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atomicmatt3
2006-03-27, 07:36 PM
Hello, everyone!

I was just thumbing through my Monster Manual, taking a look at the Tarrasque. Ah, the Invincible Tarrasque! So strong there is only one in existance! Not only is it next to impossible to hit, but even if you DO hit it, it regenerates forty hit points a turn! And don't even TRY magic: if you do, it has a thirty percent chance of flying right back at you! Even if you DO manage to bring the thing down, it will get right back up unless you wish it to STAY dead! And, naturally, it has a CR of 20...

And, when you turn the page, you'll see the Titan. Wow, big guy with hammer and magic. And half the HP of a Tarrasque. Yip-py. But look at it's challenge rating...Twenty one.

Now, I was just wondering...how, for the love of Pelor is a lowly Titan a twenty-freaking-one, while the almighty Tarrasque just a twenty? Could somebody explain this to me?

And don't even get me started on the Leviathan...

So yeah. If anybody could help me out with this, it would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advanced...

Splendor
2006-03-27, 07:46 PM
Cause a 18th level lich would have no problem killing it. But he would have problems with the titan.

The Tarrasque has an SR of 32. Greater spell penetration +4 Now I have to roll a 10 to effect it with a death spell. Then wish it dead.
A titan is a 20th level fighter and a 20th level spellcaster rolled into one. Its smart, and will use its magical items.

I can't just fly out of its reach and kill it.

atomicmatt3
2006-03-27, 07:50 PM
Oh...I didn't see it that way. Hm.

In that case, I WILL get into the Leviathan.

Why is it's five CR higher than the Tarrasque? (You can find the Leviathan in the MMII!)

(Note: I get the sneaking suspicion that my MMII is out of date, but I don't have any proof to back this up. If anybody has a recent version of the MMII, tell me what the Leviathan's CR is, and why on EARTH it is five levels higher than the Tarrasque...)

Jarlax
2006-03-27, 07:53 PM
LOL you want somthing to fear? try the lvl 40+ chars being run at my local store. one guy wants to use a Tarrasque as a MOUNT.

Godhand
2006-03-27, 07:58 PM
Please tell me they didn't make the Tarrasque able to die by death spells. Besides, most of the spells shooting at it bounce off, when you unleash a fireball only to watch it fly away in the other direction, thats annoying.

But whenever I use the Tarrasque, I scratched out the wish dead thing. Doesn't matter how hard you try, you just gotta let the beast go on it's rampage. In my mind, it's the unstoppable force, you REALLY can't kill it.

Splendor
2006-03-27, 07:58 PM
Why is it's five CR higher than the Tarrasque? (You can find the Leviathan in the MMII!)
No clue... I guess they think someone fighting it would worry about drowning. But its a 3.0 book and not a 3.5.


Besides, most of the spells shooting at it bounce off
Rays, lines and cones bounce off. Fireballs work just fine.

Ya wana have some fun. Through your 18+ level party at a greater cadaver collector see if they can win.

Abd al-Azrad
2006-03-27, 07:58 PM
I WILL get into the Leviathan.
Why is it's five CR higher than the Tarrasque? (You can find the Leviathan in the MMII!)

Have you ever run a successful underwater battle? Players can't see beyond the exact range of their light spells, breathe only through magic, cast silent spells or none at all, and have a swim speed like a struggling raccoon in a burlap sack. Various items (pearl of the sirines, ioun stones) and spells (water breathing, polymorph) HELP you fight underwater. The Leviathan comes up from beneath you, grapples you, and then swims down until you are crushed to death. No one can catch up to it, and teleporting underwater... well, let's just say that it all looks the same.

Also, SR 36 (which is somewhat hard to break for a 20th-level caster, who isn't massively munchkined), DR 10/-, which helps it out against all weapon attacks (which, by the way, always hit its pathetic AC 22).

It has weaknesses, granted- its AC gives it very little survivability, and it can't regenerate. And its Will save is pathetic for a CR 25. I'm not saying 25 is the right CR for the thing, but remember that it's a hard thing to fight if it gets the drop on an unprepared party travelling overseas.


Through your 18+ level party at a greater cadaver collector see if they can win.

Those things are somewhat ridiculous to throw at regular PCs. Ones that can't beat its grapple modifiers.

Splendor
2006-03-27, 08:06 PM
Pearl of the sirines takes care of water pressure, casting spells, and movement. *
Leviathan can only see as far underwater as a character can.
And their will save is only +13.
20 level + spell penetration: +24 I now have to roll a 12.
A touch of idiocy can drop its INT to 0. At 0 INT you go unconscious. Leviathans, being air breathers will float. How long does it take to kill it now?

atomicmatt3
2006-03-27, 08:07 PM
Have you ever run a successful underwater battle? Players can't see beyond the exact range of their light spells, breathe only through magic, cast silent spells or none at all, and have a swim speed like a struggling raccoon in a burlap sack. Various items (pearl of the sirines, ioun stones) and spells (water breathing, polymorph) HELP you fight underwater. The Leviathan comes up from beneath you, grapples you, and then swims down until you are crushed to death. No one can catch up to it, and teleporting underwater... well, let's just say that it all looks the same.

Well, I sorta figured the same Lich that death'D my Tarrasque would "Fly" over the Leviathan and death it as well. But, I see your point, I guess. But I didn't think CR was based off the area that the monster usually hangs out in. I mean, would "Weaky Mc. Weak" have a high CR if his habitat was the Spiked Fields of Acid?


Ya wana have some fun. Through your 18+ level party at a greater cadaver collector see if they can win.

>_> I think the Tarrasque beats the Spiky Robot. But I always thought the Cadaver Collector was pretty cool anyway...

Splendor
2006-03-27, 08:10 PM
A touch of idiocy can drop its INT to 0. At 0 INT you go unconscious.

Wow.... I guess I'd kill the Tarrasque the same way.

John_D
2006-03-27, 08:20 PM
Please tell me they didn't make the Tarrasque able to die by death spells.

Not exactly... if the Tarrasque fails its save versus a "die instantly" type of spell, its nonlethal damage total instantly gets raised to the point where you can cast wish or miracle to keep it dead.

atomicmatt3
2006-03-27, 08:26 PM
A touch of idiocy can drop its INT to 0. At 0 INT you go unconscious.

If you KO a Tarrasque in that fashion, can you Wish it dead?

PhoeKun
2006-03-27, 08:36 PM
If you KO a Tarrasque in that fashion, can you Wish it dead?

No. You have to raise its non-lethal damage to 868, then cast wish. No other forms of killing the Tarrasque work.

Also, those death spells assume the Tarrasque and its +38 Fort Save fail against your save DC. So you've got a 5% chance each round with that strategy.

Thuryl
2006-03-27, 08:37 PM
Hey, it's unconscious. If the DM rules that it has to be in negative HP for you to actually wish it dead, you can always CDG it until it *does* go into negative HP.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-03-27, 08:37 PM
If you KO a Tarrasque in that fashion, can you Wish it dead?
No. *You need to drop it to -30 hp before you can use wish. *Using a death effect achieves this. *Touch of idiocy does not.

Correction is in later post (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1143502593 ;start=15#23)

Rigeld2
2006-03-27, 08:42 PM
From Touch of Idiocy:

With a touch, you reduce the target’s mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can’t reduce any of these scores below 1.

So it wont work. Plus, its a touch attack, and theres all sorts of reasons touching a Mr.T doesnt work well.

Tomada
2006-03-27, 08:43 PM
Cause a 18th level lich would have no problem killing it. But he would have problems with the titan.

The Tarrasque has an SR of 32. Greater spell penetration +4 Now I have to roll a 10 to effect it with a death spell. Then wish it dead.
A titan is a 20th level fighter and a 20th level spellcaster rolled into one. Its smart, and will use its magical items.

I can't just fly out of its reach and kill it.

Ok, AND you need it to fail it's FORTITUDE SAVE. wich, with it's +38 will not be very easy.

If you use a 9th level spell and have a 30 at your relevant atribute, that means that the tarrasque has only a chance to fail on a botch. And he can save his SR.

The chance you can affect the tarrasque this way is just a 2.5%, wich is quite slin.

Tomada
2006-03-27, 08:45 PM
No. You have to raise its non-lethal damage to 868, then cast wish. No other forms of killing the Tarrasque work.

