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Mayhem
2011-03-19, 09:38 PM
I've always felt the default armour system is too basic, so I created a simple system for combining armours and making custom ones. The names for armours are generic, you can name/flavour them however you wish. I eventually designed this with 3 principles in mind: K.IS.S., Assumption:Readers are not morons, and the Rule of Cool. Special mention to ChainedBirds for giving me the feedback needed to make this work.

The armour here use damage reduction instead of AC, but there's no reason you can't use it as AC instead since it's made parallel to the existing armours. For games of mid levels and above, I recommed using this as armour class instead. If using this as AC, I have prepared tables with my recommended changes, these are listed after the DR tables in the spoiler below. I have also listed a combination of DR and AC, at the end.
The system:

The Crunch as DR:
Primary Armour
{table]Armour Name | DR | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF | Type
Padded Jacket | 3 | -1 | +6 | 30ft | 5gp | 10lbs | 10% | Light
Leather Harness | 3 | -0 | +8 | 30ft | 10gp | 5lbs | 5% | Light
Hide | 4 | -3 | +4 | 25ft | 15gp | 20lbs | 20% | Medium
Studded Leather | 4 | -2 | +5 | 30ft | 25gp | 15lbs | 15% | Light
Scale Shirt | 5 | -5 | +3 | 25ft | 100gp | 35lbs | 30% | Medium
Mail Shirt | 5 | -3 | +4 | 25ft | 150gp | 25lbs | 25% | Medium
Banded Harness^ | 6 | -5 | +3 | 25ft | 200gp | 35lbs | 30% | Heavy
Plate Harness | 6 | -4 | +4 | 25ft | 300gp | 25lbs | 25% | Medium[/table]
Secondary Armour
{table]Armour Name | DR | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF
Reinforcing Plates, Light | +1 | -1 | -1 | - | 5gp | 2lbs | +5%
Reinforcing Plates, Heavy | +2* | -2 | -2 | - | 50gp | 5lbs | +10%
Helmet, Light | +1 | -0 | - | - | 5gp | 3lbs | -
Helmet, Heavy | +2* | -2# | - | - | 50gp | 7lbs | +5%
[/table]
Wearing a second Armour
{table]Armour Name | DR | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF
Additional Armour, Light | +1 | -1 | -1 | special | special | special | +5%
Additional Armour, Heavy | +2 | -2 | -2 | special | special | special | +10%
[/table]
Key:
^ Characters in heavy armour run only 3 times their base speed, or 4 times with the run feat.
* This only applies to medium and heavy armours. For a light armour, the DR bonus is only 1. If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a light armour, the armour then becomes medium. If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a medium armour, the armour then becomes heavy.
# These penalties apply to spot and listen checks only.


The fluff and layering rules:
Layering armour:
If adding medium and light together, see adding light armour.
If adding two mediums together, see adding medium armour.
If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a light armour, the armour then becomes medium. If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a medium armour, the armour then becomes heavy.
Adding light armour: Use the highest DR of the two, and the worst max dex, ACP, and ASF. Add the stats of light additional armour, and add the weight of the two armours.
Adding medium: Use the highest DR of the two, and the worst max dex, ACP, and ASF. Add the stats of medium/heavy additional armour, and add the weight of the two armours. Two medium armours become heavy.
Masterwork armour and layering: Both armours must be masterwork in order for the masterwork quality to apply. The masterwork quality is only applied once.
Mithril and armour layering: The mithril quality is only added after the armour's type is calculated.
Example: Regdar wishes to wear mithril mail with mithril plate. Two medium armours become heavy, and
applying the mitril quality then makes Regdar's armour medium.
Maximum armour: You can have a maximum of 2 armours, 1 reinforcement, and 1 helmet.

All primary armours cover the torso, upper arms, and upper legs.

Reinforcements are the addition of bracers and greaves. Light can typically be described as padded leather plates or studded leather, and heavy can include mail, plate, and scale.


