LGBTAI+ LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen [Archive] - Page 5

rayne_dragon

2011-05-03, 11:27 PM

Uproot your life to move to California and be prepared for an endless stream of flirting while I rebuild my self confidence enough to ask you out? [/stupid creepy self absorbed joke]

Or did you mean sane things you could do? Because I don't have any sane suggestions. The general support here in my favorite playground does help though. I'm feeling much less mopey than a couple of hours ago, so thanks.

I kinda just uprooted my life to move halfway across the country, so that's not going to happen. You're welcome to move to vancouver and subject me to an endless stream of flirting, though. :smalltongue:

As for more "sane" things I could do, I'll just let you know you're always welcome to PM me if you want to talk/vent/etc. about something. :smallsmile:

golentan

2011-05-03, 11:37 PM

Tell you what, I ever move to vancouver I'll call you up and flirt shamelessly with you, my little xe-devil, much to the anger of whatever fine man/woman/other you've ensnared. In the meantime, I'll drop you a line if I need some help.

Coidzor

2011-05-03, 11:52 PM

Now please leave me alone I'm trying to mope.

Moper no Moping! Moper no Moping! Moper no Moping!

Serpentine

2011-05-04, 01:23 AM

Great, now every Valentine's is going to turn into who can mail Serp (er... slerp?) the best gift. :smalltongue:This is an acceptable outcome :smallcool:
My probably not a date was totally not a date. And he's being cool about it. Which hurts way more. Every time someone turns me down or breaks up with me, they tell me that they're flattered or if they swung that way they would be all over me or that someday someone will be really lucky to have someone as awesome as me. AND I HATE IT! [/rant]

*hugs*Awwww. I'm really sorry to hear that, Golly :frown: I was rooting* for you.

**snigger*

golentan

2011-05-04, 01:29 AM

What are you sniggering about?

Also, just for that I'm sending you a literal white elephant next valentines. Anyone know Australia's import-export laws as pertain to livestock over several tons? :smalltongue:

Coidzor

2011-05-04, 02:16 AM

I was rooting* for you.

**snigger*

.... You ok? :smallconfused: I'm pretty sure that golentan is not a variety of truffle and that you are not some kind of truffle hunter.

Serpentine

2011-05-04, 02:22 AM

:confused:

Is this... is this an Australian thing? :smallconfused:

ZombyWoof

2011-05-04, 02:23 AM

Looks like it's an icy-drink thing :smallconfused:

Ashtagon

2011-05-04, 02:25 AM

I'm confuzzled. Are serpentine and slerpintime related in any way?

Serpentine

2011-05-04, 02:27 AM

She's the jerk that lives in my basement and steals all my potatoes.

ZombyWoof

2011-05-04, 02:29 AM

I dunno about that, Serpentine was always (inexplicably) nice to me :smallconfused: This "Slurpintime" character on the other hand... :smallyuk::smallwink::smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Besides, potatoes are cheap.

Heliomance

2011-05-04, 03:52 AM

Well, my favourite people include... Wait, wrong thread.
:eek: I had no idea I had such a fanclub :redface:

I would also like to see some context for that Obama quote.

Sadly, I don't have any. There was no link posted, just the quote.

Edit: a little googling turned up this. (http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/19104/the-secret-white-house-trans-meeting-thats-existence-shouldnt-be-secret)

Serpentine

2011-05-04, 04:01 AM

There's mention of it here (http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=4178), but the source link is broken.

Lix Lorn

2011-05-04, 06:56 AM

That might sound like it doesn't mean much for her to be a fan of you, but I think she's really genuine in her fandomness - it impresses me that she has so much enthusiasm for people.
:smallredface:
Thankyou?

Asta Kask

2011-05-04, 07:28 AM

Well, my favourite people include... Wait, wrong thread.
:eek: I had no idea I had such a fanclub :redface:

You make intelligent posts with great force, standing up for your beliefs. I don't always agree with you but I don't think you've ever posted something I went "That's just stupid" about. And from the pictures you've posted, you look good - which is not unimportant. So, yeah, little crush here. :smallredface:

Serpentine

2011-05-04, 07:35 AM

LGBT thread has become "What We Really Think About Serpentine" thread.

http://www.longbraid.com/distsamplepages/m_ss_distinctive/m_SSImSorryCat.jpg

Also: :smallredface:

Also also: Uh... um... Something LGBT-related... Lady Gaga's Born This Way: Does it live up to her claims that it would be "the new gay anthem"?

blackfox

2011-05-04, 07:38 AM

Also also: Uh... um... Something LGBT-related... Lady Gaga's Born This Way: Does it live up to her claims that it would be "the new gay anthem"?Among the LGBT community? No idea. Among everyone else? They don't take it as seriously as it'd need to be taken. People are used to Lady Gaga being ridiculous.

unosarta

2011-05-04, 07:39 AM

I think the real reason it would be the new "gay anthem" is because it is one of the only songs that actually covers the LGBT community as a whole, and because it is hella catchy. Even if it isn't, I will still listen to it, because the meaning behind the song is what is important, not how it is used to portray a group of people. I agree with the song not because it has connotations or mentions of LGBT related stuff, but because the message (everyone is beautiful, everyone is perfect, no matter of race, gender identity, sexuality, or anything like that) really resonates with me.

Asta Kask

2011-05-04, 07:51 AM

I thought that was I'm Super! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQOWHmP6P5U)

:smallbiggrin:

Qaera

2011-05-04, 07:57 AM

http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lko98xZ8RZ1qjhqd4o1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId =AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1304600178&Signature=KlhS42DE9AZdxvxWd9M3May27R0%3D
No tablet at school

Serpentine

2011-05-04, 07:59 AM

Heh.
Well, the song it's meant to be replacing is I Will Survive. So...

Tono

2011-05-04, 08:25 AM

I actually hate that song. The song itself is boring and lacks anything interesting and the choreographer is boring as hell. Then I again I hate most of all her work and would much rather listen (And look at) people like The Darkness, or Dead or Alive. Or pretty much any of the pretty-boys from the 70s and 80s. Even if they arn't explicitly made for 'The gays' I can get a hell of a lot more out of them.

Serpentine

2011-05-04, 08:33 AM

How about Scissor Sisters?

Asta Kask

2011-05-04, 08:34 AM

A gay anthem?

An anthem is a song of celebration. I think before you choose (or write) an anthem you should decide what you're celebrating. I can think of a couple of things, but I'm not really part of the club, so...

ETA: And happy Star Wars Day!

Ashtagon

2011-05-04, 08:43 AM

As a gay anthem, Born This Way fails. It's a dull song, tbqh. Also, the lyrics are not celebratory so much as defensive self-justification for our existence. Not really the spirit to project into an anthem.

Suitably edited with alternative lyrics (change one word as appropriate), I Kissed a Girl works better.

golentan

2011-05-04, 08:50 AM

:confused:

Is this... is this an Australian thing? :smallconfused:

Having looked it up, yes it is and :smallredface:.

I kind of like Born This Way. It's got a nice enthusiastic rhythm, but I wish it wasn't so repetitive.

Serpentine

2011-05-04, 09:04 AM

I can see it being a lot of fun to dance to in a night club.
And I prefer the other I Kissed A Girl :/

KenderWizard

2011-05-04, 09:10 AM

I haven't actually heard the song because I live in the past (it's the early 90s here in Kendermore). I'm going to go listen to it now because it's exam time, and anything on YouTube is good for some procrastination!

I did read this article (http://www.adiosbarbie.com/gagas-born-this-way-racist-or-revolutionary/) about it before, where a mixed-race LGBT supporter (not sure if she's a letter or an ally) talks about how she had mixed feelings about the song because the part about different races is really awkward and possibly racist.

golentan

2011-05-04, 09:11 AM

I can see it being a lot of fun to dance to in a night club.
And I prefer the other I Kissed A Girl :/

This one? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QaeojQLGQ8) I prefer that one to the other, so much, yes.

Serpentine

2011-05-04, 09:17 AM

That is, indeed, the one I meant.

KenderWizard

2011-05-04, 09:23 AM

Tamburlaine

2011-05-04, 09:30 AM

Hello thread, thought you might enjoy a tale of awkwardness and uncertainty:

(spoilered for being longish and not too interesting)
So, I went to the pub with some friends (as you do) and one of them brought one of his flatmates; I was chatting to her throughout the evening, and we got on quite well. A couple of days later I got a text from her, asking if I wanted to go for a drink sometime.

This kind of thing does not happen to me very often, and I was unsure how to respond. If it was a romantic overture, surely it was my duty as a gentleman to diplomatically inform her of my being (as EM Forster once put it) 'an unmentionable of the Oscar Wilde variety'. However, if she was just being friendly, such a reply would come across as a little presumptuous. Adding to the confusion, she probably got my number from her flatmate, and he definitely knows I'm gay.
I thought it over for a bit, and eventually sent a reply along the lines of the first option.

About five minutes later, I was in the supermarket buying food and congratulating myself on my tact and aplomb, when I rounded the corner and very nearly bumped right into the girl in question! That was fun.

On the subject of a 'gay anthem', I personally don't think one song can properly cover a subject so broad and properly fit everyone. I do like Lady Gaga though.

Asta Kask

2011-05-04, 09:37 AM

Tono

2011-05-04, 10:38 AM

How about Scissor Sisters?

Sorry, missed this. They are fun as hell to watch, but rather boring to listen too? I don't know, something to look at occasional, but not something I could play everyday.

Blisstake

2011-05-04, 10:42 AM

How about A.C.D.C?

:smalltongue:

Nix Nihila

2011-05-04, 10:47 AM

Yeah, that was about as erotic as doing the dishes. She needs to a) eat; and b) stop writing the intros to her songs while tripped out on mescaline. There are words, and they are arranged in sentences but... they just make no sense.

Eh? Which lyrics exactly makes no sense in that song?

I also don't think she was trying to be erotic at all.

As for it being "the new gay anthem", I think it does an ok job, but the religious parts make me a little annoyed.

And although I like the other "I kissed a girl", I don't think it really works as a gay anthem.

Serpentine

2011-05-04, 10:56 AM

Sorry, missed this. They are fun as hell to watch, but rather boring to listen too? I don't know, something to look at occasional, but not something I could play everyday.D:
Whaaaaat? Scissor Sisters boring to listen too? Noooooooo!

Asta Kask

2011-05-04, 10:59 AM

Eh? Which lyrics exactly makes no sense in that song?

The spoken introduction to the song. Gibberish.

I also don't think she was trying to be erotic at all.

In which case she succeeds beautifully. Now, I may be revealing my dirty mind here, but when women prance around in their undies my first thoughts go eroticism.

The thing is, if she tried to evoke an emotional response - anything - from me she failed miserably. Well, to be fair, boredom is an emotion.

Like I said, I'm not really in the club but I would go for something more like "victory against tough odds". Let's face it, the LGBTA movement has had great successes in the West over the last twenty-thirty years or so. You're not all the way to full citizenship yet (sadly) but keep the pressure up and you'll get there. This video just left me bored and slightly puzzled.

Serpentine

2011-05-04, 11:04 AM

So you're sticking with I Will Survive?

Nix Nihila

2011-05-04, 11:11 AM

The spoken introduction to the song. Gibberish.