Also, those death spells assume the Tarrasque and its +38 Fort Save fail against your save DC. So you've got a 5% chance each round with that strategy.


don't forget it has 50% chance of blocking it with his SR

tgva8889
2006-03-27, 08:46 PM
Wouldn't you have to raise it's non-lethal damage to 868 and keep it there, since it regenerates 40 every round? Just checking.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-27, 08:46 PM
yeah, seriously. Death spells from an 18th level caster are pretty unlikely to work without some major DC boosting effects. Not to mention you've got to deal with the fact that any spell (with greater spell penetration) has a 50% chance of not working from SR alone. Then factor in the problem that the save DC for your death spell is probably only about 36 max (assuming heightened to level 9, improved spell focus (necromancy) and Int of 40) meaning the tarrasque still has to roll a 1 to fail the save.

The 'fly out of it's reach' strategy will keep you sucessfully alive (assuming you aren't caught by surpise or lose initiative) but considering it's immune to something like 60-75% of the core book's damage dealing spells, has massive saves, and regen 40 it's quite easy for a tarrasque to absorb the entire spells/day of an 18th level wizard without coming close to dying.

The only viable option at that level is mind-affecting spells...which I'm shocked it's not immune to. but even dropping it's int score isn't likely to kill it, unless you've got a full party with epic weapons at least. you still have to deal with it's massive passive defenses.

tgva8889
2006-03-27, 08:49 PM
We still haven't answered why the heck it's a CR 20 encounter. I'm just as confused as the others.

I'm pretty sure a Touch of Idiocy would hurt it a bit, cause Int 1 is the same intelligence as a toad. And we ALL know how intelligent those are.

So how the heck do you kill a Tarrasque? Stand inside it's stomach with a +5 Frost Flaming Burst Lightning Burst Dagger and hit it over and over until it's dead??

atomicmatt3
2006-03-27, 08:51 PM
So how the heck do you kill a Tarrasque? Stand inside it's stomach with a +5 Frost Flaming Burst Lightning Burst Dagger and hit it over and over until it's dead??

Uh...I think it's immune to fire, so Flaming wouldn't help either.

But a +5 Frost Flaming Burst Lighting Burst Dagger would be pretty pimpin' anyway.

***Oh, and it occures to me, If you had a Brilliant Energy weapon, Power Attack and crazy epic-level BAB, you might be able to take it down. But I mean, CRAZY epic level BAB...

And would Vorpal Weapons work?

Tomada
2006-03-27, 08:52 PM
yeah, seriously. Death spells from an 18th level caster are pretty unlikely to work without some major DC boosting effects. Not to mention you've got to deal with the fact that any spell (with greater spell penetration) has a 50% chance of not working from SR alone. Then factor in the problem that the save DC for your death spell is probably only about 36 max (assuming heightened to level 9, improved spell focus (necromancy) and Int of 40) meaning the tarrasque still has to roll a 1 to fail the save.

The 'fly out of it's reach' strategy will keep you sucessfully alive (assuming you aren't caught by surpise or lose initiative) but considering it's immune to something like 60-75% of the core book's damage dealing spells, has massive saves, and regen 40 it's quite easy for a tarrasque to absorb the entire spells/day of an 18th level wizard without coming close to dying.

The only viable option at that level is mind-affecting spells...which I'm shocked it's not immune to. but even dropping it's int score isn't likely to kill it, unless you've got a full party with epic weapons at least. you still have to deal with it's massive passive defenses.

Even that crazy caster using mind affecting spells, using a 9th level one still has 40% of affecting him.
And even an unmoving tarrasque is HARD to kill

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-03-27, 08:53 PM
Wouldn't you have to raise it's non-lethal damage to 868 and keep it there, since it regenerates 40 every round? Just checking.
Oh, yeah. I'm getting my edition wires crossed.

You need to dead 868 nonlethal damage, then use the wish.

And a successful death spell puts it at 868. Touch of idiocy does not.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-27, 08:53 PM
Int 1 is the same as most animals (1-2 range), won't really affect a creature like the tarrasque at all (2 points of int loss doesn't mean it doesn't know how to bite you).

The tarrasque really isn't meant to be a '20th level characters can kill it' encounter, 20th leve characters might be able to survive or defeat it however, but probably not without at least one death.

The titan, I honestly have no clue why they're so powerful, they're not even as strong as they used to be when they had a 20th level spellcasting class.

tgva8889
2006-03-27, 08:55 PM
Wait, how much does a +5 Frost Flaming Burst Lighting Burst Dagger do? That's 1d4+5, +1d6 Cold, +1d6 Fire, +1d6 Lightning, plus Strength, plus if a critical, +1d10 Fire and +1d10 Lightning. Assuming you can't sneak attack a stomach, thats:

1d4+5+1d6+1d6+1d6+Strength Bonus, +1d10+1d10 if critical.

You're right, that would be cool. What ability could you replace Flaming Burst with other than Frost Burst?

Edit: Pump up your Tarrasque's CR with these templates today!
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20051109a

atomicmatt3
2006-03-27, 09:16 PM
Oh, you forgot Corrosive (from the DMG2!) and...uhm, I'm sure there is a "Sound Burst" somewhere... You could have like, a Sword of Elemential Mastery!

But that is niether here nor there. I think it has been proven that, with it's insane Fort save, the Tarrasque is effectively immune to almost all non-epic level Death spells. Which brings us back to the ORIGINAL debate: how is a Titan stronger than a Tarrasque? I realize that it is easier to stay AWAY from a Tarrasque, but I assumed that the CR was how easy it is to take the thing DOWN, not mearly flee from it...

John_D
2006-03-27, 09:17 PM
...assuming you can't sneak attack a stomach...

I'm almost certain you can't. While the target obviously has no chance to dodge the hit, you can't discern any viable weak points from inside the stomach.

Darkie
2006-03-27, 09:26 PM
In my mind, it's the unstoppable force, you REALLY can't kill it.Eh, that's only because your default mentality is on the power level most people are on, not the ultra high level stuff a few indulge in.
;)

Orion-the-G
2006-03-27, 09:27 PM
yes, with epic powers the tarrasque does fall in the 'killable' range. I've done it but only with a decent team and 25 character levels under my belt.

Rigeld2
2006-03-27, 10:20 PM
yes, with epic powers the tarrasque does fall in the 'killable' range. I've done it but only with a decent team and 25 character levels under my belt.


We've had Mr.T kill threads before. Its not that hard to do it (psst.. there are lots of spells that ignore SR and do damage, and Mr.T doesnt fly)

The White Knight
2006-03-27, 11:18 PM
I'm almost certain you can't. While the target obviously has no chance to dodge the hit, you can't discern any viable weak points from inside the stomach.

Uhhh... take my kidneys anyday, just don't stab me in the stomach. If anything's grounds for sneak attack damage, it's the tummy.

Now I'm sure Mr. T has an adamantine stomach, but still. Ouch. :P

Spuddly
2006-03-27, 11:43 PM
A Titan can cast chain lightning as a spell like ability as a free action with a caster level of 20. That's seems pretty core.x.core to me.

They can also assume the form of a small or medium humanoid with which to jump your party.

With an Int of 21 and a Wis of 28, the Titan can be out thinking pretty much anyone on your team, save the casters.

Jack Mann
2006-03-27, 11:56 PM
Well, if you know where to find an allip, taking out the Tarrasque isn't too difficult. Just lure it over there. Allips drain wisdom with every attack. It's a touch attack, too. Since it's supernatural, spell resistance doesn't apply. And they're incorporeal, so the Tarrasque can't hit them. Three points of wisdom drain later, and the Tarrasque is in a permanent coma. Take out the allip, and you can live on Tarrasque steaks for the rest of your life, provided no one tries casting a restoration spell on the beastie.

Tomada
2006-03-28, 12:21 AM
Well, if you know where to find an allip, taking out the Tarrasque isn't too difficult. Just lure it over there. Allips drain wisdom with every attack. It's a touch attack, too. Since it's supernatural, spell resistance doesn't apply. And they're incorporeal, so the Tarrasque can't hit them. Three points of wisdom drain later, and the Tarrasque is in a permanent coma. Take out the allip, and you can live on Tarrasque steaks for the rest of your life, provided no one tries casting a restoration spell on the beastie.


And if the tarrasque runs?

Jack Mann
2006-03-28, 12:27 AM
So long as the allip perceives the Tarrasque as an enemy, it won't do any good. *Allips have a flight speed of 30 ft. (perfect). *Tarrasques move at 20 ft.

EDIT: The tarrasque, rather. There being only the one.

Steward
2006-03-28, 12:28 AM
And if the tarrasque runs?

Then you've just succeeded in putting the fear of God in an unstoppable god-beast. Congratulations!

Spuddly
2006-03-28, 12:30 AM
Wow. An allip would be the way to go, and it's only a 3HD undead, too. A relatively low level necromancer could command one.

Tomada
2006-03-28, 12:38 AM
Wow. An allip would be the way to go, and it's only a 3HD undead, too. A relatively low level necromancer could command one.


