil (as it says) and re flavor it.

The Giant
2011-03-13, 08:10 PM
Is that necessarily how it has to be, though? Off the top of my head, I can only thing of classic characters that really exemplify the Champion:
Prince Adam/He-Man, and ???/Captain Marvel - both of them are a split between weak, unassuming 'normal' and 'mighty hero', but I don't remember either He-Man or Captain Marvel being particularly stupid. Admittedly, the class features strongly support making the avatar a bruiser, and the minimaxing nature of players would encourage using the avatar's useless mental stats for dump stats; but even in your sample champions, Sindee The Black actually gets smarter when she transforms into the Forest Guardian. I could easily see a cheerful, good-natured but rather dim person - the classical 'farmboy' persona - whose Avatar is much smarter than he is, but less friendly.

You're absolutely right, I should have stricken the word "dumb" from my sentence. However, the point stands that I didn't envision the avatar as anything but a combat character because until yesterday, it was impossible for him to cast spells in avatar form.

Also, Captain Marvel's civilian identity is Billy Batson. I will now have to take your moderating badge away. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2011-03-13, 08:14 PM
You're absolutely right, I should have stricken the word "dumb" from my sentence. However, the point stands that I didn't envision the avatar as anything but a combat character because until yesterday, it was impossible for him to cast spells in avatar form.

Also, Captain Marvel's civilian identity is Billy Batson. I will now have to take your moderating badge away. :smalltongue:

I saw Billy Batson on his wiki (I checked) - but it's a comic book character, they change identities like hats...how many Green Lanterns have there been by this point?

Though since we're discussing superheroes, how would you as the creator feel about a variant Champion of sorts where the Avatar was the spellcasting half? It'd take a lot of work to be playable, but it seems a logical extension of the flavor.

alchemyprime
2011-03-13, 08:21 PM
I saw Billy Batson on his wiki (I checked) - but it's a comic book character, they change identities like hats...how many Green Lanterns have there been by this point?

Though since we're discussing superheroes, how would you as the creator feel about a variant Champion of sorts where the Avatar was the spellcasting half? It'd take a lot of work to be playable, but it seems a logical extension of the flavor.

On Earth? Not counting possible futures or alternate timelines, 6 (Jade was a Green Lantern for a while) and almost 7 (Terry Berg was supposed to take over for Kyle when he became Ion, but the editors trashed that). That is with counting Alan Scott, but they have said though his ring is just a magical recreation, he has honorary Green Lantern Corps status.

Also, I believe Billy Batson has been the only Captain Marvel on the Fawcett/DC side (though Freddie Freeman goes by Captain Marvel Jr., and Mary marvel was called Captain Marvel for a while). Though at Marvel comics, Rick Jones was able to swap out with their Kree Captain Mahr-Vehl for a while by banging the Negabands together.

The more you know.

Also, I have to say: Always have loved the champion, even if I've never gotten a chance to play one.

Prime32
2011-03-13, 08:31 PM
A much easier solution would be to increase the prerequisites of the Extra Hero Form feat to "Hero Form 2/day". If a wizard wants to give up five caster levels and some feats to pull that trick off more than once a day, I say we let him.That does sound better. Though I'd make that a prereq of the multiclassing feat in case he gains extra uses through some other means. (action points?)


Also, you probably can't allow feats like Explosive Transformation because you'll have your champion SHAZAMing people every few rounds.Not a fan of the Diniverse? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2BvSqqmidM#t=2m29s) :smalltongue:

The Giant
2011-03-13, 08:32 PM
I saw Billy Batson on his wiki (I checked) - but it's a comic book character, they change identities like hats...how many Green Lanterns have there been by this point?

Totally different scenario; the very premise of the Green Lantern calls for it to be easily passed from one person to the next (or else Hal would never have gotten it in the first place) and for there to be 3600 of them at the same time.

Captain Marvel was chosen by a wizard. A wizard.


Though since we're discussing superheroes, how would you as the creator feel about a variant Champion of sorts where the Avatar was the spellcasting half? It'd take a lot of work to be playable, but it seems a logical extension of the flavor.

