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Bloody Initiate
2011-03-26, 01:57 AM
Gadacro:

Overall this class looks good, most of my suggestions are for slightly empowering the little bugger or at least making him scale better. He's not starving for ability at all, I just think he might benefit from a more vertical spread.

-That claw is pretty sweet. It feels like you could start it at 20 x2 and then give it +1 range every 2 HD or every class level after 1st. You could also make the multiplier increase by one at 2nd or 3rd level or make it +1 multiplier per 3 HD. That's more an idea than a criticism, since the weapon is pretty sweet for 1st level but also unique. NOTE: I start from the top and read my way down. I made this suggestion before I saw you allowed him iterative attacks.

-Dex increase could be at all levels and be fine. It's not a problem as is, just looks like you were being timid.

-Sneak attack could safely scale. +1d6 per 2 HD or per 3 HD

-Love the Sudden Escape ability :smallsmile:, although it's really very good... see my thoughts on Scavenger's frenzy below. The two of them together are a lot for free.

-Reinforcements should start with more uses per day or should at least gain uses per day as he gains HD. +1 use on every odd-numbered HD, for example. I might have also made it tanar'ri only, but since this ability has a different name it's not really that big a deal to be able to summon different things. EDIT: Thinking on this it struck me as odd that you can't summon Gadacros. Perhaps add a sentence saying other Gadacros are added to your list?

-Swarm tactics feels stunted. Sneak attack makes up for it partially, but maybe +1 attack per flanking ally? It's not a bad ability at all, especially since it's free (Not a stance), but just flanking feels like hitting a low ceiling - you could go higher. Without scaling sneak attack this doesn't scale.

-Cripple Senses is cool :smallwink:

-Binding Curse is nice, but why do them the courtesy of letting them fall slowly? At least make it scale so they fall at full speed at higher levels.

-Scavenger's Frenzy is also very good, although other things like it feel more elegant, this serves its purpose. I think you might actually do well to take a page from Travel Devotion and let him move his speed as a swift action. This will add a cost/trade-off decision where the player has to choose whether to get in or get out fast. As it is they move action in, full attack, freely immediate action out. If this costs a swift action he has to choose whether he wants an easy way in or an easy way out and he doesn't just get to enjoy both with minimal cost.

Another option is to move some of the abilities up in HD, since he doesn't really need pounce for at least 3 levels after he completes his Gadacro levels.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-26, 02:59 AM
We've done that. I yammer at people all the time to put that stuff in their monsters.
Note that every single devil gains the same "devil" ability at level 2, and every single demon gains the "demon" ability at level 2.
This in mind, should I make one final small modification to the skeroloth? Essentially, adding the yugoloth traits to level 2.

Makiru
2011-03-26, 03:24 AM
I have to parrot BI's statement regarding the gadacro's talon attack. Having an augmented critical right out of the gate is a bit scary, in addition to constantly improving flight.

Also, a picture would be nice for the people who don't know what the gadacro looks like, not to mention it being part of the guidelines.

Incidentally, I do know what it looks like cause I love me some MMV.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-26, 03:38 AM
Wooohooo! Done with the Breath Powers. :smallcool:

Just need three more path abilities, and the capstone (or two, if I separate them based on path choice), and then I'm done!

Lyndworm
2011-03-26, 03:46 AM
Also, a picture would be nice for the people who don't know what the gadacro looks like, not to mention it being part of the guidelines.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM5_Gallery/106286.jpg

Official MMV artwork for you. It's a little small, though...

Frog Dragon
2011-03-26, 05:41 AM
Behold! The reconceptualized Black Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10246297&postcount=148)!

*Is finally done.*

Cogidubnus
2011-03-26, 06:20 AM
Black Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10246297&postcount=148)

Spoilered for length. Ed: Accidentally posted before done. Give me some time to finish xD

1) Black Dragon is amphibious. Can it make melee attacks underwater without penalty? How about fire spells?

2)
Just as others of their kind take up arcane studies from their lairs, other drakes rely on the bare minimum of magic their heritage gives them, while focusing the full of their draconic might to improve their physical prowess. Just as some of their kind?

3) War Dragon - Snkirmish damage? Also, your current option allows a black dragon to get +9d6 skirmish damage by level twenty. Not obscene, but nearly twice the Skirmishers.
Holy X It's A Dragon - rather than charging them in the surprise round, maybe charging a flat-footed opponent? You've given initiative bonuses, might as well synergise with them, and you won't always get to surprise your enemies.
Caustic Essence - do you really need to state it's activated as a free action? It doesn't seem to requite an action at all, alongside being used as part of an attack action. Also, you say "times per day equal to", but missed out "a number of".
But I definitely like the choice and flexibility here. Onto...

4) Dragon Mage - Druid or Sorcerer spell list? Sorcerer is clearly the superior.
You allow it to gain large INT bonuses, but don't allow it to use INT as casting stat.
Grand Dracomancy - We've got the "times per day" problem again. But I really like the flavour of this ability. Captures just how Dragons cast.
Scale Thaumaturgy is also good - adds some flexibility to the limited spell list.

5) Keen Senses - I'm not totally objecting to the ability to see in magical darkness, but the only monsters to have that in the MM are Devils, and that's because they were given it before the developers decided Darkvision couldn't penetrate magical darkness.

6) Breath Power - once again, you're adding flexibility, which is good.

7) Hide of the Skull Dragon - *ninght level*. Typo needs fixing.

8) Dragon Mage - quoting the ability for dissection, bolded small corrections.


The Dragon Mage can use its Scale Thaumaturgy to cast spells otherwise out of its reach. It can inscribe a seventh level spell on a scale, and has a - remove three seventh level spell slots it can use to cast this spell. In addition, the spells gained by scale thaumaturgy no longer fade when they are being cast, but can be cast up to 3 times before fading. Finally, the dragon no longer has a limitation on how many scales it can have of spell slots higher than 4, though it can still only craft three spellscales per day.

Now, I was at first confused as to how this ability works, because I forgot that with Bardic casting you only have 6th level spells. Might be worth wording it in such a way as to remind readers of the fact that most Black Dragons cast like Bards.
Also, "has three seventh level spells slots it can use to cast this spell" might be better phrased as "can cast this spell three times per day without using up a spell slot", as it's confusing if you've got sorcerer levels and sorcerer casting coupled with it.

Otherwise, I commend you on making it interesting, flexible and suitably sneakily thematic.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-26, 09:17 AM
Black Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10246297&postcount=148)

Spoilered for length. Ed: Accidentally posted before done. Give me some time to finish xD

1) Black Dragon is amphibious. Can it make melee attacks underwater without penalty? How about fire spells? Clarified.

2) Just as some of their kind? Changed.

3) War Dragon - Snkirmish damage? Also, your current option allows a black dragon to get +9d6 skirmish damage by level twenty. Not obscene, but nearly twice the Skirmishers. The scout also gets AC bonuses to back it up, and this kinda falls into the "woop woop 30 damage" issue. I think I'll keep it for now, unless I get more opposition.
Holy X It's A Dragon - rather than charging them in the surprise round, maybe charging a flat-footed opponent? You've given initiative bonuses, might as well synergise with them, and you won't always get to surprise your enemies. It's surprise round because it's intended to represent the dragon springing out of nowhere and plunging the enemy into chaos in the space of two seconds. The effect is also a rather brutal debuff, which is why I limited its use like that. I did clarify that one flat footed enemies take the penalties, to avoid the silliness of someone who totally saw it coming and actually acted in the surprise round before the dragon still taking the penalties.
Caustic Essence - do you really need to state it's activated as a free action? It doesn't seem to requite an action at all, alongside being used as part of an attack action. Also, you say "times per day equal to", but missed out "a number of". I thought it might be a bit too much to spam it constantly with all the other damage potential the dragon has. Changed the wording on actions.
But I definitely like the choice and flexibility here. Onto...

4) Dragon Mage - Druid or Sorcerer spell list? Sorcerer is clearly the superior.
You allow it to gain large INT bonuses, but don't allow it to use INT as casting stat. They get to cherry pick spells from the other list, which favors druid casting. Druid casting dragons also get bonus spells from domains. This intended to bring them closer to par.
Grand Dracomancy - We've got the "times per day" problem again. But I really like the flavour of this ability. Captures just how Dragons cast.
Scale Thaumaturgy is also good - adds some flexibility to the limited spell list.

5) Keen Senses - I'm not totally objecting to the ability to see in magical darkness, but the only monsters to have that in the MM are Devils, and that's because they were given it before the developers decided Darkvision couldn't penetrate magical darkness. In this case, I think it fits the black dragon. It's a much sneakier dragon than most, and this kind of boon in vision seems just right there.

6) Breath Power - once again, you're adding flexibility, which is good.

7) Hide of the Skull Dragon - *ninght level*. Typo needs fixing. Fixed.

8) Dragon Mage - quoting the ability for dissection, bolded small corrections.



Now, I was at first confused as to how this ability works, because I forgot that with Bardic casting you only have 6th level spells. Might be worth wording it in such a way as to remind readers of the fact that most Black Dragons cast like Bards.
Also, "has three seventh level spells slots it can use to cast this spell" might be better phrased as "can cast this spell three times per day without using up a spell slot", as it's confusing if you've got sorcerer levels and sorcerer casting coupled with it. The problem with your wording is that at level 20, it could inscribe three level 7 spells, and use each slot on a different spell, all on the same, on any combination thereof. Nevertheless, I clarified the abilities.

Otherwise, I commend you on making it interesting, flexible and suitably sneakily thematic.
Responses in blue.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-26, 09:22 AM
"You allow it to gain large INT bonuses, but don't allow it to use INT as casting stat."

Just wondered if you had any thoughts on this, as you didn't comment on it.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-26, 09:31 AM
Kinda missed it in my commentary phase.

I was thinking of maybe later adding a Xorvintaal version, based on Int. But yeah, the option to use Draconic Path to boost int is pretty pointless right now.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-26, 09:54 AM
I tend to think Int boosts should be given early or not at all. You don't gain skill points retroactively so after awhile they're just not useful. In fact I would even suggest lumping them at 1st level if you're going to grant them, because +1 int for the first four levels for a total of +4 is actually less useful than +2 int at level 1 (There's a bit of precedent in other monster classes here, so it's not unheard of). It may seem that if you give massive int bonuses early they can jump out at 3rd level and still work their way up the wizard elevator, but being 3 levels behind hurts enough to matter.

Although if it's not a casting stat and you're not using it for anything, you can simulate a high Int with more skill points per level. If you really don't like that I suppose it doesn't matter, because bonuses to Intelligence throughout the levels aren't going to hurt anything if you don't tie them to stuff (a la Warblade), but they do add unnecessary clutter to the class table while being nigh-useless.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-26, 10:40 AM
The dragon mage has int dependent features.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-26, 10:53 AM
The dragon mage has int dependent features.

Why not make the ability increases dependent on the path then?

-I'm reading through it, and you aren't using Int that much.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-26, 11:03 AM
Some of the ability increases actually are dependent on path. Every time your Draconic Path advances, you get a +1 to either Str, Int or Cha.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-26, 11:03 AM
-That claw is pretty sweet. It feels like you could start it at 20 x2 and then give it +1 range every 2 HD or every class level after 1st. You could also make the multiplier increase by one at 2nd or 3rd level or make it +1 multiplier per 3 HD. That's more an idea than a criticism, since the weapon is pretty sweet for 1st level but also unique. NOTE: I start from the top and read my way down. I made this suggestion before I saw you allowed him iterative attacks.

It's definitely an upgrade on a shortsword, but I frankly feel the talon is fine as-is; I mean, the little guy has no reach, a size penalty on most combat manuevers with it, and he's going to run into difficulty enchanting it.


-Dex increase could be at all levels and be fine. It's not a problem as is, just looks like you were being timid.

Odd-numbered ability increase totals are sloppy, which is why I went with +2.


-Sneak attack could safely scale. +1d6 per 2 HD or per 3 HD

It'd be pretty awkward if he multiclassed Rogue or another SA class. Sneak Attack is the Gadacro's main damage for those three levels, true, but after that a PC class takes up the work.


-Reinforcements should start with more uses per day or should at least gain uses per day as he gains HD. +1 use on every odd-numbered HD, for example. I might have also made it tanar'ri only, but since this ability has a different name it's not really that big a deal to be able to summon different things. EDIT: Thinking on this it struck me as odd that you can't summon Gadacros. Perhaps add a sentence saying other Gadacros are added to your list?

Gadacros are on the list for summon monster IV, and a Gadacro summoning more of its kind gets a bonus one.


-Swarm tactics feels stunted. Sneak attack makes up for it partially, but maybe +1 attack per flanking ally? It's not a bad ability at all, especially since it's free (Not a stance), but just flanking feels like hitting a low ceiling - you could go higher. Without scaling sneak attack this doesn't scale.

On the other hand, with additional Sneak Attack progression from Rogue or Spellthief levels, Swarm Tactics becomes much better, especially if you can get a partner like another Gadacro or a Nightsong Infiltrator.


-Binding Curse is nice, but why do them the courtesy of letting them fall slowly? At least make it scale so they fall at full speed at higher levels.

It shall be done.


-Scavenger's Frenzy is also very good, although other things like it feel more elegant, this serves its purpose. I think you might actually do well to take a page from Travel Devotion and let him move his speed as a swift action. This will add a cost/trade-off decision where the player has to choose whether to get in or get out fast. As it is they move action in, full attack, freely immediate action out. If this costs a swift action he has to choose whether he wants an easy way in or an easy way out and he doesn't just get to enjoy both with minimal cost.

Most melee classes need some kind of pounce, and rogues especially are in desperate need of it. It's true that they can port out immediately, but even at level 20 they're only poofing a hundred feet, which isn't enough space for the Gadacro to feel safe from other flying monsters, uberchargers, archers, wizards, et cetera. It's more useful to set up flanks and tactical positioning than anything.

Thanks for the review! I'll make a few changes, and I hope to see a few more reviews to fine-tune the little buggers.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-26, 11:28 AM
It's definitely an upgrade on a shortsword, but I frankly feel the talon is fine as-is; I mean, the little guy has no reach, a size penalty on most combat manuevers with it, and he's going to run into difficulty enchanting it.

Since Combat Maneuvers mostly suck anyway and are never the business of rogues, that strikes me as irrelevant.



Odd-numbered ability increase totals are sloppy, which is why I went with +2.

How is a total of +3 more sloppy than +1 at a time? Especially since your next level is 4, and having odd-numbered scores makes the 4 HD increases less awkward.

It's not important, and it's fine with the +2, I just didn't see +3 as more sloppy than +1 at a time and the MMV guy has higher dex than con.



It'd be pretty awkward if he multiclassed Rogue or another SA class. Sneak Attack is the Gadacro's main damage for those three levels, true, but after that a PC class takes up the work.

Except multiclassing into rogue for sneak attack sucks as badly as being a rogue in the first place. If I were playing the Gadacro I'd be hitting Swordsage or another Martial Adept next, or perhaps my beloved Duskblade. If he wants to focus on sneak attack, it'll cost him as much as he gains, but at least that will be a choice he can make.



Gadacros are on the list for summon monster IV, and a Gadacro summoning more of its kind gets a bonus one.

Sweet, didn't know that.



Most melee classes need some kind of pounce, and rogues especially are in desperate need of it. It's true that they can port out immediately, but even at level 20 they're only poofing a hundred feet, which isn't enough space for the Gadacro to feel safe from other flying monsters, uberchargers, archers, wizards, et cetera. It's more useful to set up flanks and tactical positioning than anything.

I know they need pounce, I'm saying this is a free in-out that is a little too easy. There's nothing tactical about "easy". If your class is designed to be punishing in teamwork melee without ever having to sit for more than one melee attack (Which won't carry additional problems like grapple because you teleport), you have an attack routine that will get you pretty far without ever requiring a lot of thought or effort from the player. It's autopilot.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-26, 11:39 AM
Since Combat Maneuvers mostly suck anyway and are never the business of rogues, that strikes me as irrelevant.

It's still relevant, though.


How is a total of +3 more sloppy than +1 at a time? Especially since your next level is 4, and having odd-numbered scores makes the 4 HD increases less awkward.

It's not important, and it's fine with the +2, I just didn't see +3 as more sloppy than +1 at a time and the MMV guy has higher dex than con.

It has to do with how the numbers flip down onto a build. Odd-numbered ability score bonuses have long been avoided in D20 systems (with the noted exception of Modern) and I'm not about to break the trend.


Except multiclassing into rogue for sneak attack sucks as badly as being a rogue in the first place. If I were playing the Gadacro I'd be hitting Swordsage or another Martial Adept next, or perhaps my beloved Duskblade. If he wants to focus on sneak attack, it'll cost him as much as he gains, but at least that will be a choice he can make.

Rogue's T4 status isn't the issue, though - it's perceived balance and class definition. No DM is going to allow Gadacro if they get [Whatever They Take] + Sneak Attack, aye?


I know they need pounce, I'm saying this is a free in-out that is a little too easy. There's nothing tactical about "easy". If your class is designed to be punishing in teamwork melee without ever having to sit for more than one melee attack (Which won't carry additional problems like grapple because you teleport), you have an attack routine that will get you pretty far without ever requiring a lot of thought or effort from the player. It's autopilot.

They can only poof the once; after that, they're vulnerable until their next turn rolls around. They still have to figure out not only where they're going, but whether or not this particular opponent is worth blowing their wad to get away from.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-26, 12:11 PM
Besides, rogue isn't even a bad class. It's high tier 4, and while Factotum and Beguiler overshadow it, it's still a class capable of keeping up with what we try to balance for here. It could be stronger, but its still very workable, and doesn't require the DM making sure it's not obsoleted in the game. It also functions without much optimization, since a rogue can gain a lot of benefit just from clever use of skills, which hardly requires char-op.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-26, 12:47 PM
Black Dragon: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10246297&postcount=148)

- 1.5 Str damage not 1,5. I've seen this come up a lot, is this a nationality thing?

-His wings are "too weak to do anything for now?" Why not read through the Dragon Wings feat and give similar bonuses?

-Attribute Bonuses: +5 Strength and +5 Int by level 20? Why give them the bonuses at all if they're that low? Also Black Dragons tend to get more +Con than +Int, and you don't give them any even after they get draconic paths.

-Draconic paths once again give you the option of grabbing more Int, while having little to do with it. Further, they give no similar option for Con. The d12 is cool for getting hit points, but I'm left wondering why you're offering an Int bonus with next-to-no int-related abilities while you're making the guy huge size with no chance of withstanding the attention a huge opponent might get.

-War Dragon
-Second paragraph of War Dragon path has him gaining "snkirmish" damage.

-Instead of saying "he gains X at 1, 5, 9, 13, 17" why not just say "He gains a fighter bonus feat and +1 initiative every time he gains a Draconic Path power" etcetera etcetera. These things are 20 levels long, they need to be as easy on the eyes and as smooth to read as possible.

-Dragon Camouflage is cool (Huge Dragon hiding in a room that's barely big enough to contain it is funny), although giving them Darkstalker for free feels silly somehow. Remember the guy has some feats of his own to invest.

-Holy &%"# It's a dragon! may have seemed like a good name at the time, I'm inclined to think you would've been fine calling it Frightful Presence with some bonus damage.

-Caustic Essence... sucks. You give him massive hide bonuses at level 1, frightful presence plus bonus damage at level 5, and then out of nowhere... 1d6? 6/day breath weapon damage on a melee attack is neat I suppose...

-Hidden Dragon should have come at 9.

-Scaring people immune to fear is cool. Scaring things incapable of fear is weird. It's level 17, so I suppose it should be goofy, but "goofy" is definitely the adjective that came to mind

-Dragon Mage
-What is "cast spells as a sorcerer with the spellcasting progression of a bard" when you list a different spellcasting progression on the table after? I know some people have a hard time understanding the virtual casting, but you've added to rather than alleviated this problem. Why not make a spellcasting table of your own that reflects when you get spells?

-Breath Channeling: What the heck is a fundamentatum?

-Breath Channeling: What kind of spells can be channeled? What happens when you channel resist acid onto people? What happens with the material components and such? I know it's a headache to explain all this, but if you don't it doesn't work. I know what you've written makes sense in your head, but it has to make sense to someone other than you.

-Poor guy's senses don't scale

-Breath Powers look fun

-20th level War Dragon capstone could read better.

-Did I really just spend the last 8 levels of a 20-level dragon class just gaining more natural attacks? I feel like those attacks should have been granted when the dragon grew to larger sizes.


Response to Lord Gareth:

It's still relevant, though.

No it's not, that was my point.

What does the Gadacro care if he can't bull rush people? What does he care if they bull rush him?



It has to do with how the numbers flip down onto a build. Odd-numbered ability score bonuses have long been avoided in D20 systems (with the noted exception of Modern) and I'm not about to break the trend.

I know how it's supposed to work, and the even-numbered thing is something this project obviously ignores.



They can only poof the once; after that, they're vulnerable until their next turn rolls around. They still have to figure out not only where they're going, but whether or not this particular opponent is worth blowing their wad to get away from.

They only need to poof once, and the poofing isn't the issue. I LIKE the poofing. I just don't like that that it's designed specifically to give them an autopilot attack routine.

Let's go through this:

You move action in and full attack a likely-flatfooted target (You probably won initiative because that's your job as a PC who relies on sneak attack damage).

Target doesn't like this, goes to full attack you. You immediate action to a safe distance, and now he's stuck in place.

Option 1: Even if the GM is nice to him and lets him treat that first attack as a standard action, he can still only move to you. Furthermore you've probably got a partner you flank with, who can AoO this slob as he runs to you.

Option 1: He chooses to focus on your partner, who you merrily left there, and you're free to begin your routine anew next turn without any requirement.

Fact: Even if you don't have a partner, you're still fine.

You full attack him again. If he chose option 1 he'll be able to catch up with you next round. If he chose option 2 we go back to the top.

Now this is a very good attack routine. Multiple opponents don't matter and ranged opponents don't matter because they're going to be just as much of a problem either way. So while they give you a hard time, they were going to anyway, and therefore don't work as an argument. Actually due to the awesomeness of sudden escape, you actually have less of a problem with multiple opponents than every other melee class.

You don't have to think or try even a little. The only question you ever have to answer is "Am I going to use an awesome standard-action strike or just my full attack?"

I haven't even mentioned that eventually you stand a good chance of blinding the poor slobs you attack. They get destroyed if they get blinded by the way, it's one of the worst status conditions you can suffer. Even without sneak attack I had a group that made a habit of blinding our opponents, it allowed us to steamroll a lot of higher level encounters with a seriously sub-optimal party.

It could be argued that your Gadacro is the way melee classes should have worked from the start, because an in-out full attack routine that forces people to save versus crippling status conditions would have kept them competitive. I think it's an awesome attack routine, but since not even the monsters were given the courtesy of this kind of routine, it seems a little too awesome to have it from level 3 up. Making it a move action to get in is actually way BETTER than making it a swift action, which shows me it was precisely tailored to create the effect I'm describing. Since you can't even get a meaningful full attack for awhile, maybe delay it a little?



Besides, rogue isn't even a bad class. It's high tier 4, and while Factotum and Beguiler overshadow it, it's still a class capable of keeping up with what we try to balance for here. It could be stronger, but its still very workable, and doesn't require the DM making sure it's not obsoleted in the game. It also functions without much optimization, since a rogue can gain a lot of benefit just from clever use of skills, which hardly requires char-op.

I'm pretty sure a big part of its T4 status is UMD rather than sneak attack. It's not a horrible class, it's just not where I'd go after 3 levels of Gadacro.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-26, 01:52 PM
Black Dragon:
- 1.5 Str damage not 1,5. I've seen this come up a lot, is this a nationality thing? Apparently, it is. Here in finland, we use the "," for decimal numbers.

-His wings are "too weak to do anything for now?" Why not read through the Dragon Wings feat and give similar bonuses? Gave the ability to glide with the wings.

-Attribute Bonuses: +5 Strength and +5 Int by level 20? Why give them the bonuses at all if they're that low? Also Black Dragons tend to get more +Con than +Int, and you don't give them any even after they get draconic paths. Made the bonuses depend on path completely, and gave Con.

-Draconic paths once again give you the option of grabbing more Int, while having little to do with it. Further, they give no similar option for Con. The d12 is cool for getting hit points, but I'm left wondering why you're offering an Int bonus with next-to-no int-related abilities while you're making the guy huge size with no chance of withstanding the attention a huge opponent might get. See above.

-War Dragon
-Second paragraph of War Dragon path has him gaining "snkirmish" damage.Apparently, I missed one instance of that typo. It must have originated when I edited references to Sneak Attack to Skirmish.

-Instead of saying "he gains X at 1, 5, 9, 13, 17" why not just say "He gains a fighter bonus feat and +1 initiative every time he gains a Draconic Path power" etcetera etcetera. These things are 20 levels long, they need to be as easy on the eyes and as smooth to read as possible. Done.

-Dragon Camouflage is cool (Huge Dragon hiding in a room that's barely big enough to contain it is funny), although giving them Darkstalker for free feels silly somehow. Remember the guy has some feats of his own to invest. Dropped the feat. And I personally like the image the ability conveys.

-Holy &%"# It's a dragon! may have seemed like a good name at the time, I'm inclined to think you would've been fine calling it Frightful Presence with some bonus damage. It did not seem like a good name at the time. As noted in the comments, it's a placeholder name. I'm not calling it Frightful Presence because it isn't that.

-Caustic Essence... sucks. You give him massive hide bonuses at level 1, frightful presence plus bonus damage at level 5, and then out of nowhere... 1d6? 6/day breath weapon damage on a melee attack is neat I suppose... I was kinda worried about that. I have added more damage, and granted a +2 to the save DC of the breath weapon and breath powers at the same level.

-Hidden Dragon should have come at 9. See above.

-Scaring people immune to fear is cool. Scaring things incapable of fear is weird. It's level 17, so I suppose it should be goofy, but "goofy" is definitely the adjective that came to mind Yeah, in hindsight, that was not the smartest of moves. Removed the scaring mindless creatures thing.

-Dragon Mage
-What is "cast spells as a sorcerer with the spellcasting progression of a bard" when you list a different spellcasting progression on the table after? I know some people have a hard time understanding the virtual casting, but you've added to rather than alleviated this problem. Why not make a spellcasting table of your own that reflects when you get spells? It actually gains the full bard casting progression. Which really underlines how damn confusing it was. The table actually signifies how many sorcerer levels you get to "skip" when multiclassing to sorcerer. It's copypasta from Oslecamo, who devised the mechanic of gaining only the "new" slots gained from leveling from caster class level 4 to caster class level 5 for example. It's used to facilitate caster multiclassing not sucking.

-Breath Channeling: What the heck is a fundamentatum? It's the elemental organ thingy dragons have that facilitates their breath weapon. Dragon biology from Draconomicon.

-Breath Channeling: What kind of spells can be channeled? What happens when you channel resist acid onto people? What happens with the material components and such? I know it's a headache to explain all this, but if you don't it doesn't work. I know what you've written makes sense in your head, but it has to make sense to someone other than you. Clarified. The spell is cast normally in all ways except that ones detailed, and the breath weapon's effects are treated as taking place first, for when it matters.

-Poor guy's senses don't scale Blindsense scales now.

-Breath Powers look fun

-20th level War Dragon capstone could read better. Not sure how to clarify the wording.

-Did I really just spend the last 8 levels of a 20-level dragon class just gaining more natural attacks? I feel like those attacks should have been granted when the dragon grew to larger sizes. No. You were also gaining stat bonuses, SLA:s, Breath Powers and Path abilities. Also, a capstone. I grant them like that so as not to overtake the iterative attacks of other warrior classes.

Responses in blue.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-26, 02:02 PM
You should absolutely overtake the iterative attacks of other warrior classes. Those attacks are not good enough, so they are not a good standard by which to measure.

EDIT: I suppose we should specify which warrior classes when we discuss such things.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-26, 02:07 PM
Dropped claw attacks to level 5, and wing attacks to level 10.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-26, 03:53 PM
I'll wait for additional review before adjusting the Gadacro further.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-26, 04:59 PM
Frostwind Virago: You're missing the body ability from the table.
Also, whatever happened to multiclassing (Frostbite touch counting as eldritch blast and Frostwind Powers counting as invoking).
I like what you did with the fey of the court, and I also like the option to be unbound.
Frigid Demesnes: This ability is giving me an embolism. It has everything I hate in an ability. It's something that's going to be cropping up a lot, is clunky and hard to keep track of, requires a lot of rolling and numbers (roll fort saves for every party member and the 5 goblins you're fighting, then roll nonlethal damage for them all, which is kept track of separately from lethal damage, then oh, the temperature was reduced again, so it gets to be done again!), is possibly detrimental to party members, and then has barely any effect. 1d6 nonlethal damage. That's nothing.
Seriously. This ability has to die.
Moving on.
Kiss of the Frozen: Pretty cool, but I think it's a little overly complicated. You're keeping track of a lot of durations at once, and while interesting, it's not really worth it.
Embrace of the Frozen: Don't see why it gives a fear effect.
Frostbite Touch III: Well, it doesn't really effect the cold damage, as there's only 1 dice there. Also, how does this work in conjunction with forgoing charisma damage to deal an extra 1d6+str?
Ardour of the Frozen: For range, might as well just call it 300'. It'll initially be at 280', then max out the very next level.
Anyways, it's also a little... lame... I mean, it's a save-or-not-that-much-suck, and it's got all these tags on it that most enemies will be immune to anyways.
Faerie noble: Um... mirage arcana has a pretty low duration... so a court virago needs to be concentrating for just over a year to make it permanent?:smalleek:

Her Frozen Touch now deals 2d6 cold damage, with her Cha mod in nonlethal damage for every d6 of damage done.
Remove the nonlethal there?
One thing I've noted: most of the time a frostwind virago's powers are going to be a lot more viable than the touch. You should change that. Frostwind essences?:smallamused:
Also, might want to include a link to the frostwind powers post in the frostwind virago. Otherwise, it'd be a little odd for someone who goes to that post and can't find the powers on it.
Frostwind Powers:
Boreal Whirlwind:
Foes who attempt to enter the Whirlwind before it begins moving take the damage and are potentially disoriented, as though they had
Unfinished thought.
Capricious Winds: What of foes making ranged attacks? Also, can the Virago choose to send the foes flying?
Frozen Fabrication: What happens if someone tries to enchant one of these items? Also, might want to state that the item must be rigid- an ice rope?:smalleek:
Icicles: The attack roll is going to be very, very low. Like, very.
Manifest Ice: Wow, you took one of the most powerful 1st level spells and made it a lot bigger and more versatile. Seriously. A better option would be to start small (2 connected squares?) and scale up from there.

Seal of Ice covers a 5' square within for every HD of the Frostwind Virago.
Reword?
Seal of Ice: Just what spell effects does this thing do? Can one hit a summoned creature to banish it? How about effects currently active on a creature? If a party member is dazed by an orb of fire, can the frostwind virago hit their "spell effect" to end the dazing?

I'll finish up the invocations later.

Hyudra
2011-03-26, 06:04 PM
Thanks Gorgon. Will get to the fixes a little later. Look forward to the rest of the invocation reviews.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-27, 05:08 AM
I'll wait for additional review before adjusting the Gadacro further.

I'm going to change my line of argument to the one I should have started with:

Scavenger's Frenzy does absolutely nothing when it is gained.

You have no full attack. Your full attack looks exactly like your standard action attack. The earliest you can get a full attack that's different from your standard action is the level after you gain this (4th level), assuming you become a whirling frenzy barbarian or something similar.

If you don't do that, the next level up, 5th, is when wizards get haste, which is the next earliest time you could make this ability work.

Finally, if you take a full BAB class for the 4 levels following Gadacro, you will FINALLY have your own real full attack at level 7.

The capstone, as written, does nothing at all for 1-4 levels after you gain it.

We both know melee classes need pounce, but getting it at 3rd level is as pointless as gaining it at 1st level (Lion Totem Barbarian as your first level has no effect unless you also take the Whirling Frenzy variant, have natural weapons [atypical], or fight with two weapons [sucks at 1st level]).

I don't have a problem with the Gadacro having pounce (Melee classes DO need it), or even your much-more-awesome version of pounce (It IS awesome!). I don't even have a problem with his awesome dominant attack routine. I just think you're trying to solve too many problems for him too early. I've done the same thing with these classes.

You can set a scaling progression that activates after he finishes the 3rd Gadacro level, or you can just count on the player to know what they're doing, but giving him a purely mechanical advantage capstone that doesn't even do anything when he gains it is significantly worse than giving him a creative and fun ability that matters when he gets it.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-03-27, 01:51 PM
Gargoyle:
1. Allow for multiclassing with sudden strike, so that doing something like multiclassing to rogue would work, and with the strength/dexterity penalty.

2. Scale filthy talons a bit, eh.

3. Spellcheck, yo.

4. Deluge waterspout: It should do some damage before level 14. Otherwise, it's pretty useless until then- with a cone, they'll likely be moving only something like 10-15 feet tops, and with a line they'll always be moving just 5 feet. And that's it.

5.Petrification: currently doesn't do anything until 14 HD.

6.Diving charge: Ummm... so go 200-240 feet up and do an additional 20d6 damage. At 6 HD.:smalleek:

7. This also makes me realize that you don't have a listed base move speed.

8. Statuesque perfection: does this include improved chiseled armaments?

1. Sudden Strike dice stack as they normally do with Ambush Hunter, so I just added in SA dice to the penalty section (counting for half, because SA is generally stronger than Sudden Strike, and it gets some decent penalties up as it is).

2. Now scales as the others do, by taking them more times.

3. Fixed.

4. I... didn't mean for the line to do that, so it's now fixed. Added damage as suggested.

5.http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/ShyRangerSMRPG/Facehoof.jpg
Fixed.

6. Once per day until level 9, when you get a true fly speed. However, I have now that you take half of the bonus damage yourself, as well as a cap.

7. Added.

8. As part of the Chiseled Armaments list, yes it does include them (though they can't be taken more than once, unlike the standard members of the list, which is clear in their entry. Or so says I, looking over it).

Wow you guys moved fast without me.


Edit: I've started the Verdant Prince and I'm interested in the Holocaust Disciple (both MMIV), so those can go on the interest list, please.

The Antigamer
2011-03-27, 05:41 PM
Just posting a link to the Gray Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10610857&postcount=1401) changes I made in the last thread, so that they aren't overlooked with the new thread switch.

Just trying to get the Gray Jester finished up so I can move on to a new monster. I'm thinking I'll try my hand at the Satyr after this.

NosferatuZodd
2011-03-27, 06:18 PM
I know some may disagree. But shouldn't the pit fiend be re-done? It seems kinda sloppy and the amount of wishes per DAY it gets is pretty OP...

NineThePuma
2011-03-27, 06:25 PM
Oh, no, it should be.

Just, no one with the license to do it is interested. I might be, but not right now, given the fact that I'm going to be waiting for months to get my Half-Dragon and Thri-Kreen done. Both of which are complete on my end, I might add. Maybe. If I were being impatient.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-27, 06:33 PM
I know some may disagree. But shouldn't the pit fiend be re-done?

Possibly but level 20 classes are a nightmare and I think all the council members are working on their own pet projects right now.

I personally am working on the Silver Dragon and am not going to be in the mood for making another level 20 class afterwards unless I already said I'd do it like the hellfire wyrm.

NosferatuZodd
2011-03-27, 07:05 PM
Oh, no, it should be.

Just, no one with the license to do it is interested. I might be, but not right now, given the fact that I'm going to be waiting for months to get my Half-Dragon and Thri-Kreen done. Both of which are complete on my end, I might add. Maybe. If I were being impatient.

But it shouldn't, I don't think one use of wish per year as a spell-like should translate to, at level 20. 4 uses of wish per day. That's insane.

And the starting natural weapon damage is pretty strong for level 1 and a medium sized creature.


Possibly but level 20 classes are a nightmare and I think all the council members are working on their own pet projects right now.

I personally am working on the Silver Dragon and am not going to be in the mood for making another level 20 class afterwards unless I already said I'd do it like the hellfire wyrm.

Understandable.

NineThePuma
2011-03-27, 07:08 PM
But it shouldn't, I don't think one use of wish per year as a spell-like should translate to, at level 20. 4 uses of wish per day. That's insane.

And the starting natural weapon damage is pretty strong for level 1 and a medium sized creature.

I meant "It should be" as in "It should be redone"

NosferatuZodd
2011-03-27, 07:31 PM
I meant "It should be" as in "It should be redone"

Ahhhh, i'm sorry. :smallfrown:


Misunderstanding.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-27, 07:54 PM
I know some may disagree. But shouldn't the pit fiend be re-done? It seems kinda sloppy and the amount of wishes per DAY it gets is pretty OP...

Read the OP.


One caveat, though: due to different build guidelines, one should always note what thread and by what poster the monster came from. If it is from Improved Monster Classes or Improved Monster Classes II, or by a banned poster, it is likely of questionable balance and playability.
So, no. In fact, none will disagree. The Pit Fiend certainly should be redone. We just don't have the time to do so right now.

NosferatuZodd
2011-03-27, 08:07 PM
Ah, alright.

Thank you for clarifying, sorry for not noticing that in the OP :smalleek:

Gorgondantess
2011-03-27, 08:11 PM
Ah, alright.

Thank you for clarifying, sorry for not noticing that in the OP :smalleek:

We do put things up there for a reason, not just because we like to see our own writing.:smallwink:

Hyudra
2011-03-27, 08:21 PM
Just trying to get the Gray Jester finished up so I can move on to a new monster. I'm thinking I'll try my hand at the Satyr after this.

Just FYI and to assuage your worries, I'm working on a batch critique but I've been busy-ish with work as of late. The batch critique starts with Gray Jester and also does Grick, Garngrath, Brass Golem, Gorgondantess' Half Dragon, Gadacro and Black Dragon.


Oh, no, it should be.

Just, no one with the license to do it is interested. I might be, but not right now, given the fact that I'm going to be waiting for months to get my Half-Dragon and Thri-Kreen done. Both of which are complete on my end, I might add. Maybe. If I were being impatient.

Just a heads up that, due to my feelings about general attitude/disrespect/rudeness and/or the [unrepentant] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10614536#post10614536) violation of thread procedures for said monsters, they aren't going to be included in my batch critiques. I encourage you to seek your critiques elsewhere.

Should you get the Half Dragon to the 'finished' point, and get the requisite votes from us in the council I'll add it to the master list. The Thri-keen is something of a different case as you didn't run it by the council first and we don't want to establish a bad precedent, so it would have to be discussed with the other council members before we went ahead with adding it, even if it were brought to a finished state.


One caveat, though: due to different build guidelines, one should always note what thread and by what poster the monster came from. If it is from Improved Monster Classes or Improved Monster Classes II, or by a banned poster, it is likely of questionable balance and playability.

On that topic: One thing I was considering was using a table for the list[s] of finished monsters (not to the extent Nine proposed, but a table nonetheless) and having a column for quality. Monsters that were thoroughly vetted and deemed to be good quality would get a gold star. Monsters that weren't would get something else (possibly a silver or bronze star for decent & passable monsters and no star for Oslecamo-era creatures). An easy way to identify what is deemed playable and balanced.

NineThePuma
2011-03-27, 08:37 PM
Just a heads up that, due to my feelings about general attitude/disrespect/rudeness and/or the [unrepentant] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10614536#post10614536) violation of thread procedures for said monsters, they aren't going to be included in my batch critiques. I encourage you to seek your critiques elsewhere.