Yeah, that was gibberish, but it isn't a part of the song (assuming you're talking about the video, and not the lyrics where she says "I doesn't matter if you love him, or capital H-I-M").

Now, I may be revealing my dirty mind here, but when women prance around in their undies my first thoughts go eroticism.
Uh, yeah. This kind of annoys me as an art/fashion person. Partial or full nudity is not always about sex.

I don't know exactly what GaGa was going for in the video, but it seems to me that it was about birth rather than sex, but maybe I'm just weird.

The thing is, if she tried to evoke an emotional response - anything - from me she failed miserably. Well, to be fair, boredom is an emotion.

Fair enough, could it be that you just don't like her style of music? I don't know your musical tastes though, so I might be wrong.

As someone who does enjoy a lot of Lady GaGa's work, I have to say that I was rather disappointed with this song in terms of artistic value. I enjoy listening to it, but there are a lot of other songs I'd rather listen to.

Asta Kask

2011-05-04, 11:15 AM

No, Lady Gaga is very much not my kind of music to begin with. I feel myself growing narrower and narrower in my tastes as I approach curmudgeon-age.

Mystic Muse

2011-05-04, 11:17 AM

Uh, yeah. This kind of annoys me as an art/fashion person. Partial or full nudity is not always about sex.

It's the thing most people I know are going to think of though.

Nix Nihila

2011-05-04, 11:21 AM

It's the thing most people I know are going to think of though.

I suppose, but it still irritates me. It sort of reminds me of that teacher who was fired for taking her students to an art museum where there were nude statues.. :smallfurious:

Asta Kask

2011-05-04, 11:39 AM

I tried out some other theories on her nudity, but nothing seems to work. I think she was going for vulnerability rather than birth, but we don't speak the same iconographic language. I'm lost. Maybe I'm too old. Soon I'll only be fit to wheeled out on memorous occasions.

I'm a little gloomy today, you may have noticed.

Kneenibble

2011-05-04, 12:06 PM

Thank you to those who replied to my dilemma. I appreciate the sincere advice even though I usually just come in here to goof off or be gross.

I am... processing my thoughts on the matter still.

LIES.
LIES AND SLANDER.
*buttslap*

Whee!
You know just what to say.

But stay away from my potatoes. :smallannoyed:

P.S. As a member of the ribs-showing community, I take offense to the degredation of our people's capability to be sexy as we are. :smallmad:

Miscast_Mage

2011-05-04, 12:14 PM

Not a big fan of the Lady Gaga song; like most of her songs it's kinda catchy, but not great. Still, it is nice to get some LGBT support, regardless. Love the I kissed a girl song though. :3c

Although while we're on the topic of a gay anthem, and just plain LGBT music in general; if I had to pick a song to be the gay anthem, it would probably be this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebZMOGNH2n8) ~Aaand because I love him singing in Hebrew (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtJIImuH1RI), here's another of his videos; there's an english version too but I prefer the hebrew version.

Fun fact; this song was one of the things that gave me that twinge-in-the-heart I talked about a while ago. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10781767)

And now for a plain ol' list of LGBT myuusak:

Tatu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mGBaXPlri8) is one of the older ones I can think of. Can't decide if I like them in russian better though. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEf2Z58jRWo)
Ivri Lider (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3AJnHBQ4rY). Also did a cover (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skAMmX-D41Q) of I kissed a girl(the Katy Perry version).
Colton Ford (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhAMgr1sZ9s). There's another of his videos, That's me, which I considered posting, but it's A)rather risque, what with colton really playing up the sexy hunk angle, and B)involves a non-sequitor of rap from another artist that... Gah, just should not be there!:smallfurious:
Aaaand I already mentioned Yehonathan. Okay then. :3c

I swear I'm forgetting someone there, but I have no spooshing clue who.:smallconfused:

Lix Lorn

2011-05-04, 12:16 PM

Best song I could suggest is Mirror (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnGQ4ePZcj0), but that might be a personal thing, or something to do with self esteem or wev, rather than sexuality. I dunno.

Asta Kask

2011-05-04, 12:17 PM

P.S. As a member of the ribs-showing community, I take offense to the degredation of our people's capability to be sexy as we are. :smallmad:

Whatever floats your boats. I like curves on my women. However, I think most people think slim is sexy. Unfortunately, since I'm built like a porpoise.

Qaera

2011-05-04, 12:25 PM

Katy Perry also did Ur So Gay... I really just don't like any of her music.

Miscast_Mage

2011-05-04, 12:27 PM

Since you kinda ninja-ed me and two a lot of people(you guys work fast!:smalleek:) posted since my post, i'll reply here:

So I went on a road trip with some straight friends to Montreal. Every night we went bar hopping and club hopping. The very first club, fairly small one of about 30 people the second floor of a bar and about to wrap up, had two gay couples dancing. No one batted an eyelash. We were outside The Village, Montreal's gay community. I spot more in other straight clubs too.

Later on I'd see same-sex couples just walking down the street holding hands. Again, we're not in The Village. No reaction from anybody.

D'awwww. This. This is what I consider victory for LGBTA+ rights.:smallbiggrin:

We obviously weren't successful in our quest, but I was shocked by the village. It was so normal. It wasn't that in your face flamboyant style I was accustomed to seeing from gay parades and the like. It was just normal, accepted. And my friends were surprisingly cool with everything. Gave this closeted guy a sigh of relief.

I definitely want to visit Montreal again! :smallbiggrin:

This is also a victory for me; that gay people can be gay without being a flaming stereotype. Fun fact: A person I used to know refused to believe I was gay on the basis that I wasn't an effeminate flaming girly-boy.:smallsigh: Or that a friend of mine who was slightly effeminate was straight, and I suspect she promptly started spreading rumours about him for whatever reason.:smallfurious:

Mina Kobold

2011-05-04, 12:39 PM

Well, that was really weird (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV1FrqwZyKw). There was a lot more slime and crotch-touching than I had anticipated. I'm not a big fan of people dancing around in just their underwear generally because it often seems exploitative and seedy, even though sometimes it's also Hawt. But that wasn't hawt, because she's so incredibly skinny it made me feel worried about her. Is she getting enough food? Where's her mammy, letting her dance around in her underwear with her ribs sticking out?

But it is a catchy song!

*Looks at skinniest picture I could find of Gaga*

Uhm, she is probably closer to a healthy range than me and I'm still in the "no danger, but you can count your ribs" zone. ^_^'

Also, stop posting so many alluring music links! I don't have time to watch them! :smallmad::smalltongue:

The Montreal story made me smile, though. Sounds much better than the stories I ususally hear about the general public. :smallsmile:

Lix Lorn

2011-05-04, 12:44 PM

Tatu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mGBaXPlri8) is one of the older ones I can think of. Can't decide if I like them in russian better though. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEf2Z58jRWo)
Oh you IDIOT.
Me, not you.
HOW could I forget This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaM7U5P9o8g)? It's my favourite song right now.

Coidzor

2011-05-04, 12:44 PM

Uhm, she is probably closer to a healthy range than me and I'm still in the "no danger, but you can count your ribs" zone. ^_^'

There's actually a way to be there without having a dangerously low level of body fat? :smallconfused: How about that.

Asta Kask

2011-05-04, 12:49 PM

Hey, once I was 6' and weighed 100 lbs. (or thereabouts). But I never claimed it was sexy or healthy.

Suggestion: Let the Sunshine In. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbicRTQaAk8)

Coidzor

2011-05-04, 12:55 PM

Also also: Uh... um... Something LGBT-related... Lady Gaga's Born This Way: Does it live up to her claims that it would be "the new gay anthem"?

I've mostly been trying to avoid it until Youtube stops trying to shove it down my throat by redirecting me to it constantly.

Anyone else been noticing something like that happening since the song came out?

Heh.
Well, the song it's meant to be replacing is I Will Survive. So...

Really? That makes me sad now. :smallfrown: I mean, when you have a community that is stereotyped due to having an apparently increased proportion interested in the creative arts and you have to co-opt a song from the perspective of a woman surviving domestic abuse as your anthem. :smallconfused:

everyone is beautiful, everyone is perfect,

Why does that resonate with you? We still have murderers and pedos as the current LCDs of non/anti-perfection.

:confused:

Is this... is this an Australian thing? :smallconfused:

Wait. You meant the other one? I'm not exactly sure how that would help him rather than just hurt him. :smallconfused:

Echoes

2011-05-04, 01:07 PM

I've mostly been trying to avoid it until Youtube stops trying to shove it down my throat by redirecting me to it constantly.

Anyone else been noticing something like that happening since the song came out?

Yes, a thousand times yes. It doesn't matter whether I'm looking up music, a Monty Python sketch, or an economics video-lecture. For the past few weeks the top related video has been one of her songs Every. Single. TIME. :smallfurious:

As someone who doesn't enjoy her music or weird dada-istic tendencies even a little, I object! *takes out a torch and pitchfork* We must storm the Bastille, show the youtube tyrants that our tastes shall not be influenced by their brainwashing back room deals!

Mina Kobold

2011-05-04, 01:09 PM

There's actually a way to be there without having a dangerously low level of body fat? :smallconfused: How about that.

Eeyup. Skinny teenagers are like that.

It would take about two kilograms for me to be underweight, so I must have some fat!...

I'm not helping my case, am I?

Miscast_Mage

2011-05-04, 01:16 PM

Also, stop posting so many alluring music links! I don't have time to watch them! :smallmad::smalltongue:

NEVAR!! Oh alright, two more links, and then that's it. For now. >:3c

Mark Weigle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puSB-NOHf68) was the one I forgot, and it's not about LGBT in particular, but Within Temptation's Stand my ground (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sCkAvh50Vs) seems rather appropriate.

@Echoes: Yeeeah, this is why I ignore the recommended/suggested/sponsered/etc videos. They rarely, if ever, even remotely relate to what I'm currently watching. They're about a step above spam-bots spouting "HOT GIRLS FREE HERE" and such non-sense... on a video about gay love. *ker-facepalm*

Coidzor

2011-05-04, 02:20 PM

Eeyup. Skinny teenagers are like that.

It would take about two kilograms for me to be underweight, so I must have some fat!...

I'm not helping my case, am I?

No, not really, I'm still quite skeptical about this claim. Especially since you made it about skinny teenagers with all the strange things happening to their bodies(plus, y'know, thinking about teenagers' bodies. ew. :smallyuk:) and the assumption that not being underweight means healthy and not underfat.

I suppose, but it still irritates me. It sort of reminds me of that teacher who was fired for taking her students to an art museum where there were nude statues.. :smallfurious:

:smallconfused: It shouldn't, those are completely different orders of magnitude.

It's the thing most people I know are going to think of though.

Especially for a LCD medium such as music videos where the general symbology is that it does mean X.

Kneenibble

2011-05-04, 02:29 PM

Mina Kobold

2011-05-04, 02:53 PM

No, not really, I'm still quite skeptical about this claim. Especially since you made it about skinny teenagers with all the strange things happening to their bodies(plus, y'know, thinking about teenagers' bodies. ew. :smallyuk:) and the assumption that not being underweight means healthy and not underfat.

I have not seen many shirtless people older than me, so skinny teenagers are my basis.