In order for the concept of the champion to work, the avatar has to be more powerful than not only the champion, but more powerful than an average warrior-type of the same level. That's what justifies him gaining his power in such small chunks.

For a spellcaster, there's little that I can think to do to make a spellcaster MORE powerful than a standard spellcaster that wouldn't further break them. If you kept the spellcasting half at the same power level as, say, a sorcerer, then there's little reason the player wouldn't just play a regular sorcerer all of the time. If you increased it to the power of a wizard, well, they'd play a wizard instead. And if you increased it beyond the power of a wizard, then you've sailed off into Crazyland.

So, while I could see some sort of more magical variant, I don't think true spellcasting would work. The champion is only balanced precisely because other existing warrior classes are not at the top of the power curve. At best, I think you would have to go with something more reminiscent of the warlock in avatar form (but better) rather than spells.

EDITED to add: Unless you were also nerfing the power of spellcasters in general in your campaign so that they weren't casting greater "I win" spells every day at high levels. Then, a spellcasting version of the champion could work quite well

The Giant
2011-03-13, 08:37 PM
That does sound better. Though I'd make that a prereq of the multiclassing feat in case he gains extra uses through some other means. (action points?)

Well, action points aren't standard, so I'm not going to worry about them. That's on the DM if he chooses to allow them.

But remember that you can't JUST make it a prereq of the multiclassing feat, or your theoretical abuser will just use Extra Hero Form to qualify for the multiclass feat in the first place, and it defeats the entire point.


Not a fan of the Diniverse? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2BvSqqmidM#t=2m29s) :smalltongue:

Huge fan, just there's a difference between doing that over and over because you're just that powerful, and doing it over and over because the DM made a houserule that they didn't think through.

Prime32
2011-03-13, 08:38 PM
Captain Marvel was chosen by a wizard. A wizard.Pfft. The Guardians are space wizards. In space. And the original Green Lantern was magic.

The Glyphstone
2011-03-13, 08:39 PM
Totally different scenario; the very premise of the Green Lantern calls for it to be easily passed from one person to the next (or else Hal would never have gotten it in the first place) and for there to be 3600 of them at the same time.

Captain Marvel was chosen by a wizard. A wizard.

Green Lantern may have been a bad example then, but I still think my hesitation is justified.:smallsmile: Green Lantern, Robin, The Flash, Captain America (technically), The Question, Batgirl - there's a decent number of costumed heroes who've passed their mantle on to another name more than once.



In order for the concept of the champion to work, the avatar has to be more powerful than not only the champion, but more powerful than an average warrior-type of the same level. That's what justifies him gaining his power in such small chunks.

For a spellcaster, there's little that I can think to do to make a spellcaster MORE powerful than a standard spellcaster that wouldn't further break them. If you kept the spellcasting half at the same power level as, say, a sorcerer, then there's little reason the player wouldn't just play a regular sorcerer all of the time. If you increased it to the power of a wizard, well, they'd play a wizard instead. And if you increased it beyond the power of a wizard, then you've sailed off into Crazyland.

So, while I could see some sort of more magical variant, I don't think true spellcasting would work. The champion is only balanced precisely because other existing warrior classes are not at the top of the power curve. At best, I think you would have to go with something more reminiscent of the warlock in avatar form (but better) rather than spells.

A warlock-analogue would probably be how it came out, anyways. Anything resembling a traditional Vancian caster wouldn't really work, because the uses/day conflicts would encourage heavy nova-ing to avoid getting unused spells locked away in the untouchable Avatar form.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-13, 08:39 PM
So, while I could see some sort of more magical variant, I don't think true spellcasting would work. The champion is only balanced precisely because other existing warrior classes are not at the top of the power curve. At best, I think you would have to go with something more reminiscent of the warlock in avatar form (but better) rather than spells.

In all fairness, Mr. Burlew, the warlock is in desperate need of improvement, so this may be an incredible idea to pursue.

