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grimbold
2011-03-20, 06:58 AM
I just got back from a fencing tournament (yay I'm 9th best in paris in the under 16 category) and was thinking, wouldn't it be cool to see if my fellow playgrounders fence?
so my question is
does anybody else in the playground fence?

Innis Cabal
2011-03-20, 07:37 AM
I'm a pretty good fencer. Here's a picture of some of my recent work.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u131/Tebryn_Cabal/ski-fence.jpg

Serpentine
2011-03-20, 07:45 AM
Bet it isn't.

I have had exactly one experience with fencing. At a school camp, I joined up for some fencing. They put us in suits and lined us up. First to 3 points (or something like that) goes on to the next fight. Loser goes away.
Guess what I did?

I had no frickin' idea what was going on, and they didn't even give us a basic rundown of... anything. My first and only experience with fencing involved me standing around, waggling the foil, and suddenly being told I lost. :smallannoyed: :smallfrown:

grimbold
2011-03-20, 08:20 AM
Bet it isn't.

I have had exactly one experience with fencing. At a school camp, I joined up for some fencing. They put us in suits and lined us up. First to 3 points (or something like that) goes on to the next fight. Loser goes away.
Guess what I did?

I had no frickin' idea what was going on, and they didn't even give us a basic rundown of... anything. My first and only experience with fencing involved me standing around, waggling the foil, and suddenly being told I lost. :smallannoyed: :smallfrown:

wow
i am sorry that had to happen :(

and innis cabal a lot of my friends at school thought thats what fencing was before i explained it to them

Innis Cabal
2011-03-20, 08:26 AM
I'm sad to hear that to. I was just making a joke. Well two but I felt the second one might be misunderstood and deleted it. Though I personally thought both were quite clever.

Greensleeves
2011-03-20, 08:26 AM
I picked up fencing last September, when I first came to college, and I must say it's really fun. It's both physically and mentally demanding, plus it requires skill, so when I lose I've got no one to blame but myself.

I'm not really sure if I'm any good, but I win more than I lose, which is something, I suppose.

pffh
2011-03-20, 08:32 AM
Saber fencer here. Been fencing for a couple of years but due to schoolwork I rarely have time to practice now. :smallannoyed:

Perenelle
2011-03-20, 10:39 AM
I've wanted to fence for a while, but there's no place that teaches it anywhere around here and I'm way too busy. And the equipment is expensive. :smallfrown:

It looks really fun though, I'd love to learn one of these days.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 10:58 AM
I fenced for about 3 years before being forced to quit because of age restrictions.

I did all three of them, foil, epée and sabre, but sticked to epée because of the aditional targeting area and reduced "that point shouldn't have counted because it touched the leg before sliding to the torso", also, the ability to say "headshot!" was worth it.

I'm now in the process of trying to acquire a real rapier (or make one if else fail) and looking for a new fencing academy since the other one kicks you out the moment you turn 16.

uchiha191942
2011-03-20, 11:18 AM
I have been and avid fencer for 4 years and I am 15 now. I don't go into tournaments because I don't have have the electric equipment needed for fencing saber. I fence at weslyan college (even though I don't go to college) in Virginia beach V.A.

userpay
2011-03-20, 12:15 PM
I probably wouldn't mind getting into fencing but to my knowledge noone around here teaches it. There is the Renaissance Faire I work at though thats only for a few weekends out of the year.

Jonesh
2011-03-20, 12:29 PM
I fenced with... foils I think when I was like 10 or something. It was kind of fun but I later quit. Can't remember why, but I can't remember much from before I was 16.
I think I might be a clone or a doppelganger robot or something :smallbiggrin:

Lyesmith
2011-03-20, 12:57 PM
Foil is for boys, Epeé is for men, Sabre is for animals.

You'll never guess which one I do.

I picked it up this year at uni, most of the club are at Invicta as we speak, I couldn't make it due to time constraints, sadly.

Still. Fencing rocks.

grimbold
2011-03-20, 01:47 PM
heres a question about fencing
in my first fencing club about half the club was composed of D&D and MTG addicts
do your clubs also have a lot of people who are into fantasy

SurlySeraph
2011-03-20, 01:50 PM
I fenced a bit when I was young, and was terrible at it. My sister, on the other hand, made All American in fencing for her college a couple years ago.

Brother Oni
2011-03-20, 01:51 PM
I've no experience of fencing beyond what I've seen in the movies, but I have some sword experience from re-enactment and aikido.

Could somebody explain to me the differences between foil, epeé and sabre styles? I'm guessing that the different edges and weights of the weapons indicate more aggressive/brutal styles, especially in light of Aziraphale's comment.

Kobold-Bard
2011-03-20, 01:59 PM
I've no experience of fencing beyond what I've seen in the movies, but I have some sword experience from re-enactment and aikido.

Could somebody explain to me the differences between foil, epeé and sabre styles? I'm guessing that the different edges and weights of the weapons indicate more aggressive/brutal styles, especially in light of Aziraphale's comment.

I don't fence, but I'm looking to get into it so I have looked at this recently.

Long story short:

Foil & Epee = score with the point
Sabre = score with the edge

Foil: score on torso
Epee: score anywhere
Sabre: Score from the waist up (because it's ungentlemanly to attack a man's horse in combat, so you don't aim for the legs)

As I said I don't fence so this could be completely wrong.

----------------
How hard is fencing to get into? Will most clubs supply equipment, or do you really have to buy your own?

grimbold
2011-03-20, 02:01 PM
kobold bard you are absolutely correct :)
also
saber is the best :smallbiggrin:

Maelstrom
2011-03-20, 02:03 PM
I just got back from a fencing tournament (yay I'm 9th best in paris in the under 16 category) and was thinking, wouldn't it be cool to see if my fellow playgrounders fence?
so my question is
does anybody else in the playground fence?

Congrats on your ranking!

And to answer your question, I used to, but then life happened :(

SurlySeraph
2011-03-20, 02:04 PM
Foil: torso is the target, you can only hit with point of the sword. Relatively defense-oriented, often see longish bouts when both people defend well.
Epee: entire body is the target, you can only hit with point of the sword. Rewards being tall, since reach is relatively more important than with the other weapons, because your opponent has a larger area to defend. Bouts are sometimes won by poking someone in the glove or ankle.
Saber: torso and head are the targets, and you can hit with the edge of the blade as well as with the point. Tends to be faster and more aggressive than the others; a lot of bouts are basically both guys charging and trying to hit the other person first, without paying much attention to parrying.

Also, no one mention "timing changes." Any timing changes. Fencers have strong opinions about them.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 02:23 PM
heres a question about fencing
in my first fencing club about half the club was composed of D&D and MTG addicts
do your clubs also have a lot of people who are into fantasy

Only I was into fantasy and D&D, all the others were into a lot less geeky past times.


----------------
How hard is fencing to get into? Will most clubs supply equipment, or do you really have to buy your own?

When you go past the first 3 classes of mixed theory/practice it becomes incredibly fun (apart from the necessary jogging at the start of each lesson). Half of fencing is practice, the other half is learning to abuse fléche.

The only necessary knowledge to fence correctly is the posture (normally first class), sidestepping (which after posture is incredibly intuitive, first and second class) and then it's lunging and parrying (the basics in class 3).
Afterwards is refining the before-mentioned.

From my experience, clubs will normally supply it, but remember that it is expensive so it will probably be very old and a swamp in the inside, so be wary. Some will lend it for championships, but unless you are representing and there is enough for everyone representing the club, don't count on it.

Depending on the quality it ranges from relatively inexpensive to the price of two lungs and a liver in the black market.

There is also the option of making your own, but this is not recommended unless you know a medium level of metallurgy/whitesmithing and have access to the necessary equipment for it, also, most tournaments ask for certified equipment so don't count on it always working.

The usual price of the weapon in amateur level is around 60$ (I've found electric ones for 51$ but I doubt the quality), depending on the material and the brand it can go up to the 300$.
The protection is around 100$.

Starter Kits are also for sale, normally for around 130$.


But you probably won't be buying equipment until you start going into serious championships.


Also, no one mention "timing changes." Any timing changes. Fencers have strong opinions about them.
You'll love them at the start, those cool kids that hit you on the back will fail and TADIN! instant lunge and point.

And you'll hate them when you learn to do it since you'll finally see what they took away with it.

But there is always Fléche abuse, so it's not that bad.


To elaborate:
Timing Changes normally screw up a number of techniques and strategies.

What is a Timing Change?
It's a change in the minimum time needed for a weapon to be touching an opponent for the point to count.

What this represents.
It means certain attacks in which the tip only touches the opponent briefly, like hitting your opponent in the back by using your wrist to make the blade bend, become tactically useless since you run odds it won't touch your opponent long enough for it to score and meanwhile will leave you open, resulting in an easy point for your opponent.

grimbold
2011-03-20, 03:00 PM
Half of fencing is practice, the other half is learning to abuse fléche.
YES
On timing changes
they can be horrible horrible things
imagine
you have an awesome attack planned
as yoou retreat you are going to flick your wrist up and catch your opponent on your wrist
you do so
you start jumping around screaming
DID YOU SEE THAT WHAT NOW!!!
then you get hit and realize the light didnt go off

Kallisti
2011-03-20, 03:11 PM
@people curious about fencing: the fencing center I take lessons from supplies all the equipment we need for classes, but I'd probably need my own if I started fencing competitively.

How hard is it to get into...if you mean how hard is it to get good, I can't say, I don't fence in competitions but I do all right-ish against my classmates. If you mean how hard is it to get absorbed in, very very easy. Fencing is a lot of fun, especially foil, which is the best weapon and anyone who tells you otherwise is objectively wrong.:smalltongue:

Kobold-Bard
2011-03-20, 03:15 PM
Are you allowed to fence lefty? Or would I have to do it right handed?

Once I graduate & have way too much time on my hands while looking for a proper job, I'm definitely taking this up.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 03:19 PM
Are you allowed to fence lefty? Or would I have to do it right handed?

Once I graduate & have way too much time on my hands while looking for a proper job, I'm definitely taking this up.

I am right-handed and I fence lefty.

Not only are you allowed, it is actually a great advantage and tactic.

The majority of the population is right-handed and therefore fencers expects attacks made by a right handed, an attack by a left handed screws that and puts the right handed at disadvantage since he has to deal with unexpected attacks and unusual counters.

Kallisti
2011-03-20, 04:00 PM
I am right-handed and I fence lefty.

Not only are you allowed, it is actually a great advantage and tactic.

The majority of the population is right-handed and therefore fencers expects attacks made by a right handed, an attack by a left handed screws that and puts the right handed at disadvantage since he has to deal with unexpected attacks and unusual counters.

Unless of course the instructor has taken time to teach the skill of fencing opposite-handed opponents. A lefty not expecting a right-handed fencer to do smart things like go for the outside line might give up a touch before they figure it out.

That said, yes, being left-handed is generally an advantage. I think the biggest advantage to it is that when a left-handed fencer hugs the left hand of the strip, the right-handed fencer instinctively hugs the right hand of the strip, which only exposes more target and increases the lefty's advantage. People don't always think about things like that. It took me forever to stop doing it.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 04:12 PM
Unless of course the instructor has taken time to teach the skill of fencing opposite-handed opponents. A lefty not expecting a right-handed fencer to do smart things like go for the outside line might give up a touch before they figure it out.

That said, yes, being left-handed is generally an advantage. I think the biggest advantage to it is that when a left-handed fencer hugs the left hand of the strip, the right-handed fencer instinctively hugs the right hand of the strip, which only exposes more target and increases the lefty's advantage. People don't always think about things like that. It took me forever to stop doing it.
But by the time someone like that appears you probably have several championships under your arm have seen matches of decently trained right-handed people against left-handed people (because you should see matches on youtube and go to tournaments in which you aren't participating to learn about your opponents), so you are already prepared.

Kallisti
2011-03-20, 04:15 PM
But by that time you probably have several championships under your arm and have fought against left handed opponents, and probably have seen matches of decently trained right-handed people against left-handed people, so you are already prepared.

Hmmm. Your instructor must have different priorities than mine. I'm a novice fencer at best, and he's taught our class the basics of opposite-handed fencing. Go under the arm 'cause that's where the target is, attack lefties on the outside lines, don't fence diagonally. It probably helps that we have two lefties in the class, so we have to deal with opposite-handed pairs relatively often.

pffh
2011-03-20, 04:20 PM
Are you allowed to fence lefty? Or would I have to do it right handed?

Once I graduate & have way too much time on my hands while looking for a proper job, I'm definitely taking this up.

Being a lefty is a huge help. Not only are many right handed fencers not used to fighting a lefty but at least in sabre fencing you can sometimes hug the right side or even the right corner of the ground and thus halving the area you need to defend and that means your sword can easily cover you all.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 04:20 PM
Hmmm. Your instructor must have different priorities than mine. I'm a novice fencer at best, and he's taught our class the basics of opposite-handed fencing. Go under the arm 'cause that's where the target is, attack lefties on the outside lines, don't fence diagonally. It probably helps that we have two lefties in the class, so we have to deal with opposite-handed pairs relatively often.

My instructor taught us defending against spam-able tactics first and relied on practice for fighting against opposite handed later on. He recommended me to take on left-handed fencing if I wished to do so since the initial disadvantage would later on become an advantage. My class was mostly left handed while the instructor was right handed, so we learnt how to take advantage but not rely on it through practice. Theory and direct teaching was mostly reserved for the defences and ripostes.

Timeless Error
2011-03-20, 04:21 PM
I've been fencing foil for almost 3 years now.

Lyesmith
2011-03-20, 05:11 PM
Attack spamming rarely works out in your favour, considering the priority switch.