It doesn't? I was under the assumption that underweight meant that you where unhealthy and normal weight meant... Well, normal. ^_^'

My hip-waist ratio isn't in the danger zone either, though. ^_^

I wonder if it could have something to do with genetics or muscle-mass, think taht may explain why we disagree? :smallsmile:

KenderWizard

2011-05-04, 02:53 PM

Obviously there's a range of healthy sizes. I don't know if Lady Gaga is actually medically undernourished or just built like a pencil, but if I was her friend, I'd be telling her to take it easy and make sure she was getting three square meals. Separately, I don't find that stick-thin look attractive, especially not on women because hips and breasts are there for a reason, but I could understand that some people like skinny, same way some people like curvy, or pear shaped, or ripped, or whatever. In fact, my partner is at the low end of the healthy weight range, and 6'1", but Lady Gaga looks like she's about half his size, but not much shorter, in that video anyway. I've seen other videos and wasn't so struck by it, but then, she was wearing clothes or clothes-like structures at the time.

Also, I understand that semi- or completely naked isn't always about sex, and I have seen great pieces of art that show the human form in a non-sexual way. But the way she was dancing? I mean, there was a lot of birth imagery, but typically it's a pregnant women who gives birth. Since she clearly wasn't pregnant, that interpretation only goes so far.

And I second We Are The Champions, because it is kick ass! :smallcool:

Mystic Muse

2011-05-04, 03:20 PM

Nix Nihila

2011-05-04, 03:26 PM

:smallconfused: It shouldn't, those are completely different orders of magnitude.
Yes, definitely. I'm not claiming Asta Kask, or people like him are of that magnitude, but I can't help but think of that sort of thing when people sexualize things that (in my mind) are not sexual.

Also, I understand that semi- or completely naked isn't always about sex, and I have seen great pieces of art that show the human form in a non-sexual way. But the way she was dancing? I mean, there was a lot of birth imagery, but typically it's a pregnant women who gives birth. Since she clearly wasn't pregnant, that interpretation only goes so far.

I disagree. You can have all sorts of imagery about birth and creation without needing a pregnant person.

Also, Lady GaGa is a lot shorter than you'd think. She does wear insanely high heels a lot though.

Really, the main thing I like about Born This Way as a gay anthem, is that it's explicitly stated that it's about the LGBT community.

Mina Kobold

2011-05-04, 03:28 PM

Since we're on the subject of weight anyway, what's a healthy weight for somebody who's 6'2? I know I'm more underweight than I should be, I'm just wondering how much more.*

*I'm not concerned about looking thin or anything, I'm just too dang picky when it comes to food.

66 to 88 kilograms or 145.5 to 194 lbs, according to my research.

We're apparently same height so...

*6'2 high five!*

XD

Asta Kask

2011-05-04, 03:29 PM

Since we're on the subject of weight anyway, what's a healthy weight for somebody who's 6'2? I know I'm more underweight than I should be, I'm just wondering how much more.*

*I'm not concerned about looking thin or anything, I'm just too dang picky when it comes to food.

If you really want to gain weight, a good way is to exercise.

Mystic Muse

2011-05-04, 03:29 PM

66 to 88 kilograms or 145.5 to 194 lbs, according to my research.

We're apparently same height so...

*6'2 high five!*

XD

Oh. I'm technically within the healthy weight range then. I weigh a little under 150.

*High five*

If you really want to gain weight, a good way is to exercise.

Yes, but that requires Hard work and effort. I actually have been.

Asta Kask

2011-05-04, 04:04 PM

Do it my way then. Drink a gallon of soda every day for three years. Guaranteed to put blubber on those bones. Healthy? No. Effective? Yes.

Lissou

2011-05-04, 04:28 PM

About weight, count me in as someone who didn't realise you could be at a healthy weight and still have countable ribs!

It's called a "range" for a reason though. Bone structure, metabolism, etc, mean that two people of same height might be at opposite ends of that healthy range.
This being said, it also means that people can be at opposite ends of the heathy range and BOTH be unhealthy, because the thinner one of the two should be on the upper part of it and the heavier one should be on the lower part of it rather than the opposite.

To take the example of 66 to 88 kilograms, obviously if someone should be one and they're the other one, it can be a problem.

Exercise is indeed the best way to regulate your weight to what it should be (meaning you'll lose if you're overweight and gain if you're underweight) provided you eat healthy too of course. (Eat after exercising so that it can rebuild the muscles you've just been tearing, and make sure to get a bunch of protein in that meal).

I think it's a bit sad that nowadays people get scared when they're barely heavy, and don't worry about being too thin, as it can be a problem too. I hear the "healthy" BMI range has even been changed from 20-25 to 18-25 because too many people were under it. That seems silly.
18-20 used to be "underweight", the equivalent of the "overweight", and under 18 was "severely underweight" or the equivalent of obese but the other way around (as in it becomes medically bad for you).
There is no reason why 18-20 would suddenly be healthier than it used to be, but I heard that since models often fell into that range, it got changed so people couldn't say models weren't healthy. Pretty silly altogether.

The weird thing is that wikipedia still has the old numbers in the description:

a BMI of 20 to 25 may indicate optimal weight; a BMI lower than 20 suggests the person is underweight while a number above 25 may indicate the person is overweight; a person may have a BMI below 20 due to disease; a number above 30 suggests the person is obese (over 40, morbidly obese).

But then their chart shows up to 18.5 as normal. So they're using both ways at the same time. No wonder people get confused.

(BMI is obviously not the most accurate thing ever, but it's a common way to get a general idea when you're sedentary, which is why it's what I'm talking about here).

Since we're on the LGBT thread, I wonder if the weights compare with the general population, or if due to bullying, non acceptance, etc, there are more eating disorders for instance.

Miscast_Mage

2011-05-04, 04:56 PM

I'm 6'4 and 238 pounds... great, now I feel like a fatty-pants. >_>

Not even touching the nudity =\= sexuality topic because I will either
A) WHAAARGHBL repeatedly.
B)Flip the frickity frick out.
C)Have a goddess-damned rage-induced aneurysm.
D)Wish the world to be stabbed. With FIRE.
E)Some combination of the above.

Yes, the stupidity and narrowmindedness of some people when dealing with this topic spooshes me off that much.:smallmad: Nudity is not dirty or sexual in of itselfckpthgzl!! >_<

Oh, and some more for the anthem:

Christina Aguilera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAfyFTzZDMM)
Gossip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opWBRRCTDXg)
Bit of a stretch, but this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHkd-WvVWRE) could sort of qualify, and even then it's more "Take THAT, homophobes!" rather than "Gay is okay".

This was supposed to be more fleshed out, but I is tie-uuurd.

Frozen_Feet

2011-05-04, 05:20 PM

I'm 181 cm tall and weigh 70 kg, coming down to BMI of 21,4.

And I'm stick thin. Really. Skin and bones. I really wish my upper body would pick up some more muscle mass so I wouldn't look so wiry. I guess all that weight must be in my legs (somehow).

I make up for it by wearing thick and loose clothes, which make me look twice broader than I actually am. :smallbiggrin:

Lissou

2011-05-04, 05:40 PM

And I'm stick thin. Really. Skin and bones. I really wish my upper body would pick up some more muscle mass so I wouldn't look so wiry. I guess all that weight must be in my legs (somehow).

You could try push-ups and lifting weights. I was worried when I started that I would look all beefy or something, which I didn't want (especially being a woman, but you might not want that either despite being male), but that didn't happen at all and I feel much better being able to carry stuff around, instead of feeling weak and stuff. And it muscles your arms, shoulders and chest all at once.

It's super hard at the beginning but then it gets easy much faster than I expected it to. You can start against a wall, then switch to the floor from your knees, then full push ups. PM me if you want to talk about that so the thread doesn't get too derailed :)

Ashen Lilies

2011-05-04, 05:57 PM

175cm and barely more than 50kg... >.>

People have wondered how I'm capable of standing in the past.

No, I do not have any eating disorders, yes I exercise regularly, including lifting weights. I'm just built like a pole.

Frozen_Feet

2011-05-04, 06:30 PM

You could try push-ups and lifting weights.

"Could"? I already do that, have done for a long while. :smalltongue: It just happens to work very, very slowly on my body. :smallfrown:

cycoris

2011-05-04, 07:28 PM

Blisstake

2011-05-04, 07:31 PM

Sheesh, I'm starting to feel fat at a BMI of 20. :smalltongue:

golentan

2011-05-04, 07:58 PM

Okay. So, I have new news on the "golly gee, golentan may be intersex" front.

My doc and I had a talk a couple months back, and asked me to keep a journal of some physical and emotional traits. I appear to be synced with my friend's menstrual cycle three months running. Tangential note: I really want to jump someone's bones right now.

Got an appointment to try confirming it with a blood test in a couple more months. Not that I want to jump someone's bones, just that I may be intersex.

Note that I'm not going to. I have self respect, self control, and all that. It's just obnoxious and distracting. (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0285.html) Probably. (http://keychain.patternspider.net/archive/koc0287.html) On which note, it's too bad E wasn't interested, he would totally have gotten lucky tonight.

cycoris

2011-05-04, 08:27 PM

*hugs Golly* I'm sorry they weren't interested.

>.>
<.<
>.>

Can I join the "totally wants to jump someone right now" club? Even if my skinny, "underweight", bony ass may not survive the violence of said jumping? Not that I'm bitter...

rayne_dragon

2011-05-04, 08:33 PM

Aww... *hugs - gently, to avoid crushing bones*

Oddly enough, I could really... go for a big cuddle pile myself. Which is rather odd, since I'm usually the one who wants to jump someone. :smallconfused:

golentan

2011-05-04, 08:34 PM

*Smacks said bony implement*

Seems perfectly functional for that purpose to me. Go find yourself a... I think your preference is "nice girls" IIRC? And get on that. Or not, as you prefer.

Mystic Muse

2011-05-04, 08:36 PM

I'm fine with a hug pile.

Jumping somebody's bones? Not so much. Yes, I have good reasons for this.

golentan

2011-05-04, 08:41 PM

Cuddling sounds nice as well.

cycoris

2011-05-04, 08:49 PM

*Smacks said bony implement*

Seems perfectly functional for that purpose to me. Go find yourself a... I think your preference is "nice girls" IIRC? And get on that. Or not, as you prefer.

Meep! :smallredface:

It's generally quite a nice bum, if I may say so. :smalltongue: And I'm not particular when it comes to sex/gender/combination.

*joins in the cuddlepile*

Thufir

2011-05-04, 09:00 PM

And I, too, resent the implication that just because I'm tall and have very little fat and tiny tiny bones means I can't be sexy. :smallyuk:

Leaving aside the rubbish-ness of BMI, I disagree with the implied correlation between sexiness and being of a healthy weight. Isn't the stereotype that girls should all want to be skinny because it will make them attractive?

The actual implication is that because you're tall and have very little fat and tiny tiny bones you can't be healthy. Which is still insulting.

Got an appointment to try confirming it with a blood test in a couple more months. Not that I want to jump someone's bones, just that I may be intersex.

It'd be really weird if they could find that out from a blood test.
Also potentially frustrating if it took a while for the results to come through.
"Ooh... Well, [term of endearment], according to these results, you really want to jump someone's bones."
"I did yesterday when you took the blood. Now I'm not in the mood at all any more."
"...Damnit."