Should you get the Half Dragon to the 'finished' point, and get the requisite votes from us in the council I'll add it to the master list. The Thri-keen is something of a different case as you didn't run it by the council first and we don't want to establish a bad precedent, so it would have to be discussed with the other council members before we went ahead with adding it, even if it were brought to a finished state.

Well, in that case, I guess I'd better formally withdraw them and discontinue my participation with the project. :smallannoyed: Y'all have fun.

Hyudra
2011-03-27, 10:44 PM
Grey Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10051752&postcount=693)
I have this eerie sensation that I commented on some things that haven't been changed since.
Table formatting is wonky. Note weird spaces & how the numbers don't line up.
Ok, as is, it's very fragile. No armor proficiency, smallish HD, needs to get into melee to do his thing, and only has 1/2 cha to AC at low levels.
Hideous Laughter is hideously powerful. You are, on each hit, forcing a save or lose effect. Even without the feint option (which essentially guarantees your opponent will fail, with that bonus), you're still facing a pretty solid chance enemies will be taken out of combat for a number of rounds equal to your HD + .5 rounds to get up.
Too many uses on hideous laughter, too. Even at 1st level, you've got, what, 4 uses? Ok, there's some conservation there. Second level it's 8... and you probably don't need to worry about conserving uses thereafter. Perhaps a number of rounds equal to your Cha mod or your HD, whichever is higher?
Scrap the feint thing, I think. Assume that your typical opponent doesn't have wis as a primary stat, while you have cha as such. A foe with a good will save progression and okay wis is going to have a 50-50 chance to pass the save. Beyond the first few levels, though, even a foe with excellent wis and a good will save is probably going to fail the save with the feint bonus.
With each ability entry, state when it's gained. ie. At third level...
Replace your {table] tag with {table=head].
And if you do keep the feint, you need to describe how it works. It's not in the SRD (at least, a targeted google search turns up nothing meaningful) so you need to elaborate there.
15' reach for the rod is a bit much.
The 19HD benefit of scepter is going to get your party killed.
Under devour joy, state that they gain the bleak one template.
Joy Slaves and Devour Joy don't need to be two different abilities.
The idea of the template was to have the affected creatures be stripped of any game-breaking abilities. You don't want a beholder joy slave. That breaks games.
Misspelling: Afects. Please spell check your work.

Grick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10509720&postcount=1208)
Host the image yourself. You're linking to where the image is hosted on someone else's site and it's not loading reliably.
I'll state this: a lazy changelog makes for a hard critique on my end.
Magic Tentacles: Doesn't make a lot of sense. You need to clarify what the enhancement bonus is and to what it applies.
"it can use it's tentacles as primitive manipulators" - its.
"At level, first Grick has a bonus on Hide checks equal to 1/2 it's HD while underground or on stony terrain" - Trifecta: Underlined section is missing words. Bolded section is bad grammar, and red section is vague and unspecific.
At 2nd level, Grick gains DR/- equal to ½ its HD. - Missing word.
Scent: Iiiiinteresting. I'm not sure how useful or appropriate it is, but interesting nonetheless.
Masticate: Stats on bite?
You copy pasted the ability I suggested but didn't flesh out the ability mechanically with the necessary details. State that it gets the improved grab benefit when biting an opponent as a standard action. Reword sentences so they're a little tidier throughout?
"a Grick gains a bonus equal to half it's HD" - its.
Ability order in the monster entry does not match up with the order on the table.

Garngrath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10576259&postcount=1320)
Your 1st level in the table is borked. The 1 isn't centered.
You have no paragraphs. I don't mean that you have blocks of text, either. I mean you've got each sentence on a separate line... most of the time. This hurts my brain.
@ Divine Resistance: That's a lot of resistance. The bonus to saves comes across as very over the top as well... you're effectively resistant to over half the attack types in D&D.
Divine Mending: Ok, so you're getting a whole bunch of abilities that are really passive and really tanky. This is problematic because it's not that fun to play and it's not that effective. For more details on the 'passive' score, note the bit in the FAQ. You've ultimately gained no meaningful active abilities by level 4, nothing the player can choose to do besides the usual "I attack", "I full attack", "I attack", "I trip." You can fire a heat beam from your horn, but it's weak and it there isn't any tactical choice about whether to use it or not (you're just going to use it every turn as your swift action, unless you get another swift action from another class/item)
I don't like the amount of AC you're getting from resonance shield. Figure you're getting Con mod to AC (con with most levels in the class), you're wearing padded armor (AC check penalty 0) enchanted with the highest bonus you can get, and you're getting the standard AC bonuses... enemies won't really be able to hit you at all. That's not even getting into shenanigans. It's just a player's typical defensive choices.
Crystal horn levels 2, 3 and 6 have [center] tags where there should not be any.
I was willing to look past the Crystal Horn 1 ability as it was low damage and I initially read it as being single target. Recognizing now that it's a very large effect, and seeing the advancement of it, I admit to being rather concerned. You're essentially messing with the action economy by having repeatable (every turn, essentially), meaningful effects being thrown out over the battlefield.
Further, you've got an effect that's really bogging down gameplay. Figure that you're now (at sixth level) essentially rolling for the effect, aiming the effect, determining what foes are affected, each enemy gets a save, then you're recording the damage dealt, halved or not halved for each affected opponent, depending. That's on top of whatever you're doing with your standard and move actions.
Compare devastating roar to a dragon's firebreath. As good/better damage, larger area of effect, battlefield control. The only drawback being it hurts allies... which is not a good balancing point to be reaching for.
Resonance Distortion: I note we're continuing the tank trend. Thing is, tanks really suck unless you can force enemies to attack you. The Garngrath can't, so what you're going to wind up with is a creature that either attacks enemies or uses devastating roar every turn, his defenses ignored as enemies focus on his teammates. Then, when his teammates are dead or dying, he's going to get ganged up on & murdered. He doesn't really have a way to stop this, besides trying to kill enemies, so it's going to happen again and again.
Swallowing Charge: It's pretty darn powerful, given you're forcing grapple checks when you've already got a pretty monstrous grapple bonus (high str and huge size). The only enemies this isn't going to completely dominate are creatures that are as big/bigger than you and enemies with freedom of movement effects on them... who are going to be untouchable by this effect.
Crystal Horn 4: Poison Kills? What?

If you have to resort to algebra to figure out/display your monster's attack damage, you're going to run into problems. Trust me, I've been there.
More to the point: the math starts looking really ugly when you've got creatures and objects of multiple sizes stored within you.
My concern with destructive regurgitation is that the ability doesn't have a limiter. That is, if you find enemies/objects who you can keep in your belly indefinitely, store hundreds of them inside you, and unleash for 438d6 + 128d8 damage. Targets save for half damage, but that won't do them much good. Then you just scoop them all back up again to puke them out at a later date.
And, theoretically, do we really need to specify living enemies and objects? A medium creature does 1d8 damage on a regurgitation regardless of whether it's living or a corpse (object).
Crystal Horn 5: Petrify? Oh man, we've got a passable chance at an AoE save or die now. And you're not even using a standard action. This probably needs to be fixed.
Inescapable Maw: The freedom of movement effect comes too late in the campaign to be useful.

Brass Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10588318&postcount=1361)
At first level, creatures should get a Body ability. In this case, Brass Golem Body. Detailing the racial benefits.
In my last review, I missed the bit about magical fire because it's buried in the construct type benefits. As it isn't included in the generic benefits for being a construct monster class, I'd place it elsewhere, preferably in the same line that you detail the electricity vulnerability.
You have full BAB and innumerable strength bonuses. This is strictly warned against in the FAQ that is linked to in the front page. 3/4 BAB and Str bonuses to make up for loss of to-hit or full BAB and no/very minimal Str bonuses. Either/or. The former is probably a better fit here.
Also, constructs don't gain class skills.
Scent: We've been trying to spice up scent for various creatures, giving each a little benefit that makes its scent a little different from others with the same. Consider such?
You've got an ability named evolution on the table and an ability called adaptation in the text. Which is it?
Honestly, I wouldn't bother stating that the oily coating can only be removed with wish, limited wish or miracle.
Misleading: You refer to a labyrinth. I do not know what you refer to? It's just kinda out-there flavor text that doesn't have any precedent for someone not familiar with the base monster or your interpretation of it.
Made for the hunt: It's a little too easy to change your hunted target, essentially guaranteeing that you have double move speed (quadruple range charges?) and that you're forcing a save or suck effect on a hit. There's really no strategy or tactical thinking here, beyond designating whoever you're about to attack.
Ok, so at 5th level, you're really sort of lacking any active abilities. You're still stuck with very boring attack routines & maneuvers and there's not a lot there to spice it up. You've got tons of defenses, but like I said for the Garngrath, that's not that meaningful unless you've got a way to force enemies to attack you.
Hunter's Weapon: Not really that exciting. I mean, it's something you could get for what, 400g or less? And you're 5th level so you've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000 gp to fritter away.
Know thy Enemy: I don't know that I love that the Brass Golem is stunning enemies with melee hits at 6th level. Stun is a mean condition that forces enemies to miss 1.5 turns.
That is, assuming the stun lasts 1 turn. You don't give durations on the sicken or stun.
Maze is an 8th level spell that casters will have somewhere around 15th-16th level. You are getting it at 6th. 9-10 levels early. This is problematic.
Juggernaught charge: Just saying, but this is yet another passive ability. The only active ability thus far is maze, and that's rife with issues. The ability itself is fine, but I stress that it's a little boring.
Adaptation: Destructive Build - you mean with, not will.
Molten Core: needs to scale.
Play Theseus: What maze? The maze spell? That's not really a meaningful game location.
How do you define what a lair is? Can I say "This city is my lair" or "I am a wandering soul, this world is my lair?"
No will save on Maze? Are you mad, man!? Still 5-6 levels too early.
Insta-kill at level 10, for something that's a free action to set up. That's... a little much, I'm afraid.

Half Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10609763&postcount=1399)
In response to the question you asked: I think the 'ardent dilletante' bit isn't very elegant, but it makes a lot of sense and allows for a lot of options. I support this.
From the changelog, can't tell what's new and what's old, so leaving it at that for now.

Black Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10246297&postcount=148)
Forgive me, but it's long, so I'll get to it tomorrow, as early as is convenient.

Gadacro (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10634728&postcount=246)
Disable Device feels sort of out of place there. I can let that slide though.
I think you could get away with a melee attack that starts off a little less devastating (you have sneak attack to compensate for any lower damage) but has a bigger bonus at high levels.
Consider giving the Gadacro the choice of 3 languages, chosen from Abyssal, Celestial and Common. The latter being there to let it communicate with a group in a pinch, rather than having two not-always-picked options & communication difficulties with a party.
Sudden Escape: Consider a limiter. Uses per day or a 1d4 round recharge before it's usable again? If the latter, you could have the recharge decline as it gets higher level.
A period missing at the end of Demon.
Cripple Senses: I really like it. I'd say that after 6th level, there's no point to having a duration and it should last until the victim gets healed to full health by divine magic or attended to with a heal check, but that's just me. I also wouldn't mind a minor bonus to encourage a collection of eyes/ears/tongues. Like, you can gain a bonus to a single spot or listen or bluff check equal to the number of eyes/ears/tongues (depending on the check) you've collected from exp-worthy enemies, divided by five, in a given week. So 10 eyes = a +2 to a single spot check per week. Said organs rot away after a week, so there's a limit to how many you can acquire (or set a hard limit). Something relatively minor and flavorful that still encourages players to go about the collecting-the-facial-features game.
Binding Curse: I don't like save or suck effects as swift actions. Make it a standard?
Scavenger's Frenzy: Is ok, though the concerns raised about its delayed viability are of a concern. Why not just delete the ability and outline it as a part of the talon when you mention the ability in Gadacro Body?
All that aside, it's a really, really good early draft of a monster. It's closer to done than some monsters that have been in progress for weeks or months. Kudos.

Frog Dragon
2011-03-27, 11:21 PM
Black Dragon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10246297&postcount=148)
Forgive me, but it's long, so I'll get to it tomorrow, as early as is convenient.
Yeah. It was a... witch to make so it'll probably be one for the critic as well.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-27, 11:30 PM
Yay more review!

Alright Hyudra, my replies:

Binding Curse: Think we could compromise on move-equivalent? I mean, yes, you can't move, which blows, but on the other hand, you're not helpless, paralyzed, or even so much as denied the full use of your Dexterity.

Scavenger's Frenzy: Sure, why not. I'll figure out a way to make the talon scale as well, though they are gonna be stuck with it awhile if they wanna pounce.

Sudden Escape: 1d3 rounds sound fair?

Cripple Senses: I was actually considering something like this, but all my wordings sounded sloppy, and the ability is long as hell already. Good idea, though!

Thanks for the review; I'll make some changes after your reply.

Hyudra
2011-03-27, 11:43 PM
Yay more review!

Alright Hyudra, my replies:

Binding Curse: Think we could compromise on move-equivalent? I mean, yes, you can't move, which blows, but on the other hand, you're not helpless, paralyzed, or even so much as denied the full use of your Dexterity.

We could compromise on move equivalent. I just don't want a SoL as a swift. That's where I draw the line.


Sudden Escape: 1d3 rounds sound fair?

Fair enough. So you'd have 1d3 at 1st, then -1 to the recharge at say, 6th, 12th and 18th.


Cripple Senses: I was actually considering something like this, but all my wordings sounded sloppy, and the ability is long as hell already. Good idea, though!

*nod* It's hard to word.

One thing I just noticed and want to point out: State in the ability descriptions when the ability is gained - easier to do this now that we can be pretty sure we aren't going to be shuffling them around. At third level the Gadacro may... etc.

Once you've made the changes I'll give it my vote on the front page so Gorgon knows to review it.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-27, 11:50 PM
Alrighty, edits are forthcoming, then changelog updates. One thing I've noticed, though, is that a lot of our standardize abilities have odd and oftentimes awkward wording choices - you'll notice that the Body ability and Demon both got wording edits, and while I based reinforcements on Cornugon, it, too, got some changes. D&D has a sort of standardized grammar idiom that can make things a bit easier.

Alright, edited. Also, all the abilities already have which level they're gained at, I honestly don't know how you missed 'em.

Mystic Muse
2011-03-27, 11:51 PM
I honestly don't know how you missed 'em.

We all make mistakes sometimes. I've missed some really obvious things in D&D rules too.

Hyudra
2011-03-27, 11:55 PM
A lot of standardized abilities date back to the Bad Old Days. The person to talk to about redoing them would be Gorgondantess, and we could then push the reworded version thereafter.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-27, 11:55 PM
We all make mistakes sometimes. I've missed some really obvious things in D&D rules too.

I hadn't meant to sound patronizing, and Hyudra has my apologies if I did.

Hyudra
2011-03-28, 12:12 AM
Alright, edited. Also, all the abilities already have which level they're gained at, I honestly don't know how you missed 'em.

End of a long day with a lot of work, topped off by a batch critique, is all. My bad.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-28, 12:16 AM
End of a long day with a lot of work, topped off by a batch critique, is all. My bad.

Well, the changes have been made - I believe it's ready for the next step of review.

The Antigamer
2011-03-28, 12:35 AM
Thanks for the review Hyudra! Responses below.

Grey Jester (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10051752&postcount=693)
I have this eerie sensation that I commented on some things that haven't been changed since.
I don't think so, but it's entirely possible.


Table formatting is wonky. Note weird spaces & how the numbers don't line up.
Just fixed it, don't know why I didn't notice it before.


Ok, as is, it's very fragile. No armor proficiency, smallish HD, needs to get into melee to do his thing, and only has 1/2 cha to AC at low levels.
Should I add armor proficiency, or full cha to AC? Or some other protection?


Hideous Laughter is hideously powerful. You are, on each hit, forcing a save or lose effect. Even without the feint option (which essentially guarantees your opponent will fail, with that bonus), you're still facing a pretty solid chance enemies will be taken out of combat for a number of rounds equal to your HD + .5 rounds to get up.
That's what the Jester is about though... I'll take feinting out, that was a holdover from Oslecamo. What if I made a unique ability that mimics Hideous Laughter, but has a shorter duration? Or a scaling ability, that doesn't render someone completely helpless at first, but upgrades in stages, shaken and laughing, nauseated and laughing, prone and laughing, prone and unable to take actions and laughing, etc.?


Too many uses on hideous laughter, too. Even at 1st level, you've got, what, 4 uses? Ok, there's some conservation there. Second level it's 8... and you probably don't need to worry about conserving uses thereafter. Perhaps a number of rounds equal to your Cha mod or your HD, whichever is higher?
Hmmm, either that or maybe a cooldown period? Although, like I said, it is the Jester's main ability. And he needs the ability to make others laugh so that his other abilities can work.


Scrap the feint thing, I think. Assume that your typical opponent doesn't have wis as a primary stat, while you have cha as such. A foe with a good will save progression and okay wis is going to have a 50-50 chance to pass the save. Beyond the first few levels, though, even a foe with excellent wis and a good will save is probably going to fail the save with the feint bonus.
Will scrap it.


With each ability entry, state when it's gained. ie. At third level...
Will do right after I post this.


Replace your {table] tag with {table=head].
Fixed it when I fixed formatting.


And if you do keep the feint, you need to describe how it works. It's not in the SRD (at least, a targeted google search turns up nothing meaningful) so you need to elaborate there.
Feinting scrapped


15' reach for the rod is a bit much.
I'll remove it.


The 19HD benefit of scepter is going to get your party killed.
I'll remove it and move directly controlling two Bleak Ones to its spot.


Under devour joy, state that they gain the bleak one template.
Good point, thanks.


Joy Slaves and Devour Joy don't need to be two different abilities.
All right, should I have Devour Joy be 4th or 3rd level then? I think 4th, and add a new ability at 3rd.


The idea of the template was to have the affected creatures be stripped of any game-breaking abilities. You don't want a beholder joy slave. That breaks games.
Hmmm, good point, I think I was only considering humanoid races when I made the template. A quick note though, you can't get a beholder slave if you're of a level lower than the beholder's HD. So, should make it so that Bleak Ones cannot use Special Attacks (besides final drain) unless the Jester is directly controlling them? Or is that still overpowered?


Misspelling: Afects. Please spell check your work.
My bad, I typed the Bleak One template up on a cellphone.

Makiru
2011-03-28, 07:08 AM
Responses:

The crystal horn is supposed to be an effect similar to Prismatic Spray, so I assumed that it had a cone area, just like the spell. I realize that that is a bad thing now and will lower it back to a single target effect.

I have been trying to think of more active abilities to give it without taking away from the main points of the creature, it's just been slow going. This includes a "marking" ability to force actual combat interaction.

The question of AC and resistances has been a very strange one, seeing as I keep getting conflicting messages. Bloody said it was too weak, so I bumped it up. Now it's too strong, and if I lower it, I feel the cycle will repeat itself. I'll come back to this problem later.

The weird math on Destructive Regurgitation was the only way it sounded right in my head. The other way I could have taken it was to have all the objects in the gizzard be clumped together into one "mega object" and just have it do a base damage dependent on the collective size. Even that will be a confusing ability, though. I can't think of a way to implement it that wouldn't involve some semi-heavy math.

The formatting functions don't like me for some reason. I can try copy-pasting the class table into the guide in the FAQ, but that wouldn't solve the problems I'm having with the other tables within the class description.

The wonky text formatting is due to me using Notepad to write all my class descriptions. That's something that I can fix pretty easily.

Overall, it seems like I would need to put the garngrath through a complete overhaul to even get it to seem reasonable. I'm half considering abandoning it and just working on the kalabon instead. I think I need a lot more practice before I try and tackle an epic-level creature again.

Actually, go ahead and put the garngrath on the Abandoned List for now if somebody else wants to mess with it. I just don't think I'll be able to pull it off at my current level of homebrewing expertise.

Hyudra
2011-03-28, 07:47 AM
The question of AC and resistances has been a very strange one, seeing as I keep getting conflicting messages. Bloody said it was too weak, so I bumped it up. Now it's too strong, and if I lower it, I feel the cycle will repeat itself. I'll come back to this problem later.

See, I suspect you're going about it wrong. Let's say, theoretically, that you had a tank that "Takes 1 damage from every attack, ability or spell." If you don't have a way to force enemies to attack you, then what's going to happen is you're going to wind up the last man standing. That's not a good thing, though, if the two options are either having your allies be dead (in which case you're just carting them back to the nearest temple, and you've got to survive X random encounters on your lonesome) or you getting ganged up on & killed.

Said tank, who takes 1 damage from everything, is technically underpowered. The defensive ability is unquestionably overpowered though. So you get two conflicting messages from the person who is commenting on the overall class and the person commenting on the ability.

That's what I think may be happening.


The wonky text formatting is due to me using Notepad to write all my class descriptions. That's something that I can fix pretty easily.

I recommend activating 'word wrap' for said notepad class descriptions. It'll make stuff loop around to the next line without needing a hard return.


Overall, it seems like I would need to put the garngrath through a complete overhaul to even get it to seem reasonable. I'm half considering abandoning it and just working on the kalabon instead. I think I need a lot more practice before I try and tackle an epic-level creature again.

Actually, go ahead and put the garngrath on the Abandoned List for now if somebody else wants to mess with it. I just don't think I'll be able to pull it off at my current level of homebrewing expertise.

Well, it's ultimately up to you. I won't say it's unsalvageable, but at the same time, I wouldn't complain if we didn't have another epicish monster on the list to critique. That's just me - they're not my field of expertise, I don't find them fun, and they're a chore to do.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-28, 02:51 PM
When I made my comments about the Garngrath's AC I was looking at the whole class.

Let's see:

You can wear Bracers of Armor, which doesn't bring the headache of calculating armor costs for a growing boy.

The Garngrath's greatest source of AC will actually be natural armor, this is due to his constantly progressing Constitution modifier. Like armor bonuses, this AC does nothing against touch attacks. Assuming he starts out with 16 Con and focuses some WBL he'll end up with something like +15 natural armor at level 20.

The Deflection bonus is half his con mod, when I made my original comments it was 1/4th HD. So now he ends up with... +7? Assuming 40 con? That's the same amount we assumed for natural armor, so we assume the same one now.

Now with Bracers of Armor +8 you end up with about 40 AC at level 20...

...or you would if you didn't take -1 AC at level 4, -2 at level 8, -4 at level 12, and finally the total of -8 at level 16.

So he has 32 AC at level 20. Hardly impervious. When I made my comments it was 27 AC at level 20, which is just as pathetic as I suggested at the time.

Now let's assume level 10. He spends ALL HIS WBL on +7 bracers of armor (That's not optimal I confess, but I'm not going to work extra hard on this).

+10 base
+7 Armor (Bracers)
-2 Size
+7 Natural Armor (Con 16 + 8 from Gargrath)
+3 Deflection
and another +3 because I refused to optimize his equipment (maybe it comes from dex? Who cares?)

That's 28 AC at level 10. I'm not seeing the problem. You could go higher and I wouldn't see the problem. Also remember he's gotten the bulk of his AC already, it doesn't improve as fast from here.

My numbers may even be a bit low, but even if they are I'm not seeing this "unhittable" AC the Garngrath is going to be LOLing around in, he's a Colossal creature. They get hit.

The Deflection bonus from his Resonance shield mostly just keeps his touch AC from dropping all the way to base 2 (Which it would btw). He can get it back up with dex, but not by much.

I confess I ignored dexterity for most of this, because personally I'd be spending my efforts elsewhere. Never forget that the Garngrath has only 1 attack and a spell-like ability to which many enemies will be immune or resist against. He has other places to spend his resources. I also confess to not going through the class carefully a second time, I did it the first time.

As for his AC related to tanking, they're unrelated. If you want to keep enemies off your casters you have to have an offensive ability that forces them to deal with you, it has nothing to do with AC.

Hyudra
2011-03-28, 03:05 PM
When I made my comments about the Garngrath's AC I was looking at the whole class.

Let's see:

Light armor will cost 32x, so we aren't doing that.

I made the same error myself, when I first read into the armor size/nonhumanoid cost adjustments.

Magic armor modifies to fit the size of the wearer. So you're generally paying twice the base cost of the armor, with enhancements piled on after that. It's fairly negligible.

It ultimately depends how far your DM reads into "Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items."

My own interpretation is that you'd be able to wear magical padded armor that was crafted for you without problem and without it costing overmuch.

But even if you did have nonhumanoid padded armor for a gargantuan creature, it's only 80gp. That's pocket change at even mid level, for the ability to get enhancement bonuses to armor.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-28, 03:09 PM
I've swirled the contents of my post around with a special stirring spoon. Most of the stuff is in the same place. Darn thin spoons.

I'd still buy the bracers of armor rather than padded armor. +8 AC vs. +6 AC.

If you want the armor for its special qualities rather than flat bonus to AC, then it can be useful but not for high AC.

My point remains intact: His AC won't be that high.

Hyudra
2011-03-28, 04:02 PM
I've swirled the contents of my post around with a special stirring spoon. Most of the stuff is in the same place. Darn thin spoons.

I'd still buy the bracers of armor rather than padded armor. +8 AC vs. +6 AC.

If you want the armor for its special qualities rather than flat bonus to AC, then it can be useful but not for high AC.

My point remains intact: His AC won't be that high.

Higher than any monster class that isn't a golem or a tarrasque, and arguably to a problematic extent at early-mid levels. Keep in mind, it's coupled with DR, 20% miss chance, resistances and various immunities. Get armor proficiency from elsewhere or invest in a mithral chain shirt and you can get armor with an actual armor bonus. Grab an amulet of natural health and you're gaining a not inconsiderable bonus to fort saves, hp and AC.

I think it would be a much better, much more balanced monster overall if the defensive capabilities were toned down and if it got something more dynamic, strategic and useful to the group.

Bloody Initiate
2011-03-28, 04:49 PM
I think it would be a much better... if it got something more dynamic, strategic and useful to the group.

On this we agree. "Giant dude who attacks once per round" is not a big deal, and in fact can be completely cancelled out by certain abilities. It's why I originally suggested a bit more flexibility in the Roar ability, because that seems like the easiest candidate for upgrades that will make enemies deal with you before they go after your less-tough party members.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-28, 08:35 PM
Frostwind powers:
Lesser:
Cold snap... could you make 100 marbles fabricated from ice, put 'em in a 10 foot square, and then have hundreds of d6's of damage?
Yeah.
Also, I'd noticed it would cut down on text a lot if you just said "Frostwind Powers have a DC of 10+1/2 HD+Cha mod" under the actual frostwind powers description.
Frostflight: Pretty lame. At 18 HD it's still worse than a regular fly spell. Up the speed a little bit, eh?
Hailing Volley: The damage is pretty lame for something that's so damn unreliable.
Ice Sculpture: Summon Monster is good and all, but that's a little too punishing for my tastes. I think a better balancing mechanism would be to fatigue if she casts it again while the duration is still going. Also, do note that at higher levels pretty much the crowning greatness of the summon monster line is being able to summon outsiders.
Roaring Squall: "The Roaring Squall threatens the space around it as though it were a small creature"... For the purposes of attacks of opportunity, I'd add. Anyways, it should scale- either the size, the standard-action-moving, or both. Also, can the Frostwind Virago just move the guy into someone's square? Also also, I find it a little odd that a giant or titan or somesuch is going to be so easy to hurl around, and by something so small! Also, what's the duration? Can the Virago just lay one down, and it sits there indefinitely? Something to consider with a lot of these invocations.
Zephyr: A little lame, again. Such a small bonus.

Greater:
Bloodrime: I don't like it. It's pretty much worthless. Any enemy with high enough HP to make it worthwhile is going to always make the save.
Also, the fort save is redundant. You mention it twice.
Honestly? I think it would work if it were no save at all. Maybe an RTA?
Cryokinesis: No problems here. Maybe reduce the dexterity damage required though?
Mistral Attendant: Definitely not worth greater.

Will finish the rest later.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-28, 11:47 PM
Question: should I move on to the Sirine while I'm waiting for Gorgon's review?

Additionally, does anyone have a claim to redoing Marilith? If not, I have some ideas, though balancing them while remaining true to the monster will be...interesting.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-28, 11:49 PM
Question: should I move on to the Sirine while I'm waiting for Gorgon's review?

I'm going to say go ahead. I've glanced at it, and it should be going up really quickly.

Makiru
2011-03-29, 12:32 AM
I think for now, I'll put the garngrath on the sidelines. I'll come back to it later, hopefully with a fresh perspective, after doing the kalabon. I think I really need to do a few more classes before I feel up to the task of tackling that epic beast again. A single level class would be good for me and the rest of the thread at the moment. If anybody wants to pick up the garngrath in the interim, you have my good graces. I'll continue to mess with it when I get ideas, but if somebody else finishes it in a satisfactory way, I won't be sore about it.

tl;dr: doing smaller project for now. Crazy people can pick it up if they want.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-29, 12:41 AM
One thing that may help struggling folks is the following, which really helped me:

These guys are classes first. A lot of folks are getting hung up on the actual monster bit, but the question shouldn't be, "How do I turn this monster into a class?" but rather, "what class does this monster look like?". When I built the Gadacro, I went, "Hey, these are tiny flying rogues" and constructed them accordingly. If I'd tried to represent the Gadacro-as-written perfectly I'd still be messing with them and have gotten nowhere. Yes, these creatures are monsters and the class does also gain features that help replace race, but each creature can also be distilled into a single theme that makes up the cornerstone of the resulting class. Garngarath, for example, is a barbarian with LAZORS. Try approaching it from that angle and see what kinda progress you might make, hey?

Makiru
2011-03-29, 02:23 AM
One thing that may help struggling folks is the following, which really helped me:

These guys are classes first. A lot of folks are getting hung up on the actual monster bit, but the question shouldn't be, "How do I turn this monster into a class?" but rather, "what class does this monster look like?". When I built the Gadacro, I went, "Hey, these are tiny flying rogues" and constructed them accordingly. If I'd tried to represent the Gadacro-as-written perfectly I'd still be messing with them and have gotten nowhere. Yes, these creatures are monsters and the class does also gain features that help replace race, but each creature can also be distilled into a single theme that makes up the cornerstone of the resulting class. Garngarath, for example, is a barbarian with LAZORS. Try approaching it from that angle and see what kinda progress you might make, hey?

This would work better for me if I wasn't so bad creatively. I've always worked better with a predefined structure, and thinking beyond already established content has never worked out too well. My first three monsters (Rukanyr, Roving Mauler, and Solamith) were all much easier for me since they had a lot more active abilities on the original monster that I didn't have to make up. Mind you, I still did make up a few (Foreign Soulfire comes to mind), but it was kicking and screaming for the most part.

Like I said before, I think I just need to take a break from it and come back fresh. Inspiration usually strikes when you're not thinking about the project.

I appreciate the advice, Gareth, but I just feel I need to shift gears away from this particular monster at the moment.

Hyudra
2011-03-29, 07:42 AM
One thing that may help struggling folks is the following, which really helped me:

These guys are classes first. A lot of folks are getting hung up on the actual monster bit, but the question shouldn't be, "How do I turn this monster into a class?" but rather, "what class does this monster look like?". When I built the Gadacro, I went, "Hey, these are tiny flying rogues" and constructed them accordingly. If I'd tried to represent the Gadacro-as-written perfectly I'd still be messing with them and have gotten nowhere. Yes, these creatures are monsters and the class does also gain features that help replace race, but each creature can also be distilled into a single theme that makes up the cornerstone of the resulting class. Garngarath, for example, is a barbarian with LAZORS. Try approaching it from that angle and see what kinda progress you might make, hey?

For the most part this is true. That said, it can be problematic if everyone takes that route, and we wind up retreading old ground creatively, or staying too close to the original classes & not winding up with anything newish to play.

It is a good idea to look at a monster & figure out what class is the closest match & use that as a starting point for attack progression, ability types, role, saves, skills, etc. Then you can steadily make as many changes towards the flavor and style of the monster as you can while keeping the role intact.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-29, 11:44 AM
Due to a lack of MMII (CUUUUUUUUUUURSES!) I will be working on Illurien next. I'm also officially expressing interest in Marilith.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-03-29, 02:59 PM
I've already mentioned it now (twice for the Verdant Prince), but I think it's been missed. I am Interested in the Verdant Prince and holocaust Disciple, both in MMIV. Sorry if it hasn't been missed, but it's not on the list yet.

Hyudra
2011-03-29, 03:21 PM
Added to interest list.

Zemro
2011-03-29, 06:51 PM
So, after returning from being taken temporarily out of commission by a few things, I have finished a round of changes to the Justice Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10474880&postcount=941) and have reposted the changelog below.

March 24th
Changed looses to loses in the body ability.
Wording corrections made to the portion of Quarry devoted to located her target.
March 29th
Small tweaks made to Eyes of the Judge to further clarify its intent.
Archon's Wards now grants Spell Resistance, just like the base monster has.
Shared Fate replaced with a new ability: Retributive Fate.
Retributive Fate temporarily increases her defenses and allows her to sacrifice the bonus to reflect an attack back.

I'm also looking at offering some comments and making critiques again, so if you've actively developing a mid-length monster (At most about ten levels) let me know and I'll take a look. Don't ask if you're actively making changes though, I don't want to end up commenting on something you've already decided to change.

Additionally, if it would be acceptable to do so I'd like to post my Dwarf Ancestor redux, since the Justice Archon is close to finished. I've made good progress with the Hound Archon as well, but upon reviewing it after some time away I've noticed quite a few changes to make.

Hyudra
2011-03-29, 07:36 PM
I do believe you're nearly done, so go ahead with posting that Dwarf Ancestor.

Zemro
2011-03-29, 07:48 PM
Dwarf Ancestor (MMIV Pg 52)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c372/Zemro-Shivic/dwarfancestor.jpg

Class
Hit Die d10

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int Mod) x4
Skill Points at each additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Class Skills: The Dwarf Ancestor's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (The Planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str).

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Abilities|Ability Boosts
1|+0|+2|+0|+0|Ancestor's Body, Ancestral Spirit, Ancient's Path|+1 Str
2|+1|+3|+0|+0|Blink Out, Strength of Stone|
3|+2|+3|+1|+1|Ancestral Presence, Even the Odds|+1 Con
4|+3|+4|+1|+1|Dwarven Tactics, Mighty Charge|+1 Str
5|+3|+4|+1|+1|Growth, Incorporeal Fortitude|
6|+4|+5|+2|+2|Ancestral Champion, Battle Ready|+1 Con[/table]

Dwarven Ancestors are proficient with all simple weapons and with light and one-handed martial weapons, with light and medium armour, with light shields, and with any weapon with Dwarf or Dwarven in its name.

Ancestor's Body: A Dwarf Ancestor loses all other racial characteristics and becomes an Outsider with the following traits:
The (Native) subtype: Unlike other outsiders a Dwarf Ancestor is native to the material plane and can be raised and resurrected as normal. He also requires to eat and sleep like a normal creature.
Medium Size
Base Land Speed: 20ft, A Dwarf Ancestor does not suffer penalties to speed for wearing medium or heavy armour, or carrying a medium or heavy load.
Natural Armour bonus equal to its Constitution Modifier
Stability: Like the dwarves they come from, Dwarven Ancestors are steady on their feet, gaining a +4 bonus against being bull-rushed or tripped while standing on the ground.
Immunity to poison
Dwarven Ancestry: A dwarf ancestor is a dwarf, qualifying for feats and classes and other various effects just like his humanoid brethren.
Starting Languages: Dwarven and Common, plus one per point of Int bonus.

Ability Boosts: A Dwarf Ancestor is strong and tough like his kin, he receives a +1 bonus to Strength at first and fourth level and a +1 bonus to Constitution at third and sixth. This totals +2 Strength and +2 Constitution at sixth level.

Ancestral Spirit (Su): A Dwarf Ancestor embodies the strength and glory of all those who came before him, and this quality inspires and bolsters nearby allies. This ancestral spirit grants any allies within 30ft a +1 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls. Allies without line of sight to the dwarf ancestor do not benefit from this bonus, even while within range of the aura.

At 4HD and with every 4 additional HD this bonus increases by +1 and the range by 5ft, to +6 and 60ft at 20HD.

Ancient's Path (Ex): Dwarven Ancestors are defined by their ability to protect their allies or destroy their enemies. Upon taking the first level of this class they choose one of the following paths which will dictate the effects of some of their later class features. Once made this choice cannot be changed except by a wish or miracle spell.

Path of the Destroyer: Ancestors on the path of the destroyer learn to strike with blows that shatter stone. They gain proficiency in all two-handed martial weapons and levels in the Dwarf Ancestor Class provide full BAB.

Path of the Protector: Ancestors on the path of the protector learn how to withstand attacks like the stone they resemble. They gain proficiency in heavy armour, heavy shields and tower shields. Additionally levels in the Dwarf Ancestor Class also provide good Will saves.
Blink Out (Su): A Dwarf Ancestor's connection to the material plane is not as permanent as it appears, those of second level have learned how to temporarily sever that connection. As a free action the Dwarf Ancestor can become incorporeal until the beginning of his next turn. This action doesn't provoke an Attack of Opportunity and can be performed a number of times per day equal to the Ancestor's Hit Dice.

Strength of Stone (Ex): At second level Dwarven Ancestors take on more of the characteristics of the stone they resemble, gaining DR/adamantine equal to half their HD. Additionally they gain the following benefit depending on their path:

Destroyer: The melee attacks of a destroyer ancestor ignore a number of points of damage reduction and hardness equal to their constitution modifier.

Protector: Protector ancestors gain the mettle ability. If they make a successful Will or Fortitude save against an attack that would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with an entry of Will half or Fortitude partial) it is instead completely negated.
Ancestral Presence (Su): At third level the bolstering Ancestral spirit of a Dwarf Ancestor changes to reflect more on it's chosen path.

Destroyer: Allies double the bonus received from Ancestral Spirit to damage when making charge attacks, and the bonus to damage from the aura ignores DR.

Protector: The Aura of an Ancestor on the path of protection is more powerful than that of one who is not. The Dwarf Ancestor himself now also receives the benefits of his aura, and the aura's bonus also applies to saves against spells and spell-like effects. Additionally, allies no longer require line of sight to the Ancestor to receive the aura benefits.
Even the Odds: Ancestor's of third level have learned to adopt tricks and tactics to better suit fights against multiple opponents.

Destroyer (Ex): As a standard action action an ancestor on the path of the destroyer may make a single devastating attack against an enemy within reach. If it hits it deals damage as normal and all enemies adjacent to the target must make a reflex save (DC 10 + HD/2 + Str Mod) or suffer damage as the target, with a successful save reducing the result by half. If there are no enemies adjacent to the target it is staggered until the end of its next turn on a successful hit.

At 11HD the Ancestor can use this ability twice as a standard action, targets that are staggered by the first hit take 50% extra damage from the second.

Protector (Su): Ancestors on the path of the protector can do more with their aura than just increase combat potential. As a standard action they may forcibly discharge the power of their aura, releasing a shockwave upon their enemies. Enemies within the ancestor's aura must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + HD/2 + Twice Aura Bonus) or be knocked back outside the aura's range, landing prone (or falling to the ground in the case of a flying creature) and taking 1d6 points of damage per 5ft traveled. Walls and similarly solid objects stop the movements of targets effected by this ability, they land prone beside the object and take damage for the distance actually traveled. On a successful save enemies are not knocked back or prone, but still suffer the damage from the force of the discharge. At his discretion, unattended objects smaller than the ancestor may also be affected with this ability.

After using this ability the ancestor's aura deactivates for 1d4 rounds, during which this ability cannot be used again. At 11HD the aura's bonus is instead reduced to half (rounded down) during this period, though the ability still cannot be used until the aura returns to full power.

