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Yora
2011-03-26, 07:14 AM
Even in a low magic game, you sometimes need some not quite mundane tricks up your sleeve. Here alchemical elixirs come to bear.

Alchemical Elixirs

Creation: Elixirs are created with the Craft (Alchemy) skill. Though magical in nature and being treated as supernatural effects, they neither require the creator to be a spellcaster, nor the Brew Potion or Craft Wondrous Item feats.
Craft DCs and Prices are yet to be determined, I'll welcome any input.

Use: Elixirs are used like potions or oils.

Toxcicity: Alchemical elixirs are toxic and may poison the user. When drinking an elixir, the user has to make a DC 10 Fortitude save against poison or take 2 points of Constitution damage. Additional elixirs in the body increase the toxic effects, raising the DC by +2 for every toxic effect still in the users system. For example, a character who has already drunk to elixirs and drinks a third one, has to make a DC 14 save to resist the toxicity of the third potion.
Unless specified otherwise, an elixir remains toxic until its effect ends or for a minimum of 1 hour, whichever is higher.

Doses: Some elixirs can be used multiple times at the same time, it's effect stacking. Each dose counts as one elixir when determining the save DC for poisoning, including seperate saving throws for each dose.

Elixirs and Oils
Elixir of Strength: You gain a +4 alchemical bonus to Strength for 10 minutes. Multiple doses increase the duration of the effect by 10 minutes each.
Elixir of Dexterity: You gain a +4 alchemical bonus to Dexterity for 10 minutes. Multiple doses increase the duration of the effect by 10 minutes each.
Elixir of Constitution: You gain a +4 alchemical bonus to Constitution for 10 minutes. Multiple doses increase the duration of the effect by 10 minutes each.
Lesser Healing Elixir: You heal 2d4 points of damage. While the effect is instantaneous, the elixirs toxicity remains active for 1 hour.
Healing Elixir: You heal 3d4 points of damage. While the effect is instantaneous, the elixirs toxicity remains active for 1 hour.
Greater Healing Elixir: You heal 4d4 points of damage. While the effect is instantaneous, the elixirs toxicity remains active for 1 hour.
Elixir of Restoration: You heal 2 points of ability damage. While the effect is instantaneous, the elixirs toxicity remains active for 3 hours. This elixir can restore the Constitution damage caused by elixir toxicity, but as the elixir itself is toxic, it may cause two more points of Constitution damage at the same time.
Antitoxin: (from the SRD) You gain a +5 bonus on saves against poison for 1 hour per dose. Useful to take before drinking a large number of other elixirs. This elixir is not toxic.
Elixir of Heat Endurance: You gain a +4 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saves against heat dangers, but no protection against fire damage. The potion lasts for 8 hours per dose.
Elixir of Cold Endurance: You gain a +4 alchemical bonus on Fortitude saves against cold dangers, but no protection against cold damage. The potion lasts for 8 hours per dose.
Elixir of Fire Resistance: You gain Fire Resistance 10 for 10 minutes per dose. When taking two doses within one minute, the resistance rises to 20, and to a maximum of 30 when three doses are taken within one minute.
Elixir of Acid Resistance: As Elixir of Fire Resistance, but providing protection against acid.
Elixir of Cold Resistance: As Elixir of Fire Resistance, but providing protection against cold.
Elixir of Electricity Resistance: As Elixir of Fire Resistance, but providing protection against electricity.
Elixir of Low-Light Vision: You gain Low-light vision for 1 hour per dose. This effect is an extraordinary ability.
Elixir of Darkvision: You gain Darkvision for 1 hour per dose. This effect is an supernatural ability.
Elixir of Water Breathing: This thick and oily elixir has to be poured into the users lungs where it sticks for 1 hour and enables the user to breath water, but not air. Additional doses can be taken at later points while earlier uses of the elixir are still active, resetting the duration back to 1 hour from taking the last dose. The potion is not toxic, but users have to make a DC 15 Fortitude save when taking the first dose or become sickened for 1 minute. When the effect of the elixir ends, the user has to expell it from the lungs, which causes him to be nauseated for 1 round. He also has to make another DC 15 Fortitude save or become sickened for 1 minute. Strong alcohol dissolves the elixir, forcing it to be expelled from the lungs immediately. If the elixir is expelled while the user is still underwater, he immediate needs to make saves against drowning as if he already reached the maximum number of rounds he can hold his breath safely.
Silversheen Oil: When a piercing or slashing weapon is coated with this oil, it is treated as a silver weapon to overcome damage reduction for 1 hour.
Feybane Oil: When a piercing or slashing weapon is coated with this oil, it is treated as a cold iron weapon to overcome damage reduction for 1 hour.