Can I join the "totally wants to jump someone right now" club? Even if my skinny, "underweight", bony ass may not survive the violence of said jumping? Not that I'm bitter...

Hey, your ass is fine. Probably. Having never seen it, I'm extrapolating from what I've seen of you in photos.

I get the wanting to jump someone thing from time to time. Should really consider maybe doing something about it sometime.

golentan

2011-05-04, 09:13 PM

Meep! :smallredface:

It's generally quite a nice bum, if I may say so. :smalltongue: And I'm not particular when it comes to sex/gender/combination.

*joins in the cuddlepile*

Agreed.

Thufir: Except I will never get to jump someone's bones, so the blood test would still be valid.

Not that I can blame people for not wanting to be jumped. I can recognize all the reasons I'd be an offputting mate. But still.

Coidzor

2011-05-04, 11:23 PM

I'm going to nominate We Are the Champions by Queen as the anthem of pan-queer nationality, especially since that was its actual purport. I'm a little surprised it hasn't come up yet.

& I'm 26 and my ribs are xylophony, so dammit, it's not unhealthy.

Also, it's Queen and therefore involves Mr. Mercury. Also, it's Queen.

I have not seen many shirtless people older than me, so skinny teenagers are my basis.

It doesn't? I was under the assumption that underweight meant that you where unhealthy and normal weight meant... Well, normal. ^_^'

My hip-waist ratio isn't in the danger zone either, though. ^_^

I wonder if it could have something to do with genetics or muscle-mass, think taht may explain why we disagree? :smallsmile:

Well, I was mostly just skeptical, but it does seem possible, though still a bit odd to get that without messing with % body fat.

Serpentine

2011-05-05, 12:05 AM

On that note, I'm pretty impressed by Kanye West's pro-LGBT stance. Seems pretty ballsy in an industry where many raps have tons of homophobia (hi, Eminem!).Why does the world keep trying to convince me to like that prat? :smallsigh: Alright, hit me: what's his LGBT stance/where has he expressed it?
Really? That makes me sad now. :smallfrown: I mean, when you have a community that is stereotyped due to having an apparently increased proportion interested in the creative arts and you have to co-opt a song from the perspective of a woman surviving domestic abuse as your anthem. :smallconfused:Domestic abuse? :smallconfused: Escaping a crappy relationship, sure, a jerk boyfriend, certainly, maybe even some emotional manipulation, but domestic abuse? :smallconfused:
And I expect it's a combination of the discoish beat and the catchy affirming chorus that did it.
I'm going to nominate We Are the Champions by Queen as the anthem of pan-queer nationality, especially since that was its actual purport. I'm a little surprised it hasn't come up yet.

& I'm 26 and my ribs are xylophony, so dammit, it's not unhealthy.Just cuz you're it, doesn't make that so :smallwink:
IIRC, a decent guide for a healthy weight on a dog is when you can feel the ribs, but not see them. Dunno whether that applies to people, too.

I've never really liked We Are The Champions... Haven't heard it for a while, though, maybe I'd change my mind.
Since we're on the subject of weight anyway, what's a healthy weight for somebody who's 6'2? I know I'm more underweight than I should be, I'm just wondering how much more.What's your HtW ratio?

Hrm. Do you think the ideal HtW ratio would switch for post-op/hormone transexuals? Or would they just have to accept that it isn't as reliable for them anymore?

Coidzor

2011-05-05, 12:09 AM

Domestic abuse? :smallconfused: Escaping a crappy relationship, sure, a jerk boyfriend, certainly, maybe even some emotional manipulation, but domestic abuse? :smallconfused:
And I expect it's a combination of the discoish beat and the catchy affirming chorus that did it.

Ah... I didn't know discoish beats had any kind of + in regards to becoming anthems. Interesting.

Maybe I've just been mishearing the lyrics since I first heard it as a six year old, but the bit about asking if the man thought she'd die always seemed a bit violent.

I really want to jump someone's bones right now.

I think this may just mean that we can all be pretty sure you're not asexual.

Serpentine

2011-05-05, 12:13 AM

Uh... Yeah, no. That was "did you think that I'd pine to death for you in your absence or something?", not "did you think you'd murder me?"

Coidzor

2011-05-05, 12:20 AM

Uh... Yeah, no. That was "did you think that I'd pine to death for you in your absence or something?", not "did you think you'd murder me?"

:smallsigh: Serves me right for never looking up the lyrics.

Guess I need a new getting revenge on one's attempted murderer song. :smallannoyed:

Even if my skinny, "underweight", bony ass may not survive the violence of said jumping? Not that I'm bitter...

Dated a girl bonier than you've ever seemed to be. As long as you don't have some kind of problem with your skeleton, should be fine.

Heliomance

2011-05-05, 04:07 AM

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6708/unled3f.jpg
Me. *bites lip*

Asta Kask

2011-05-05, 04:08 AM

I'd go on a date with you. (Based on appearance alone. Personality will influence things.)

Heliomance

2011-05-05, 04:10 AM

I think I understand why girls on the whole tend to be so concerned with their appearance. I'm not usually self-concious, but looking at that picture I can see so many things wrong with it >_<

Partysan

2011-05-05, 04:25 AM

Maybe you can, but the interesting thing is that I can see many many things right with it.

(That's a convoluted way of saying that you look really nice.)

Lix Lorn

2011-05-05, 04:27 AM

Tangential note: I really want to jump someone's bones right now.
Wait... sex-sense... tingling...

...ocean in the way...
...
:smallfrown:

Heliomance

2011-05-05, 04:35 AM

Maybe you can, but the interesting thing is that I can see many many things right with it.

(That's a convoluted way of saying that you look really nice.)

:smallredface:

Lix Lorn

2011-05-05, 05:31 AM

School stops me seeing it, but my doubts of it's win-ness are approximately equal to my doubts that...
I don't know where this metaphor is going. The doubts aren't there, is what I'm saying. :smallsmile:

Frozen_Feet

2011-05-05, 05:32 AM

According to the BMI I'm underweight (16.7), and every site that tells me this also has a list of "treatments" for my "condition". :smallsigh::smallannoyed:

And I, too, resent the implication that just because I'm tall and have very little fat and tiny tiny bones means I can't be sexy. :smallyuk:

I'm confused - what does BMI have to do with either tiny bones or looking sexy? (o.O) Bones of an adult human weigh something like 3 kg, so tallness not withstanding, they don't really sway BMI. Likewise, I thought the ideal for beauty currently is tall and thin. Nevermind that sexiness depends on way more factors than just bodystructure.

Leaving aside the rubbish-ness of BMI, I disagree with the implied correlation between sexiness and being of a healthy weight. Isn't the stereotype that girls should all want to be skinny because it will make them attractive?

Uh, there's a noticeable biological correlation between being of healthy weight and being sexy in eyes of others. As noted, cultural ideals can sway it to (sometimes absurd) directions, but it's a proven thing that health is sexually desireable. Being of biologically average bodytype is a sign of health, and thus beauty. Of course, healthy weight is just a portion of being and looking healthy, so it prolly isn't too influential in the long run, especially since many people (like me *cough*) wear clothes that very effectively obfuscate our actual body structure.

The actual implication is that because you're tall and have very little fat and tiny tiny bones you can't be healthy. Which is still insulting.

There is a demonstrable connection between being underweight and being either unhealthy or unfit. It doesn't hold true in all cases, but it seems like an odd thing to be insulted by.

Serpentine

2011-05-05, 05:40 AM

I support most of what you just said, but I find it hard to believe that all the bones in the human body would only weigh 3kg :smallconfused: Although, maybe dried out I guess...

Asta Kask

2011-05-05, 06:02 AM

Yeah, 3 kg seems awfully low. This (http://www.annecollins.com/healthy-weight-information.htm) site gives 12-15% weight (presumably that's healthy weight) so 8-10 kg.

Frozen_Feet

2011-05-05, 06:10 AM

Yes, it seems I was wrong. According to Wikipedia, in a living adult, skeleton comprises 30 to 40 percent of bodyweight, half of which is water. However, other sources give varying answer, such as 12% of bodyweight for females and 15% for males, and "about 18%" (http://www.essortment.com/structure-human-skeleton-61687.html). Maybe they discount water already.

Personally, I recall hearing that the human skeleton weighs only few kilos from my biology teacher. He talked specifically of how "big bones" don't actually weigh enough to explain overweight. It seems I might have remembered the actual numbers wrong, but the general point might still hold true - human skeletal system isn't heavy or variable enough to account for great differences in weight.

Delusion

2011-05-05, 06:13 AM

I think I understand why girls on the whole tend to be so concerned with their appearance. I'm not usually self-concious, but looking at that picture I can see so many things wrong with it >_<

Really? Because I don't see any of those things.

Thufir

2011-05-05, 06:33 AM

There is a demonstrable connection between being underweight and being either unhealthy or unfit. It doesn't hold true in all cases, but it seems like an odd thing to be insulted by.

Yes, but BMI is a rubbish guide to whether you're over- or underweight - since it doesn't take any account of build, it essentially implies that people are unhealthy because they are of unusual build. That's insulting.

Serpentine

2011-05-05, 06:35 AM

That doesn't change the fact that both underweight and overweight people are, generally speaking, less healthy than healthy-weight people.

Thufir

2011-05-05, 06:37 AM

That doesn't change the fact that both underweight and overweight people are, generally speaking, less healthy than healthy-weight people.

That doesn't change the fact that you're not necessarily overweight or underweight just because your BMI says you are.

Asta Kask

2011-05-05, 06:38 AM

Do we really need to include a W for Weightwatchers in the acronym? It's long enough as it is.

Anthem for FtM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpGVsiS7bBw)

:smallwink:

Heliomance

2011-05-05, 06:39 AM

Really? Because I don't see any of those things.
The main one is the beard shadow I couldn't get rid of >_>
There's also the fact that I know it's me, so I can't see it as anything other than a guy in girls' clothes.

Ashtagon

2011-05-05, 06:43 AM

The main one is the beard shadow I couldn't get rid of >_>

This too shall pass. Good makeup and lasers will do a real number on even the most manly of chin adornments.

Serpentine

2011-05-05, 06:45 AM

That doesn't change the fact that you're not necessarily overweight or underweight just because your BMI says you are.When have I ever said it does? In fact, I have repeatedly and vocally stated that the BMI is an inferior estimate of physical health to the Hip-to-Waist Ratio (which is itself inferior to other methods, I'm sure, but easier for the average person to do at home).
Maybe Cycoris' comment about how "just because (she's) tall and have very little fat and tiny tiny bones means (she) can't be sexy" (which, by the way, I think is pretty erroneous and certainly not reflected in popular culture) was directly related to BMI, but it's not necessarily so and Frozen Feet appears to have considered it seperate.

Asta Kask

2011-05-05, 07:01 AM

I think maybe we're committing a fallacy here. We're talking about being 'sexy' as if it's some absolute. Luckily human preferences are not so so focused. There's a spectrum of preferences in the various dimensions of body type, hair color, personality, etc. Most humans also have advanced filters for less attractive traits, especially if it's late at night (early in the morning) and you've had had a few beers.

So yes cycoris, you can still be sexy if you are thin and have a small skeleton - but not to everyone. And hopefully - mutatis mutandis - the same goes for me.