Prime32
2011-03-13, 08:43 PM
Just be sure to combine it with the ability to charge your blasts up for more damage by shouting the names of Hawaiian kings. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2011-03-13, 08:43 PM
Just be sure to combine it with the ability to charge your blasts up for more damage by shouting the names of Hawaiian kings. :smalltongue:

Or by grunting and clenching your fists for five episodes?

The Giant
2011-03-13, 08:51 PM
In all fairness, Mr. Burlew, the warlock is in desperate need of improvement, so this may be an incredible idea to pursue.

The warlock is also in desperate need of being Open Game Content before I could do any such thing, which it is not.

That's why there's not, just by way of example, a feat that allowed the champion and warlock levels to stack for purposes of the avatar's Hit Dice, attack bonus, save bonuses, and skill points and allowed the avatar to use eldritch blast and invocations while in avatar form. Because me, a professional designer, designing such a feat and publishing it on this website would be wrong.

Also, I personally like the warlock more or less the way it is*, and would rather see all other spellcasters brought down to a similar level. But that's just me and I realize it does not represent everyone else's views.

* I would make fiendish resilience constant fast healing, and have one invocation gained every level, if anyone were asking me.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-13, 08:55 PM
Your point is well made, Mr. Burlew, though I do believe that there's some manner of vagaries in the OGL laws that state that you can design something similar to, say, Invocations or Maneuvers, but I may be (and probably am) wrong. Would you be terribly offended if one or more of us took the concept and sprinted with it?

arguskos
2011-03-13, 09:00 PM
If I might, I have a non-Champion question, but since you're here reading this thread, I figured I was safe to ask it here.

Will you be saving the other gaming articles, such as the Play Theory articles, the villains, and the works not by yourself, in the same manner as the work in the sticky above? If not, may I inquire as to why? It's all quite fine work, worthy of remembrance, and I'd hate for it to be removed, since we'd lose good stuff for future posters.

The Giant
2011-03-13, 09:00 PM
Your point is well made, Mr. Burlew, though I do believe that there's some manner of vagaries in the OGL laws that state that you can design something similar to, say, Invocations or Maneuvers, but I may be (and probably am) wrong.

That is one legal interpretation I have heard. To my knowledge, it has not yet been challenged in a court of law. I don't really intend to be the one to do so.


Would you be terribly offended if one or more of us took the concept and sprinted with it?

I have no input on what you may or may not choose to post in this forum, as long as you respect the rules of posting, particularly with regard to copyright laws.

The Giant
2011-03-13, 09:12 PM
If I might, I have a non-Champion question, but since you're here reading this thread, I figured I was safe to ask it here.

Will you be saving the other gaming articles, such as the Play Theory articles, the villains, and the works not by yourself, in the same manner as the work in the sticky above? If not, may I inquire as to why? It's all quite fine work, worthy of remembrance, and I'd hate for it to be removed, since we'd lose good stuff for future posters.

The Play Theory and New World articles will remain exactly where they are.

The NPC villains will be going away. While I'm glad that you appreciate them, in some cases they represent ideas that I may want to utilize someday in a work of fiction. You may notice some thematic similarities between the black dragon assassin and a certain black dragon mother who came after Vaarsuvius, for example. As a result, it is in my best long-term interest to take them down now, long before I may want to use them. Yes, they've been up for years, but you'd be surprised how few people have ever read them.

For the work from other authors, the answer is simply that I do not have permission to re-post their work in the forum. But more than that, I'm trying to refocus the site on my own work. Right now, my name appears less than anyone else's on the side bar, but I'm the one who is relying on this site for my income.

And that's part of the reason for the switch to begin with. While I am still interested in gaming as a hobby, the fact is that professionally, I have moved past it into writing in general. I'm not going to be writing rulebooks or gaming articles in the future, I'm going to be writing comic books or novels. Therefore, I want the forward face of the website to more accurately represent what I do NOW, rather than what I did in 2006. The Play Theory and New World articles get to stay because they are as much about writing as they are about gaming, but everything else is getting shunted here.

In a weird way, though, this may actually encourage me to write more gaming stuff. If I know that something I thought up in my spare time is not going to get the scrutiny of being the First New Gaming Article On the Site in Five Years, I may not be as worried about it.