Or you can be a 3rd level Master of Shrouds (dfenders of the faith, don't know if it got converted) and summon allips to you!

Tomada
2006-03-28, 12:38 AM
So long as the allip perceives the Tarrasque as an enemy, it won't do any good. Allips have a flight speed of 30 ft. (perfect). Tarrasques move at 20 ft.

EDIT: The tarrasque, rather. There being only the one.


The Tarrasque can RUN. And
Rush (Ex)

Once per minute, the normally slow-moving tarrasque can move at a speed of 150 feet.

Jack Mann
2006-03-28, 12:55 AM
Ah, right, forgot about that. Still, this assumes that A) the tarrasque is able to figure out that it's in danger and B) that it figures this out before the allip reduces its wisdom to zero. There's a fifty/fifty chance it manages it in one hit.

Spuddly
2006-03-28, 12:56 AM
Well, I just meant a necromancer as any class that used necromancy. Cleric, Wizard, Sorceror, PrC from splatbook X, etc.

And you know why a Tarrasque has only a CR of 20? Because, despite it's badassery, it's still a dumb, dumb creature. Set up a bunch of illusions with allips near them. All it takes is 14 hits (all of which hitting is practically guaranteed) to put the Tarrasque in a coma.

A Tarrasque running away is 1) unlikely and 2) easy to overcome.

Spuddly
2006-03-28, 12:57 AM
There's a fifty/fifty chance it manages it in one hit.

Uh, an allip does 1d4 wis damage and a tarrasque has 14 wis.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-28, 01:06 AM
I don't think most of these plans actually serve to reduce the challenge rating of the tarrasque, they simply show that with a knowledge of the monster manual, and months of preparation (if not more) to find both the tarrasque and an allip (or creating one) that you can control and transporting one to the other then having them fight it out. Shadows (or just about half the incorporeal undead) would work out okay too, so long as you had plenty of them (even with 50% incorporeal miss chance you'll lose a few to the tarrasque's number of attacks)


We've had Mr.T kill threads before. Its not that hard to do it (psst.. there are lots of spells that ignore SR and do damage, and Mr.T doesnt fly)

I know he's killable at a lot lower level than I described, that's just the only way I've taken him on myself.

Jack Mann
2006-03-28, 01:10 AM
Dammit. *For some reason, I was thinking its wisdom was the same as it intelligence. *Still, the basic concept is sound.

EDIT: Well, if you're an evil spellcaster, and your DM allows Heroes of Horror, you can always cast Summon Undead IV.

Sacrath
2006-03-28, 01:15 AM
Wow. An allip would be the way to go, and it's only a 3HD undead, too. A relatively low level necromancer could command one.

Ah, the allip solution. It's great except that under the long list of immunities Mr. T has immunity to ability damage. So no Touch of Idiocy or Allips for you.


...imunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage...

However, Titans are pansies.

Nahal
2006-03-28, 01:17 AM
So essentially all it takes to bring the Tarrasque down is a shapechange spell and some high-level rodeo clowns, be they real or illusory. Oh dear god, I think I've just found an epic-level sport:

The Tarrasque Rodeo! See if your fighter/monk/whatever can maintain a grapple for 8 rounds! Our staff of shapechanged wizards keep the beast out cold while you establish a hold, then our clerics restore it and turn it loose, with you hanging on for dear life! Being swallowed is grounds for immediate disqualification.

Jack Mann
2006-03-28, 01:18 AM
Allips don't do ability damage. They do ability drain. That's a whole different barrel of monkeys.

Darkie
2006-03-28, 01:23 AM
Ability Score Loss (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss)
Ability Damage

This attack damages an opponent’s ability score. The creature’s descriptive text gives the ability and the amount of damage. If an attack that causes ability damage scores a critical hit, it deals twice the indicated amount of damage (if the damage is expressed as a die range, roll two dice).

Points lost to ability damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets complete bed rest) to each damaged ability, and the spells lesser restoration and restoration offset ability damage as well.

Ability Drain

This effect permanently reduces a living opponent’s ability score when the creature hits with a melee attack. The creature’s descriptive text gives the ability and the amount drained. If an attack that causes ability drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the indicated amount (if the damage is expressed as a die range, roll two dice). Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) whenever it drains an ability score no matter how many points it drains. Temporary hit points gained in this fashion last for a maximum of 1 hour.

Some ability drain attacks allow a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). If no saving throw is mentioned, none is allowed.

Points lost to ability drain, is permanent, though restoration can restore even those lost ability score points.
Jack's right.

bosssmiley
2006-03-28, 03:01 AM
So essentially all it takes to bring the Tarrasque down is a shapechange spell and some high-level rodeo clowns, be they real or illusory. Oh dear god, I think I've just found an epic-level sport:

The Tarrasque Rodeo! See if your fighter/monk/whatever can maintain a grapple for 8 rounds! Our staff of shapechanged wizards keep the beast out cold while you establish a hold, then our clerics restore it and turn it loose, with you hanging on for dear life! Being swallowed is grounds for immediate disqualification.

;D

Sign me up!

"Yeeeeeee-haw!"

Ikkitosen
2006-03-28, 05:50 AM
As for T vs. T, the Tarrasque has no tactics, you can fight it on your terms. You'll find it ravaging a nearby village and can prepare all you like. That genius titan, if he gets wind of your agression with his divinations and uber mental stats, will use all the tactics under the sun. He'll teleport (or something) in while you're resting, under silence, and repeatedly ass whoop you into oblivion whilst under every buff the cleric list has. He'll attack and retreat, he'll use terrain and aliies and lots of other things a tarrasque wouldn't.

It's like the difference between fighting a dragon that's asleep on his hoard when you enter and one that knows you're coming...

Imrix.
2006-03-28, 08:04 AM
Of course, then there's the Simulacrum answer. Make two Tarrasque Simulacrums, cast Improved Invisibility on both. Do the math, they'll win. Then, you leave one pounding away on it, and it should never get up. But it keeps regenerating, so you can chop bits off to sell it.

Getting a piece in the first place isn't too hard, just make copious use of non-detection spells and invisibility and all sorts.

I wonder what the stats of Tarrasque Hide Armour would be?

Azrael
2006-03-28, 09:17 AM
The Tarrasque Rodeo! See if your fighter/monk/whatever can maintain a grapple for 8 rounds! Our staff of shapechanged wizards keep the beast out cold while you establish a hold, then our clerics restore it and turn it loose, with you hanging on for dear life! Being swallowed is grounds for immediate disqualification.

Azrael's Ridiculously Complex Tarrasque Killing Method:

1) Have a Shifter (Master of Many Forms now)
2) Have them turn into a Dire Elephant
3) Buff the Crap out of them
4) Have them grapple the tarrasque
5) Kill away

I've left out most of the detail. But, if you're clever you can fill in the gaps ;) We did it with a ~17th lvl party. And honestly, that about what you should expect -- a really good, full magic, well built party can handle CRs of lvl +3. Especially when they have buff time and the ambush.

AtomicKitKat
2006-03-28, 11:54 AM
Well, at least the Shadowdancer isn't totally useless anymore. ;D

Falkus
2006-03-28, 12:57 PM
Allips don't do ability damage. They do ability drain. That's a whole different barrel of monkeys.

Only by a very literal and anal understanding of the rules.

Hadrian_Emrys
2006-03-28, 01:02 PM
If a DM is sending godzilla after you, odds are they mean it.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-03-28, 01:28 PM
Only by a very literal and anal understanding of the rules.
We're hardly picking miniscule details here. Look at Jeff's post above. That quote is directly from the SRD. Two different descriptions, each with several paragraphs, describing two very different abilities.

Ability Drain =/= Ability Damage by any reading of the rules. If immunity to one was also meant to imply immunity to the other, why does the description of the Undead creature type (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterTypes.html#undead) explicitly specify both?

Azrael
2006-03-28, 02:20 PM
Amen to that (^). It is certainly NOT semantics when to two have very specific, very seperate descriptions in the rules.

You wouldn't lump Sneak Attack and Skirmish together that way. Although they're both 'precision' damage bonuses, the differences are by no means trivial.

Lysander
2006-03-28, 02:26 PM
Just curious, could a Tarrasque survive wading through a lava flow? Could tricking it into walking into one of those do the trick?

Also, the Tarrasque can drown right? Could you somehow attach it to something heavy and lead it into the ocean?

PhoeKun
2006-03-28, 02:27 PM
Well, its immune to fire damage, so yes.

Lysander
2006-03-28, 02:28 PM
Doh.

