I need help balancing this class please.

[Ph@$3]

Manipulator of Darkness
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2 |Improved Unarmed Strike

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3 |A Slow Demise

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3 | Dark push

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4 | Muscle mass1

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4 | Gravity well.

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5 | Repulsive skin1

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5 | Dark fists.

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6 | A dark friend.

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6 | Dark slam

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7 | Half dark.

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7 | A daunting weight.

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8 | Repulsive skin2

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8 | Muscle mass 2

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9 | Explosive slam. Explosive push.

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9 | A dark lift..

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10 | Crushing grip.

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10 | Ripping darkness.

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11 | Dark skin

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11 | Almost dark

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12 | A true formitenebro[/table]





Class features.
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies

Manipulators of darkness are proficient with no types of armor or
weapons expect natural attacks.

Special descriptions.
------------------------------------------
Improved unarmed strike*:
Manipulators of darkness get the feat
Improved un armed strike as a bonus feat at level 1 even if s/he doesn’t meet the requirements.

A slow demise*: At level 2 and onward the manipulator of darkness can surround his fist(or other natural weapon) with dark energy which causes any object it touches to start to get ripped apart atom by atom if a creature is able to make fort saves it can to take half damage and reduce the duration to half as well.( dc=10+1/2 manipulator of darkness level+ wisdom modifier)
(damage =1d4/per manipulator of darkness level and lasts 1d3/per manipulator of darkness level rounds).

Dark push*: At level 3 a Manipulator of darkness gains the ability “Dark push”. This allows him/her to through a ball of dark matter surrounded by dark energy this ball is about 6” big and is thrown in a straight line. This ball will push back any thing in its path that weighs 100lbs +15/permanipulator level back 5feet per manipulator level. If the object/enemy hits a wall or some other immovable object that stops them early they take damage that is equal to the distance they where thrown as if they had fallen this distance.

Muscle mass 1and 2*: At level 4 a manipulator of darkness gains the ability to use dark mater to increase the mass of his/her fists (or other natural weapon) this ability is always active in terms of damage ,and in terms of grappling the person’s size is considered bigger, the fists (or natural weapon) die increases to on size category higher. And at level 13 the size category increases again by 1.This does not make the fists(or natural weapon) actual larger and they are no harder to move than before hand because the manipulator of darkness uses dark energy to help move them (strength bonuses still apply).This ability is lost if weapons that aren’t natural are used.

Repulsive skin1 and 2*: At level 4 a manipulator of darkness gains the ability to surround him/her self in dark energy creating a shield like effect that increases their AC by ¼ the characters manipulator of darkness level. If any armor is worn including shields this ability is lost. This ability is always on even if the character is incapacitated, helpless, or sleeping. Natural armor doesn’t affect this ability. At level 12 this increases to ½/per manipulator of darkness level.

Gravity well*. A level 5 Manipulator of darkness can create a gravity well like effect by making a small black hole within a 150ft radius of him/her self. This black hole pulls anything that is at most 150lbs +10lbs per level of manipulator of Darkness towards it. The closer the object the higher the fort save to resist the pull, which are made every round this is in effect,.(within 5ft DC= 15+1/2 Manipulator of darkness level + wisdom modifier, if within 10-20ft DC=10+1/2 Manipulator of Darkness level + wisdom modifier, if within 25-50feet DC=5+1/2 Manipulator of Darkness level + wisdom modifier.).If an object is in the same square as the black hole then they must make a DC=20+1/2 manipulator of darkness level+ wisdom modifier fortitude save or instantly be crushed. If within a 5ft radius of black hole then movement speed (for a successful fort save ) is ¼ the original, if within 20ft it is ½ and if within 50ft it is ¾ that of normal. If a fort save for movement is failed then object/creature is pulled at 15ft per round if within 50ft ,20ft per round if within 20ft and is unable to move for 1d6 rounds if within the same square but hasn’t died. This ability like all others of the manipulator of darkness effect all within area of effect. This can be used once per day is a full round action ,provokes an attack of opportunity and doesn’t take effect for 1d4 rounds. If Manipulator is attacked in the round s/he is performing ability must make a concentration check or ability is instantly dismissed. To dismiss this the manipulator must take 2 full round actions to do so.

Dark fists*: At level 7 the manipulators fists (or unarmed attack) is considered a magical weapon only for damage reduction and the manipulator chooses for the natural attack to be considered as piercing or slicing weapons as well as bludgeoning for purposes of damage reduction. This happens because the manipulator permanently infuses dark energy into and around the natural weapon.

A Dark Friend*: The manipulator gains a better mastery of his/her abilities making the manipulator and all things s/he canisters to be an ally to become immune to all of the manipulator abilities unless the manipulator chooses otherwise.

Dark Slam*: The manipulator pulls in dark matter to increase his/her mass to 3x that of the original, surrounds their body in a ball of dark energy and propels them self forward with dark energy and slams into any enemies in their path. This ability is gained at level 9.The distance the manipulator travels is the same distance they can naturally run and is in a straight line(feats and other enhancements don’t apply to the distance).This can not be ended early if character encounters immovable object it brakes throw the object if it is nonliving if it is living character is stopped and both sides take damage(monsters who are 3 size categories or higher above the manipulator are considered unmovable). The damage is 2x the unarmed strike damage after a rolling of the dice but before modifiers and bonuses are added. An enemy can make a DC 15+1/2 manipulator level reflex save to take half damage if they are within the line of attack, if adjacent enemies are subjective to half damage unless they make a reflex save to avoid all damage. This can be used only once every 1/5 levels of manipulator of darkness. The character is exhausted for 1d10 rounds afterwards and is fatigued for 1d6 rounds after that. If the manipulator hits an immovable and unbreakable object his/her hit points is instantly reduced to -1 and they are dieing and unconscious. If they are stabilized and healed they will still stay unconscious for 1d4 x10minutes and is exhausted for 1d4 hours unless they rest.