Dwarven Tactics (Ex): Dwarves have long and proud traditions of fighting within their underground homes, and at fourth level the Ancestor leans to adapt those techniques for common use. If an opponent is between the dwarf ancestor and a wall (or similarly solid and large object), the ancestor is considered to be flanking him. The ancestor can also use walls to shore up hole in his own defences, letting him better react to active opponents. While adjacent to a wall (or similarly solid and large object) the ancestor cannot be flanked.

Mighty Charge: At fourth level the Ancestor grows more adept at charging, treating his speed as 10ft higher for the purposes of determining movement during a charge. He also gains an additional ability depending on his chosen path:
Destroyer (Su): Ancestors upon the Path of the destroyer can choose to spend a use of their Blink Out ability as part of a charge action. If so they become incorporeal during the movement portion of the charge, instead of Blink Out's normal effects. Among other things this allows the to ignore difficult terrain and obstacles while charging, and they can choose to move through the air with a fly speed equal to half their base land speed (perfect maneuverability). If the Ancestor possess a fly speed of their own, they can choose to use that speed instead. The Ancestor does not need to end his charge on solid ground, and can be either material or corporeal for the attack(s) he's entitled to. In either case, he falls back to the ground after the attacks are resolved.

Protector (Ex): With a large shield and heavy armour, a Protector Ancestor can muscle his way through many obstacles on a battlefield. He does not take the standard -2 AC penalty when charging, and so long as the first ten feet of his charge are unobstructed can continue charging through difficult terrain. At the end of his charge he can turn his momentum into extra damage on his first attack (gaining +1 to damage for every 50lbs the ancestor and his gear weighs) or into a mighty force (gaining the same bonus on a bull rush, and the ancestor does not need to move with his opponent).

Growth: At fifth level the Dwarf Ancestor literally grows into power, increasing his size to large (tall) and his base land speed by +10ft. Its AC, bonus to hit, grapple and skills change accordingly, but doesn't get any particular ability score bonus or penalties.

Incorporeal Fortitude (Su): At fifth level, the Dwarf Ancestor's toughness is almost supernatural, even benefiting him while incorporeal. Whenever incorporeal, either via his Blink Out ability or other means he can use his constitution modifier in place of his charisma, to determine the deflection bonus, and his dexterity, to determine his melee attack bonus and damage.

Ancestral Champion (Ex): At sixth level the Dwarf Ancestor fully embodies the virtues and role of their chosen path.
Destroyer: At the pinnacle of the path of the destroyer the dwarf ancestor strikes like an avalanche. When striking with a weapon held in both hands the ancestor adds twice his strength modifier to damage instead of 1.5 times.

Additionally he can choose to forfeit any attacks at the end of his charge, and instead use his Even the Odds ability (or use it twice at 11HD). If he chooses to do so the added momentum behind his strikes from the charge is devastating enough to turn the target's square and adjacent ones into difficult terrain.

Protector: The path of the protector leaves an ancestor a mighty bastion, like a mountain of dwarven steel. He may add his shield bonus to his touch AC, and to his reflex save and the reflex saves of allies within his reach.

Objects capable of stopping the movement of his Even the Odds ability also undergo risk when they do so. When an enemy who failed their save against Even the Odds impacts an object, the object takes twice the damage sustained by creature ignoring any possessed hardness. If this damage would be sufficient to break the object it does so and the creature takes an additional 2d6 points of damage and continues traveling backwards until they reach the maximum distance of the ability.

Battle Ready (Su): Already a champion of their chosen path, a Dwarf Ancestor of sixth level is always ready to fight when battle finds him. By taking five minutes the Ancestor may bond himself to a single set of equipment that he has used in battle within the last 24 hours. Any time afterward he may take an immediate action to summon the equipment from wherever it rests, and it appears equipped on his person. Unlike normal immediate actions he may use this ability when flat-footed, allowing him to call his arms and armour even if surprised by an ambush.

Changelog
March 29th
Originally Posted
March 31st
Made some spelling and grammar corrections

Comments
I really feel like I was inspired by some of Hyudra's work here, with the separate paths and such for the monster. And overall I believe it ended up quite different from the abandoned version of the Dwarf Ancestor class. I don't think that's much of a bad thing either, as I think the class provides two neat sets of ability paths for a player, and either should serve them well in combat. With each path ability I tried to keep them somewhat the same in essence, an AoE ability with an AoE ability for example. But in either case I wanted the Protector path to do more with their aura and the Destroyer path to do more with Blink Out.

It was hard work trying to make the paths more or less equal overall, balancing Full BAB against 3/4 BAB by letter the latter benefit from their aura for instance. The destroyer should win out for melee damage, and just hammer down targets easier than the protector. On the flip side the protector and his allies should have more staying power from the aura. There was an earlier draft that provided more boosts to the aura, but that ended up feeling too passive so I replaced abilities there to give them more active options.

It's kinda weird how I sat down to take this monster up, I'd seen it in the Monster Manual before but didn't have much of an inclination to do it. But after offering comments and suggestions on the previous version and seeing it abandoned I eventually felt like picking it up. In that case perhaps I should thank Chambers for making something that inspired me to finish it after he left it abandoned. There are still some thematic similarities, but I have completely dispenses with the very construct-esk armour bonus. I hope to stick close to the base monster's ability suite by building on already possessed abilities, though some active abilities are quite different.

Overall I'm happy with the feel of the 'finished' product, even though finishing off someone else's work does come with a certain amount of trepidation.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-29, 08:08 PM
Frostwind Powers cont'd:
Snowdrift: "Moving 5' through the snowdrift requires a against a DC of 15 + ½ the Frostwind Virago's HD + the Frostwind Virago's Cha mod"
A what?
Otherwise, looks pretty cool!
Snowflurry Step: It would be impossible to go 100', even if it were all snow. That'd end up with a 100% chance of failure. I'd remove the failure chance entirely in snowy areas.

Avalanche:
I think it would work better to draw a line from the snow than from the enemy... but just in general, that has to be reworded.
Also: by this point, everything should be flying. Those that aren't are going to be things like the tarrasque. I think it'd be better as a greater.
Crack the Ice:
"up to 10' long and 5' wide for every point of the Frostwind Virago's Wis mod"
This for a creature that'll likely have 14 wisdom, tops, if not something like 8. And, again, everything's going to be flying. You could have it a save or die and it'd still be pretty weak. Also, you're not including anything for the colossal sized creature on any of the options that likely wouldn't have anything at all happening to them. The damage is pretty weak on the 2nd option. I mean, an unoptimized kineticist will likely be doing 100+ damage to 5 separate creatures every round. To put that into perspective, that's 30d6.
Mindnumbing aura: Interesting. Probably potent if you increase the range, but as is most battles will start far beyond 30', and remember that at this level 3 rounds is a long battle.
North Wind: Very cool. Townslayer.

Start comparing elite powers to 8th & 9th level spells. They should be competitive. As is? Hardly. A lot of these are like AoE bands of steel, but with the added caveat of snow and being on the ground (which is just a dealbreaker). Bands of steel is a 3rd level spell. Here's an example of what I, personally, think elite powers should be like:
Hands of snow: The Virago manifests giant hands of snow to lunge into the air, grab enemies and then suck them down into the icy depths. Any enemies within 200' of a patch of snow or ice within 100' of the Virago must make a reflex save or be grabbed by a hand, which pulls them down into the ice. (Insert effects from being submerged by the avalanche here, and kick them up a notch, and maybe make it harder to escape.)
Remember, by this level you have large radius AoE save or dies and they're considered crap.

Gadacro:
Talon: you're technically supposed to round up with HD. I'd just say it increases to 19-20 at 3 HD and 18-10 at 8 HD, or something like that. Maybe then 17-20 at 15 HD.
Uses of sudden escape: reduce rolling and just call it 3-2-1, eh?
"as well as Damage Reduction X/Lawful or Good, where X is equal to one-half his hit dice."
As well as DR/Lawful or Good equal to 1/2 HD.
What Summon Monster are Gadacros under? Also, scale the uses.
Otherwise, looks good.

Makiru
2011-03-29, 08:49 PM
Kalabon
http://i52.tinypic.com/2w36byf.jpg
Monster Class
Fiendish Codex II

Class

HD: d6

{table=head]Lvl|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Abilities


1st|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+0|
Kalabon Body, Colony Growth, Breakdown, +1 Con[/table]

Skill Points: 6 + Int mod (x4 at 1st level)

Class Skills: Climb(Str), Hide(Dex), Listen(Wis), Move Silently(Dex), and Spot(Wis)

Proficiencies: The kalabon is proficient with its natural weapons. It is not proficient with armor or shields.

Kalabon Body: You lose all racial traits and become a Small Outsider with the (Lawful) and (Evil) subtypes. You gain darkvision out to 60 feet and light vulnerability. The kalabon gains a single tentacle attack that deals 1d4 + Str mod damage, plus 1d3 acid. It has a move speed of 30 feet and a natural armor bonus equal to its Constitution modifier. Kalabon start out speaking Infernal and have telepathy with a range of 10 feet/HD.

Ability Modifiers: The kalabon gains a +1 bonus to Constitution

Colony Growth(Ex): As an ambulatory hunk of tumorous flesh, gaining Hit Die for a kalabon is a very different affair than for most other beings. Every time the kalabon gains a Hit Die, it grows a new mass on its body which can become a fully functioning kalabon (see Breakdown, below). This gives it several benefits as it levels up.

At 2 HD, it gains resistance to cold and acid damage equal to 1/2 its HD.

At 3 HD, it gains fast healing equal to 1/2 its HD.

At 4 HD, it grows to Medium size and gains an extra tentacle attack. Damage for the tentacles and acid go up one die.

At 8 HD, it grows to Large size and gains an extra tentacle attack. Damage for the tentacles and acid go up one die.

At 16 HD, it grows to Huge size and gains an extra tentacle attack. Damage for the tentacles and acid go up one die.

In addition, the kalabon gains a +1 inherent bonus to attack rolls with its tentacles for every 2 HD it possesses.

Breakdown(Ex): As a standard action, a kalabon can burst into a number of 1 HD Small kalabon equal to its HD, filling the space of the original kalabon and as many adjacent squares as needed. Divide it's current HP evenly by the number of new kalabon, rounding down, to get each individual's HP. All kalabon act on the same initiative, but are limited to a single move or standard action each. Piling back together is a bit harder than falling apart and takes a full-round action. Damage taken by individual kalabon is subtracted from the total HP of the combined creature. Kalabon created this way are considered dead at 0 HP and dissolve into a puddle of goo. A kalabon cannot split apart unless it is above 1/2 its max HP value.

A 1 HD kalabon can split into two kalabon with this ability, but kalabon formed using Breakdown cannot.

Changelog
March 29: originally posted

Comments
As I mentioned before, I felt inspired by Hyudra's Goblins experiment and wanted to try and implement some of those ideas in a way that felt more suited to the monster, and the kalabon was a perfect fit. I understand that Breakdown, as of the time of writing this, is somewhat vaguely worded and does not account for a lot of corner cases. It would probably be a few weeks of work for me to find all those cases, and then the ability would be so long that it would be essentially unwieldy. That was part of the rational with making it only 1HD kalabon, so that no later features from other classes (IE: spellcasting) wouldn't muck things up. Overall, I feel pretty satisfied with how it turned out, retaining the flavor of the original monster while still being its own separate thing.

Hyudra
2011-03-29, 08:56 PM
Don't spoiler images. Do yourself & everyone a favor and please go to the first post & click the link to the FAQ. There's a bit there on images and how to resize them.

Makiru
2011-03-29, 09:02 PM
Blar. Fixed, I think. Still seems kinda big to me, though.

Hyudra
2011-03-29, 09:04 PM
It's biggish. Not problematic.

If you feel you must, you can use the same method and choose the next smallest option.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-30, 11:47 AM
Brass Golem
At first level, creatures should get a Body ability. In this case, Brass Golem Body. Detailing the racial benefits.
Alright, I'll rename it :smallsmile:
In my last review, I missed the bit about magical fire because it's buried in the construct type benefits. As it isn't included in the generic benefits for being a construct monster class, I'd place it elsewhere, preferably in the same line that you detail the electricity vulnerability.
Will move it.
You have full BAB and innumerable strength bonuses. This is strictly warned against in the FAQ that is linked to in the front page. 3/4 BAB and Str bonuses to make up for loss of to-hit or full BAB and no/very minimal Str bonuses. Either/or. The former is probably a better fit here.
Think that might be a typo on my part, frankly. Will change it to 3/4 BAB.
Also, constructs don't gain class skills.
Surely there are exceptions when it fits their purpose? Brass Golems are made for hunting, so they need Survival to actually use Track.
Scent: We've been trying to spice up scent for various creatures, giving each a little benefit that makes its scent a little different from others with the same. Consider such?
I will think. Any suggestions what to do?
You've got an ability named evolution on the table and an ability called adaptation in the text. Which is it?
Adaptation, I'll change that.
Honestly, I wouldn't bother stating that the oily coating can only be removed with wish, limited wish or miracle.
Alright.
Misleading: You refer to a labyrinth. I do not know what you refer to? It's just kinda out-there flavor text that doesn't have any precedent for someone not familiar with the base monster or your interpretation of it.
Ok. The class does kinda build up to the Maze ability though.
Made for the hunt: It's a little too easy to change your hunted target, essentially guaranteeing that you have double move speed (quadruple range charges?) and that you're forcing a save or suck effect on a hit. There's really no strategy or tactical thinking here, beyond designating whoever you're about to attack.
Say you can only change it during an encounter when your previous target is dead?
Ok, so at 5th level, you're really sort of lacking any active abilities. You're still stuck with very boring attack routines & maneuvers and there's not a lot there to spice it up. You've got tons of defenses, but like I said for the Garngrath, that's not that meaningful unless you've got a way to force enemies to attack you.
Right, need more abilities. Will consider.
Hunter's Weapon: Not really that exciting. I mean, it's something you could get for what, 400g or less? And you're 5th level so you've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 5,000 gp to fritter away.
Move the ability to low level then, you reckon?
Know thy Enemy: I don't know that I love that the Brass Golem is stunning enemies with melee hits at 6th level. Stun is a mean condition that forces enemies to miss 1.5 turns.
That is, assuming the stun lasts 1 turn. You don't give durations on the sicken or stun.
I will add a 1-turn duration. I can replace it with a weaker condition, I guess.
Maze is an 8th level spell that casters will have somewhere around 15th-16th level. You are getting it at 6th. 9-10 levels early. This is problematic.
I said this in my original comments, and was amazed (no pun intended) that no one has ever picked up on it before. My problem is it's kinda the signature ability and I don't know how to water it down too much. The save does at least lower it from the 8th level spell's "be useless no matter what" to about the level of, say, Suggestion, which can incapacitate an enemy for an entire round. Albeit that is Mind-Affecting etc.
Juggernaught charge: Just saying, but this is yet another passive ability. The only active ability thus far is maze, and that's rife with issues. The ability itself is fine, but I stress that it's a little boring.

Adaptation: Destructive Build - you mean with, not will.
Will correct.
Molten Core: needs to scale.
Using the Horrid Monster's acid damage progression for that, then.
Play Theseus: What maze? The maze spell? That's not really a meaningful game location.
The Maze is an extradimensional labyrinth. It's there, albeit it's not normally statted out. The Brass Golem monster can also freely enter that Maze with no explanation, so I assumed a DM would simply run with it.
How do you define what a lair is? Can I say "This city is my lair" or "I am a wandering soul, this world is my lair?"
The lair is just a synonym for the maze. I will replace that.
No will save on Maze? Are you mad, man!? Still 5-6 levels too early.
No maze gets a save, although you are right in that this is being delivered too early. Will make the save harder, then remove the save at 16 HD.
Insta-kill at level 10, for something that's a free action to set up. That's... a little much, I'm afraid.
Will replace with Stun from 6th level, and have scale to kill at 15 HD (its equivalent to Finger of Death, after all).

Bolding replies.

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-30, 12:13 PM
Gadacro is ready to go on the list, I believe; edits have been made according to Gorgon's suggestions.

Hyudra
2011-03-30, 04:03 PM
Gadacro is ready to go on the list, I believe; edits have been made according to Gorgon's suggestions.

Waiting for Gorgon's final confirmation. There's a few monsters that are waiting in such a way. I look forward to the time he can look those over & give the thumbs up.

Gorgondantess
2011-03-30, 07:17 PM
For the Gadacro, state that the crit threat increase comes before & stacks with effects like keen. Once that's done, it gets the Gorgondantess Stamp of ApprovalTM.:smallbiggrin:

Lord_Gareth
2011-03-31, 11:25 AM
It is done!

Is this some kind of record for fastest completion of an acceptable class?

Hyudra
2011-03-31, 11:26 AM
No, but it's close, compared to many that've been put up since we formed the council.

Cogidubnus
2011-03-31, 02:36 PM
I have now changed the Brass Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10588318#post10588318) again, including adding the all new Continued Adaptation to give some more active abilities.

Saidoro
2011-03-31, 03:07 PM
Razor Boar

DC should be capitalized. Consider submitting it to Psyborg, our dear homonculus, for stuff like that in general. Now capitalized.
Other than that, on wrench... what happens when a colossal red dragon bites the boar and gets stuck? Or any other colossal sized creature. Can it really take NO actions other than trying to get free? What if the boar wants to move? I'll put on a size restriction.
Other than that, I think it looks good, but wrench certainly could use some polishing.



Razor Boar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10227868&postcount=139)
Don't love the piles of energy resistance, personally. Would it be better if it was only to the 5 most common energy types?
You state in changelog you split resilience into 3 abilities. I note 2. Resilience and Greater Resilience. The other is Ignore spells, the changelog now mentions this.
Mounting feels weird and kind of unnecessary. I agree completely. Gorgondantess insisted.

Chuul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10414321&postcount=585)
Spelling error: "Drak master". Fixed.
The list of abilities in the table is messy. As a rule, stat bonuses are last. Having '+1 origin' after the stat bonuses is confusing. +1 origin IS a stat bonus.
I still have reservations about several abilities:
Devour faith. You get unlimited Dispel Magics vs. divine spells & make divine casters lose their best prepared spells. Maybe if it caused the victim to lose their lowest level of prepared spells, not counting orisons? Simultaneously give it the ability to drain (a smaller number of) SLAs from creatures that have divine spells as SLAs? Celestials, lammasu, etc? Give a # of uses per day of dispel magic? Something like: I'll let it consume a number of spell levels based on HD with the defender choosing how those are distributed.Also, I'll put a usage limit on dispel magic.
[indent]The Chuul gains the ability to cast dispel magic once a day per three HD, targeting divine spells only. Further, any divine spellcaster grappled by the Chuul loses a number of prepared spells equal to the Chuul's Cha mod or half the spells that caster has available for that spell level, whichever is more. This effect causes the victim to lose spells starting with their 1st level spells and progresses to the next highest level when there are no more spells to drain at the given spell level. The Chuul regains 2hp for every spell level drained.
Avatar: So at 7th level you're delivering two attacks, each tacking on a save or lose effect. I don't like the easily applied panicked condition. Further, this is confusing: "Any creature struck by one of the chuul's natural attacks must make a will save DC 10+½HD+wis modifier or be panicked for 1d4+2 rounds. Those who fail their saves are instead shaken for one round." - if it's 'instead', why even get into the panicked bit? That should have been succeed. I'll fix this up somehow.
Secondary traits: It still feels like far too much packed into a single level 7 ability. At level 7 you'd be getting:
Your tentacles force a save or be paralyzed.
Every hit you deliver with your big claw forces a save or be dazed (lose a turn) I can make this part not gained till later.
Your one claw grows from 2d6 + ½ Str damage to 4d6 + 1.5x Str damage, and gets bigger bonuses from power attack.
You gain blindsight out to 60'. I'll make this blindsense, graduating to blindsight later.
You gain a massive bonus to hide checks (+35% success chance, basically, with +5% success for every HD after 7th) I can decrease the magnitude of this.
It's too much, and it doesn't all scale. I strongly recommend going over the creature and spacing out the benefits of various abilities over HD 1-20. Don't be in such a rush to cram everything in there. I'll try to find some other stuff to make scale.

Comments in blue.

Hyudra
2011-04-01, 12:15 PM
I'll probably try to get another batch critique done soon, to help out the individuals who're doing prompt fixes. Besides that, am slowly making my way through the Frostwind Virago changes. I'll probably not be posting another CR 15+ creature anytime soon.

I'll also note I've been plugging away at the Skulking Cyst, which is partially a personal stab at the host/zombie slave archetype that's proven difficult for those such as the Yellow Musk Creeper and the Gray Jester. A putrid undead tumor/cyst that lurks about, latches onto unsuspecting foes with intestines, sucks them dry and incorporates their broken bodies into its own mass. My first stab at the Erinyes was a misfire, as far as it being an initiator class, but I'm ruminating on a different route with similar principles.

Cogidubnus
2011-04-01, 05:59 PM
I was thinking of doing a short Multi-Headed Creature prestige class before I post my Shadesteel Golem, once the Brass is done. I think a short class would be good, but it's one where I'll genuinely have to think to give it interesting, thematic abilities for both humanoids and monsters more suited to to 3+ heads.

flabort
2011-04-01, 08:33 PM
Don't forget to make PrCs for the PrC, to cover lyrnian (spelling?) and pyro/cyro options in the template! :smalltongue:
Or, give each level an option to either grow another head or gain some of what those give. And, be carefull. Check out the hydra class (and the werehydra, which needs updating to new standards, and moving to the homebrew half of this project) to work on lyrnian.
The council had/has a bit of a problem with those for a while. Took a lot of work for the hydra to be acceptable. If it even is anymore.

Frog Dragon
2011-04-02, 07:32 AM
Frog Dragon's Gorgon-pestering post!

*Casts*

You haven't given any response to the PM I sent on the Ultroloth you claimed in thread one, which has been floating around the interest list ever since. Do you still intend to do it?

Gorgondantess
2011-04-02, 04:36 PM
Frog Dragon's Gorgon-pestering post!

*Casts*

You haven't given any response to the PM I sent on the Ultroloth you claimed in thread one, which has been floating around the interest list ever since. Do you still intend to do it?

Yes.
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-04-02, 06:17 PM
-snip-

For Gorgon. My latest updates to the Gargoyle. Sorry if you've already seen it and just haven't responded yet.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-02, 07:14 PM
For Gorgon. My latest updates to the Gargoyle. Sorry if you've already seen it and just haven't responded yet.

No, thank you, I'd missed it.
If anyone else has something they need reviewed, again, I might've missed it, so do pester me.

Ambush hunter: that's a little complicated. Just make it so that sneak attack dice also apply for the same.

Filthy talons: no, scale by HD. The idea here is you want it to be useful at all levels. As is, it's pretty much never useful, being a disease.
Deluge waterspout... actually a little weak. I'd kick up each damage die 1 step.
Dive attack: now it's of negligible effect.

Statuesque perfection: by RAW, it wouldn't include improved chiseled armaments, as it only states chiseled armaments, and they're 2 different things.

Benly
2011-04-02, 09:08 PM
No, thank you, I'd missed it.
If anyone else has something they need reviewed, again, I might've missed it, so do pester me.


I've made some requested tweaks to the coure eladrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10480332&postcount=1004).

I retained the existing "Eladrin Resistances" ability but renamed it "Eladrin" and have it giving subtypes to bring it in line with existing subtype abilities. It is not the same ability granted by the existing eladrin classes because, as I've noted previously, for reasons unknown to me the existing eladrin classes grant entirely different resistances than actual eladrin get. I also modified the Sleep ability in line with your suggestion.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-04-03, 07:18 AM
No, thank you, I'd missed it.
If anyone else has something they need reviewed, again, I might've missed it, so do pester me.

Ambush hunter: that's a little complicated. Just make it so that sneak attack dice also apply for the same.

Filthy talons: no, scale by HD. The idea here is you want it to be useful at all levels. As is, it's pretty much never useful, being a disease.
Deluge waterspout... actually a little weak. I'd kick up each damage die 1 step.
Dive attack: now it's of negligible effect.

Statuesque perfection: by RAW, it wouldn't include improved chiseled armaments, as it only states chiseled armaments, and they're 2 different things.

Okay, done.

Done, damage scales by HD, disease becomes supernatural (and much harder to remove without assistance) at 8HD.

Done.

Is that okay? Should I increase the cap? Lower the damage? Leave it as it is?

It states from the Chiseled Armaments list, which the Improved Chiseled Armaments are added to (which is the only way you can take them in the first place). Do you want me to add a note clarifying this or just leave it? Edit: The former might look untidy and the latter might lead to this being asked a lot. I'd lean toward the former but I'd appreciate your input.

Zemro
2011-04-03, 11:28 AM
If anyone else has something they need reviewed, again, I might've missed it, so do pester me.

I've made updates to the Justice Archon in line with your last review on the creature.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-03, 12:06 PM
I've made updates to the Justice Archon in line with your last review on the creature.

Yes, but did you add any active abilities?

Zemro
2011-04-03, 12:19 PM
Well, I replaced Shared Fate with an ability that requires a bit more active work to use. Looking over my notes, I do have another ability I could slot slot in, but I'm unsure where the best place in the class to put it in would be.

I was considering juggling around the levels on some abilities to even out the gains per level some and open up a good spot for it, but if you have a good suggestion about where another ability would be most needed that could also work.

EDIT: Mmm, I'm going to take that back, actually. Currently making another round of changes to the Justice Archon. Decided there were some other bits that should be cleaned up as well.

EDIT2: I have no made the following changes:

April 3rd
Reworded the section of Justice strike dealing with unarmed attacks.
Corrected an errant spelling of 'menace' in Aura of Menace.
Specified Caster Level on SLAs from Warp.
Altered Warp to start with Dimension Door, improving to Teleport at 9HD, and then progressing as normal.
Removed weight limits and decreased uses per day on Warp.
Altered Harry's passive benefits slightly.
Moved Quarry up to second level, Aligned Strike down to third.
Changed listed order of abilities slightly, and their wordings to reflect new positions.
Aligned Strike replaced with Justice Brand, retaining the same passive effect but adding an on-use component.
Slightly shifted the placement of a few formatting tags, making it so that the colon was consistently placed inside the bold tags on ability names. Previously it was inside on some and outside on others.
Justice Brand might be a little rough, but I'm going to have to take some time away from the class until I can properly review it myself. It does do what I want it to do, though, and in the fashion I want, but some of the finer points of the effect could benefit from outside opinion. Alternately I had considered it like a sort of smite mechanic, inflicting the faerie fire effect instead of extra damage along with the same rider. The surrender mechanic was not part of the initial idea, but I came up with in in the process as I felt it fit flavour-wise. (Fun fact, I learned that Faerie Fire offers no save, kinda neat)

Additionally I have two more changes I'm considering, but didn't have the time or ideas to do so with the last changes. The first is to make Pursuit, for lack of a better word, neater, since while a mechanical boon it's rather blah upon reflection.

The second is to tweak the ability boosts to include a +2 increase to strength in place of two points of Cha, but I'm unsure there. Weirdly enough I've also considered removing the Dex bonus since I'm not really sure it's needed. Never really been sure about how to adjudicate that portion of building a monster class.

Cogidubnus
2011-04-04, 03:32 AM
Just as nobody's said anything about it, I thought I'd make it clear that I've made all the changes to the Brass Golem, including adding what I hope are some slightly more active abilities.

Saidoro
2011-04-04, 01:42 PM
Chuul
March 30
Fixed spelling error in grim origin

April 4
Devour faith changed around, it now devours a number of spell levels equal to the chuul's HD(was 1d3 spells), has a uses per day limit on the dispel magic, and only heals 1 HP per spell level.
Made Devour faith scale.
Reduced condition imposed by Avatar to shaken.
Made Avatar scale.
Reduced blindsight from Secondary traits blindsense.
Removed dazing from secondary traits.
reduced initial damage boost to big claw in secondary traits.
Made secondary traits scale.


Razor Boar
March 30
Capitalized a dc in wrench.
Wrench can only be used against natural weapons your own size or smaller.

Changes made.

Ernir
2011-04-04, 08:04 PM
I can't see the Astral Deva, Planetar, or Solar on the lists in the thread's first post.

Am I being dense, or do these truly not exist?

Gorgondantess
2011-04-04, 08:55 PM
I can't see the Astral Deva, Planetar, or Solar on the lists in the thread's first post.

Am I being dense, or do these truly not exist?

See: Daeva.

Lyndworm
2011-04-05, 04:01 AM
I was looking into making a Half-Dragon Troll using your classes (because you guys and everything you touch are awesome), and I found an... issue. It's completely possible that I just missed something, but it seems that the Half-Dragon PrC grants an ability/bonus called Draconic Attributes, but this is not defined anywhere in the original post. Have I missed something, or are there actually no rules for that yet (I know it's still categorized as a work in progress)?




So long as I'm making the post, I'd love to see a Bladerager PrC for the Troll Class. I always thought that they were a very interesting idea in Flavor (similar to the Weapon X project, if you're a Marvel geek), but that the Crunch could be much better (for a player, anyway). I'd like to see what somebody as talented as any of you could actually do with that. Unfortunately, most/all of the abilities would be passive, but it's interesting nonetheless.

Hyudra
2011-04-05, 09:45 AM
Out of curiosity, which half dragon are you referring to?

There's currently 3 posted:
The original, by Oslecamo, which really doesn't work, which is why the following two exist:
The work in progress by NinethePuma, discontinued
The work in progress by Gorgondantess, not yet finalized.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-05, 10:50 AM
I was looking into making a Half-Dragon Troll using your classes (because you guys and everything you touch are awesome), and I found an... issue. It's completely possible that I just missed something, but it seems that the Half-Dragon PrC grants an ability/bonus called Draconic Attributes, but this is not defined anywhere in the original post. Have I missed something, or are there actually no rules for that yet (I know it's still categorized as a work in progress)?
There were rules for that, but they must've been lost in the void when I was breaking it into 2 parts. i.e., I accidentally deleted them. Again, it's a WIP.


So long as I'm making the post, I'd love to see a Bladerager PrC for the Troll Class. I always thought that they were a very interesting idea in Flavor (similar to the Weapon X project, if you're a Marvel geek), but that the Crunch could be much better (for a player, anyway). I'd like to see what somebody as talented as any of you could actually do with that. Unfortunately, most/all of the abilities would be passive, but it's interesting nonetheless.

That's... not really what this project is about. Unless Bladerager is a troll-only template.:smallconfused:

Lyndworm
2011-04-05, 11:07 AM
Out of curiosity, which half dragon are you referring to?
As Gorgondantess correctly inferred, I was referring to his class. I'd prefer to pretend that Oslecamo's didn't exist, and Ninethepuma's class was removed out of protest.


There were rules for that, but they must've been lost in the void when I was breaking it into 2 parts. i.e., I accidentally deleted them. Again, it's a WIP.
Fair enough. I've seen bigger screw-ups than that. I just thought that you would want the heads-up, really.


That's... not really what this project is about. Unless Bladerager is a troll-only template.:smallconfused:
The Bladerager Troll is a monster all on its own, technically, but it would probably make sense as a Troll-only PrC. They're from MM5 (I think), and the fluff is that they were enslaved by Fire Giants and used for hideous experiments that turned them into living weapons. Taking advantage of their regenerative abilities, bits of metal fused into their bodies. This ups their natural weapon damage, as their claws and teeth are now coated in metal, and it gives them a built-in Armor Bonus. The unimaginable pain also drives them to be horribly insane, but that's par for the course for evil experiments.

I'm sorry if that's not really something that interests any of you. I thought that the point of this project was to turn interesting creatures into unique-but-playable classes, but it's possible that I really have missed the point. If that's the case, then I'm sorry for bringing it up, and I'll try to lurk moar before giving my opinion.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-05, 11:14 AM
The Bladerager Troll is a monster all on its own, technically, but it would probably make sense as a Troll-only PrC. They're from MM5 (I think), and the fluff is that they were enslaved by Fire Giants and used for hideous experiments that turned them into living weapons. Taking advantage of their regenerative abilities, bits of metal fused into their bodies. This ups their natural weapon damage, as their claws and teeth are now coated in metal, and it gives them a built-in Armor Bonus. The unimaginable pain also drives them to be horribly insane, but that's par for the course for evil experiments.

I'm sorry if that's not really something that interests any of you. I thought that the point of this project was to turn interesting creatures into unique-but-playable classes, but it's possible that I really have missed the point. If that's the case, then I'm sorry for bringing it up, and I'll try to lurk moar before giving my opinion.

Ah, then yes, that might be a good template to make. I saw "PrC" and was thinking some homebrew class. So, that is within the scope of this project... but I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you. Most people would rather do the monsters they want to do, rather than the monsters everyone else wants them to do, eh?

Cogidubnus
2011-04-05, 11:15 AM
No, that's pretty much the point. Simply think Gorgon hadn't heard of it xD

It does sound pretty awesome. Maybe use something similar to the Horrid Monster's response to Mind-Affecting, or a Berserker feature, for the insanity.

Lyndworm
2011-04-05, 11:19 AM
Ah, then yes, that might be a good template to make. I saw "PrC" and was thinking some homebrew class. So, that is within the scope of this project... but I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you. Most people would rather do the monsters they want to do, rather than the monsters everyone else wants them to do, eh?
That's fine, I was just throwing it out there. I can hardly complain that someone else isn't going to do it for me, can I? :smalltongue: Who knows, maybe if I get inspired enough I may try to tackle it myself and actually contribute for once. If that does happen, I'll let you guys know before I post it, of course, so for the time being it's best to assume that I have not "expressed interest in doing it. Still, thank you for taking the time to consider it.


It does sound pretty awesome. Maybe use something similar to the Horrid Monster's response to Mind-Affecting, or a Berserker feature, for the insanity.
That's certainly not a bad idea. The Horrid Monster's Ill Tempered ability is vaguely similar in mechanics, if not in fluff, to the Bladerager's Tortured Mind ability.

ScionoftheVoid
2011-04-06, 03:52 PM
Okay, Gorgon, following changes made to the Gargoyle:

06/04/11 - City Prowler diving charge bonus damage less limited (cap increased to d6/HD from d6/2HD and recoil lowered to 1/3 of bonus damage from 1/2). Clarification added to Statuesque Perfection.

Is it finished now?

EdroGrimshell
2011-04-06, 09:14 PM
I noticed that the werewolf lycan isn't even suggested, i'd like to see it please :smallbiggrin:

I'd also like to see the Daelkyr here

Hyudra
2011-04-06, 09:40 PM
I noticed that the werewolf lycan isn't even suggested, i'd like to see it please :smallbiggrin:

I'd also like to see the Daelkyr here

Werewolf and several lycanthropes are here, they're under the spoiler at the bottom of 'prestige monster classes'. They were just taking up too much space, so one of my predecessors crammed them in there.

EdroGrimshell
2011-04-06, 09:46 PM
Werewolf and several lycanthropes are here, they're under the spoiler at the bottom of 'prestige monster classes'. They were just taking up too much space, so one of my predecessors crammed them in there.

Werewolf isn't there, i just checked

Gorgondantess
2011-04-06, 09:52 PM
Yeah, there used to be a lot more 'thropes, then they just disappeared.
Frankly, though? I'd advise you just use the normal werewolf. The normal WotC Lycanthropes are actually pretty decent. Hell, I personally still use them myself.

Crafty Cultist
2011-04-06, 09:55 PM
I made the werewolf class a while back, but it was one of the classes that needed reworking. I had heard that lycanthropes were going to be in a seperate thread, so I was waiting for info on where that thread was.

Tanuki Tales
2011-04-06, 10:52 PM
Scrapped.

Nevermind, answered my own question. :smallredface:

Benly
2011-04-07, 04:19 PM
Firre Eladrin
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/bensanaz/Eladrin_firre.jpg
Monster Class
Book of Exalted Deeds

Class:


HD: d6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Firre Body, Versatile Artist, Bardic Music (Song of Fiery Battle, Song of Blazing Hearts)

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Fiery Gaze (1d4, dazzling), Eladrin resistances, +1 Cha

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Bardic Music (Song of the Joined Bonfire), spellcasting

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Fiery Gaze (1d6), +1 Cha

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Blazing Form

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Bardic Music (Song of the Comforting Hearth), +1 Cha

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|Fiery Gaze (2d6, swiftened)

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+6|Blazing Stance, +1 Cha

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+6|Fiery Gaze (blinding)

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+7|Endless Song[/table]

Skill Points: (4 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The firre eladrin's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).


Proficiencies: The firre eladrin gains proficiency with light armor, shields (except tower shields), all simple weapons, and one martial melee weapon of her choice. A firre eladrin is also proficient with her blazing form's slam attacks.

Firre Body: The firre eladrin loses all other racial bonuses and becomes an outsider with the chaotic, good, and eladrin subtypes. It gains outsider traits, granting it darkvision out to 60'. Firre eladrin are medium sized creatures with a base land speed of 30'. A firre eladrin has Celestial and Common as starting languages, with additional languages for a high Int score as normal. Firre eladrin do not gain the normal benefits of the eladrin subtype, instead gaining the Eladrin Resistances ability at level 2.

Attribute Increase: The firre eladrin gains +1 to Charisma at levels 2, 4, 6, and 8, for a total increase of +4 at 10th level.

Versatile Artist (Ex): Firre are the living embodiment of the joy of art and performance. A firre with ranks in any Perform skill is considered to have ranks in Perform (Sing) and Perform (Dance) equal to her highest ranks in any Perform skill. A firre with ranks in any Craft skill is considered to have ranks in her choice of Craft (Sculpture), Craft (Painting), Craft (Calligraphy) or Craft (Jewelrymaking) equal to her highest ranks in any Craft skill. A firre who buys ranks in multiple Craft skills may select an additional artistic Craft skill for each distinct Craft skill she buys with skill points; at the DM's discretion, other Craft skills with an artistic nature may be selected with this ability. A firre with ranks in Appraise or Knowledge (history) may use one of those skills instead of Forgery to detect forgeries and may detect forgeries even in languages she does not understand as the touch of plagiarism alerts her artistic sensibility. A firre with ranks in Appraise, Knowledge (history), or Decipher Script may use any of those three skills in place of either of the others, but only when making checks related to pieces of artwork or art history.