The alternative crunch as AC:
The following is the same as above, except for the primary armours. These have been reduced by 1 point.
Primary Armour
{table]Armour Name | AC | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF | Type
Padded Jacket | 2 | -1 | +6 | 30ft | 5gp | 10lbs | 10% | Light
Leather Harness | 2 | -0 | +8 | 30ft | 10gp | 5lbs | 5% | Light
Hide | 3 | -3 | +4 | 25ft | 15gp | 20lbs | 20% | Medium
Studded Leather | 3 | -2 | +5 | 30ft | 25gp | 15lbs | 15% | Light
Scale Shirt | 4 | -5 | +3 | 25ft | 100gp | 35lbs | 30% | Medium
Mail Shirt | 4 | -3 | +4 | 25ft | 150gp | 25lbs | 25% | Medium
Banded Harness^ | 5 | -5 | +3 | 25ft | 200gp | 35lbs | 30% | Heavy
Plate Harness | 5 | -4 | +4 | 25ft | 300gp | 25lbs | 25% | Medium[/table]
Secondary Armour
{table]Armour Name | AC | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF
Reinforcing Plates, Light | +1 | -1 | -1 | - | 5gp | 2lbs | +5%
Reinforcing Plates, Heavy | +2* | -2 | -2 | - | 50gp | 5lbs | +10%
Helmet, Light | +1 | -0 | - | - | 5gp | 3lbs | -
Helmet, Heavy | +2* | -2# | - | - | 50gp | 7lbs | +5%
[/table]
Wearing a second Armour
{table]Armour Name | AC | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF
Additional Armour, Light | +1 | -1 | -1 | special | special | special | +5%
Additional Armour, Heavy | +2 | -2 | -2 | special | special | special | +10%
[/table]
Key:
^ Characters in heavy armour run only 3 times their base speed, or 4 times with the run feat.
* This only applies to medium and heavy armours. For a light armour, the DR bonus is only 1. If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a light armour, the armour then becomes medium. If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a medium armour, the armour then becomes heavy.
# These penalties apply to spot and listen checks only.

The Crunch as DR AND AC:
Primary Armour
{table]Armour Name | DR | AC | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF | Type
Padded Jacket | 3 | 0 | -1 | +6 | 30ft | 5gp | 10lbs | 10% | Light
Leather Harness | 3 | 0 | -0 | +8 | 30ft | 10gp | 5lbs | 5% | Light
Hide | 4 | 1 | -3 | +4 | 25ft | 15gp | 20lbs | 20% | Medium
Studded Leather | 4 | 1 | -2 | +5 | 30ft | 25gp | 15lbs | 15% | Light
Scale Shirt | 5 | 2 | -5 | +3 | 25ft | 100gp | 35lbs | 30% | Medium
Mail Shirt | 5 | 2 | -3 | +4 | 25ft | 150gp | 25lbs | 25% | Medium
Banded Harness^ | 6 | 3 | -5 | +3 | 25ft | 200gp | 35lbs | 30% | Heavy
Plate Harness | 6 | 3 | -4 | +4 | 25ft | 300gp | 25lbs | 25% | Medium[/table]
Secondary Armour
{table]Armour Name | DR | AC | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF
Reinforcing Plates, Light | +1 | 0 | -1 | -1 | - | 5gp | 2lbs | +5%
Reinforcing Plates, Heavy | +2* | 1 | -2 | -2 | - | 50gp | 5lbs | +10%
Helmet, Light | +1 | 0 | -0 | - | - | 5gp | 3lbs | -
Helmet, Heavy | +2* | 1 | -2# | - | - | 50gp | 7lbs | +5%
[/table]
Wearing a second Armour
{table]Armour Name | DR | AC | ACP | Max Dex | Speed | Price | Weight | ASF
Additional Armour, Light | +1 | +1 | -1 | -1 | special | special | special | +5%
Additional Armour, Heavy | +2 | +1 | -2 | -2 | special | special | special | +10%
[/table]
Key:
^ Characters in heavy armour run only 3 times their base speed, or 4 times with the run feat.
* This only applies to medium and heavy armours. For a light armour, the DR bonus is only 1. If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a light armour, the armour then becomes medium. If heavy helmet and heavy reinforcements are worn together in a medium armour, the armour then becomes heavy.
# These penalties apply to spot and listen checks only.