Half dark*: The Manipulator is half way to its true dreams and power. At level 10 a Manipulator of Darkness becomes partially incorporeal and has a 20% chance of ignoring all non magical and non incorporeal attacks. The appearance of the character is slightly faded do to the fact that dark matter and dark energy have no appearance but do affect the way light waves hit and move around them giving the Manipulator a slightly faded but outlined in light appearance. They also have a 50% chance of not being healed by conventional means and have a 30% chance of being healed by energy attacks. They do however heal 1d4 per ½ manipulator level per hour worth of hp this effect doubles to 2d8 when they are asleep or meditating(resting).

A daunting weight*: at level 11 this allows a manipulator of Darkness to increase the mass of an enemy to the point it is unbearable and causes them to collapse and die under there own weight. This is a standard action and provokes an attack of opportunity. This ability can be used 1 time per day every 4 levels of manipulator of darkness. This ability can’t be used more than once in the same encounter unless the manipulator make a concentration check of DC 15 plus 5 for every use after the first. This does 1d8 damage for the first round and increases by another 1d8 every additional round it hurts its target.This lasts for 2d6 rounds plus wisdom modifier. For every round the target takes damage they lose 5 feet of movement speed because they are getting heavier. If the target is ever reduced to half of there hit points when this effect started they are instantly crushed if they fail a fort save of DC 15 + every round of damage from ability + # of fort saves against instant crush effect. This can stack if a concentration check, of 15 +5 for every one this encounter +5 for everyone on this target, is passed.


Explosive Slam and throw*:At level 14 The dark slam and dark throw ability can both be stopped early but this now causes the dark energy and matter to explode out ward ,damaging and knocking back any enemies near by. This can only be used once per day for each ability. An enemy may make a reflex save, of DC 15+ 1/2manipulator level + wisdom modifier, to take half damage and if successful may make fortitude save to see if they are knocked back or not. (DC=15+ ½ manipulator level)An enemy that is 1 size category smaller or smaller than the manipulator is thrown 50ft if they hit an unmovable object they take damage as if they had fallen twice the distance they where thrown from there original position. If an enemy is the 0 or 1 size category higher than they are thrown 25 feet, if they hit an unmovable object then they take damage as if they fell twice the distance they where thrown from there original positions. If the enemy is 3 size categories higher or more they cannot be blown back by this effect and instead just take the initial damage. The damage taken from this is normal damage from ability+ 1d8 for every 2 levels in manipulator of darkness (max 8d8). If this is used with Dark slam the manipulator is knocked out for 1d6 rounds in addition to the exhaustion and fatigue they normally receive.

A Dark Lift*: At level 15 a Manipulator of darkness can as a standard action chose to make him/herself able to fly at their base land speed with average maneuverability. This can be applied to up to 1+ 1/5 level of manipulator targets at one time any higher and the manipulator has to succeed a will save of DC=15+5 for ever target already +5 for every target attempting to add. This ability can be dismissed as a swift action and only lasts on other targets for 3d6 rounds and lasts on the manipulator for 1d4 hours.

Crushing grip*: At level 16 whenever a manipulator has successfully grappled an enemy they can as a standard action tremendously increase their own mass and crush the enemy. The target can make a fort save of DC 10+ 1/2 manipulator level+ Strength modifier or be crushed instantly. If the succeed then they still take 1d6 per manipulator of darkness level damage. This causes the manipulator to become exhausted for 1d10 rounds and fatigued for 1d4 hours after wards. This ability can only be used once per day per wisdom modifier. If this is used while the manipulator is fatigued they become exhausted for 2d10 rounds and fatigued for 2d4 hours. If this is used while exhausted then the manipulator becomes unconscious for 1d4 hours and is exhausted when s/he wakes up for another 1d6 hours unless they rest for 8 or more hours.

A Ripping Darkness*: At level 17 the manipulator can ripper an enemy apart into its individual atomic partials and completely destroy them. This ability is a full round action and can only be used once and can be used again after the manipulator has rested for at least 6 hours. This ability can be negated with a Fort save of DC=20+Wisdom modifier if this is save is successful the target can not move for 1d10 rounds. Whether or not this succeeds doesn’t matter the ability still cannot be used until the manipulator has rested for at least 6 hours and the manipulator also cant move for 1d4 rounds.

Dark skin*: At level 18 the manipulator is ever so close to there true power. S/he is now 40% incorporeal and enemies must make a spot check of 20 or they will not notice the nearly invisible manipulator.

Almost Dark*: At level 19 a manipulator has but one last step to becoming a true Formitenebro. The manipulator is now 60% incorporeal and enemies must make a spot of 25 or the manipulator is considered to be invisible.