Bardic Music: Firre eladrin are the patrons and defenders of songs and art. Starting from first level, a firre gains the ability of bardic music. This works like the bard class ability in many ways, except that the firre learns different songs from a bard as it gains levels. A firre with levels in another class that grants bardic music may add together her class levels in classes that grant the ability for the purposes of calculating her songs' effectiveness and uses per day, although not for the purposes of songs known or other benefits. Because it is thus possible to continue advancing bardic music's effects past the 10 levels of the firre eladrin class, songs may list continuing effects for levels higher than 10. Unlike bards, firre must use a Perform skill that creates audible sound for their bardic music (such as song, poetry, or a musical instrument), as the firre are creatures of unrestrained joyful noise.
Song of Fiery Battle (Su): Firre are warriors as much as they are artists, and the first song they learn combines the two. A firre eladrin with 3 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill may fill her allies' blades with the heat of her joy in battle. All allies who can hear the firre perform deal an additional 1d6 fire damage with their weapons for as long as the firre continues to play and five rounds thereafter. At eighth level, and every six levels thereafter, an additional 1d6 fire damage is added. At level 9, the firre may choose to expend an extra usage of bardic music as a free action at any time during the Song of Fiery Battle to cause half the bonus damage added to become sacred damage rather than fire damage. At level 15, expending an extra usage of bardic music in this way causes all the bonus damage from Song of Fiery Battle to become sacred damage.
This song counts as Inspire Courage for purposes of feat and class prerequisites, and any spell, feat, or item that increases the effects of Inspire Courage may instead be used to increase the effects of the Song of Fiery Battle by an extra 1d6 for every +1 it would normally add to Inspire Courage.
Song of Blazing Hearts (Su): The love of freedom burns like a pyre within the firre eladrin. A firre with 3 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill may use this song to light that pyre within her allies. The firre makes a Perform check every round that she maintains this song. Any creature within 30 feet of the firre (including the firre herself) who can hear the song and is subjected to a magical attack with the charm, compulsion, or evil descriptors or any magical attack from an evil summoned creature may use the firre's Perform check in place of its saving throw against such attacks if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check is higher. A creature already under the noninstantaneous effect of such an attack gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the Song of Burning Hearts, but must use the firre's Perform check result for the save. This song has no effect against effects that don't allow saves. The song may be sustained for a maximum of ten rounds.
This song counts as Countersong for purposes of feat and class prerequisites, and any spell, feat or item that improves the effectiveness of Countersong may be used to improve the effectiveness of the Song of Blazing Hearts instead.
Song of the Joined Bonfire (Su): Many small flames can become an inferno, and many hearts working as one can overcome great obstacles. A firre of third level or higher with 6 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill can use this song to encourage cooperation towards a common goal. Allies within 30 feet who can hear the firre's song may Aid Another even on skill checks they would not normally be able to aid their ally with, such as untrained allies assisting with trained-only skills. They still must actively contribute to the effort in some manner; this song only ensures that such efforts can be constructive.
This song counts as Inspire Competence for purposes of feat and class prerequisites.
Song of the Comforting Hearth (Sp): While an unchecked fire rages out of control, a warm hearth brings comfort and contentment. A firre of sixth level or higher with 9 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill can use this song, which is just as soothing. The firre makes a Perform check. All creatures within 30 feet that can hear the firre perform must make a Will save with DC equal to the firre's Perform check. Those which fail the save are affected as by calm emotions as long as the firre continues to perform. Maintaining this song requires concentration and may be continued for up to one round per level. If the firre stops performing before then, the effect continues for an additional three rounds, until the maximum duration is reached, or until the subjects see an aggressive action being taken, whichever comes first.
This song counts as a bard's Fascinate and Suggestion abilities for purposes of feat and class prerequisites. Items, spells or feats that increase the DC of the Fascinate or Suggestion bard abilities may instead be used to increase the DC of this effect by an equal amount if the firre so chooses.

Fiery Gaze (Su): The divine fire that burns within a firre can scorch an enemy who meets her gaze. Once per round, as a move action, a firre of second level or higher can unleash her inner fires on an enemy within 60 feet. This deals 1d4 fire damage to that enemy and dazzles it for one minute. The targeted enemy may make a Reflex save with a DC of 10 + 1/2 the firre's HD + the firre's Charisma bonus to halve the damage and prevent the dazzling. Fiery Gaze is ineffective against a blind enemy or one who successfully averts his eyes, as if against a gaze attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks).
This ability improves as the firre eladrin gains levels. At fourth level, Fiery Gaze deals 1d6 damage. At seventh level, it deals 2d6 damage; also at seventh level, Fiery Gaze may be used as a swift action rather than a move action but deals only 1d6 damage if used as a swift action. At ninth level, Fiery Gaze deals 2d6 damage as either a swift or move action, and the firre may choose to blind enemies rather than dazzling them. An enemy blinded by Fiery Gaze is blind for one round plus an additional round for every HD the firre eladrin has above 9 (so that a firre eladrin with 11 HD, for example, will blind an enemy for three rounds.) A successful saving throw against a blinding Fiery Gaze will prevent the blindness effect just as it would prevent the dazzling effect.

Eladrin Resistances (Ex): Eladrin are resistant to certain sorts of harm. A second-level firre eladrin gains resistance to acid, cold, and electricity equal to her HD, to a maximum of 10. Also at second level, she becomes immune to petrification, and at 10 HD she becomes immune to electricity.

Spellcasting: A firre eladrin casts spells as a bard two levels lower than her firre eladrin level, with a few exceptions. A firre eladrin's spells are divine spells, and she draws her spells known from the divine bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) spell list and the Fire domain. However, Charisma is still used to determine available spells, bonus spells, and save DCs. A firre eladrin may not cast any spells with the cold descriptor, but gains +1 caster level for spells with the fire descriptor. A firre who multiclasses as a bard may choose to continue this casting progression instead of beginning the bard casting progression from level 1.
The firre's spellcasting may be considered arcane spellcasting for the purposes of feats and prestige classes that either require bardic music as a prerequisite or improve bardic music.

Blazing Form (Su): The firre is a creature of fire and song. At fifth level, the firre can externalize the flames burning within her. As a move action, the firre transforms into the form of a dazzling pillar of fire. She may revert to humanoid form at any time as a move action. A firre eladrin's humanoid form and blazing form are both considered her "true form"; True Seeing or similar effects will reveal both forms at once, and she does not revert when losing consciousness. She also does not revert to humanoid form in an antimagic field; the act of transforming is supernatural, but both forms are entirely natural to the firre.
In blazing form, the firre gains a fly speed of 30 feet with perfect maneuverability. The firre gains two slam attacks, each dealing 1d6 damage + 1d6 fire damage. A firre in blazing form may not wield weapons or shields. However, any melee weapon wielded during the transformation is temporarily subsumed into the pillar of flames; its enchantment, if any, is transferred to the firre's slam attacks for the duration. If the firre is wielding two weapons when she transforms, she may choose to either apply one weapon's enchantments to both slams or apply the two different weapon's enchantments to her two slams separately. Magic items and armor other than weapons or shields worn by the firre are subsumed into the pillar of flames; they have no visible presence, but continue to confer their normal benefits and penalties. An eladrin in blazing form loses her natural cold resistance and gains fire resistance equal to her HD. An eladrin in blazing form sheds light as a bonfire. It is impossible to hide in blazing form except in circumstances where a six-foot-tall pillar of fire does not stand out (such as on the Elemental Plane of Fire or, perhaps, inside a volcano or burning building.)
A firre in blazing form may not cast spells, use her Fiery Gaze, or use bardic music. However, she gains certain abilities which may only be used in blazing form. A firre eladrin in blazing form who takes the full attack action may charge her slam attacks for one round with the power of her Fiery Gaze, adding fire damage to each slam attack equal to the fire damage dealt by her Fiery Gaze. As a swift action, she may expend a use of bardic music and empower her slam attacks for one round as if she were under the effects of her own Song of Fiery Battle for one round. She may extend this effect by expending an additional use of bardic music as a free action each subsequent round.
At eighth level, the blazing form's fly speed increases to sixty feet with perfect maneuverability. Additionally, the firre eladrin develops certain fighting stances called "blazing stances" which can be used only in blazing form. The firre selects one stance to enter when she assumes blazing form; she may subsequently change her active stance as a swift action. If she knows other stances (such as via the Martial Stance feat), she may not use them at the same time as a blazing stance.
At tenth level, the blazing form's fly speed increases to ninety feet with perfect maneuverability.

Blazing Stances:
Dancing Ember Stance: The firre eladrin's movements become as light as an ember carried on the air currents, propelled by the turbulence of battle. Whenever the firre eladrin is attacked while in this stance, whether the attack hits or misses, she may make a 5-foot step for each attack made against her. The space into which she steps must be one threatened by or adjacent to the enemy that attacked her if the attack was a melee attack. If the attack was a ranged attack, the step must be into another space within range of the attack and may not be into a space adjacent to the attacker unless the firre was already adjacent to her attacker at the beginning of the attack. The firre may choose to delay any or all of the 5' steps granted by this ability until just after the end of the attacker's turn, or the end of the attacker's action if the attacker is acting out of turn. Any 5' steps that the firre delays in this manner ignore the previous restriction on what spaces may be stepped into, and instead may be taken into any unoccupied adjacent space.
Menacing Pyre Stance: The firre becomes as dangerous to the touch as a blazing inferno. Whenever she is attacked in melee, the attacker is affected as if the firre had used her Fiery Gaze on it, replacing the usual Reflex save with a Will save. Any given enemy may only be thus affected once per round, although any number of enemies per round may be affected by this stance as long as they all attack the firre in melee.
Leaping Flames Stance: The firre moves as gleefully and unpredictably as crackling flames. While in this stance, the firre does not need to move in a straight line to charge and may use both her slam attacks at the end of a charge. In addition, when an enemy attempts to strike her with an attack of opportunity made for moving through its threatened area during a charge, she may make a Perform (Dance) check. If the result of the check is higher than the enemy's attack roll, the attack is considered not to have been made and no attack of opportunity is provoked by the firre's movement through that enemy's threatened space during that charge.

Endless Song (Ex): The firre eladrin eventually becomes a perfect incarnation of the joy of music. A firre eladrin of tenth level or higher does not need to expend daily bardic music uses to perform bardic music. Other abilities which require the expenditure of bardic music uses (such as converting the Song of Fiery Battle's damage to sacred damage, empowering her Blazing Form's slam attacks, or activating bardic music feats) still require their normal expenditures.




Comments

Firre eladrin, bards of the upper planes! There's a lot of different stuff here. Their bardic music abilities parallel actual bard abilities, although I tried to give them a distinct feel. Compared to bards, they lose some spellcasting, bardic knowledge, and most of the sneaky or sagacious stuff off the skill list. In return, they get Fiery Gaze for a little added damage and a debuff, and Blazing Form, which provides an alternate mode that turns off their buffing and spellcasting and turns them into fast, flying melee types with significant striker potential if built towards that purpose. I might drop the spellcasting further - I feel like it's important that they have some, but it isn't their main deal.


Changelog

4/7/11: Initial post.
4/8/11: Text clarification regarding TWF and Blazing Form.
4/8/11 (2): Removed cost to transform to Blazing Form. Added text regarding both forms being true forms (it's in the original creature, and it's charmingly weird).
4/9/11: Realized the fiery gaze chargeup in blazing form was broken as written. Ability rewritten to actually work.
4/9/11 (2): Increased overall cha bonus from +3 to +4. Added post-durations to music abilities. Added Fire domain to class spell list. Added delay option to Dancing Ember Stance. Added optimization compatibility to Song of the Comforting Hearth.
4/9/11 (3): Added Appraise, Decipher Script, and K (history) to class skill list. Expanded Versatile Performer into Versatile Artist. Now they're skillmonkeys, but only about art!

Benly
2011-04-07, 04:26 PM
So hey, I got bored waiting for more word back on the coure eladrin and this happened. :smallsmile: Anyone who complained that the coure was a boring old sneak-around should be happier with the firre on that front, because while the coure's essential monster premise is "sneaky little prankster", the firre's essential monster premise is "bard who can set you on fire by looking at you or turn into a flying punching fireball".

The firre is pretty optimizable in many of the same ways a bard is; I deliberately made the class compatible with most existing supplementary bard material, even though its abilities are distinct. Blazing Form has the potential to be a very nasty striker, but it'll churn through bardic music uses like there's no tomorrow if you go that route - the candle that burns the brightest, and all that. :smallsmile: The level 10 capstone isn't as much of a gamebreaker as you might think; by that point, any bard will have enough music to sing all day anyway, and what's really sucking them down is bardic feats and similar abilities (such as the aforementioned Blazing Form striker goodness). The capstone just encourages you to keep buffing your allies even when these other options are on the table.

I worked out new wording for the eladrin subtype and resistances issue while I was working on the firre, and have modified the coure to match it. I would like to submit this model as a standard for the eladrin subtype of monster classes, because the old standard does not even closely match the resistance types that eladrin normally get as creatures.

YouLostMe
2011-04-07, 11:47 PM
What book are Firre Eladrin from?

Benly
2011-04-08, 12:05 AM
What book are Firre Eladrin from?

Book of Exalted Deeds, like it says under the picture. :smallsmile:

Frog Dragon
2011-04-08, 02:46 PM
A wild critique appears!

Firre Eladrin

HD: d6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Firre Body, Versatile Performer, Bardic Music (Song of Fiery Battle, Song of Blazing Hearts)

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Fiery Gaze (1d4, dazzling), Eladrin resistances, +1 Cha

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Bardic Music (Song of the Joined Bonfire), spellcasting

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Fiery Gaze (1d6), +1 Cha

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Blazing Form

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Bardic Music (Song of the Comforting Hearth)

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|Fiery Gaze (2d6, swiftened), +1 Cha

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+6|Blazing Stance

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+6|Fiery Gaze (blinding)

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+7|Endless Song[/table]

Skill Points: (4 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The firre eladrin's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex). I see a bard chassis, but the skill points are lesser. Why is this? From what I've seen in the rest of the class, on a cursory look, it doesn't give that much over the bard, and loses a bunch. While I could see this with a stronger caster, bard is really about right powerwise, so their archetype or anything based on them doesn't need a nerf.


Proficiencies: The firre eladrin gains proficiency with light armor, shields (except tower shields), all simple weapons, and one martial melee weapon of her choice. A firre eladrin is also proficient with her blazing form's slam attacks. Mostly the same as bard, better in some ways, worse in others. Not much to say here.

Firre Body: The firre eladrin loses all other racial bonuses and becomes an outsider with the chaotic, good, and eladrin subtypes. It gains outsider traits, granting it darkvision out to 60'. Firre eladrin are medium sized creatures with a base land speed of 30'. A firre eladrin has Celestial and Common as starting languages, with additional languages for a high Int score as normal. Firre eladrin do not gain the normal benefits of the eladrin subtype, instead gaining the Eladrin Resistances ability at level 2. Nothing particularly notable here.

Attribute Increase: The firre eladrin gains +1 to Charisma at levels 2, 4, and 7, for a total increase of +3 at 10th level. It could stand to get a bit more. Levels 2, 4, 6 and 8, perhaps? This is its only stat bonus, and its very minor right now.

Versatile Performer (Ex): Firre are the living embodiment of the joy of art and performance. A firre with ranks in any Perform skill is considered to have ranks in Perform (Sing) and Perform (Dance) equal to her highest ranks in any Perform skill. A fluff ability. Doesn't really push the board either way.

Bardic Music: Firre eladrin are the patrons and defenders of songs and art. Starting from first level, a firre gains the ability of bardic music. This works like the bard class ability in many ways, except that the firre learns different songs from a bard as it gains levels. A firre with levels in another class that grants bardic music may add together her class levels in classes that grant the ability for the purposes of calculating her songs' effectiveness and uses per day, although not for the purposes of songs known or other benefits. Because it is thus possible to continue advancing bardic music's effects past the 10 levels of the firre eladrin class, songs may list continuing effects for levels higher than 10. Unlike bards, firre must use a Perform skill that creates audible sound for their bardic music (such as song, poetry, or a musical instrument), as the firre are creatures of unrestrained joyful noise.
Song of Fiery Battle (Su): Firre are warriors as much as they are artists, and the first song they learn combines the two. A firre eladrin with 3 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill may fill her allies' blades with the heat of her joy in battle. All allies who can hear the firre perform deal an additional 1d6 fire damage with their weapons. At eighth level, and every six levels thereafter, an additional 1d6 fire damage is added. At level 9, the firre may choose to expend an extra usage of bardic music as a free action at any time during the Song of Fiery Battle to cause half the bonus damage added to become sacred damage rather than fire damage. At level 15, expending an extra usage of bardic music in this way causes all the bonus damage from Song of Fiery Battle to become sacred damage.
This song counts as Inspire Courage for purposes of feat and class prerequisites, and any spell, feat, or item that increases the effects of Inspire Courage may instead be used to increase the effects of the Song of Fiery Battle by an extra 1d6 for every +1 it would normally add to Inspire Courage.
Song of Blazing Hearts (Su): The love of freedom burns like a pyre within the firre eladrin. A firre with 3 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill may use this song to light that pyre within her allies. The firre makes a Perform check every round that she maintains this song. Any creature within 30 feet of the firre (including the firre herself) who can hear the song and is subjected to a magical attack with the charm, compulsion, or evil descriptors or any magical attack from an evil summoned creature may use the firre's Perform check in place of its saving throw against such attacks if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check is higher. A creature already under the noninstantaneous effect of such an attack gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the Song of Burning Hearts, but must use the firre's Perform check result for the save. This song has no effect against effects that don't allow saves. The song may be sustained for a maximum of ten rounds.
This song counts as Countersong for purposes of feat and class prerequisites, and any spell, feat or item that improves the effectiveness of Countersong may be used to improve the effectiveness of the Song of Blazing Hearts instead.
Song of the Joined Bonfire (Su): Many small flames can become an inferno, and many hearts working as one can overcome great obstacles. A firre of third level or higher with 6 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill can use this song to encourage cooperation towards a common goal. Allies within 30 feet who can hear the firre's song may Aid Another even on skill checks they would not normally be able to aid their ally with, such as untrained allies assisting with trained-only skills. They still must actively contribute to the effort in some manner; this song only ensures that such efforts can be constructive.
This song counts as Inspire Competence for purposes of feat and class prerequisites.
Song of the Comforting Hearth (Sp): While an unchecked fire rages out of control, a warm hearth brings comfort and contentment. A firre of sixth level or higher with 9 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill can use this song, which is just as soothing. The firre makes a Perform check. All creatures within 30 feet that can hear the firre perform must make a Will save with DC equal to the firre's Perform check. Those which fail the save are affected as by calm emotions as long as the firre continues to perform. Maintaining this song requires concentration and may be continued for up to one round per level.
This song counts as a bard's Fascinate and Suggestion abilities for purposes of feat and class prerequisites. Not sure how the abilities themselves match up to the songs the bard has. They seem to be a bit better. However, a splatted bard completely and utterly blows this out of the water. Again, I think this could use a bit of a boost, especially since it is incapable of using many of the goodies from splatbooks, since it doesn't actually have an inspire courage bonus.

Fiery Gaze (Su): The divine fire that burns within a firre can scorch an enemy who meets her gaze. Once per round, as a move action, a firre of second level or higher can unleash her inner fires on an enemy within 60 feet. This deals 1d4 fire damage to that enemy and dazzles it for one minute. The targeted enemy may make a Reflex save with a DC of 10 + 1/2 the firre's HD + the firre's Charisma bonus to halve the damage and prevent the dazzling. Fiery Gaze is ineffective against a blind enemy or one who successfully averts his eyes, as if against a gaze attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks).
This ability improves as the firre eladrin gains levels. At fourth level, Fiery Gaze deals 1d6 damage. At seventh level, it deals 2d6 damage; also at seventh level, Fiery Gaze may be used as a swift action rather than a move action but deals only 1d6 damage if used as a swift action. At ninth level, Fiery Gaze deals 2d6 damage as either a swift or move action, and the firre may choose to blind enemies rather than dazzling them. An enemy blinded by Fiery Gaze is blind for one round plus an additional round for every HD the firre eladrin has above 9 (so that a firre eladrin with 11 HD, for example, will blind an enemy for three rounds.) A successful saving throw against a blinding Fiery Gaze will prevent the blindness effect just as it would prevent the dazzling effect. This ability is just underwhelming. Dazzled is an extremely weak condition, and the damage is piddly at all points of the progression. The blinding redeems it somewhat, but its still unreliable and easy to negate. The fact that it's a move action (or swift, later on) makes it a bit more useful, but this would only see use when the move action just wouldn't be used otherwise. Again, needs a buff. As a sidenote, "swiftened" should be changed to "swift action" for clarity in the table.

Eladrin Resistances (Ex): Eladrin are resistant to certain sorts of harm. A second-level firre eladrin gains resistance to acid, cold, and electricity equal to her HD, to a maximum of 10. Also at second level, she becomes immune to petrification, and at 10 HD she becomes immune to electricity. Nothing odd here.

Spellcasting: A firre eladrin casts spells as a bard two levels lower than her firre eladrin level. A firre eladrin's spells are divine spells, and she uses the divine bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) spell list; however, Charisma is still used to determine available spells, bonus spells, and save DCs. A firre eladrin may not cast any spells with the cold descriptor, but gains +1 caster level for spells with the fire descriptor. A firre who multiclasses as a bard may choose to continue this casting progression instead of beginning the bard casting progression from level 1.
The firre's spellcasting may be considered arcane spellcasting for the purposes of feats and prestige classes that either require bardic music as a prerequisite or improve bardic music. Considering that the Firre Eladrin's abilities aren't actually that great, this could stand to come a bit earlier.

Blazing Form (Su): The firre is a creature of fire and song. At fifth level, the firre can externalize the flames burning within her. By expending a use of bardic music as a move action, the firre transforms into the form of a dazzling pillar of fire. She may remain in this form for up to an hour; reverting to humanoid form is a move action.
In blazing form, the firre gains a fly speed of 30 feet with perfect maneuverability. The firre gains two slam attacks, each dealing 1d6 damage + 1d6 fire damage. A firre in blazing form may not wield weapons or shields. However, any melee weapon wielded during the transformation is temporarily subsumed into the pillar of flames; its enchantment, if any, is transferred to the firre's slam attacks for the duration. Magic items and armor other than weapons or shields worn by the firre are subsumed into the pillar of flames; they have no visible presence, but continue to confer their normal benefits and penalties. An eladrin in blazing form loses her natural cold resistance and gains fire resistance equal to her HD. An eladrin in blazing form sheds light as a bonfire. It is impossible to hide in blazing form except in circumstances where a six-foot-tall pillar of fire does not stand out (such as on the Elemental Plane of Fire or, perhaps, inside a volcano or burning building.)
A firre in blazing form may not cast spells, use her Fiery Gaze, or use bardic music. However, she gains certain abilities which may only be used in blazing form. As a move action, she may charge her slam attacks for one round with the power of her Fiery Gaze, adding fire damage to each slam attack equal to the fire damage dealt by her Fiery Gaze. As a swift action, she may expend a use of bardic music and empower her slam attacks for one round as if she were under the effects of her own Song of Fiery Battle for one round. She may extend this effect by expending an additional use of bardic music as a free action each subsequent round.
At eighth level, the blazing form's fly speed increases to sixty feet with perfect maneuverability. Additionally, the firre eladrin develops certain fighting stances called "blazing stances" which can be used only in blazing form. The firre selects one stance to enter when she assumes blazing form; she may subsequently change her active stance as a swift action. If she knows other stances (such as via the Martial Stance feat), she may not use them at the same time as a blazing stance.
At tenth level, the blazing form's fly speed increases to ninety feet with perfect maneuverability. What happens if the Firre was wielding two weapons when activating Blazing Form?
Apart from that, this is pretty cool, but still not very good. The Firre loses the ability to empower allies, cast spells, really most of what makes the class playable in the first place. While the mobility granted is nice, the rest isn't too impressive. Without a build specifically for the purpose, this won't be much of a striker, and will be plagued by the low hit points on the chassis. The stances are fun, and make this somewhat better, but it could stand to lose some limitations.

Blazing Stances:
Dancing Ember Stance: The firre eladrin's movements become as light as an ember carried on the air currents, propelled by the turbulence of battle. Whenever the firre eladrin is attacked while in this stance, whether the attack hits or misses, she may make a 5-foot step. The space into which she steps must be one threatened by or adjacent to the enemy that attacked her if the attack was a melee attack. If the attack was a ranged attack, the step must be into another space within range of the attack and may not be into a space adjacent to the attacker unless the firre was already adjacent to her attacker at the beginning of the attack.
Menacing Pyre Stance: The firre becomes as dangerous to the touch as a blazing inferno. Whenever she is attacked in melee, the attacker is affected as if the firre had used her Fiery Gaze on it, replacing the usual Reflex save with a Will save. Any given enemy may only be thus affected once per round, although any number of enemies per round may be affected by this stance as long as they all attack the firre in melee.
Leaping Flames Stance: The firre moves as gleefully and unpredictably as crackling flames. While in this stance, the firre does not need to move in a straight line to charge and may use both her slam attacks at the end of a charge. In addition, when an enemy attempts to strike her with an attack of opportunity made for moving through its threatened area during a charge, she may make a Perform (Dance) check. If the result of the check is higher than the enemy's attack roll, the attack is considered not to have been made and no attack of opportunity is provoked by the firre's movement through that enemy's threatened space during that charge.

Endless Song (Ex): The firre eladrin eventually becomes a perfect incarnation of the joy of music. A firre eladrin of tenth level or higher does not need to expend daily bardic music uses to perform bardic music. Other abilities which require the expenditure of bardic music uses (such as converting the Song of Fiery Battle's damage to sacred damage, empowering her Blazing Form's slam attacks, or activating bardic music feats) still require their normal expenditures. This is pretty nice, and allows the Firre to more freely use his abilities, which is good. No complaints here.
Comments in blue.

In general, I feel it is too weak. The abilities are all rather underwhelming, and don't do enough to justify the losses the Firre suffers compared to the bard. I'd give this a power boost on quite a few fronts to make it compare to the bard it is modified from.

Unrelated note: My dragon seems to have kinda fallen through the cracks, and is stagnating over there. I'd like to get to other monsters, so could any flaws be pointed out, so they might be fixed? Just want to get this out of my list. :smallsmile:

Hyudra
2011-04-08, 02:56 PM
I've been busy so I haven't been critiquing. Work plus home renovations plus some other junk I won't get into.

Frog Dragon, I'm afraid that by committing to a 20 level class, you're facing another two weeks, at the very minimum, before you'll be done.

I'll see about doing a batch critique later tonight. No promises.

Frog Dragon
2011-04-08, 02:58 PM
Yeah, it just kinda seemed that the whole thing had been forgotten. I wanted to be sure that hadn't happened.

Benly
2011-04-08, 03:46 PM
Thank you for the feedback! Although I think there's an extremely important piece of text you missed.


A wild critique appears!
Go get 'em, responses!



I see a bard chassis, but the skill points are lesser. Why is this? From what I've seen in the rest of the class, on a cursory look, it doesn't give that much over the bard, and loses a bunch. While I could see this with a stronger caster, bard is really about right powerwise, so their archetype or anything based on them doesn't need a nerf.

To be specific, the firre loses the sneaky and loremaster type skills from the bard, because those aren't part of their general monster concept. They could have 6 skill points, it could go either way. Definitely a spot where I'm flexible.


It could stand to get a bit more. Levels 2, 4, 6 and 8, perhaps? This is its only stat bonus, and its very minor right now.

Another spot where I'm flexible. Again, it could go either way.


Not sure how the abilities themselves match up to the songs the bard has. They seem to be a bit better. However, a splatted bard completely and utterly blows this out of the water. Again, I think this could use a bit of a boost, especially since it is incapable of using many of the goodies from splatbooks, since it doesn't actually have an inspire courage bonus.

Here's the important text you missed, under Song of Fiery Battle: "This song counts as Inspire Courage for purposes of feat and class prerequisites, and any spell, feat, or item that increases the effects of Inspire Courage may instead be used to increase the effects of the Song of Fiery Battle by an extra 1d6 for every +1 it would normally add to Inspire Courage. "

Yeah. Anything that can be used to optimize Inspire Courage can be used to optimize Song of Fiery Battle. You can build a firre to work exactly like your classic Dragonfire Bard, since Song of Fiery Battle is functionally nigh-identical to Dragonfire Inspiration and explicitly accepts anything that buffs Inspire Courage. (Well, not exactly - you have to wait two levels longer for Inspirational Boost.) At high levels, it's actually slightly better since sacred damage can't be resisted.

The other songs mostly don't have this benefit, because they're much less supported than Inspire Courage anyway. However, all of them are transparent with bard songs for purposes of feat and PrC qualifications. Almost any feat or PrC a bard can qualify for on the basis of bardic music, so can the firre, and the firre can benefit from any published bardic-music PrC or feat I know of. This was a deliberate decision in writing the class.

Regarding the balance of the songs themselves: Song of Fiery Battle is about the same as Inspire Courage + Dragonfire Inspiration. Song of Blazing Hearts is countersong, but with much more common descriptors countered. Song of the Joined Bonfire has potentially higher bonuses than Inspire Competence but is much more situational, and Song of the Comforting Hearth is less powerful but easier to use than Fascinate/Suggestion. At least, that's how I designed them to be.


This ability is just underwhelming. Dazzled is an extremely weak condition, and the damage is piddly at all points of the progression. The blinding redeems it somewhat, but its still unreliable and easy to negate. The fact that it's a move action (or swift, later on) makes it a bit more useful, but this would only see use when the move action just wouldn't be used otherwise. Again, needs a buff. As a sidenote, "swiftened" should be changed to "swift action" for clarity in the table.

The damage is minor and the debuff is mild, but the ability is used with less-valuable actions. On any round where you're not moving (because you're casting a spell, for example), it's a small whack of free damage and a minor debuff tossed out. You should never be using Fiery Gaze as your primary attack; your standard actions should always be used for something better with Fiery Gaze tossed on as a bonus whenever an appropriate action isn't being otherwise used.

At medium BAB, the firre doesn't have iterative attacks until after this ability is a swift action. Before that level, if you're standing and slugging it out? Standard attack + Fiery Gaze. If you're casting a spell? Follow it up with Fiery Gaze. If you're starting a bard song? Add a Fiery Gaze on the end. You'd be surprised how often you have a spare move action before iterative attacks come online, and when they do come online you can use it as your swift action instead.


What happens if the Firre was wielding two weapons when activating Blazing Form?
Apart from that, this is pretty cool, but still not very good. The Firre loses the ability to empower allies, cast spells, really most of what makes the class playable in the first place. While the mobility granted is nice, the rest isn't too impressive. Without a build specifically for the purpose, this won't be much of a striker, and will be plagued by the low hit points on the chassis. The stances are fun, and make this somewhat better, but it could stand to lose some limitations.

The two-weapon thing could stand clarification. I'll work on that.

Regarding the trouble as a striker, go back to what I said earlier about Inspire Courage optimization working just fine on a firre. Now imagine your standard Dragonfire Bard type build: Song Of The Heart, Words of Creation, and that one badge I never remember the name of from MIC that gives +1 to Inspire Courage. Now consider that firre eladrin using his Fiery Battle swift-action empowerment so that each slam attack deals 1d6 base + 7d6 fire damage + whatever enchantment his weapon had. Is he still not much of a striker? (Granted, if you don't optimize it, it won't be as brutal as that, but that's true of anything. Leaving off Words of Creation, he's still dealing 1d6 + 4d6 per slam before any enchantments, Power Attack, or other bonuses.) In fact, it works out about the same at any given level of optimization as the popular TWF dragonfire bard - a little less damage output at high levels due to lack of iterative attacks, but the stances help make up for that and it isn't as feat-intensive.

As for why Blazing Form has its limitations on the use of your other abilities: because the original monster does, and I feel that's an important part of its flavor. Blazing Form is an "alternate mode" where the firre transforms from a buffer into a striker. I actually powered up Blazing Form significantly from the original monster's alternate form ability because, in its original form, it was basically never worth using.


I appreciate the feedback, but the important point you missed about Song of Fiery Battle really sort of throws off the whole thing.

Frog Dragon
2011-04-08, 04:19 PM
With the bit I missed, it's a fair bit more powerful, and the bardic music is pretty good. It also makes Blazing Form a bunch better, and a lot of my critiques are now kind of invalid.

However, I'd still suggest bumping the cha bonus up a bit, and giving bard skills.

In addition, how about a sort of "Lesser" blazing form at level 1, so the Firre has something other to do than singing and doing d4s with the gaze?

Benly
2011-04-08, 05:33 PM
With the bit I missed, it's a fair bit more powerful, and the bardic music is pretty good. It also makes Blazing Form a bunch better, and a lot of my critiques are now kind of invalid.

However, I'd still suggest bumping the cha bonus up a bit, and giving bard skills.

In addition, how about a sort of "Lesser" blazing form at level 1, so the Firre has something other to do than singing and doing d4s with the gaze?

The cha bonus I'm agreeable to, but I'll want to see how more feedback comes in. Skill points per level are in much the same situation. As for the skill list, I might expand it but probably not just refilling it with bard skills - the ones I took off are ones that don't feel appropriate to the firre.

Blazing form is at level 5 because it doesn't feel right to have blazing form that doesn't grant flight. That's one of the things that really strikes me as distinctive about the firre eladrin as a monster: the complete changeover in abilities from humanoid to fire forms.

As for level 1, a low-level firre is doing about the same thing a low-level bard is: he starts up a song, then wades in with his decent weapon proficiencies. In the firre's case, he tags on a little bonus damage with the gaze where the bard would be buffing up a bit better thanks to spells.

The most obvious improvement on that front would be just giving better armor proficiency or better HD to compensate for the lack of a bard's archery option - this would also address concerns about Blazing Form. I'm amenable to this, but again I'd like to wait for more feedback before I seriously tweak the chassis. (Full BAB would also be an option if I really wanted to highlight the offense-heavy fighting style, but d8 HD or medium armor is probably a better-rounded option.)


While I'm at it, I'm thinking of taking out the bardic-music cost of transforming to Blazing Form. Powering up would still churn through bardic music, but it feels like it might be a bit too much to also cost a shot of bardic music to change in the first place. Edit: I've taken out the bardic-music cost of changing between forms for the moment. We'll see how that works out.

Frog Dragon
2011-04-09, 01:53 AM
The thing is, the bard has his cantrips at that point. They are minor, and not that good, but they are valid options, and bring a little extra versatility to the table. The songs are somewhat better than the bard, but the bard has some extras in addition to singing at things as well. I feel the Firre needs something like this.

Edit: By bard skills, I meant the skill points, not the list.

TheGeckoKing
2011-04-09, 06:11 AM
Firre Eladrin
Class:


HD: d6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Firre Body, Versatile Performer, Bardic Music (Song of Fiery Battle, Song of Blazing Hearts)

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Fiery Gaze (1d4, dazzling), Eladrin resistances, +1 Cha

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Bardic Music (Song of the Joined Bonfire), spellcasting

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Fiery Gaze (1d6), +1 Cha

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Blazing Form

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Bardic Music (Song of the Comforting Hearth)

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|Fiery Gaze (2d6, swiftened), +1 Cha

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+6|Blazing Stance

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+6|Fiery Gaze (blinding)

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+7|Endless Song[/table]

Skill Points: (4 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The firre eladrin's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (None), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).


Proficiencies: The firre eladrin gains proficiency with light armor, shields (except tower shields), all simple weapons, and one martial melee weapon of her choice. A firre eladrin is also proficient with her blazing form's slam attacks.

Firre Body: The firre eladrin loses all other racial bonuses and becomes an outsider with the chaotic, good, and eladrin subtypes. It gains outsider traits, granting it darkvision out to 60'. Firre eladrin are medium sized creatures with a base land speed of 30'. A firre eladrin has Celestial and Common as starting languages, with additional languages for a high Int score as normal. Firre eladrin do not gain the normal benefits of the eladrin subtype, instead gaining the Eladrin Resistances ability at level 2.

Attribute Increase: The firre eladrin gains +1 to Charisma at levels 2, 4, and 7, for a total increase of +3 at 10th level.
Maybe give it some more Cha? +3 doesn't seem like much to me, thats all.

Versatile Performer (Ex): Firre are the living embodiment of the joy of art and performance. A firre with ranks in any Perform skill is considered to have ranks in Perform (Sing) and Perform (Dance) equal to her highest ranks in any Perform skill.

Bardic Music: Firre eladrin are the patrons and defenders of songs and art. Starting from first level, a firre gains the ability of bardic music. This works like the bard class ability in many ways, except that the firre learns different songs from a bard as it gains levels. A firre with levels in another class that grants bardic music may add together her class levels in classes that grant the ability for the purposes of calculating her songs' effectiveness and uses per day, although not for the purposes of songs known or other benefits. Because it is thus possible to continue advancing bardic music's effects past the 10 levels of the firre eladrin class, songs may list continuing effects for levels higher than 10. Unlike bards, firre must use a Perform skill that creates audible sound for their bardic music (such as song, poetry, or a musical instrument), as the firre are creatures of unrestrained joyful noise.
Song of Fiery Battle (Su): Firre are warriors as much as they are artists, and the first song they learn combines the two. A firre eladrin with 3 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill may fill her allies' blades with the heat of her joy in battle. All allies who can hear the firre perform deal an additional 1d6 fire damage with their weapons. At eighth level, and every six levels thereafter, an additional 1d6 fire damage is added. At level 9, the firre may choose to expend an extra usage of bardic music as a free action at any time during the Song of Fiery Battle to cause half the bonus damage added to become sacred damage rather than fire damage. At level 15, expending an extra usage of bardic music in this way causes all the bonus damage from Song of Fiery Battle to become sacred damage.
This song counts as Inspire Courage for purposes of feat and class prerequisites, and any spell, feat, or item that increases the effects of Inspire Courage may instead be used to increase the effects of the Song of Fiery Battle by an extra 1d6 for every +1 it would normally add to Inspire Courage.
Very cool idea. Mind you, the damage could become half sacred or something a bit earlier. Mind you, thats just a suggestion.
Song of Blazing Hearts (Su): The love of freedom burns like a pyre within the firre eladrin. A firre with 3 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill may use this song to light that pyre within her allies. The firre makes a Perform check every round that she maintains this song. Any creature within 30 feet of the firre (including the firre herself) who can hear the song and is subjected to a magical attack with the charm, compulsion, or evil descriptors or any magical attack from an evil summoned creature may use the firre's Perform check in place of its saving throw against such attacks if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check is higher. A creature already under the noninstantaneous effect of such an attack gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the Song of Burning Hearts, but must use the firre's Perform check result for the save. This song has no effect against effects that don't allow saves. The song may be sustained for a maximum of ten rounds.
Something that has occurred to me. If the Firre Eladrin already has Max Ranks (Or thereabouts), why bother with the rank requirements?
This song counts as Countersong for purposes of feat and class prerequisites, and any spell, feat or item that improves the effectiveness of Countersong may be used to improve the effectiveness of the Song of Blazing Hearts instead.
Song of the Joined Bonfire (Su): Many small flames can become an inferno, and many hearts working as one can overcome great obstacles. A firre of third level or higher with 6 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill can use this song to encourage cooperation towards a common goal. Allies within 30 feet who can hear the firre's song may Aid Another even on skill checks they would not normally be able to aid their ally with, such as untrained allies assisting with trained-only skills. They still must actively contribute to the effort in some manner; this song only ensures that such efforts can be constructive.
This song counts as Inspire Competence for purposes of feat and class prerequisites.
Seems a bit weak to me, to be honest. Not BAD, but needs a little buff.
Song of the Comforting Hearth (Sp): While an unchecked fire rages out of control, a warm hearth brings comfort and contentment. A firre of sixth level or higher with 9 or more ranks in an audible Perform skill can use this song, which is just as soothing. The firre makes a Perform check. All creatures within 30 feet that can hear the firre perform must make a Will save with DC equal to the firre's Perform check. Those which fail the save are affected as by calm emotions as long as the firre continues to perform. Maintaining this song requires concentration and may be continued for up to one round per level.
This song counts as a bard's Fascinate and Suggestion abilities for purposes of feat and class prerequisites.
Very Cool, although maybe you could allow the duration to be the amount of rounds playing +1, so the Firre isn't stuck there playing while everyone else runs away from the nasty orcs, or something.