But it can drown? I haven't read up on the Tarrasque since the last kill the Tarrasque thread we had.

prometheusx
2006-03-28, 02:29 PM
Yes. Immunity to fire = immunity to lava or magma damage, per DMG page 304. Can still drown, but you said he's only wading.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-03-28, 02:32 PM
Just curious, could a Tarrasque survive wading through a lava flow? Could tricking it into walking into one of those do the trick?
Wading through lava? *The Tarrasque will survive.

From the SRD:

An immunity or resistance to fire serves as an immunity to lava or magma. However, a creature immune to fire might still drown if completely immersed in lava (see Drowning, below).

The tarrasque is immune to fire, and therefore immune to lava.


Also, the Tarrasque can drown right? Could you somehow attach it to something heavy and lead it into the ocean?
The Tarrasque can drown. *As a magical beast, it needs to breathe, and its regeneration does not protect it from suffocation.

PhoeKun
2006-03-28, 02:38 PM
He can drown, but he's got a Con score of 35, so it can hold its breath for 70 rounds before it even has to make its first Constitution check.

Now, on the subject of ability damage vs ability drain: The two are treated as separate things, requiring separate immunities, just like the deities have.

Thiel
2006-03-28, 03:19 PM
Cast fly on it and dump it in the sea ;D

PhoeKun
2006-03-28, 03:21 PM
Fly would give the Tarrasque control over its own movement in the air.

Oh dear gods... a flying Tarrasque... [shudder]

Imrix.
2006-03-28, 04:14 PM
That's why you cast Simulacram twice. Can be done by around level 13...

PhoeKun
2006-03-28, 04:30 PM
So... can I have the details on how you cast a spell with a range of zero feat and a casting time of 12 hours on the Tarrasque?

Cause if you're doing it while it's sleeping, there are far less theatrical methods of getting the job done...

edit: never mind. You can't do it at all. You need to be at caster level 24 just to get the spell to work on Big T.

Vonriel
2006-03-28, 04:47 PM
If you're looking for ways to kill a tarrasque, well, this (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dkb1/dnd/tarrasque.txt) page has a few suggestions on it that sounds pretty good (barring the godawful "Macross" bard one) on how to do just that at ~13th level. Have at it *;D

As for why the Titan is more powerful than a Tarrasque? I think it was described pretty well by Ikkitosen; a Tarrasque is basically a destruction machine ("RAR! BLARGH BLARGH BLARGH! RAR RAR! BLARGHITTY BLARGH-BLARG!!") which eats anything and everything in its path - including most small mountains. That which it can't eat, it bashes with its skull (doesn't it have a gore attack? hehe, imagine that one if you need a funny image *;)) until it's destroyed. The Titan.. well, I couldn't find an entry for it online (too lazy; don't own the latest MM it's in) so I can't really compare the two, but if what Ikkitosen said about it is correct, I can paint a picture: Imagine a DM playing a wizard to its full potential - meaning it has appropriate measures prepared to deal with any and every threat your party presents - and then adds in fighter levels to give it that level of ***kickery that it needed so badly.

Spuddly
2006-03-28, 04:58 PM
And the ability to cast chain lightening as a free action. With a caster level of 20, that's 20d6 damage at a range of 1200 feet. Imagine how many times that Titan could blast your group of adventurers with 20d6 damage from a fifth of a mile away. Of course, he'd target the casters first. He'd also get 20 secondary targets with each bolt.

prometheusx
2006-03-28, 05:09 PM
And the ability to cast chain lightening as a free action. With a caster level of 20, that's 20d6 damage at a range of 1200 feet. Imagine how many times that Titan could blast your group of adventurers with 20d6 damage from a fifth of a mile away. Of course, he'd target the casters first. He'd also get 20 secondary targets with each bolt.

At will. This is what really makes the titan almost unstoppable. I can't imagine dealing with full-attack progression or any of its spells from a healthy spell-array and then taking a 20th level chain lightening to boot. Every round.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-03-28, 05:14 PM
At will. *This is what really makes the titan almost unstoppable. *I can't imagine dealing with full-attack progression or any of its spells from a healthy spell-array and then taking a 20th level chain lightening to boot. *Every round.
It can only quicken the lightning 3/day. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterFeats.html#quicken-spell-like-ability)

But, yeah, even after that, the lightning's nothing to sneeze at.

atomicmatt3
2006-03-28, 06:02 PM
Ok, so what I'm hearing is some stale debate about how to down Mr. T and the occasional comment about how awesome the Titan is.

I can see how the Titan could get the +1 CR, but seriously. If a Tarrasque and a Titan were in a fight, both of them aware of each-other and both desperate to kill eachother who would win?

My money is on the Tarrasque.

PhoeKun
2006-03-28, 06:22 PM
Well, let's look at this logically.

Neither opponent can miss on any roll except a Natural 1, but the Tarrasque has more attacks per round. Advantage: Tarrasque.

Both opponents have DR that the other cannot overcome. The Titan does more damage per attack, but the Tarrasque's bite criticals more often. Also, the Tarrasque does not take lethal damage. Advantage: Tarrasque.

Both opponents have SR 32, but the Tarrasque does not use spells or spell like abilities. In addition, the Tarrasque has a 30% chance of reflecting the Titan's best spell right back at him. The Titan also has only a 40% chance of actually affecting the Tarrasque with any spell, and there is only a 5% chance that the Tarrasque will fail its save against said spells. Advantage: Tarrasque.

The Titan is capable of creating strategies, and has a very effective one by default, and the Tarrasque is neither capable, nor does he have need of plans. The Titan's plan is useless against an opponent like the Tarrasque, but at least he can think on his feat. Advantage: Titan.

The Tarrasque has Regen 40, and the Titan does not. Advantage: Tarrasque.

And, lastly: The Tarrasque can only be killed by a Wish spell when its non-lethal damage is at 868. The Titan cannot cast Wish, and even if he could, the Tarrasque would have healed enough damage to get back on its feet before the Titan could cast it. Advantage: Tarrasque.

Fortunately for Titans, they have Gate, and are smart enough to know when their licked.

Jack Mann
2006-03-28, 06:24 PM
Hmm. The Tarrasque's natural attacks count as epic when overcoming DR. I'm a little rusty, does that allow them to hit incorporeal creatures too? If so, I may require a level eight wizard to take it out instead of a level seven.

PhoeKun
2006-03-28, 06:27 PM
It does. See my posts on the Tarraque Rodeo thread for details.

Jack Mann
2006-03-28, 06:53 PM
Okay, eighth level then. That's to be on the safe side.

We'll assume you're a wizard with an Int of 18, which at level eight isn't unreasonable. That gives you a bonus spell per day for each of your levels through four.

Okay, first, you animate as many dead as possible the day before. Using two castings, that's thirty-two HD worth of undead. Make 'em all 1HD skeletons. They'll die in one hit anyway.

Cast fly somewhere near the Tarrasque. You'll need some careful timing on this. You command your skeletal minions to go after the Tarrasque.

Now, before they reach it, you need to start casting summon undead spells (or summon monster, but why mess with a good theme?) with the goal of getting as many undead as possible for the fight. You can't cast too many spells, mind.

So, cast three summon undead III to get twelve kobold zombies or what have you. Then you cast summon undead IV to get allips.

Here's the tricky part. You want the allips to reach the Tarrasque right after your skeletons and zombies reach it, coming in from behind while the others attack its front While it focuses on the ground troops, you can have your allips drain wisdom.

With luck, it shouldn't be able to figure out that the allips are the real threat until too late. It can only destroy six creatures at a time. On average, it only takes six hits from the allips to put it into a permanent coma. The allips are going to be hitting it nearly every time.

The best part? If it does kill the allips before you're finished, you can just pick up the next day where you left off.

If things go terribly wrong, you're still faster than the Tarrasque even with its rush ability. This should all take less than two minutes to know if you're going to succeed, so you still have six minutes to make good your escape.

atomicmatt3
2006-03-28, 07:00 PM
Ok. I think it has been proven that there is more than one way to skin a Tarrasque.

But how would you go about killing a Titan?

***Edit: Oh wait. A twentieth level party, with a Wizard, a Fighter, a Rogue and a Cleric (and a Bard. Have to have the bard.) could probibly take down a Titan, without sneaky tricks. Therefore, my arguement stands that Tarrasque > Titan, and therefore deserves a higher CR.

AtomicKitKat
2006-03-29, 02:09 AM
The Titan is capable of creating strategies, and has a very effective one by default, and the Tarrasque is neither capable, nor does he have need of plans. The Titan's plan is useless against an opponent like the Tarrasque, but at least he can think on his feat. Advantage: Titan.

Three words: Levitate at will.


The Tarrasque has Regen 40, and the Titan does not. Advantage: Tarrasque.