Feats:
Here's some feats for it designed by Ashtagon. I haven't used them and I don't know how balanced they are, but they aren't game breakers.

This allows you to have a DR of up to 10. I guess it works fine when you are dealing 5-20 damage in a hit, but at high levels, when damage is routinely over 20 on a hit, it seems weak.

Maybe some feats?

Armiger
Prerequisites: BAB+2 or fighter 1
Benefit: You may add your base attack bonus to your DR, up to a maximum bonus equal to the DR of the armour you are wearing.

Improved Armiger
Prerequisites: BAB+8 or fighter 4, Armiger
Benefit: You may add your base attack bonus to your DR, up to a maximum bonus equal to twice the DR of the armour you are wearing.

Edit: Prerequisites should probably be changed to BAB+8/Ftr4 for Armiger, and BAB+12/Ftr8 for Improved Armiger. Otherwise, they effectively remove an entire tier worth of play, by making anyone who isn't level 1 have the feats.


Feats made by Rich Burlew, AKA The Giant:

Armor Focus [General, Fighter]
Choose any specific type of armor, such as chain mail or full plate armor. You are more adept at moving when wearing that armor.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected armor.
Benefit: When wearing the selected armor type, the armor check penalty applied to your skills is reduced by 1. This reduction stacks with that granted by masterwork armor, but cannot reduce the total armor check penalty to less than 0. The maximum Dexterity bonus for that armor increases by 1 if the armor is medium or heavy armor. These benefits apply both to standard armor and to armors made of special materials, such as mithral or adamantine.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times; its effects do not stack. Each time you select it, this feat applies to a different armor type.

Armor Specialization [Fighter]
Alternate Name: Armor Efficiency
Choose one type of armor, such as chain mail, for which you have already selected the Armor Focus feat. You are better at using that armor's natural advantages to protect yourself.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected armor, Armor Focus with selected armor, fighter level 4th.
Benefit:When wearing the selected armor, the armor bonus granted to your Armor Class is increased by +2. This bonus requires activity on your part, and thus the increase is lost whenever you are denied your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Because it is an increase in the armor bonus, it does not apply to incorporeal or touch attacks. You may also sleep in this armor without becoming fatigued or exhausted, regardless of its armor check penalty. This benefit applies both to standard armor and to armors made of special materials, such as mithral or adamantine.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times; its effects do not stack. Each time you select it, this feat applies to a different armor type for which you have learned Armor Focus.

Greater Armor Focus [General, Fighter]
Choose any specific type of armor, such as chain mail or full plate armor, for which you have learned the Armor Focus feat. You excel at moving while wearing that armor.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected armor, Armor Focus with selected armor.
Benefit: When wearing the selected armor type, the armor check penalty applied to your skills is reduced by 1. This reduction stacks with that granted by masterwork armor and that granted by Armor Focus, but cannot reduce the total armor check penalty to less than 0. The maximum Dexterity bonus for that armor increases by 1 if the armor is medium or heavy armor. These benefits apply both to standard armor and to armors made of special materials, such as mithral or adamantine.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times; its effects do not stack. Each time you select it, this feat applies to a different armor type for which you have learned Armor Focus.