Then again, if you can keep them on the defensive you'll land one eventually. "Attack is no, Attack is no, Attack is no, Attack is no, Attack is no, Attack is no, Attack comes though, touche"

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 05:19 PM
Attack spamming rarely works out in your favour, considering the priority switch.

Then again, if you can keep them on the defensive you'll land one eventually. "Attack is no, Attack is no, Attack is no, Attack is no, Attack is no, Attack is no, Attack comes though, touche"

One word: Fléche

It's fast, and if it fails it forces a repositioning, repeat ad nauseum, the only way to stop it is to score before the other one does and before he goes beyond you, and you open yourself in the process, so it's high risk for you and low risk for the one executing it.

Alleine
2011-03-20, 05:33 PM
Well, its safe to say most of you are way more into this than I am. I've been doing it for 2 years now, alternating foil/epee every semester(because thats the way the classes are taught, though I skipped the last foil class). I prefer epee, but I still parry like a foilist, which gets my teacher mad :smallbiggrin:
At least my parrys are enough to frustrate my friend who has gone to tournaments and come away with medals. Heh.

I've never tried a Fleche, the teacher generally doesn't teach it because most of the people who take the class are doing so for the first time and will undoubtedly do it wrong/bad/dangerously. Naturally someone still found out how to do it and tries to do it occasionally even though it's mean to the beginners and he isn't a very good fencer to begin with :smallmad:

I might take fencing more seriously if I went to the club, but it's also at the school and at night. I have no desire to drive 1/2 an hour to and from school twice. Once is enough :smallsigh:

unosarta
2011-03-20, 05:35 PM
Woo! I have been fencing for like 4 years now. Wonderful sport.


One word: Fléche

It's fast, and if it fails it forces a repositioning, repeat ad nauseum, the only way to stop it is to score before the other one does and before he goes beyond you, and you open yourself in the process, so it's high risk for you and low risk for the one executing it.

Actually, this really depends. For me, as a lefty, fleshing is probably a bad thing to do, since preme (still don't know how to spell that) essentially beats Fléche every time, since you don't wind up with the other problems associated with it, like using it outside of distance. If the opponent is Fléching at any reasonable speed, your preme will almost always end up in distance, depending on when you do it. And the repost is fairly easy, once you get some practice with it.

Basically the best part of fencing is that there is no one great, amazing move. Flicks are awesome if your opponent has bad hand positioning, Fléches are great if they don't see it coming/can't retreat out of distance, etc, etc. However, for every move there is a counter-move, and for every counter-move, there is a logical response in action. That is what makes it such a wonderful sport.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 05:36 PM
Well, its safe to say most of you are way more into this than I am. I've been doing it for 2 years now, alternating foil/epee every semester(because thats the way the classes are taught, though I skipped the last foil class). I prefer epee, but I still parry like a foilist, which gets my teacher mad :smallbiggrin:
At least my parrys are enough to frustrate my friend who has gone to tournaments and come away with medals. Heh.

I've never tried a Fleche, the teacher generally doesn't teach it because most of the people who take the class are doing so for the first time and will undoubtedly do it wrong/bad/dangerously. Naturally someone still found out how to do it and tries to do it occasionally even though it's mean to the beginners and he isn't a very good fencer to begin with :smallmad:

I might take fencing more seriously if I went to the club, but it's also at the school and at night. I have no desire to drive 1/2 an hour to and from school twice. Once is enough :smallsigh:

Try to print a fléche tutorial or watch it online and remember it, then in class you refine it. It's a great technique to know, even if only doing it for fun.

Alleine
2011-03-20, 05:39 PM
Try to print a fléche tutorial or watch it online and remember it, then in class you refine it. It's a great technique to know, even if only doing it for fun.

I'll just get my friend to explain it to me. He's pretty dang good, and been fencing for quite a while longer than anyone else I know. I'm not sure if I trust my point control enough to use it though, not to mention no matter what I do on every attack I always seem to open up in such a way that anyone can stop hit me. :(

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 06:30 PM
Fun Fact: In every beginning fencing class the group will be split in a fashion similar to the one presented bellow.


People who think it's like in the movies - 30%
People who think it's like Star Wars -30%
People who think it's the same as fighting with Katanas -20%
People who were forced by their parents into it - 5%
People who seriously want to fence - 5%
People who feel fencing will make them interesting/Frustrated aristocrats - 10%

Normally by the third session they will be cured from this ideas or have left with the exception of the last two groups. Usually in championships the only two groups you will see are the last two.

Anecdote:
A guy of the third group entered a championship.
My first match in it was against him. At the start of the round, he quickly begins going backwards, I decide it's a great chance to pull a fléche so I go backward a bit, and just before I go for it, the guy raises his foil like if it was a katana and runs toward me screaming what I believe was a mix between Japanese and French, slashing furiously. I point my foil forward and stay calm and put. He "impaled" himself. He would repeat the procedure for 3 points, when his trainer decided to forfeit the match for reasons I suspect were based mainly in shame. To this day I wonder how he managed to get selected to enter a championship.

pffh
2011-03-20, 07:04 PM
Anecdote:
A guy of the third group entered a championship.
My first match in it was against him. At the start of the round, he quickly begins going backwards, I decide it's a great chance to pull a fléche so I go backward a bit, and just before I go for it, the guy raises his foil like if it was a katana and runs toward me screaming what I believe was a mix between Japanese and French, slashing furiously. I point my foil forward and stay calm and put. He "impaled" himself. He would repeat the procedure for 3 points, when his trainer decided to forfeit the match for reasons I suspect were based mainly in shame. To this day I wonder how he managed to get selected to enter a championship.

Wouldn't he be disqualified for the screaming? At least in all the tournaments I've been in you can't talk or scream or cause any verbal distraction while fighting. Of course we all shout and celebrate once you got the point (especially if it was a close one to "help" the judges make up their mind :smalltongue: ) but during the fight it will at least get you reprimanded or even a card.

unosarta
2011-03-20, 07:06 PM
Wouldn't he be disqualified for the screaming? At least in all the tournaments I've been in you can't talk or scream or cause any verbal distraction while fighting. Of course you all shout and celebrate once you got the point but during the fight it will at least get you reprimanded or even a card.

It depends on the director. Technically, not as far as I know, but I do know that the director has the right to card you for being "annoying or disruptive", so there is that. I know people who scream during the actual round who are not carded, so it probably depends on the director/s.

Timeless Error
2011-03-20, 07:09 PM
Fun Fact: In every beginning fencing class the group will be split in a fashion similar to the one presented bellow.


People who think it's like in the movies - 30%
People who think it's like Star Wars -30%
People who think it's the same as fighting with Katanas -20%
People who were forced by their parents into it - 5%
People who seriously want to fence - 5%
People who feel fencing will make them interesting/Frustrated aristocrats - 10%

Normally by the third session they will be cured from this ideas or have left with the exception of the last two groups. Usually in championships the only two groups you will see are the last two.

:smallbiggrin: I was in the first group, and I'm still actively fencing.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 07:10 PM
Wouldn't he be disqualified for the screaming? At least in all the tournaments I've been in you can't talk or scream or cause any verbal distraction while fighting. Of course we all shout and celebrate once you got the point (especially if it was a close one to "help" the judges make up their mind :smalltongue: ) but during the fight it will at least get you reprimanded or even a card.

You get a yellow card, you need three of those to be thrown out, some judges are more lenient than others. Also, there is the fact that the judges know when you committed an offence to nullify a point and weigh that in. Finally, it also depends on the weigh of the championship and the stakes. Shouting will get you thrown out of the nationals, while it may only be a slight annoyance at a small inter academy competition because the judges there aren't even official judges but more enthusiasts or trainers than judges.

Alleine
2011-03-20, 07:16 PM
Fun Fact: In every beginning fencing class the group will be split in a fashion similar to the one presented bellow.


People who think it's like in the movies - 30%
People who think it's like Star Wars -30%
People who think it's the same as fighting with Katanas -20%
People who were forced by their parents into it - 5%
People who seriously want to fence - 5%
People who feel fencing will make them interesting/Frustrated aristocrats - 10%

Normally by the third session they will be cured from this ideas or have left with the exception of the last two groups. Usually in championships the only two groups you will see are the last two.

It's really disturbing how accurate that is. My instructor beats it out of everyone though. The first 2-3 weeks is all conditioning, and it is brutal. It doesn't help that she has this tendency to say things like "Ok, one more set!" and then go on for two more sets, or "alright, 20 counts of this" and proceed to not count for about ten of them, or pause in the middle to shout encouragement, while missing quite a few counts only to pick up right where she left off. She totally does it on purpose too. It's great :smallbiggrin:

unosarta
2011-03-20, 07:16 PM
You get a yellow card, you need three of those to be thrown out, some judges are more lenient than others. Also, there is the fact that the judges know when you committed an offence to nullify a point and weigh that in. Finally, it also depends on the weigh of the championship and the stakes. Shouting will get you thrown out of the nationals, while it may only be a slight annoyance at a small inter academy competition because the judges there aren't even official judges but more enthusiasts or trainers than judges.

... No. It takes a lot more than 3 yellow cards to disqualify someone. 2 will get you a red card, which gives your opponent a point, but unless it is a serious offence that is repeated, you won't be getting a black card.

Alleine
2011-03-20, 07:20 PM
I thought the only way to really be thrown out was for unsportsmanlike conduct, which can include shouting, but normally shouting directed at the director because of a perceived bad call.

unosarta
2011-03-20, 07:22 PM
I thought the only way to really be thrown out was for unsportsmanlike conduct, which can include shouting, but normally shouting directed at the director because of a perceived bad call.

There are a few ways:

Medical black card
Unsportsmanlike conduct (which also includes not shaking your opponent's hand).
Not appearing on the strip within the given amount of time.
Striking your opponent deliberately.

There are probably a few more, I can't remember them all.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 07:25 PM
I never really got the infraction system even though I' did fencing for about 3 years. People didn't really break the rules on a consistent basis.

I did know of three yellows one red, though that's were it ended for me.
Worst I ever saw was 2 yellows.

Ironic coming from a sport that derivated from a highly illegal set of defence techniques. Though we always heard of the story of a boy getting killed or severely injured in the face in a championship because his opponent didn't hear the call and attacked and he was removing his helmet, and the tip went inside and into his face.

unosarta
2011-03-20, 07:28 PM
I never really got the infraction system even though I' did fencing for about 3 years. People didn't really break the rules on a consistent basis.

I did know of three yellows one red, though that's were it ended for me.
Worst I ever saw was 2 yellows.
As far as I know, 2 yellow cards is a red card. This has been confirmed several times happening to me and opponents.


Ironic coming from a sport that derivated from a highly illegal set of defence techniques.
That always tickled me. And just how different they have become, the original purpose and modern fencing.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 07:31 PM
That always tickled me. And just how different they have become, the original purpose and modern fencing.
There have been deaths though:

"Injuries resulting in death or permanent disability rarely occur in modern competitive fencing. Only seven fatalities have been recorded since 1937, and most of these have occurred in highly skilled competitors in elite competition.

All fatalities have been male fencers; five of seven deaths involved ep�e, with foil and sabre one each, and broken blades were responsible for the fatal wound in six of the seven cases. Four fatalities resulted from penetration of the thorax, with one or both lungs punctured and laceration of at least one major blood vessel in each case.

The other three deaths involved neck (one case) and head (two cases) wounds. The two head wounds resulted from broken blades penetrating the mask (13, 16), whereas the mortal neck wound followed a broken blade slipping under the mask and penetrating the trachea and left common carotid artery(5). Two of the thoracic fatalities occurred before plastrons (underarm protectors) were mandatory.

The second incident was, in fact, the impetus for the introduction of the plastron (13). Changes in equipment standards (design, strength, type of materials) generally have followed catastrophic incidents. However, all fatalities subsequent to the introduction of the plastron have occurred to fencers utilizing equipment that met at least the minimum standards set by the F�d�ration Internationale d'Escrime (FIE), the international governing body for the sport. Unfortunately, the force generated by elite athletes seems to be increasing even beyond the accelerating standards for the structural integrity of fencing equipment (4, 7).

In the most recent death, the athlete was using the highest standard equipment available (14).

Several characteristics or mechanisms that may contribute (either singly or in combination) to blade breakage, force of penetration, or both and result in death have been postulated based on the seven incidents discussed here. Most often noted are a right-handed fencer fencing a left-handed fencer, the use of orthopaedic grips, and the propensity to make counterattacks (4, 13). Each of these characteristics was present in a majority of the fatalities (although in different combinations). Further research is needed to determine if modifying one or more of these characteristics would decrease the risk of sustaining a catastrophic injury."

pffh
2011-03-20, 07:50 PM
Shouting will get you thrown out of the nationals, while it may only be a slight annoyance at a small inter academy competition because the judges there aren't even official judges but more enthusiasts or trainers than judges.

Ah that would be it then I've only competed in a national or international tournaments.

Lyesmith
2011-03-20, 08:40 PM
One word: Fléche

It's fast, and if it fails it forces a repositioning, repeat ad nauseum, the only way to stop it is to score before the other one does and before he goes beyond you, and you open yourself in the process, so it's high risk for you and low risk for the one executing it.

Sabre don't fleche. We flunge. Which I avoid doing, because I am 1) not very good (bolestras still confuse me in footwork warmups) 2) too innately amused by the word "flunge".

Also, is it a Sabereur thing to be quite...boistrous and prone to yelling? Or is that just the ones I know? I seem to have developed a slight fencing cackle...

unosarta
2011-03-20, 08:42 PM
Sabre don't fleche. We flunge. Which I avoid doing, because I am 1) not very good (bolestras still confuse me in footwork warmups) 2) too innately amused by the word "flunge".