If you have ideas for the Craft DCs and prices, or for additional elixirs, please post them.

Mayhem
2011-03-26, 07:40 AM
Awesome, I've been struggling for years figuring out how non-magic alchemy works. Yora, why is all your stuff so good :smallbiggrin:?

There's poison brewing rules, in all places, in this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20modern/we/20021103a) d20 modern web enhancement from WotC. Might be of some use, I'm too tired at the moment to be of further help.

Kurtmuran
2011-03-26, 08:28 AM
good tread i was searching for this a few weeks a go thankyou

Yora
2011-03-28, 03:28 PM
Thanks for the replies, though I have to admit I'm a bit stuck with this right now. Comming up with additional substances isn't much of a problem, but for now the price and craftic questions remain to be solved.

I've been told that Complete Arcane established that the time for making poison is tracked in gp indtead of sp, speeding the whole process up by 10 times. Which I think seems quite appropriate for an expanded Craft (alchemy) skill.

But the main issue remains pricing. Above 1st level potions become rediculously expensive to the point that in a low treasure campaign, they are outright unaffordable for the small benefit they provide. But going too significantly below that feels kind of cheap, in every sense of the word.
So if anyone has any thoughts that might get to a solution for this problem, I'm open to all suggestions.

Thugorp
2011-03-29, 04:26 AM
I love this stuff.

If I might make one suggestion though, your Healing Elixirs are better than the cure potions they are meant to replace. The reason I do not think this is a positive is because alchemy is always suposed to be a little weaker and more shoddy then Magic(plus it is exessible to everyone and not just mages[which is already a huge plus]) might I suggest lowering the amount healed by 1d4 in each case.

always remember that 2d4 is better than 1d8 because the minimum is 2 instead of 1.

Eldan
2011-03-29, 04:54 AM
It's usually 1d8+1, though.

Anyway, I like it. Toxicity reminds me of the Witcher Alchemy system a bit, which is a good thing, actually.

How about one to remove fatigue (temporarily or permanently)? That seems to be a staple of alchemy.

Yora
2011-03-29, 05:01 AM
Let's do a quick check:
2d4 = 5
3d4 = 7,5
4d4 = 10

1d8+1 = 5,5
2d8+3 = 12
3d8+5 = 18,5

Given how cure light wounds potions work, they also have a minimum of 2, but on average heal 10% more hp than light healing elixirs.
For the stronger potions and elixirs, the effect is even more in favor of potions. +60% for cure medium wounds and +85% for cure critical wounds, always with a much higher minimum amount.
To see if the effect is truly balanced, one would have to consider the price for them, which as I said, is still completely open.

Thugorp
2011-03-29, 09:26 AM
hmmm, Thank you for that. In truth right after I posted, I considered that something like that might be the case but I was just to tired to figure it out... or even delete my post... I have to learn to stop doing late night posting.


I would thinkthat they should be significantly cheaper than potions(alcamy should almost always be significantly cheaper).

also, I would love to see a huckster selling healing elixers as healing postions.

begooler
2011-03-29, 11:46 AM
I like these a lot!

However, they seem like they are a bit too good to not be priced almost the same as potions.

Another thing to compare these to is drugs in BoVD. Many drugs provide a beneficial effect, but usually only a +2 to X, rather than +4. (Sometimes, +2 to multiple stats.) They almost always have a secondary effect, which you automatically suffer from if you take them voluntarily, and it often involves ability damage. Lastly, you can become addicted to them, taking ability damage every few days if you don't satiate.

These elixirs seem to be more beneficial than the drugs, but with less drawbacks.