Titan can Cure Critical Wounds at will.[/quote]


It can only destroy six creatures at a time.

Too bad it has Great Cleave. If it got lucky, it'll wipe out everything with just the first attack.

PhoeKun
2006-03-29, 02:25 AM
Three words: Levitate at will.
So? that's just why a Titan isn't likely to get killed by the Terrasque.


Titan can Cure Critical Wounds at will.
Which takes a standard action, and probably won't heal as much as the Regen.


Too bad it has Great Cleave. If it got lucky, it'll wipe out everything with just the first attack.
If it got lucky? Considering the AC to BAB ratio on that one, I'd call it an unlucky Terrasque that can't cleave through the lot of them, especially with 6 opportunities to initiate the cleaving.

...evidently, I'm in an argumentative mood.

Rei_Jin
2006-03-29, 02:26 AM
No no no no no.

You've all got it wrong.

To kill a Tarrasque all you need is a level 20 Sorceror.

Round 1: Sorceror Teleports over the Tarrasque, with a simple Superior Invisibility and Fly spell cast on himself.
Round 2: Said Sorceror casts a Sudden Maximised Timestop. He uses those 5 rounds to place 4 Mirrors of Opposition around the Tarrasque.

Suddenly, it's 4 Tarrasques versus 1. The original Tarrasque bites the dust, and you cast Wish.

The Tarrasques that were created to take on the other Tarrasque instantly disappear once the original is defeated.

Congratulations, you can now wear a Tarrasque hat!

Orion-the-G
2006-03-29, 02:34 AM
I do think it's strange that the titan is considered so unpredictable and hard to fight. almost every plan to beat the tarrasque so far seems to be incredibly convoluted or requires months of preparation. Yet no one has come up with similar plans for the titan? not to mention the titan's abilities are just as well known and easy to plan for as the tarrasque's the fact that the titan is intelligent adds some complexity but not a lot. By 20th level, any decent party should be able to face a titan on their terms so long as they aren't caught completely off guard (in which case the tarrasque sends them running just as well as the titan, if not faster)

Rei_Jin
2006-03-29, 02:35 AM
I don't know, my plan for taking out the Tarrasque works for anything at all, assuming it gives a reflection.

Last time I checked, Titans had a reflection...

PhoeKun
2006-03-29, 02:39 AM
So let it be shouted throughout the valleys: a single Sorcerer of the Level 20 can slay everything in the universe, with zero chance of failure.

Rei_Jin
2006-03-29, 02:40 AM
Hey, I didn't make the rules, I just enforce them, and occasionally break them.

Ok, I break them all the time. Who's to know? ;D

Orion-the-G
2006-03-29, 02:44 AM
I don't know, my plan for taking out the Tarrasque works for anything at all, assuming it gives a reflection.

Last time I checked, Titans had a reflection...

Actually it would work against the titan but a lot less likely against the tarrasque. The mirror requires the oponent to see their reflection, and I don't think a tarrasque would be bothered looking down at his feet when he's stomping. you'd have to place the mirrors directly in front of his eyes and hope he doesn't blink. Assuming you've got something to hold them up in the air anyhow.

Jack Mann
2006-03-29, 02:44 AM
Good point. Okay, use minor image, major image, and silent image, and ghost sound. Cast greater invisibility on one of your two allips.

At the least, you'll get one hit in, and probably more. Sure, it'll almost certainly see through those illusions, but not until it actually interacts with them. That gives you at least one round before it can possibly go after the invisible allip, especially if you use ghost sound to confuse the issue further. That means at least once in this combat, you'll do 1d4 wisdom drain. Two if the visible allip gets a better initiative roll than the Tarrasque (+5 to the Tarrasque's +7, so it has a chance). They still have a fifty-fifty chance of surviving the Tarrasque's attack when they do get hit (and the invisible allip gets two miss chance rolls for being invisible as well as incorporeal). So let's say four attacks. That's an average of ten wisdom drained per encounter. And you can do it all over again the next day. It might catch on quicker the second time around, so you may only get two or three hits in (or maybe not, since its wisdom is much lower than normal). If that doesn't bring it all the way down, you can do it again the next day. Eventually, you'll wear its wisdom all the way down.

You can do it with a level seven wizard too, of course. But then you can only summon a single allip or else forego greater invisibility (assuming you have eighteen Int before the eighth level increase, because otherwise you can only cast one fourth level spell).

Rei_Jin
2006-03-29, 02:49 AM
I just had an evil thought...

Turn the Mirrors of Opposition into Goggles of Opposition. You wear them on your head, and you say the command word when you are looking at the person you want them to work against. Suddenly, another one of them appears in front of you, and they start attacking each other.

The rest of the time you have really funky sunglasses, and when someone pisses you off, you say the command word and make them fight themselves.

Make a set for every member of your party, and the BBEG can say bye bye!!!

Jack Mann
2006-03-29, 02:59 AM
Ok. I think it has been proven that there is more than one way to skin a Tarrasque.

But how would you go about killing a Titan?

***Edit: Oh wait. A twentieth level party, with a Wizard, a Fighter, a Rogue and a Cleric (and a Bard. Have to have the bard.) could probibly take down a Titan, without sneaky tricks. Therefore, my arguement stands that Tarrasque > Titan, and therefore deserves a higher CR.

A twentieth level party could also probably take down the Tarrasque without sneaky tricks. The fun is figuring out how to take out the Tarrasque when you're lower level than twenty. Generally, you shouldn't be able to take down any monster whose CR is that far above your level without sneaky tricks. Especially not one twelve to thirteen levels higher.

And I want to point out that ways don't require that much planning. The first one only required one previous day to animate that many dead. My current plan will get the Tarrasque down in a week, tops, barring a catastrophic chain of natural ones.

AtomicKitKat
2006-03-29, 03:03 AM
Which takes a standard action, and probably won't heal as much as the Regen.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureCriticalWounds.htm

4d8+20, for 24-52 hp per casting. Average of 12+26=38. Just 2 points behind the Tarrasque. The Levitation allows the Titan to stay out of reach so the healing doesn't quite matter against the Tarrasque, but it's a big deal against a standard party(and if you have to face 2 Titans, playing "Team Cleric", even ganging up might not work).

PhoeKun
2006-03-29, 03:06 AM
Good point. Okay, use minor image, major image, and silent image, and ghost sound. Cast greater invisibility on one of your two allips.

At the least, you'll get one hit in, and probably more. Sure, it'll almost certainly see through those illusions, but not until it actually interacts with them. That gives you at least one round before it can possibly go after the invisible allip, especially if you use ghost sound to confuse the issue further. That means at least once in this combat, you'll do 1d4 wisdom drain. Two if the visible allip gets a better initiative roll than the Tarrasque (+5 to the Tarrasque's +7, so it has a chance). They still have a fifty-fifty chance of surviving the Tarrasque's attack when they do get hit (and the invisible allip gets two miss chance rolls for being invisible as well as incorporeal). So let's say four attacks. That's an average of ten wisdom drained per encounter. And you can do it all over again the next day. It might catch on quicker the second time around, so you may only get two or three hits in (or maybe not, since its wisdom is much lower than normal). If that doesn't bring it all the way down, you can do it again the next day. Eventually, you'll wear its wisdom all the way down.

You can do it with a level seven wizard too, of course. But then you can only summon a single allip or else forego greater invisibility (assuming you have eighteen Int before the eighth level increase, because otherwise you can only cast one fourth level spell).

A problem with this plan. Silent Image lasts exactly as long as you concentrate on it. Minor Image lasts 2 rounds longer. Major Image lasts one round longer than that. Summoning the Allips takes two rounds.

If you're going to be casting these spells close enough to the Terrasque for them to have any use, then you're close enough for the Terrasque to see you, think "Food!" and charge, either scaring you off with its frightening presence, or eating you the old fashioned way.

Jack Mann
2006-03-29, 03:11 AM
That's why you cast Fly before doing anything else, naturally. That part of the plan doesn't change. Not if your plans for the day include breathing. And since the Tarrasque can't attack you, its frightening presence doesn't affect you.

PhoeKun
2006-03-29, 03:11 AM
Frightening presence works when it charges at you, too. So actually, yes, it can.

edit: and let's not forget about the attacks of opportunity the Tarrasque is going to get against everything that tries to get near it.

Jack Mann
2006-03-29, 03:26 AM
How can it charge you if you're forty feet above its head? It can't even jump that high.

The image spells have a long range, so you can still cast them from there. You don't need to cast it near the ground, so you can cast ghost sound from where you're at. The allips can charge to reach the Tarrasque.