A True Formitenebro*: A Manipulator is now no longer just a person with power they are now the very embodiment of what they once sought to control. They are 100% incorporeal and have a 25% chance of ignoring all magical effects cast on them(friendly or not).They now can use all of there abilities twice as often and the max for all damage from abilities is increased to two die sizes higher. They no longer need to rest and cannot be healed by normal means. A Formitenebro heals by converting matter and energy around them into dark matter and dark energy this is a constant effect and heals them 1d8 per level per hour this effect doubles when they are meditating on healing (resting)to 2d8 per level per hour. If they are attacked by any energy type they have a 60% chance of being healed by it instead of taking damage. Even though they are incorporeal they can still hurt and effect corporal things because they are infused with dark energy. This means if they pass threw a corporal object it becomes warped and distorted and is rendered useless. If the object is living it must make a Fort save of DC 20+ ½ manipulator level + wisdom modifier or become disfigured and take 5 Strength 5 Con and 5 Charisma points of permanent damage. Just like all abilities the Formitenebro can use this can not affect things it chooses not to. The appearance of the Formitenebro (if it where more visible than shimmers and distortions in the light) it would be a senseless ball like object floating in the air for this reason it is immune to all sneak attacks, critical hits, and cannot suffocate (doesn’t breath).They do not walk but merely float above the ground and are considered to be flying the have good maneuverability their fly speed is now double of there old base land speed. They no longer have a distinct sex and cannot reproduce (but can create others of its kind, but they cannot attack for them and do not have to listen to any command the Formitenebro gives them and are considered level 1).The Formitenebro is immune to all Fort saves and gains a Wisdom bonus of 5.(they still retain all of there base racial traits).



Sorry if the lay out is wired i originally had it on a Microsoft word doc and i coped and pasted it i tried to fix it as best as i could .I know this is overpowered that is why i am asking for help with balance but i made it overpowered because my friends and I play dnd about once a weekend and we wanted to make home-brewed classes so we are but there are only 3 of us so we usually do gestalt but this time we decided it would be fine if we just made classes that would be as strong as gestalt so we wouldn't be underpowered but still not too powerful because we like a slightly high standard fantasy where we fight enemies that are usually stronger than us.I am the Dm and i normally double as a player but let my friends make most of the decisions in game play but I'm more of a spontaneous Dm which i find makes it more fun for me and my friends.My freinds and i thought it need more balace so i thouught why not ask oots cus oots is awesome! :smile:
:mitd:

P.S. Formitenebro comes from "Formi" and "tenebro" wich means shape and darkness as a direct translation from Esperanto the best language ever :smallsmile:

Edit: I have fixed up the table a little i believe it looks nicer now, I am still working on the class


We are Phase the undead god of insanity and knowledge.

[Kuma Kode]

The Guide to Homebrewing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313) has a lot of great information, including how to format a class table.

Right now it's pretty unreadable. Why is it in two different tables?

EDIT: Welcome to the forum, by the way. That thread gets thrown at just about every newbie, so don't worry too much.

[Ph@$3]

like i said i originally had it as a Microsoft document and i was restricted on space and i didn't really plan on showing it to any one other than my friends thanks for the link btw





We are Phase the undead god of insanity and knowledge.

[Kuma Kode]

All bad saves? An awkward base attack bonus? What's wrong with just +1/level? Why (+1/level)-1?

A Dark Fall is pretty much useless. Falling isn't really something that happens in combat.

Slow Demise is awkward. Does it stack with itself? Does it overlap? Lots of slow damage is a pain to track, and the random duration is clunky. That's a lot of die rolling for a few extra points of damage per round.

Dark push can be useful, but the fact it doesn't allow a save is broken. You might want to add in some kind of variable effect, since right now you can push a guy really far, but then another guy who happens to be 10 lbs. heavier doesn't budge at all. How long is this line, anyway? What's the range on this thing? Maybe make it work more like a bull rush rather than telekinesis?

Muscle mass is nice, everyone wants to be bigger, but it's damage increase is kinda redundant. I assume that aspect of the ability is part of the fluff of how their fists get ridiculous damage anyway. Has the potential to turn this class into a decent (if bizarrely fluffed) Beowulf.

Repulsive Skin probably should just say it's an armor bonus and get rid of all the "stacks with this, not with that" info. It'll already be covered by the type stacking rules.

Gravity well is probably too strong or too early. Even 1/day, an ability that has an instant kill effect is not something you want to give to the party. Also, its different zones with different movement speeds and different saves and different pull speeds seems unnecessarily complicated. Considering the pull speed and the movement modification, creatures caught in it won't be able to do anything but move directly away from it, as any other action will cause them to have a net loss in speed and therefore slide toward it.

It's like grease but instantly kills them if they do something other than try to stand up. How long does this sucker last, anyway?

I made a similar ability for my Whisper class called Dimension Sink, you might be able to use it to help you re-balance it maybe?
Dimension Sink
Void of Doubt, Eternity's Maw
Level/School: 2nd/Conjuration
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: 60 ft. emanation
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Through sheer will, you draw a being of the Far Realm into reality, which appears as a roiling mass of putrid tentacles and unidentifiable organs. The creature is unaffected by gravity, and floats serenely wherever it is placed. Like a sinkhole in the desert, the entity drags potential victims towards it. Unlike a sinkhole, the entity warps space and time to do so. The creatures do not move; it is the space they occupy that moves.

Everything within the area, including you, is drawn towards the alien at the center of the emanation at the rate of 30 ft. per round. A creature with a strong sense of self may stabilize their personal area; A successful Charisma check (DC 10) negates 5 feet of this pull, plus an additional 5 feet for every 5 points by which the victim beat the DC.

A creature that is drawn into the center of the effect is attacked by the Far Realm entity, sustaining 2d6 points of slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning damage. These attacks come from more than three dimensions and cannot miss, even ignoring concealment and incorporeality.