Also to consider when pricing them, is that because they provide alchemical bonuses, they can be taken along with real potions and the bonuses will stack. Generally, when something provides an uncommon bonus type, it is more expensive.

Maybe one thing you can do with the pricing to keep them cheaper than potions, but expensive enough is to sell them in batches that contain many doses. For example, you can't buy one dose of the Elixir of Strength. You have to buy a whole bottle of the elixir that has 10 doses. Perhaps the bottle costs the equivalent of two potions of Bull's Strength, however the fact that it gives you 10 uses makes it much more affordable at the end of the day. This is similar to how wand prices work. Much cheaper per use of the spell, but you have to cough up a lot more cash up front.

Yora
2011-03-29, 12:42 PM
Good points. Given that they stack with everything, halving the benefits of ability boosts and energy resistance elixirs seems appropriate.
If you want to fight a red dragon, get a real potion of protection from energy.

Thugorp
2011-03-29, 12:58 PM
or perhaps make them really very cheap but only with the affects of the resistance spell? resistance 5 with a max of 30?(which adds to the risk?)

compare to other alcomical substances which usually only mimic 0-1st. level spells.

Yora
2011-03-29, 01:02 PM
But then they are mere props without any real use. How often do you see people buy vials of acid or antitoxin? I don't I've either ran or played in a campaign in which any character or NPC was inpossession of such items. People rather invest real money to have some real effect from their items.

Thugorp
2011-03-29, 11:42 PM
Well... I use them, but I do see your point.

Marxism
2011-04-03, 12:03 AM
I love these I just wish there were more that offered some benefits that are not already spells.

Thugorp
2011-04-03, 03:50 AM
Agreed, exotic afects are always ausome, and I think alcomics are the best way to bring them. :-)

Yora
2011-04-03, 05:10 AM
I love these I just wish there were more that offered some benefits that are not already spells.

If you have ideas, let's hear them.

Mulletmanalive
2011-04-03, 08:40 AM
Ok, just gotta check, would being cheaper than potions be a bad thing?

Just hear me out...

Ok, so a potion is worth 50gp x caster level x spell level, meaning that a potion of Cure Light Wounds is 50gp. That's significantly more than the 10gp xx that you'd need to pay a cleric to cast it for you and significantly higher again than the 15gp equivalent cost per casting for a Wand [750/50 charges = 15gp per casting].

And that's before we even consider the action costs to use; the Potion is ridiculously expensive in a 2-3 round average optimiser play combat [not my area but i know it well enough] at a cost of a Standard action. That action could be used trimming the enemy out of existance instead and that incredibly expensive potion is not looking so good. I mean, fine, you could buff before the fight, but you're going to want it over and over so wand it up.

Now consider that these elixers have a habit of hurting you just when it's least opportune.

I'd say that the bonus is worth less than a potion, simply because, if you're keeping wands in play, potions are pants. Simply poor economic sense and should be passed over for the more action economic and monetarily cheaper wands.

In short, I don't see an issue with these things costing 10-20gp, simply if it means that they're in play. Make potion bracers available for move/swift action use and they'll be a constant, if useful, drain on your player's gold, which is usually a good thing from a GM's perspective...

Thugorp
2011-04-03, 11:11 AM
I was under the impression that they were cheaper...

Yora
2011-04-03, 11:25 AM
I intend to make them cheaper, but I still have no idea how to calculate prices.

Veyr
2011-04-03, 11:41 AM
It's usually K * spell level * caster level, where K is some constant that depends on the type of item. Among consumables, you have K = 25 gp for scrolls, K = 15 gp for wands (times 50 for 50 charges, plus an additional 75 gp for an eternal wand), and K = 50 gp for potions.

Wands are a pretty good deal, provided you'll use all of the charges. Scrolls are... not such a good deal, but if you need them and you won't use all the charges on a wand, they're worth it in a pinch. Potions are pretty much never worth it, as they have drawback after drawback and cost twice as much.