The combat isn't going to last more than three or four rounds in any event. You just want the images to last long enough for the Tarrasque's first swipe at them to give your allips a chance, particularly the invisible one. Remember, time is on your side. If you can only drain a single point of wisdom, that just means it will take you two weeks to knock it out. Sure, it's rampaging over the countryside, but if you're casting summon undead spells, you're probably not the sort to worry too much about that.

PhoeKun
2006-03-29, 03:52 AM
If you're 40 feet above it's head? You feel its 60-foot frightful presence when it charges whatever is near you (an illusion, an allip, what have you.

And again, Big T has a giant reach, and is entitled to 3 AoOs per round. So there's a decent chance a non-invisible Allip won't even make it within range before dying. If you summon the Allips before casting anything else, then you're losing the precious little time the Allips will be in existence at all.

If you really want to knock out the Terrasque at low level with Allips, you can, but skip the theatrics. The Terrasque is usually only awake for 3 days maximum anyway. Just watch it from a safe distance, and wait for it to fall asleep on its own. Summon the Allip, and go to town. There, you've knocked out the Terrasque "permanently".

...Because you just know some BBEG or another is going to want to use the Terrasque in some evil scheme, will find out about this, and heal him up good as new with some restoration spells.

Jack Mann
2006-03-29, 04:08 AM
All right, float the full sixty feet above it. Ghost sound won't be quite as close, but it should still provide some help.

The problem is that the allips mutter constantly, so to have any success of getting close to the tarrasque, you need to engage in a certain amount of theatrics. If you catch it asleep, you still need to worry about the allips waking it up. It's a heavy sleeper, but with its high listen modifier, I wouldn't want to go into its lair betting that it's going to stay asleep with the noisy undead. Basically, the longer you can keep it from attacking the allips, the better your chances are. You're not going to keep it from attacking the allips at all. The theatrics are damage control. You're making sure they last as long as possible.

Of course, you could always get a cleric to cast silence and avoid the whole issue, but then you have to split the reward and accolades.

Belkarseviltwin
2006-03-29, 07:25 AM
The Titan cannot cast Wish,
Fortunately for Titans, they have Gate, and are smart enough to know when they're licked.
Or Gate in a solar/balor and get it to cast Wish for you...

Ikkitosen
2006-03-29, 12:51 PM
Seriously, I can't believe anyone would find a titan as predictable as the tarrasque. A novice DM might have more joy with the tarrasque, and he's probably the same one that lets you find dragons unprepared and doesn't play their high mental scores.

Genius int/wis + spells makes any tactic you can think up viable for the titan, and should be used.

Tomada
2006-03-29, 01:09 PM
The Tarrasque CAN jump very high.

Just remember he can RUSH, and movement gives bonus to JUMP. 100ft in a round gives some nice bonuses. Coupled with the tarrasques str, you can imagine it can jump a little.

Thiel
2006-03-29, 01:38 PM
143ft according to the SRD

Orion-the-G
2006-03-29, 02:07 PM
Seriously, I can't believe anyone would find a titan as predictable as the tarrasque. A novice DM might have more joy with the tarrasque, and he's probably the same one that lets you find dragons unprepared and doesn't play their high mental scores.

Genius int/wis + spells makes any tactic you can think up viable for the titan, and should be used.


For a party who is planning on taking it on ahead of time it's only slightly less predictable. Yes it's smart, yes it has magic. However it's magic is a list of very specific spells, and can easily be accounted for. A party of anywhere near 20th level can easily make sure the battlefield works against the titan and that the titan simply cannot suprise them, they simply have to prepare then descend upon the creature. If the DM comes up with some particularly clever bit of strategy then sure the titan might manage to turn the tables but that is definitely not a part of the creature's CR.

The titan is harder to trick with simple ploys and it's abilities are less focused purely in the realm of 'destroy anything within reach' but it's certainly no harder for a party that knows it's strengths and weaknesses to handle.

ReluctantDragon
2006-03-29, 02:21 PM
Along those lines, anyone with suggestions for the Titan... and suggestions for a fourth party member for a group about to face one, please feel free to post in the thread "Speaking of Titans..."

Ikkitosen
2006-03-29, 02:26 PM
OK, I just looked the titan up in the SRD, and in the change from 3.0 to 3.5 they lost a pretty major ability. Quoting from my 3.0 MM:

Spells: A titan can use arcane spells as a 20th-level wizard or divine spells as a 20th-level cleric, from the cleric list and from the Chaos and Good domains.

I take back pretty much all that I've said; titans have been hugely nerfed! Without the ability to do many of the cheesy things the PCs will get up to they're deprived of any chance at victory.

Orion-the-G
2006-03-29, 02:28 PM
I figured it might be something like that. I really do wonder why they kept the CR with the loss of casting ability, not that a 20th level primary spellcaster with the titan's other abilities would have been CR 21 to begin with.

Jack Mann
2006-03-29, 03:05 PM
143ft according to the SRD

180 feet per round, that's an extra 15x4 to jump checks. Add in +17 strength bonus. Make it a natural twenty.

That's ninety-seven on his best jump check. A high jump has a DC of four times the height of the jump. This assumes that he gets a running start, but I'm directly above him, so the DC is doubled again. The best he can do is a bit over twelve feet. If he takes two move actions and gets that running start, he's got twenty-four and a quarter. Still not enough.

Thiel
2006-03-29, 03:09 PM
Two words: Vertical Reach

Jack Mann
2006-03-29, 03:22 PM
Still only gets him another twenty feet.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-03-29, 03:33 PM
*pictures Mr. Tarrasque pole-vaulting*

Jack Mann
2006-03-29, 03:39 PM
"Vorno knew his plan was in some danger when the Tarrasque pulled out a fifty-foot indestructible pole..."

Seriously. Someone needs to draw that.

Saragos
2006-03-29, 03:43 PM
Okay, eighth level then. That's to be on the safe side.

We'll assume you're a wizard with an Int of 18, which at level eight isn't unreasonable. That gives you a bonus spell per day for each of your levels through four.

Okay, first, you animate as many dead as possible the day before. Using two castings, that's thirty-two HD worth of undead. Make 'em all 1HD skeletons. They'll die in one hit anyway.

Cast fly somewhere near the Tarrasque. You'll need some careful timing on this. You command your skeletal minions to go after the Tarrasque.

Now, before they reach it, you need to start casting summon undead spells (or summon monster, but why mess with a good theme?) with the goal of getting as many undead as possible for the fight. You can't cast too many spells, mind.

So, cast three summon undead III to get twelve kobold zombies or what have you. Then you cast summon undead IV to get allips.

Here's the tricky part. You want the allips to reach the Tarrasque right after your skeletons and zombies reach it, coming in from behind while the others attack its front While it focuses on the ground troops, you can have your allips drain wisdom.

With luck, it shouldn't be able to figure out that the allips are the real threat until too late. It can only destroy six creatures at a time. On average, it only takes six hits from the allips to put it into a permanent coma. The allips are going to be hitting it nearly every time.

The best part? If it does kill the allips before you're finished, you can just pick up the next day where you left off.

If things go terribly wrong, you're still faster than the Tarrasque even with its rush ability. This should all take less than two minutes to know if you're going to succeed, so you still have six minutes to make good your escape.

Wow, that's a really good idea, except for one minor detail...great cleave. Every one of those little minions are dead in the first round when the tarrasque starts killing them with one hit.

Spuddly
2006-03-29, 03:59 PM
If you run into a Titan on the prime material plane, he's not going to die. He's going to fade away and reappear back on his home plane, round up some buddies, and come stomp the crap out of you.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-03-29, 04:18 PM
Wow, that's a really good idea, except for one minor detail...great cleave. Every one of those little minions are dead in the first round when the tarrasque starts killing them with one hit.
Well, those buggers actually have a fighting chance of surviving such cleavage.

1.) The Tarrasque's most devastating attack has a minimum of 21 damage. Not exactly an autokill against a 26 hp allip.

2.) Natural 1. Even the Tarrasque can't hit all the time.

And Most Importantly...

3.) 50% Incorporeal miss chance. Even if the Tarrasque rolls something other than a one, this will severely affect its accuracy.

Anyone with the leet statistic skills want to tackle finding the actual probability of a successful Bite Great Cleave on three or four allips? (I'm not sure of the most efficient way to calculate probability of <26 damage, otherwise, I could probably do it myself.)

Orion-the-G
2006-03-29, 04:20 PM
Not technically, according to the outsider description an outsider slain just seems to be a dead outsider and one that can't be raised or ressurected.

Besides that titan will still have to find you, it has no divination ability of it's own. And that's assuming that it's buddies just don't laugh at it for getting it's ass beaten by mortals.

Saragos
2006-03-29, 04:37 PM
Well, those buggers actually have a fighting chance of surviving such cleavage.