Serpentine

2011-05-05, 07:07 AM

You can (and scientists have) still come up with a general ideal bodyshape for aesthetics, health, and fertility based on population-wide preferences, though...

I am overweight. I have an increased risk of diabetes, heart disease, liver problems, kidney problems, possibly slightly lower fertility (I don't think I'm quite overweight enough for that to be a big problem...), and other health issues, and I am less attractive to the average man* than if I were healthy weight.
Some people are underweight. They have an increased risk of low blood pressure, anaemia, osteoperosis, weakened immune system, and fertility problems, and may be less attractive to the average person* than if they were a healthy weight.
It's biology *shrug*

*I don't think they did this test with homo/bisexuals... Wonder if it's different

Asta Kask

2011-05-05, 07:11 AM

If I take the average frequencies of the ten most popular songs in the world, take the average of that and then present it to the world, I guarantee you it will sound like crap.

Same here. Beware of population aggregates. They are not always your friend. And even if so, that's where our filtering systems cut in.

Serpentine

2011-05-05, 07:14 AM

Here, just read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waist%E2%80%93hip_ratio#Indicator_of_health) and follow the sources.
Outliers do not always render the data as a whole meaningless.

Lix Lorn

2011-05-05, 07:26 AM

There's also the fact that I know it's me, so I can't see it as anything other than a guy in girls' clothes.
Ugh, I have that problem. >_< No-one else ever seems to notice though.

cycoris

2011-05-05, 07:44 AM

Heliomance, you look nice. :smallsmile:

Frozen_Feet, the problem with underweight=unhealthy, normal=healthy, and overweight=unhealthy is that it's very often flat out not true. While BMI can be said to represent a trend in a very large group of people, even that has some pretty significant criticisms, including the fact that "overweight" people tend to live longer (source (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/26/health/26weight.html)). BMI also doesn't take into account any kind of variation in lifestyle or body type, many don't even have age as a variable. Especially when it comes to determining whether an individual is healthy or not, I'd say BMI is a very, very loose indicator at best. And some of what we've been taught is "healthy" or "unhealthy" may not be quite so much.

Now, as for a little rant, partially in response to Thufir:

I substituted "sexy" for "healthy" because both are applicable. I think we're led to believe that the two are interchangeable, things that look good are good, and vice versa. On top of this, our ideas of what's healthy and good are very often flawed, be it through ignorance or deliberate misinformation.

But there's also a very strong idea that anybody who isn't healthy (often as defined by society, regardless of whether/how it impacts that person's well-being) is not and cannot be sexy, sexual, or have sex.

For instance, as shown in the last few pages, anyone who is perceived to be or have been anorexic is seen as undesirable, reinforcing the idea that people have a duty or responsibility to adhere to some external standard of health and well-being, and that being unhealthy in any way is terrible not so much for the person whose health is being impacted, but for the people exposed to them.

And to tie it back in with what the thread's ostensibly about (you know, other than my butt, though thanks! :smallredface:)...

I think the whole "external standards of health and well-being" thing has a huge impact on how people who are trans are perceived, and the level/types of medical/psych care available, due to the prevalence of the idea that there is an external standard of health (which almost certainly includes being cis, or having the "right" combination or arrangement of parts), rather than focussing on the needs and feelings of each individual.

EDIT: To clarify, my comment about being tall and bony was both facetious and directly a comment on the BMI.

And to Serps (again!), why do people have a moral obligation to be healthy? Especially when it's "healthy as defined by current society/popular thought", but also just in general. Why do you think it's wrong or undesirable for someone to decide that rebellion or being comfortable or convenience/affordability or even simply not caring is more important to them than some facet of their health?

Serpentine

2011-05-05, 07:48 AM

But the fact is, health and aesthetics are demonstrably tied together on a biological level. Yes, an overweight person can be sexy. But they're not likely (likely) to be either as sexy (to most people) or as healthy as if they were a healthy weight. The target should be health, not the opinions of others, but they are generally likely to coincide.
And, again, I am not a fan of the BMI, and believe the HtW ratio to be much more reliable and useful for individuals.

"Be happy with yourself" and similar sentiments are nice, but are dangerous when they encourage people to ignore their own health out of some desire to "rebel" against "society's standards of beauty" or somesuch. Surely "loving your body" includes looking after it?

Glass Mouse

2011-05-05, 08:46 AM

Serpentine

2011-05-05, 08:53 AM

And to Serps (again!), why do people have a moral obligation to be healthy? Especially when it's "healthy as defined by current society/popular thought", but also just in general. Why do you think it's wrong or undesirable for someone to decide that rebellion or being comfortable or convenience/affordability or even simply not caring is more important to them than some facet of their health?Well, I could point to the social costs of paying for medical proceedures that wouldn't be necessary if people looked after themselves, and to the emotional costs on friends and family who have to live with unhealthy loved ones, and/or their avoidable deaths... But more to the point, I'm mostly talking about people giving this advice to others. If you would rather be unhealthy than spend money on luxuries like food (my mind, it is boggled), then that's your choice. But I will protest if you try to tell others that this is a good idea, or if you criticise others or suggest that they are shallow or judgemental or whatever for thinking it's a bad idea.
And it's not "healthy as defined by current society/popular thought" that I'm talking about, but "healthy as defined by current medical knowledge and, if in doubt, confirmed by a doctor".
If you really have to ask my why I think it's "wrong or undesirable" for someone to not care about their health... well, I don't think I can give you a satisfactory answer, as it is too self-evident to me for articulation.

If you are underweight, then you are probably unhealthy - or, rather, less healthy than if you were a healthy weight as defined by medical knowledge. This is a fact. Morality, and personal preferences, don't come into it.

Asta Kask

2011-05-05, 09:30 AM

Here, just read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waist%E2%80%93hip_ratio#Indicator_of_health) and follow the sources.
Outliers do not always render the data as a whole meaningless.

I agree, but a couple of points.

The wikipedia link states that this varies by culture. 0.7 is for Indo-European cultures - other cultures show preferences from 0.6 to 0.9.
Many of the studies I've seen - and I've read a few - are based on a flawed statistical assumption, namely that Likert scales provide numerical data, not ordinal data. That is to say, when you ask someone to rate attractivenes on, say, a Visual Analogue Scale (a 10-cm line; put a mark on the line), a '50' is twice as much as a '25'. The statistical methods used absolutely require this to be true.
The problem is that this has never been proven, and in fact there are good reasons not to believe it. Swedish professor of statistics Elisabeth Svensson has, in fact, demonstrated that it is not true for self-reported pain.
Evolutionary psychology for humans has been under heavy fire. The problem is that we have no close relatives, and we don't know much about the environment in which humans have evolved. For example, tools have been a large part of that environment. We have the remains of stone tools - but we know little about wooden tools like the ones contemporary hunter/gatherers use. The social environment is another important factor, and we believe that that has been changing very rapidly over the last 100 000 years. Humans are excellent at telling stories, but just because we can tell a compelling story about a given result (0.7 is optimal fertility, for instance) that does not mean that the story is true. We've discussed this before, I know you don't agree, but that's where I'm coming from.
Does this mean that there is no relationship between appearance, attractiveness and e.g. fertility? No, I'm not saying that. But I think the methodological problems are formidable and I don't think the studies have demonstrated this.

That was a long answer.

Lix Lorn

2011-05-05, 10:27 AM

(saw Helio)
(approves) ^_^

Heliomance

2011-05-05, 10:32 AM

Hehe, thanks everyone. I may get hold of some makeup at some point soon. Even if I do only ever dress up in private.

Asta Kask

2011-05-05, 10:33 AM

Just OOC - are you transvestite or transsexual?

You don't have to answer if you think this is illegitimate prying. I'm a nosy person.

Astrella

2011-05-05, 10:44 AM

The main one is the beard shadow I couldn't get rid of >_>
There's also the fact that I know it's me, so I can't see it as anything other than a guy in girls' clothes.

You look pretty.
I hadn't even noticed the beard shadow until the mentioned it.

*is jealous that you can pull it off so well.*

Kneenibble

2011-05-05, 10:54 AM

Heliomance --

Nice.
You look like a Spanish countess.

Coidzor

2011-05-05, 11:44 AM

And to Serps (again!), why do people have a moral obligation to be healthy? Especially when it's "healthy as defined by current society/popular thought", but also just in general. Why do you think it's wrong or undesirable for someone to decide that rebellion or being comfortable or convenience/affordability or even simply not caring is more important to them than some facet of their health?

Watching a loved one die because they're too set in their ways to stop themselves from getting diabetes and killing themselves slowly is rather unpleasant, for one thing.

*bites lip*

Don't chew on your lips, it's bad for them. :smalltongue:

For instance, as shown in the last few pages, anyone who is perceived to be or have been anorexic is seen as undesirable, reinforcing the idea that people have a duty or responsibility to adhere to some external standard of health and well-being, and that being unhealthy in any way is terrible not so much for the person whose health is being impacted, but for the people exposed to them.

Anorexia being unattractive taps into very basic things in regards to mate selection for the purpose of reproduction, something that humans have not shaken completely free of, after all. So it kinda predates the current culture you're railing against... which actually encourages anorexia anyway...

Anorexics seem to be kind of a bad example anyway because they're trying to adhere to an external standard of beauty that only anorexics hold to(seemingly misinterpreting various cues from the rest of society), rather than it being a true internal standard of beauty or anything like that.

Blisstake

2011-05-05, 11:57 AM

Yes, but BMI is a rubbish guide to whether you're over- or underweight - since it doesn't take any account of build, it essentially implies that people are unhealthy because they are of unusual build. That's insulting.

BMI is actually quite useful. If you really wanted to find out whether you were at an acceptable weight or not, you'd have to get your % body fat tested, how much weight is muscle, and account for any abnormalities with body shape. The thing is, most people don't have access to that. For most people, BMI is a relatively good indicator of whether you should lose or gain weight.

Just because it doesn't apply to every single person (which would be impossible for any system, I imagine), doesn't mean it's rubbish.

Mina Kobold

2011-05-05, 12:27 PM

There's also the fact that I know it's me, so I can't see it as anything other than a guy in girls' clothes.

I actually thought I had remembered wrong about your gender until I saw this, so you most certainly don't look like a guy in girls' clothing. :smallsmile:

Although that may mean you look less like a girl if Visual Key is anything to go by. :smalltongue:

You can (and scientists have) still come up with a general ideal bodyshape for aesthetics, health, and fertility based on population-wide preferences, though...

I am overweight. I have an increased risk of diabetes, heart disease, liver problems, kidney problems, possibly slightly lower fertility (I don't think I'm quite overweight enough for that to be a big problem...), and other health issues, and I am less attractive to the average man* than if I were healthy weight.
Some people are underweight. They have an increased risk of low blood pressure, anaemia, osteoperosis, weakened immune system, and fertility problems, and may be less attractive to the average person* than if they were a healthy weight.
It's biology *shrug*

*I don't think they did this test with homo/bisexuals... Wonder if it's different

Now I'm scared that I could have anaemia. :smalleek:

I actually eat quite a lot of food in general, though, so I sincerely hope I am not unhealthy. Eating more hurt my stomach. ._.

Frozen_Feet

2011-05-05, 12:32 PM

Yes, but BMI is a rubbish guide to whether you're over- or underweight - since it doesn't take any account of build, it essentially implies that people are unhealthy because they are of unusual build. That's insulting.