Greater Armor Specialization [Fighter]
Alternate Name: Greater Armor Efficiency
Choose one type of armor, such as chain mail, for which you have already selected the Armor Specialization feat. You are even better at using that armor's natural advantages to protect yourself.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected armor, Greater Armor Focus with selected armor, Armor Specialization with the selected armor, fighter level 12th.
Benefit:When wearing the selected armor, the armor bonus granted to your Armor Class is increased by +2; this bonus stacks with the one granted by Armor Specialization. This bonus requires activity on your part, and thus the increase is lost whenever you are denied your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Because it is an increase in the armor bonus, it does not apply to incorporeal or touch attacks. This benefit applies both to standard armor and to armors made of special materials, such as mithral or adamantine.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times; its effects do not stack. Each time you select it, this feat applies to a different armor type for which you have learned Greater Armor Focus and Armor Specialization.

Shield Charge [General, Fighter]
Choose one type of shield with which you have learned Shield Focus. You have mastered using that shield to protect yourself while charging.
Prerequisites: Str 13+, Improved Shield Bash, Shield Focus with selected shield, proficiency with selected shield.
Benefit:You suffer no penalty to your Armor Class when charging while wielding the selected shield. You also gain a +2 increase to the shield bonus granted to your Armor Class against any attacks of opportunity made during your charge by the creature you are charging.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times; its effects do not stack. Each time you select it, this feat applies to a different shield type for which you have learned Shield Focus.

Shield Deflection [General, Fighter]
Choose one type of shield with which you have learned Shield Focus. You have mastered using that shield to bat away attacks that normally need only touch you.
Prerequisites: Dex 13+, proficiency with selected shield, Shield Focus with selected shield, Dodge.
Benefit: When wielding the selected shield, you may add the shield bonus to your Touch Armor Class. Include any increases to the shield bonus from feats or magical enhancement.
Normal: Touch and ranged touch attacks ignore shield bonuses to Armor Class.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times; its effects do not stack. Each time you select it, this feat applies to a different shield type for which you have learned Shield Focus.

Shield Focus [General, Fighter]
Choose one type of shield: buckler, light, heavy, or tower. You are more skilled at keeping the shield's weight from interfering with you movement.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected shield.
Benefit: While wielding the selected shield, the armor check penalty applied to your skills as a result of that shield is reduced by 1. This reduction stacks with that granted by a masterwork shield, but cannot reduce the total armor check penalty below 0. You may ready a shield for which you have learned Shield Focus as a free action. These benefits apply both to standard shields and to shields made of special materials, such as mithral or darkwood.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times; its effects do not stack. Each time you select it, this feat applies to a different shield type.

Shield Mount [General, Fighter]
You are adept at protecting the life of your mount with your shield.
Prerequisites: Mounted Combat, proficient with shields.
Benefit: While mounted and wielding a shield, your mount gains the same shield bonus to its Armor Class that you do (including increases due to Shield Specialization).

Shield Specialization [Fighter]
Choose one type of shield, such as bucklers, for which you have already selected the Shield Focus feat. You are better at blocking attacks with that type of shield.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected shield, Shield Focus with selected shield, fighter level 4th.
Benefit:While wielding the selected shield, the shield bonus granted to your Armor Class is increased by +2. This bonus requires activity on your part, and thus the increase is lost whenever you are denied your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Because it is an increase in the shield bonus, it does not apply to incorporeal or touch attacks. This benefit applies both to standard shields and to shields made of special materials, such as mithral or darkwood.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times; its effects do not stack. Each time you select it, this feat applies to a different shield type for which you have learned Shield Focus.

Looking Back…
Sometimes, an idea is so needed in the game that it’s not surprising that more than one person came up with it. There were a few other third party sources that designed their own versions of many of these feats, too, so when similar ideas showed up in official works, it was impossible to tell whether the designers had adapted one of the extant versions or noticed the gap themselves. As a result, my notes for this article are a little longer than normal.