Elfstone
2011-03-13, 09:29 PM
Yes, they've been up for years, but you'd be surprised how few people have ever read them.

And that's part of the reason for the switch to begin with. While I am still interested in gaming as a hobby, the fact is that professionally, I have moved past it into writing in general. I'm not going to be writing rulebooks or gaming articles in the future, I'm going to be writing comic books or novels. Therefore, I want the forward face of the website to more accurately represent what I do NOW, rather than what I did in 2006. The Play Theory and New World articles get to stay because they are as much about writing as they are about gaming, but everything else is getting shunted here.

In a weird way, though, this may actually encourage me to write more gaming stuff. If I know that something I thought up in my spare time is not going to get the scrutiny of being the First New Gaming Article On the Site in Five Years, I may not be as worried about it.
I read them.

Any hints on what the novels will be about? Still set in a Dnd esque world?

Couldn't you just move the article to an obscure place? Something that has been archived but still referenced by those of us who use/want to use them?

arguskos
2011-03-13, 09:32 PM
The Play Theory and New World articles will remain exactly where they are.
That's great to hear. Do you have plans to return to those projects in the future?


The NPC villains will be going away. While I'm glad that you appreciate them, in some cases they represent ideas that I may want to utilize someday in a work of fiction. You may notice some thematic similarities between the black dragon assassin and a certain black dragon mother who came after Vaarsuvius, for example. As a result, it is in my best long-term interest to take them down now, long before I may want to use them. Yes, they've been up for years, but you'd be surprised how few people have ever read them.
Sad to hear it, but completely understandable. I hope that, perhaps, some of them show up soon. I have always enjoyed the idea of Kalar the Burning especially, and would love to see a work of serious fiction involving a similar character.


And that's part of the reason for the switch to begin with. While I am still interested in gaming as a hobby, the fact is that professionally, I have moved past it into writing in general. I'm not going to be writing rulebooks or gaming articles in the future, I'm going to be writing comic books or novels. Therefore, I want the forward face of the website to more accurately represent what I do NOW, rather than what I did in 2006. The Play Theory and New World articles get to stay because they are as much about writing as they are about gaming, but everything else is getting shunted here.
Will the site be geared more towards generalized fiction going forward then? If so, can we expect the Stories section to perhaps see some love and attention? That'd be really great to see.


In a weird way, though, this may actually encourage me to write more gaming stuff. If I know that something I thought up in my spare time is not going to get the scrutiny of being the First New Gaming Article On the Site in Five Years, I may not be as worried about it.
Indeed. Whatever you do decide to do, I'm certain you can count on the forum's support for it. Dunno if that means anything to you, but I hope it does. :smallwink:

The Giant
2011-03-13, 09:36 PM
Any hints on what the novels will be about?

They will have little, if anything, to do with knitting.


Couldn't you just move the article to an obscure place? Something that has been archived but still referenced by those of us who use/want to use them?

I could, but I'm not going to. However, I should point out that they are still up RIGHT NOW, if you think you might need them in the future. This is why I announced that they're going away before I actually took them away.

EDIT: Just please don't republish them somewhere else.

The Giant
2011-03-13, 09:39 PM
That's great to hear. Do you have plans to return to those projects in the future?

Uncertain. Certainly not in their current form, but I haven't ruled out working on a more general non-system-specific gaming advice project.


Will the site be geared more towards generalized fiction going forward then? If so, can we expect the Stories section to perhaps see some love and attention? That'd be really great to see.

Well, one can hope, but I've been intending to write a story for that for years, and working on OOTS always keeps me from it.


Indeed. Whatever you do decide to do, I'm certain you can count on the forum's support for it. Dunno if that means anything to you, but I hope it does. :smallwink:

It does, thanks. I appreciate it greatly.

Elfstone
2011-03-13, 09:40 PM
They will have little, if anything, to do with knitting.

I could, but I'm not going to. However, I should point out that they are still up RIGHT NOW, if you think you might need them in the future. This is why I announced that they're going away before I actually took them away.

Thank you.