Motion caused by the dimension sink does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Moving against the draw of the entity is disorienting and confusing; A successful Wisdom check (DC 10) allows a creature to move at half speed. Failure means the creature is unable to navigate the temporal tides and cannot move away.

Ranged attacks that originate, end or otherwise pass through the area of effect suffer a -4 circumstance penalty. The pull of the entity is not strong enough to counter normal gravity, and therefore cannot lift creatures off the ground.
Dark fists is pretty straightforward, definitely necessary for natural attack classes.

Dark friend is nice considering the murder machine gravity well you've been putting your allies through for the past two levels.

It seems like this class is some extreme version of the wizard; extremely powerful abilities that are usable a limited number of times by a fragile individual. Unfortunately, that's really not a good thing to aim for, and it looks like you took it to an even bigger extreme. These powers may only be usable 1/day or such, but what if the group just... doesn't do anything else that day? It's a phenomenon called the "15 minute workday" in which players plow through encounters, burning their spells as fast as possible and using all their powers and then just resting. They utterly obliterate one or two encounters a day instead of doing what the game expects and dividing their resources between four or more encounters. This class is pretty much designed for that style of play, in which the limited availability isn't a balancing factor because it doesn't matter.

It will probably be easier if you balance towards the center rather than balancing extremes.

[Ph@$3]

thanx for the feed back i will work on the class as soon as i have the time to do so but unforchantly i am currently busy :smallfrown:

Edit:i didn't relay go back and make sure it was alright so i didn't really consider what it would be like in battle or at all in game which i guess is bad on my part but im a nub so w/e i have learned




We are Phase the undead god of insanity and knowledge.

[Ph@$3]

ok so i should increase the hd size to d6?
fix the gravity well so its not complicated and a death machine :P
make saves +1 per level and maybe have one be better than the others
be more clear on the slow demise
replace dark fall or just delete it
unbrake dark throw
and give more uses per day but make the abilities less powerful

If i read correctly this is all you said and i should fix them i will start soon and will post my fixes today or tomorrow



We are Phase the undead god of insanity and knowledge.

[Mando Knight]

make saves +1 per level and maybe have one be better than the others

No, what he means is use a normal BAB progression (as per a Fighter, Cleric, or Wizard) and the normal save progressions, with a good save somewhere (everyone has at least one good save).

[Ph@$3]

No, what he means is use a normal BAB progression (as per a Fighter, Cleric, or Wizard) and the normal save progressions, with a good save somewhere (everyone has at least one good save).

thanx for the clarification mando






We are Phase the undead god of insanity and knowledge.

[Ph@$3]

Manipulator of Darkness
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5

8th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+2|
+6

9th|
+6/+1|
+6|
+3|
+6

10th|
+7/+2|
+7|
+3|
+7

11th|
+8/+3|
+7|
+3|
+7

12th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8

13th|
+9/+4|
+8|
+4|
+8

14th|
+10/+5|
+9|
+4|
+9

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+9|
+5|
+9

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12[/table]

ok i copied the BaB of a monk and the saves from the cleric does this look better?

i belove i also got gravity well fixed:

Gravity well: A level 5 Manipulator of darkness can create a gravity well like effect by making a small black hole within a 150ft radius of him/her self. This black hole pulls anything that is 1 size category higher than the manipulator or smaller within 50ft ,plus 10 per wisdom modifier (max 120ft),towards it at a rate of 5ft per round if they move in any direction except directly away from the center of the well. Strength checks (dc10+wisdom mod) are made every round this is in effect. If an object is caught in the area of effect then it takes 1d6 points of damage. If an object is in the same square as the black whole they take 1d4 points of additional damage. This ability like all others of the manipulator of darkness effect all within area of effect. This can be used, 1+ ½ manipulator of darkness level +wisdom modifier, times per day as a standard action, this provokes an attack of opportunity and doesn’t take effect for 1d4 rounds. If the Manipulator is attacked in the round s/he is performing this ability they must make a concentration check or the ability is instantly dismissed. Dismissing this is a standard action.




We are Phase the undead god of insanity and knowledge.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Alright...here's a fairly in-depth critique. Apologies if this is in any way insulting: it's not meant to be. It's meant to be an honest appraisal of your class, and I'll happily answer any questions you have about my comments. I'm also happy to lend a hand with revisions/advice if you feel inclined to ask. :smallbiggrin:

Diving in...

You don't have any flavor, which is somewhat puzzling. From the title, I'm expecting a Darkness/Shadow Mage, but most of the abilities seem to go with a gravity/density manipulator. Either works, but combining the two is taking you strange places (some of the abilities really don't mesh conceptually, making the darkness ones seem incredibly out of place).

The class seems like a melee/grappling class, but has a d4 hit die, ensuring that it will get curb-stomped in melee combat. Further, it has NO weapons OR armor proficiencies...which means no real defenses, no any other attacking options. These are all major red flags.

The unarmed damage scales terribly. 3d10 averages 16. 6d6 averages 21. 3d8 averages 13. That means a size large creature deals 5 less damage, on average, than a size medium creature. Also, it means this class deals more unarmed damage than a Monk by a HUGE margin. That doesn't seem right...

On to the actual class abilities...


