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View Full Version : What to do when players go off scene?



valadil
2011-03-24, 10:01 AM
This is inspired by When Players Go Off The Map (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=191854) in the new 4e boards. I would have replied there, but it's a big enough tangent and it's no longer 4e specific.

How do you handle PCs leaving the scene to work on their own private matters away from the group?

I like characters that are highly motivated and follow their own goals without needing me to write plot hooks. I like characters whose goals aren't neatly aligned with the party such that the team is a single cohesive unit.

I don't like ninety minute diversions while the rogue loots a mansion. It's awesome that he wants to do it and even awesomer that he gets to live out his character. But the other players have to sit through it. And then they might have private matters they want to handle too.

So how do you deal with players going off scene? Does it depend on the game (ie, I'm more willing to go on a tangent during a marathon saturday session than on a 3 week night session)?

I've seen a few options. None of them are perfect, but here's what I've encountered.

Note passing. This works for short diversions but is ultimately too slow. If everyone had a laptop I'd consider AIM instead, since that's a little bit quicker and it's harder to tell where messages are going.

Fast forward. The player gets to act out the diversion, but it goes quickly. Few, if any dice, are rolled. I like this for social interactions, but if the player wants crunchy mechanics (ie, sneaking past guards), it's not very satisfying.

Out of session gaming. GM and rogue get together another day and act out the rogue's infiltration attempt. This works if people have the free time. Of course you can run into in game timing issues as well. If the rogue's scene is delayed until next week, and he happens to pick up something that would have been useful, he can't really use it until his scene plays out.

PC conscription. This is actually my favorite method of handling off scene play. I conscript the players who are left out and give them minor roles in the scene. It doesn't always work because you need to have those minor roles handy and you need players who are going to enjoy a random nameless NPC without being too easy or too hard on the acting PCs. My best use of this was in my thieves guild game. Two of the thieves were trying to get info at a poker game. The other three PCs played poker with them. Players could roll to cheat which would let them get extra cards, look at each others hands, get an extra draw, etc. It doesn't sound so interesting in text, but it was one of those scenes that everyone around the table got into, even though only two PCs were present.

Just play it. Some GMs are happy to run with these diversions. I'd only do this in a longer game session, but if that's what you have to work with, why not? I'd prefer if this kind of thing took place when there was some other entertainment though.

Apophis775
2011-03-24, 10:44 AM
I've done this a few times. In the end the we abandoned the campaign because after I had starting hording mass amounts of Platinum and revealed my plan to build an army with which to take over the kingdom, I was more BBEG than pc. Also, my plan didn't go over well (since we were usually working for the king i wanted to overthrow)

randomhero00
2011-03-24, 11:03 AM
This is why I like my players to always have some sort of off business or hobby so that it would explain what they're doing off scene. Nothing that would make them ridiculous amounts of money (that would require heavy roleplay and skill point investment) just something to keep them busy. Like running an orphanage or an inn or a blacksmith.

dsmiles
2011-03-24, 11:14 AM
I suscribe solely to the note passing theory. I'm going to attempt to not interfere with anybody's fun (as much as possible). But on a pee or food break the note passing becomes open discussion with the DM/player (depending on which side of the screen I'm sitting on).

valadil
2011-03-24, 11:18 AM
I suscribe solely to the note passing theory. I'm going to attempt to not interfere with anybody's fun (as much as possible). But on a pee or food break the note passing becomes open discussion with the DM/player (depending on which side of the screen I'm sitting on).

How much can you actually get done during note passing? I find a single message or two to be okay, but when you're having a conversation this way everyone ends up waiting while the GM reads or writes.

Apophis775
2011-03-24, 11:24 AM
Goes back and fourth.

Something fun I've started doing, is texting people their appraise values after they roll, but I'm debating making the rolls myself to drive them even crazier.

Player: How much for this sapphire gem?
Shopkeep: I'll give you 5gp, and thats stretching it...
Player: YOU ******. How dare you, this gem is worth over 100gp!
Shopkeep: It's definatly not...
Player: Is too!

Actually, I had someone fail an appraise check and I told them the value was like 200 gold or something and someone else who made the check got the real value 10 gold. After they all talked about how much they thought everything was worth, he sold his gem to the other player for a middle-price. After all, if the other player thought he could get more for it than he did, doesn't that mean everyone wins ***insert troll-face here***

The_Jackal
2011-03-24, 12:30 PM
Your players need to understand that teamwork is critical to everyone having fun in a roleplaying game. Basically, the 'I'm going to leave the party and do my own thing' is the pen and paper equivalent of Leeroy Jenkins syndrome. You're sabotaging other people's fun to further your own, and it's just not cool.