I figured I could save them, but wasn't sure if your intent that they not be recorded... So I said nothing. I will save the ones I like. (All of them. Well all but one or two.)

Lyndworm
2011-03-13, 09:40 PM
Whatever you do decide to do, I'm certain you can count on the forum's support for it. Dunno if that means anything to you, but I hope it does. :smallwink:

I totally agree. You have my undying support, forever and for always. :smalltongue:

Temassasin
2011-03-13, 09:43 PM
In a weird way, though, this may actually encourage me to write more gaming stuff.
really does that mean you will finish the new world (actually concerning those articles maybe the 12 from the children of the 12 are stars) i really want to see that even if it's just to read it they are very interesting

arguskos
2011-03-13, 09:45 PM
They will have little, if anything, to do with knitting.
I'm sad about that. I was looking forward to your views on cross-stitch. I'm joking.
Mostly.

Uncertain. Certainly not in their current form, but I haven't ruled out working on a more general non-system-specific gaming advice project.
The Play Theory line seems like it could service that ambition decently well. It was broad enough to cover many topics, and as any long-term gamemaster will tell you, there's just some stuff you have to hear from someone else and that crosses all systems. Inter-player conflicts, how to pace a session, methods to balance mechanics with roleplaying, all of these are setting-neutral, yet vital topics that every gamemaster eventually faces.

If you do come back to Play Theory, I'm sure you can find quite a bit to talk about. Of course, free time is something quite different.


Well, one can hope, but I've been intending to write a story for that for years, and working on OOTS always keeps me from it.
You're telling me. I'm an English major, and I write very little, I just lack the time. :smallsigh:


It does, thanks. I appreciate it greatly.
Happy to hear it! Anyways, I'll let you return to your evening. Thanks for answering my questions, I really appreciate it. :smallsmile:

Elfstone
2011-03-13, 09:47 PM
EDIT: Just please don't republish them somewhere else.

Perish the thought.



Indeed. Whatever you do decide to do, I'm certain you can count on the forum's support for it. Dunno if that means anything to you, but I hope it does. :smallwink:

I figured this was a given. But hey, if it makes you feel better, You got it.

Temotei
2011-03-13, 09:51 PM
I'm sad about that. I was looking forward to your views on cross-stitch.

Perhaps basket-weaving will come into play.

The Glyphstone
2011-03-14, 06:28 AM
Perhaps basket-weaving will come into play.

How rude. Everyone knows basket-weaving is for munchkins. Underwater basket-weaving is the art of true roleplayers.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-14, 06:30 AM
How rude. Everyone knows basket-weaving is for munchkins. Underwater basket-weaving is the art of true roleplayers.

Well, at least those die-hard roleplayers that aren't married to their Lightning Warrior concepts. The lack of familiars hurts, but it can be worth it to really express your concept.

Temotei
2011-03-14, 06:59 AM
How rude. Everyone knows basket-weaving is for munchkins. Underwater basket-weaving is the art of true roleplayers.

But of course! Underwater basket-weaving is the norm in my world, so to think you thought I...ha! Ho ho! :smallbiggrin:

Deep apologies from the deep for such surfaced rudeness.

Dvandemon
2011-03-14, 01:47 PM
So, from everyone's comments, this class is basically a superhero alter-ego sort of thing?
EDIT: Just please don't republish them somewhere else.
Would keeping them on hand to give to anyone that asks count as republishing?

arguskos
2011-03-14, 01:59 PM
So, from everyone's comments, this class is basically a superhero alter-ego sort of thing?
Would keeping them on hand to give to anyone that asks count as republishing?
To the first, yeah, pretty much. Of course, fluff is mutable.

To the second, I do not believe so, but I'm no lawyer, so I can't guarantee that answer.

Prime32
2011-03-14, 05:58 PM
So, from everyone's comments, this class is basically a superhero alter-ego sort of thing?It was linked in the first post, and it's in a sticky. :smallconfused:

Dvandemon
2011-03-14, 08:54 PM
I can't help but think of how interesting it would be combined with Factotum or Fighter. The option for Paladin sounds like fun

flabort
2011-03-14, 10:19 PM
Question:
How would the class work in gestalt?
Would both sides get the features of one class, JUST the "normal" half get the features of one class, or each side getting a class each?
Cause a barbarian that turns into a wizard is too awesome to imagine.