And exactly because it doesn't factor in bodystructure is why I find being insulted by BMI odd. It is an obvioulsy incomplete measurement, incapable of being accurate without outside data. Abnormalities in BMI and implications of such are reasons to look further into given issue. Reacting strongly to incomplete data feels excessive.

Maybe Cycoris' comment about how "just because (she's) tall and have very little fat and tiny tiny bones means (she) can't be sexy" (which, by the way, I think is pretty erroneous and certainly not reflected in popular culture) was directly related to BMI, but it's not necessarily so and Frozen Feet appears to have considered it seperate.

I consider them separate exactly because BMI doesn't account for bodystructure, and bodystructure is only part of being healthy and sexy. Having tiny bones, little fat and being tall don't even tell a thing about BMI. (I should know, I qualify for each item and have normal BMI.) Likewise, there's a strong disconnect with sexiness there, as even with abnormal BMI you could still have, say, really pretty face. (Or conversely, normal BMI but horrible skin problems.)

Frozen_Feet, the problem with underweight=unhealthy, normal=healthy, and overweight=unhealthy is that it's very often flat out not true.

I though I said as much. It's what lead to my original comment, in any case.

I substituted "sexy" for "healthy" because both are applicable. I think we're led to believe that the two are interchangeable, things that look good are good, and vice versa.

Everything seems to point out that this is natural mode of operation for human brain, not really something we're "led to". Rather, I believe cultural factors are more likely to lead us away from that, as witnessed by various very unhealthy qualities being perceived as "sexy" in the past.

But there's also a very strong idea that anybody who isn't healthy (often as defined by society, regardless of whether/how it impacts that person's well-being) is not and cannot be sexy, sexual, or have sex.

Which I believe is connected to instinctive fear of disease people have. Which correlates with the biological fact that sick people often are less capable and willing of sex. I do agree cultural factors often sway this to wrong directions, though.

Why do people have a moral obligation to be healthy? Especially when it's "healthy as defined by current society/popular thought", but also just in general. Why do you think it's wrong or undesirable for someone to decide that rebellion or being comfortable or convenience/affordability or even simply not caring is more important to them than some facet of their health?

Actively self-destructive people are a burden. Even outside moral quandaries, this is a practical problem. Someone who is really, demonstrably ill often causes problems, and in my mind it's perfectly reasonable to demand people to take care of those facets of health they just can. Absurd demands from part of society are another can of worms entirely.

Lissou

2011-05-05, 01:36 PM

Personally, I recall hearing that the human skeleton weighs only few kilos from my biology teacher. He talked specifically of how "big bones" don't actually weigh enough to explain overweight.

Maybe your teacher was saying that a big boned person would only realistically get about 3 additional kilos worth of bones, therefore it wasn't enough to justify a bigger weight difference than that?

I know BMI is flawed even used as a guideline, since it only uses height and weight. I guess using it in my post wasn't such a good idea, I assumed because it's a more commonly known index it would be easier to talk about it.

My point was that society idealise thinness to a point that I feel is unhealthy. I don't mean that every skinny person is unhealthy (they might be, they might not, better to check with a doctor since they have a higher chance to be than if they were of average weight). The fact that the "healthy" BMI range was lowered was just one example.

Really, I have a beef about it because of a friend I had who had an eating disorder. She was anorexic, and it was quite obvious. Well, she tried getting better, but as she started to gain a bit of weight to become healthier, she started getting comments about how she "was getting fat". When she was still underweight, and more than that, obviously underweight.
I'm sure you can imagine what kind of effect that had on someone who was already suffering for a skewed perception of her body and an eating disorder.
Basically, society was telling her "you look better when you're unhealthy. Don't try to get your health under control".

It's the main thing that makes me very passionate about the subject, but it's not the only one. I've known other similar things happening. People are used to considering the health problems that are more likely to occur with being overweight, but not those that are more likely to occur with being underweight. Because society has been showing thin people to us and saying "that's the norm", some people who are healthy make themselves unhealthy and get the approval of those around them. I hate that.

So my rant was really about that, and how it makes it hard for people who are underweight to get help getting healthier. A lot of people will brush off their problems, say they're lucky and it's a nice problem to have, or try and convince them to stay that way because they "look good".

I really wasn't commenting on the health of any particular person.

Oh, and @Frozen_feet, I think your teacher might have been a bit off-base with his argument. The bones themselves might not weigh much, but there needs to be flesh between them. Obviously, someone with a narrow waist, narrow hips, narrow shoulders, narrow chest cavity, etc, will need less pounds/kilos of flesh to "fill the frame" than someone who has a broad set of all of the above. So the weight difference isn't only about what the bones themselves weigh.

That's why the WHR is a better guide, because it takes into account the width of your hips (bones, so the width won't get below a certain point), and compares them to your waist (where the only bones are the spine, so the measure is a measure or your flesh).

It makes it more accurate both for underweight people (their hips don't get thinner past some point but their waist does, making their ratio "wrong") and for overweight people (they pack a lot of fat around the waist, which shouldn't be that wide since it doesn't have many bones at all, making their ratio "wrong")

Then again, the WHR isn't perfect either. If I remember correctly, one thing my friend struggled with when trying to get back to a healthy weight is that her WHR became "normal" (or even "overweight". I think it was "overweight" but I'm not sure) long before her health problems stopped.

KenderWizard

2011-05-05, 02:05 PM

I feel bad that I ever commented on Lady Gaga's weight!

I think you're morally obliged to try to keep yourself healthy if you've got people depending on you, whether financially, physically or emotionally. I think being willfully destructive is a pretty selfish behaviour, but a lot of destructive behaviours come from having real emotional or mental problems and the person needs help, which is completely understandable. But it's probably better for you to be happy at the weight you are than striving to hit a possibly poorly defined "perfect healthy weight", whether you're under or over the average, provided you're not so far in one direction that it causes health problems like fainting spells or trouble breathing or digestive problems.

I'm on the upper end of a healthy weight (although my weight fluctuates a lot, I'm probably close to the upper end of my cycle of weight gain-loss). Even when I'm at my slimmest and healthiest, I feel fat and ugly. I don't wear tank tops or ever show my legs. In a moment of mad self-confidence the other day I bought a pair of shorts, but I bought them a size too small by accident. I went back to exchange them, but the moment had passed so I just returned them and didn't replace them. I could stand to be fitter, but I'm not actually overweight, it's just that society tells me I don't look anything like I should, I'm a big wobbly fatty compared to the stick-thin ideal.

Then imagine I tie this back into feminism and from there into LGBT rights, probably something about if the society image of the "perfect" woman and the "perfect" man weren't super-skinny muscular tall tanned-but-Caucasian people, it would be easier for both cis- and trans- people to be accepted for looking like themselves. I'm going to go eat more chocolate to feel better about my weight. That works, right? :smalltongue:

The main one is the beard shadow I couldn't get rid of >_>
There's also the fact that I know it's me, so I can't see it as anything other than a guy in girls' clothes.

I genuinely thought you were an androgynous-looking girl and I was confused, because I remembered you as being an androgynous guy from stuff you'd said, and then I discounted my own memory as being wrong because you clearly were a girl!

Glass Mouse

2011-05-05, 02:43 PM

I'm on the upper end of a healthy weight (although my weight fluctuates a lot, I'm probably close to the upper end of my cycle of weight gain-loss). Even when I'm at my slimmest and healthiest, I feel fat and ugly. I don't wear tank tops or ever show my legs. In a moment of mad self-confidence the other day I bought a pair of shorts, but I bought them a size too small by accident. I went back to exchange them, but the moment had passed so I just returned them and didn't replace them. I could stand to be fitter, but I'm not actually overweight, it's just that society tells me I don't look anything like I should, I'm a big wobbly fatty compared to the stick-thin ideal.

:smallfrown:

Go buy them again. Go, go, go!

The beauty ideal has always been the one most difficult to attain - the one only, or primarily, the "upper class" could reach. Being fat, being pale, being ridiculously decorated, etc.
I guess we're kinda privileged to live in a society where we could all get close-ish to the beauty ideal without starving (or worse) from it, but the point still stands that if it was common, it wouldn't be the ideal.

To me, that's a comforting thought.

Maybe I'm weird, but I figure that I either look absolutely fine and thus have nothing to worry about... or I look every bit as hideous as I fear, in which case I'll help some poor insecure girls feel better about themselves :smallwink:

Asta Kask

2011-05-05, 02:46 PM

I genuinely thought you were an androgynous-looking girl and I was confused, because I remembered you as being an androgynous guy from stuff you'd said, and then I discounted my own memory as being wrong because you clearly were a girl!

Same here, actually.

Caustic Soda

2011-05-05, 03:03 PM

There's also the fact that I know it's me, so I can't see it as anything other than a guy in girls' clothes.

I don't know if you'll find it a good thing, but until this post I thought your picture made you appear to be FtM. Judging by some of the other posts, I'm not alone in that.

WarKitty

2011-05-05, 03:07 PM

My point was that society idealise thinness to a point that I feel is unhealthy. I don't mean that every skinny person is unhealthy (they might be, they might not, better to check with a doctor since they have a higher chance to be than if they were of average weight). The fact that the "healthy" BMI range was lowered was just one example.

Really, I have a beef about it because of a friend I had who had an eating disorder. She was anorexic, and it was quite obvious. Well, she tried getting better, but as she started to gain a bit of weight to become healthier, she started getting comments about how she "was getting fat". When she was still underweight, and more than that, obviously underweight.
I'm sure you can imagine what kind of effect that had on someone who was already suffering for a skewed perception of her body and an eating disorder.
Basically, society was telling her "you look better when you're unhealthy. Don't try to get your health under control".

Oh man, I have some stories there. I've had numerous people actively discourage me from working out because I'm the type of frame that gains weight from working out. And I've had people tell me how wonderful I looked when I got extremely sick and couldn't eat. For that matter, I've had people praise the fact that I have the discipline to not eat a lot - for the record, I have digestive issues that make eating regular meals practically impossible. So, I'm kind of skeptical about the whole "people prefer a healthy figure" thing.

golentan

2011-05-05, 03:16 PM

I will openly and honestly admit, I prefer my people tiny and undermuscled. I don't find tall people as attractive (and IIRC height is correlated with health until you hit a certain point), I don't like people who are "sturdily built" or muscular, etc. etc.

Then again, I also don't like people thin. Tiny and modestly plump (not obese, but a little overweight) is about my ideal. As always, there are numerous exceptions to this general rule of attraction in my mind. Come to think of it, I've never dated anyone who came close to my physical ideal. Ever.

So. Going to france first thing tomorrow and not taking my computer. Going to be out of touch for like a week and a half, so if you have any last insults to hurl my way just at the moment better get them out of your system in the next 12 hours or so.

Lix Lorn

2011-05-05, 03:20 PM

golentan

2011-05-05, 03:36 PM

I don't know that I'll get the chance, but if I find myself in britain I'll find a way to let you know.

Hrrm... I should have thought of this before, but given the number of regime changes since the sixteenth century, a declaration that someone was an enemy of all France and that if they entered the nation they were to be flayed, drawn, quartered, and burned would not still be valid even if they could identify such a person, right?

Nix Nihila

2011-05-05, 03:39 PM

Have fun! We'll miss you!