Also, is it a Sabereur thing to be quite...boistrous and prone to yelling? Or is that just the ones I know? I seem to have developed a slight fencing cackle...

To clarify; in Sabre, one is not allowed to cross the feet while going forward. Perfectly legal to do so backwards, though.

I guess? Most of the Sabreurs I know aren't really that prone to yelling, or any more so than other weapons. Of course, that doesn't count the girls, who yell loudly for apparently no reason. Shrieking is not the most pleasant thing to hear in the middle of a bout.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 08:50 PM
Sabre don't fleche. We flunge. Which I avoid doing, because I am 1) not very good (bolestras still confuse me in footwork warmups) 2) too innately amused by the word "flunge".

Also, is it a Sabereur thing to be quite...boistrous and prone to yelling? Or is that just the ones I know? I seem to have developed a slight fencing cackle...

To elaborate: Sabre also allows slashing, different from foil and epée in that point made with the edge do not count in this modalities while they do in sabre.

This makes it inherently more fun for begginers who immediately assume the role of pirates, while advanced fencers also feel the need to scream when attacking and when attacked.

Also known to cause scurvies and the need to say ARGH!

My memories of Sabre are rather fond, much fun to be had after getting the footwork right. Not the most elegant, but the most active and generally fun.

Lyesmith
2011-03-20, 09:02 PM
To elaborate: Sabre also allows slashing, different from foil and epée in that point made with the edge do not count in this modalities while they do in sabre.

This makes it inherently more fun for begginers who immediately assume the role of pirates, while advanced fencers also feel the need to scream when attacking and when attacked.

Also known to cause scurvies and the need to say ARGH!

My memories of Sabre are rather fond, much fun to be had after getting the footwork right. Not the most elegant, but the most active and generally fun.

Pulling pirate moves occasionally works, but mostly in the "well that was a totally unexpected move right there", and mostly it just sacrifices you a point.

I need to work on my wrist control, I've got a style that favours feints but I still lose from the slight flick-back of the wrist when changing attacking angle. Which gets...frustrating.

Also, reffing Sabre games? NIGHTMARE.

unosarta
2011-03-20, 09:09 PM
Also, reffing Right-Of-Way weapons? NIGHTMARE.

FTFY. Seriously, that damn rule set makes no sense for me. At all.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 09:16 PM
Also, reffing Right-of-Way weapons? NIGHTMARE.

FTFY. Seriously, that damn rule set makes no sense for me. At all.


Taken from: Wikipedia http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fencing)
Foil fencing is conducted using rules of right of way or priority, which determine which fencer's hit will prevail when both fencers touch. The basic principle is that the fencer who begins an offensive action first prevail over his/her opponent's hit, unless the initial action fails. A fencer's action fails when it falls short of his/her opponent, when it misses, or when it is parried. When one fencer's action fails, the other's offensive action gains priority.

Though it is not limited to Foil as the article says.

They make sense in paper. In practice, the chaos after a series of attacks, ripostes and remises, means the call is not going to make anyone happy, except in Epée were simultaneous scoring is possible and there is no need of a call.

Lyesmith
2011-03-20, 09:34 PM
I've always found foil eaiser than Sabre, and in Sabre I generally know what's going on. I did foil for...about a month and a half, all the time itching to try Sabre.

Friggin' lightning-sabre.

Alleine
2011-03-20, 09:40 PM
They make sense in paper. In practice, the chaos after a series of attacks, ripostes and remises, means the call is not going to make anyone happy, except in Epée were simultaneous scoring is possible and there is no need of a call.

I friggin love directing Epee. It's so easy, and when in doubt, doubles! Yaaay! Points for everyone!

I cannot for the life of me direct foil in a manner that is elegant or makes any sense whatsoever. My friend who is really good can call every attack, parry, remise, you name it he saw it. It makes me feel inadequate, heh.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-20, 09:41 PM
I've always found foil eaiser than Sabre, and in Sabre I generally know what's going on. I did foil for...about a month and a half, all the time itching to try Sabre.

Friggin' lightning-sabre.

Foil also gets real fast, real quick at higher tiers, it's less fluid but still extremely fast.

Sabre is constant, foil and Epée are phases of extreme lunging, fléche-ing and riposting with occasional remises which halt and start a movemente phase and then restart. It's like a Turn based RPG made a sport. Sabre is more akin to movie constant fighting and dancing around.


I friggin love directing Epee. It's so easy, and when in doubt, doubles! Yaaay! Points for everyone!

I cannot for the life of me direct foil in a manner that is elegant or makes any sense whatsoever. My friend who is really good can call every attack, parry, remise, you name it he saw it. It makes me feel inadequate, heh.

Who doesn't?

As for Foil and Sabre directing. Sabre is hell. Hectic, chaotic and at the end even dangerous for the one directing depending on the layout, I had to wear protection when directing sabre because the track was very close to the scoring machine. As for foil, unless there is a remise I have little trouble.


The remise is a renewal of an attack in fencing. It is performed when one fencer's attack has failed, either because their opponent has parried or they missed. If the attacker immediately continues their attack in the same line, they have executed a remise. The name also is applied to repetitions of other actions which did not initially succeed (remise of the riposte, for example, is a riposte that initially missed but hit in a continuation). The remise is at the bottom of actions in taking priority.

Lyesmith
2011-03-20, 09:44 PM
Foil also gets real fast, real quick at higher tiers, it's less fluid but still extremely fast.

Sabre is constant, foil and Epée are phases of extreme lunging, fléche-ing and riposting with occasional remises which halt and start a movemente phase and then restart. It's like a Turn based RPG made a sport. Sabre is more akin to movie constant fighting and dancing around.

Sabre is contact speed chess that you play with you whole body. And a sword.
Also, a lot of the time it's both charge, attack is together.

unosarta
2011-03-20, 09:59 PM
Though it is not limited to Foil as the article says.

They make sense in paper. In practice, the chaos after a series of attacks, ripostes and remises, means the call is not going to make anyone happy, except in Epée were simultaneous scoring is possible and there is no need of a call.

Right-of-Way applies to Foil and Sabre, largely why I avoid them like the plague.

Epee ignores that by allowing double touches, as you say.

Cyrion
2011-03-21, 09:23 AM
I was a sabre fencer all through college and for a few years after. One of these days I'm going to get back into it; it was amazingly fun, though I had to take a break because I stopped doing it for the fun and just for the competition. That break's lasted... well, forever now.

I've always found directing sabre fun. Yeah, I'm a masochist. It really does get easier with practice though. I was fencing at the transition of visual vs. electric scoring in sabre. Definitely a fan of electric scoring- lots fewer welts because you don't have to worry about hitting someone so hard that three people see it. Now, you just have to depend on the director getting the sequence right.

grimbold
2011-03-21, 11:53 AM
I did know of three yellows one red, though that's were it ended for me.
Worst I ever saw was 2 yellows.


at my first club me and my best friends there were madmen
at first we ended up giving each other tons of yellows
then we decided to be more lenient and just fence and amazingly we became more sane

leakingpen
2011-03-21, 12:38 PM
I fenced for a couple of years at a local community college. I prefered saber. need to get back into it , actually.

SaintRidley
2011-03-21, 02:08 PM
President of my school's club here. I'll be back after work to actually say something more meaningful.

Seffbasilisk
2011-03-21, 11:41 PM
I fenced in highschool, and for one semester of college.

In highschool, I did foil, but yearned for sabre. My coach told my older sister that I was "too aggressive" for sabre. Something that's not supposed to be possible.

When I was finally allowed to fence sabre, I cleaned up. Senior year, I took first place in Men's sabre for the county. I know from practical experience, that I could wipe the floor with the chick who got first place in Women's sabre for the county.

I missed the Junior Olympic qualifiers because of my ride flaking, a heavy snowfall the night before, and the delay of getting my backup ride moving.

In college I fenced for a semester, but they were doing 'Classical fencing', and tried to mock my 'Sport fencing' until I wiped the floor with a number of them.

It was fun. The instructor's little protégé tried fencing me, and even using foils, I cut apart his stance with my superior footwork.


As for the dreaded 'Newbie is yelling and running at you' attack, all you need to do is step back (they already have the attack), parry wide (your attack now!), and riposte (TOUCH!). Alternatively, you can try to hit them with a preparation (hold out your blade, stiff armed, before they start their charge, and let them run into it.)

Parry wide enough, and their blade won't even touch you. Moving too slowly though, will mean you won't get your point up fast enough to get the touch with that without retracting your arm. Easier if you're doing sabre, and just slash across their midsection.


...I've actually invented a few fencing moves, just from personal experience on the strip. My instructor at the time thought they were jokes, until I successfully used them on him...

Fear mah circle-parry! Attack is mine!

Physics_Rook
2011-03-22, 04:41 AM
I myself am currently a sabrist at the South Coast Fencing Center in southern California. I've been fencing for about six and half years so far. I started with the foil and followed that for about a year or so, and after a while I also took up sabre. The only weapon I haven't tried yet is epee, and that's more because of scheduling conflicts than anything else.

Of course, by going in for both foil and sabre, I had my foil classmates poking fun at me for being a barbaric sabrist, while immediately afterward in the sabre class there were was some teasing about me being a foilist spy in disguise. It was all in good humor, and I even encouraged some of it myself, and in truth the two weapons do attract two very differently minded kinds of people.

I've found foilests to be more chess-player oriented, with an emphasis on outsmarting your opponent tactically. The sabrists on the other favor a more I CRUSH YOU PUNY MORT- proactive approach to acquiring their touches.

I don't really compete at all, unless something happens to practically land in my lap, but that's more because I'm really not comfortable pairing up something I'm doing as a fun hobby with a more competitive attitude. The competitions I've in been were all a great lot of fun, and in no way am I saying I wouldn't compete. You just wouldn't see me compete very often.

I've got some medals and such and those are cool, they represent a lot work not just by me, but by everyone I fenced in those competitions as well. Beyond the medals though, my favorite moments in fencing are all stories from bouts I've lost. You might believe them if I told you, but I certainly couldn't believe some of the people I fenced or the things that I managed to pull at any of those times.

Anyone else interested in learning in what parts of the world all us fencing playgrounders fence in?
As I mentioned at the top of this evergrowing post, I fence at the South Coast Fencing Center in southern California ... in the United States ... on the North American continent... I'm not really sure how broad a spectrum of people this forum reaches honestly.

Cyrion
2011-03-22, 09:13 AM
In college, I fenced for Drew University in New Jersey. When I moved out to California for grad school, I fenced for the Sacramento Fencing Club. I briefly fenced in Wichita, Kansas, after that, but haven't kept it up.

grimbold
2011-03-22, 03:30 PM
I myself am currently a sabrist at the South Coast Fencing Center in southern California. I've been fencing for about six and half years so far. I started with the foil and followed that for about a year or so, and after a while I also took up sabre. The only weapon I haven't tried yet is epee, and that's more because of scheduling conflicts than anything else.

Of course, by going in for both foil and sabre, I had my foil classmates poking fun at me for being a barbaric sabrist, while immediately afterward in the sabre class there were was some teasing about me being a foilist spy in disguise. It was all in good humor, and I even encouraged some of it myself, and in truth the two weapons do attract two very differently minded kinds of people.

I've found foilests to be more chess-player oriented, with an emphasis on outsmarting your opponent tactically. The sabrists on the other favor a more I CRUSH YOU PUNY MORT- proactive approach to acquiring their touches.

I don't really compete at all, unless something happens to practically land in my lap, but that's more because I'm really not comfortable pairing up something I'm doing as a fun hobby with a more competitive attitude. The competitions I've in been were all a great lot of fun, and in no way am I saying I wouldn't compete. You just wouldn't see me compete very often.

I've got some medals and such and those are cool, they represent a lot work not just by me, but by everyone I fenced in those competitions as well. Beyond the medals though, my favorite moments in fencing are all stories from bouts I've lost. You might believe them if I told you, but I certainly couldn't believe some of the people I fenced or the things that I managed to pull at any of those times.

Anyone else interested in learning in what parts of the world all us fencing playgrounders fence in?
As I mentioned at the top of this evergrowing post, I fence at the South Coast Fencing Center in southern California ... in the United States ... on the North American continent... I'm not really sure how broad a spectrum of people this forum reaches honestly.
thank you for being an awesome saber :smallbiggrin:
but i fence in france, however i think i am the only french playgrounder

unosarta
2011-03-22, 03:37 PM
thank you for being an awesome saber :smallbiggrin:
but i fence in france, however i think i am the only french playgrounder

There are actually quite a few French playgrounders. I know for a fact there are at least 3, counting you.

grimbold
2011-03-23, 06:03 AM
There are actually quite a few French playgrounders. I know for a fact there are at least 3, counting you.

who else here is french?

on topic
yay my club is the 2nd best saber club in paris which i guess is pretty awesome

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-03-23, 12:24 PM
Foil and Epee fencer here, going on...um...14 years now? Never really broke into the National scene in the US, although my best is 16th place in the Div III US Nationals, but...well...Div III.

I'm a bit rusty at the moment though, which is a shame. I got out of the habit because the college circuit I fenced in was...um...less than stellar. Two years into it I was the only chance my team stood in the tougher of our two leagues (it was depressing...we'd often go 2-7 or 3-6 to a loss, with me getting our only victories in the team matches), and I was completely undefeated in the less serious of our two leagues. It was somewhat depressing. :smallfrown:

Maelstrom
2011-03-23, 03:34 PM
Living in France qualify? ;)


who else here is french?

on topic
yay my club is the 2nd best saber club in paris which i guess is pretty awesome

Physics_Rook
2011-03-23, 07:50 PM
who else here is french?

on topic
yay my club is the 2nd best saber club in paris which i guess is pretty awesome

Yes that is very awesome. Some of my favorite matches are against the most awesome of fencers. So you've really got it made if you're in a club that hosts some of the best sabrists in France. :smallbiggrin:

One of my favorite touches I've ever scored though has to be against an A rated sabrist. It wasn't luck, but I don't think I could ever pull it again. First point of our match, he advances forward semi-aggressively to try and feel out where my comfort zone for fencing is and what distance he should position his attacks for.