A dark fall*: This allows the manipulator of darkness to use dark energy to repel a number of targets(1+1/2 manipulator level.) from the damage from falling by 10 ft. per manipulator level. On the other hand this also allows the manipulator to increase the speed at which the target/s is/are falling and increase the damage it/they receive by 10 Ft per level in manipulator of darkness. This is a standard action and can only be performed 1+1/2 manipulator of darkness level times a day. A manipulator of darkness gains this ability at level1.

So...my only first level ability is dependent on my foes falling? Looking at the rest of the class, I also have no abilities that can make people fall. That means that this is basically always useless. It's also strangely worded: damage can't be increased in feet, for example, which is what your wording currently says. I sort of know what you mean, but it needs rewriting. Regardless, the ability is of such limited utility that it's basically a non-entity at any level. Perhaps scrap this in favor of something more useful?


A slow demise*: At level 2 and onward the manipulator of darkness can surround his fist(or other natural weapon) with dark energy which causes any object it touches to start to get ripped apart atom by atom if a creature is able to make fort saves it can to take half damage and reduce the duration to half as well.( dc=10+1/2 manipulator of darkness level+ wisdom modifier)
(damage =1d4/per manipulator of darkness level and lasts 1d3/per manipulator of darkness level rounds).

As written, this doesn't say the sort of action it requires, or whether or not it stacks. Either way, it's decidedly overpowered at later levels if it does stack, and awkward even if it doesn't. At level 20, for example, it's an extra 20d4 or 20d4/2 damage per round (do they get a save each round or not?) for an average of 40 rounds. You also need to roll at least 20 extra dice each round, which is just untenable at most tables. Definitely an ability in need of a revision and some clarification.


Dark push*: At level 3 a Manipulator of darkness gains the ability “Dark push”. This allows him/her to through a ball of dark matter surrounded by dark energy this ball is about 6” big and is thrown in a straight line. This ball will push back any thing in its path that weighs 100lbs +15/permanipulator level back 5feet per manipulator level. If the object/enemy hits a wall or some other immovable object that stops them early they take damage that is equal to the distance they where thrown as if they had fallen this distance.

What sort of action is this? Also, the Bull Rush mechanic exists...perhaps you could use some variation on Bull Rushing instead of this? I know that, as a DM, I can't usually tell you the weight of a creature or object to within 15 pounds in either direction (unless 15 pounds is an appreciable fraction of the target's weight), and I'm willing to best most others are in a similar situation. Can you simplify this a bit by taking inspiration from the mechanics of, say, telekinesis or the Bull Rush mechanics?


Muscle mass 1and 2*: At level 4 a manipulator of darkness gains the ability to use dark mater to increase the mass of his/her fists (or other natural weapon) this ability is always active in terms of damage ,and in terms of grappling the person’s size is considered bigger, the fists (or natural weapon) die increases to on size category higher. And at level 13 the size category increases again by 1.This does not make the fists(or natural weapon) actual larger and they are no harder to move than before hand because the manipulator of darkness uses dark energy to help move them (strength bonuses still apply).This ability is lost if weapons that aren’t natural are used.

Let me rephrase this for you. I know what you mean, but it's clunky.

Muscle Mass (I & II) [Su*]: At fourth level, a Manipulator of Darkness gains the ability to use dark matter to increase the mass of his body. His
natural and unarmed attacks deal damage as if he were one size category larger than his actual size category, and he gains is likewise considered a size category larger for the purposes of grapple checks. At 13th level the Manipulator of Darkness is considered to instead be two size categories larger for the purposes of calculating damage with natural and unarmed attacks, as well as grapple checks.

*Abilities need to be marked with [Ex] (for superhuman but not supernatural abilities), (for supernatural abilities that aren't spells), or [Sp] (for spell-like abilities). These determine how the abilities interact with rules like anti-magic fields, among other things. There are a few other tags, but those aren't really applicable to this class. Most of these features should probably have the [Su] tag.


Repulsive skin1 and 2*: At level 4 a manipulator of darkness gains the ability to surround him/her self in dark energy creating a shield like effect that increases their AC by ¼ the characters manipulator of darkness level. If any armor is worn including shields this ability is lost. This ability is always on even if the character is incapacitated, helpless, or sleeping. Natural armor doesn’t affect this ability. At level 12 this increases to ½/per manipulator of darkness level.

Again, you need to state the action required to activate the ability (free, immediate, swift, move, standard, full, full-round), since it can be deactivated. Also, "this ability is lost" implies that you lose the class feature, not that you temporarily lose the bonus granted. Finally, if this doesn't stack with anything, the ability is rather useless, as it's a rather small bonus for a class that seems designed largely for melee combat. Perhaps consider granting straight Damage Reduction instead?

[S]
Gravity well*. A level 5 Manipulator of darkness can create a gravity well like effect by making a small black hole within a 150ft radius of him/her self. This black hole pulls anything that is at most 150lbs +10lbs per level of manipulator of Darkness towards it. The closer the object the higher the fort save to resist the pull, which are made every round this is in effect,.(within 5ft DC= 15+1/2 Manipulator of darkness level + wisdom modifier, if within 10-20ft DC=10+1/2 Manipulator of Darkness level + wisdom modifier, if within 25-50feet DC=5+1/2 Manipulator of Darkness level + wisdom modifier.).If an object is in the same square as the black hole then they must make a DC=20+1/2 manipulator of darkness level+ wisdom modifier fortitude save or instantly be crushed. If within a 5ft radius of black hole then movement speed (for a successful fort save ) is ¼ the original, if within 20ft it is ½ and if within 50ft it is ¾ that of normal. If a fort save for movement is failed then object/creature is pulled at 15ft per round if within 50ft ,20ft per round if within 20ft and is unable to move for 1d6 rounds if within the same square but hasn’t died. This ability like all others of the manipulator of darkness effect all within area of effect. This can be used once per day is a full round action ,provokes an attack of opportunity and doesn’t take effect for 1d4 rounds. If Manipulator is attacked in the round s/he is performing ability must make a concentration check or ability is instantly dismissed. To dismiss this the manipulator must take 2 full round actions to do so.