Player’s Handbook II introduces feats titled Armor Specialization and Shield Specialization, but they do different things than the ones printed above. The PHBII Armor Specialization does not overlap with mine, so it’s OK to use both (you’ll probably want to change the name of my feat and its descendants to “Armor Efficiency” though, as noted in the descriptions above). The PHBII Shield Specialization, however, is very similar, except that the bonus is half as much and it dispense with the prerequisites beyond simple shield proficiency. Personally, I still like my feat better, since the point was to provide greater bonuses for high-level fighters, but each DM should probably pick one version to use and drop the other.

Likewise, PHBII has a feat called Shield Ward that is essentially a watered-down version of my Shield Deflection feat. Since the names are different, there’s no reason you couldn’t allow both, though my feat is stronger (for the price of two feat prerequisites instead of one).


Rich's armour specialisation feat can be applied to DR instead of AC. I think there needs to be a feat that improves DR without being a fighter, so I recommend the following feat to be used in conjuction with his feats

Armour training [Fighter]
Prerequisites: Proficiency with armor, Armor Focus: any, Base attack bonus +4.
Benefit:When wearing armor, the damage reduction granted is increased by +2. This bonus requires activity on your part, and thus the increase is lost whenever you are denied your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class. Because it is an increase in the armor bonus, it does not apply to incorporeal or touch attacks. This benefit applies both to standard armor and to armors made of special materials, such as mithral or adamantine.
So how does armour as DR work with armour enhancement bonus from magic armour? The answer is; the enhancement bonus still applies to AC, and it is recommended that it is also applied to the armour's DR.

How do you counterbalance the loss of AC from armour? Well, I recommend using class-based defence. D20 modern's version is good, it can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd). The spoiler contains which classes get which progression, and the progression tables based on d20 modern.
In my class-based defence system, I have both dodge and parry which I got the idea from Conan d20 by Mongoose publishing.
Dodge is dexterity-based and is used against all ranged attacks and touch attacks, while parry is strength-based. Shields add to parry except against ranged attacks, where they add to dodge instead. Dodge is also limited by the armour's maximum dexterity bonus while parry is not.

The progression tables:

{table] level | Poor | Average | Good
1 | 0 | 0 | 0
2 | 0 | 1 | 1
3 | 1 | 1 | 2
4 | 1 | 2 | 3
5 | 1 | 2 | 3
6 | 2 | 3 | 4
7 | 2 | 3 | 5
8 | 3 | 4 | 6
9 | 3 | 4 | 6
10 | 3 | 5 | 7
11 | 4 | 5 | 8
12 | 4 | 6 | 9
13 | 4 | 6 | 9
14 | 5 | 7 | 10
15 | 5 | 7 | 11
16 | 6 | 8 | 12
17 | 6 | 8 | 12
18 | 6 | 9 | 13
19 | 7 | 9 | 14
20 | 7 | 10 | 15
[/table]



Fighter/Knight/Paladin: Good parry, average dodge
Barbarian: Poor parry, good dodge
Monk: Good parry, good dodge. They don't need parry, but heck go nuts.
Rogue/Ranger/Bard/Cleric/Druid: Average parry, average dodge
Wizard/Sorcerer: poor parry, poor dodge



Hope someone finds this useful, and I'd like to know if I've missed anything out.

It has come to my attension that these rules cannot replicate fullplate. I came up with a basic mechanic for that, but my wording of it is poor:

For the following rules, a full suit of armour is defined as: a helmet, one or two pirmary armour/s, and 1 set of reinforcing plates.

A full suit of armour can be tailor made to suit an individual. Apply the following template to the suit:
{table]Armour Name | DR | ACP | Max Dex | Price | ASF
Light suit| +1 | +1 | +1 | 2d4x10gp | -5%
Medium suit| +1 | +1 | +1 | 2d4x50gp | -5%
Heavy suit| +1 | +1 | +1 | 2d4x75 gp | -5%
[/table]
In summary, increase the DR by 1, reduce the armour check penalty by 1, improve the max dexterity by 1, and lower the arcane spell failure by 5%.
A captured armour suit can be re-sized at the same price as the above.