I start making a few retreats on the defensive now, and he gives chase keeping the pressure on me and continuing to push me back. But this is all cool with me though, because I'm hit with an epiphany and attempt the worst possible action.

I freeze and present my sabre to him in a mimicry of point-in-line. He already has priority (right of way) for his attack over my possible counter, and even if he didn't he's also got more than half a foot of height on me and could probably hit before I'm even close to him.

The moment he sees me stop he moves to finish his attack. He's got it made as an easy touch and I'm doomed. He knows, I know it, and everyone watching knows that I'm about to be skewered like a kabob.

But none of that matters. As he lunges towards me, I pull the most comical of counters against him. Just as I'd practiced in my years as a foilest, I drop to the floor in displacement. Using his own height against him, I even managed to displace my head out of the way of his sabre.

The blade snaps clean past where my head should've been had he not been so tall and I so short. He tries to adjust at the last moment, but it's too late. Where once I stood to be wailed upon like a pinata, now the tables have turned as his momentum carries him right onto my outstretched blade.

I know I'm no match for an A rated fencer and I later lost the match, but first blood not only went to me, but it went to me for a move that has no purpose succeeding in sabre. Of course, this wasn't the first time I'd prevailed against an experienced fencer with unconventional tactics, but those stories will have to wait for a different post.

Aidan305
2011-03-23, 10:30 PM
I'm a foilist at heart, though I keep meaning to take up sabre as well.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-23, 11:24 PM
I'm a bit rusty at the moment though, which is a shame. I got out of the habit because the college circuit I fenced in was...um...less than stellar. Two years into it I was the only chance my team stood in the tougher of our two leagues (it was depressing...we'd often go 2-7 or 3-6 to a loss, with me getting our only victories in the team matches), and I was completely undefeated in the less serious of our two leagues. It was somewhat depressing. :smallfrown:

I got a similar problem at the start, even though the club I fenced for had excellent instructors and fencers, none were on my age category, so I got royally screwed as my group wasn't even considered for the club selection. And to even go to the Nationals you needed to go with a team otherwise it was hell for you in many ways.

BiblioRook
2011-03-24, 04:15 AM
I only got to fence for about a year and a half while in college, but while I was there I mostly did Foil (because that's what we all started on) and Sabre (because that's what I felt most confident in). I did try Epee for a short time because that was the direction most f my friends were going, but it wasn't for me.

Weird thing about me and fencing, I can't lunge. Like, at all. It just doesn't feel natural for me and I was never able to truly do it effectively. I also probably had among the worst footwork in the club. I was, however, freakishly good at infighting as well as dodging (yes, while not actually moving, it's something I'm quite proud of).

It's definably something I would love to continue with (heck, I even already bought my own equipment! Not that it's probably rusted into scrap by now after just a year in storage...)
They actually do offer it at the community college I'm at now... but I'm reluctant to check them out. It was full this quarter anyways.


As I mentioned at the top of this evergrowing post, I fence at the South Coast Fencing Center in southern California ... in the United States ... on the North American continent... I'm not really sure how broad a spectrum of people this forum reaches honestly.

San Diego, so close but so far (but kinda freaky considering the names).

And as for the 'Fencing is like Chess' thing, that's actually something that my instructor would insist on drilling into our heads as for how to think of the sport.


Two things;
1) Has anyone played 'Kings and Queens'?
2) Does anyone give any of you slack or still try to claim that 'fencing isn't a real sport'? Man I ran into that alot, I don't even really know how they can really come to that conclusion...

paladinlady
2011-03-24, 08:30 AM
Foil is for boys, Epeé is for men, Sabre is for animals.[/I]

Foil is for girls too...I enjoyed fencing for a few years. Fencing is like a frantic choreographed dance. Very elegant...

grimbold
2011-03-24, 12:15 PM
Yes that is very awesome. Some of my favorite matches are against the most awesome of fencers. So you've really got it made if you're in a club that hosts some of the best sabrists in France. :smallbiggrin:

One of my favorite touches I've ever scored though has to be against an A rated sabrist. It wasn't luck, but I don't think I could ever pull it again. First point of our match, he advances forward semi-aggressively to try and feel out where my comfort zone for fencing is and what distance he should position his attacks for.

I start making a few retreats on the defensive now, and he gives chase keeping the pressure on me and continuing to push me back. But this is all cool with me though, because I'm hit with an epiphany and attempt the worst possible action.

I freeze and present my sabre to him in a mimicry of point-in-line. He already has priority (right of way) for his attack over my possible counter, and even if he didn't he's also got more than half a foot of height on me and could probably hit before I'm even close to him.

The moment he sees me stop he moves to finish his attack. He's got it made as an easy touch and I'm doomed. He knows, I know it, and everyone watching knows that I'm about to be skewered like a kabob.

But none of that matters. As he lunges towards me, I pull the most comical of counters against him. Just as I'd practiced in my years as a foilest, I drop to the floor in displacement. Using his own height against him, I even managed to displace my head out of the way of his sabre.

The blade snaps clean past where my head should've been had he not been so tall and I so short. He tries to adjust at the last moment, but it's too late. Where once I stood to be wailed upon like a pinata, now the tables have turned as his momentum carries him right onto my outstretched blade.

I know I'm no match for an A rated fencer and I later lost the match, but first blood not only went to me, but it went to me for a move that has no purpose succeeding in sabre. Of course, this wasn't the first time I'd prevailed against an experienced fencer with unconventional tactics, but those stories will have to wait for a different post.

its amazing how we remember these touches isnt it?
for example i remember the first time i beat my first coach in a bout
admittedly he has had major reconstructive knee surgery and is now like 55ish but come on at one point he was an olympian!

does anybody else have any memorable touches?

Physics_Rook
2011-03-25, 02:08 AM
its amazing how we remember these touches isnt it?
for example i remember the first time i beat my first coach in a bout
admittedly he has had major reconstructive knee surgery and is now like 55ish but come on at one point he was an olympian!

does anybody else have any memorable touches?

Rightly awesome of you! If you get a chance and the memory isn't too fuzzy I think I speak for everyone when I say we'd love to hear it! It's always a really cool milestone when you can match up to the person who taught you.

One of the recurring themes I've found in fencing (especially among epee), are the old and elderly gents sweeping the floor clean with their younger more athletic counterparts. Time and time again it seems that I've seen our senior citizens completely out maneuver young hotshot opponents.



San Diego, so close but so far (but kinda freaky considering the names).

And as for the 'Fencing is like Chess' thing, that's actually something that my instructor would insist on drilling into our heads as for how to think of the sport.


I can't say I've ever fenced in San Diego, but if you've been fencing at competitions there for more than a year I can guarantee that you've fenced with or met a fencer that I know. The SCFC fencers have traveled pretty far abroad for competitions around the US, and I know that they've been to a few in San Diego. It's like some weird real life seven degrees of Kevin Bacon.

As for the chess thing, I've actually found it more often compared to tennis. Probably 'cause of being a 1v1 athletic tactics sport. Of course I'm kinda of glad that fencing isn't too much like chess. If it was we'd become like chess boxing, and that makes me shudder.


Two things;
1) Has anyone played 'Kings and Queens'?
2) Does anyone give any of you slack or still try to claim that 'fencing isn't a real sport'? Man I ran into that alot, I don't even really know how they can really come to that conclusion...

I can't say I've ever heard of "Kings and Queens" before. Of course if this is the setup to a bad pun I'll make sure you pay for it (anybody's refrigerator running?). :smalltongue:

As for the second, I actually get something on the other extreme. People who think that fencing means being the equivalent of a mixed-martial artist with a super blackbelt. I still have trouble overcoming (http://xkcd.com/251/)household appliances, let alone leaping thirty feet to land on a single stalk of bamboo.


I'm a foilist at heart, though I keep meaning to take up sabre as well.

No worries, if you take up sabre for long enough you'll net a collection of your opponents' hearts. It the next best thing!


Foil is for girls too...I enjoyed fencing for a few years. Fencing is like a frantic choreographed dance. Very elegant...

If foil is a frantic choreographed dance, then does that make sabre slapstick?:smallbiggrin:

BiblioRook
2011-03-25, 02:17 AM
I can't say I've ever fenced in San Diego, but if you've been fencing at competitions there for more than a year I can guarantee that you've fenced with or met a fencer that I know. The SCFC fencers have traveled pretty far abroad for competitions around the US, and I know that they've been to a few in San Diego. It's like some weird real life seven degrees of Kevin Bacon.

As for the chess thing, I've actually found it more often compared to tennis. Probably 'cause of being a 1v1 athletic tactics sport. Of course I'm kinda of glad that fencing isn't too much like chess. If it was we'd become like chess boxing, and that makes me shudder.

I can't say I've ever heard of "Kings and Queens" before. Of course if this is the setup to a bad pun I'll make sure you pay for it (anybody's refrigerator running?). :smalltongue:

Oh, I would be very surprised indeed if you fenced anyone I know. I only just now live here, but when I fenced it was when I was going to school in Ohio. XD

Usually the chess comparison is in regards to the fact that you often have to think five moves ahead of your opponent.

And as for 'Kings and Queens', it's an actual game my club would play.
Basically you would divide everyone present into two groups and each group picks someone to be King. What happens next is one big battle between the two groups. When you 'die' (get a point scored on you) you ether leave the floor or simply kneel depending on the version being played. One team wins when the opposing King is killed.
It was always very popular among my club.

TechnoScrabble
2011-03-25, 02:26 AM
I just got back from a fencing tournament (yay I'm 9th best in paris in the under 16 category) and was thinking, wouldn't it be cool to see if my fellow playgrounders fence?
so my question is
does anybody else in the playground fence?

9th best, you say?
I shall visit Paris, hunt you down, and challenge you to a duel!

Yeah, I fence, but I don't enter tournaments often due to a lack of time.
That, and you're not allowed to do backflips onto the fence and kick your opponent's hand to deflect their sword. :smallfrown:

And I've always been more of a saber or falchion man. Rapiers and foils bend too much.

Physics_Rook
2011-03-25, 02:58 AM
Oh, I would be very surprised indeed if you fenced anyone I know. I only just now live here, but when I fenced it was when I was going to school in Ohio. XD

Usually the chess comparison is in regards to the fact that you often have to think five moves ahead of your opponent.

And as for 'Kings and Queens', it's an actual game my club would play.
Basically you would divide everyone present into two groups and each group picks someone to be King. What happens next is one big battle between the two groups. When you 'die' (get a point scored on you) you ether leave the floor or simply kneel depending on the version being played. One team wins when the opposing King is killed.
It was always very popular among my club.

Yeah I have played it before, it was a while back though. I remember each side would try and psych out and mislead the others. It was a lot of fun, and we've done similar things like pseudo free for all fencing, and even an alternate team fencing game where everybody lines up facing the other team and you can fence everyone on the other side at once.

The five moves ahead part of the chess comparison is probably the most applicable to foil and epee. In sabre I've seen it more often than not come to timing, where real life action economy becomes the biggest issue. Boyd's theory on the command cycle is really what action economy in fencing is all about, but that's probably an entire thread in and of itself.

The best I've seen the chess metaphor played out is when an older fencer fences a younger one. The young'ins would never stand a chance because the older guys can simply make up for what they lack in straight up athleticism with tactics and technique. It's not a perfect substitute because there's only so far you can go with purely tactics, but it's still cool to see that fencing's a sport where even if you're pushing seventy the kids'll still be wary of ya.

A good rule of thumb, the older the fencer the more devious and cunning they are. It's like meeting an old adventurer, they don't get to that age without learning a few tricks. :smallsmile:

BiblioRook
2011-03-25, 03:38 AM
And I've always been more of a saber or falchion man. Rapiers and foils bend too much.

Kinda funny considering the context

celtois
2011-03-25, 08:42 AM
Okay I'm going to feel a bit like I'm just bragging for doing this but meh here goes.

So far I've been fencing for round about seven years. Though I peaked about two years ago, at 5th in the country in I believe it was U15, and in the top 20 for U17. Went to a bunch of the bigger tournament that year. I've also consistently hung around the top 1-5 position within my province depending on the year.

That was of course until I got the stomach flu at western Canadian championships and puked on strip. >.< things really just went downhill from there.

I was quite an avid foilist and I don't fancy myself as half bad at it. Though I haven't competed in about a year and a half since I developed tendinitis in my hand. :smallfrown:

grimbold
2011-03-25, 11:34 AM
Okay I'm going to feel a bit like I'm just bragging for doing this but meh here goes.

So far I've been fencing for round about seven years. Though I peaked about two years ago, at 5th in the country in I believe it was U15, and in the top 20 for U17. Went to a bunch of the bigger tournament that year. I've also consistently hung around the top 1-5 position within my province depending on the year.

That was of course until I got the stomach flu at western Canadian championships and puked on strip. >.< things really just went downhill from there.

I was quite an avid foilist and I don't fancy myself as half bad at it. Though I haven't competed in about a year and a half since I developed tendinitis in my hand. :smallfrown:

im glad you made it that far, thats really impressive in my bouts against some of the top people in france i am screaming for joy if i score even one point

however your fall
that sucks i feel really bad for you

celtois
2011-03-25, 04:13 PM
Eh, I can still fence. My hand wasn't as badly screwed up as another friend of mine who can no longer fence.