PS: At least you'll have chicken.

valadil
2011-03-24, 12:43 PM
Your players need to understand that teamwork is critical to everyone having fun in a roleplaying game. Basically, the 'I'm going to leave the party and do my own thing' is the pen and paper equivalent of Leeroy Jenkins syndrome. You're sabotaging other people's fun to further your own, and it's just not cool.

PS: At least you'll have chicken.

I don't think that's always true though. I mean, it depends on the group. One of my groups only plays team games. You just don't run a character that wants to do anything but stick with the group. Other groups I've been in have encouraged independent characters. In one of those groups, all the major story events took place outside of group time, and we only met up to check in on each others' individual plots.

But for that type of game to work, everyone needs to be on the same page with regard to having individual side projects. Maybe it was a bad example on my part to pick on the rogue who always leaves the party, because that's a case where the group is left to wait. What if everybody got an equal amount of solo time?

Escheton
2011-03-25, 07:10 AM
Any pc that only wants to stick with the group and further party agenda needs to see a shrink as far as I am concerned.
Sure, it helps the metagame structure. But it makes you seriously doubt if the pc has a personality of his/her own.

Hatchet91
2011-03-28, 09:21 AM
Your players need to understand that teamwork is critical to everyone having fun in a roleplaying game. Basically, the 'I'm going to leave the party and do my own thing' is the pen and paper equivalent of Leeroy Jenkins syndrome. You're sabotaging other people's fun to further your own, and it's just not cool.

PS: At least you'll have chicken.

we understand teamwork but we also appreciate the humor of minor things such as say 10- 20 g

it actualy worked out in the end for the player because he managed to find someone worse then himself at appraise and sold the crystals for double what he payed me (which was already double what they were worth)

The other thing to rember, that this is a RPG which means knowing your role and playing it, and if your a changeling rogue with aspirations to become a spymaster, you may very well want some extra gold to wieght your pockets to help persuade others to your way of thinking.

Erom
2011-03-28, 09:36 AM
This is one of the few good uses of 4e Skill Challenges, IMO - simplifying an "off scene" action to a couple of rolls. Usually if it's happening while the other players are in combat I give then one skill role per round passed in combat.

It works really well when the performance at the SC determines when the player is free to return to the main combat!

One of the best encounters I've run in my current campaign was an attack on the party when several had stayed behind to pursue off-scene stuff like this, who had to frantically try to pass Streetwise heavy skill challenges to find their party members in time to save them. It actually was pretty tense!

Choco
2011-03-28, 10:01 AM
A method I found that works quite well in most groups I play with is just rapid switching. Play 5-10 minutes on the side story, then get back to the main group (or the other side stories if everyone split up), and keep rotating until they are all taken care of.

It drives me up the wall when my DM does them 1 at a time to completion, cause we are a big group (that loves to split up...) and half the time when the party splits that means 1-2 of us don't even get any play time that session and thus could not have even bothered showing up. For the record, I personally (and about half my regular group) try not to pay too much attention when my character is not present to better facilitate RP between us party members as those present fill me in on the details.

Totally Guy
2011-03-28, 10:05 AM
If it's just a scene we just do the scenes where the player goes off and does his thing.

If it's very significant and it's clear that it would take the character away from something the other players want to do we often try to resolve it with social contest. Each player sets their stakes for getting the other players to join in with what they want to do. Winner gets what they want. The loser usually gains a compromise based on the roleplay and level of partial success that they scored.

We like it.

Earthwalker
2011-03-28, 10:05 AM
The way my group plays is basically.
When we get together the players play as a group (not connected at the hip but all the action is really going to happen to the group)

This works in shadowrun as when you get the job you see it to completion as a group.

Then in between session is any player wants to do thier own thing solo we handle it by emails or a solo session.

The general rule is when we all get together to play, we all get together to play.

Cyrion
2011-03-28, 10:15 AM
A method I found that works quite well in most groups I play with is just rapid switching. Play 5-10 minutes on the side story, then get back to the main group (or the other side stories if everyone split up), and keep rotating until they are all taken care of.