Wearing a tailor fitted armour belonging to someone other than you does not provide you the above template. Apply the following penalty from the table below in its place:
{table]Armour Name | ACP | Max Dex | Price | ASF
Light fullsuit | -1 | -1 | +5%
Medium fullsuit | -1 | -1 | +5%
Heavy fullsuit | -1 | -1 | +5%
[/table]




Monsters and DR:

Monsters, without weapons and without class levels that grant dodge, use the table below.
{table] Natural armour | Damage reduction | Subtracted from natural armour
1-4 | 2 | 1
5-9 | 5 | 1
10-14 | 8 | 2
15-19 | 12 | 3
20-24 | 16 | 4
[/table]
Monsters, with weapons or class levels that grant dodge use, the this table below
{table] Natural armour | Damage reduction | Subtracted from natural armour
1-4 | 1 | 1
5-9 | 2 | 2
10-14 | 4 | 3
15-19 | 6 | 4
20-24 | 8 | 5
[/table]

SPoD
2011-03-19, 09:45 PM
I'm not sure I understand what the benefit of wearing two armors is. If you use the best DR and worst limiting factors (ASF, ACP, Max Dex) of the two, what does adding a second one get you? Unless maybe I'm just misreading the text.

Mayhem
2011-03-19, 09:55 PM
If one armour is light, you get a +1 bonus to DR. If both armours are medium or heavy, you get +2 to the armour's DR.
It's the same as adding reinforcement, basically.

SPoD
2011-03-19, 10:18 PM
I see. I didn't grasp that the column "Additional Armor" was meant to represent the situation of wearing two armors. That would be clearer if they were on their own table rather than included with the second table, which looks like an Equipment table to my eyes. I thought an "Additional Armor" was a specific type of armor add-on, like a spare tire.

Mayhem
2011-03-19, 10:25 PM
Ah cool thanks for the feedback. I'll shuffle things around.

Galileo
2011-03-20, 07:33 PM
The armour looks like a good system, and I think I'll probably suggest using it next time I DM. I'm not so sure about the AC system you recommend though. Using a fighter as an example, they'll have BAB and parry progressing at the same rate. So 1d20 + BAB to hit, and 10 + BAB to defend. Roughly, it removes the need to powergame your AC at higher levels, but what happens when someone uses this system and pumps up their AC using the regular methods? Seems like it's going to be fairly difficult to actually hit anything at all.

Mayhem
2011-03-20, 10:23 PM
Thanks for the feedback.

Yeah fair point on the class defense thing. Conan d20 uses 3/4 for good, 1/2 for average, and 7/20 for worst. D20 modern uses a similar system, here's (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd) the SRD for it actually.
I'm planning on E6, so I haven't tested my recommended system further than 6th level. I'll update my post with d20 modern's version.

Edit: Alright, it is done. It doesn't use d20 modern's version, but it is close.

Ashtagon
2011-03-21, 01:21 AM
I'm not sure I'll use that exactly as written, but it's definitely something similar to what I have planned.

Reviewing the other feats listed, the two I wrote are clearly more powerful. On the one hand, there has been a lot of power creep historically in feats. On the other, a character only gets seven feats, ever, so they should be a bit better than "+1 on attack rolls".

Mayhem
2011-03-21, 02:02 AM
Those other feats were written for AC so the match to DR isn't going to be perfect. Your feats might not work for E6, but I think they're good for standard.
Iron Heroes has feats to do with armour DR, but that's a whole different system entirely so they can't easily be extrapolated.

Ashtagon, when you're ready to show your system drop me line:smallsmile:. I'd like to see another take on this concept. What I learned was to use shields as a base for changing armour stats, so if you keep to that you'll do fine.
By the way, does anything jump out at you that you'd specifically change?