The Giant
2011-03-14, 11:21 PM
Question:
How would the class work in gestalt?
Would both sides get the features of one class, JUST the "normal" half get the features of one class, or each side getting a class each?
Cause a barbarian that turns into a wizard is too awesome to imagine.

Well, I thought this was answered with the new multiclass feats, but...

If you're a gestalt champion, your avatar has the same number of Hit Dice, BAB, etc. that it always does, as if you were single-classed. This may mean that you lose half of all your stuff when in avatar form, so there are now special feats that you can take when multiclassing or gestalting. If you have one of those feats, your avatar has as many Hit Dice as you have combined champion + (whatever class the feat is for) levels, even if both classes are on different "sides" of the gestalt. The caveat is that your avatar cannot have more Hit Dice than you have character levels +4.

So, if you're a 10th level wizard//10th level champion gestalt, you would turn into a 14 HD avatar, and if you were a 10th level wizard//7th level rogue//3rd level champion, you would turn into a 7 HD avatar. The extra hit dice compensate for the power you're giving up by not being able to use all of your tricks all of the time.

Now, this does mean that someone could still do the crazy "Avatar with higher Int than the wizard who casts spells all the time" trick we were discussing before, but it's gestalt. So screw it. If DMs don't want weird power trips, they shouldn't play gestalt in the first place.

flabort
2011-03-15, 01:15 PM
I more meant since the avatar gets different feats than the character, would the avatar get a different "other side" gestalt class, but OK, makes sense. I guess. :smallconfused:

The Giant
2011-03-15, 04:00 PM
I more meant since the avatar gets different feats than the character, would the avatar get a different "other side" gestalt class, but OK, makes sense. I guess. :smallconfused:

No, the avatar would not get a different "other side" gestalt. They wouldn't need it. They already have the best Hit Dice, the best BAB, and two good saves, and the new feats let them cast spells or sneak attack if they have that, too, as well as potentially having more Hit Dice than the character has levels. That's more than enough.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-18, 12:06 AM
Mr. Burlew, you may or may not be aware of my Harrowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148) project, which has been ongoing for some time on these forums. One poster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10572837&postcount=87) has expressed an inspiration for a Harrowed/Champion concept, and I wanted to ask you a couple of things about such an idea:

1. Do you mind if I clean up the multiclass feat and incorporate it into the Harrowed?

2. Would you care, either personally or legally, if such a multiclass concept received PrC support?

The Harrowed is my baby and I want very much to support it with as many options as possible, so I look forward to hearing from you!

The Giant
2011-03-18, 01:06 AM
Mr. Burlew, you may or may not be aware of my Harrowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148) project, which has been ongoing for some time on these forums. One poster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10572837&postcount=87) has expressed an inspiration for a Harrowed/Champion concept, and I wanted to ask you a couple of things about such an idea:

1. Do you mind if I clean up the multiclass feat and incorporate it into the Harrowed?

2. Would you care, either personally or legally, if such a multiclass concept received PrC support?

The Harrowed is my baby and I want very much to support it with as many options as possible, so I look forward to hearing from you!

All of the articles are released as Open Game Content, for anyone to do with as they will, within the same boundaries as you would observe for any other third-party material.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-18, 01:09 AM
All of the articles are released as Open Game Content, for anyone to do with as they will, within the same boundaries as you would observe for any other third-party material.

Excellent! Next question: would you have any recommendations for what features a multiclass feat advances? I'm at a loss, frankly, and I'm less familiar with your work than I'd like to be.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-18, 08:13 AM
My main worry is an arcane spellcaster with Dragonblooded Avatar. Apart from the reshuffling there's still those 4 ability improvements at first level, which could be put into their spellcasting score. And the avatar's d12/full BAB chassis is more of a boost to a wizard or sorcerer than any other class. Then there's the matter that while the other feats give the avatar access to some of your other class features, Dragonblooded Avatar gives a sorcerer/champion all of them.