You've just tossed a Save-or-Die effect to a level 5 character. It also requires an impossibly high save to avoid. This is somewhat mitigated by the 1d4 round formation time, but all that does is make an unreliable power that will sometimes be completely useless, and other times basically auto-end the encounter. Creating a black hole of sorts (with some better mechanics behind it...this is needless complex) might be a great 20th level capstone ability, but it shouldn't be at level 5, especially with this level of potential power.

Edit: Ah. Missed the revision of this. It's still clunky, and could still use editing, but it's much less overpowered. In fact, it's actually a bit weak...unless I'm confused by the wording, which is possible.


Dark fists*: At level 7 the manipulators fists (or unarmed attack) is considered a magical weapon only for damage reduction and the manipulator chooses for the natural attack to be considered as piercing or slicing weapons as well as bludgeoning for purposes of damage reduction. This happens because the manipulator permanently infuses dark energy into and around the natural weapon.

Works fine. It could be better worded, but I'm not concerned about that at the moment. If you want some advice on the wording, just ask.


A Dark Friend*: The manipulator gains a better mastery of his/her abilities making the manipulator and all things s/he canisters to be an ally to become immune to all of the manipulator abilities unless the manipulator chooses otherwise.

All things she/he canisters? I think you mean "carries" there. :smallbiggrin: Other than that, this is probably fine.


Dark Slam*: The manipulator pulls in dark matter to increase his/her mass to 3x that of the original, surrounds their body in a ball of dark energy and propels them self forward with dark energy and slams into any enemies in their path. This ability is gained at level 9.The distance the manipulator travels is the same distance they can naturally run and is in a straight line(feats and other enhancements don’t apply to the distance).This can not be ended early if character encounters immovable object it brakes throw the object if it is nonliving if it is living character is stopped and both sides take damage(monsters who are 3 size categories or higher above the manipulator are considered unmovable). The damage is 2x the unarmed strike damage after a rolling of the dice but before modifiers and bonuses are added. An enemy can make a DC 15+1/2 manipulator level reflex save to take half damage if they are within the line of attack, if adjacent enemies are subjective to half damage unless they make a reflex save to avoid all damage. This can be used only once every 1/5 levels of manipulator of darkness. The character is exhausted for 1d10 rounds afterwards and is fatigued for 1d6 rounds after that. If the manipulator hits an immovable and unbreakable object his/her hit points is instantly reduced to -1 and they are dieing and unconscious. If they are stabilized and healed they will still stay unconscious for 1d4 x10minutes and is exhausted for 1d4 hours unless they rest.

...this entire ability needs to be re-worded and clarified. As written, a large creature is immovable...which means I automatically break through it. The save DC follows a really strange formula (15 + 1/2 level?), rather than anything standard. My damage is twice the dice my unarmed attack deals, plus no modifiers (was that intended). If I can't end my movement, will I run off cliffs, into lava, or over water? The attack is called a line, but any contact with an enemy stops the attack, so I'm sort of puzzled there. It can be used one every 1/5 levels...is that per day? The number of rounds I have to wait before using it again? Finally, there are a LOT of dangerous side-effects of this power, and I don't think it'd ever be worth it for the somewhat pitiful damage it actually will deal.


Half dark*: The Manipulator is half way to its true dreams and power. At level 10 a Manipulator of Darkness becomes partially incorporeal and has a 20% chance of ignoring all non magical and non incorporeal attacks. The appearance of the character is slightly faded do to the fact that dark matter and dark energy have no appearance but do affect the way light waves hit and move around them giving the Manipulator a slightly faded but outlined in light appearance. They also have a 50% chance of not being healed by conventional means and have a 30% chance of being healed by energy attacks. They do however heal 1d4 per ½ manipulator level per hour worth of hp this effect doubles to 2d8 when they are asleep or meditating(resting).

...now this is weird. A class focused on increasing mass suddenly has less mass? Further, while the 20% chance to be basically incorporeal is cool, the other percentages and abilities (healing, avoiding healing, and healing from energy attacks) seem tacked on, unrelated, and just extra work. You'd have to define "conventional means," as well as what counts as "energy" and how much those attacks heal. It's just to confusing. Simple usually equals better, so cut out the unneeded parts and figure out what you want to do with this ability.


A daunting weight*: at level 11 this allows a manipulator of Darkness to increase the mass of an enemy to the point it is unbearable and causes them to collapse and die under there own weight. This is a standard action and provokes an attack of opportunity. This ability can be used 1 time per day every 4 levels of manipulator of darkness. This ability can’t be used more than once in the same encounter unless the manipulator make a concentration check of DC 15 plus 5 for every use after the first. This does 1d8 damage for the first round and increases by another 1d8 every additional round it hurts its target.This lasts for 2d6 rounds plus wisdom modifier. For every round the target takes damage they lose 5 feet of movement speed because they are getting heavier. If the target is ever reduced to half of there hit points when this effect started they are instantly crushed if they fail a fort save of DC 15 + every round of damage from ability + # of fort saves against instant crush effect. This can stack if a concentration check, of 15 +5 for every one this encounter +5 for everyone on this target, is passed.