1.) *The Tarrasque's most devastating attack has a minimum of 21 damage. *Not exactly an autokill against a 26 hp allip.
The tarrasque also has power attack, which I'm certain against such tiny enemies it wouldn't hesitate to use. With a mere -5 to its attack it would instantly meet the minimum damage required. That's minimum damage, which means the tarrasque doesn't even have to roll to kill it. With the allip's AC of 15 vs the +57 to hit on the tarrasque's bite, it could take this +5 a number of times without suffering in its chance to hit.


2.) *Natural 1. *Even the Tarrasque can't hit all the time.

Very true.


3.) *50% Incorporeal miss chance. *Even if the Tarrasque rolls something other than a one, this will severely affect its accuracy.

The tarrasque's epic damage reduction allows it to ignore incorporeal miss chance.

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-03-29, 04:52 PM
The tarrasque also has power attack, which I'm certain against such tiny enemies it wouldn't hesitate to use. With a mere -5 to its attack it would instantly meet the minimum damage required. That's minimum damage, which means the tarrasque doesn't even have to roll to kill it. With the allip's AC of 15 vs the +57 to hit on the tarrasque's bite, it could take this +5 a number of times without suffering in its chance to hit.

Duh. *No problem.


The tarrasque's epic damage reduction allows it to ignore incorporeal miss chance.
Completely ignore it? *Epic == no miss chance whatsoever? *I can't seem to find that. *As near as I can tell, there's a 50% miss chance just like non-epic magic item.

Jack Mann
2006-03-29, 05:31 PM
The Tarrasque still has a fifty-percent miss chance. If he didn't have claws that could overcome damage reduction, he wouldn't even have that much chance to hit. Only positive and negative energy, force effects, and ghost touch weapons can hit the allip everytime.

Someone already pointed out that great cleave renders my first plan... less viable. That's why I switched to the illusions.

The idea is that, so long as you can keep the tarrasque occupied elsewhere, you're probably going to get at least a few hits in with the allips. Add in the miss chance from incorporeal and greater invisibility, and you've got a workable plan. The downside is that it will almost always take more than one encounter with your single wizard.

Now, give me a seventh level party with another wizard and a cleric who can cast silence, and you can do it in one go.

Tomada
2006-03-29, 05:33 PM
------ JUMPING TARRASQUE ------

Since he is using de RUSH ability he gains a +28 to jump checks, he has a +17 str mod, so thats a +45 to jump checks. (if you're wondering how he would get a running start, he just runs away, then comes back jumping, a dog is capable of that, don't come with the tarrasques are dumb, he is not THAT dumb).

So, he can jump any where between 11ft to 16ft high, and that's really not the point, since he can reach as far as 64ft in the air, without jumping!


Vertical Reach Creature Size Vertical Reach
Colossal 128 ft.
Gargantuan 64 ft.

Because he is a quadrupede (he really is, right?), he has the reach of a gargantuan creature, only... sigh, but that ok.

If you need to fly above the tarrasque, be sure to fly more than 80ft away from him.

That's assuming 2 things.

1- I understood the rules on jumping and didn't mess anything

2- He won't get up on his back feet (like a dog, cat, horse, etc would do), if he does this, his reach comes to a 144ft. Better get used to the winds up there!

Jack Mann
2006-03-29, 05:44 PM
Vertical reach includes the Tarrasque's height. That is, it's how high off of the ground the Tarrasque can reach without jumping. A human's vertical reach is eight feet. That means that, without making a jump check, he can reach something eight feet off of the ground. Not that he can reach something eight feet above his head. Thus, the Tarrasque can reach something sixty-four feet above the ground without jumping. He can't reach something sixty-four feet above his head. That would be reaching more than double his height.

I specified that the distance was measured above the Tarrasque, not above the ground. Trust me, I did think about the Tarrasque's reach. I even pointed out the same idea you had of using two move actions for the jump.

Dhavaer
2006-03-29, 06:02 PM
The Tarrasque is a biped, actually.

Tomada
2006-03-29, 07:00 PM
Vertical reach includes the Tarrasque's height. That is, it's how high off of the ground the Tarrasque can reach without jumping. A human's vertical reach is eight feet. That means that, without making a jump check, he can reach something eight feet off of the ground. Not that he can reach something eight feet above his head. Thus, the Tarrasque can reach something sixty-four feet above the ground without jumping. He can't reach something sixty-four feet above his head. That would be reaching more than double his height.

I specified that the distance was measured above the Tarrasque, not above the ground. Trust me, I did think about the Tarrasque's reach. I even pointed out the same idea you had of using two move actions for the jump.

I don't know if it was directed at me, but I never said it was above the tarrasque's head. Just above him, and that was intended to mention from the ground, sorry if I wasn't clear.


The Tarrasque is a biped, actually.

so, you need to be very High in The Sky, to actually escape from the reach of the tarrasque.

Up there, the winds would force a concentration check every spell casting...

Umael
2006-03-30, 11:05 AM
A major point about the CR that people are missing is that CR only takes into consideration the PCs, not the monsters themselves. A monster with a CR 20 will consume an average of 25% of the resources of a party consisting of 4 20th level PCs. That is all it means. This means that a monster will not automatically defeat a second monster with a lower CR.

If you look at the Remorhaz (CR 7) and the Frost Worm (CR 12), it states that the two creatures do not like each other and that they attack each other on sight. "Remorhazes are frequently the victors in such battles." What the hay? A CR 7 creature defeating a CR 12 creature? Why on the world would the Remorhaz emerge "frequently" as the victors?

Because an enraged Remorhaz generates 10d10 fire damage by total and the Frost Worm is a Cold Subtype creature. But the Frost Worm, with double the hit points and the Trill ability is more of a threat to a party of four PCs than the Remorhaz is.

Hence it is inappropriate to compare the CR of any two monsters and claim that one can or even should beat the other because of a difference in CR rating.



Up there, the winds would force a concentration check every spell casting...

Um... no.

Even at 250 feet, the winds are not that bad. Heck, you should be able to parachute jump from 15,000 feet and not suffer any concentration checks from the winds, even if you are going near terminal needle-like (190 mph or so).


One more note on the jumping Tarrasque issue (why, oh, why do I have the image of Tarrasque basketball...?), unless the Tarrasque has a stated ability that ignores it, the maximum vertical jump a Tarrasque can do is double its height. Don't know if that changes anything though...

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-03-30, 02:27 PM
One more note on the jumping Tarrasque issue (why, oh, why do I have the image of Tarrasque basketball...?), unless the Tarrasque has a stated ability that ignores it, the maximum vertical jump a Tarrasque can do is double its height. *Don't know if that changes anything though...
That's 3.0. They got rid of maximum jumping heights and distances in 3.5. It's only limited by your check now.

ticklemeozmo
2006-09-03, 03:03 AM
So far, it seems the three ways we have thus far (for being under 20th level) are:

* Drown
* Allip
* Simulacrum

Unfortunately, "You can’t create a simulacrum of a creature whose Hit Dice or levels exceed twice your caster level." (SRD) which means you'd need to be 24th level in order to create a 24 HD tarrasque.

ShipWrecked
2006-09-03, 03:19 AM
post deleted due to fact that me and my friends were pretty much not playing the right way. ::)

Jack Mann
2006-09-03, 03:45 AM
*Twitches*

Monkey grip and powerful build don't stack! Why would you get monkey grip as a goliath? It doesn't help you!

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-09-03, 04:10 AM
ii was a lvl 20 goliath ranger with two wepon fighting wielding two basterd swords, monkey grip, both with vorpal and i cut off its head legs arms and tail first round.. didnt have anything to do after that.. besides
"crinckle the dark magical gnome" owning him with a wish spell..

You fail. My god, you fail so utterly hard.

Jack Mann
2006-09-03, 04:20 AM
Ahem. I've calmed down somwhat, now, and I can go through this a bit more rationally.

No, powerful build and monkey grip do not stack. They have the same effect; ie letting you hold a weapon one size category than you are. If you are medium, they both let you hold a large weapon. Note that in both cases, the size category of the weapon is based on your actual size, not the size of the weapon you would otherwise carry. This is why they do not stack. As well, monkey grip only applies to your main hand. Off-hand weapons cannot benefit from monkey grip.

Monkey grip is not a good idea in any event. It is mechanically inferior and actually lowers your damage compared to other things such as power attack. As well, it cannot be turned off. You always suck up that -2, unless you switch to a smaller weapon. Since that's money out of your pocket, that's a bad thing.

And vorpal does not work like that. It lops of heads and only heads. It will not lop off an enemy's limbs.