Fiery Gaze (Su): The divine fire that burns within a firre can scorch an enemy who meets her gaze. Once per round, as a move action, a firre of second level or higher can unleash her inner fires on an enemy within 60 feet. This deals 1d4 fire damage to that enemy and dazzles it for one minute. The targeted enemy may make a Reflex save with a DC of 10 + 1/2 the firre's HD + the firre's Charisma bonus to halve the damage and prevent the dazzling. Fiery Gaze is ineffective against a blind enemy or one who successfully averts his eyes, as if against a gaze attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks).
This ability improves as the firre eladrin gains levels. At fourth level, Fiery Gaze deals 1d6 damage. At seventh level, it deals 2d6 damage; also at seventh level, Fiery Gaze may be used as a swift action rather than a move action but deals only 1d6 damage if used as a swift action. At ninth level, Fiery Gaze deals 2d6 damage as either a swift or move action, and the firre may choose to blind enemies rather than dazzling them. An enemy blinded by Fiery Gaze is blind for one round plus an additional round for every HD the firre eladrin has above 9 (so that a firre eladrin with 11 HD, for example, will blind an enemy for three rounds.) A successful saving throw against a blinding Fiery Gaze will prevent the blindness effect just as it would prevent the dazzling effect.
Cool. Might need a small damage boost, but otherwise cool.

Eladrin Resistances (Ex): Eladrin are resistant to certain sorts of harm. A second-level firre eladrin gains resistance to acid, cold, and electricity equal to her HD, to a maximum of 10. Also at second level, she becomes immune to petrification, and at 10 HD she becomes immune to electricity.
Standard stuff. Good.

Spellcasting: A firre eladrin casts spells as a bard two levels lower than her firre eladrin level. A firre eladrin's spells are divine spells, and she uses the divine bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) spell list; however, Charisma is still used to determine available spells, bonus spells, and save DCs. A firre eladrin may not cast any spells with the cold descriptor, but gains +1 caster level for spells with the fire descriptor. A firre who multiclasses as a bard may choose to continue this casting progression instead of beginning the bard casting progression from level 1.
The firre's spellcasting may be considered arcane spellcasting for the purposes of feats and prestige classes that either require bardic music as a prerequisite or improve bardic music.
Only a suggestion, but maybe you could add some special fire spells to the Firre's list. It's just I can't find that many fire spells on the Bard's list, and everyone loves a Fireball. :smalltongue:

Blazing Form (Su): The firre is a creature of fire and song. At fifth level, the firre can externalize the flames burning within her. As a move action, the firre transforms into the form of a dazzling pillar of fire. She may revert to humanoid form at any time as a move action. A firre eladrin's humanoid form and blazing form are both considered her "true form"; True Seeing or similar effects will reveal both forms at once, and she does not revert when losing consciousness. She also does not revert to humanoid form in an antimagic field; the act of transforming is supernatural, but both forms are entirely natural to the firre.
In blazing form, the firre gains a fly speed of 30 feet with perfect maneuverability. The firre gains two slam attacks, each dealing 1d6 damage + 1d6 fire damage. A firre in blazing form may not wield weapons or shields. However, any melee weapon wielded during the transformation is temporarily subsumed into the pillar of flames; its enchantment, if any, is transferred to the firre's slam attacks for the duration. If the firre is wielding two weapons when she transforms, she may choose to either apply one weapon's enchantments to both slams or apply the two different weapon's enchantments to her two slams separately. Magic items and armor other than weapons or shields worn by the firre are subsumed into the pillar of flames; they have no visible presence, but continue to confer their normal benefits and penalties. An eladrin in blazing form loses her natural cold resistance and gains fire resistance equal to her HD. An eladrin in blazing form sheds light as a bonfire. It is impossible to hide in blazing form except in circumstances where a six-foot-tall pillar of fire does not stand out (such as on the Elemental Plane of Fire or, perhaps, inside a volcano or burning building.)
A firre in blazing form may not cast spells, use her Fiery Gaze, or use bardic music. However, she gains certain abilities which may only be used in blazing form. A firre eladrin in blazing form who takes the full attack action may charge her slam attacks for one round with the power of her Fiery Gaze, adding fire damage to each slam attack equal to the fire damage dealt by her Fiery Gaze. As a swift action, she may expend a use of bardic music and empower her slam attacks for one round as if she were under the effects of her own Song of Fiery Battle for one round. She may extend this effect by expending an additional use of bardic music as a free action each subsequent round.
At eighth level, the blazing form's fly speed increases to sixty feet with perfect maneuverability. Additionally, the firre eladrin develops certain fighting stances called "blazing stances" which can be used only in blazing form. The firre selects one stance to enter when she assumes blazing form; she may subsequently change her active stance as a swift action. If she knows other stances (such as via the Martial Stance feat), she may not use them at the same time as a blazing stance.
At tenth level, the blazing form's fly speed increases to ninety feet with perfect maneuverability.
Pretty cool, actually.

Blazing Stances:
Dancing Ember Stance: The firre eladrin's movements become as light as an ember carried on the air currents, propelled by the turbulence of battle. Whenever the firre eladrin is attacked while in this stance, whether the attack hits or misses, she may make a 5-foot step. The space into which she steps must be one threatened by or adjacent to the enemy that attacked her if the attack was a melee attack. If the attack was a ranged attack, the step must be into another space within range of the attack and may not be into a space adjacent to the attacker unless the firre was already adjacent to her attacker at the beginning of the attack.
Seems a bit weak compared to the other stances.
Menacing Pyre Stance: The firre becomes as dangerous to the touch as a blazing inferno. Whenever she is attacked in melee, the attacker is affected as if the firre had used her Fiery Gaze on it, replacing the usual Reflex save with a Will save. Any given enemy may only be thus affected once per round, although any number of enemies per round may be affected by this stance as long as they all attack the firre in melee.
Cool.
Leaping Flames Stance: The firre moves as gleefully and unpredictably as crackling flames. While in this stance, the firre does not need to move in a straight line to charge and may use both her slam attacks at the end of a charge. In addition, when an enemy attempts to strike her with an attack of opportunity made for moving through its threatened area during a charge, she may make a Perform (Dance) check. If the result of the check is higher than the enemy's attack roll, the attack is considered not to have been made and no attack of opportunity is provoked by the firre's movement through that enemy's threatened space during that charge.
Awesomesauce.

Endless Song (Ex): The firre eladrin eventually becomes a perfect incarnation of the joy of music. A firre eladrin of tenth level or higher does not need to expend daily bardic music uses to perform bardic music. Other abilities which require the expenditure of bardic music uses (such as converting the Song of Fiery Battle's damage to sacred damage, empowering her Blazing Form's slam attacks, or activating bardic music feats) still require their normal expenditures.
Cool beans. A good capstone for a good class.



Comments

Firre eladrin, bards of the upper planes! There's a lot of different stuff here. Their bardic music abilities parallel actual bard abilities, although I tried to give them a distinct feel. Compared to bards, they lose some spellcasting, bardic knowledge, and most of the sneaky or sagacious stuff off the skill list. In return, they get Fiery Gaze for a little added damage and a debuff, and Blazing Form, which provides an alternate mode that turns off their buffing and spellcasting and turns them into fast, flying melee types with significant striker potential if built towards that purpose. I might drop the spellcasting further - I feel like it's important that they have some, but it isn't their main deal.


Changelog

4/7/11: Initial post.
4/8/11: Text clarification regarding TWF and Blazing Form.
4/8/11 (2): Removed cost to transform to Blazing Form. Added text regarding both forms being true forms (it's in the original creature, and it's charmingly weird).
4/9/11: Realized the fiery gaze chargeup in blazing form was broken as written. Ability rewritten to actually work.


Had a small look at it. Not much to say other than a few nit-picks and some suggestions. Keep it up, I guess.

Benly
2011-04-09, 10:26 AM
Had a small look at it. Not much to say other than a few nit-picks and some suggestions. Keep it up, I guess.

Thanks! I love getting feedback.



Maybe give it some more Cha? +3 doesn't seem like much to me, thats all.

All right. Since I've gotten two suggestions to do so, I'll probably end up boosting it to +4 total.


Something that has occurred to me. If the Firre Eladrin already has Max Ranks (Or thereabouts), why bother with the rank requirements?

Well, first off, it's theoretically possible that a firre won't have max ranks in Perform. (It would be kind of a terrible idea, but it can be done.) But the main thing is that this is how bardic music abilities are written and a few abilities that interact with bardic music key off of that - most prominently, Words of Creation relies on that bit of text being there for how much nonlethal damage it deals when you enhance a bard song with it.


Seems a bit weak to me, to be honest. Not BAD, but needs a little buff.

You could say the same about Inspire Competence. :smallsmile: How effective it is depends on how ready your group is to Aid Another on skill checks.


Very Cool, although maybe you could allow the duration to be the amount of rounds playing +1, so the Firre isn't stuck there playing while everyone else runs away from the nasty orcs, or something.

Whoops! I actually need bard-style durations for how long it lasts after the singing ends for all the songs. Thanks for pointing it out, will fix.


Only a suggestion, but maybe you could add some special fire spells to the Firre's list. It's just I can't find that many fire spells on the Bard's list, and everyone loves a Fireball.

The CL boost was kind of an afterthought. There aren't a lot on the bard list by default (Pyrotechnics is the only one that comes to mind) but firre can pretty easily qualify for PrCs that expand the spell list. That said, it probably wouldn't hurt anything to add the Fire domain to their class spell list or some such.



Seems a bit weak compared to the other stances.

Dancing Ember triggers each time there's an attack, hit or miss - if the firre is subjected to a full attack, that's potentially a lot of free 5' steps. It's essentially the "high-mobility" stance, particularly against ranged attackers. It's probably the stance most people will use least, but that's why you can switch stances as a swift action - none of them are for all the time. :smallsmile:

That said, something that comes to mind which might make it more useful (and more complicated to write up, but oh well) would be to add the option of ignoring the restrictions on what spaces can be stepped into, but delaying any 5' steps that do so until the end of the attacking opponent's action. The big concern there was not letting the firre disrupt a full attack by jumping away, but I can see the ability being more useful if it lets you spring away from an enemy when it finishes its attack on you.

Thanks again for the in-depth feedback!

TheGeckoKing
2011-04-09, 10:35 AM
Thanks! I love getting feedback.

No problem.


All right. Since I've gotten two suggestions to do so, I'll probably end up boosting it to +4 total.

Snazzy.

Well, first off, it's theoretically possible that a firre won't have max ranks in Perform. (It would be kind of a terrible idea, but it can be done.) But the main thing is that this is how bardic music abilities are written and a few abilities that interact with bardic music key off of that - most prominently, Words of Creation relies on that bit of text being there for how much nonlethal damage it deals when you enhance a bard song with it.

Standardization is good, I guess.

You could say the same about Inspire Competence. :smallsmile: How effective it is depends on how ready your group is to Aid Another on skill checks.

Now you mention that, Inspire Competence is just as "meh". It works, I guess.

Whoops! I actually need bard-style durations for how long it lasts after the singing ends for all the songs. Thanks for pointing it out, will fix.

No problem.

The CL boost was kind of an afterthought. There aren't a lot on the bard list by default (Pyrotechnics is the only one that comes to mind) but firre can pretty easily qualify for PrCs that expand the spell list. That said, it probably wouldn't hurt anything to add the Fire domain to their class spell list or some such.

Yay! More fire!

Dancing Ember triggers each time there's an attack, hit or miss - if the firre is subjected to a full attack, that's potentially a lot of free 5' steps. It's essentially the "high-mobility" stance, particularly against ranged attackers. It's probably the stance most people will use least, but that's why you can switch stances as a swift action - none of them are for all the time. :smallsmile:

That said, something that comes to mind which might make it more useful (and more complicated to write up, but oh well) would be to add the option of ignoring the restrictions on what spaces can be stepped into, but delaying any 5' steps that do so until the end of the attacking opponent's action. The big concern there was not letting the firre disrupt a full attack by jumping away, but I can see the ability being more useful if it lets you spring away from an enemy when it finishes its attack on you.

Oh, 5ft for EVERY attack! I read it as 5ft end-of, which made it quite rubbish when I read it. Carry on citizen. You saw nothing. :smalltongue:

Thanks again for the in-depth feedback!

Again, stuff's in green. And i'll have to learn to read properly.

Benly
2011-04-09, 10:59 AM
Standardization is good, I guess.

It's not so much about standardization for its own sake as it is about making the firre as compatible with existing bard spells, feats and items as possible. If the text wasn't there, Words of Creation and probably a few other things wouldn't interact properly with these abilities as they do with bardic music.


Oh, 5ft for EVERY attack! I read it as 5ft end-of, which made it quite rubbish when I read it. Carry on citizen. You saw nothing.

I modified it anyway. You can now delay the steps to the end of the opponent's turn and take them into non-threatened spaces if you like, making Dancing Ember even more maneuverable.

Edit: Another change because I got bored and had an idea! Appraise, Decipher Script, and K (history) have been added to their skill list and Versatile Performer has been expanded to Versatile Artist. Firre are celestial patrons of the arts - now they can be a sort of skillmonkey when it comes to art and art history. :smallsmile:

TheGeckoKing
2011-04-09, 11:28 AM
Fair enough, then. I've not poor experience with Bards (Don't like them much), so that didn't really occur to me. And the Dancing Ember stance sounds better now.

SPoD
2011-04-16, 09:30 PM
I've gotten the OK to raise the following request: I've created a Troglodyte class intended for this project, not knowing that the trog was included under "Reptilians." However, I would like to post mine anyway, because I believe it is a more comprehensive treatment of the troglodyte concept than the existing one, which just lumps it in with other reptilian humanoids.

For example, my version includes a variety of stench powers that the character gains as they gain Hit Dice, giving them more options than just turning on their sickening field or not. Also, it includes a way to keep your allies from being sickened by your stench, something that has always kept troglodytes from playing well with others. And I created some racial feats and a set of racial substitution levels for rogue to go along with the monster class.

So, can I post my version here?

Cogidubnus
2011-04-17, 09:50 AM
Anyone got anything more to say on the Brass Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10588318&postcount=1361)? I've tried to make it more active, but suggestions of how to do that better would be appreciated.

Frog Dragon
2011-04-17, 11:02 AM
Critique for the brass golem.


Monster Class
Source of Original Monster: MMII.

Class:


HD: D10

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+0| Built With Purpose, Brass Golem Body, Solid Brass, Hunter’s Weapon, +1 Str, +1 Wis

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+0| Tracker, Scent, Adaptation, Str +1

3rd|
+2|
+ 1 |
+ 1 |
+1| Toughened Alloys, Resilience, Str +1

4th|
+3|
+ 1 |
+ 1 |
+ 1 | Magic Resistance, Made for the Hunt, Str +1

5th|
+3|
+ 1 |
+ 1 |
+ 1 | Growth, Continued Adaptation Str +1,

6th|
+4|
+2|
+ 2 |
+ 2 | Maze, Know Thy Enemy, Str +1, +1 Wis

7th|
+5|
+ 2 |
+ 2 |
+ 2 | Goring Charge, Improved Adaptation, Str +1

8th|
+6|
+ 2 |
+ 2 |
+ 2 | Play Theseus, Sheer Force, Str +1

9th|
+6|
+3|
+3|
+3| Re-forged Purpose, Str +1

10th|
+7|
+3|
+3|
+3| Labyrinthine Home, Instrument of Destruction, Str +1
[/table]

Skill Points: (2 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The Brass Golem’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Survival (Wis). If constructs and undead here are not supposed to have class skills, why does it even have survival? Tracker flavor?


Proficiencies: The Brass Golem gains proficiency with its own natural weapons, simple and martial weapons, but no forms of armour or shields. I'd be inclined to give them a shield proficiency, even if the original creature didn't have it. It fits with the image of a brass golem, and this is basically an awakened version anyway.

Built With Purpose: All Brass Golems are built with a purpose. The Brass Golem has managed to shake off its (Typo here.), but it is still very single-minded. At 1st level, choose a single skill. It gains a +1 to all checks with this skill, but a -2 to one other skill. Pretty minor. I don't really like this, since it's just a "+1 to UMD, -2 to interstellar basketweaving".

Brass Golem Body: The Brass Golem loses all racial modifiers and receives the Construct type (which grants darkvision 60'), medium size, 30 ft. land speed, and a natural slam attack dealing 1d8+1.5x strength modifier damage.

The Brass Golem has all the characteristics of the construct type (which have been changed from the normal construct type, so it is highly advisable the below is read):

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, ability damage, fatigue or exhaustion, or energy drain.
Cannot heal damage on its own, although it can be healed.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Never being alive to begin with, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected. It can only be revived by a wish, limited wish, miracle, or by reconstructing the Brass Golem's body (requiring 1,000 pounds of brass- or the golem's previous body-, 2,500 gp worth of rare substances, and a DC 16 weapon-smithing or armour-smithing check) and then a reincarnate spell, which will always put the golem's soul into the new effigy.
Constructs do not breathe, eat, or sleep.


The Brass Golem gains natural armour bonus equal to his strength modifier. This natural armour bonus increases by 1 when the golem's size increases.
The Golem also gains +1 HP per HD. This bonus increases to +2 at 10 HD, +3 at 15 HD and+4 at 20 HD. The hp increases are retroactive.
The Brass Golem also has an electricity vulnerability, suffering +50% electricity damage from electric attacks. Magical fire damage heals the Brass golem 1 point of health (You should replace "health" with damage here. Yay for standardization!) per 3 damage it would normally do. An (Typo again. The article is "A".) Brass golem is otherwise immune to fire.

Solid Brass: From 1st level, the Golem’s solid metal body helps to protect it, providing an armour bonus equal to 2 + 1/3 HD. This armour may be enchanted, but more armour may not be worn over the top. So free AC. Neatly replaces a nat armor bonus. I can dig it.

Hunter’s Weapon (Su): From 1st level, the Golem can form a weapon of its choice that it is capable of wielding from its body as a full-round action. This weapon may be enchanted, and doing so costs the same amount as enchanting a normal weapon. Should this weapon ever be lost (but not broken or disjoined), then after 24 hours its essence melts back into the flow of magic to rejoin its Golem creator and is available to be formed again.
The Golem can form one Hunter's Weapon per 24 hours, but the weapon loses its edge when wielded by anyone other than the Golem and becomes useless. This could use some clarification. After being enchanted, can the type of weapon be changed? For example, You originally have a +2 Greatsword, but you want a Glaive now. When you form your glaive, is it a +2 weapon? Furthermore, I don't like the lack of TWF or shielf support. This could use some expansion as well.

Ability Score Increases: The Brass Golem gets a +1 bonus to its Wisdom score at 1st and 6th levels (+2 overall) to represent its artificial animal cunning.
It also gains a +1 bonus to Strength at every level after 1st (total +9). The Wis bonus is really small. I'd give it a bit more.

Tracker: At 2nd level, the Brass Golem gains Track as a bonus feat. In addition, it gains a bonus to Survival checks to track enemies equal to ½ its HD. More misc bonuses. This guy gets far too little active abilities.

Scent: At 2nd level, The Brass Golem gains the Scent ability, allowing it to track enemies by smell and detect the presence of creatures within 30ft. (need to link to SRD). See above.

Adaptation: The Golem’s time among mortals and thinking for itself has allowed it to develop its own unique abilities. At 2nd level, choose a special ability from the list below:
Aluminium Alloy: The Golem's brass is alloyed with aluminium, making it stronger. The Golem's armour bonus from Solid Brass is increased to +1/2 HD.
Preservative Layer: The Golem's brass body becomes covered with a transparent layer of oil, which feels like brass. Choose an energy type. The Golem gains energy resistance equal to half its HD against that energy type. If electricity is chosen, the Brass Golem's vulnerability is instead removed. This ability may be taken multiple times for different energy types.
Misleading: The Golem is an expert at tricking enemies. Gain Hypnotic Pattern as an SLA 1/HD/day. Gain Bluff as a class skill and a bonus to Bluff checks equal to 1/2 HD. You know, a bluffmonkey really doesn't seem to fit the archetype for me. And the other two options are completely passive.

Toughened Alloys: From 3rd level, the Brass Golem gains DR/Adamantium equal to half its HD. And more misc defenses? I feel like I'm looking at a monk now. Furthermore, if you take the misleading option, this is getting really schizophrenic.

Resilience: At 3rd level, choose a save. The Golem receives a bonus to this save equal to its Wisdom modifier. See above.

Magic Resistance: At 4th level, The Golem gains SR 11+HD Ditto. Also, for standardization, the ability name should be "Spell Resistance".

Made for the Hunt: From 4th level, as a free action once per turn, the Brass Golem may dedicate one creature as his hunted target. To designate his hunted target, the Golem must either be able to see them, have a piece of their hair, clothing or equipment, or know them well enough to recognise them on sight.
The Brass Golem may only have one hunted target at a time, and once a Golem selects a hunted target during an encounter, he cannot change it during that encounter until his target is defeated.. Against his hunted target, the Brass Golem gains a bonus to Survival checks made to track it equal to his HD. In addition, he may move double his normal move allowance whenever he moves towards his hunted target.
If the Brass Golem succeeds on a melee attack against his hunted target, they must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 +1/2 HD + Wis Modifier) or be sickened for one round. A hunted target that passes its save cannot be affected this round. Interesting, and sorta semi-active. Too little, too late though.

Growth: At 5th level, the Golem grows to Large size, as does its slam attack and Hunter's Weapon

Continued Adaptation: At 5th level, the Golem chooses one ability from the following:

Life-Leeching strike: The Golem's attacks now drain the life from its foes. Once per day per 5HD, when the Golem hits a target with an attack, it may choose to inflict 1d4 negative levels as well. These negative levels fade after 24 hours and may not result in permanent level loss.
Linked Weapon: The Golem becomes more attuned to its Hunter's Weapon, which gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every 4 HD it have, as though affected by a permanent Greater Magic Weapon with a CL equal to its HD. This enhancement bonus does not count towards the total enhancement bonus of its weapon when determining the cost to add enhancements to it.
Glamour of Brass: The Brass Golem can intensify the reflections on its own body, or place them upon another creature. It gains Shield of Faith as an SLA 1/day per 3 HD, and Blur as an SLA 1/day per 4 HD, with a CL equal to its HD.
These are actually, for the most part, active. Still, the last one is just SLA:s. Furthermore, Life-Leeching Strike seems the most powerful by a fair bit.

Know Thy Enemy: At 6th level, the Brass Golem's attacks against its hunted target improve. If a hunted target fails its save when hit by a Brass Golem's attack, it is staggered and sickened for one round, and is sickened even if it succeeds on the save. A rather effective debuff, actually. Still, it's passive, despite the fact that it's fairly simple to tie decisions into abilities like this.

Maze: At 6th level, the Golem gains the ability to cast Maze as a SLA once/5 HD/day. Unlike normal Maze, this SLA allows a Will save (DC = 10+1/2HD+Wis modifier), and the target gets a +2 bonus on the save. The Golem cannot currently enter the maze to track its target, but will be able to at 8th level. I'm not sure about this. On the other hand, it allows a save. On the other hand it's still a SoL. At least this relates to the original critter though.


Juggernaught Charge: At 7th level, the Golem is an expert at charging, using the weight of its metal body to power into its attack. To use this, make a charge attack. This attack deals damage as though it were one size larger, in addition to the standard benefits of a charge. So... more passive abilities. This doesn't do much.

Improved Adaptation: At 7th level, the Golem continue to develop its abilities. Choose one of the following special abilities, or two from the Adaptation and Continued Adaptation abilities:
Destructive Build: The Golem refocuses some of the energy powering it to its limbs, refining the brass muscles there. Add an additional 0.5x the Golem's strength modifier to damage with all melee weapons and composite bows.
Molten Core: The Golem's body is powered from inside by a core of molten metal. Increase its speed by 10ft. In addition, deal 1d6 extra fire damage with its slam and Hunter’s Weapon, and an additional 1d6 fire damage for every 4 HD.
Perfect Edge: The Golem's brass can become razor sharp at a moment's notice, making it especially deadly at the moment it attacks. The critical multiplier of the Golem's slam and Hunter's Weapon increases by one (e.g. x3 becomes x4), and its critical threat range increases by one (e.g. 20 becomes 19-20). This stacks with and applies before Keen, Improved Critical, and other similar effects. More completely passive stuff. The adaptation abilities seem to be the chief abilities here, so they should at least be active.

Play Theseus (Su): At 8th level, the Golem can now travel between its Maze and its current location as a move action a number of times per day equal to half its HD, although the Maze must still first be conjured with the SLA. This allows it to hunt any prey sent there. It gains an insight bonus to Survival checks made to track opponents in its Maze equal to its HD. I'm not even sure what this would be used for. Isolate opponents to murder them as individuals?

Sheer Force: At 8th level, the Brass Golem is a terrifying beast, capable of simply powering through its opponents by force of weight. Its slam and Hunter’s Weapon count as its alignment and Adamantium for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. A True Neutral player may choose an alignment to have his attacks count as, and other neutral golems may choose one alignment instead of neutral to apply. This is confusingly worded. You mean that an NG brass golem could, in addition to having his attacks count as good, also count them as lawful or chaotic (or evil. That's not prohibited by the wording)?

Re-forged Purpose:At 9th level, the Golem begins to recover some of the magic that first gave it purpose to live, and to focus this against its chosen enemies.
The Golem gains the Favoured Enemy ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm#favoredEnemy), as a Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/ranger.htm), and this qualifies him for any prestige classes or feats that require Favoured Enemy. Every 2nd HD after 9 (11, 13 etc.), the Golem gains a new Favoured Enemy and can increase one of its Favoured Enemy bonuses (including the Enemy just selected, if so desired), by 2. All my critiques are really boiling down to the same thing. None of this is active.

Labyrinthine Home: At 10th level, the Golem may Plane Shift into its labyrinth, bring a number of medium-sized creatures equal to its HD (each size increase doubles the number of creatures a character counts as), with each use of its Play Theseus ability. It may also now bring objects (including food, furniture etc.) with it to decorate its labyrinth and make it more homely. The Maze is now a permanent extra-dimensional space, rather than a conjuration, much like the space inside a Rope Trick. There are no negative effects for bringing other extra-dimensional spaces inside the Maze.
In addition, targets of the Golem's Maze SLA no longer gain a +2 bonus to the save. At 14 HD, Maze no longer allows a save. This is actually kind of cool. A mazey home for the magic robot guy. Still, while thematic and fun, it's schizophrenic with the rest of the class.

Instrument of Destruction: If the Golem's hunted target fails its save against the Golem's melee attack, it is stunned for one round. It is sickened and staggered even if it succeeds on the save.
At 16 HD, a hunted target that fails its save is killed outright. The Golem may only use this ability once per day per 6 HD, and chooses when to do so - any other failed saves simply result in the hunted target being stunned. This is a death effect. It is still sickened and staggered if it succeeds on the save. This is again stuff that absolutely should be a part of an active ability. As is, it's just making the golem's every attack into a SoL, and that's not very fun.

Comments in blue.

You seem to have focused on what the golem has, instead of what it can do. Furthermore, what abilities it does have are schizophrenic and don't really complement each other. It gets a host of useful defenses at the start, with no offense to speak of, before developing slabs of weird stuff, which don't really synergize with each other, or the passive abilities it has gained. The misleading thing doesn't seem to have anything to do with the monster itself, and is just random.

I recommend that the adaptation line is wholly turned into active abilities, at the very least, and that you figure out what this guy's role is and eliminate schizophrenia.

SPoD
2011-04-17, 12:56 PM
Hunter's Weapon is sort of pointless. The only effect it seems to have is that it lets you get your weapon back if you lose it in such a way that you can't retrieve it after the battle, but how often does that happen? In all the time I've played 3.5, I've never "lost" a magic weapon unless it was sundered or disjoined, the two things it doesn't work against. Unless the DM is an ass and has enemies disarm your weapon and then pick it up and throw it off a cliff or something. In which case this class ability is not going to help you anyway.

What if it allowed you to instantly reform your weapon if it has left your grasp, as a move action? That would allow you to overcome being disarmed, and possibly enable some sort of neat throwing weapon builds where you throw your blade and then reform a new one rather than worrying about retrieving it.

Also, what does "losing its edge when wielded by someone else" mean? Does that mean it loses its magical properties that you may or may not have given it? Or does that mean it loses the shape and can't be used as a weapon? If the latter, you should be clearer on the language. Not all weapons have edges; my brass golem might use a warhammer.

On Made for the Hunt, gaining the ability to move double your distance toward the target of the hunt doesn't work. What about when the hunt leaves your line of sight, or was never in it? The golem could just constantly try to move as fast as it can, and when it suddenly moves twice as fast, then he knows he's going the right direction. Given time, he could triangulate the target's whereabouts with no chance of failure, making tracking irrelevant. Better to say something like, "When charging the target, the brass golem may move four times its base movement rate (rather than two times)" because the rules already state that you need to see a target to charge it.

To make all the abilities that stagger or sicken or whatever more active, don't tie them to every attack the golem makes. Rewrite them to be more like: "The brass golem can make a Staggering Strike against his hunter's target as an attack action, once per day per Hit Die it possesses." Now the player has to make a choice whether or not to use the resource of his limited ability. That suddenly makes it active without really changing the idea.

SPoD
2011-04-17, 01:00 PM
Also, making something "more homely" means to make it uglier. You're looking for "more homey." :smallwink:

Lix Lorn
2011-04-17, 02:18 PM
Homely doesn't mean ugly. More like 'plain'.

SPoD
2011-04-17, 02:45 PM
Homely doesn't mean ugly. More like 'plain'.

It means (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homely) both. (http://thesaurus.com/browse/homely) Definition 1 is "lacking in physical attractiveness; not beautiful; unattractive." In other words, "ugly." Definitions 2 and 3 include the idea of "plain." The thesaurus lists both "ugly" and "plain" as synonyms. Either way, it's not what they meant when they used the word, which was my point.

Lix Lorn
2011-04-17, 05:54 PM
Huh. My mistake. Never found it as ugly before.

Makiru
2011-04-17, 06:09 PM
Okay, I've been patient enough. Anything to say about the kalabon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10661725&postcount=322)?

chrisrawr
2011-04-17, 10:59 PM
Okay, I've been patient enough. Anything to say about the kalabon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10661725&postcount=322)?



Breakdown(Ex): As a standard action, a kalabon can burst into a number of 1 HD Small kalabon equal to its HD, filling the space of the original kalabon and as many adjacent squares as needed. Divide it's current HP evenly by the number of new kalabon, rounding down, to get each individual's HP. All kalabon act on the same initiative, but are limited to a single move or standard action each. Piling back together is a bit harder than falling apart and takes a full-round action. Damage taken by individual kalabon is subtracted from the total HP of the combined creature. Kalabon created this way are considered dead at 0 HP and dissolve into a puddle of goo. A kalabon cannot split apart unless it is above 1/2 its max HP value.

A 1 HD kalabon can split into two kalabon with this ability, but kalabon formed using Breakdown cannot.


Do the little-you's that come from breakdown have actions after using a move action and breakdown? Also, how do you determine their attributes, skills, etc.?

I'm just imagining 20 little wizard Kalabon's casting HeightenedMaximized, Twinned Magic Missile at 24 caster levels each...

YouLostMe
2011-04-18, 01:06 AM
Abyssal Maw
[Pic Here]

Base Class
MMII p.57

HD: d8
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+1|+2|+2|+0|Abyssal Maw Body, Quick Snap, Ridiculous Lunge, Power Attack,
2|+2|+3|+2|+0|Demon, Blitz, Rend Fallen,, +2 Str[/table]
Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Climb (Str), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis). Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)

Class Stuff
Proficiencies: Abyssal Maws are proficient with their bite attack.

Abyssal Maw Body: The Abyssal Maw loses all other racial bonuses and gains outsider traits (basically 60' darkvision). Abyssal Maws are medium-size outsiders with a base speed of 30' and a bite attack that delivers 1d8+1.5StrMod. The Abyssal Maw gains a bonus to natural armor equal to its Con bonus. The Abyssal Maw gains +2 Strength and -2 to Intelligence or Wisdom (player's choice at character creation). Abyssal Maws know Abyssal, and may learn other native languages of Outsiders or Common by having a high Intelligence score.

Abyssal Maws may choose to move quadrupedally. Their bite attack is unchanged. Abyssal Maws retain functioning arms and hands with fine manipulation, in case you're dumb enough to give them a sword instead of letting them bite people.

At 2 HD and every 6 HD after, increase the bite attack damage of the Abyssal Maw by 1d8.

Quick Snap (Ex): When an Abyssal Maw makes a full attack using only its bite attack, it may choose to gain one extra bite attack. If it does so, all attacks it makes in this round are at a -4 penalty.

At 7 HD, an Abyssal Maw only takes a -3 penalty for using Quick Snap. At 12 HD, it may make 3 attacks with Quick Snap. At 16 HD, an Abyssal Maw suffers no penalty for using Quick Snap.

Ridiculous Lunge (Ex): During a turn when an Abyssal Maw uses a move action to move 10' or more, it increases its reach by 5' for any natural weapons it has until the beginning of its next turn.

At 12 HD, an Abyssal Maw loses the above ability and gains a permenant +5' reach for any natural weapons it possesses. At 16 HD, an Abyssal Maw may make one 10' step per turn instead of a 5' step.

Demon: A level 2 Abyssal Maw becomes immune to poison and gains resistance to electricity equal to its HD, with resistance to acid, cold, and fire equal to half its HD. Abyssal Maws have telepathy out to 30' + 10'/HD.

An Abyssal Maw also gains the [Evil] and [Lawful] subtypes, and its natural attacks and any weapon they wield count as being evil and lawfully aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

Rend Fallen (Ex): An abyssal maw loves to tear into its downed foes. It automatically deals its bite damage any foe it drops with a melee attack.

Blitz: A level 2 Abyssal Maw gains 2 + 1/3HD insight bonus to initiative. In addition, an Abyssal Maw can choose to gain Pounce or the Leap Attack feat (Complete Adventurer).

Ability Increase: At level two, an Abyssal Maw increases its Strength by +2.

Comments
Sooo I know I'm supposed to call monsters before I get to them. But I had a flash of interest, and those usually don't last long. . . so I got to this one quickly. I made sure it wasn't on the Finished, Abandoned, or Interest lists though!... please don't hurt me. :smalleek:

Abyssal Maws reportedly "serve as shock troops in evil armies". Since their description was a tad weak, I added shock-trooper-ish stuff. I think it might be a bit WAY to much... please tell me.

The end result ends with approximately the same stats as it would if you used the non-elite stat array. There's a missing -2 to a mental stat, and a missing +2 to Con. But tossing around bonuses is apparently not something this thread finds good, so I minimized the +stat stuff.

Changelog
25 April 2011: Deleted Shock Trooper, added Ridiculous Lunge and Quick Snap to level 1. Moved Rend Fallen to level 2. Changed Blitz to give a scaling Init bonus and provide Pounce or Leap Attack.

17 April 2011 version: Abyssal Maw
[Pic Here]

Base Class
MMII p.57

HD: d8
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+1|+2|+2|+0|Abyssal Maw Body, Rend Fallen, Shock Trooper
2|+2|+3|+2|+0|Devil, Blitz, +2 Str[/table]
Class Skills ((4 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis). Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)

Proficiencies: Abyssal Maws are proficient with their bite attack.

Abyssal Maw Body: The Abyssal Maw loses all other racial bonuses and gains outsider traits (basically 60' darkvision). Abyssal Maws are medium-size outsiders with a base speed of 30' and a bite attack that delivers 1d8+1.5StrMod. The Abyssal Maw gains a bonus to natural armor equal to its Con bonus. The Abyssal Maw gains +2 Strength and -2 to Intelligence or Wisdom (player's choice at character creation).

Abyssal Maws may choose to move quadrupedally. Their bite attack is unchanged. They retain functioning arms and hands with fine manipulation, in case you're dumb enough to give them a sword instead of letting them bite people.

At 2 HD and every 6 HD after, increase the bite attack damage of the Abyssal Maw by 1d8.

Rend Fallen (Ex): An abyssal maw loves to tear into its downed foes. It automatically deals its bite damage any foe it drops with a melee attack.

Shock Trooper (Ex): In the first round of combat, an Abyssal Maw gains a +10' bonus to speed and gains a +2 morale bonus to any attack during their turn after a charge (in addition to the +2 bonus that charging already provides)

Devil: A level 2 Abyssal Maw becomes immune to poison and gains resistance to electricity equal to its HD, with resistance to acid, cold, and fire equal to half its HD. Abyssal Maws have telepathy out to 30' + 10'/HD.

An Abyssal Maw also gains the [Evil] and [Lawful] subtypes, and its natural attacks and any weapon they wield count as being evil and lawfully aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

Blitz: A level 2 Abyssal Maw gains +2 to initiative. For the first round of combat that an Abyssal Maw participates in, treat its Initiative at 10 higher. In addition, Abyssal Maws gain the Pounce ability.

Ability Increase: At level two, an Abyssal Maw increases its Strength by +2.

Hyudra
2011-04-18, 01:38 AM
Just glancing over it, the biggest issue with the Abyssal Maw is that it's too passive. It doesn't give the player any tools to do anything. I mean, it's cool on paper, you bite stuff, you're devilish and you've got a mean charge... but at the end of the day, the player is going to be stuck with charges, standard action attacks, full round attacks and trip/sunder/bullrush/etc combat maneuvers.

For the 2 levels you're in that class -- 27 encounters assuming typical exp, Some 50-80 rounds assuming they're all combat based encounters (and you can't do much outside of combat) -- you're going to be stuck with the boring boring basics. That rates it pretty darn low on the playability rating, if you get what I'm saying.

Also, you gave it full BAB and a bonus to Str. That kinda goes against thread standards.

And, as far as I'm aware, you haven't applied for a license.

And it needs a picture.

Makiru
2011-04-18, 01:40 AM
Do the little-you's that come from breakdown have actions after using a move action and breakdown? Also, how do you determine their attributes, skills, etc.?

I'm just imagining 20 little wizard Kalabon's casting HeightenedMaximized, Twinned Magic Missile at 24 caster levels each...

Thank you. This is why I wanted some feedback. I knew I was going to miss a bunch of things when I wrote that ability, and I wanted to see if people found anything.

Attributes and skills would be the same as the base character. Since breakdown is a standard action, all the little guys would get a move action, unless you moved before using breakdown, in which case they get nothing.

In the ability descriptor, I said that all the kalabon, while this ability is active, are 1HD kalabon, meaning no class features, BAB, or save progression beyond what is given in the monster class. Feats would be effectively unchanged simply because that would be a rules headache, but would still only count as a 1HD creature.

So, what that means is that you wouldn't get a mass of kalabon all casting spells all on the same turn, since they wouldn't have spellcasting. They could perform skill checks and all aid a single kalabon (since having more minds would make the check easier, even if they are all your own), some could move into flanking and keep an enemy trapped, they could qualify for Swarmfighting or Dual Attack (whatever that feat from Dragon Compendium was called), etc. Basically, they can't exploit things based on class features, but they could exploit things based on feats, skills, and skill tricks.