And no, don't worry, you're good.

@heliomance's photo Wow, very nice.

Mystic Muse

2011-05-05, 03:41 PM

(HUGS)
Miss you already! Pop over the channel and come hug me, kk? :smallfrown:

I would, but the monies. Has them, I do not.

Heliomance

2011-05-05, 08:06 PM

Just OOC - are you transvestite or transsexual?

You don't have to answer if you think this is illegitimate prying. I'm a nosy person.
Not sure, really. I'm confused about it myself. Mostly I think I just don't like being male.

You look pretty.
I hadn't even noticed the beard shadow until the mentioned it.

*is jealous that you can pull it off so well.*

Heliomance --

Nice.
You look like a Spanish countess.

I actually thought I had remembered wrong about your gender until I saw this, so you most certainly don't look like a guy in girls' clothing. :smallsmile:
.

@heliomance's photo Wow, very nice.

:smallredface::smallredface::smallredface:
Eheh... sorry to disappoint
*awkward happy shuffle*

Serpentine

2011-05-05, 11:22 PM

Just because it doesn't apply to every single person (which would be impossible for any system, I imagine), doesn't mean it's rubbish.But the HtW Ratio is better - as pointed out, still not perfect (which I doubt we can ever attain), but a better rough guide that can be done at home.

On a personal note, I think I have conditionally good body image. I should have a rockin' bod - perfect hourglass, good hips, big boobs - but, well, I don't, cuz I'm overweight :smallsigh: But someday!

Heliomance

2011-05-06, 02:56 AM

golentan

2011-05-06, 02:59 AM

Pros of shaving legs:
I don't like excess body hair
The feeling of freshly shaved hairless skin is amazing.

Cons of shaving legs:
Ow ow ow razor rash ow ow holy CRAP ow my legs ow that's really quite painful ow

Hey. The pretty ones have the same problems as the rest of us. Poor poor gorgeous Helio (I did a similar post a while back).

Astrella

2011-05-06, 03:29 AM

Pros of shaving legs:
I don't like excess body hair
The feeling of freshly shaved hairless skin is amazing.

Cons of shaving legs:
Ow ow ow razor rash ow ow holy CRAP ow my legs ow that's really quite painful ow

Hmm, shaved my legs for the first time ever last week. The actual shaving didn't hurt though, but itchy and achy the day afterwards. Shaven legs are pretty awesome though. Couldn't keep my hands of em the first days after. :smallsmile:

Heliomance

2011-05-06, 03:43 AM

Hey. The pretty ones have the same problems as the rest of us. Poor poor gorgeous Helio (I did a similar post a while back).

All this flattery's going to go to my head!
I'm really not all that gorgeous

golentan

2011-05-06, 03:50 AM

Perhaps not from some hypothetical objective standard of beauty, but as it's in the eye of the beholder I can assure you I find you very nice looking in the picture you posted.

Heliomance

2011-05-06, 04:21 AM

Why is it that whenever I read this thread lately I end up with this little smile stuck to my face that won't go away?

golentan

2011-05-06, 04:24 AM

Because we recognize and approve of your sexy-fineness and are willing to expound at length on the subject?

Man, if I had someone IRL to do that for me I'd never stop smiling. Or hugging them.

Lix Lorn

2011-05-06, 04:34 AM

Because we recognize and approve of your sexy-fineness and are willing to expound at length on the subject?

Man, if I had someone IRL to do that for me I'd never stop smiling. Or hugging them.
I repeat; make your way to England. :P

If there's hugs in the offing, I'll say ANYTHING. And you're not even asking for lies! Jackpot!

Blisstake

2011-05-06, 06:57 AM

But the HtW Ratio is better - as pointed out, still not perfect (which I doubt we can ever attain), but a better rough guide that can be done at home.

On a personal note, I think I have conditionally good body image. I should have a rockin' bod - perfect hourglass, good hips, big boobs - but, well, I don't, cuz I'm overweight :smallsigh: But someday!

BMI is a ratio of height to weight.

Serpentine

2011-05-06, 07:06 AM

HtW ratio is Hip to Waist.

Blisstake

2011-05-06, 07:16 AM

Oh, haha!

Does that really work better though? And how does one go about measuring their hip length?

Serpentine

2011-05-06, 07:49 AM

It's hip and waist circumferance. I linked to the wiki page on it earlier. It's a better indicator of body fat, health, fertility and (arguably :smalltongue:) aesthetics than the BMI.
As a rough thing, you measure your waist at the narrowest and the hips at the widest, although it seems it's a touch more complicated than that when done properly (i.e. you're meant to measure the hips... at the lower end of the pelvis or something like that). Anyway, then you divide the hips by the waist. Women should be around 0.7, men at around 0.9*.

*For visual aesthetic appeal, these values vary slightly between ethnicities. I'm not sure whether the ideal value for health varies as well.

Asta Kask

2011-05-06, 08:01 AM

On a personal note, I think I have conditionally good body image. I should have a rockin' bod - perfect hourglass, good hips, big boobs - but, well, I don't, cuz I'm overweight :smallsigh: But someday!

I would say that from a purely aesthetic perspective you don't need to lose any weight at all.

KenderWizard

2011-05-06, 08:18 AM

:smallfrown:

Go buy them again. Go, go, go!

Maybe... after exams... Right now I'm eating constantly, except when I'm asleep, which is a lot. So I'm getting a bit (). After exams I'll be going mapping, so I'll be out in the fresh air climbing over rocks, and hopefully look a bit more )(. But thanks. Even though you don't know what I look like in shorts (I presume!), it made me :smallsmile:

Serpentine

2011-05-06, 08:26 AM

I would say that from a purely aesthetic perspective you don't need to lose any weight at all.Thanks :smallsmile: The whole double chin thing is really getting to me lately... :/

Lix Lorn

2011-05-06, 08:30 AM

I think you look cute. :smallsmile:

SMEE

2011-05-06, 08:31 AM

I would say that from a purely aesthetic perspective you don't need to lose any weight at all.

I second that.
Pretty Serpy is very pretty as she is now. :smallsmile:

Serpentine

2011-05-06, 08:34 AM

...
I think I need to either leave this thread or go lez or something :smalltongue:
Thanks guys, and sorry :smallredface:

Thufir

2011-05-06, 08:49 AM

I think I need to either leave this thread or go lez or something :smalltongue:

Why? The guys in this thread find you attractive as well!
Well, presumably not the gay ones. But I think we have enough bisexuality to go around.

Serpentine

2011-05-06, 08:51 AM

Well sure, but it's hardly LGBT-related, is it? :smalltongue:

Thufir

2011-05-06, 08:54 AM

Well sure, but it's hardly LGBT-related, is it? :smalltongue:

We could ask the opinions of the FtMs?
:smalltongue:

Serpentine

2011-05-06, 08:55 AM

Yeah, well...

http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz348/CarefullyWovenPhotography/Okay.png

SMEE

2011-05-06, 09:34 AM

Anyway, good things regarding the LGBT community happened here in Brazil yesterday, and other good things happened that made me feel more confident about my body image.

I am even considering not getting breast implants anymore. :smallsmile:

Happy Smee is happy and will party like it is 1999.

Serpentine

2011-05-06, 09:35 AM

I saw that. Yay Brazil!
And yay bosom?

SMEE

2011-05-06, 09:37 AM

Still tiny, but not as tiny now.
But I am growing comfortable about them. :smallsmile:
Take one or two years more and I might get to A cups. :smallbiggrin:

Miscast_Mage

2011-05-06, 10:24 AM

@SMEE: Trade ya a pair of man-boobs for your flat chest, win-win. >_>

But no, seriously, be proud of your body! A flat chest is status symbol! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Crud7Iak7k) And a lot of people like petite, small breasted women, so be proud and show the world you're saying no to the baloon-chested ideal, and that you're happy the way you are!(also, less lower-back pain. Point.)

Also, because I didn't mention it earlier; Heliomance you're a cutie-pie and you know it, and serp Slurpintime, you could possibly take over a country with your buxxom beauty. Now go and spread the word; big is beautiful!:smallbiggrin:

I am and like heavy guys, and I'm not ashamed! No-one should be ashamed when it comes to body-type! Who's with me? Viva la revolution! :smallwink:

Now, what happened in Brazil, exactly? :3c

Serpentine

2011-05-06, 10:37 AM

I think Smee might be a bit too long and leggy to pull of petite very well :smalltongue:
And yus! Phear mah bosom of DOOM! >=3

SMEE

2011-05-06, 11:04 AM

Serpy is quite right on that account.
Being 6'1'' with very long legs definitely play against me when trying to look petite. :smalltongue:

Serpentine

2011-05-06, 11:05 AM

But long-and-leggy has its charms too :smallwink:

Coidzor

2011-05-06, 01:51 PM

It's being long and leggy but otherwise having petite *ahem* proportions that leads to the difficulty of clothes, IIRC, but, then, well, women's clothing sort of makes that a given for anyone and everyone that isn't some kind of wizard.

Derjuin

2011-05-06, 01:56 PM

A flat chest is status symbol! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Crud7Iak7k)

I love you for that. :biggrin:

Asta Kask

2011-05-06, 02:00 PM

Anyway, good things regarding the LGBT community happened here in Brazil yesterday, and other good things happened that made me feel more confident about my body image.

Can we get more details, or should I resort to Googling?

Knaight

2011-05-06, 02:46 PM

Can we get more details, or should I resort to Googling?

The short version is that civil unions are now available for homosexuals in Brazil, where it used to be up to local judges. Better yet, a grand total of 0 people voted against it.

Lissou

2011-05-06, 04:57 PM

About leg hairs... I know it's a cultural thing how you remove them, but I actually don't know many people in France who shave them (as in, with a razor). Waxing, using these electric machines that pull out the hairs and using a cream that makes it fall are the common ones I know.

I haven't removed my hairs for like five years now, but from what I remember...
Waxing looks best and lasts longest, but it hurts and is most expensive if you have someone do it for you. If you do it yourself, in my case the result was wax all over my hairs and hairs sticking to my legs but not getting removed.
The electric hair remover was my fav. It hurts and takes a while but it lasts as long as waxing since the hairs are removed, and you can touch it up whenever you want.

Both of these I had to do once a week, personally. The electric thingie took me two hours to get all my legs, but your mileage may vary.

The cream thing was my favourite painless one. A pain to do it everyday though, and it smelled terrible, and it irritated my skin a lot.
Used an electric razor too. Not as close a result, still had to do it every day and still irritated my skin a lot.

Never tried a hand razor. I was way too worried of cutting myself accidentally, and as I said they're not very common in France as far as I know. So I couldn't tell you how well they compare.

My favourite method is not touching them at all though :smallbiggrin:

Astrella

2011-05-06, 05:26 PM

I used a hand-razor. It's a very nice smooth close shave, and not that irritating / hurting. Not much risk for cuts either, unless you're moving the razor sideways for some reason.

Coidzor

2011-05-06, 08:12 PM

....What do Frenchmen use for shaving if you can't find handrazors in France?

Lissou

2011-05-06, 09:08 PM

....What do Frenchmen use for shaving if you can't find handrazors in France?

You can find them, I'm just saying it's not as common for women to use them, as far as I know. The ones I saw in stores in North America were different for women, although I guess that might just be marketing. But I thought maybe shaving your face required something different since the skin is more sensitive there. Or something.