This is how I try to handle things that seem like they're going to be fairly short tangents, especially if the tangent is larger-plot-relevant. Sometimes I do the switch at a point where the soloist needs to plan or look something up, sometimes I do it at a cliffhanger moment or die roll just to be evil. One of the things to try to do on these is make them interesting stories for the rest of the party to watch. If it's not suitable for the rest of the party to watch and it's more than a quick conversation, it doesn't happen at the gaming session where the rest of the party is gathered.

For something longer, I make them do it as a solo adventure outside of the regular session. Yes, they may get something that could have been useful in the non-tangent stream, but them's the breaks. They can use it next time.

Ormur
2011-03-28, 10:56 AM
I usually just play out plot-significant off scene escapades but encourage the loner player to keep them few and far between. If the rest of the group isn't just sleeping or idling switching between scenes is a good idea.

valadil
2011-03-28, 11:11 AM
A method I found that works quite well in most groups I play with is just rapid switching. Play 5-10 minutes on the side story, then get back to the main group (or the other side stories if everyone split up), and keep rotating until they are all taken care of.


How does that work when the main group is waiting for the side story to resolve? Recently we had the rogue changeling try to infiltrate an area by himself and then portal the others in. The rest of the party flat out refused to do anything else until the rogue was in position. They sat in a cave for a week. I kept switching back to them telling them how bored they were and I tried throwing hooks at them, but they just wouldn't bite. They basically said they realized they picked a boring path and accepted that they wouldn't play much until the rogue was done. I managed to improvise a combat for them, but I would have liked something more.

Choco
2011-03-28, 11:19 AM
How does that work when the main group is waiting for the side story to resolve? Recently we had the rogue changeling try to infiltrate an area by himself and then portal the others in. The rest of the party flat out refused to do anything else until the rogue was in position. They sat in a cave for a week. I kept switching back to them telling them how bored they were and I tried throwing hooks at them, but they just wouldn't bite. They basically said they realized they picked a boring path and accepted that they wouldn't play much until the rogue was done. I managed to improvise a combat for them, but I would have liked something more.

If they refuse to do anything it's their own fault, not really much anyone can do about it short of throwing encounters at them.

valadil
2011-03-28, 12:13 PM
If they refuse to do anything it's their own fault, not really much anyone can do about it short of throwing encounters at them.

I agree and they're not usually that boring. Even if the players are at fault though, my "I'm being a bad GM" alarm goes off when 4 out of 5 players are sitting around bored during one of my sessions.

Knaight
2011-03-28, 01:17 PM
My players all have an absolute addiction to splitting up, and I've found that alternating sections works well, provided they stay short.

bokodasu
2011-03-28, 01:21 PM
That is kind of an unusual situation. Normally our rule is that if you want to do solo stuff, you do it on solo time - it gets resolved through email or Skype. Party-splitting is handled by the fast switching mentioned above.

But "we're not going to do anything until you're done your solo campaign?" I guess we'd do movie mode - ok, you go here, this happens, make one roll to cover X,Y, and Z, boom done.

valadil
2011-03-28, 01:36 PM
But "we're not going to do anything until you're done your solo campaign?" I guess we'd do movie mode - ok, you go here, this happens, make one roll to cover X,Y, and Z, boom done.

That's basically what ended up happening. I'd tell the rogue what happened, lead him up to a decision, and whatever he decided on happened. I figure a 10th level Doppelganger can shank some unnamed NPC in the night and replace him without even rolling. It still took longer than I would have liked. Stupid cautious party.

Shadowleaf
2011-03-28, 01:48 PM
My gaming group relies on three systems:

Note-passing for the invisible character going ahead of the group, the Rogue pickpocketing the questgiver, etc.

Smoke breaks when the note-passing leads to a conversation, whenever someone needs to make an important phonecall, or whatever the player can realisticly describe in 6-10 minutes (I go in the house, steal the sword, go out, dice rolled, consequences handled on the spot)

Single sessions whenever the player feels that it is justified. These are handled between gaming sessions. These are usually for pursuing strictly personal plots or goals.

Lyra Reynolds
2011-03-28, 04:12 PM
For short bits, I just put the spotlight on the PC while the rest watches/listens. 20 minutes max.

For longer bits, I do one-on-one sidequests, online. Those can last for seven hours and are usual social things with favorite NPCs the PC has a particular connection with. (I've had 5 hour sidequests in which not a single roll was made!)

And this may be just me, but I also like to write short stories about things my PCs have done. Kind of like RPing with myself. :p So my Changeling Rogue hooked up with her Halforc Wizard boyfriend in a short story, not in the main game or a sidequest. (With approval of the DM of course.)