I just train for fun now and don't really compete.


Thank you. For a while there I was doing quite well indeed. It is something I'm very proud of. :smallbiggrin:

Physics_Rook
2011-03-25, 04:55 PM
Eh, I can still fence. My hand wasn't as badly screwed up as another friend of mine who can no longer fence.

I just train for fun now and don't really compete.


Thank you. For a while there I was doing quite well indeed. It is something I'm very proud of. :smallbiggrin:

My hat is off to you sir.

Being able to count yourself among some of the best is a really cool thing to be able to say, and it certainly sounds like you and your friend have some cool stories.

I always felt that fencing itself is made up of three great parts. There's hanging out with other fencers having a lot of fun with some good people. Then the fencing itself, where you get the chance to show off all the things you've learned. And last though never least, the awesome stories you get to tell to everyone afterward.

I hope tendinitis doesn't hit you too hard, and that you and your friend feel better soon. It's a bummer you're friend's out of fencing, but it sounds like when he was in the party he partied hard, which is awesome when the party is metaphor for fencing.

The slices of cake would probably represent touches or something, and of course the other party goers would all be there to steal your cake from you ... I don't think I'm ever going to party the same now. :smallcool:

grimbold
2011-03-25, 06:22 PM
asides from the confusing metaphor at the end i completely agree with you
for me hanging out with cool people is one of the greatest things about fencing

Cyrion
2011-03-25, 10:54 PM
My most memorable points are, of course, ones I've lost. One in particular when I was on the verge of improving my rating and it came down to a single point in my last bout; if I won the point I placed high enough to improve my rating, if I lost the point I didn't. Naturally, it was the director's fault for getting the point wrong- he missed whose beat attack it was. :smallwink:

That was when I really started taking seriously a point my coach liked to make- if you don't like the directing, just make sure there's only one light.

My most memorable victories are whole bouts. My favorites were consecutive wins when I had my E rating and faced to guys with their B's. I trounced them 5-1 and 5-2. Walking on cloud nine that day!

pffh
2011-03-25, 11:45 PM
My most memorable victories are whole bouts. My favorites were consecutive wins when I had my E rating and faced to guys with their B's. I trounced them 5-1 and 5-2. Walking on cloud nine that day!

This reminds me of a match one of my old mates was in. Basically it was for the gold and he was 14-6 down. Just before they start what we assumed was the last point he turns to us and says "What don't you believe in me?" grins and puts on his mask.

He beat the guy 15-14.

grimbold
2011-03-26, 03:25 AM
This reminds me of a match one of my old mates was in. Basically it was for the gold and he was 14-6 down. Just before they start what we assumed was the last point he turns to us and says "What don't you believe in me?" grins and puts on his mask.

He beat the guy 15-14.

thats the best kind of win
sometimes its fun just to do that in bluff so that at the end you look awesome

Lyesmith
2011-03-27, 02:25 PM
Ah, I love last-point recoveries. I've managed to make one or two.

Turning a 4-0 into a 4-4 against our club's best Sabre guy was a bit of an ego boost, even if I did lose the last point. I was proper chuffed.

Also, I've been looking at fencing t-shirts and the like, because I love to waste my time. I think "Give blood. Fence Sabre" is a new favourite.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-27, 02:33 PM
Ah, I love last-point recoveries. I've managed to make one or two.

Turning a 4-0 into a 4-4 against our club's best Sabre guy was a bit of an ego boost, even if I did lose the last point. I was proper chuffed.

Also, I've been looking at fencing t-shirts and the like, because I love to waste my time. I think "Give blood. Fence Sabre" is a new favourite.

http://rlv.zcache.com/human_evolution_fencing_t_shirt-p2355970536400318024xmd_400.jpg
http://www.fencingworkout.com/images/t-shirt1.jpg
http://www.yayfencing.com/images/parrybig.jpg
http://www.shagtees.com/images/thumbs/curses_th.png
http://www.wordans.com/wordansfiles/images/2010/5/11/32598/32598_340.jpg?1273634750

I would actually like to get the "parry like it's 1699" one stamped.

Lyesmith
2011-03-27, 02:36 PM
http://rlv.zcache.com/human_evolution_fencing_t_shirt-p2355970536400318024xmd_400.jpg
http://www.fencingworkout.com/images/t-shirt1.jpg
http://www.yayfencing.com/images/parrybig.jpg
http://www.shagtees.com/images/thumbs/curses_th.png
http://www.wordans.com/wordansfiles/images/2010/5/11/32598/32598_340.jpg?1273634750

I would actually like to get the "parry like it's 1699" one stamped.

My house come July is all fencers. Two foils, an epee, a sabre, and one of the armourers. This sort of stuff is going to be totally rife.

The love a fencer leaves bruises on the soul. And chest. And arms. And legs.
It's only called "Sabre" because "Assault with a deadly weapon" won't fit on the trophy.

Brother Oni
2011-03-27, 03:04 PM
And as for the 'Fencing is like Chess' thing, that's actually something that my instructor would insist on drilling into our heads as for how to think of the sport.


I guess fencing is a bit too far out of my experience then - you generally don't have time to think in what I'm used to, hence all the drilling so that attacks require virtually no conscious thought.

I was taught that 'if you have time to think, it's too late' and from what I've seen of fencing matches, it looks too quick to have time for in-depth tactical thought, but I'll bow to your greater experience.



2) Does anyone give any of you slack or still try to claim that 'fencing isn't a real sport'? Man I ran into that alot, I don't even really know how they can really come to that conclusion...

I don't either, since simply replacing the tip or sharpening the edge turns your foil/epee/sabre into a real weapon.

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-27, 03:09 PM
I don't either, since simply replacing the tip or sharpening the edge turns your foil/epee/sabre into a real weapon.
Not even necessary, normal equipment has killed people in a match before.

Lyesmith
2011-03-27, 03:14 PM
Not even necessary, normal equipment has killed people in a match before.

But very, very rarely. It'd be eaiser to kill a guy with a cricket bat than a standard fencing sword. Fencing has had, what, nine fatalities since 1936?

araveugnitsuga
2011-03-27, 03:23 PM
But very, very rarely. It'd be eaiser to kill a guy with a cricket bat than a standard fencing sword. Fencing has had, what, nine fatalities since 1936?

Actually, if you manage to break the tip you already have a very deadly, accurate and clean weapon, that can actually assure you a kill if you decide to go to the neck, all the while, normal blunt defences like placing your arms to prevent impact (what happens when you use sports equipment for murder, and normally prevents the first impact giving the other combatant an advantage) won't work because it's easy to retract and go again, all in a refined fluid fashion.

You can kill better and with more finesse with a fencing weapon.

Lyesmith
2011-03-27, 03:50 PM
Actually, if you manage to break the tip you already have a very deadly, accurate and clean weapon, that can actually assure you a kill if you decide to go to the neck, all the while, normal blunt defences like placing your arms to prevent impact (what happens when you use sports equipment for murder, and normally prevents the first impact giving the other combatant an advantage) won't work because it's easy to retract and go again, all in a refined fluid fashion.

You can kill better and with more finesse with a fencing weapon.

I meant a non-broken one, broken would be very obviously easy to kill with. We're handling swords, after all.

Physics_Rook
2011-03-27, 07:30 PM
I meant a non-broken one, broken would be very obviously easy to kill with. We're handling swords, after all.

Agreed.

Even with the proper protection, a broken sword can still range from harmless to extremely dangerous. I've had sabres and foils break on me before without even realizing it (they just flexed and broke really easily). I've also heard stories of people who've had their masks fail against broken swords.

To be honest though, I'm more worried about the swords when I'm not fencing then when I am. I've seen too many close calls with a fencer not paying attention to where his weapon is and just walking right past someone who doesn't have a mask on.

Even when the swords aren't made to hurt people we still have to be careful with them.

pffh
2011-03-28, 05:28 AM
Unbroken sword can be plenty dangerous. A clean hit with a saber on unprotected skin can give you pretty large gash as a friend of mine found out after forgetting his pants and trying to fence in shorts one practice.

Cyrion
2011-03-28, 09:35 AM
I've got a couple of buttons squirreled away, one that says "I fence, therefore I am" and the other "I enjoy the pleasures of the fleche."

There have been relatively few fatalities in the sport because a) you're wearing armor (of a sort) and b) people aren't really trying to kill you. Even an unbroken sabre is potentially lethal if you intend to use it that way because it moves fast enough to open skin and break bones, and it's small enough for eyes if you've got the point control.

grimbold
2011-03-28, 10:52 AM
I've got a couple of buttons squirreled away, one that says "I fence, therefore I am" and the other "I enjoy the pleasures of the fleche."


HUZZAH fencing puns!

BiblioRook
2011-03-28, 11:20 PM
My old teacher loves shirts like that, her favorite was of a snake with a sword that said 'Sabre Rattler'

Seffbasilisk
2011-03-29, 12:24 AM
With my sabre, I've cut other sabres in half. I've drawn blood through full gear, and I once lost a match, because my coach was reffing, and my opponent screamed every time I hit him.

So he gave him the points. Even though he didn't score a single touch on me.

So I made him earn every scream.

grimbold
2011-03-29, 10:36 AM
With my sabre, I've cut other sabres in half. I've drawn blood through full gear, and I once lost a match, because my coach was reffing, and my opponent screamed every time I hit him.

So he gave him the points. Even though he didn't score a single touch on me.

So I made him earn every scream.

dude you need to tone it down
i used to hit hard then i made a girl cry
so yeah

pffh
2011-03-29, 12:53 PM
Also those hard hits often have a lot more build up and are more easy to dodge then the light fast ones. In fact I've noticed a lot of people that used to hit hard suddenly did a lot better when they managed to break that habit.

grimbold
2011-03-29, 02:22 PM
Also those hard hits often have a lot more build up and are more easy to dodge then the light fast ones. In fact I've noticed a lot of people that used to hit hard suddenly did a lot better when they managed to break that habit.

agreed
its for two reasons
1. to hit hard you pull your wrist back opening up target
2. the build up gives you plenty of time to see them coming and parry

Cyrion
2011-03-30, 09:14 AM
Electric scoring was one of the best things to happen to sabre scoring! Prior to that, you had to make sure that your hits were obvious touches, so you tended to hit harder. Now, you've got room for much more subtle, lighter and faster touches. It's another step away from its classical origins, but I think it's all-around better for the sport.

grimbold
2011-03-30, 10:00 AM
Electric scoring was one of the best things to happen to sabre scoring! Prior to that, you had to make sure that your hits were obvious touches, so you tended to hit harder. Now, you've got room for much more subtle, lighter and faster touches. It's another step away from its classical origins, but I think it's all-around better for the sport.
agreed, now you just have to hope that the light decides to go off

Dilvish
2011-03-30, 03:38 PM
I have been and avid fencer for 4 years and I am 15 now. I don't go into tournaments because I don't have have the electric equipment needed for fencing saber. I fence at weslyan college (even though I don't go to college) in Virginia beach V.A.

Is Mr. Kim still the fencing master? I fenced at weslyan about 10 years ago. Yes, it really was that long ago. Still wear my TFC jacket at times.

dilvish
Michael Lyons

grimbold
2011-03-31, 12:16 PM
Not even necessary, normal equipment has killed people in a match before.

this reminds me of the time i thought i killed my friend in a bout

i hit him with a hard point attack and drew blood (for like the second time in 3 years in my 7 years i have done it 4 times),
his arm snapped down onto my blade almost immediately and to me it looked like a had run him through because i saw blood blossoming around my blade that had apparently gone through him
he screams out in pain
everyone rushes over
then he lefts up his arm and goes
GOTCHYA
he did need a bandaid though

Physics_Rook
2011-04-02, 01:15 AM
this reminds me of the time i thought i killed my friend in a bout

i hit him with a hard point attack and drew blood (for like the second time in 3 years in my 7 years i have done it 4 times),
his arm snapped down onto my blade almost immediately and to me it looked like a had run him through because i saw blood blossoming around my blade that had apparently gone through him
he screams out in pain
everyone rushes over
then he lefts up his arm and goes
GOTCHYA
he did need a bandaid though

That is without a doubt the best and worst gotcha that I've ever heard. :smallbiggrin:

I got hit across my left hand (I'm a righty) just a couple weeks ago in a sabre match. It freaked out a couple of the others since I couldn't move the fingers in my hand for a few minutes afterward, but in the end it just resulted in a somewhat less than spectacular bruise. It didn't even last a week!:smallsmile:

Really, with all this protective equipment, how 'm I supposed to get any cool scars (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodScarsEvilScars) (though not disfiguring (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunishedWithUgly)) to impress the ladies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllGirlsWantBadBoys)?:smalltongue:

grimbold
2011-04-02, 04:30 AM
with my friends at my old club we would actually intentionally beat each other on the arms when the master wasnt looking so that the next day we could walk through school in heavy metal shirts and look all scary
(yeah we're all male)

Aedilred
2011-04-02, 07:35 AM
I've just started fencing in London by way of a beginners' class. Sabres only (at this stage) which is fine by me.

I'm enjoying it so far; I'll have to see if I can continue once this course finishes.

pffh
2011-04-02, 02:19 PM
That is without a doubt the best and worst gotcha that I've ever heard. :smallbiggrin:

I got hit across my left hand (I'm a righty) just a couple weeks ago in a sabre match. It freaked out a couple of the others since I couldn't move the fingers in my hand for a few minutes afterward, but in the end it just resulted in a somewhat less than spectacular bruise. It didn't even last a week!:smallsmile:

Really, with all this protective equipment, how 'm I supposed to get any cool scars (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodScarsEvilScars) (though not disfiguring (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunishedWithUgly)) to impress the ladies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllGirlsWantBadBoys)?:smalltongue:

Quite easy do what one of my trainers did. He was straightening a blade with his hands when it snapped and broke slicing up his hand and chin leaving a pretty badass scar.