Hopefully, that clears up some of the things that you would have been confused with. I'll change the ability writeup within the next few days to reflect this information.

~~~~~~~
As far as the Abyssal Maw is concerned:


Spoiler tags for the class, right now, no exceptions. In fact, formatting in general needs to be redone. There is a link in the first post for it (too lazy to relink).

We're trying to stay away from ability penalties in this project, except in very special circumstances (the Purple Worm's Dumb Brute ability comes to mind).

Subtypes should be had at 1st level, while the rest of the outsider resistances and DR penetration would be in the (Demon/Devil) ability.

Also, it really should be Demon instead of Devil. I'm just saying this before flavor sticklers worse than I take a look at this.

Lots of passive abilities. This is a bit of a no-no in the project. Giving players options just besides "I attack" makes it more fun. I know the original Abyssal Maw was all passive abilities, but you are encouraged to make things up.

Abilities (beyond "Devil" and bite attack) don't scale. Just off the top of my head, the initiative bonus from Blitz could be +1/+2 per HD instead of a flat +2. Again, go wild and make things up.

No grammatical errors as far as I can see, though. That's one thing you have going for you, at least.

What's it going to use Pounce for? It only has one natural attack, so there would be no full-attack routine to apply it to, unless (as you said) someone was dumb enough to give the maw a sword instead of letting it bite people. I guess it would be useful if you were going into Totemist right afterward and
focused on getting as many NAs as possible, but it makes no sense on the class as is.


In summary, it needs work. The "shell" of the class is there, it just needs better fleshing out. It's odd for me to be saying these things, since I'm usually the one in your position.

EDIT: Hyudra'd

Hyudra
2011-04-18, 01:54 AM
You were apt in a broader range of stuff than I, Makiru. I wouldn't say you were "Hyudra'd".

In reference to the general project - as two or three people have complained about lack of responses - I haven't gone over more recent submissions because I've been hellaciously busy with real life stuff. I'm self employed and I made a grave miscalculation as far as picking what work projects I'd be doing. Long of it short, I took on some jobs that were promising but involved, expecting that I could shoulder a greater workload since my significant other is done with university for the term and can handle the domestic stuff. The latter half of that plan fell through... and my house started falling apart. Cue a week and a half of 12+ hour workdays with the background accompaniment of power tools and hammers for a large part of 'em.

Chances are I'm probably easiest to get ahold of via. AIM if you have questions or just want to talk monster classes. I'd relish the distraction. As far as my sitting down to do a batch critique, I'm just gonna say that if it happens in the next 5ish days, it'll be despite the stuff I'm dealing with RL, not because of any lapse in it.

SPoD
2011-04-18, 09:59 AM
Breakdown(Ex): As a standard action, a kalabon can burst into a number of 1 HD Small kalabon equal to its HD, filling the space of the original kalabon and as many adjacent squares as needed. Divide it's current HP evenly by the number of new kalabon, rounding down, to get each individual's HP. All kalabon act on the same initiative, but are limited to a single move or standard action each. Piling back together is a bit harder than falling apart and takes a full-round action. Damage taken by individual kalabon is subtracted from the total HP of the combined creature. Kalabon created this way are considered dead at 0 HP and dissolve into a puddle of goo. A kalabon cannot split apart unless it is above 1/2 its max HP value.

A 1 HD kalabon can split into two kalabon with this ability, but kalabon formed using Breakdown cannot.

Questions/Thoughts:
How many Small kabalons fit in one 5x5 space? If the answer is "one," then how do they put themselves back together?
If there are more kabalons than can fit in one 5x5 space when the breakdown happens, they go to adjacent spaces. What if all adjacent spaces are occupied by other creatures (or walls, etc.)?
What about equipment? Does it duplicate? Or are they all stuck without it? And if none of them have the equipment, where did it go?
What happens if only some of the kabalons are able to reunite, because one is paralyzed, or falls down a hole, or is petrified, etc.? I think the player should have the option to "write off" any one kabalon that can't get back to the group when they make the decision to join back up. They would lose the hit points they had invested in that kabalon, but they wouldn't be prevented from getting their other class levels back.
What if there is only one kabalon left? Does it just spontaneously become the full character again, or does it have to spend a full-round action reassembling itself when there's only one of it?
I think it would make this ability easier to deal with if you defined a "kabalon spawn" as a separate form of monster. In other words, the player would have a separate set of stats that show what their kabalon spawn look like, and they always have the same skills, one feat, etc. every time they are formed. Only their hit points will change. Maybe the spawn get Swarmfighting as a bonus feat, too.

-----------------

Since no one has responded to my request to post my troglodyte class, I'm going to post it tomorrow unless someone objects and says, "No, we don't want it here."

Hyudra
2011-04-18, 10:10 AM
Please wait until you hear from Gorgon. He's busy, so it might be a short while. Give it a little more time, for the sake of propriety.

You said you were working on several. Post one that isn't a remake?

Look at it this way: If you did post monsters and put in the work it takes to get them finalized, would you want someone to, at a time when you're busy, repost it and quickly get it done before you had a chance to say otherwise or address the same issues they're trying to?

People get attached to the work they do.

SPoD
2011-04-18, 10:37 AM
Please wait until you hear from Gorgon. He's busy, so it might be a short while. Give it a little more time, for the sake of propriety.

You said you were working on several. Post one that isn't a remake?

No. Troglodyte is the only one that is finished, and I'm not going to waste time working on any others until I am certain that participating in this project in a fair and unbiased manner will actually be allowed. Right now, this is the second time that my attempts to share something I've made is met with you telling me that I can't due to arbitrary fiat.

The bottom line is, Gorgon does not own this thread; neither do you. I'm displaying courtesy that I am not required to (by the rules of the message board) by even asking the question of whether or not anyone would object. I'm not going to wait indefinitely for an answer to that question. If you want Gorgon to answer the question so badly, PM or IM him and tell him to come answer it.


Look at it this way: If you did post monsters and put in the work it takes to get them finalized, would you want someone to, at a time when you're busy, repost it and quickly get it done before you had a chance to say otherwise or address the same issues they're trying to?

I wouldn't care at all. Two versions of the same monster can exist simultaneously. Let the DMs and players choose which one they want to use.

I certainly don't expect that once I post something to a public message board that I then have veto power over anyone else posting something similar a year later.


People get attached to the work they do.

Yes, I know. Which is why I'm getting very annoyed that you are repeatedly blocking me from posting my work on a message board that does not acknowledge ownership of threads.

Cogidubnus
2011-04-18, 12:17 PM
It seems, from the fact that this argument is repeatedly emerging, that allowing more than one version of a monster to exist, even on the front page, is the best way to avoid repeatedly diverting the thread from its goals.

Although as an aside, while Gorgon and Hyudra don't own the thread, they do decide what goes into those lists at the front of it, so it'd be damn painful if they didn't like your idea.

SPoD
2011-04-18, 12:26 PM
It seems, from the fact that this argument is repeatedly emerging, that allowing more than one version of a monster to exist, even on the front page, is the best way to avoid repeatedly diverting the thread from its goals.

Although as an aside, while Gorgon and Hyudra don't own the thread, they do decide what goes into those lists at the front of it, so it'd be damn painful if they didn't like your idea.

Well, that's their right. Those posts are theirs to do with as they please. However, I think that the decision not to include something in their opening posts should be made AFTER they see it, rather than preventing it from being posted at all. There's no reason people couldn't post their alternate versions first, and then everyone decides on whether it is good enough to be listed. At least that way, it doesn't feel like a few posters are trying to stifle the rest of the community.

chrisrawr
2011-04-18, 12:55 PM
Abyssal Maw
[Pic Here]

Base Class
MMII p.57

HD: d8
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+1|+2|+2|+0|Abyssal Maw Body, Rend Fallen, Shock Trooper
2|+2|+3|+2|+0|Devil, Blitz, +2 Str[/table]
Class Skills ((4 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis). Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)
That's uh, a lot of skills. Are you sure they can craft? I can't see these guys sitting down long enough to whittle out a good basket, but that's just me. I could be mistaken.
Proficiencies: Abyssal Maws are proficient with their bite attack.

Abyssal Maw Body: The Abyssal Maw loses all other racial bonuses and gains outsider traits (basically 60' darkvision). Abyssal Maws are medium-size outsiders with a base speed of 30' and a bite attack that delivers 1d8+1.5StrMod. The Abyssal Maw gains a bonus to natural armor equal to its Con bonus. The Abyssal Maw gains +2 Strength and -2 to Intelligence or Wisdom (player's choice at character creation).
Languages?
Abyssal Maws may choose to move quadrupedally. Their bite attack is unchanged. They retain functioning arms and hands with fine manipulation, in case you're dumb enough to give them a sword instead of letting them bite people.

At 2 HD and every 6 HD after, increase the bite attack damage of the Abyssal Maw by 1d8. At level 20, they'll get 5d8 damage, with magic properties coming from a necklace or amulet, and no iterative attacks. Maybe give them Improved Grab, or a poison that scales?

Rend Fallen (Ex): An abyssal maw loves to tear into its downed foes. It automatically deals its bite damage any foe it drops with a melee attack.
Good for killing blow, but you could make this active - "As an immediate action, you may take a 5-foot step and make an attack against an opponent who has been downed within the last turn. This does not count against your number of attacks or 5-foot steps per round."

Shock Trooper (Ex): In the first round of combat, an Abyssal Maw gains a +10' bonus to speed and gains a +2 morale bonus to any attack during their turn after a charge (in addition to the +2 bonus that charging already provides)"During a charge," instead of "after" it. "In the first round of combat, an Abyssal Maw gains a +10' bonus to speed, and a +2 morale bonus to any attack during a charge." - this could also be made into a scaling ability; fix the lack of iterative attacks, perhaps? An extra attack at -2, or the ability to continue charging with a direction change similar to the city-scape barbarian?

Devil: A level 2 Abyssal Maw becomes immune to poison and gains resistance to electricity equal to its HD, with resistance to acid, cold, and fire equal to half its HD. Abyssal Maws have telepathy out to 30' + 10'/HD.

An Abyssal Maw also gains the [Evil] and [Lawful] subtypes, and its natural attacks and any weapon they wield count as being evil and lawfully aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

Blitz: A level 2 Abyssal Maw gains +2 to initiative. For the first round of combat that an Abyssal Maw participates in, treat its Initiative at 10 higher. In addition, Abyssal Maws gain the Pounce ability.
Pounce with... no other attacks? Perhaps Leap Attack would be better? Or Power Attack? As well, maybe scale initiative with HD?
Ability Increase: At level two, an Abyssal Maw increases its Strength by +2.

Comments
Sooo I know I'm supposed to call monsters before I get to them. But I had a flash of interest, and those usually don't last long. . . so I got to this one quickly. I made sure it wasn't on the Finished, Abandoned, or Interest lists though!... please don't hurt me. :smalleek:

Abyssal Maws reportedly "serve as shock troops in evil armies". Since their description was a tad weak, I added shock-trooper-ish stuff. I think it might be a bit WAY to much... please tell me.

The end result ends with approximately the same stats as it would if you used the non-elite stat array. There's a missing -2 to a mental stat, and a missing +2 to Con. But tossing around bonuses is apparently not something this thread finds good, so I minimized the +stat stuff.

Changelog
Still awaiting critique.


Critique in green.

Hyudra
2011-04-18, 01:50 PM
Well, that's their right. Those posts are theirs to do with as they please. However, I think that the decision not to include something in their opening posts should be made AFTER they see it, rather than preventing it from being posted at all. There's no reason people couldn't post their alternate versions first, and then everyone decides on whether it is good enough to be listed. At least that way, it doesn't feel like a few posters are trying to stifle the rest of the community.

The issue is that when we have had such happen, it's been the ground for some of the most fractious arguments you could imagine, with the thread being filled with pages of argument while two people who are very invested in their own work argue for why their work is superior. All of that plus the added issue of having to critique and review work that's already been submitted (and this is the key reason we don't do the 'multiple creatures of the same type on the front page) is... well, it's just Gorgondantess and myself who wind up having to deal with the brunt of it.

I'm all for creativity, believe me. It's just... we've been down these roads before and it's yet to end well.

So I'll say this: If you want to post it, please feel free. But if we say it's not so much better than what already exists that it's not worth critiquing, or if Gorgon speaks up and says he'd rather change the Troglodyte to respond to perceived criticisms, then please understand.


And a change of subject...

Revisions made to the Frostwind Virago, April 18, 2011:
Frostwind Virago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10568242#post10568242):
Added Frostwind Virago Body to the table under 1st level. Was absent.
For the purposes of meeting feat and prestige class prerequisites, Frostwind Powers count as being invocations and spells of an equivalent level.
Ditto for Frostbite Touch being considered an Eldritch Blast.
Frigid Demesnes tweaked. It now allows no saving throw (less rolls and a bit of a boost in power) and the nonlethal damage is equal to the number of steps below comfortable, with an extreme effect (cold damage and exhaustion/paralysis) if it would drop the temperature below Extreme. Text about the range and scope of the effect clarified, the Frostwind Virago gets the option of not activating Frigid Demesnes and the effect overall has been made more concise and easy to apply.
Kiss of the Frozen simplified. It no longer affects a maximum 1 ally per hour, and the penalty to the Frostwind Virago has been removed. An offensive option has been added, allowing the Frostwind Virago to curse a helpless or grappled foe, causing them to suffer double cold and nonlethal damage.
Embrace of the Frozen: Renamed Shaken to Shivering, which is essentially the same thing except not a morale effect and it doesn't graduate to fear/panic, etc.
Embrace of the Frozen: Noted that the snow clouds it creates obscure line of sight. This makes its use a little more tactical/strategic-based, as the Frostwind Virago can obscure line of sight for herself or her allies (as well as foes).
Noted under Frostbite Touch I that the physical damage option precludes use of other augmentations, to avoid some unintended interactions.
Moved the 'you can convert nonlethal damage to Dexterity damage' option from Frostbite Touch II to Frostbite Touch III, which was otherwise a little dry (Frostbite Touch II has a tactical depth to it, while III was just flat passive gain). Added a progression so that, at 15HD, the conversion is 1 Dexterity damage for every 2 points of nonlethal damage removed, and at 20HD, it becomes 1:1.
Clarified Faerie Noble's Mirage Arcana effect to make it more flexible. If she's depicting snow, ice or a frozen structure, it extends the duration of cold weather, and cold weather, in turn, prevents the Mirage Arcana from ending so long as it lasts. This makes it easier to maintain the effect.
Also added a bit under the 'making it permanent' section for Faerie of the Court; you can let the effect lapse, but if a creature intrudes on the area before it does lapse or if someone disbelieves it, you lose your progress.
Added a link to the Frostwind Powers post under Frostwind Powers (Least).
Frostwind Powers: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10568249#post10568249)
Finished sentence under Boreal Whirlwind. Foes moving into the whirlwind are damaged and disoriented as though they had been struck by the moving version.
Capricious Winds now imposes a penalty on ranged attacks (double penalty for ranged weapons).
Specified that items created with Frozen Fabrication must be rigid, and gave an example.
Clarified that the Icicles invocation requires a ranged touch attack roll, rather than 'just her BAB'
Many clarifications made to Seal of Ice, essentially specifying what spells can be affected and how, adding durations and clarification on how the spells are made visible (essentially clarifying that it's like everyone had detect magic for the purposes of viewing the spell.
Changed Cold Snap so it deals damage once for every square that has ice in it. No 100's of marbles exploding for 1000d6+ damage.
Made a note at the top of the list that all saves are cha based, yadda yadda, and removed the repetitive mention of Save DCs, except where funny stuff happened (such as where it was the DC for a strength check)
Changed Frostflight from offering a fly speed of 10' per 3HD to 10' per 2HD.
Hailing Volley: upped the damage from 1d6 piercing/cold per HD to 1d6 piercing per HD and 1d6 cold per HD.
Ice Sculpture now only fatigues/exhausts if the Frostwind Virago already has a monster summoned with it.
Clarified text in Roaring Squall to specify that the squall is a small creature for the purposes of attacks of opportunity.
Zephyr now, in addition to being able to be spent for temporary flight, grants you another two options - a bonus to AC against ranged attacks or a bonus to an attack roll against a flying enemy.
Added another qualifier to Cryokinesi, so anyone affected by one of the Frostwind Virago's powers (SLA or Frostwind Power) also qualifies to be thrown around.
Mistral Attendant is now a Lesser Frostwind Power, and scales up more gradually in how many unseen servants you can have (From a flat maximum of 3 to 1 per 6HD)
Made it so that Snowflurry Step doesn't count the first 5' of movement (to avoid having it be limited to an awkward distance of 90' or 95'). The chance is now halved again if both the starting and destination square are covered in snow or ice (to 2.5% per 5' moved).
Avalanche is moved from Elite Frostwind Power to Greater. I'm not changing the line of effect (which draws from enemy to snow) because the reverse option is overly confusing, suggesting one should draw a line for every instance of snow, which would be incredibly time consuming. It's a check, more than anything. I added a bit to one sentence to clarify such.
Added Still of Winter to make up for the absence of Avalanche. This is a targeted burst effect that slaps an augmented Slow effect onto all foes in the area. All actions made by Stilled foes are one step more difficult to make (Move actions are now standard, standard actions are full-round, and so on).
Replaced Crack the Ice with a new effect. It now lets the Frostwind Virago crack the ice/snow and create a pool of icy water. Being submerged causes Str and Cold damage.

When this pool is created, there's a blast of water. Both the blast & submersion involving being sucked down: If you're caught in the blast, you're sucked down. If you fail the reflex save, you're sucked down further. If you fail the Swim/Strength check, you're sucked down even more. Topping it off, since it's a portal to a (cold and watery) realm of the Faerie/Feywilds, if you're still beneath when the effect ends, you're not going to be sleeping in your own bed anytime soon (if you can even get out).

Took me a while to get around to this. I like where it's at though.

SPoD
2011-04-18, 02:03 PM
All of that plus the added issue of having to critique and review work that's already been submitted (and this is the key reason we don't do the 'multiple creatures of the same type on the front page) is... well, it's just Gorgondantess and myself who wind up having to deal with the brunt of it.

Only because you've set yourself up to be the gatekeepers. You can't make yourself the chokepoint of all discussion and then complain that you have to read all the discussion. If the burden is too great, or if real life is keeping you away from the thread, then you have a responsibility to recuse yourself from the process temporarily and let it continue without you, lest the whole thing get dragged down by your scheduling issues.


I'm all for creativity, believe me. It's just... we've been down these roads before and it's yet to end well.

So I'll say this: If you want to post it, please feel free. But if we say it's not so much better than what already exists that it's not worth critiquing, or if Gorgon speaks up and says he'd rather change the Troglodyte to respond to perceived criticisms, then please understand.

I will understand, insofar as I will respect your right not to list it. However, I have confidence that it is substantially different than the existing version. All I wanted was the right to let it be seen.

I will post shortly.

SPoD
2011-04-18, 02:10 PM
Troglodyte
Image URL Goes Here!
Monster Class
Source: Monster Manual/SRD

Class:
HD: D6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+0|Troglodyte Body, Camouflage Skin, Darkvision 60 ft., Stench Musk, +2 Con[/table]

Skill Points: (4 + Int modifier) per level, x4 at first level.
Class Skills: The [Monster]’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), and Swim (Str).

Proficiencies: The troglodyte gains proficiency with their natural weapons as well as with all simple weapons and shields.

Troglodyte Body: The troglodyte loses all other racial bonuses and becomes a Humanoid (Reptilian). It gains humanoid traits. Troglodytes are initially Medium-sized creatures with a base land speed of 30 feet, possessing two primary claw attacks that deal 1d4 + Str modifier damage and a secondary bite attack that deals 1d4 + 1/2 Str modifier damage. They also have a natural armor bonus equal to one-half their Con modifier. A Troglodyte has Draconic as a starting language, with additional languages for a high Int score as normal.

Attribute Increase: The troglodyte gains +2 to Constitution at 1st level.

Camouflage Skin: The skin of a troglodyte can change color, blending into its surroundings like a chameleon. A troglodyte gains a racial bonus to its Hide skill checks equal to one-half its Hit Dice. This bonus doubles in rocky or underground settings.

Darkvision: At 1st level, a troglodyte gains darkvision with a range of 60 feet. This increases to 90 feet when the troglodyte has 2 or more Hit Dice.

Stench Musk (Ex): The troglodyte is a foul-smelling creature that constantly produces a strong-smelling musk that is repugnant to all other living creatures. All troglodytes can spray the liquid around starting at 1st level, creating a rancid smell that weakens their foes, but the most powerful troglodytes learn many techniques for using this wholly unique substance. As the troglodyte gains Hit Dice, its musk increases in potency and versatility, as listed below. The DC for any saving throws against a troglodyte's stench is 10 + 1/2 their total Hit Dice + their Constitution modifier. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected by most of a troglodyte's stench powers, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws. The troglodyte itself is immune to all stench musk effects from it or any other troglodyte. A troglodyte can use its stench musk powers 1/day per Hit Die it possesses, plus once per day per point of Constitution bonus. The effects that a troglodyte can bring about with its stench musk are as follows:
Stench Squirt: At 1 Hit Dice, a troglodyte can, as a swift action, secrete stench musk from special pores. All living creatures that need to breathe (except troglodytes) standing within 10 feet at the moment that the musk is secreted must succeed on a Fortitude save or be sickened for a number of rounds equal to twice the trog's Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round). After the secretion takes place, the musk becomes inert and does not have any further effect. This effect expends 1 daily use of the stench musk power.
At 2 Hit Dice, this secretion affects all creatures within 30 feet.
At 6 Hit Dice, this secretion affects all creatures within 60 feet.
At 12 Hit Dice, this secretion affects all creatures within 90 feet.
Anti-Musk: At 2 Hit Dice, the troglodyte can produce a special "anti-musk" secretion in small quantities each day. This special fluid can nullify the properties of its own musk if the vapors from it are inhaled. Any creature that smears a bit of this goo below their nose becomes immune to all of the troglodyte's stench powers for 24 hours. The troglodyte produces enough anti-musk each day to dose one creature, +1 per point of Constitution bonus.
Stench Cloud: At 3 Hit Dice, the troglodyte can create a persistent 10-ft. radius cloud of rancid-smelling air around itself. Any creatures entering the cloud are affected by the stench, whether they entered through their own movement or that of the troglodyte. If a creature succeeds at making a Fortitude save against a troglodyte's stench cloud, it is immune to that particular troglodyte's stench cloud for 24 hours; they can still be affected by the trog's other stench powers, however. The stench cloud lasts for 1 round per point of Constitution bonus (minimum 1 round) and consumes 1 daily use of the stench musk power.
At 4 Hit Dice, the radius of the stench cloud reaches 30 feet.
At 7 Hit Dice, the cloud lasts indefinitely as long as the troglodyte has at least 1 daily use of its stench power remaining. The troglodyte can disperse the cloud as a free action, but must expend another daily use of the stench musk power to re-establish it. Should the trog expend its last daily usage of the stench power, the stench cloud fades away after a number of rounds equal to 1 + Con bonus (minimum 1 round).
At 10 Hit Dice, the troglodyte can activate or deactivate the stench cloud at will as a free action; it does not require daily uses of the stench musk power to initiate or maintain as long as the trog has at least 1 daily use remaining.
Stench Gag: At 5 Hit Dice, the troglodyte can, as a swift action, squirt a concentrated blast of musk at a living creature within 30 feet that needs to breathe. The target creature must make a Fortitude saving throw or be nauseated for 1 round. This uses up one of the troglodyte's daily uses of its stench ability.
At 13th level, the nauseated condition lasts 1d4 rounds.
Stinking Cloud: At 9 Hit Dice, the troglodyte can expend 2 daily uses of its stench musk as a move action to create a cloud of vile odor similar to a stinking cloud spell, except that it only grants concealment (20% miss chance) to those within, rather than total concealment, and the cloud is centered on the troglodyte's current space.
It Burns! At 11 Hit Dice, the troglodyte's musk is so virulent that all of its stench musk powers now affect living creatures that do not need to breathe (such as outsiders, or a human wearing a necklace of adaptation).
Stench Eruption: At 15 Hit Dice, the troglodyte can squirt musk when it is damaged in melee by a living creature. This is an immediate action and expends one of its daily uses of stench musk power. The creature damaging it is automatically nauseated for 1 round (no save).
Deadly Cloud: At 17 Hit Dice, the troglodyte can expend three daily uses of its stench musk power as a standard action to create a deadly cloud of green fumes. This functions like a cloudkill spell, except that it only provides concealment (not total concealment) to those within, and the cloud is centered on the troglodyte's space. The trog does not have control over where the cloud goes once it is created; it moves according to prevailing wind conditions (or stays still, if no wind is present).


Racial Feats:
Acidic Musk
Your musk has become acrid, burning the lungs of those who breathe it.
Prerequisites: Con 15+, stench musk 6/day.
Benefit: Any creature who fails a Fortitude saving throw against your stench musk powers also takes 1d6 points of acid damage.

Improved Acidic Musk
Your musk is a more potent acid than ever.
Prerequisites: Con 17+, stench musk 15/day.
Benefit: When a creature fails a Fortitude saving throw against one of your stench musk powers, you deal additional acid damage equal to either your Constitution bonus or one-half your total Hit Dice, rounded down (whichever is less).

Muskblade
You have learned to spread your poisonous musk on your weapons quickly.
Prerequisites: Con 13+, Poisonous Musk, troglodyte, stench musk 12/day.
Benefit: As a swift action, you may apply the poison from your bite attack to any slashing or piercing weapon you are wielding (including ammunition) without danger of poisoning yourself. The poison lasts until you successfully make an attack with that weapon, or a number of minutes equal to 1 + you Constitution bonus. Applying the poison uses up one of your daily uses of your poisonous musk. This feat also gives you +2 additional daily uses of your poisonous musk.

Poisonous Musk
Your musk glands have become poisonous.
Prerequisites: Con 13+, troglodyte, stench musk 8/day.
Benefit: Your bite attack becomes poisonous. The Fortitude saving throw DC for the poison is equal to 10 + 1/2 your total Hit Dice + your Constitution modifier. The primary damage is 1d6 Str + nauseated for 1 round; the secondary damage is 1d6 Strength. You may make one poisonous bite attack per day per point of Constitution bonus before your poison glands dry up until the following day. You are immune to your own poison.


Troglodyte Rogue Racial Substitution Levels:
HD: D6

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|
Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|Sneak Attack +1d6, Seeker in the Dark
3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+1|Sneak Attack +2d6, Overpowering Trail, Poison Resistance +1
6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+2|Blinding Musk
[/table]

Requirements:
To take a troglodyte rogue substitution level, a character must be a troglodyte about to take his 1st, 3rd, or 6th level of rogue.

Class Skills:
Troglodyte rogue substitution levels grant the same class skill as the standard rogue class, plus Handle Animal and Knowledge (Dungeoneering).
Skill Points at Each Level: 8 + Int modifier

Class Features:
Seeker in the Dark (Ex): A troglodyte rogue spends more time looking for rival troglodytes hiding themselves along the cave walls than for mechanical traps. At 1st level, the troglodyte rogue gains a racial bonus to their Spot skill checks equal to their level in the rogue class whenever they are using their darkvision to see in total darkness. This bonus is halved in areas of shadowy illumination, and nullified in bright light. They also gain the ability to see in magical darkness, such as that created by a deeper darkness spell, though they gain no bonus to their Spot checks under such conditions. They do not gain the Trapfinding class ability if they take this racial substitution level.

Overpowering Trail (Ex): A troglodyte rogue knows there's no way that a bloodhound will ever fail to find his trail, so it learns how to compensate. Starting at 3rd level, the troglodyte rogue's stench becomes particularly harmful to those with sensitive noses. Any creature with the Scent special ability suffers a -4 penalty to their saving throws against its stench musk powers, and if they fail any such save, they cannot use Scent for 24 hours (as well as any blindsense or blindsight ability defined as being due to superior olfactory senses, such as a shark's). Further, attempting to track the troglodyte by scent forces a creature to make a Fortitude saving throw (without the penalty) or have their ability to use Scent ruined for 24 hours. If a creature attempting to track the troglodyte rogue succeeds at their saving throw, they can safely follow the trail for 24 hours before needing to make another.

Poison Resistance (Ex): A troglodyte rogue has little experience with traps, but foul substances are a daily part of life. The troglodyte rogue gains a +2 bonus to saving throws against poisons, and an additional +1 every time they would normally increase their Trap Sense class ability. They do not get Trap Sense if they take this racial substitution level.

Blinding Musk (Ex): Starting at 6th level, the troglodyte rogue can attempt to squirt musk into the eyes of a living creature within 30 feet; if the creature is particularly large, the troglodyte rogue must be within 30 feet of its eyes. Squirting blinding musk is a move action, but requires a ranged touch attack roll. If successful, the target creature is blinded for 1 round, then dazzled for for 2d6 rounds afterward. Blinding a foe uses up two of the troglodyte's daily uses of its racial stench musk ability.

Comments

My main goal was obviously to create interesting active abilities centered around the trog stench, which I think I did. The most important thing was finding a way to immunize your party members from your stink; I think that's the main reason why the trog has never gotten any love as a PC race. Apart from that, I see them as a rogue-friendly race, with a built-in debuff, bonuses to Hide, and at higher levels, the ability to create Save-or-suck concealment clouds to hide in. That's why I reduced their HD to d6 and increased their skill points to 4.

The rogue substitution levels help continue that concept with some abilities that I came up with for the core class but had to drop due to the fact that they were a bit too much for a monster class that you only had to sacrifice 1 level for.

Also, I still need to find an image.


Changelog

No changes yet

Gorgondantess
2011-04-18, 02:13 PM
And the reclusive groundhog pokes its head out of its hole. Shall it be afraid of its own shadow, ushering in weeks more of winter, or will it arise proudly to bring in spring? Only time will tell.
On that silly note, a more serious one:
Why don't you start by PMing me your troglodyte class? It's not like waiting a day will make it vanish off your harddrive, or munchkins will edit the file you have to make it a worse class.
EDIT: Eh, ninja'd. Or trog'd. Day late and a dollar short, as usual.:smallamused:
Well, I don't really see why, exactly, you're posting this. I mean, what are you trying to gain? Seems to me like you're jumping the gun a little.

SPoD
2011-04-18, 02:56 PM
Why don't you start by PMing me your troglodyte class? It's not like waiting a day will make it vanish off your harddrive, or munchkins will edit the file you have to make it a worse class.
EDIT: Eh, ninja'd. Or trog'd. Day late and a dollar short, as usual.:smallamused:
Well, I don't really see why, exactly, you're posting this. I mean, what are you trying to gain? Seems to me like you're jumping the gun a little.

First, Hyudra told me to "please feel free" to post it, so I did.

Second, I PM'd you over a week ago for a "license" to participate, and you never responded, so forgive me for not thinking that PMing you would produce any results.

Third, I'm posting it for the same reason everyone else is presumably participating in this project: because they had an idea and wanted to share it. In this case, I picked a monster that was not listed in the Table of Contents and wrote it up while I was waiting for you to respond to my PM. When you did not, I PM'd Hyudra and told him/her that I had a troglodyte class ready-to-go, he/she told me that it had been included under Reptilians (to which I responded that I thought that the ToC should be changed to reflect that, which it now has been). So I created this class not knowing that one already existed. Now that I did the work, however, I would like it to be seen. When I told Hyudra via PM that I would simply post it in its own thread if it was a problem, he/she told me that I should raise the question here.

Fourth, if I have anything to "gain" other than hopefully the warm glow of someone enjoying my work, it would be to challenge what I see as an attempt to exercise control over other posters and their work. It's absurd that anyone needs "permission" from a select group of posters to post a class on an open thread. If you don't want to respond to it or include it in your master list, then don't. But I don't need anyone's approval to post it.

In other words, I think the burden is on you to explain why I can't post something on this thread, given the rules of this message board.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-18, 03:04 PM
Oh, no, I'm not saying you can't. I never said you can't, and I never will say you can't. You're free to post what you please, so long as it's within the forum rules. I was more saying, shouldn't? As in, it's kindof rude, and doesn't endear anyone to you, and as this is a community project and it requires the approval of others, it's in your best interests to be respectful.
Secondly, the primary purpose of licensing is to avoid these kinds of things. You need a license to work on a monster, and to get a license you need to tell the licenser what monster you want to work on. Therefore, if you were to follow the process, this kindof thing would never happen.
And you're right, you don't need anybody's approval to post it. Nobody's stopping you- feel free to go hogwild and post as many monsters as you choose, so long as you're not spamming (which, again, is against the forum rules). And while we cannot force you to not post, you cannot force us to acknowledge your posts.

Zemro
2011-04-18, 03:10 PM
So, I've been doing some ruminating on our standard operating procedure in regards to creating monster classes for construct and undead creatures. While it's been discussed before I only bring it up again because I have a suggestion in mind for balancing the benefits of those racial types to allow for customization in regards to the creature's BAB and skills.

The necropolitan template costs the taker one level and 1,000 experience, such a thing will be made up for eventually since experience is a river. The end result is that you can have a character with undead traits, class skills, a good BAB, different saves and class abilities.

I was then thinking, what if we took a similar approach with one of two ideas.
Idea One: We create a one level class with the standard undead chasis, d12 HD, good will save no class skills and then nothing else. Taking a level in this class would be a prerequisite to taking levels in one of the undead monster classes, essentially paying for the undead traits by taking a level with almost no other benefits. If this level is taken as a character's first, I'd suggest that their next level in any class award x4 skill points as though it had been taken first.
Idea Two: Very similar to idea one, except that we make this the first level in any base classes granted undead traits grant no other abilities other than those traits. We could probably preserve the same saves, skills and BAB progressions as the rest of this class.
Now, both ideas have their problems but I think they both also have some merit. It's always kinda bugged me about the lack of skills for undead classes (and role appropriate BAB) and has been a bit of a turn off for me taking levels in those classes.

A similar process could be taken with the construct racial benefits, or perhaps the consideration that awakened constructs might be closer to the (living construct) subtype in some cases.

Regardless, I feel that having some way to allow construct and undead monster classes to develop class skills, and not have to rely on large ability bonuses to combat skills would be a step forwards in overall quality.

Hyudra
2011-04-18, 03:21 PM
Just clarifying what Gorgon said, in a somewhat nicer light:

What I want to stress, SPoD, is that the main appeal of this thread is getting detailed and constructive feedback for your monster and helping add to a broad pool of highly polished and interesting monster classes.

Given that the people who can provide in depth critiques are relatively scarce, and that there's only so much we can do in a given span of time, we've established a few processes and guidelines. Among these are getting a license, avoiding redoing monsters that don't need it, and so on. This isn't us being authoritarian or ridiculous - this is us just trying to keep things civil, sane, and organized, because we've been doing this for a while now and we've seen what happens when we don't.

If the end intent of this thread doesn't suit your personal goals, and the guidelines rankle, then I might suggest you'd be happier just posting in the core homebrew area. You're free to post here, of course, but if you're not helping us keep things civil, sane and organized, if you're flaunting rules or making life harder for us every step of the way, I'm afraid we have little reason to offer up our own time and effort in exchange. That's all.

SPoD
2011-04-18, 03:21 PM
Secondly, the primary purpose of licensing is to avoid these kinds of things. You need a license to work on a monster, and to get a license you need to tell the licenser what monster you want to work on. Therefore, if you were to follow the process, this kindof thing would never happen.

I did follow the process. The process failed. If you had responded to your PMs in a timely fashion, I would have been happy to work on another monster. I had no great love for the troglodyte that I felt that only I could detail it, I simply refused for the work I had already created to sit unseen due to the fact that you misnamed your previous trog article. As I said, if you are going to set yourself up as the gatekeeper, then it's your responsibility to handle these things.

As I see it, the fact that I spent time on a monster that had already been detailed is your fault (for not responding to my initial PM) and Hyudra's fault (for poor formatting of the ToC in the first place that made it unclear that the troglodyte already existed). If you two are going to set yourself up as Grand Supreme Leaders, then you have to take responsibility when your own failures cause a problem and allow an exception, rather than blaming me for falling through the cracks in your poorly conceived "process."

Hyudra
2011-04-18, 03:24 PM
and Hyudra's fault (for poor formatting of the ToC in the first place that made it unclear that the troglodyte already existed). If you two are going to set yourself up as Grand Supreme Leaders, then you have to take responsibility when your own failures cause a problem and allow an exception, rather than blaming me for falling through the cracks in your poorly conceived "process."

Just to clarify - the Reptilians were finished and added to the master list by one of my predecessors at a time when I wasn't in charge of the project. It was, in fact, at an early point in the thread when we didn't have what you call authoritarian rule, and when things were kinda disorganized, poor quality and chaotic.

In the time since I've inherited a share of the project, we've been going through the list to weed out the biggest issues and most confusing things, but it's an involved process and we're only halfway. The reptilian just hadn't come up yet.

SPoD
2011-04-18, 03:30 PM
Again, if you want to be captain, then everything on the ship is your responsibility, even those things the previous captain messed up.

Hyudra
2011-04-18, 03:36 PM
Again, if you want to be captain, then everything on the ship is your responsibility, even those things the previous captain messed up.

We adopted a sinking ship, and you're cussing us out while we're taking charge and trying to bail it out.

For what?
For taking charge? Nonsensical.
For not having everything magically fixed already? Unrealistic.
For not offering more time and effort than we've already done? Outright silly.
For not being available 24/7, 365? Laughable.

Forum Staff
2011-04-18, 03:46 PM
This thread is locked for review.

Mark Hall
2011-04-19, 03:02 PM
The Mod Wonder: Ok, here's the deal.

There are no licenses to post in this thread. This is neither Silly Message Board Games nor a PBP, so while Hydrua and Gorgondantess are indexers, they are not the boss of the thread with the ability to tell people what they can and cannot post; this has been acknowledged, I'm just stating it for the record and the red-text aficionados.

That said, they also do not have anything other than a self-imposed responsibility to respond to PMs about the thread, in whatever time frame they wish or are able to manage. They also don't have anything other than a self-imposed responsibility to include anything posted in their indices, but if they're going to take responsibility for the thread, not playing favorites is part of it.

I am re-opening the thread, but the staff will be perfectly content to go back to "one creation, one thread" and let people index on their own, off-site.

Hyudra
2011-04-19, 04:23 PM
Ah, a happy ending.

Having an off-site discussion with Gorgon as to how we can reword things and/or streamline the process to prevent future misunderstandings (such as the apparent assumptions of the licenses being something they aren't/weren't).

Also discussing how we can handle the issue of people redoing monsters or having several versions of the same monster. Just speaking for myself - nothing is going to make me more bored or frustrated with this project than doing a second, third or fourth analysis of a monster that's already been posted (especially when said monster is already decent). I'm open to conversation on the subject.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-19, 04:26 PM
And the license system has been done away with to institute a newer, opener, and nevertheless similar system. Do read the new wording under "So you want to make a monster class", and tell me what you think.
Note that there is still a process involved that I certainly hope everyone will follow.

Roland St. Jude
2011-04-19, 08:21 PM
And the license system has been done away with to institute a newer, opener, and nevertheless similar system. Do read the new wording under "So you want to make a monster class", and tell me what you think.
Note that there is still a process involved that I certainly hope everyone will follow.
Sheriff of Moddingham: A quick skim suggests that you may not have fully grasped the import of The Mod Wonder's post. Please do away with the "council" business and any sort of privileged class who gets to decide what gets "approved" or "indexed" - before or after a poster does it. No one should be expected to obtain your (plural) approval before or after doing their work nor should a select group's opinion of quality be the gateway to acknowledgment. If you (plural) want to be the indexers/administrators of the effort that's fine, but this thread having a council/bosses is contrary to our thread ownership policy and, frankly, isn't working out too well overall.

If this restriction on being the thread masters makes the position unappealing to anyone so be it, we can go back to individual posters making threads for their own monster classes and people can collect those they are interested in individually. As Mod Wonder notes, we (the forum staff) are unlikely to keep returning to this thread to keep it running smoothly.

Hyudra
2011-04-19, 08:56 PM
So noted.

I haven't discussed what follows with Gorgondantess or Kyuubi, but I'm wondering if it would it be objectionable if...