Mulletmanalive
2011-04-03, 11:43 AM
Base DC = 10 + bonus

double bonus for stat bonuses

bonus equal to half hp healed

Vision equal to equivalent spot modifiers in twilight [whatever the penalty between the mix of twilight lighting and the range modifier for the amount of darkvision you get etc]

not sure how you might price oils in this.

Gp value = Craft DC

Marxism
2011-04-03, 11:04 PM
Stuff that would grant bonuses to yourself like ghost touch. Stuff that would mimic modern tech like elixers that when drunk would allow someone to communicate with another mentally like with cell phones maybe. Or allow the person to grow claws or fangs or a pair of wings or some fun stuff like that.

begooler
2011-04-04, 01:07 AM
Bonuses to specific saves in specific conditions. (Will saves against enchantments by fey, Fort saves vs death attacks, reflex saves vs fire, for example.) If the use is extremely specific you can justify making the bonus high and the price and craft DC low.

Yora
2011-04-04, 02:04 AM
Stuff that would grant bonuses to yourself like ghost touch. Stuff that would mimic modern tech like elixers that when drunk would allow someone to communicate with another mentally like with cell phones maybe. Or allow the person to grow claws or fangs or a pair of wings or some fun stuff like that.
That's not exactly what I had in mind. Those are effects that magic is for, I was thinking more along chemicals that boost natural abilities to normally impossible levels.
Not that I'd stop anyone from making up such elixirs for other campiagns, though.

Cieyrin
2011-04-04, 01:26 PM
Right now, your elixirs have 3 tiers of power (at least, if the grades of healing potions are any indication). Going by Antitoxin as a stable point, which goes for 50 gp and has a craft DC of 25, we can build from there. I think, given Antitoxin is a helper effect to dealing with elixir toxicity, it should be on the second tier, not something a beginner can make but something he strives for to keep his craft useful.

I propose the tiers as follows:

{table=head]Tier|Craft DC|Price
1 (Elixir of Lowlight Vision)|20|25 gp
2 (Antitoxin)|25|50 gp
3 (Restoration Elixir)|30|100 gp[/table]

For elixirs (like the Resistance Elixirs) that have stacking effects, add 5 to the DC and reduce the price to the next lowest tier (15 gp if already tier 1) and multiply the price by the maximum elixir stack (i.e. Resistance Elixirs have maximum effect at 3 doses, so multiply the price by 3) to determine final price. For example, let's say we're making an Elixir of Fire Resistance, which I think should probably be Tier 2 or so, so it should have a Craft DC of 30 (Base DC 25 (Tier 2) + 5 for being stackable) and a price of 75 gp (It's stackable, so we use Tier 1 price (25 gp) and multiply by the maximum effective dose (3)).

It's pretty rough, I guess, but you can adjust as you deem necessary to fit your needs. :smallsmile:

Yora
2011-04-04, 01:43 PM
That actually looks pretty neat. I'll spend some more time on looking into this when I have a more open schedule next week or so.

Still too expensive to be afordable for commoners, but given the prices for simple daggers and such, that 1 SP per day wage is just not working anyway, so I think that's a suitable price range. :smallbiggrin:

Thugorp
2011-04-04, 04:22 PM
Agreed that does look good...(though I could also use a more thourow look :embarased: )

DracoDei
2011-04-05, 11:08 AM
I would strongly recommend that these be limited to the low-magic campaigns that the OP mentions. I smell shenanigans with even Delay Poison and Faster Healing/Restoration, Lesser in slow-paced campaigns. Might not work out that way, but then again it might.

Yora
2011-04-05, 11:20 AM
When you can easily afford wands of lesser restoration and neutralize poison that you can burn through every week or so, toxicity indeed becomes trivial.

Thugorp
2011-04-05, 11:59 AM
Right now, your elixirs have 3 tiers of power (at least, if the grades of healing potions are any indication). Going by Antitoxin as a stable point, which goes for 50 gp and has a craft DC of 25, we can build from there. I think, given Antitoxin is a helper effect to dealing with elixir toxicity, it should be on the second tier, not something a beginner can make but something he strives for to keep his craft useful.