Again, this is needlessly complicated, and your DCs are all over the place. You need to find ways of simplifying these mechanics, or wording the abilities better. Further, instant-death abilities...eh. Not a fan, personally, but that's more my opinion than anything else. Either way, this is an unavoidable "stop moving and die" effect, which is definitely overpowered. It takes 5-6 rounds for that to happen but, once it does, the target is basically done for, and there's no real defense against it (except tons and tons of fortitude saves, none of which can end the effect).


Explosive Slam and throw*:At level 14 The dark slam and dark throw ability can both be stopped early but this now causes the dark energy and matter to explode out ward ,damaging and knocking back any enemies near by. This can only be used once per day for each ability. An enemy may make a reflex save, of DC 15+ 1/2manipulator level + wisdom modifier, to take half damage and if successful may make fortitude save to see if they are knocked back or not. (DC=15+ ½ manipulator level)An enemy that is 1 size category smaller or smaller than the manipulator is thrown 50ft if they hit an unmovable object they take damage as if they had fallen twice the distance they where thrown from there original position. If an enemy is the 0 or 1 size category higher than they are thrown 25 feet, if they hit an unmovable object then they take damage as if they fell twice the distance they where thrown from there original positions. If the enemy is 3 size categories higher or more they cannot be blown back by this effect and instead just take the initial damage. The damage taken from this is normal damage from ability+ 1d8 for every 2 levels in manipulator of darkness (max 8d8). If this is used with Dark slam the manipulator is knocked out for 1d6 rounds in addition to the exhaustion and fatigue they normally receive.

There is no ability named "Dark Throw." What is that supposed to refer to? That said, this is another of those needlessly clunky abilities, although that might be the wording. I feel you could accomplish something similar in concept but more graceful in execution if you didn't tie this so strangely to the existing abilities...


A Dark Lift*: At level 15 a Manipulator of darkness can as a standard action chose to make him/herself able to fly at their base land speed with average maneuverability. This can be applied to up to 1+ 1/5 level of manipulator targets at one time any higher and the manipulator has to succeed a will save of DC=15+5 for ever target already +5 for every target attempting to add. This ability can be dismissed as a swift action and only lasts on other targets for 3d6 rounds and lasts on the manipulator for 1d4 hours.

First off, you may as well just give yourself a fly speed [perfect] and be done with it. I rather like the ability to give your allies fly speeds, although I'd limit it to when they're within, say, a 10 or 15-foot radius of you, 'cause otherwise it's a little to potent (as your whole party is now flying 24/7). Then you don't need an activation action, as it's triggered by proximity, and also means your party needs to think a bit more about whether or not grouping up is worth the benefit of flight.


Crushing grip*: At level 16 whenever a manipulator has successfully grappled an enemy they can as a standard action tremendously increase their own mass and crush the enemy. The target can make a fort save of DC 10+ 1/2 manipulator level+ Strength modifier or be crushed instantly. If the succeed then they still take 1d6 per manipulator of darkness level damage. This causes the manipulator to become exhausted for 1d10 rounds and fatigued for 1d4 hours after wards. This ability can only be used once per day per wisdom modifier. If this is used while the manipulator is fatigued they become exhausted for 2d10 rounds and fatigued for 2d4 hours. If this is used while exhausted then the manipulator becomes unconscious for 1d4 hours and is exhausted when s/he wakes up for another 1d6 hours unless they rest for 8 or more hours.

I'm really not a fan of this "unconscious/fatigue/exhaustion" stuff. It's never a really good idea to balance a powerful ability by saying "and you take X penalties after using it," 'cause powerful abilities tend to end encounters...and thus the penalty only serves to bog down the game, rather than actually inflicting an in-combat choice. Perhaps, instead, the target takes something like 1d4 points of Constitution damage whenever the Manipulator of Darkness succeeds on a grapple check? It's not an instant-kill, but it does nicely represent crushing someone's body into useless pulp.


A Ripping Darkness*: At level 17 the manipulator can ripper an enemy apart into its individual atomic partials and completely destroy them. This ability is a full round action and can only be used once and can be used again after the manipulator has rested for at least 6 hours. This ability can be negated with a Fort save of DC=20+Wisdom modifier if this is save is successful the target can not move for 1d10 rounds. Whether or not this succeeds doesn’t matter the ability still cannot be used until the manipulator has rested for at least 6 hours and the manipulator also cant move for 1d4 rounds.

You keep handing out instant-kill moves, when the class would be more interesting and flavorful with things that aren't instant kill moves. Also, there's another of those strange DCs.


Dark skin*: At level 18 the manipulator is ever so close to there true power. S/he is now 40% incorporeal and enemies must make a spot check of 20 or they will not notice the nearly invisible manipulator.

Half Dark was largely okay...this is a bit weird, especially to see at level 18. Why not add something else and let the capstone be the only thing improving this stuff? Also, what the heck does "40% incorporeal" mean, ruleswise? You're either incorporeal, or you're not.

Also, why are you suddenly invisible?


Almost Dark*: At level 19 a manipulator has but one last step to becoming a true Formitenebro. The manipulator is now 60% incorporeal and enemies must make a spot of 25 or the manipulator is considered to be invisible.

See above.