Well, I'll be honest that this never occurred to me, mostly because it would be violating the spirit of the class horribly, which is that the champion is the smart one and the avatar is a big dumb brute.
I actually requested a game purely so I could do that. :smalleek:

I didn't put all my points into Int though. It seemed too easy. It was also before the multiclass feats, so I had to request a game where the DM would let the Avatar have their own gestalt. It means I can roleplay a very physical character with a possessing guardian spirit of great magic!
It's undoubtably highly abusable, but my casters tend to be dedicated blasters and I've never made a Wizard before. Anyway. Fun. Thought this might interest someone.

boomwolf
2011-03-18, 09:31 AM
All of the articles are released as Open Game Content, for anyone to do with as they will, within the same boundaries as you would observe for any other third-party material.

That's quite nice to hear, I was pondering on a spin-off of the champion for a while now but was afraid you might find it offensive to do such.

In case you wonder I'm planning on a "evil" variation, where the "Champion" is a "Host" and the "Avatar" is a "Possession" of sorts that fights over for control. you CAN use the "Possession" power as much as you want, but you might lose control (similar to frenzy)

Naturally abilities will differ a little to represent it more violent nature (and non-divine origin...)


On another note entirely-the Champion class is a brilliant work, and I personally took it more then once into a game, and I had a great time with it.

The Giant
2011-03-19, 12:57 AM
I'm glad to hear everyone's enjoying the class, and the update of it. I thought of some ideas for Champion spells on the drive home and wrote them up, if anyone's interested:

Might of the Avatar
Transmutation (Good)
Level: Champion 1
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 attack (see below)

You may cast this spell as an immediate action when you make a melee attack (even if it is an attack of opportunity). Your attack is made as if your base Strength score was that of your avatar (plus any spells or magic items that currently enhance your Strength). The spell ends after you make one attack with it, whether you hit or miss.


Flight of the Avatar
Transmutation (Good)
Level: Champion 2
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 move action.

When you cast this spell, you can immediately take one move action, even if it's not your turn. During this action, you can fly with the same speed and maneuverability that your avatar can. You could, for example, cast this spell as an immediate reaction to being bull rushed off of a cliff and fly back to safety. You can take this action in the middle of another creature's turn, but not in the middle of one of its actions. Thus, you could fly away from a creature after it has moved adjacent to you and before it attacks—but not if it charges, because the attack at the end of the charge is considered part of the same full-round action.


Heart of the Avatar
Necromancy (Good)
Level: Champion 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instantaneous

You may cast this spell in reaction to any weapon, natural weapon, or touch attack spell. All hit point damage, ability drain, ability damage, disease, energy drain, or poison from the attack are transferred to the avatar instead, who suffers the hit point loss from his pool of hit points (but is immune to the other listed effects). Any other effect that might be transferred with the same attack still affects you as normal, such as a touch spell that does not inflict damage or any of the listed effects, like plane shift or touch of fatigue.


Summon Avatar
Conjuration (Summoning, Good)
Level: Champion 4
Components: V, DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned avatar
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

When you cast this spell, you summon your avatar—not by changing into him, but by calling him forth in a separate temporary body. Your avatar has all the same ability scores, feats, skills, and resistances it normally has, but it cannot use any class abilities from other classes you may normally be able to use in avatar form (i.e. those usable due to a feat like Divine Avatar). The avatar comes equipped with nonmagical copies of all of your equipment, including your avatar weapon in its avatar shape. While this spell is in effect, the weapon you have chosen as your avatar weapon loses all magical power. Any and all magical abilities are transferred to the avatar's reshaped weapon instead, just as if you had transformed while wielding it. If you have the Greater Avatar Weapon class ability, the weapon also gains additional powers from that, as normal.
-----While your avatar is present, you are in full control of his actions, just as if he were you. Both your avatar and champion bodies may take a normal amount of actions each round; your avatar can even act immediately upon being summoned. If you have any feat that grants a special effect when you transform into your avatar, that effect comes into play when the avatar is summoned (centered on the space where it appears). You may communicate telepathically with your avatar as long as you both remain on the same plane. You may not assume avatar form yourself while this spell is active, nor may you mentally direct any healing that targets you to be applied to your avatar (though it can be healed normally). The summoned avatar is treated as a summoned creature for all purposes. For example, it cannot enter a magic circle against good and it can be targeted by banishment.
-----When the spell ends, either because its duration elapsed or you dismissed the spell, the avatar and all of its equipment disappears. Any effect that normally comes into play when you change back to champion form occurs at that time, centered on the avatar's location.
-----While this spell has obvious utility in combat, allowing the champion to effectively double his actions per round, it is also often used to allay suspicions that the champion and the avatar are the same person.