BiblioRook
2011-04-02, 02:42 PM
Really, with all this protective equipment, how 'm I supposed to get any cool scars (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GoodScarsEvilScars) (though not disfiguring (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PunishedWithUgly)) to impress the ladies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllGirlsWantBadBoys)?:smalltongue:

Well, you could always dress it up (http://www.pointedcomments.com/images/skull.jpg) a bit

grimbold
2011-04-02, 03:22 PM
Well, you could always dress it up (http://www.pointedcomments.com/images/skull.jpg) a bit

this reminds me
you technically can die your suit any one pastel color
i want a purple suit
that would be awesome

BiblioRook
2011-04-02, 09:45 PM
Reminds me how the club lamés were always the ugliest color possible

You know, so people wouldn't steal them.

Personally I just think that just started putting the idea of stealing ugly lamés into people's heads.


On the topic of non-white suits though, my club president had a baby blue suit. But that wasn't by choice... laundry mishap. :smallbiggrin:

araveugnitsuga
2011-04-03, 01:21 AM
this reminds me
you technically can die your suit any one pastel color
i want a purple suit
that would be awesome

Actually I believe its just full colours, not necesarilly pastel, but I may be wrong.
I've used mostly white and occasionally grey.

grimbold
2011-04-03, 01:59 AM
what if you had a black suit and acted like a goth fencing god?

araveugnitsuga
2011-04-04, 12:48 AM
On unrelated news.
Watched a fencing "championship" today, quite nice seeing the newbies at the club fail at proper footwork and tripping -mid round-.

And also, called shots, to the groin area. Apparently young fencers don't actually think about scoring, but causing maximum damage to the opponent, and since there apparently is a prejudice against the conch (or whatever is the proper word for it in English), I saw at least four ten-year olds exit a match midway with a hand over their groin. Also, they somehow managed to break an Épée by virtue of the maximum damage maxim. Heck, at about half of the even. even female fencers began trying it. It got to the point that parents had to step in, stop the match and get their kid to wear the freaking conch, which for some reason they treat like the plague.

All in all it was pretty funny, and totally worth it.

pffh
2011-04-04, 06:04 AM
Wait you get groin protection? I want groin protection and I've only been hit there twice. :smallfurious:

101jir
2011-04-04, 08:33 AM
On unrelated news.
Watched a fencing "championship" today, quite nice seeing the newbies at the club fail at proper footwork and tripping -mid round-.

And also, called shots, to the groin area. Apparently young fencers don't actually think about scoring, but causing maximum damage to the opponent, and since there apparently is a prejudice against the conch (or whatever is the proper word for it in English), I saw at least four ten-year olds exit a match midway with a hand over their groin. Also, they somehow managed to break an Épée by virtue of the maximum damage maxim. Heck, at about half of the even. even female fencers began trying it. It got to the point that parents had to step in, stop the match and get their kid to wear the freaking conch, which for some reason they treat like the plague.

All in all it was pretty funny, and totally worth it.

Once at the Renassance Festival, I did a version of fencing. They had balloons to pop on top of the helmet, rather than the actual equipment. It took a while for us to realize that the only way to pop the balloons was to slash with the tip of the (foil?). Not overly realistic, but we moved really fast, at least compared to the others we watched. Everyone else was pretty much slash and block.

I have always wanted to do fencing, but there are no fencing clubs that I am aware of in central MN. One thing that does bother me about watching some of that stuff, is you can only move forward and backward. Realistic from a medival battle perspective, but not so much from a dual perspective. That does kind of bother me, since my sister and I like to circle each other and then try to fake out and come in from behind.

Erloas
2011-04-04, 10:18 AM
I have always wanted to do fencing, but there are no fencing clubs that I am aware of in central MN. One thing that does bother me about watching some of that stuff, is you can only move forward and backward. Realistic from a medival battle perspective, but not so much from a dual perspective. That does kind of bother me, since my sister and I like to circle each other and then try to fake out and come in from behind.
You might check out the SCA then. There are groups almost everywhere. While hard suit combat is much more common there is a decent population of rapier fighters too. I don't do rapier or fencing, but from my general understanding they use all the same weapons and equipment but rapier is much more free form and not as linear as the "Olympic" style of fencing that most places teach.

grimbold
2011-04-04, 12:37 PM
On unrelated news.
Watched a fencing "championship" today, quite nice seeing the newbies at the club fail at proper footwork and tripping -mid round-.

And also, called shots, to the groin area. Apparently young fencers don't actually think about scoring, but causing maximum damage to the opponent, and since there apparently is a prejudice against the conch (or whatever is the proper word for it in English), I saw at least four ten-year olds exit a match midway with a hand over their groin. Also, they somehow managed to break an Épée by virtue of the maximum damage maxim. Heck, at about half of the even. even female fencers began trying it. It got to the point that parents had to step in, stop the match and get their kid to wear the freaking conch, which for some reason they treat like the plague.

All in all it was pretty funny, and totally worth it.

1. the word i believe you are looking for is 'cup'
2. How did they break an épée? I've seen ONE épée break in 8 years of fencing and that one was 40 years old!
3. maximum damage, yeah 10 year olds do that, typically when i am teaching those aggressive 10 year olds i just hit them harder so that they realise they are being jerks. (its what my coach did)
4. how did they break an épée?
5. a little ones and their sucky footwork how wonderful
6. HOW DID A 10 YEAR OLD BREAK AN EPEE!!!

TheThan
2011-04-04, 06:10 PM
So interesting question:

Do “they” teach any sword and dagger styles? Or does everyone pretty much much stick to sport fencing?

unosarta
2011-04-04, 06:20 PM
So interesting question:

Do “they” teach any sword and dagger styles? Or does everyone pretty much much stick to sport fencing?

Broadsword fencing is actually pretty common, although that usually uses a buckler instead of a parrying dagger. However, at my fencing club, there are actually quite a few guys who come down on Saturdays who do it, and a few of them also knife fight using plastic knives. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to use a knife with a broadsword, or even with an actual weapon.

Erloas
2011-04-04, 06:26 PM
So interesting question:

Do “they” teach any sword and dagger styles? Or does everyone pretty much much stick to sport fencing?

Well different areas tend to have their own way of doing things. So one way might be much more common in some parts of the country then others, but I do know that quite a few of the rapier fighters I've seen have used off-hand parrying daggers. I know there are a couple other things they use in the off-hand but I don't know what all they use.

araveugnitsuga
2011-04-04, 07:01 PM
1. the word i believe you are looking for is 'cup'
2. How did they break an épée? I've seen ONE épée break in 8 years of fencing and that one was 40 years old!
3. maximum damage, yeah 10 year olds do that, typically when i am teaching those aggressive 10 year olds i just hit them harder so that they realise they are being jerks. (its what my coach did)
4. how did they break an épée?
5. a little ones and their sucky footwork how wonderful
6. HOW DID A 10 YEAR OLD BREAK AN EPEE!!!

Younger members get the fairly inexpensive and old equipment, some of it was bought defective, some it is really old, not 40 years old, but at least 15 year old, now this equipment is constantly battered by 10 year olds, and rarely get taken care of, it's essentially equipment which is no longer fit for championships, yet not yet lethal to the wielder. It's not that rare for it to break, the counterpoint is that they normally get the better protection gear since well...

101jir
2011-04-04, 08:29 PM
You might check out the SCA then. There are groups almost everywhere. While hard suit combat is much more common there is a decent population of rapier fighters too. I don't do rapier or fencing, but from my general understanding they use all the same weapons and equipment but rapier is much more free form and not as linear as the "Olympic" style of fencing that most places teach.

THX, I think I found a good one. Maybe I will join in college.

grimbold
2011-04-05, 10:46 AM
Younger members get the fairly inexpensive and old equipment, some of it was bought defective, some it is really old, not 40 years old, but at least 15 year old, now this equipment is constantly battered by 10 year olds, and rarely get taken care of, it's essentially equipment which is no longer fit for championships, yet not yet lethal to the wielder. It's not that rare for it to break, the counterpoint is that they normally get the better protection gear since well...

ahh
figures

on an unrelated note:
if you are looking to join a fencing club i would recommend that you make sure that their course doesn't have you using the blades within the first 2 months or so of your training. In my experience it is essential that training be taken slowly, trust me, you'll be glad after the fact.

pffh
2011-04-05, 12:40 PM
ahh
figures

on an unrelated note:
if you are looking to join a fencing club i would recommend that you make sure that their course doesn't have you using the blades within the first 2 months or so of your training. In my experience it is essential that training be taken slowly, trust me, you'll be glad after the fact.

What no. Find one that lets you try fighting during your first practice. I would have been bored to death and never started fencing if I hadn't been given the chance to beat on my friend with a sword from the get go and as long the trainer watches and helps you fix your stance and other stuff from the start you'll be fine, a little sore* but fine.

*Little sore depends on what kind of fencing you do. Little sore for a saber fencer is half dead for foil or épée. :smallbiggrin:

grimbold
2011-04-06, 07:04 AM
What no. Find one that lets you try fighting during your first practice. I would have been bored to death and never started fencing if I hadn't been given the chance to beat on my friend with a sword from the get go and as long the trainer watches and helps you fix your stance and other stuff from the start you'll be fine, a little sore* but fine.

*Little sore depends on what kind of fencing you do. Little sore for a saber fencer is half dead for foil or épée. :smallbiggrin:

Well for me at least that was the point
The people who really want it make it

however engaging lessons are definitely a good thing

another thing to check is how much equipment the club has,
make sure they have electric stuff or else you will be fighting electric for the first time at a tourney which isnt fun. (happened to me)

Physics_Rook
2011-04-06, 04:24 PM
Both grimbold and pffh have good points. :smallsmile:

It's important to learn the basics and keep practicing them even after you start fencing more skilled opponents. It's also important to have something in the sport that actually interests you.

Refining your basic technique is something you'll always be doing, because it's just that important. Even Olympic level fencers train on the most basic of footwork before their bouts/matches. It's always good advice to make sure the foundation of your top tier fencing skills is stable and sound.

At the sme time it's also important to start fencing because it's something that you enjoy. I've met many highly rated fencers who started training with a blade on their first day. They've proven to be just as challenging and skilled opponents as any other fencer I've met.

It's good to make your basic footwork and handwork solid and reliable, but it's also good to acquire live bouting experience with other fencers. Much like the best run RPG campaigns, there's no single "right" way you need to do things.

The advice I'd offer would be to find a fencing club with a good and friendly teacher. Talk to the head coach about the sort of classes they offer, what kinds of stuff they really focus on at each level, and how competitive the students in the class are. These sorts of questions will give you a good idea of what to expect from the coach. :smallsmile:

Also, electric equipment is awesome. It's so much easier to tell who scored what point.:smallcool:

101jir
2011-04-07, 08:24 AM
Both grimbold and pffh have good points. :smallsmile:

It's important to learn the basics and keep practicing them even after you start fencing more skilled opponents. It's also important to have something in the sport that actually interests you.

Refining your basic technique is something you'll always be doing, because it's just that important. Even Olympic level fencers train on the most basic of footwork before their bouts/matches. It's always good advice to make sure the foundation of your top tier fencing skills is stable and sound.

At the sme time it's also important to start fencing because it's something that you enjoy. I've met many highly rated fencers who started training with a blade on their first day. They've proven to be just as challenging and skilled opponents as any other fencer I've met.

It's good to make your basic footwork and handwork solid and reliable, but it's also good to acquire live bouting experience with other fencers. Much like the best run RPG campaigns, there's no single "right" way you need to do things.

The advice I'd offer would be to find a fencing club with a good and friendly teacher. Talk to the head coach about the sort of classes they offer, what kinds of stuff they really focus on at each level, and how competitive the students in the class are. These sorts of questions will give you a good idea of what to expect from the coach. :smallsmile:

Also, electric equipment is awesome. It's so much easier to tell who scored what point.:smallcool:

Except that it forces a linear fight:smallfrown:. Just my opinion.

Lyesmith
2011-04-07, 09:53 AM
I probably wouldn't have bothered sticking with fencing if I'd not got to pick up a sword on day one. It's the entire point of the sport! You don't play football without a football, after all.

I'm very glad I did, and the fencing club are pretty much my top group of freinds, and I'm mortified at the thought of not knowing them. Consider me firmly in the "No swordplay is doing it wrong" camp.

I'm getting fencing withdrawal. It's terrible.

grimbold
2011-04-07, 11:06 AM
Also, electric equipment is awesome. It's so much easier to tell who scored what point.:smallcool:
especially saber XD

Lyesmith
2011-04-07, 11:13 AM
especially saber XD

...not sure if srs.

grimbold
2011-04-08, 10:44 AM
...not sure if srs.

well in fact with my experience in saber, when you're not fencing electric the ref basically has to pray for honest fencers

when you have two pumped up guys going at it with swords which have been known to whip around at 200 mph it gets hard to tell if the guy who claims to have gotten a flick off actually did it

clear touches are pretty hard in saber and simultaneous touches are very common

101jir
2011-04-08, 08:22 PM
well in fact with my experience in saber, when you're not fencing electric the ref basically has to pray for honest fencers

when you have two pumped up guys going at it with swords which have been known to whip around at 200 mph it gets hard to tell if the guy who claims to have gotten a flick off actually did it

clear touches are pretty hard in saber and simultaneous touches are very common

Ahh. Too bad there isn't something best of both worlds. Something that you have some sort of sure way to say who got it, and also not be forced to fight linear.:smallsigh:

big teej
2011-04-08, 08:46 PM
saber here. former Knight of Siena

well... okay, more 'squire' than knight, I was like 13 and way to uncoordinated.