A True Formitenebro*: A Manipulator is now no longer just a person with power they are now the very embodiment of what they once sought to control. They are 100% incorporeal and have a 25% chance of ignoring all magical effects cast on them(friendly or not).They now can use all of there abilities twice as often and the max for all damage from abilities is increased to two die sizes higher. They no longer need to rest and cannot be healed by normal means. A Formitenebro heals by converting matter and energy around them into dark matter and dark energy this is a constant effect and heals them 1d8 per level per hour this effect doubles when they are meditating on healing (resting)to 2d8 per level per hour. If they are attacked by any energy type they have a 60% chance of being healed by it instead of taking damage. Even though they are incorporeal they can still hurt and effect corporal things because they are infused with dark energy. This means if they pass threw a corporal object it becomes warped and distorted and is rendered useless. If the object is living it must make a Fort save of DC 20+ ½ manipulator level + wisdom modifier or become disfigured and take 5 Strength 5 Con and 5 Charisma points of permanent damage. Just like all abilities the Formitenebro can use this can not affect things it chooses not to. The appearance of the Formitenebro (if it where more visible than shimmers and distortions in the light) it would be a senseless ball like object floating in the air for this reason it is immune to all sneak attacks, critical hits, and cannot suffocate (doesn’t breath).They do not walk but merely float above the ground and are considered to be flying the have good maneuverability their fly speed is now double of there old base land speed. They no longer have a distinct sex and cannot reproduce (but can create others of its kind, but they cannot attack for them and do not have to listen to any command the Formitenebro gives them and are considered level 1).The Formitenebro is immune to all Fort saves and gains a Wisdom bonus of 5.(they still retain all of there base racial traits).


I'm not even going to go into this one, except to say that it's far to complex, adds things that don't make sense with the rest of the class (as presented), and is written as a wall of text rather than in a sensible fashion. There may be good ideas somewhere in there, but it's a mess of rules, bonuses, and text, and trawling through it is more than I want to do at the moment.



Sorry if the lay out is wired i originally had it on a Microsoft word doc and i coped and pasted it i tried to fix it as best as i could .

I'd take the time to learn the forum formatting, as it REALLY helps us when providing critique. This was, at times, rather hard to read. Some of the grammar, punctuation, and spelling could use a revision as well (simply for readability), but I'm personally not to bothered by that (in most cases...the capstone ability was a bit much). I understand that not everyone is a native English speaker, and/or not everyone cares as much about that as I personally do. Be warned, however, that some people will not read a class that isn't easily legible and nicely presented.


I know this is overpowered that is why i am asking for help with balance but i made it overpowered because ...we usually do gestalt but this time we decided it would be fine if we just made classes that would be as strong as gestalt so we wouldn't be underpowered...


It's not overpowered, honestly. It's strangely balanced, but not overpowered. That said, it's not a good balance.


Conclusion

This class doesn't know what it wants to be. On the one hand, it's a spellcaster with some darkness-themed abilities and some atom-ripping abilities (which don't mesh in flavor). On the other, it's a density-manipulating melee warrior. Both work, but not really together (as written, at least). You have tons of X/day abilities with strange requirements or aftereffects, which makes the whole class function awkwardly, when you should be aiming for something streamlined and easier to run.

I don't like the prevalence of X/day high power abilities. As mentioned by a previous poster, it makes for a "15 minute workday," and, further, it means there's a lot of uses for you to keep track of, which is never fun. Try to break out of that design philosophy and experiment a bit with other alternatives.

The class's flavor is definitely conflicting: either the darkness abilities seem out of place, or the density/gravity/science-y (atoms and suchlike) abilities seem out of place. They just don't mesh well conceptually without some good flavor, which you really don't have. I'm honestly not sure what this class is supposed to be, which is problematic.

Personally, I'd make this class a series of spells, a Prestige Class, and a Martial Discipline, and then weave them together in a Tome of Battle/Caster PrC, but I appreciate that you're looking to make a base class, and not get suggestions for completely re-envisioning the idea. That said, some serious alterations and changes need to happen to make this a focused, effective, and elegant class, the most important of which is that we need to know what it is that you're actually trying to make, conceptually. Is it a darkness mage? A gravity-manipulating warrior? What?

Once we know, we can take off the kid gloves and dive into ripping apart the homebrew and cleaning up some of the messy, if potentially interesting, class abilities you have there.

Anyway, welcome to the Playground. I'm the Djinn, and if you have any homebrewing questions now or in the future, feel free to drop me a PM (or, in this instance, just respond here...obviously. :smallbiggrin:).

PS: As an aside, mind putting that quote of yours in a signature, rather than tacking it on the end of every post? Some of us browse with signatures off to remove those things, and it makes quoting your posts more difficult. Not a major thing by any means though, nor do you have any obligation to actually to it. :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

[Ph@$3]

Thanx for all the feed back i am currently revising my class and when i am done will edit my first post and put it in a table so it is easier to read.
Sorry about the wording, grammar, and spelling
the reason you get the incorporeal abilities with the invisibility and the mass changing abilities is because dark matter and dark energy are/or effect all of these thing :P dark matter gives things more mass it effects the gravitational force on objects and it is entirely invisible and intangible to everything including itself while dark energy on the other hand is also invisible and intangible but it effects the gravitational force in the opposite way it pulls things apart and repels them and when i was making it i wasn't really conserved about wording i just wanted to get it done then fix it and make it more concise

and again thanx for all the feedback i will take al of these thing into consideration when revising my class :smallsmile:



We are Phase the undead god of insanity and knowledge.