One thing about this DR system that bugs me, heavy armour fighters are nigh-impregnable. Conan d20 has weapon armour piercing scores that halve armour DR for that weapon's attacks if they're equal to or higher than the armour's DR. That's what I think I'll use but I don't think I'm going to post a table of modified weapon stats(Could breach copyright, and anyway it's a good book), though if you have the book you could PM me for my take on the PHB-to-Conan weapons.

Eldan
2011-03-21, 04:59 AM
I think it has the same problem as many armour as DR problems:

Damage is cheaper than hitting. Way cheaper. At mid levels, a dedicated fighter can easily dish out 50 damage or more per hit, the DR barely matters. At high levels, you'll be looking at hundreds of points of damage. At this point, everyone is pretty much better off using the lightest armour available, to maximize their AC from dexterity.

Mayhem
2011-03-21, 06:46 AM
Ah true, that's what I didn't see before.

20Str + bull's strength + Greatsword + 2xPower attack + flaming weapon + weapon enhancement + enlarge person + Weapon specialisation + etc.

I think at that stage there isn't much to do about it. Is it worth scaling up? Because at that level many magic attacks will just go straight through it anyway.

Eldan
2011-03-21, 06:56 AM
Include, at the very least, a way for magic enhancements to increase that DR drastically. If you want to handle all defence via DR, don't be afraid to make DR ridiculously high. Perhaps a +5 suit gives DR 50 (arbitrary number). Then stack on adamantine (DR 5) and plate (DR 6) and you have at least a chance. Of course, that makes you totally invulnerable to low-level things, and seriously screws over "1000 needles" type attackers who have ten attacks at 8 damage each or something.

Or use the system presented in Unearthed Arcana: armour gives a bit of DR and a bit of AC.

Mayhem
2011-03-21, 07:35 PM
Good idea, I might as well go the whole hog. Monks are their own problem though, so can't really help that.

By the way, do you happen to have character sheets of different levels on hand?

Edit: thinking about your idea of adamantine, I like how that'll make the difference between mithril and adamantine a big style choice.

Eldan
2011-03-22, 04:45 AM
I'm not even really talking about monks.

Think of a ranger, perhaps, or a swashbuckler, fighting with two shortswords or similar weapons. If he gets Greater TWF, he has seven attacks per turn. If he gets hasted, eight. However, his attacks will have a base damage of 1d6, perhaps (if he has scout levels as well) another 2d6 precision damage, and only 1:1 power attack, so let's say he can use 5 points of that if he still wants to hit with most attacks. Since he has to pump his dexterity for his feats, his strength will also be low. Say, +2 from strength.

In the current system, he has a potential damage of 3d6+7 per attack. That adds up, with seven attacks, to a respectable 21d6+49, or an average of a bit over a hundred (that's without enchantments, of course).

However, each of his attacks only deals an average of 17.5 damage. Even DR 10/-- more than halves his damage output. If his opponent had magical adamantine full plate, he can just about forget to ever scratch him.

Mayhem
2011-03-22, 05:08 AM
Point taken.
I should elaborate on how characters can get around armour damage reduction actually, although it won't work against monsters. Not that monsters will have much DR. That reminds me, I never adressed monsters and DR either, but anyway.

Finesse
Finesse fighter's don't seek to batter through armour, but rather find the crevices and chinks even the finest armour must have. If A finesse fighter's attack roll beat's the target's AC by a number equal to atleast the DR of the armour, that armour is completely ignored.

Armour piercing
Conan d20 has weapon armour piercing scores that halve armour DR for that weapon's attacks if their AP score is equal to or higher than the armour's DR. Characters can add their strength bonus to their weapon's armour piercing score. A weapon with an armour piercing score of 0 is simply incapable of ignoring armour however hard one swings it.
I'm not sure on the copyright of posting weapon stats, so I don't think I'll do that. Armour piercing causes problems with monsters such as giants carrying weapons and having huge strength scores so they'll often halve the group's armour DRs.