I'd love to pick it up again...

EDIT:
if I hadn't picked up a sword on day one, I would have turned and left the place behind.

also, does anyone have that saber-fencing t-shirt that has the 'evolution of man' thing on it with a saber fencer in the middle?

heh....

anyways,
my fencing instructor once had a guy tell him "I want to be the best in the world"
he told him.
you become the best by winning tournaments
you win tournaments by winning matches
you win matches, by winning touches
you win touches
with better footwork.

ergo
good footwork is the basis of any/all successful fencers.

araveugnitsuga
2011-04-08, 08:51 PM
Ahh. Too bad there isn't something best of both worlds. Something that you have some sort of sure way to say who got it, and also not be forced to fight linear.:smallsigh:

Use weaponized sabres? That way you can easily detect the victor as the one not covered in blood.

Alternatively find a circle that doesn't do electric equipment and/or official rules.
Some people at my academy normally agreed during practice to go that way since it was more fun and strategically interesting, I sometimes joined them.

SaintRidley
2011-04-08, 10:34 PM
well in fact with my experience in saber, when you're not fencing electric the ref basically has to pray for honest fencers

when you have two pumped up guys going at it with swords which have been known to whip around at 200 mph it gets hard to tell if the guy who claims to have gotten a flick off actually did it

clear touches are pretty hard in saber and simultaneous touches are very common

I know from experience judging dry sabre bouts with my club that Most of the time there will be a pair of attacks, the fencers stop and look at me and ask if I have a clue what happened because they sure don't. I think it's pretty common in dry sabre for a good chunk of simultaneous hits to be awarded on right-of-way, with right-of-way given on the basis of "That one looked far more attacky there."


Sabre without electric is just hard to watch and know who is getting a point. So glad electric was developed for it.

grimbold
2011-04-09, 02:31 AM
"That one looked far more attacky there."


that pretty much describes right of way in 90% of saber touches
also screaming in victory
if you shout your victory you are more likely to win the point

101jir
2011-04-09, 10:05 PM
that pretty much describes right of way in 90% of saber touches
also screaming in victory
if you shout your victory you are more likely to win the point

I'll keep that in mind:smalltongue:.

grimbold
2011-04-10, 03:58 AM
I'll keep that in mind:smalltongue:.

yeah
most of saber fencing involves maniacal screaming

Anuan
2011-04-10, 08:46 AM
Broadsword fencing is actually pretty common, although that usually uses a buckler instead of a parrying dagger. However, at my fencing club, there are actually quite a few guys who come down on Saturdays who do it, and a few of them also knife fight using plastic knives. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to use a knife with a broadsword, or even with an actual weapon.

...Sorry, pet peeve here. THESE are broadswords;

http://www.swordsoftheeast.com/ProductImages/scottish/scottish-swords-SH2002N.jpg

One in the Scottish style, modern, annnd

http://www.glenbow.org/images/img-col-mmp-arms-hig-4.jpg

an Italian Schiavona, which were based on Slavic blades. With a buckler or dagger, assuming it's not a rapier, it's more likely (but not exclusively) they were using what's now usually referred to as a 'sidesword.' Please confirm or deny this judging by the above pictures.

I'm a fan of historic fencing (up to and including when the term 'fencing' became popular. Rapiers and sideswords hold a special place in my heart) and have done a little in the way of Spanish rapier, but only the basest handling of the cavalry and infantry style sabres that the modern fencing sabre calls its ancestors.
I'll just edge my way out now and let the modern sport-practitioners take the field again, 'cause all your weapons are lighter and there's a lot of you and I'm not wearing any armour...

unosarta
2011-04-11, 04:25 PM
No, really, their weapons look almost exactly like that. Not everyone uses the buckler, and those who do usually use smaller weapons, but that looks almost exactly like the weapons they use.

grimbold
2011-04-13, 08:04 PM
so yeah...
lets talk fencing coaches
personally i have 2 coaches
one is blonde and angry and mean
and the other is dark haired and really nice
those are my coaches

unosarta
2011-04-13, 08:12 PM
so yeah...
lets talk fencing coaches
personally i have 2 coaches
one is blonde and angry and mean
and the other is dark haired and really nice
those are my coaches

At my club, there are like 6. They do a weeeeiiirrrd switcheroo schedule. Basically, one coach does Epee only, for the competitive class. One does Foil exclusively for the competitive class, but he can't work on Tuesdays or Mondays. One coach does Sabre, but he also covers for Foil on Tuesdays and Mondays. One coach usually just does paperwork, and covers for the Sabre coach on Tuesdays and Mondays. And that is just the competitive class.

For the non-competitives, there is one Foil coach, who also does Sabre sometimes. There is one Sabre coach, who pretty much primarily does Sabre. There is one Epee coach, who also subs in for the competitive Epee coach when said coach is on vacation.

And then there is the younger class, which has two or three coaches.

And the adult class, which has the competitive Sabre/Foil coach and I think another man/woman.

Yeah. It gets pretty complicated. And, that isn't even counting the people who do desk work, or other stuff like that.

Fortunately, I know pretty much every coach at my club personally, and they are all pretty cool people.

Dainbramaged01
2011-04-13, 08:24 PM
I've only a day's worth of formal experience with European fencing, though I have read numerous texts which delve into it extensively, and I've personally studied Kendo and other Japanese weapon forms for over a decade now.

It's always a treat when myself and two of my friends, one of whom is a long-time saber-fencer, the other a foil and epee practitioner, can get together to spar and compare notes. Such disparate styles force one to take a step back and re-think how one's actions may be reacted to, countered, or effective against a completely different sort of tactics and equipment. I truly believe its made each of us better combatants, both in the ring, and 'in the street,' as it were.

Toss in the occasional chance to spar with and learn from my best friend, an active U.S. Marine with an impressive mastery over the combat knife, and discussions of range-effectiveness take on a whole new depth.:smallbiggrin:

grimbold
2011-04-14, 08:25 AM
At my club, there are like 6. They do a weeeeiiirrrd switcheroo schedule. Basically, one coach does Epee only, for the competitive class. One does Foil exclusively for the competitive class, but he can't work on Tuesdays or Mondays. One coach does Sabre, but he also covers for Foil on Tuesdays and Mondays. One coach usually just does paperwork, and covers for the Sabre coach on Tuesdays and Mondays. And that is just the competitive class.

For the non-competitives, there is one Foil coach, who also does Sabre sometimes. There is one Sabre coach, who pretty much primarily does Sabre. There is one Epee coach, who also subs in for the competitive Epee coach when said coach is on vacation.

And then there is the younger class, which has two or three coaches.

And the adult class, which has the competitive Sabre/Foil coach and I think another man/woman.

Yeah. It gets pretty complicated. And, that isn't even counting the people who do desk work, or other stuff like that.

Fortunately, I know pretty much every coach at my club personally, and they are all pretty cool people.

i went to a club like that once for about 2 months
sure it was world class but the coaches were jerks

which is a bit of advice for joining a club
make sure the coach is not a jerk

101jir
2011-04-14, 09:29 AM
*snip* make sure the coach is not a jerk

I think that works for pretty much anything. Except maybe military:smallwink:.

grimbold
2011-04-15, 04:56 PM
I think that works for pretty much anything. Except maybe military:smallwink:.

well
youre pretty much right

BiblioRook
2011-04-17, 01:03 PM
My two coaches from back in college where a husband and wife team. It was hilarious because physically they couldn't be more different from each other; one was lanky and tall while the other was short and squat. Both were awesome.


I've never had an experience with coaches that were jerks, I have had plenty of jerkish fencers.
Both with personal observation and from stories my teammates would tell there really seemed to be a correlation between skill rank and *******ry, ether in the snooty condescending way or the malicious try to get away with stuff way. There was this one guy in my club, I hated him sooo much, he was just so pretentious, but for some reason everyone tolerated him because he was one of the highest ranking fencers there. I didn't find out until much later that everyone in the club hated him as much as I did. I was thrilled when he graduated because I thought it meant he would move on to another club... but he ended up sticking around! :smallmad:
Anyone else run into this, or was I just unfortunate with the fencers in my area?

grimbold
2011-04-17, 08:23 PM
well a lot of the pretentious fencers are pretentious because they feel that everybody else needs to tighten up and behave more strictly, and when this is true then they are correct in being pretentious
i feel that people need to stay focused to get to the top of their game so at times i am the pretentious coach helper but i feel that i am doing it for the good of the club

BiblioRook
2011-04-17, 09:46 PM
No, I'm not talking about people like that. I mean more people that feel their unpleasant personalities or actions should be justifiable simply because they also happen to fence well.

araveugnitsuga
2011-04-17, 10:28 PM
No, I'm not talking about people like that. I mean more people that feel their unpleasant personalities or actions should be justifiable simply because they also happen to fence well.
Well, it's related to:




People who seriously want to fence - 5%
People who feel fencing will make them interesting/Frustrated aristocrats - 10%

People who are into fencing in an almost professional level, or heck, a professional level will take it pretty seriously as it is practically their life, so it's serious business to them and they will probably be quite sensitive about it, on the other hand beginners and intermediate still see it as a hobby or a sport, so they will see this guy as being to hardcore.

Frustrated aristocrats use it for compensating their pretences of glory by getting a high level so that even if they are jerks they still get respect around because, well, the team kinda still wants them despite, effectively simulating their precepts of the aristocracy they failed to be born into.

grimbold
2011-04-18, 11:46 AM
bibliorook i can se your point
i definitely agree that some aristocrats are being elitist just because
however if they are actively trying to teach people i am typically cool with them, however if they are just sitting in the corner scorning people then yeah no, they are being jerks
but yeah
if you teach people at your club you are officially awesome

Renegade Paladin
2011-04-18, 06:03 PM
I fence heavy rapier. Staying on a line is for suckers, and one good bind would snap a foil like a twig. :smalltongue:

Anuan
2011-04-19, 04:43 AM
I fence heavy rapier. Staying on a line is for suckers, and one good bind would snap a foil like a twig. :smalltongue:

I like you. :smallbiggrin:

101jir
2011-04-19, 08:48 AM
I fence heavy rapier. Staying on a line is for suckers, and one good bind would snap a foil like a twig. :smalltongue:

Agreed! I only did fencing once at the Renassance Festival, and I loved circling!

grimbold
2011-04-19, 02:30 PM
I fence heavy rapier. Staying on a line is for suckers, and one good bind would snap a foil like a twig. :smalltongue:

sigh
how true,
when i started i thought that by now i would get to use heavy rapiers, instead, i am just some slavering saber fencer

BiblioRook
2011-04-20, 12:01 AM
I fence heavy rapier. Staying on a line is for suckers, and one good bind would snap a foil like a twig. :smalltongue:

I actually might be able to get in on this. I have a few friends into SCA and I mentioned how I used to fence, so now they are encouraging me to participating in the medieval fencing classes they have to offer.

I totally would, but right now I'm not sure I can justify the expense :smallsigh:

grimbold
2011-04-21, 01:01 PM
how much does it cost?

BiblioRook
2011-04-21, 03:03 PM
Not much at all technically, They are having a big weekend thing will classes all four days Memorial Day weekend for $60, but being the poor student I am I not really in a position to pay much of anything at the moment unfortunately...

grimbold
2011-04-22, 05:51 PM
Not much at all technically, They are having a big weekend thing will classes all four days Memorial Day weekend for $60, but being the poor student I am I not really in a position to pay much of anything at the moment unfortunately...

thats unfortunate
but wow i didnt knoww it was so cheap ima look into this

Renegade Paladin
2011-04-24, 03:49 PM
thats unfortunate
but wow i didnt knoww it was so cheap ima look into this
The SCA is an educational nonprofit. The event he refers to is actually kind of outrageously expensive; most of our weekend things are $10-$12 or so for the site fee, and by Society law, all practices are free. The biggest expense in fencing by far is the swords, and that's a one-time purchase barring some sort of freaky accident. Most groups will have loaner gear to learn on as well, so you don't have to drop a huge chunk of change up front only to find out you don't like it.

BiblioRook
2011-04-24, 10:46 PM
Yeah, this event I was refuring too is by far the biggest event they have. The $60 doesn't so much pay for the lessons as it does pay for the four days of camping. :smallsigh:

(That $60 also doesn't cover any of the other miscellaneous expenses that come with four days of camping including food, gear, supplies, and multiple costumes because being in costume is mandatory and you don't want to be stuck wearing the same thing all weekend without a change. Also not counting all the money you will waste on all the stuff being sold at the even itself. @_@ )

Renegade Paladin
2011-04-25, 12:27 AM
Yeah, this event I was refuring too is by far the biggest event they have.
The Pennsic War is not on Memorial Day weekend. :smalltongue:

BiblioRook
2011-04-25, 01:52 AM
Actually apparently it is, because that happens to be the exact event I was talking about :smalltongue:

grimbold
2011-04-25, 03:45 AM
Wait
am i the only fencer who uses his fencing skill for LARPing
i LARP a killer fighter

Renegade Paladin
2011-04-25, 04:00 AM
Actually apparently it is, because that happens to be the exact event I was talking about :smalltongue:
Then you don't know much about it, as it lasts for two weeks, not four days, and the site fee is over a hundred dollars. :smallamused:

grimbold
2011-04-25, 06:42 AM
Then you don't know much about it, as it lasts for two weeks, not four days, and the site fee is over a hundred dollars. :smallamused:

now i am confused

Erloas
2011-04-25, 10:29 AM
As far as I can find, Potrero War is the only war during Memorial Day weekend. It isn't the biggest war by far, but its decent sized and one of the larger ones in the California area.