We still list unfinished, called and finished monsters.
The posters themselves decide if their work is done. If they so wish it, it goes on the list.
The council remains, but is simply administration (keeping the front page in order, answering questions) and is representative of those with a grasp of balance, playability & quality. Access to the council would be easier but would still require some background in critiquing and submitting monsters - something relatively straightforward like having done X critiques and submitted Y monsters.
The council can mark a particular class as 'favored' - Say, giving it a gold star or silver star. This gives DMs a good way to quickly identify those monsters that have been thoroughly reviewed & which shouldn't be too gamebreaking/underpowered/overpowered, when a player asks if they can play a (say) Minotaur vs. playing a Tarrasque. These stars are recorded on the front page.
I don't care about being 'thread master' - I just want to ensure that things stay somewhat organized & that we have a way of identifying quality work vs. something that was thrown up in 2 minutes. The problem we're trying to avoid is having people look at the project, glance at one problematic (and I mean unplayable) monster and then deem the entire thing unworthy of their time. I'm open to suggestions that would assist these goals.

Mystic Muse
2011-04-19, 09:16 PM
One other question. Would we be allowed to keep our previous policy and link to the project if we were to take it off site?


The problem we're trying to avoid is having people look at the project, glance at one problematic (and I mean unplayable) monster and then deem the entire thing unworthy of their time. I'm open to suggestions that would assist these goals.

Yeah. This is the main issue.

Xzoltar
2011-04-19, 10:34 PM
Anybody plan on doing : Sharn, Phaerimm, Greater Doppelganger, Malaugrym, Concordant Killer, Rilmanis (Any), Leshay, Archons (Sword, Throne, Word, Warden, Justice), Sarruhk, Cerebrilith, Elder Brain, Ethergaunt (Any), Ha-Naga, Anathema (Yuan-ti) ???

I really like the thread overall so I think maybe you guys should have this discution via Private Message directly to the Mods so the thread dont get lock again

Zemro
2011-04-19, 11:00 PM
Anybody plan on doing : Sharn, Phaerimm, Greater Doppelganger, Malaugrym, Concordant Killer, Rilmanis (Any), Leshay, Archons (Sword, Throne, Word, Warden, Justice), Sarruhk, Cerebrilith, Elder Brain, Ethergaunt (Any), Ha-Naga, Anathema (Yuan-ti) ???

I really like the thread overall so I think maybe you guys should have this discution via Private Message directly to the Mods so the thread dont get lock again

The Justice Archon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10474880&postcount=941) is nearly complete, I'm just waiting to get some feedback on the most recent changes, and a couple things I was thinking about for future changes. The post in question for that is back here: [link] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10694201&postcount=345)

After finishing off a redux of the abandoned Dwarf Ancestor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10661238&postcount=320) I plan on moving onto the rest of the various Archons, which I've noted previously in the thread. So, that accounts for five of the listed monsters. I, of course, can't stop you from pursuing them, but you did ask.

Actually I'm considering, and perhaps more seriously in light of recent events, to move my monster classes to their own thread. This thread can get rather busy with lots of people and lots of monsters, and while it doesn't always move the fastest, it still has a high population. I tend to flounder a bit in threads with that sort of high population business, so things have not been the easiest as we've expanded.

Hyudra
2011-04-19, 11:08 PM
Someone expressed interest in doing Archons (see the Interest List on first page) and I know for a fact that Gorgondantess has been working on Ethergaunts for a while, so I'd urge you to double check with him lest you step on toes.

@Zemro: I hope you don't move to another thread, but I understand if you do. I'd suggest perhaps waiting to see how things turn out following the changes in the way we do things here. It may be that some people leave or more people join in, and you find yourself gravitating one way or the other as a consequence.

chrisrawr
2011-04-20, 01:09 PM
Out of curiosity, is there anything in particular that's not called? I'm going to check through the list on the front page later, but I thought, if anyone could think of something top-of-head, it'd give me a head-start on brainstorming. I've personally got no problems in waiting to talk to those more experienced in keeping things sane before I go ahead and rush into things, if my opinion counts for any :V

TheGeckoKing
2011-04-20, 01:30 PM
How about the Derro? Only CR 3, and they have enough abilities on the initial monster that you could pick and choose for a monster class if you were struggling, so that's always a crutch for if you hit a mental block.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-20, 01:32 PM
How about the Derro? Only CR 3, and they have enough abilities on the initial monster that you could pick and choose for a monster class if you were struggling, so that's always a crutch for if you hit a mental block.

...I am positive I did the Derro at one point or another. Like, 100% positive.:smallconfused:

ScionoftheVoid
2011-04-20, 01:33 PM
Okay, Gorgon, following changes made to the Gargoyle:

06/04/11 - City Prowler diving charge bonus damage less limited (cap increased to d6/HD from d6/2HD and recoil lowered to 1/3 of bonus damage from 1/2). Clarification added to Statuesque Perfection.

Is it finished now?

Reposting because it may easily have been missed. If it hasn't been missed let me know so I can remove this post.

TheGeckoKing
2011-04-20, 01:34 PM
...I am positive I did the Derro at one point or another. Like, 100% positive.:smallconfused:
Didn't see it on the monster list OR the dibs list, so it might of been lost through the cracks.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-20, 01:35 PM
Yep. Here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170469&page=16)

TheGeckoKing
2011-04-20, 01:36 PM
Yep. Here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170469&page=16)

My bad then. Well, i'll go look for something else to suggest.........

And the monarch has found something! How about the Krenshar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/krenshar.htm)?

Hyudra
2011-04-20, 01:50 PM
My bad then. Well, i'll go look for something else to suggest.........

And the monarch has found something! How about the Krenshar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/krenshar.htm)?

Krenshar's cool. I've got an awesome picture of one in a folder somewhere.

chrisrawr
2011-04-20, 01:52 PM
My bad then. Well, i'll go look for something else to suggest.........

And the monarch has found something! How about the Krenshar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/krenshar.htm)?

Many thanks to you, oh mighty King!

Gorgon, since you seem to be here, have you checked skype lately? I sent you a request, but it may have not gone through (laptop is finicky, at the best). I'd love to have a chat and learn some of the finer points of converting monsters into classes :D

edit@Hyudra - would you mind if I borrowed it in the case that I run with this? Can't go wrong with awesome :smallbiggrin:

TheGeckoKing
2011-04-20, 01:57 PM
Many thanks to you, oh mighty King!

No problem. Now if I could get thanks like that out of my cultists.......

Regardless of being a paradox, could you put me down for The Lich? As far as I'm concerned, both the Vivisector and Pandorym are done and I'd like to start on newer things.

Hyudra
2011-04-20, 02:01 PM
Many thanks to you, oh mighty King!

Gorgon, since you seem to be here, have you checked skype lately? I sent you a request, but it may have not gone through (laptop is finicky, at the best). I'd love to have a chat and learn some of the finer points of converting monsters into classes :D

edit@Hyudra - would you mind if I borrowed it in the case that I run with this? Can't go wrong with awesome :smallbiggrin:

I'll keep an eye out for it. Can't remember where I stuck it - I have a dozen archived folders of images I've saved to my PC for monsters alone.

chrisrawr
2011-04-20, 02:12 PM
I'll keep an eye out for it. Can't remember where I stuck it - I have a dozen archived folders of images I've saved to my PC for monsters alone.

Don't look too hard for my sake; If you happen to come upon it randomly some day I'd be overjoyed if you set it aside, but I don't want to put upon you :smallredface:

The Tygre
2011-04-20, 03:58 PM
Yep. Here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170469&page=16)

He-ey! There's my little creep from out of the cold! I remember asking for this guy when Oslecamo was still around. Shame the game I wanted him for didn't go very far.

Hyudra
2011-04-20, 04:06 PM
So on the last page, I mentioned a possible change to the way we outline things. The idea is that everyone would be able to decide when their own monster is done (No council bottleneck) and the council would keep track of quality monsters using a rating system.

What follows is an illustration of what I'm talking about.
Base Monster Classes

Rating System:

http://i53.tinypic.com/2ds0ly.png - Gold Stars designate monsters that have been exhaustively reviewed and are up to date. Recommended for play.
http://i53.tinypic.com/28tumbd.png - Silver Stars designate monsters that are good, but haven't been exhaustively reviewed and monsters that were reviewed, deemed complete & those which were good but may not be up to date with thread standards.
http://i56.tinypic.com/11ukndy.png - No Star means the monster either hasn't been reviewed/checked as of late and no verdict has been given, or it falls somewhere in the spectrum of being good or being bad. Use at your own risk.
http://i55.tinypic.com/b5mid3.png - The red x marks monsters that have been deemed problematic. They may be imbalanced, broken, terribly out of date, simply incomplete or deemed too bland to be enjoyable. Not recommended for play.
Each monster will have up to 4 stars, with each star representing the verdict of Hyudra, Gorgondantess, Kyuubi and the Community, in that order.

A

{table=head]Monster|Creator|Ratings|Notes

Abishai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9224087&postcount=41)|Gorgondantess|http://i53.tinypic.com/28tumbd.png

Aboleth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9367644&postcount=408)|Oslecamo|http://i55.tinypic.com/b5mid3.png|A revised version is in progress.

Achaierai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8926591&postcount=946)|Gorgondantess|http://i53.tinypic.com/28tumbd.png

Air elemental (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8927531&postcount=952)|AustontheGreat1|http://i53.tinypic.com/28tumbd.png

Allip (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9468452&postcount=105)|Temotei|http://i56.tinypic.com/11ukndy.png

Anaxim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9355044&postcount=378)|Draken|http://i56.tinypic.com/11ukndy.png

Androsphynx (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9241349&postcount=136)|Oslecamo|http://i55.tinypic.com/b5mid3.png

Angel of Decay (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8589538&postcount=496)|Draken|http://i56.tinypic.com/11ukndy.png

Ankheg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9917457&postcount=99)|Kajhera|http://i56.tinypic.com/11ukndy.png

Annis Hag (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8910218&postcount=915)|Hyudra|http://i56.tinypic.com/11ukndy.png

Anthropomorphic Animal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9187907&postcount=1413)|Oslecamo|http://i55.tinypic.com/b5mid3.png

Aranea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8118735&postcount=220)|Oslecamo|http://i55.tinypic.com/b5mid3.png

Arcadian Avenger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9591118&postcount=594)|Zemro Shivic|http://i53.tinypic.com/2ds0ly.png

Arcanaloth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9059851&postcount=1145)|Frog Dragon|http://i56.tinypic.com/11ukndy.png

Arrow Demon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9520004&postcount=337)|Cogidubnus|http://i53.tinypic.com/28tumbd.png

Astral Construct (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9477852&postcount=172)|Sciencepanda|http://i56.tinypic.com/11ukndy.png

Astral Stalker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9355227&postcount=379)|Fyrebyrd/Oslecamo|http://i55.tinypic.com/b5mid3.png

Awakened Monstrous Crab (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9355321&postcount=380)|Flabort|http://i56.tinypic.com/11ukndy.png
Awakened Skeleton (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7966879&postcount=55)|Oslecamo|http://i55.tinypic.com/b5mid3.png
[/table]
B

{table=head]Monster|Creator|Ratings|Notes
...[/table]
I want to avoid having a rating for monsters that are 'poor but not unplayable', which is why the no-star is what it is. We'd start by assuming any monster that's passed through the review process since we set it in motion is a gold star monster. Monsters which passed through a review process sometime before summer of 2010 would be a silver star, pending review. Those from the very early days would be no-star or red x, depending on how apparent the problems were.

Feedback on this is appreciated. Does it look good, is it something you want? Do you think it's an acceptable compromise and a good shift away from the general notion of Gorgon and myself being 'in charge' of the thread?

Benly
2011-04-20, 04:10 PM
Feedback on this is appreciated. Does it look good, is it something you want? Do you think it's an acceptable compromise and a good shift away from the general notion of Gorgon and myself being 'in charge' of the thread?

I approve of it as a general idea. My main concern is the possibility of red-Xing being misused as a "punitive measure" for classes that aren't actually broken but offend someone's sense of standardization or come from an author who a list maintainer has a grudge against or feels insulted by.

chrisrawr
2011-04-20, 04:22 PM
I approve of it as a general idea. My main concern is the possibility of red-Xing being misused as a "punitive measure" for classes that aren't actually broken but offend someone's sense of standardization or come from an author who a list maintainer has a grudge against or feels insulted by.

Since I feel Hyudra wants to have community ratings be a part of this starring process, an X would only be available if even the community disliked it - otherwise, it simply gets no star (to represent that it somehow doesn't meet standards, but is playable - even if objectionably sourced or produced). Am I somewhat correct on this assumption, or have I just made an ass of myself?

It feels good to me - It's fairly inclusive, has an easy legend, and allows the homebrew to be picked through at a glance. DM's with less experience running monsters from this thread will be able to tell at a glance if their players are running less-than-par articles.

Perhaps make it clear which star comes from which rater - a bit more work, but it would allow the player/DM to know which council members approve or dislike each article - allowing the potential for contact and discussion on which variables could be changed for a better personal 'fit'.

As an example, say Player Jim wants to use Monster X. The DM checks out monster X, and sees that a council member has rated it with an X. The DM says "I'm not going to let you use this, it has an X." - Jim could say "Ah, but I asked the Council Member who rated it with an X, and he said it was just because he didn't like Monster X's creator - here's the quote!" - Player Jim then proceeds to terrorize villagers with Monster X, because of the smooth communication between parties.

Mystic Muse
2011-04-20, 04:26 PM
Since I feel Hyudra wants to have community ratings be a part of this starring process, an X would only be available if even the community disliked it - otherwise, it simply gets no star (to represent that it somehow doesn't meet standards, but is playable - even if objectionably sourced or produced). Am I somewhat correct on this assumption, or have I just made an ass of myself?

It feels good to me - It's fairly inclusive, has an easy legend, and allows the homebrew to be picked through at a glance. DM's with less experience running monsters from this thread will be able to tell at a glance if their players are running less-than-par articles.

Perhaps make it clear which star comes from which rater - a bit more work, but it would allow the player/DM to know which council members approve or dislike each article - allowing the potential for contact and discussion on which variables could be changed for a better personal 'fit'.

As an example, say Player Jim wants to use Monster X. The DM checks out monster X, and sees that a council member has rated it with an X. The DM says "I'm not going to let you use this, it has an X." - Jim could say "Ah, but I asked the Council Member who rated it with an X, and he said it was just because he didn't like Monster X's creator - here's the quote!" - Player Jim then proceeds to terrorize villagers with Monster X, because of the smooth communication between parties.

This sounds like a good idea too. Although I would hope nobody would rate a monster as an X just because they didn't like the creator.

Hyudra
2011-04-20, 04:27 PM
I approve of it as a general idea. My main concern is the possibility of red-Xing being misused as a "punitive measure" for classes that aren't actually broken but offend someone's sense of standardization or come from an author who a list maintainer has a grudge against or feels insulted by.

Fair concern, that. I'd like to think I wouldn't do that.

Part of this review/rating process, I think, would involve allowing submitters to ask for a review for their monster - if someone got a red x, asked for a review and the council member couldn't justify why it received a rock bottom rating, it would naturally be changed. This would also let people who want a gold star ask the council members what they'd have to do to improve said monster's rating.

Just speaking for myself, if there was someone I really didn't get along with (typically as a result of them being argumentative), I wouldn't go that far just for the sake of avoiding having to deal with said individuals (If I rated them lower than they deserved, I'd have to discuss/debate with them when that's the last thing I wanted).


Since I feel Hyudra wants to have community ratings be a part of this starring process, an X would only be available if even the community disliked it - otherwise, it simply gets no star (to represent that it somehow doesn't meet standards, but is playable - even if objectionably sourced or produced). Am I somewhat correct on this assumption, or have I just made an ass of myself?

It feels good to me - It's fairly inclusive, has an easy legend, and allows the homebrew to be picked through at a glance. DM's with less experience running monsters from this thread will be able to tell at a glance if their players are running less-than-par articles.

Perhaps make it clear which star comes from which rater - a bit more work, but it would allow the player/DM to know which council members approve or dislike each article - allowing the potential for contact and discussion on which variables could be changed for a better personal 'fit'.

As an example, say Player Jim wants to use Monster X. The DM checks out monster X, and sees that a council member has rated it with an X. The DM says "I'm not going to let you use this, it has an X." - Jim could say "Ah, but I asked the Council Member who rated it with an X, and he said it was just because he didn't like Monster X's creator - here's the quote!" - Player Jim then proceeds to terrorize villagers with Monster X, because of the smooth communication between parties.

Well, I mentioned it but didn't outline it for the sake of tidiness. What it would actually look like is something like:

{table=head]Monster|Creator|Rating|Notes
Awakened Cat |Gorgondantess|http://i53.tinypic.com/28tumbd.pnghttp://i53.tinypic.com/2ds0ly.pnghttp://i53.tinypic.com/2ds0ly.pnghttp://i53.tinypic.com/2ds0ly.png|[/table]
With the respective stars being my rating, Gorgon's, Kyuubi's and the community's, in that order.

If my star was a red x instead, I suspect it would say more about me than about the monster in question, given the other ratings.

chrisrawr
2011-04-20, 04:40 PM
Ah, the stars from left to right would be part of the legend. Much neater and simpler than what I had in mind :I

Benly
2011-04-20, 04:48 PM
I'm kind of uncomfortable with the continued use of the term "council" here. It kind of contributes to the mentality where people think they deserve more control than they have.

What I'm trying to politely hint at here is that, from my perspective as a casual observer, it looks like sometimes Gorgondantess flips out and goes from "basically okay guy and good homebrewer" to "self-proclaimed benevolent dictator", and so do one or two other people I can't remember because they're less prominent. I don't know what triggers it, but I feel like people calling themselves "list maintainer" or "review volunteer" instead of "The Council Of Masters" is a lot less likely to lead to Dr. Doom mode being engaged.

I'm not trying to start anything here; this is just my engaged semi-outsider view of what it looks like when this thread starts going into meltdown mode.

Mystic Muse
2011-04-20, 04:52 PM
I'm kind of uncomfortable with the continued use of the term "council" here. It kind of contributes to the mentality where people think they deserve more control than they have.

What I'm trying to politely hint at here is that, from my perspective as a casual observer, it looks like sometimes Gorgondantess flips out and goes from "basically okay guy and good homebrewer" to "self-proclaimed benevolent dictator", and so do one or two other people I can't remember because they're less prominent. I don't know what triggers it, but I feel like people calling themselves "list maintainer" or "review volunteer" instead of "The Council Of Masters" is a lot less likely to lead to Dr. Doom mode being engaged.

I'm not trying to start anything here; this is just my engaged semi-outsider view of what it looks like when this thread starts going into meltdown mode.

Frankly I agree with you. The council has a bad ring to it if we're trying to avoid getting the thread locked.

Hyudra
2011-04-20, 04:58 PM
I'm kind of uncomfortable with the continued use of the term "council" here. It kind of contributes to the mentality where people think they deserve more control than they have.

What I'm trying to politely hint at here is that, from my perspective as a casual observer, it looks like sometimes Gorgondantess flips out and goes from "basically okay guy and good homebrewer" to "self-proclaimed benevolent dictator", and so do one or two other people I can't remember because they're less prominent. I don't know what triggers it, but I feel like people calling themselves "list maintainer" or "review volunteer" instead of "The Council Of Masters" is a lot less likely to lead to Dr. Doom mode being engaged.

True, and I agree with Kyuubi that it has a bad ring to it in light of recent events.

That said, 'List maintainer' is clumsy and 'review volunteer' is vague (aren't we all review volunteers in some fashion?).

I'm open to further suggestions. Judge, Arbiter, Arbitrator, Critic, Monitor, Rater, Senate, Pundit, Adept? No, not all of those are serious suggestions, just throwing words out there and seeing if any appeal. Ideally, given the amount of work that goes into the thread, at times, I'd like it if I wasn't constantly referred to as something analogous to 'thread janitor', while at the same time not being designated 'Lords and Ladies of the Thread'. A middle ground would be nice.

I'd also like to discuss what people would want as far as allowing more council members. Some standard or the like. I won't push this particular point of discussion just yet, though, as Gorgondantess hasn't had much of a chance to chime in, and I know he's got his issues with some of the stuff I've been proposing. I am interested in discussing/getting validation for the rating system, as it's something I wanted to push even before the recent red posts and I view it as being doubly important if we're dissolving the council as the adjudicators of the thread. It just requires a lot of work so I want to be sure there's an interest/demand for it and that no issues are raised after we do said work to implement it.

Kobold-Bard
2011-04-20, 05:07 PM
New names for Councillors: Gurus?

Still recognises your experience at it, without sounding particularly official.

Hyudra
2011-04-20, 05:09 PM
I like Guru.

Torgarn
2011-04-20, 05:17 PM
Resplendent Hobos?

Benly
2011-04-20, 05:56 PM
That said, 'List maintainer' is clumsy and 'review volunteer' is vague (aren't we all review volunteers in some fashion?).

I'm open to further suggestions. Judge, Arbiter, Arbitrator, Critic, Monitor, Rater, Senate, Pundit, Adept? No, not all of those are serious suggestions, just throwing words out there and seeing if any appeal. Ideally, given the amount of work that goes into the thread, at times, I'd like it if I wasn't constantly referred to as something analogous to 'thread janitor', while at the same time not being designated 'Lords and Ladies of the Thread'. A middle ground would be nice.

I would tend to err on the side of the self-deprecating. I'll say from experience that it's a lot easier to say "chief threadmonkey and bottle-washer" with a grin and a wink than it is to keep "Circle of Masters" from going to your head.

"List maintainer" is clumsy but also accurate, and how often do you expect to have to say it? "Review volunteer" would indicate specifically someone who has volunteered to review things as they're brought to zir attention rather than, as I suspect most of us do, waiting for something to specifically interest us. I'm not saying these are the Specific Terms I Demand, but workmanlike is better than self-important.

Specifically, the fact that it's a lot of work indicates, to me, that it should be workmanlike. It should be a title that indicates "somebody who is doing such and such work to help the thread" rather than some kind of ego-boosting reward for the work done. The reward for doing the work is that you have a good thread, not that you're the High Adept Of Threadmastery.

chrisrawr
2011-04-20, 07:45 PM
New names for Councillors: Gurus?

Still recognises your experience at it, without sounding particularly official.


I like Guru.

This please :3

Hyudra
2011-04-20, 07:49 PM
Well, from what discussions have come about with other council members and the moderators, it sounds like we're basically not allowed to have anyone specific making judgment on monster quality... so from what I gather, it's apparently the thread as a whole making a verdict or nothing. We're to strive for minimum procedure and maximum openness/inclusiveness. The latter two points are fine in my book, but the lack of procedure and the lack of a defined way of marking the quality from the throwaway work... we've been there, in Oslecamo's era. We're still, some 1.5 to 2 years later, cleaning up the mess.

So as much as I love this project and love what we're doing, I find myself at something of a loss. It sounds like my proposed rating system and the 'Gurus' representative of those with experience would just get the thread locked, regardless of the concessions being made. I don't know what to tell you guys.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-20, 07:59 PM
Aye.
I've had my stint as Grand Pooh-bah of the thread, and it didn't turn out well.
I've had my stint as Grand Pooh-bah's trusted vizier.
Doesn't look like that's going to turn out too well, either.
Critiquing has been a chore, and I just can't seem to finish a monster class.
And above all that, I don't want to be a part of a system that I don't agree with. If'n'less something big turns around here, I'm out.

Mystic Muse
2011-04-20, 09:13 PM
If you guys wanted we could always take this to our own forum board. There are a few free ones and I think it would be preferable to letting this project die.

Benly
2011-04-20, 09:15 PM
So as much as I love this project and love what we're doing, I find myself at something of a loss. It sounds like my proposed rating system and the 'Gurus' representative of those with experience would just get the thread locked, regardless of the concessions being made. I don't know what to tell you guys.

This is another advantage of being review volunteers rather than demanding to be gurus. :smallsmile:

State that the only requirement for a review volunteer is that they are actually willing to review on a regular basis, in reasonable depth, and in a reasonably timely manner things that people put up for review. Display in the main listing the ratings given by all volunteers who meet these criteria to be review volunteers. I believe that this method will serve sufficiently to winnow out chaotic U R SO RAD and me-toos without having the effect of creating a self-proclaimed Circle of Masters trying to exert control.

An important note: the only criterion for being a review volunteer should be "responds in reasonable depth, in a timely manner, on a regular basis". No determination of who is "qualified" beyond whether or not they actually do the job. The effort of doing the job can itself be the weeding-out factor.

Zemro
2011-04-20, 10:08 PM
Well, what if we look at it like this:

We maintain the called list, if for no other purpose then to retain some sort of easy-access list. People making monster classes continue to do so at their own pace, and others continue to help them get things polished up. There's no impetus on making monsters to give critique, so perhaps we can somehow incur a little more participation on that aspect.

Then when they feel their monster is complete, they say so and we have a vote on the monster. People vote yea if they like where the class is at, and maybe some comment on that. If they don't like where it's at they say nay and weigh in for what doesn't sit well with them. There are no requirements for who can vote.

The monster class goes up onto the list regardless, and we note beside it what the general feeling on that class was. It would be appreciable to participate in the critiquing process, but not a requirement as anyone can have a good idea about balance and such.

So a monster with 2 nays and 4 yeas could be noted as:

67% Approval (4/6)

So you can, at a glance, see what people think in general, and then see how many people have actually weighed in their opinion. The thought behind it is that the more people give their opinion, the more accurate the general feel about the class is.

People are welcome to change their vote if their opinion changes, so there may be a bit of upkeep there (and thread clutter) so maybe septate the thread somehow? Sort of a compendium thread for the lists and voting, then a work thread for critique and stuff.

Anyway, just tossing the idea out there for something to give us some organization and helping people looking at the list know what classes people feel are good, while keeping it so that that there is no specific arbitrator. Classes go up on the list regardless, and we have a body of equals giving or withholding approval.

NineThePuma
2011-04-21, 09:41 AM
What Zemro said. General populace vote on quality, probably using the 4 tiers method. Average it, put it up as specified.

When someone reviews it after it is "finished" and chooses to alter it... it's no different than anyone else's homebrew.


As an alternative, it is VERY VERY VERY easy to just post the creatures independently of the 'main' thread and use the 'main' thread for discussion of more important aspects of the project; overall progress, maintaining the 'called' list. Player feedback from playing a monster class might go there too; more indepth reviews and discussion of ideas, general brain storming of stuff... Really, it'd be more discussion than anything else, but the Home Brew forum isn't JUST for posting brew. It's also for developing brew.

Say, Hyudra wants to upkeep the list, s/he can. But all she does is keep the classes in the index and catalog the general responses. Maybe provide a helpful template for critique, and continue the usual reviewing, just in smaller bursts. But is as much the administrator of the project as I am the administrator of Gates of Heaven (which is to say, not at all).


Now, I need to sleep afore class. Ya'll have fun.

(And I only poked my head in cause I saw forum staff had locked the thread. I started laughing at that, and thought I'd throw out my two cents.)

Serebrakov
2011-04-21, 12:26 PM
My friends, you do good work here. Extremely good work. I'm just a lurker, but I hope that you all know that I check this thread every single day. Sometimes more than once a day. Since its inception. And I am sure that there are many others like me. The stuff that you guys are making is always cool and is almost always extremely high quality.

Gorgondantess, Hyudra, Kyuubi: you guys have done an excellent job. I like you guys, and I think that the three of you have kept this project from degenerating into madness. Good work.

But apparently, we need a new system to organize things.

I believe that if we split this thread and each go out into the forums doing our own thing, a great deal of the organization and energy of this thread will be lost. Likewise, taking this to a new forum will mean that many of our posters will slough off and few new ones will join up. I don't think that these are good ideas. I really do like Zemro's suggestion, but I think it will be impossible to retrofit all of the organization we've already done to fit it. (How are we going to vote on every single monster class that has already been submitted?)

I recommend that we draw inspiration from RoC's Homebrew Galleria. They seem to get things done and they don't seem to draw anyone's ire. I know that something along these lines has been tried, but I think it would be a success if it were well implemented.

We are inclusive; all classes are accepted to the thread. We are also concerned with quality; all classes listed on the front page have passed through extensive quality control.

We have several simple rules:

All monster classes need to be nominated. In order to do so, they must be seen as: grammatically correct, clean, fairly balanced and essentially complete.
To be put on the 'complete list' on the front page, all nominated monster classes must then receive 5 motions of support.
In order to support a class, you must have submitted a class that has been added to the list or you must have offered three critiques of monster classes submitted to the thread.
People who have submitted more than 5 classes or offered more than 15 critiques may support something twice (This rewards those heavily invested in the project. Ie. 'Gurus').
If you wish to submit more than one class at a time, you must offer 2 critiques between your submissions and your first class must at least be nominated.
More rulings can be added as necessary.


I think this will work. I think it will be fair and just, maintain the level of quality that we've seen, and keep the moderators from finding our project untenable.

Good luck. I like you guys a lot. I hope this problem clears up so that more monster classes can be produced and perfected.

Hyudra
2011-04-21, 12:53 PM
Afraid that won't work, Serebrakov.
We tried the 'motions of support' thing in the past, after a fashion.
What happened is that we either had a wave of support for stuff that was 'cool' but not terribly balanced or high quality or monsters didn't get any support at all.
Well done monsters, sadly, didn't get enough support.
The end result was a lot of crap, excuse my vernacular, getting past the radar, and the unfinished monster list ballooned out to 25ish monsters, and we never fully bounced back from that.
According to the mods we've talked to, we're not allowed to have gurus, or anyone with more clout than the average poster.
We're supposed to have a minimum of procedure, maximum of openness/inclusion. It's been strongly implied that if we don't suit the wishes of the mods, they'll shut the thread down rather than inform us we need to go further... so I worry at even the amount of procedure you outline.
It's possible that any rating system or judging system for monsters will get the thread locked.

Mystic Muse
2011-04-21, 01:01 PM
It's possible that any rating system or judging system for monsters will get the thread locked.

Hence my suggestion to take this to our own forum and continue it there. It's better than the project dying or not being taken seriously because of monsters that were put together in a couple of minutes.

Like I've said, it's not a great option, but I prefer it to the project dying. Even if I haven't been contributing as much as I should.

Kobold-Bard
2011-04-21, 01:14 PM
...

According to the mods we've talked to, we're not allowed to have gurus, or anyone with more clout than the average poster.
We're supposed to have a minimum of procedure, maximum of openness/inclusion. It's been strongly implied that if we don't suit the wishes of the mods, they'll shut the thread down rather than inform us we need to go further... so I worry at even the amount of procedure you outline.[/list]

I'm sure this has been done to death in private, but without the procedure then the project can't work. There has to be a yardstick against which stuff is measured (originally Oslecamo's mind, now the council system) otherwise it's the monsters will vary so greatly in power & usability that no sane DM would allow these classes, and the thread is pointless.

So if the mods require no review system at all the choices are likely either lists of mismatched classes or the project moves to another forum (which would suck because I'd miss it tbh, but such is life). Maybe Competitor Games (that one Fax & DragoonWraith made)?

Cogidubnus
2011-04-21, 01:23 PM
Maybe we should all just walk away from the thread for, say, 3 days. Let our brains settle, see what we feel. After that, we see how many people would continue to work on the project in another forum.

Hyudra
2011-04-21, 01:37 PM
I'm sure this has been done to death in private, but without the procedure then the project can't work. There has to be a yardstick against which stuff is measured (originally Oslecamo's mind, now the council system) otherwise it's the monsters will vary so greatly in power & usability that no sane DM would allow these classes, and the thread is pointless.

You've got the grasp of the situation.


So if the mods require no review system at all the choices are likely either lists of mismatched classes or the project moves to another forum (which would suck because I'd miss it tbh, but such is life). Maybe Competitor Games (that one Fax & DragoonWraith made)?

I wouldn't go so far as to say the mods require no rating system at all. I don't want to put words in their mouth. That said, they've not detailed anything specific for us, Gorgon's requests for details on the rules and/or rulings didn't get us anything clearer (in fact, it just had the mods lay out harsher expectations), and the last few times we tried to interpret their statements, we found that we were underestimating what they wanted in the way of concessions and changes.

What they have said is that they don't want anyone in a position to make judgments on others' work, and they have strongly implied that they'll lock the thread rather than have it be any more of a hassle to them (which, as it happens, makes trying to contact them or get details kind of risky). All of the above in mind, I'm in a position where I'm assuming higher/harsher expectations than not, because the alternative is a thread lock. It's frustrating, {SCRUBBED}

As Cognidibus suggested, I'll try and step away for a bit. The best way to contact me in the interim will be on AIM.

Benly
2011-04-21, 03:10 PM
I wouldn't go so far as to say the mods require no rating system at all. I don't want to put words in their mouth. That said, they've not detailed anything specific for us, Gorgon's requests for details on the rules and/or rulings didn't get us anything clearer (in fact, it just had the mods lay out harsher expectations), and the last few times we tried to interpret their statements, we found that we were underestimating what they wanted in the way of concessions and changes.

What about the "anyone willing to do the job regularly and on a timely basis can be a review volunteer and gets their reviews indexed" system I suggested? It's not a threadwide vote, but it would seem about as egalitarian as you can get short of that.


What they have said is that they don't want anyone in a position to make judgments on others' work, and they have strongly implied that they'll lock the thread rather than have it be any more of a hassle to them (which, as it happens, makes trying to contact them or get details kind of risky). All of the above in mind, I'm in a position where I'm assuming higher/harsher expectations than not, because the alternative is a thread lock.

I've been a mod on other large forums, and in my experience it's less hassle having someone message you politely and say "would this be an acceptable solution?" than flail around trying to guess what you're thinking. That's just my perspective, though, and I obviously can't speak for the mods here.


It's frustrating, especially given that it's likely one of the thread trolls that set this whole thing in motion.

I'm not sure about that. You could argue about what triggered it, but we were definitely seeing a little of the Dr. Doom come out.

NineThePuma
2011-04-21, 03:13 PM
Competitor Games might not be a very good choice, as Oslecamo is there, trying to 'reget' the stuff off the ground.


And his stuff has been FURTHER broken from what I've read.

Kobold-Bard
2011-04-21, 03:18 PM
Competitor Games might not be a very good choice, as Oslecamo is there, trying to 'reget' the stuff off the ground.

...

Well so he is, probably not a great idea going there then.

Mystic Muse
2011-04-21, 03:19 PM
We could make our own forum. I have a link for making a free one.

NineThePuma
2011-04-21, 03:28 PM
You only have ONE link?

Mystic Muse
2011-04-21, 03:28 PM
You only have ONE link?

Never saw the need for more than one.

NineThePuma
2011-04-21, 03:32 PM
Zeta is superior to most, with a lot of options. I recommend it.

Mystic Muse
2011-04-21, 03:38 PM
Zeta is superior to most, with a lot of options. I recommend it.

Okay. Good to know in case we do move this project off site.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-21, 03:39 PM
Pity Oslecamo's moved in to Competitor: I was particularly thinking of going there, if anywhere.:smallsigh:

Mystic Muse
2011-04-21, 03:42 PM
Pity Oslecamo's moved in to Competitor: I was particularly thinking of going there, if anywhere.:smallsigh:

Well, we could still go there. It would probably be a bad idea but it's an option.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-21, 03:44 PM
Well, we could still go there. It would probably be a bad idea but it's an option.

Yeah, that's a can of worms I just don't want to open. We've already had to deal with him far too much, as far as I'm concerned.

Volthawk
2011-04-21, 03:44 PM
Competitor Games might not be a very good choice, as Oslecamo is there, trying to 'reget' the stuff off the ground.


And his stuff has been FURTHER broken from what I've read.

Huh, here I thought he moved over to the Wizards website...

Mystic Muse
2011-04-21, 03:45 PM
Yeah, that's a can of worms I just don't want to open. We've already had to deal with him far too much, as far as I'm concerned.

I suspected that would be your reaction.

:sigh: Life really is a series of decisions between bad and worse sometimes.

Frog Dragon
2011-04-21, 03:50 PM
I would have advocated going there in spite of Oslecamo, were it not for the fact that he has his own subforum, and thus some sanction to his project from the site itself. As that is the case, muscling in might not be a smart move.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-21, 03:50 PM
Huh, here I thought he moved over to the Wizards website...
He moved over to Brilliant Gameologists as well, yes.

I suspected that would be your reaction.

:sigh: Life really is a series of decisions between bad and worse sometimes.

This is true.:sigh:

NineThePuma
2011-04-21, 03:55 PM
You can still hit Competitor and approach Fax for your own sub forum. I offered critiques on Osle's stuff, and got no response. Or even deleted posts.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-21, 03:56 PM
You can still hit Competitor and approach Fax for your own sub forum. I offered critiques on Osle's stuff, and got no response. Or even deleted posts.

Yeah, I was thinking about that myself, actually. I mean... so long as scuffles don't ensue, it should be fine.

NineThePuma
2011-04-21, 03:58 PM
If you do, you probably want to discard ALL of oslecamo's work.

Mystic Muse
2011-04-21, 03:58 PM
Yeah, I was thinking about that myself, actually. I mean... so long as scuffles don't ensue, it should be fine.

We might as well try.


If you do, you probably want to discard ALL of oslecamo's work.

Good point. This will mean the Pyroclastic dragon will probably have to be remade*. The Styx dragon wasn't entirely remade by him though so I don't think we have to remove that.

*I know it's not the only monster he made or anything, I'm just pointing that one out because it's what I recall off the top of my head.

Gorgondantess
2011-04-21, 03:58 PM
If you do, you probably want to discard ALL of oslecamo's work.

Precisely... and that would likely involve a scuffle.

NineThePuma
2011-04-21, 04:15 PM
With who? The rles of the project?

Makiru
2011-04-21, 04:20 PM
It seems to me that the best option available to us (i.e. the one that doesn't get us in trouble here and lets us get the content to as many people as possible) would be to start our own board for just this purpose and have a thread here that serves as an index for any interested parties. If people really want to mess with the thread, then they would have to join over there, where they would just be at our mercy.

The way I see it, Kyubbi, Hyudra and Gorg would be the three admins while anybody else who has proven themselves to be a competent brewer and reviewer (ex. Kobold-Bard, Cogidubnus, Lord Gareth, Zemro, and possibly myself) would be a moderator, at least in title only. Admin critiques would carry the most weight, obviously, but any mod would be able to endorse/approve of a particular class.

It is regrettable that it seems like we can't continue the project in any reasonable form here anymore, but at the same time, I would rather not see this die. This series of threads has gotten me to homebrew more that I have on my own ever since I started playing.

Bloody Initiate
2011-04-21, 09:04 PM
Been catching up on my reading, thought I'd comment on what's been discussed so far:

There will always be a "bottleneck" as long as it is up to someone to maintain the front page index. I also don't think it's unfair or otherwise against the rules to still encourage thorough critiquing of a monster class. I don't think removing quality control was the intention of the moderators who posted, I think removing pettiness under the guise of quality control was.

What they didn't like was the idea of the people maintaining the thread being viewed as a privileged or master class, as Benly has been suggesting. "Council" implies a position of superiority and judgement. "Editor" and "Indexer" do not. They also didn't like the idea that people had to get special permission to post (I'm just going off what they posted), which as been eliminated already.

It still makes a lot of sense for monster classes to be thoroughly critiqued, which is really the only difference between a rough draft and a polished racial class. Having a rating system seems like a neat idea, but what seems most important to me was what was most important all along: Hard work, peer reviewed, and polished off with a bit more work (In response to the peer reviews). I don't see how the mods' suggestions and statements have changed that.

Cogidubnus
2011-04-22, 05:39 AM
Been catching up on my reading, thought I'd comment on what's been discussed so far:

There will always be a "bottleneck" as long as it is up to someone to maintain the front page index. I also don't think it's unfair or otherwise against the rules to still encourage thorough critiquing of a monster class. I don't think removing quality control was the intention of the moderators who posted, I think removing pettiness under the guise of quality control was.