I propose the tiers as follows:

{table=head]Tier|Craft DC|Price
1 (Elixir of Lowlight Vision)|20|25 gp
2 (Antitoxin)|25|50 gp
3 (Restoration Elixir)|30|100 gp[/table]

For elixirs (like the Resistance Elixirs) that have stacking effects, add 5 to the DC and reduce the price to the next lowest tier (15 gp if already tier 1) and multiply the price by the maximum elixir stack (i.e. Resistance Elixirs have maximum effect at 3 doses, so multiply the price by 3) to determine final price. For example, let's say we're making an Elixir of Fire Resistance, which I think should probably be Tier 2 or so, so it should have a Craft DC of 30 (Base DC 25 (Tier 2) + 5 for being stackable) and a price of 75 gp (It's stackable, so we use Tier 1 price (25 gp) and multiply by the maximum effective dose (3)).

It's pretty rough, I guess, but you can adjust as you deem necessary to fit your needs. :smallsmile:

Why not just consider Resistance Elixers tier 1? It seems unfair to penalize players because an item's designers decided it should be stack-able. Rather just make it tier one and keep it in the normal pricing system. It is simpler anyway. Or you could just keep it 50gp. I know that ended up not sounding like a question, but please know that it was meant as one and a response is wanted. :-)

Cieyrin
2011-04-05, 01:11 PM
Why not just consider Resistance Elixers tier 1? It seems unfair to penalize players because an item's designers decided it should be stack-able. Rather just make it tier one and keep it in the normal pricing system. It is simpler anyway. Or you could just keep it 50gp. I know that ended up not sounding like a question, but please know that it was meant as one and a response is wanted. :-)

As I said, it's a pretty rough system that I threw together in like half an hour or so, so it certainly needs some refinement, as I mostly eyeballed DCs and prices and made a system that modeled with it. I felt, when I put it together, that stackability was a characteristic that needed examination and should be worth more than elixirs that have effects that are standalone. That's just my opinion, though, and ultimately it's up to Yora on what he wants done with it and that if he feels that bit should be dropped, all the more power to him.

Thugorp
2011-04-05, 01:17 PM
Yora's not a girl?

Yes yes, but I guess my question comes down to, is there some reason why you desided it wasn't just worth bumping it up to the next tier level, or creating another tier especially for stackables?

Cieyrin
2011-04-05, 02:15 PM
Yora's not a girl?

Y'know...I'm not sure anymore, as I thought he identified as a guy at some point but now I'm not sure now...


Yes yes, but I guess my question comes down to, is there some reason why you desided it wasn't just worth bumping it up to the next tier level, or creating another tier especially for stackables?

I suppose just kicking it up a tier would be less mathematics but, really, the players should never see much of the underlying system unless they get into making their own elixirs, as all they'll see is the product of the system. Or if they look up this thread, I suppose. :smalltongue:

Yora
2011-04-05, 02:22 PM
In all fairness, I picked that nick exactly because it's gender ambigous. I somehow always end up with female avatars because female characters always have the cooler costumes. :smallbiggrin:

I'll give Cieyrins formula some number crunching next week, when I have some more breathing space.

erikun
2011-04-05, 02:56 PM
Is there any reason why the healing elixirs are so, well, bad? The best one only heals 10 HP average, which is certainly nice in the first few levels but becomes an insignificant amount by 5th level, at the earliest. Everything else looks useful, especially the ability score buffs which can stack with magical item enhancements. (Gauntlets of Ogre Power don't stack with Bull's Strength, but the do with the Elixir of Strength.)

As for other elixirs, one granting the Scent extraordinary ability, one granting the equilivant of Expedious Retreat, and one granting the equilivant of Haste would all be fitting. You would probably want to ensure that they don't stack with existing spells though, Haste especially. I'm sure there are other abilities (Blindsense, 10' perhaps) that would also make good elixirs.

Thugorp
2011-04-05, 10:23 PM
Might I suggest, instead of copying existing spells and postions making the rest of the elixsers(future elixers) only affects that haven't already been done?

Yora
2011-04-06, 11:58 AM
The Elixir system is primarily intended for E6 campaigns and other low-level games. To make it usefull for mid or even high-level games, it probably needs a very different approach.