I think I'll go add these to the feat post in the other thread.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-19, 12:59 AM
Excellent! Next question: would you have any recommendations for what features a multiclass feat advances? I'm at a loss, frankly, and I'm less familiar with your work than I'd like to be.

Reposting due to frustrating lack of my own ideas.

The Giant
2011-03-19, 01:02 AM
Reposting due to frustrating lack of my own ideas.

Sorry, I'm not really going to read your class, digest it, and evaluate what would be best to use. You'll have to work that out on your own. In general, I picked the abilities that advance with level and are the "calling card" abilities of the class.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-19, 01:03 AM
Sorry, I'm not really going to read your class, digest it, and evaluate what would be best to use. You'll have to work that out on your own. In general, I picked the abilities that advance with level and are the "calling card" abilities of the class.

Ah, you misunderstand - I meant for the Champion. I have ideas on the Harrowed end of things, but the Avatar is really, REALLY weak without his class-feature advancements to back 'im up.

The Giant
2011-03-19, 01:12 AM
Ah, you misunderstand - I meant for the Champion. I have ideas on the Harrowed end of things, but the Avatar is really, REALLY weak without his class-feature advancements to back 'im up.

If you're trying to create a feat that enables a character to "dip" into champion and still get a progression of benefits from it, I'm not going to help you. I don't think such a feat should exist. The only reason I created the existing multiclass feats was to help someone who was either a 50-50 multiclass, or a champion who was flavoring with another class.

If you have a feat that allows a multiclassed character to use their existing Homebrew Class X Shtick when an avatar, and doesn't penalize the avatar's stats for having levels in Homebrew Class X, then that's all you need. If that's too weak for you, well, no one's pointing a gun at your head and telling you to play that character. It seems like the player in question is fine with that being enough, though.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-19, 01:14 AM
Hrm. I'll ponder it for awhile, be back with whatever feat I come up with. The main conflict in my head is mostly flavor at the moment. Thank'ee much, Mr. Burlew.

Alfray Stryke
2011-03-22, 06:48 AM
If I may, it says the avatar gains a feat for every 3 character level you possess, in E6 you stop leveling and only gain feats after level 6, thus would these feats apply to both the champion and avatar or just the champion?

If the latter would you say the avatar should get a feat for every x feats the champion has past level 6 or should the character just take the Avatar Training feat?

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-22, 06:57 AM
If I may, it says the avatar gains a feat for every 3 character level you possess, in E6 you stop leveling and only gain feats after level 6, thus would these feats apply to both the champion and avatar or just the champion?

If the latter would you say the avatar should get a feat for every x feats the champion has past level 6 or should the character just take the Avatar Training feat?

A further interesting question is if a player wanted to invest in a martial PrC for the avatar....

Alfray Stryke
2011-03-22, 07:03 AM
I'd suggest writing a feat along similar lines to Divine Avatar or Dragonblooded Avatar, to allow the avatar to use maneuvers and stack the martial class with the champion class for purposes of determining your avatar's Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throws, and skill points.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-22, 07:05 AM
I'd suggest writing a feat along similar lines to Divine Avatar or Dragonblooded Avatar, to allow the avatar to use maneuvers and stack the martial class with the champion class for purposes of determining your avatar's Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throws, and skill points.

Oh, geez, sorry - I mean a warrior-type PrC, not necessarily an initiator.