What they didn't like was the idea of the people maintaining the thread being viewed as a privileged or master class, as Benly has been suggesting. "Council" implies a position of superiority and judgement. "Editor" and "Indexer" do not. They also didn't like the idea that people had to get special permission to post (I'm just going off what they posted), which as been eliminated already.

It still makes a lot of sense for monster classes to be thoroughly critiqued, which is really the only difference between a rough draft and a polished racial class. Having a rating system seems like a neat idea, but what seems most important to me was what was most important all along: Hard work, peer reviewed, and polished off with a bit more work (In response to the peer reviews). I don't see how the mods' suggestions and statements have changed that.

Not so much changed that as made us tread extremely lightly about what we do. I think some of us have a tendency to automatically want to create a hierarchy (I do), which the mods don't want, and others feel a quality control system is needed, which the mods also don't want. I do like Makiru's suggestion, and feel we should carry it through. It spreads out the workload a bit and allows us to decide on our own rules, without upsetting any of the Playgrounders. I'm sure the mods would allow us to leave an index here, with a link to the forum where it was all made.

Bloody Initiate
2011-04-22, 04:30 PM
From what I could tell the mods don't mind a quality control system, they mind the hierarchy creating a privileged class. I think you perceive you must tread lighter than is actually necessary.

The part of the quality control system they didn't like was the part where the final "OK" must be given by one of two people. You can still have people critique and refine things without giving them all the back door of "I'll wait til a council member weighs in" which allows them to assume the work will get done without them doing it themselves. Basically because the people in charge of the thread MUST weigh in, other people assume they shouldn't bother, which creates more work for the indexers, not less. Having all classes require the approval of one of two people makes other people wonder why they should bother critiquing at all if they aren't one of those two.

YouLostMe
2011-04-26, 12:42 AM
Hyudra Critique

For the 2 levels you're in that class -- 27 encounters assuming typical exp, Some 50-80 rounds assuming they're all combat based encounters (and you can't do much outside of combat) -- you're going to be stuck with the boring boring basics. That rates it pretty darn low on the playability rating, if you get what I'm saying.
Yeah, I'm gonna give it two options for stuff to do at level 1... the Leap Attack that chrisrawr brought up sounds appealing (though I have no idea what it means), and I think I'm gonna do something about a ridiculous lunge, like a 10' step instead of a 5' step or something.


Also, you gave it full BAB and a bonus to Str. That kinda goes against thread standards.
Orcs have +4 Str from level 1, and can take a class that provides Full BAB. This class proves +2 Str and Full BAB at level 1, and then +4 Str and Full BAB at level 2... so, if anything, this is a more balanced way (benefits over leveling) of distributing attributes.

Makiru Critique

Spoiler tags for the class, right now, no exceptions. In fact, formatting in general needs to be redone. There is a link in the first post for it (too lazy to relink).
Sonofa... I'll get to that when I finish these edits. Sorry 'bout that.


We're trying to stay away from ability penalties in this project, except in very special circumstances (the Purple Worm's Dumb Brute ability comes to mind). It's a giant mouth on a deformed body... I plead a very special circumstance.


Subtypes should be had at 1st level, while the rest of the outsider resistances and DR penetration would be in the (Demon/Devil) ability.
I was copying straight from the Imp with reference to the Balor. Both of them get their tags at level 2. If you have a conflicting citation, I am all ears.


Also, it really should be Demon instead of Devil. I'm just saying this before flavor sticklers worse than I take a look at this.
Herrrrrrrp derrrrrp I am a dumb. Yeah, this is supposed to be Demon. Everything is correct except the name. That's getting changed.


Lots of passive abilities. This is a bit of a no-no in the project. Giving players options just besides "I attack" makes it more fun. I know the original Abyssal Maw was all passive abilities, but you are encouraged to make things up.
Yeah... changing this up. First level is gonna have 2 special attacks, and 2nd level is going to provide for iterative attacks.


Abilities (beyond "Devil" and bite attack) don't scale. Just off the top of my head, the initiative bonus from Blitz could be +1/+2 per HD instead of a flat +2. Again, go wild and make things up.
Well, I'm really not a fan of +1/HD scaling, as it ends up with +RNG by 20 HD (far sooner if you're using any Init buff like Dex Boost, +Init Items, Improved Init)


No grammatical errors as far as I can see, though. That's one thing you have going for you, at least. I pried myself on lack the of gramatical errors make.


What's it going to use Pounce for? It only has one natural attack, so there would be no full-attack routine to apply it to, unless (as you said) someone was dumb enough to give the maw a sword instead of letting it bite people. I guess it would be useful if you were going into Totemist right afterward and focused on getting as many NAs as possible, but it makes no sense on the class as is. Getting rid of. Doing other stuff nao.[/quote]

chrisrawr Critique

That's uh, a lot of skills. Are you sure they can craft? I can't see these guys sitting down long enough to whittle out a good basket, but that's just me. I could be mistaken.
Well, all Outsiders are supposed to get 8 + IntMod skills... so I thought cutting the skill points in half was enough of a cut. But I agree, it's too many skills. I'm making it 2 + IntMod and cutting out Intimidate (added because they're scary and being scary means using Intimidate... but it's not necessary, and I don't like the flavor of a Cha skill in this class) and Craft (I thought all classes had Craft as a skill... but monster classes are the exception!).


Languages?
Done. Does having Abyssal naturally look good? I added in a thing about not knowing Common from the get-go, so players will need to give themselves +1 IntMod to learn it (or they could go with Speak Language, but let's try to hide that idea :P). It'll encourage MAD... sorta... and hopefully do a little balancing with the whole "I GET STRENGTH BONUSES AND FULL BAB RAWR" schtick he has going.


At level 20, they'll get 5d8 damage, with magic properties coming from a necklace or amulet, and no iterative attacks. Maybe give them Improved Grab, or a poison that scales?
I dislike an improved grab or poison, since this really feels like an "I rip things apart with my teeth" class. I think I'm gonna add an iterative attack that scales at level 2.


Good for killing blow, but you could make this active - "As an immediate action, you may take a 5-foot step and make an attack against an opponent who has been downed within the last turn. This does not count against your number of attacks or 5-foot steps per round."
I like that concept, but it'll step on the toes (thematically... sorta) of one of the other abilities I plan on adding in here at level 1. Plus, it's literally the only legit ability that the Abyssal Maw has (the version in the MMII), so I really would like to preserve the sanctity.


During a charge," instead of "after" it. "In the first round of combat, an Abyssal Maw gains a +10' bonus to speed, and a +2 morale bonus to any attack during a charge." - this could also be made into a scaling ability; fix the lack of iterative attacks, perhaps? An extra attack at -2, or the ability to continue charging with a direction change similar to the city-scape barbarian? Yeah, I need to change this. I just like the idea of combat starting and BOOM there's a mouth in your face... I want to give the class that sort of ability, and I thought a free charge with bonuses would be nice. It's bland, though...


Pounce with... no other attacks? Perhaps Leap Attack would be better? Or Power Attack? As well, maybe scale initiative with HD?
Leap Attack? What is this leap attack you speak of? Also, I think I'm gonna kick this out and replace it with an iterative attack ability.

EDIT: After some thought on the matter, I have considerably changed the class abilities. They're way more active now. Comment please!

YouLostMe
2011-04-26, 12:50 PM
Double Post... I found more stuff to do, so I did it.

The Felldrakes

[Pic Here]
MMII p.97-99

Crested Felldrake
HD: d12
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Wil|Special
1|+0|+|+2|+0|Crested Felldrake Body, Dragon, Scent, Threaten[/table]
For those using fractional BAB, the Crested Felldrake uses 3/4 BAB.
Class Skills: (2 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Climb (Str), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)

Class Stuff
Proficiencies: A Crested Felldrake is proficient with its own natural weapons.

Crested Felldrake Body: A Crested Felldrake loses all Racial Traits and Features, instead gaining Crested Felldrake features. The Crested Felldrake is a small, quadrupedal Dragon with a land speed of 40ft. It gains a primary bite attack that deals 1d8+1.5StrMod damage. The Crested Felldrake also gains a Natural Armour bonus equal to it's ConMod, and gains +2 Con.

Dragon: At level 1, a Crested Felldrake gains a resistance bonus on saves against sleep effects and paralysis equal to its HD.

Scent (Ex): At level 1, a Crested Felldrake gains the Scent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent) ability.

Threaten (Ex): At level 1, a Crested Felldrake can distract opponents, forcing the fight to come of the dragon. As a move action, the Felldrake can focus on 1 target within 30'. Any creature that the Felldrake focuses on must succeed at a will save (DC 10 + .5HD + ChaMod) or take a -2 morale penalty to attack rolls or the DCs of any saves they provoke, until they attack, cast a spell on, or otherwise target the Crested Felldrake with an effect meant to deal damage or cause a detrimental condition.

Spitting Felldrake
HD: d12
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Wil|Special
1|+0|+0|+2|+2|Spitting Felldrake Body, Dragon, Acid Spit
2|+1|+0|+3|+3|Follow-up Shot, Acid Spray, +2 Dex
[/table]
For those using fractional BAB, the Spitting Felldrake uses 3/4 BAB.
Class Skills: (4 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Climb (Str), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)

Class Stuff
Proficiencies: A Spitting Felldrake is proficient with its own natural weapons and its acid spit.

Spitting Felldrake Body: A Spitting Felldrake loses all Racial Traits and Features, instead gaining Spitting Felldrake features. The Spitting Felldrake is a medium-size, quadrupedal Dragon with a land speed of 30ft. It gains a primary bite attack that deals 1d6+1.5StrMod damage. The Crested Felldrake also gains a Natural Armour bonus equal to it's ConMod, and gains +2 Str and +2 Con.

Dragon: At level 1, a Crested Felldrake gains a resistance bonus on saves against sleep effects and paralysis equal to its HD.

Acid Spit (Ex): At level 1, a Spitting Felldrake gains a weapon, acid spit, with a range of 20' + 5'/HD as a ranged touch attack for 1d4 + 1d4/2 HD acid damage. This cannot be used for iterative attacks and has no range increment.

Follow-up Shot (Ex): At level 2, when a Spitting Felldrake successfully deals damage with its bite attack, it can chose to automatically deal acid spit damage.

Acid Spray (Ex): At level 2, a Spitting Felldrake can choose to create a cone of acid with a distance of half its acid spit range. All those inside the cone take the Spitting Felldrake's acid spit damage, and can make a reflex save (DC 10 + .5HD + ConMod) for half.

Ability Increase: At level 2, a Spitting Felldrake increases its Dexterity by 2.

Horned Felldrake
Under construction. Going to have Full BAB, +4 Str, +2 Con. Will get a horn attack, a roar ability (probably fear debuff or a similar effect to threaten, as the Crested Felldrake). Horn damage will scale, and possibly get used for iterative attacks, and NatArmor will bump up from ConMod to 2xConMod... I might add stances like the medusa, because it still seems a little empty.

chrisrawr
2011-04-26, 01:13 PM
Abyssal Maw
[Pic Here]

Base Class
MMII p.57

HD: d8
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+1|+2|+2|+0|Abyssal Maw Body, Quick Snap, Ridiculous Lunge, Power Attack,
2|+2|+3|+2|+0|Demon, Blitz, Rend Fallen,, +2 Str[/table]
Class Skills (2 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Climb (Str), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis). Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)

Class Stuff
Proficiencies: Abyssal Maws are proficient with their bite attack.

Abyssal Maw Body: The Abyssal Maw loses all other racial bonuses and gains outsider traits (basically 60' darkvision). Abyssal Maws are medium-size outsiders with a base speed of 30' and a bite attack that delivers 1d8+1.5StrMod. The Abyssal Maw gains a bonus to natural armor equal to its Con bonus. The Abyssal Maw gains +2 Strength and -2 to Intelligence or Wisdom (player's choice at character creation). Abyssal Maws know Abyssal, and may learn other native languages of Outsiders or Common by having a high Intelligence score.

Abyssal Maws may choose to move quadrupedally. Their bite attack is unchanged. Abyssal Maws retain functioning arms and hands with fine manipulation, in case you're dumb enough to give them a sword instead of letting them bite people.

At 2 HD and every 6 HD after, increase the bite attack damage of the Abyssal Maw by 1d8.

Quick Snap (Ex): When an Abyssal Maw makes a full attack using only its bite attack, it may choose to gain one extra bite attack. If it does so, all attacks it makes in this round are at a -4 penalty.

At 7 HD, an Abyssal Maw only takes a -3 penalty for using Quick Snap. At 12 HD, it may make 3 attacks with Quick Snap. At 16 HD, an Abyssal Maw suffers no penalty for using Quick Snap.

Ridiculous Lunge (Ex): During a turn when an Abyssal Maw uses a move action to move 10' or more, it increases its reach by 5' for any natural weapons it has until the beginning of its next turn.

At 12 HD, an Abyssal Maw loses the above ability and gains a permenant +5' reach for any natural weapons it possesses. At 16 HD, an Abyssal Maw may make one 10' step per turn instead of a 5' step.

Demon: A level 2 Abyssal Maw becomes immune to poison and gains resistance to electricity equal to its HD, with resistance to acid, cold, and fire equal to half its HD. Abyssal Maws have telepathy out to 30' + 10'/HD.

An Abyssal Maw also gains the [Evil] and [Lawful] subtypes, and its natural attacks and any weapon they wield count as being evil and lawfully aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

Rend Fallen (Ex): An abyssal maw loves to tear into its downed foes. It automatically deals its bite damage any foe it drops with a melee attack.

Blitz: A level 2 Abyssal Maw gains 2 + 1/3HD insight bonus to initiative. In addition, an Abyssal Maw can choose to gain Pounce or the Leap Attack feat (Complete Adventurer).

Ability Increase: At level two, an Abyssal Maw increases its Strength by +2.

Comments
Sooo I know I'm supposed to call monsters before I get to them. But I had a flash of interest, and those usually don't last long. . . so I got to this one quickly. I made sure it wasn't on the Finished, Abandoned, or Interest lists though!... please don't hurt me. :smalleek:

Abyssal Maws reportedly "serve as shock troops in evil armies". Since their description was a tad weak, I added shock-trooper-ish stuff. I think it might be a bit WAY to much... please tell me.

The end result ends with approximately the same stats as it would if you used the non-elite stat array. There's a missing -2 to a mental stat, and a missing +2 to Con. But tossing around bonuses is apparently not something this thread finds good, so I minimized the +stat stuff.

Changelog
25 April 2011: Deleted Shock Trooper, added Ridiculous Lunge and Quick Snap to level 1. Moved Rend Fallen to level 2. Changed Blitz to give a scaling Init bonus and provide Pounce or Leap Attack.

17 April 2011 version: Abyssal Maw
[Pic Here]

Base Class
MMII p.57

HD: d8
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+1|+2|+2|+0|Abyssal Maw Body, Rend Fallen, Shock Trooper
2|+2|+3|+2|+0|Devil, Blitz, +2 Str[/table]
Class Skills ((4 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis). Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)

Proficiencies: Abyssal Maws are proficient with their bite attack.

Abyssal Maw Body: The Abyssal Maw loses all other racial bonuses and gains outsider traits (basically 60' darkvision). Abyssal Maws are medium-size outsiders with a base speed of 30' and a bite attack that delivers 1d8+1.5StrMod. The Abyssal Maw gains a bonus to natural armor equal to its Con bonus. The Abyssal Maw gains +2 Strength and -2 to Intelligence or Wisdom (player's choice at character creation).

Abyssal Maws may choose to move quadrupedally. Their bite attack is unchanged. They retain functioning arms and hands with fine manipulation, in case you're dumb enough to give them a sword instead of letting them bite people.

At 2 HD and every 6 HD after, increase the bite attack damage of the Abyssal Maw by 1d8.

Rend Fallen (Ex): An abyssal maw loves to tear into its downed foes. It automatically deals its bite damage any foe it drops with a melee attack.

Shock Trooper (Ex): In the first round of combat, an Abyssal Maw gains a +10' bonus to speed and gains a +2 morale bonus to any attack during their turn after a charge (in addition to the +2 bonus that charging already provides)

Devil: A level 2 Abyssal Maw becomes immune to poison and gains resistance to electricity equal to its HD, with resistance to acid, cold, and fire equal to half its HD. Abyssal Maws have telepathy out to 30' + 10'/HD.

An Abyssal Maw also gains the [Evil] and [Lawful] subtypes, and its natural attacks and any weapon they wield count as being evil and lawfully aligned for purposes of bypassing DR.

Blitz: A level 2 Abyssal Maw gains +2 to initiative. For the first round of combat that an Abyssal Maw participates in, treat its Initiative at 10 higher. In addition, Abyssal Maws gain the Pounce ability.

Ability Increase: At level two, an Abyssal Maw increases its Strength by +2.


I personally think the class is done. It seems very well at what it does, and would go quite well into a Barbarian :3

Stycotl
2011-04-26, 03:15 PM
i've been away for a while (with school, work and the birth of my little girl!), so this'll be a bit long. but here are my own thoughts on the current state of the project at the moment:

some of you seem to be falling into an all-or-nothing mentality. if the critiquing process can't be entirely controlled or ensured in a way i support, it can't be controlled or ensured at all. sounds a little defeatist to me. a little juvenile too.

quality homebrew has been posted and critiqued on giantitp for many years before this thread and its endless series of councils and masters ever came along. it is entirely possible to have a working monster class project without the control-freak tantrums and drama.

specifics:


The bottom line is, Gorgon does not own this thread; neither do you. I'm displaying courtesy that I am not required to (by the rules of the message board) by even asking the question of whether or not anyone would object. I'm not going to wait indefinitely for an answer to that question. If you want Gorgon to answer the question so badly, PM or IM him and tell him to come answer it...

...Two versions of the same monster can exist simultaneously. Let the DMs and players choose which one they want to use.

I certainly don't expect that once I post something to a public message board that I then have veto power over anyone else posting something similar a year later.

i have been of similar mind for quite a while.


The issue is that when we have had such happen, it's been the ground for some of the most fractious arguments you could imagine, with the thread being filled with pages of argument while two people who are very invested in their own work argue for why their work is superior. All of that plus the added issue of having to critique and review work that's already been submitted (and this is the key reason we don't do the 'multiple creatures of the same type on the front page) is... well, it's just Gorgondantess and myself who wind up having to deal with the brunt of it.

the key reason that multiple visions of what a monster should be are not allowed is because you both set it up that way. you hate doing all of the work yourself, yet you specifically set it up so that you would have to do it all.


I'm all for creativity, believe me. It's just... we've been down these roads before and it's yet to end well.

again, because it was set up that way by you and gorgon. you two proclaimed yourselves rulers of the land, emphatically stated that the responsibilities of the project could not be delegated to others because of lack of qualification, and then cried when there was more to do than you could handle.

so now, the community members of a community project are told that they are being disrespectful for submitting their work to an "open" project because the supreme dictators don't actually manage the project that they volunteered for. they instead narrow the project to a point where a large portion of the community that they supposedly serve is unhappy with the close mindedness of it all.


Oh, no, I'm not saying you can't. I never said you can't, and I never will say you can't. You're free to post what you please, so long as it's within the forum rules. I was more saying, shouldn't? As in, it's kindof rude, and doesn't endear anyone to you, and as this is a community project and it requires the approval of others, it's in your best interests to be respectful.

case and point. rude, because gorgon doesn't have the time to manage the project that he set himself up to be co-arbiter as. as spod mentioned earlier, if a volunteer project manager doesn't have time to manage the project, instead of shutting it down, they should step aside and let others take over.

further, it actually does rather endear her to me, as i have been saying the same things for quite a while now, and it is nice to see that i am not the only one that can't stand your tiny little cyberspace empire. i think it is sad that this project has been continually stymied by a succession of megalomaniacal dictators and "councils" and such.

note spod's fourth possible reason for posting:



Fourth, if I have anything to "gain" other than hopefully the warm glow of someone enjoying my work, it would be to challenge what I see as an attempt to exercise control over other posters and their work. It's absurd that anyone needs "permission" from a select group of posters to post a class on an open thread. If you don't want to respond to it or include it in your master list, then don't. But I don't need anyone's approval to post it.

your constant need to control even the smallest of procedures here has not made this project any better. it has actually driven people away rather.

you don't seem to understand this, but the continued bullying tactics here are decreasing quality participation, not increasing it.


And while we cannot force you to not post, you cannot force us to acknowledge your posts.

except that i have repeatedly said this exact same thing to both you and hyudra, that you don't need to personally critique each class, and you therefore don't need to discourage community members from contributing to this supposedly open project. but you only seem to accept this argument when it suits your personal agenda, not the project or the group as a whole.


I recommend that we draw inspiration from RoC's Homebrew Galleria. They seem to get things done and they don't seem to draw anyone's ire. I know that something along these lines has been tried, but I think it would be a success if it were well implemented.

i personally think that this is the most reasonable route to follow for this project if there is any desire to keep it primarily on giantitp.


Afraid that won't work, Serebrakov.

you didn't try the exact same thing that he is specifying, so you don't know that it won't work. realms of chaos is managing his thread pretty well. granted, his system does not require critiques, merely addendums. but that can be easily enough adapted.

one of the reasons that it hasn't worked in the past is because you refused to actually make it a community effort. you can give the community all of the polls and nominations and votes you want, but in the end, if it is still you two alone dictating all decisions, it still won't work.

this is just the first idea off the top of my head, but i think variations of realms' idea could work:


say that a certain class cannot be nominated until it has received at least three separate critiques or something like that; the author should have the chance to address issues brought up after a round of critiquing and then declare it open for another critique. after it passes all critiques squeaky clean and is finally nominated and endorsed, it gets added to the front page, with whatever addendums community members have felt the need to attach.

in fact, this system could easily incorporate your star rating system in a way. realms of chaos has his basic index, but then he has his special gold star index (can't remember what it is called). so if a critiqued and nominated class receives so many votes of support, it gets a silver star or a blue star or however you want to visualize it.


that still allows minimum procedure and rule enforcement, and maximum inclusion from the community––as per the mods' orders and our goals. at the same time, it encourages thoughtful critiques (especially with serebrakov's idea that you can't nominate classes, submit classes, etc, without offering critiques first), and it will eventually get your classes cleaned up to specifications, while allowing for the opinions of differing community members to be heard as to whether the class is as good or bad as everyone is saying it is.

further, it releases, you, hyudra, and you, gorgon, from your self-imposed roles as critiquers-of-everything-under-the-sun. if you don't want to critique another half dragon because you're already dissected three others this week, don't. if no one else does, it wouldn't have happened anyway. if everyone else does, then they're not hurting for lack of your attention (despite how lousy everyone else is at balancing homebrew compared to yourselves, in your respective opinions).

as i said, this is just off the top of my head, but i think that realms of chaos has a working system that is obviously enjoying a lot of support and a lot of moderator-independence because it doesn't seem to be stepping on anyone's toes or causing a ruckus.

the general mandate from the mods seems to be no more high horses, so if we can keep from trying to make ourselves into forum royalty, a moderate, respectful rating system (such as the one that realms uses, and without incident as far as i have seen), should not make the mods bat an eyelash.


It's frustrating, especially given that it's likely one of the thread trolls that set this whole thing in motion.

that was entirely uncalled for. i'm not sure you who are referring to, but i think i have an idea. and that person was simply trying to collaborate in a supposedly open and hospitable forum.

i don't agree at all that it was a "thread troll" that set this whole thing in motion, but a few bossy playgrounders that think too highly of themselves and too little of others.

EDIT: something i just noticed, you mentioned "one of the thread trolls." meaning multiples. as far as i can tell, there have been none, but obviously you disagree. i'd imagine i'm on that list of "trolls" then since i have disagreed with your project philosophies so much. either way, not a very nice way to encourage cooperation, hyudra. if there have been any actual trolls on this thread, i must have missed them, and if so, my apologies. otherwise, disagreeing with you, no matter how many times or how ardently, does not constitute being a troll.


Competitor Games might not be a very good choice, as Oslecamo is there, trying to 'reget' the stuff off the ground.

i don't see why that would have to be an issue. pull out oslecamo's creations, and then give him credit on the front page (which we should have been doing from the beginning if we aren't already) for the project's initiation. then he has no valid complaints either way. fax is a respectable and respectful enough person to be able to handle any potential bickering on his part so long as we behave ourselves.

of course, an alternate site is just as easy in most respects.


From what I could tell the mods don't mind a quality control system, they mind the hierarchy creating a privileged class. I think you perceive you must tread lighter than is actually necessary.

The part of the quality control system they didn't like was the part where the final "OK" must be given by one of two people. You can still have people critique and refine things without giving them all the back door of "I'll wait til a council member weighs in" which allows them to assume the work will get done without them doing it themselves. Basically because the people in charge of the thread MUST weigh in, other people assume they shouldn't bother, which creates more work for the indexers, not less. Having all classes require the approval of one of two people makes other people wonder why they should bother critiquing at all if they aren't one of those two.

very nice post, and it mirrors my thoughts more or less to the letter.

quality homebrewing will go on, with or without the complex hierarchies and organizational mind games. and it seems from not only the history of this and others websites, but from this very project, that it will go along better with less squabbling and fewer attempts to control the masses. the indexer's job should be just that, to index. not to crown themselves king of the playground and then pout when others roll their eyes and do things a different way.

conclusion

if some few people find themselves desperately desiring to control the project, but can't find the time or resources to do so, and can't find the willpower or decency to do it respectfully and inclusively, then they need to disappear.

with that in mind, whether or not hyudra and gorgon want to go elsewhere with the project, i say that we continue this one here, but that we do it as serebrakov advised, in the style of realms of chaos' gallery nomination thread. it'll take a few days to hash out the details, and it will require one indexer, with only as many privileges as any other poster.

make no mistake, things will likely move slowly. but compared to the current system of only two playgrounders capable of endorsing anything, if this project is going to continue at all, it won't move much slower than it is now.

Cogidubnus
2011-04-26, 03:25 PM
I do agree that we need more than 2 people capable of endorsing everything, but I've seen this project since Oslecamo was doing it, and I don't know how we manage that neatly. When everybody being able to nominate a monster was tried, with Gorgon and Hyudra having no special worth, no one endorsed anyone else's work. My Brass Golem got no response and just fell through the cracks, for example. So I understand the complaints when they say they've tried it and it didn't work.

I still feel the best response to this was the suggestion to move to our own forum and have admins and mods there, a larger number of them, that spreads out the work without removing any form of quality control. I think it's at least worth trying.

Crafty Cultist
2011-04-26, 03:32 PM
I honestly think that there needs to be some sort of authority on a project like this to stop it from falling apart and losing all quality control. Maybe someone level headed who only takes action when negotiations breakdown and a compromise cannot be reached, but otherwise leaving the judging and evaluation of monster classes to others. They'd have to be trustworthy though, and giving an opportunity for the advisor to be changed every month or so means that abuse of the position will result in losing it.

Stycotl
2011-04-26, 04:02 PM
I do agree that we need more than 2 people capable of endorsing everything, but I've seen this project since Oslecamo was doing it, and I don't know how we manage that neatly. When everybody being able to nominate a monster was tried, with Gorgon and Hyudra having no special worth, no one endorsed anyone else's work. My Brass Golem got no response and just fell through the cracks, for example. So I understand the complaints when they say they've tried it and it didn't work.

I still feel the best response to this was the suggestion to move to our own forum and have admins and mods there, a larger number of them, that spreads out the work without removing any form of quality control. I think it's at least worth trying.

i don't think that there is anything wrong with doing it off-site. in fact, i think it'd be a good idea to do both. i'd still follow both of them. my obvious disagreements with hyudra and gorgon aside, i still value their homebrew and i'd still follow their solo project as well as anything we did here. i even check in on oslecamo over at the bg forums and incorporate his stuff into my library when it sparks my interest.


I honestly think that there needs to be some sort of authority on a project like this to stop it from falling apart and losing all quality control. Maybe someone level headed who only takes action when negotiations breakdown and a compromise cannot be reached, but otherwise leaving the judging and evaluation of monster classes to others. They'd have to be trustworthy though, and giving an opportunity for the advisor to be changed every month or so means that abuse of the position will result in losing it.

it may be that there needs to be an authority for this project to do well in the long run. but not here. the mods have said so over and over, and it would defeat the purpose of the community project in the end––as it has been. so, let the off-site experiments with councils and master circles and crap like that have their way. the giantitp project should be open. period.

again though, i don't have a problem if people want to try both at once.

Hyudra
2011-04-26, 04:49 PM
I find myself somewhat flabbergasted by the responses we get.

It bears noting that the vast majority of the people in this thread are selfish. I dont mean that in a bad way - I'm just saying that at the end of the day, the people who are posting are generally 95% focused on their own work. They demand reviews and critiques for their work and at best they offer a small handful of criticisms for other people's. Left to their own devices, people would not get the feedback they needed to make their work palatable, workable, balanced and fun. For the most part, people were welcoming and (sometimes) thankful for the feedback they got.

There were relatively few who were willing to step up to the plate and give people what they wanted. Generally speaking, at times those individuals weren't posting, the thread disappeared to page 3 or 5 of the homebrew forum. If they/we were participating, activity levels and discussion were high. This occurred at all stages of the project, from the point we paid any attention to quality. The rules people are complaining about weren't us (or at least, they weren't me) demanding to be overlords and ruler supreme of the project. They were us saying "We're doing most of the work here, could you please make life easier on us?"

So I'm afraid people have got it backwards. We weren't doing most of the work because of the rules we'd set in place. The rules were in place because we were doing most of the work. If we hadn't been there, the project would have (and at times, had) died. If the rules hadn't been there, the project would have (and in many cases, did) descend into chaos and infighting. More chaos and infighting than there was post-rules, from my own observation (and believe me, I was vividly aware of it when there was chaos and infighting post-rules).

We went through four major eras in the course of this project. We learned a lot over the course of this:
The Era of O: The start of the project. There was one person managing the thread, and any monster that was posted & deemed done (by the OP or by the community) was added to the master list. The end result was chaos, horrible imbalance in the material, drastic gaps in the quality of work, generally sloppy work and most of all, the project was dismissed out of hand by many. (They'd look at the project, see the flaws, and DMs would refuse to use it in their campaigns.)
The Era of G: An evolution of the previous standard. The project, headed by Gorgondantess, was kept more in line with general rules and expectations for a degree of quality before something would be posted. Through a combination of stress and high workload on Gorgon's part and frustration with Gorgon on the part of the community, there was a falling out and a schism was created.
The Era of Yop: Following the schism, Gorgon and Magicyop came to a compromise, and a nomination system was set in place. People could vote on monsters and promote them to the master list. Gorgon and Magicyop were in place only as administrators and as (slightly more valued) nominators. In the end, though, monsters were nominated only if they were considered cool (and not necessarily high quality) so relatively slipshod work like the Living Spell (which was unplayable as it was) slipped through the cracks while quality work got no attention (see the second paragraph of this post). The end result was that the unfinished monster list ballooned out to 25ish monsters, nothing got done and the quality of the project dropped (better than the Era of O, not so good as the Era of G)
The Era of the Council: The council was instated, with Yop, Hyudra and Gorgondantess, with two or three other posters (Niezche, Craftycultist among them, I think) declining to join. The intent was moderating the quality of the project and using majority votes (2 of 3) to determine if a monster was added to the list. Critiquing of monsters was done on a purely voluntary basis (largely headed by yours truly). While not perfect, we got a lot of really high quality work out there, good feedback from both posters and from people using the work and at a fairly good clip. We didn't manage to recover from the excess of unfinished monsters from the previous era, but we did set to work on fixing some of the bigger mistakes from the Era of O.
That's generally where we've been and what we've done. I'll be the first to admit the council wasn't perfect. I'll even admit we were jerks sometimes... That said, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any ongoing project involving this volume of work where people didn't have bad days, get stressed or get annoyed. Further, the people who tended to complain and make drama were largely those who barely contributed. People who couldn't be bothered to post a monster, let alone a regular critique, or those who finally got around to posting monsters only as a way of demonstrably flouting rules &/or making life harder for the council. Over and over again, people would advocate ideas or rules that we'd already gone through (see the Eras O through Yop) just lacking the background and/or willingness to listen and recognize that we'd been there & done that. Respectfully, I'll just say it's very easy to assign blame and criticize when you're looking in from the outside. Less so when you're actually involved.

A response to two of the points above:

as spod mentioned earlier, if a volunteer project manager doesn't have time to manage the project, instead of shutting it down, they should step aside and let others take over.

I would welcome more people stepping in, not necessarily to take over, but definitely to help critique and administrate the whole project. Trouble is, even among those people with the knowledge base to do so (Craftycultist, Niezck, Zemro, Kyuubi), they just lack the time or inclination to do so. We've asked several individuals: More voices, more division of labor, more feedback, but generally got a respectful "Wish I could, but I'm busy IRL" or "I keep meaning to do more."


EDIT: something i just noticed, you mentioned "one of the thread trolls." meaning multiples. as far as i can tell, there have been none, but obviously you disagree. i'd imagine i'm on that list of "trolls" then since i have disagreed with your project philosophies so much. either way, not a very nice way to encourage cooperation, hyudra. if there have been any actual trolls on this thread, i must have missed them, and if so, my apologies. otherwise, disagreeing with you, no matter how many times or how ardently, does not constitute being a troll.

You'll have to excuse me for being harsh. That said, there were several individuals who took a little too much glee in ganging up on Gorgon and myself and derailing the thread at every opportunity, posting reams of criticism about the way we do things and retreading old ideas... but never stepped up to do anything themselves. Maybe {SCRUBBED} is too harsh an appellation, but I would argue such people were far less supportive to the ongoing success of the thread than those of us who were submitting monsters, offering critiques for others' work and/or putting in hours of work at a time to keep things running.

Gorgon told me that he was kind of tired of the project as a whole, and that the only reason he was contributing for the last while was that he knew the thread would die if he didn't. Speaking for myself, I'm not desperate to control the project, and would (or would have) gladly concede(d) the administration and critiquing duties to anyone who was willing and able, so long as the general idea of producing high quality monster classes was maintained. That's all I ever wanted.

Lix Lorn
2011-04-26, 05:05 PM
I don't suppose one of the mods could be the authority? Vaynor is a homebrewing mod, IIRC... maybe he could?

I agree that a true community effort by nature breaks down.

Crafty Cultist
2011-04-26, 05:10 PM
I don't remember being invited to join the council, but I do want to help this thread. My main problem is that I do not consider myself a qualified judge of balance, and I feel akward judging others work. If it would help the project I'll try to review a few classes, but I dont think I have the skills to play a major part in things. That said, I'll try to be a more involved member of the team from now on.

Hyudra
2011-04-26, 05:24 PM
I don't remember being invited to join the council, but I do want to help this thread. My main problem is that I do not consider myself a qualified judge of balance, and I feel akward judging others work. If it would help the project I'll try to review a few classes, but I dont think I have the skills to play a major part in things. That said, I'll try to be a more involved member of the team from now on.

Forgive me. I deleted the contents of my PM box a little ways back. I remembered you were (at least peripherally) involved in the discussion of what we were doing with the leadership of the thread around the time that the nomination system was dropped, and thought you were among those we discussed the council duties with.

Edit: Just throwing this out there, but I recently did some polishing work on the Frostwind Virago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10568242&postcount=1312) and her Frostwind Powers (Invocations) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10568249&postcount=1313). Any feedback on that front, even a "I'd play it" or "That ability doesn't look that great." would be very much appreciated.

Crafty Cultist
2011-04-26, 07:00 PM
well, I said I'd try to do some reviewing, and you did ask, so here are a few thoughts on the frostwind virago

The class seems to have good flavour and balance, frostbite touch seems a little weak but that was probably intentional as it seems to be a last line of defense for the virago. The geas description in the fairy noble ability didn't really make sense to me either.

As for the invocations

Glacial blast seems overpowered for a least invocation. a 1d6 per HD area effecting attack seems unsuitable to be available from first level, even if it's half nonlethal. reducing the damage to 1d6 plus an aditional 1d6 per odd numbered HD above one seems more appropriate.

Seal of ice is a good ability, but the ability to destroy enchantments seems a little too good. Requiring a certain amount of damage or a certain enchantment bonus on weapons for high level spells would help balance it(Eg a spell has hardness equal to its level, hp equal to double its caster level and requires an enhancement bonus equal to half the spell level minus one.

Hailing volley is to complex and unpridictable. Maybe reduce the damage of the attack significantly but make each target take 1d6 hits. still random, but more reliable.

Snowflurry step seems unreliable. I think a move action would be more suitable than an unreliable swift action, with a range limit that increases if the entry and exit points are covered in snow

This concludes my first real critique of a class. I hope my points are sensible

Hyudra
2011-04-26, 08:32 PM
well, I said I'd try to do some reviewing, and you did ask, so here are a few thoughts on the frostwind virago

The class seems to have good flavour and balance, frostbite touch seems a little weak but that was probably intentional as it seems to be a last line of defense for the virago. The geas description in the fairy noble ability didn't really make sense to me either.

As for the invocations

Glacial blast seems overpowered for a least invocation. a 1d6 per HD area effecting attack seems unsuitable to be available from first level, even if it's half nonlethal. reducing the damage to 1d6 plus an aditional 1d6 per odd numbered HD above one seems more appropriate.

Seal of ice is a good ability, but the ability to destroy enchantments seems a little too good. Requiring a certain amount of damage or a certain enchantment bonus on weapons for high level spells would help balance it(Eg a spell has hardness equal to its level, hp equal to double its caster level and requires an enhancement bonus equal to half the spell level minus one.

Hailing volley is to complex and unpridictable. Maybe reduce the damage of the attack significantly but make each target take 1d6 hits. still random, but more reliable.

Snowflurry step seems unreliable. I think a move action would be more suitable than an unreliable swift action, with a range limit that increases if the entry and exit points are covered in snow

This concludes my first real critique of a class. I hope my points are sensible

Thank you kindly, most Crafty of Cultists. I'll see about making modifications to adjust for your suggestions in the near future.

chrisrawr
2011-04-26, 09:07 PM
What level do casters normally receive geas? From what I remember of it, it's a pretty beastly spell :3

Boreal Whirlwind... is this... Is this Janna's Q, from LoL 0_o?

Forum Staff
2011-04-26, 09:10 PM
You'll have to excuse me for being harsh.

Flaming any poster--even an unspecified group of posters--is against the Rules of Posting. Please refrain from "being harsh" in the future.

That being said, it is strongly recommended that everyone on this thread remember that "quality" is inherently subjective, and that in a community-based project like this one, it is the community as a whole that determines it. In particular, consider the following statement:


In the end, though, monsters were nominated only if they were considered cool (and not necessarily high quality) so relatively slipshod work like the Living Spell (which was unplayable as it was) slipped through the cracks while quality work got no attention (see the second paragraph of this post).

Sounds reasonable at first, but the problem is that the determination of what is "quality work" should be made by the nominators, not the caretakers. If two dozen people vote for a monster to be accepted, it is not the place of one or two to set that vote aside because they do not think it is up to their standards. A democratic process will always include some results that an individual finds unpalatable. The solution is not to set aside democracy in favor of oligarchy (at least not if you want to remain on this message board).

Has that cleared up any questions about our stance on this thread?