At low levels and in games that don't feature much treasure, having access to cheap knockoffs of actual magical potions does become relevant. Often even a reduced effect is still valuable for characters, and a lower price makes it affordable.

Mayhem
2011-04-07, 12:26 AM
For elixirs (like the Resistance Elixirs) that have stacking effects, add 5 to the DC and reduce the price to the next lowest tier (15 gp if already tier 1) and multiply the price by the maximum elixir stack (i.e. Resistance Elixirs have maximum effect at 3 doses, so multiply the price by 3) to determine final price. For example, let's say we're making an Elixir of Fire Resistance, which I think should probably be Tier 2 or so, so it should have a Craft DC of 30 (Base DC 25 (Tier 2) + 5 for being stackable) and a price of 75 gp (It's stackable, so we use Tier 1 price (25 gp) and multiply by the maximum effective dose (3)).

Looks good, though you forgot a tier. I'll just extrapolate from you then. The 'tier 0' isn't neccessary I suppose but it might be nice to include for completeness.

{table=head]Tier|Craft DC|Price(vial)
1 (Acid)|15|15 gp
2 (Elixir of Lowlight Vision)|20|25 gp
3 (Antitoxin)|25|50 gp
4 (Restoration Elixir)|30|100 gp[/table]

Flask-based concoctions cost 5gp less than vial-based concoctions.

Tentative revised stacking( addition in bold).

For elixirs (like the Resistance Elixirs) that have stacking effects, add 5 to the DC and reduce the price to the next lowest tier (10 gp if already tier 1) and multiply the price by the maximum elixir stack (i.e. Resistance Elixirs have maximum effect at 3 doses, so multiply the price by 3) to determine final price. For example, let's say we're making an Elixir of Fire Resistance, which I think should probably be Tier 3 or so, so it should have a Craft DC of 30 (Base DC 25 (Tier 3) + 5 for being stackable) and a price of 75 gp (It's stackable, so we use Tier 2 price (25 gp) and multiply by the maximum effective dose (3)).

Does that work?

How about lesser and greater versions of ability elixers? Lesser elixer of strength might be tier 2 while greater elixer of dexterity might be tier 4.

Also, how much treasure are you giving out yora? Half standard?

Cieyrin
2011-04-07, 03:39 PM
Looks good, though you forgot a tier. I'll just extrapolate from you then. The 'tier 0' isn't neccessary I suppose but it might be nice to include for completeness.

{table=head]Tier|Craft DC|Price(vial)
1 (Acid)|15|15 gp
2 (Elixir of Lowlight Vision)|20|25 gp
3 (Antitoxin)|25|50 gp
4 (Restoration Elixir)|30|100 gp[/table]

Flask-based concoctions cost 5gp less than vial-based concoctions.

Tentative revised stacking( addition in bold).


Does that work?

How about lesser and greater versions of ability elixers? Lesser elixer of strength might be tier 2 while greater elixer of dexterity might be tier 4.

Also, how much treasure are you giving out yora? Half standard?

If we want to roll all of alchemy under one system, yes, I could see this being a necessity. My crack at a system was merely to cover elixirs and letting the rest of Alchemy do its own thing by the DCs already in place.

Thugorp
2011-04-07, 03:49 PM
hmmm... why not look at existing alchemy rules and seeing if we can't jsut fit it into that system(I am willign to take a crack at this just not right now). After all we don't want people to have to take a hole new skill just for this do we?

Cieyrin
2011-04-07, 04:59 PM
hmmm... why not look at existing alchemy rules and seeing if we can't jsut fit it into that system(I am willign to take a crack at this just not right now). After all we don't want people to have to take a hole new skill just for this do we?

What I put forth does use Craft(Alchemy), though...

The whole tier thing is just to work the elixirs into the system, since current alchemy seems to be gut feelings on what to set them at, rather than trying to generalize. It's a starting point, not the definitive guide to how to do it.

Mayhem
2011-04-07, 05:48 PM
Yeah true, and thinking about it the flasks should probably have their own tier thing, but that's somewhat straying from the point.

Though conceivably a minor elixer of +2 to a single skill or something might be too weak to fit in just 3 tiers.