And lopping off the tarrasque's head does not necessarily take it out. Yes, it's certainly inconvenienced, and most GMs would probably rule that it couldn't act for 1d6 minutes. However, its hit points would not have gone down anymore than they would have for that particular critical hit. You still would need to get rid of the other eight hundred hit points, as it healed forty a round, before your companion could wish it dead.

Sorry, but your DM was not running the game by the rules. Therefore your victory over the Tarrasque is not valid.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-09-03, 04:30 AM
Also, Vorpal, y'know, only works on a natural 20. I find it hard to believe he rolled five natural 20s in a round.

ShipWrecked
2006-09-03, 04:34 AM
*Twitches*

Monkey grip and powerful build don't stack! *Why would you get monkey grip as a goliath? *It doesn't help you!
good point. waist on a feat.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-09-03, 04:34 AM
Monkey Grip is always a waste of feat.

And yet, people keep taking it.

Giant swords just plain aren't that cool, people! Give it up already! ARGH!

ShipWrecked
2006-09-03, 04:34 AM
Also, Vorpal, y'know, only works on a natural 20. I find it hard to believe he rolled five natural 20s in a round.
meh that is also another bad, we just counted the vorpal on a critical..not a natural 20.

ShipWrecked
2006-09-03, 04:36 AM
Monkey Grip is always a waste of feat.

And yet, people keep taking it.

Giant swords just plain aren't that cool, people! Give it up already! ARGH!

lol yush sir. honestly we didnt play this party just made it up on my friends birthday cause he wanted to fight the bloody thing =\

Missing Shoe
2006-09-03, 04:56 AM
Monkey Grip is always a waste of feat.

And yet, people keep taking it.

Giant swords just plain aren't that cool, people! Give it up already! ARGH!
Your hate for this feat astounds me. Doing a default search for the words "Monkey Grip" results in 7/25 posts that either you talked about your hatred, or someone quoted your hatred. Also, you have posted in every thread where monkey grip has been mentioned. That, my friend, is dedication.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-09-03, 05:00 AM
Your hate for this feat astounds me. Doing a default search for the words "Monkey Grip" results in 7/25 posts that either you talked about your hatred, or someone quoted your hatred. Also, you have posted in every thread where monkey grip has been mentioned. That, my friend, is dedication.

I hate it with fire. It offends me both flavor-wise and mechanics wise. And yet people. Keep. TAKING. It.

Grr.

Jack Mann
2006-09-03, 05:00 AM
All right-minded people hate monkey grip.

You know who supports monkey grip? The reds, that's who. If you take monkey grip, the Thrayans will win.

Thray
2006-09-03, 05:01 AM
All right-minded people hate monkey grip.

You know who supports monkey grip? The reds, that's who. If you take monkey grip, the Thrayans will win.
...hey, since when do my followers support monkey grip?

Jack Mann
2006-09-03, 05:02 AM
Everyone knows you're a thrall of Thay.

Thray
2006-09-03, 05:03 AM
Everyone knows you're a thrall of Thay.
Red and Blue are not the same thing, despite their apparent similarities!

Jack Mann
2006-09-03, 05:04 AM
How do you explain the Lay of the Color-blind Wizard, then? The bards just made up the Thayan connection, did they?

Tengu
2006-09-03, 06:08 AM
I am working on a monkey grip-based PrC. Lowers the AB penalty when wielding things with monkey grip, gives you an AC bonus (such a huge weapon is easy to block things with), gives you a special shockwave attack, finally lets you use weapons two sizes larger then you are. Anyone care to playtest when I finish?

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-09-03, 06:10 AM
I am working on a monkey grip-based PrC. Lowers the AB penalty when wielding things with monkey grip, gives you an AC bonus (such a huge weapon is easy to block things with), gives you a special shockwave attack, finally lets you use weapons two sizes larger then you are. Anyone care to playtest when I finish?

Do you have a will?

hewhosaysfish
2006-09-03, 10:33 AM
Jackmann: why bother with all the illusionary diversions when the allips can just approach the tarrasque from underground?
Hah! No AAOs for you, Mr Tarrasque! You just have to hope that a Colossal creature on the rampage produces enough noise for the allips to find it without seeing it.
Once it realises it's under attack it has to ready an attack to smash one allip per round as it reaches out of the earth to attack. Even if it hits one allip, it can't cleave into the others. :)
I now have the mental image of the tarrasque digging at the ground like a dog at a rabbit hole, trying to unearth these pesky undead....

Goumindong
2006-09-03, 11:00 AM
How do you explain the Lay of the Color-blind Wizard, then? The bards just made up the Thayan connection, did they?

:)

Norsesmithy
2006-09-03, 02:14 PM
Ahh, the Tarresque, by the time my group fought it, My pali had been Perm-enlarged, via potion miscibility, and had a Solar's slaying bow. Should fail a fort save eventually, for us it happened on the fifth arrow in the first round. Sorc's Wish and done.

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-09-03, 02:16 PM
Ahh, the Tarresque, by the time my group fought it, My pali had been Perm-enlarged, via potion miscibility, and had a Solar's slaying bow. Should fail a fort save eventually, for us it happened on the fifth arrow in the first round. Sorc's Wish and done.

Impresssive, most impressive,


you know it'd be better if you monkey gripped the bow...... ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;D

Tengu
2006-09-03, 05:41 PM
Do you have a will?

No, my lack of the will save makes me immune to internet-delivered mind thrusts.

tugrulbuyukisik
2008-06-11, 09:48 PM
HEAT THE TARRASQUE TO A TEMPERATURE OF LAVA WITH 100 FIREBALLS
THEN USE ICE SPELLS SUDDENLY
WATCH THE TORRASQUE SHATTER/DIVIDED INTO PIECES
OR
DO THE VICEVERSA
JUST FROZE IT AND THEN HAVE IT SLIDE FROM TOP OF A MOUNTAIN AND BREAK INTO HALF :d

tugrulbuyukisik
2008-06-11, 09:52 PM
CURSE THE TORRASQUE
THEN HIT WITH HOLY AVENGER :d

tugrulbuyukisik
2008-06-11, 09:54 PM
1)dragon Transforms Into A Villager To Be Eaten By Torrasque
2)torrasque Eats Villager With Pleasure
3)dragon Transforms Into Real Size In The Stomach
4)there Comes A Sound From Torrasque (vcccck)

tugrulbuyukisik
2008-06-11, 10:00 PM
TITAN CASTS TIME STOP
AT FIRST ROUND OF TIME STOP, TITAN CASTS ANOTHER TIMESTOP
.........
.........
ALL TIMESTOPS WASTED BUT TITAN GAINED MANY FREE ROUNDS TO USE ALL QUICKENED+NORMAL SPELLS AND TO HIT MELEE I THINK A TITAN DOES A GOOD DAMAGE WHEN TIME IS STOPPED
IN TIME-STOPPED ROUNDS, TITAN DOES ALL HITS TO ITS MIDDLE UNTIL THERES 2-HALF TORRASQUES
(TITAN IS WISE ENOUGH TO CUT THE TORRASQUE IN ABSOULETLY SIMMETRIC 2 PIECES)
NOW WHICH PART WILL REGENERATE?
IF BOTH, THEN THERE ARE 2 TORRASQUES
:d
THIS WAY A TITAN CAN GO MASS-PRODUCTION OF TORRASQUES AND DESTROY EVERY GROUND BASED LIVING(MAYBE CASTS FLY ON TORRASQUES TO MAKE THEM CONQUER SKY) TITAN CR:MUST BE OVER 21 :s

Ned the undead
2008-06-11, 10:07 PM
I'm almost certain you can't. While the target obviously has no chance to dodge the hit, you can't discern any viable weak points from inside the stomach.

Other than the major organ that your in of course.
Or the intestines that are hooked up to it or the the heart that's up and to the left of the stomach.

tugrulbuyukisik
2008-06-11, 10:10 PM
Tİtan Knows Dragon İs Superİor To Any Ground Based Creature
Titan Casts Fly+haste To Tarrasque
But Tarrasque Attacks Tİtan
Tİtan Casts Tİme-stop
Dragon Already Knows That Tİtan Would Make The Tarrasque Able To Attack Aİr
So Dragon Already Made A Wish Against A Time-stop Casting
Tarrasque Goes To Its Cave With Full-up With Titan Flesh
Tarrasque Sleeps Many Years
Good Night T

Jayngfet
2008-06-11, 10:14 PM
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/adeptusmoronicus/thread_necromancer.png

tugrulbuyukisik
2008-06-11, 10:15 PM
i wonder who can win if it is a capture the flag :D

Roland St. Jude
2008-06-11, 10:31 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't revive old threads. tugrulbuyukisik, please check your Private Messages. Thread locked.