Ashtagon
2011-03-22, 08:31 AM
I'm not sure that really works as a fix for finesse attacks. Once the target has DR 20, you're basically saying the finesse guy has to beat his AC by 20+ to do any damage. If the finesse guy has any chance at all of rolling that high, balance has long since reached the point where the brute guys are routinely hitting without any need of a roll. I'm not sure D&D scales well at that extreme level of attack roll advantage.

Mayhem
2011-03-22, 09:49 AM
Herp, that's true. Could be fixed with a feat, but finesse fighters are struggling on that front.
Alright, I'm gonna need to go away and make some characters up if I'm gonna get anywhere with this. Fighter(2 handed), fighter(sword&board), two-weapon fighter(maybe ranger), rogue(finesse), rogue(other), wizard, druid, and cleric. Will that cover the bases?

Eldan
2011-03-22, 09:52 AM
Aye.

Suggested fix: the weapon finesse feat. Either have it add dexterity to damage as well, which helps a bit, or add a passage that you can ignore X points of DR with it automatically. Alternatively, make a feat like:

"Hitting the chinks"

Prereqs: Weapon finesse, Dex 14+, BAB +1
Benefit: you ignore 10 points of DR from armour when using finesse weapons:.

As for monsters: it seems to me the consistent approach would be to treat natural armour similar to item armour.

Mayhem
2011-03-22, 11:50 AM
I had a fancy table for monster natural armour before, but I hit something one my keyboard and lost it. So I raged and just linked UA but I'll do it again soon.

"Armour bypassing finesse"
Prereqs: Weapon finesse, Dex 15+, BAB +1
Benefit: you ignore 5 points of DR when making finesse attacks.

"Sneak attack finesse"
Prereqs: Sneak attack, weapon finesse
Benefit: For the purposes of bypassing DR via finesse attack, you may add your sneak attack dice to your attack roll.

Thoughts?

Edit: monster DR updated
Monsters and DR:

{table] Natural armour | Damage reduction | Subtracted from natural armour
1-4 | 2 | 1
5-9 | 5 | 1
10-14 | 8 | 2
15-19 | 12 | 3
20-24 | 16 | 4
[/table]

Ashtagon
2011-03-22, 12:19 PM
Maybe call that feat something else? East Asians might feel offended.

Mayhem
2011-03-22, 01:03 PM
"Hitting the joints" No.
"Hit the gaps" No.
"Hide the sword" No.
"Find the joints" No.
Oh boy now everything seems wrong.:smalleek:

"Bypassing finesse" will do :smallwink:.

I've worked out Dragonhide:
Dragonhide:
Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dragons to produce armor or shields of masterwork quality. One dragon produces enough hide for a single suit of masterwork hide armor or one set of masterwork heavy reinforcements for a creature one size category smaller than the dragon. By selecting only choice scales and bits of hide, an armorsmith can produce one suit of masterwork banded armour for a creature two sizes smaller,
one suit of masterwork hide armour and one set of masterwork heavy reinforcements for a creature three sizes smaller, or one masterwork breastplate or masterwork banded armour and set of masterwork heavy reinforcements. In each case, enough hide is available to produce a small or large masterwork shield in addition to the armor, provided that the dragon is Large or larger.
In addition to the masterwork quality, dragonhide increases an armour's damage reduction by 1 point.
Furthermore, dragonhide provides energy resistance of the same type as the dragon's energy immunity. This is equal to 2 for heavy reinforcement, hide armour, and light shields. For banded, plate and heavy shields this energy resistance is equal to 5 instead.

Because dragonhide armor isn’t made of metal, druids can wear it without penalty.

Ordinarily reinforcement cannot be masterwork, however dragonhide is an exception. Dragonhide heavy reinforcement also provides +2 DR bonus to a light armour, rather than +1.

Dragonhide armor costs double what masterwork armor of that type ordinarily costs, but it takes no longer to make than ordinary armor of that type.

Dragonhide has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 10.
Still going on the adanmantine though.