Pennsic is the very end of July and first part of August. And yes, it is a lot more expensive then $60. I'm going to be going to Pennsic for the first time this year, since I know a friend close in the area and the 40th seems like a good one to make it to.

BiblioRook
2011-04-25, 11:57 AM
Yeah, my mistake, I was talking about Potrero War. Named looked simuler enough and I've only really heard it said in passing so I assumed you were talking about the same one.

101jir
2011-04-25, 07:34 PM
I don't mean to get too out of the way of the current direction this thread is moving, but just quickly, are double hits ever counted in rapier fighting if it is close enough?

Anuan
2011-04-25, 07:46 PM
I couldn't talk for most fencing clubs that happen to also do rapier fencing, but in most of the rennaisance re-enactment groups and Western Martial Arts places that teach rapier (Prima Spada School of Fence is a good one around here) the school of thought is generally "You're both wielding swords. If you get hit, you've been hit with a bladed weapon, even if you managed to hit them half a second before. Momentum exists."

BiblioRook
2011-04-26, 02:42 AM
That and with epee rules already conveniently available, I really don't see why they wouldn't count double hits. But that would just be my guess, I really have zero experience with such.

Renegade Paladin
2011-04-26, 06:10 AM
I can't speak for the three styles of sport fencing, but SCA convention for double hits varies widely by location and even by whoever organized the tournament that day - I've seen everything from refight the bout as many times as necessary to get a single winner to "You both lose, and have to skip to the scoring table arm in arm to so inform the clerk." :smalltongue: Most common by far is to refight once and if a second double kill occurs, both combatants are considered to lose.

Edit: I should say that round robin tournament formats with the winner of the most fights winning the tournament are far more common than elimination formats in SCA fencing (though the latter does occur), so having both participants take a loss doesn't screw up an elimination chart. If it is an elimination tourney (usually a sure sign of someone who primarily fights heavy weapons doing the organizing :smallwink:) refighting until a clear winner is determined is much more common.

grimbold
2011-04-26, 10:39 AM
That and with epee rules already conveniently available, I really don't see why they wouldn't count double hits. But that would just be my guess, I really have zero experience with such.

yes however it should be noted that double hits ONLY happen in epee

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-04-26, 10:54 AM
Wait
am i the only fencer who uses his fencing skill for LARPing
i LARP a killer fighter

Definitely not, although I've never done a LARP. I have done the LARP-style of combat though, and my fencing helps both my sword-fighting and my staff-fighting.

In fact, after a great 20 v. 2 battle where my friend and I (the team of 2) won despite him being taken out while 17 were left standing, I'm no longer allowed to use either the sword or the staff during our little matches. They've limited me to a single 1.5 foot long dirk to keep things fairly balanced, and I still rack up a good number of kills every game. :smallbiggrin:

grimbold
2011-04-26, 12:31 PM
Definitely not, although I've never done a LARP. I have done the LARP-style of combat though, and my fencing helps both my sword-fighting and my staff-fighting.

In fact, after a great 20 v. 2 battle where my friend and I (the team of 2) won despite him being taken out while 17 were left standing, I'm no longer allowed to use either the sword or the staff during our little matches. They've limited me to a single 1.5 foot long dirk to keep things fairly balanced, and I still rack up a good number of kills every game. :smallbiggrin:

thats pretty awesome

once i was LARPing and it was me and my best friend (nicknamed treeboy) versus like 20 people. Treeboy would ambush people from above whenever i got surrounded
i think i took out 18 people then

also people do not like having 'just for fun' fights with me anymore :smallfrown:

Erloas
2011-04-26, 12:58 PM
For the last 10ish years I've known I wouldn't be able to try LARP (or any of the other foam combats) since doing hardsuit in the SCA. I'm way too trained to throw for the head and pulling blows isn't something we do 99% of the time.

Although at some show they had the really big foam staffs with Velcro heads that I did, first bout lasted about 2 seconds, the last one lasted a long time, but half of that was because I wanted more of a show, and part was because my glasses half fell off and I couldn't see anything.

101jir
2011-04-26, 12:59 PM
Definitely not, although I've never done a LARP. I have done the LARP-style of combat though, and my fencing helps both my sword-fighting and my staff-fighting.

In fact, after a great 20 v. 2 battle where my friend and I (the team of 2) won despite him being taken out while 17 were left standing, I'm no longer allowed to use either the sword or the staff during our little matches. They've limited me to a single 1.5 foot long dirk to keep things fairly balanced, and I still rack up a good number of kills every game. :smallbiggrin:

LOL:smalltongue:! That's totally awesome!:smallamused:

grimbold
2011-04-26, 02:16 PM
For the last 10ish years I've known I wouldn't be able to try LARP (or any of the other foam combats) since doing hardsuit in the SCA. I'm way too trained to throw for the head and pulling blows isn't something we do 99% of the time.

Although at some show they had the really big foam staffs with Velcro heads that I did, first bout lasted about 2 seconds, the last one lasted a long time, but half of that was because I wanted more of a show, and part was because my glasses half fell off and I couldn't see anything.

thats...
very impressive

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-04-26, 02:45 PM
LOL:smalltongue:! That's totally awesome!:smallamused:

What makes it even better is that the first fight I used the 1.5 foot sword began with my team forming a flying wedge, opening the front when we charge the enemy team, and sending me charging into them single-handedly. I took down four people from that assault alone, 'cause they were to surprised to do anything about it.

Timeless Error
2011-04-26, 02:48 PM
Wait
am i the only fencer who uses his fencing skill for LARPing
i LARP a killer fighter

Nope, you're not. I'm not part of any LARP club or organization or anything, but I do occasionally LARP with a friend of mine (who also fences) and his brother (who has almost no clue what he's doing).


I have done the LARP-style of combat though, and my fencing helps both my sword-fighting and my staff-fighting.

In fact, after a great 20 v. 2 battle where my friend and I (the team of 2) won despite him being taken out while 17 were left standing, I'm no longer allowed to use either the sword or the staff during our little matches. They've limited me to a single 1.5 foot long dirk to keep things fairly balanced, and I still rack up a good number of kills every game. :smallbiggrin:

That's hilarious! I've never tried fencing/LARPing with a weapon as small as your dirk, but my friend (who I'm fairly evenly matched with), armed with a 4-5 inch dagger, once took on his brother armed with a 3-ft battleaxe. He lost, but it was a close fight that lasted quite a while.

By the way, when I'm not fencing, my preferred weapon is definitely also a staff/spear, as long as it's light enough to move quickly.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-04-26, 04:45 PM
That's hilarious! I've never tried fencing/LARPing with a weapon as small as your dirk, but my friend (who I'm fairly evenly matched with), armed with a 4-5 inch dagger, once took on his brother armed with a 3-ft battleaxe. He lost, but it was a close fight that lasted quite a while.

Heh. First dagger fight I did was against a guy with a broadsword. He swung once, I ducked and rolled, slipped under his guard, and slashed him across the stomach with the thing. Victory to me in one strike. :smallbiggrin:

Still, I'm damn impressed by anyone who can actually make that fight last. If I hadn't won so quickly, I think I'd have had some serious trouble.

Renegade Paladin
2011-04-26, 04:54 PM
thats...
very impressive
Not really, if I get the context of what he was doing right. Most people don't know what they're doing with a sword/staff/any given weapon; for a trained combatant, ending the fight quickly is relatively easy. Back before the Belegarth guys at Gen Con stopped having open tourneys (liability issues, I presume) I'd always drop in and summarily dispatch anime fanboys who thought they'd take some crazy fighting stance with two weapons or a two-hander that left their torsos wide open to a simple thrust until I ran into an SCA heavy fighter or experienced foam fighting combatant and have to actually try. :smalltongue: (Protip: Real life is not D&D; shields are actually optimal out here.)

grimbold
2011-04-26, 05:02 PM
Not really, if I get the context of what he was doing right. Most people don't know what they're doing with a sword/staff/any given weapon; for a trained combatant, ending the fight quickly is relatively easy. Back before the Belegarth guys at Gen Con stopped having open tourneys (liability issues, I presume) I'd always drop in and summarily dispatch anime fanboys who thought they'd take some crazy fighting stance with two weapons or a two-hander that left their torsos wide open to a simple thrust until I ran into an SCA heavy fighter or experienced foam fighting combatant and have to actually try. :smalltongue: (Protip: Real life is not D&D; shields are actually optimal out here.)
this is actually an excellent good point
most people have no idea what to do when presented with a weapon

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-04-26, 05:27 PM
this is actually an excellent good point
most people have no idea what to do when presented with a weapon

Tell me about it.

My single favorite moment of my college boffer combat thing was a perfect example of this. As I mentioned, me wielding a sword or staff was considered to be the be-all-and-end-all of our college's club, and so when we got a guy joining us who claimed to be a master of staff fighting, he naturally wanted to go up against me.

We faced off about 10 feet apart, and he proceeded to perform the single most awe-inspiring display of staff acrobatics I've ever seen in real life. My somewhat acidic response was merely "That's very impressive...but can you actually hit me from over there?" He replied, rather pretentiously (he was a very pretentious fellow) "Of course. My fighting style gives me reach."

My reply was twofold: "So does mine," followed by a textbook lunge, which brought the tip of my staff straight into his chest, knocking him over. He apparently never saw it coming, and wouldn't have known how to stop it if he had. He'd gotten all of the show, but none of the expertise. :smallbiggrin:

Erloas
2011-04-26, 06:01 PM
Yeah, I don't think there is any fighting group out there that doesn't run into people thinking they know what they are doing when they actually have no idea.

And in the context of the SCA at least, experienced fighters will quickly humble them with something that will leave a nice bruise, usually a good butt wrap. Once they realize they need to learn then things go much better. Of course if you come in humble then people are pretty nice, until you get good enough to force them to step up their effort.
My brother and I were talking about that not too long ago about the guy I'm squired to. How it seems like you are getting good and really putting up a fight, and then he steps it up to the next level and you once again feel like you've got a long ways to go.

Another funny story along the same lines is one of my friends, shes probably 5'4" (if that) and left handed. The first time she fought her son he was probably 16 and about 6' tall, within a couple quick passes she hits him with a very solid cup shot. Not necessarily on purpose, but she made him believe she could do it whenever she wanted to keep him in line.

pffh
2011-04-26, 06:08 PM
*snip*

So what do you fence with?

I envy all off you. I really want to try my hand at boffer combat or larping but there are zero larpers in the entire country and the two times someone has tried to larp here one was a one time joke Harry potter larp for the latest movie and one was featured in two of our three newspapers as a strange oddity that only 30+ year olds still living with their parents and children would like and quickly broke down because of that (and was held at the other end of the country).

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-04-26, 06:30 PM
So what do you fence with?

I'm best at foil (got 16th at Div III nationals, and that was a few years before I really hit my stride...sadly, I don't really have time/money to travel for the nationals these days), but I fence a decent epee when I'm in practice.

grimbold
2011-04-27, 02:51 AM
I'm best at foil (got 16th at Div III nationals, and that was a few years before I really hit my stride...sadly, I don't really have time/money to travel for the nationals these days), but I fence a decent epee when I'm in practice.

16th Div III is pretty impressive buddy
keep it up

however
how do you do national competitions after college?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-04-27, 10:29 AM
16th Div III is pretty impressive buddy
keep it up

however
how do you do national competitions after college?

Well, in the non-college nationals, which is what I meant with Div III. The USFA holds the US Summer Nationals every year, and you have to qualify in a by-state competition. Div III is the lowest of the national divisions, being limited to fencers with a B rating or lower, I believe. Still, some damn intense competition.

grimbold
2011-04-27, 10:46 AM
Well, in the non-college nationals, which is what I meant with Div III. The USFA holds the US Summer Nationals every year, and you have to qualify in a by-state competition. Div III is the lowest of the national divisions, being limited to fencers with a B rating or lower, I believe. Still, some damn intense competition.
okay
thanks for explaining that
its works... different in france

BiblioRook
2011-04-28, 01:24 PM
Another funny story along the same lines is one of my friends, shes probably 5'4" (if that) and left handed. The first time she fought her son he was probably 16 and about 6' tall, within a couple quick passes she hits him with a very solid cup shot. Not necessarily on purpose, but she made him believe she could do it whenever she wanted to keep him in line.

My one fencing instructor loves using a certain story to illustrate how everything is target area in epee. She's often underestimated because she's short, and once in a tournament the guy she was fighting ether got sloppy or over confident because when he went for a strike he stepped alittle to high... and she won by one point with a hit on the bottom of his foot.

101jir
2011-04-28, 02:09 PM
My one fencing instructor loves using a certain story to illustrate how everything is target area in epee. She's often underestimated because she's short, and once in a tournament the guy she was fighting ether got sloppy or over confident because when he went for a strike he stepped alittle to high... and she won by one point with a hit on the bottom of his foot.

My sister and I often do freestyle at home (although the tools are a bit flimsy). I always fo for the wrist, sice it is the closest, and would realistically result in the opponent dropping the sword.

grimbold
2011-04-28, 02:41 PM
My one fencing instructor loves using a certain story to illustrate how everything is target area in epee. She's often underestimated because she's short, and once in a tournament the guy she was fighting ether got sloppy or over confident because when he went for a strike he stepped alittle to high... and she won by one point with a hit on the bottom of his foot.

yeah i've heard of that type of thing
its crazy when you see it happen (i saw it once like 3 years ago and afterwards there was much rejoicing)
silly epee fencers