At any rate, all the Frenchmen I've seen shave were using electric razors. But I know the safety kind is available too, I've seen them in stores before and seen commercials for them and stuff.

Vaynor

2011-05-06, 09:22 PM

Astrella

2011-05-06, 09:27 PM

You can find them, I'm just saying it's not as common for women to use them, as far as I know. The ones I saw in stores in North America were different for women, although I guess that might just be marketing. But I thought maybe shaving your face required something different since the skin is more sensitive there. Or something.

At any rate, all the Frenchmen I've seen shave were using electric razors. But I know the safety kind is available too, I've seen them in stores before and seen commercials for them and stuff.

I just used my face-razor. Not sure if there's really a difference with ladies razor blades, but I don't have those and don't feel confident enough to go buy em. :smalltongue: Don't think there's that much of a difference though.

Coidzor

2011-05-06, 09:32 PM

Lissou: As far as I've ever known, it's mostly just marketing, especially for the middle of the road and lower.

Relevant:

http://www.viruscomix.com/page542.html

:smallconfused: I thought the entire point of her art was that she was flawed and wasn't sexy.

...My mind has been blown and I now no longer know what context to interpret Frida Kahlo's work.

Oh well, I was always more of a Toulouse-Latrec guy.

Vaynor

2011-05-06, 09:37 PM

:smallconfused: I thought the entire point of her art was that she was flawed and wasn't sexy.

...My mind has been blown and I now no longer know what context to interpret Frida Kahlo's work.

Oh well, I was always more of a Toulouse-Latrec guy.

It says "Maybe." :smalltongue:

Also, not "sexy," but "sexier than." There's a key difference.

Nerocite

2011-05-06, 09:53 PM

Relevant:

http://www.viruscomix.com/page542.html

That made my day.

Coidzor

2011-05-06, 09:56 PM

It says "Maybe." :smalltongue:

Also, not "sexy," but "sexier than." There's a key difference.

Head... still hurts. x.x Existential Art Crises are weird.

rayne_dragon

2011-05-06, 11:20 PM

Head... still hurts. x.x Existential Art Crises are weird.

Wheneve existential and art are mentioned in the same sentance, "weird" seems to like to creep in there too. Strange, isn't it? :smallwink:

Coidzor

2011-05-06, 11:29 PM

Wheneve existential and art are mentioned in the same sentance, "weird" seems to like to creep in there too. Strange, isn't it? :smallwink:

Thankfully I managed to repress all memories of that part of art history class. :smallamused:

Delusion

2011-05-07, 07:12 AM

I am starting to be a bit happier with my appearance. Not in the way that I like what I look like (I present as a femine man at mo) but I think that I will be able to pass in the futher. Everyone keeps saying that I will most likely look very pretty, which is a nice :D

Miscast_Mage

2011-05-07, 08:50 AM

Relevant:

http://www.viruscomix.com/page542.html
I d'awwwed at that, especially the second last panel with the older couple.

@Delusion: That's the spirit! I'm sure you'll be a... wait, I can't remember if you were FtM or MtF. Um... uh... I sowwies!:smalleek:
http://i.imgur.com/TNlXR.jpg
I... I think I need to start writing down a cheat sheet for this thread.

Asta Kask

2011-05-07, 09:36 AM

I believe Delusion is a woman who has the body of a man. Temporarily. Since she is from Finland, she also loves tango, accordion music, Koskenkorva and won't let anyone touch her puukko. And she always carries that. It's a finnish rape-alarm, but more... proactive.

Coidzor

2011-05-07, 09:43 AM

Gender symbol generally is the second letter in the equation round these parts, IIRC..

unosarta

2011-05-07, 10:02 AM

At the LGBT support group at my school on Thursday, I heard a kind of sad story. One of the members of the group is FtM trans, and he was telling us about how he was binding (in the girl's bathroom, since the school administration isn't really that understanding about trans issues). A girl walked in while this guy was in the middle of checking his binding.

This is the conversation as far as I can remember:

Girl: WHAT ARE YOU DOING?
Guy: I am adjusting my binding.
Girl: What is that?
Guy: You know, breast binding. Where you bind your boobs so that they aren't in the way... and stuff.
Girl: Why would you want to do that?
Guy: Well, I am transgender.
Girl: ... what is that?
Guy: You know, where you are born in one sex, and feel a different way on the inside.
Girl: Why would you feel like that?
Guy: Well, I don't know, I just do.
Girl: No you don't. I mean, no girl would honestly want to be a guy.
Guy: Well... I do.
Girl: Uh, whatever.
Guy: *goes back to adjusting binding*
Girl: Wait, if you are a guy, why are you even in here?
Guy: Well, the school administration doesn't allow me to use the men's bathroom.
Girl: Well you obviously don't belong here.
Guy: *leaves*

I mean, yes, she was asking questions and not insulting said guy directly, but I was like "WUT."

And then, one of my other friends who was there was like, "yeah, my boyfriends does that all the time. And he uses words like 'gaytard'" (he wrote that on his friend's arm, and then didn't understand why she didn't want to talk to him) "even though I have told him several times that I am bisexual." He is in a band that plays in an LGBT youth hangout north of the twin cities all the time, so he even gets exposure. And I mean, it is getting better (hopefully), but like, a lot of people had stories like that. One girl left her denomination because she felt scared of the reaction they would have. :smallfrown::smallfrown:

Coidzor

2011-05-07, 10:04 AM

I like how she's still dating him despite the deliberate trolling though. That's fairly amusing. The rest not so much.

I mean, yes, she was asking questions and not insulting said guy directly, but I was like "WUT."

:smallconfused: At what part? The fact that a girl would talk to another person in the girl's bathroom for doing something strange and new? That a human being would show the spark of curiosity to ask questions? The expected negative reaction to having a transperson using X restroom?

Seems pretty typical of human ignorance and curiosity... to the point where I'd expect you'd expect it by now.

Come to think of it, having one's breasts out for whatever reason in a public restroom at all does seem like it's asking for an emotionally draining experience, either from the commentary/confrontations or the looks of shame and/or pity from onlookers. :/

unosarta

2011-05-07, 10:06 AM

I like how she's still dating him despite the deliberate trolling though. That's fairly amusing. The rest not so much.

Well, he seems like a nice guy otherwise. I know people who are perfectly kind people who use words like that. Which doesn't make it any better, but it does make it a little more understandable.

Coidzor

2011-05-07, 10:10 AM

Well, he seems like a nice guy otherwise. I know people who are perfectly kind people who use words like that. Which doesn't make it any better, but it does make it a little more understandable.

Not really. Why would a bisexual want to stay with someone who is homophobic?

Asta Kask

2011-05-07, 10:22 AM

And I mean, it is getting better (hopefully), but like, a lot of people had stories like that. One girl left her denomination because she felt scared of the reaction they would have. :smallfrown::smallfrown:

I know what you mean. If I had a child, and that child told me xe was transgender I would be very concerned. Not because it's unnatural or weird or anything like that, but because it's a difficult life.

The only thing I can really do is say "These people are not speaking for me" and offer hugs. Boycott stores that are hostile to LGBTA (very rare in Sweden, fortunately and do what I can on election day...

*hugs*

Serpentine

2011-05-07, 10:29 AM

Coidzor

2011-05-07, 10:36 AM

Astrella

2011-05-07, 02:39 PM

KenderWizard

2011-05-07, 02:54 PM

What I find most puzzling is the sudden switch from "you couldn't possibly be a girl and feel like a boy" to "if you feel like a boy then you are and shouldn't be in the girls' toilets". They're both quite... if not insulting, then somewhat antagonistic, but from completely opposite ends. So maybe it averages out to acceptable? :smallconfused:

I was thinking the same thing! Really, if it had been phrased in a less antagonistic way, the entire episode would have been an uplifting journey of one girl's short, but important, struggle towards understanding of trans issues. Starting out with confusion and questions, and ending deciding it would be more fair for the guy to use the men's bathrooms.

Hello,

just wanted to drop by and say that I'm probably gonna meet with the social counsellor at my university this week to talk about things and help me find a support group for my gender issues. :smallsmile:

Support is good! I hope you find a group that you feel welcome and safe in!

unosarta

2011-05-07, 03:37 PM

^: apparently the girl phrased it in a sort of antagonistic way (actually, one of the people who works for Out4Good, the LGBT program in my school district, said the exact same thing you said), and it seemed like she wasn't trying to understand this guy's position. :/

Not really. Why would a bisexual want to stay with someone who is homophobic?
He isn't actively homophobic. He doesn't have problems with gay people (although he is still trying to understand trans people), he just uses words like that in the context of meaning "bad" or "dumb." Which is, in and of itself, stupid and hardly understanding, but if I were to not be friends with anyone who said gay in that context, I would have to stop being friends with half of the friends I have who aren't LGBT.

I know what you mean. If I had a child, and that child told me xe was transgender I would be very concerned. Not because it's unnatural or weird or anything like that, but because it's a difficult life.

The only thing I can really do is say "These people are not speaking for me" and offer hugs. Boycott stores that are hostile to LGBTA (very rare in Sweden, fortunately and do what I can on election day...

*hugs*

This girl in specific who left her denomination was Bi, if I recall correctly. But yeah, it was really sad. She had a really cool story of talking to a little girl she knew who went to said denomination whose parents were a little bit... unsavory. The girl came up to her and asked her if she was dating a girl (she was on facebook), and she said, "well... yes, I am."

The little girl said "cool!" and hugged her. It was really sweet, according to this person, and it really seemed like it. But the atmosphere in the place was really toxic, so she felt like she had to leave.

Lissou

2011-05-07, 04:14 PM

if I were to not be friends with anyone who said gay in that context, I would have to stop being friends with half of the friends I have who aren't LGBT.

I have a friend(ish. We're not that close) who is gay and uses the word "gay" to mean "stupid" all the time. I told him it bugs me, but he shrugged and said what he meant was obvious, that language evolves and that I was stuck up.

In some way I kinda get it (dumb is an insult now, but we don't take it as insulting mute people even though it mean mute. Same with lame and handicapped people) but on the other hand gay people are still trying to get accepted and it doesn't help to associate them with something negative that's completely unrelated.

Astrella

2011-05-07, 04:17 PM

I have a friend(ish. We're not that close) who is gay and uses the word "gay" to mean "stupid" all the time. I told him it bugs me, but he shrugged and said what he meant was obvious, that language evolves and that I was stuck up.

Eh, he can talk about language evolving all he wants, but if you said it bugs you and asked him not to do it, him not stopping is just disrespectful.

Mina Kobold

2011-05-07, 04:57 PM

All this tudh meanings of gay is me a tad tallth, but just remember to always be gay and jolly and everything will end up naught but silly.

Silly olde English aside, the reason dumb implies lack of intelligence is because it is used as "Like a mute" which implies that one is not dumb but still acts as if one were.

Thus the insult of gay would mean:

a: To be acting like Pinkie Pie despite being Fluttershy.

or

b: To act like one is attracted to the opposite sex despite being heterosexual.

And thus I can conclude that some people really have a problem with hyperactive ponies. Those poor souls.

Dire Moose

2011-05-07, 05:29 PM

The girl came up to her and asked her if she was dating a girl (she was on facebook), and she said, "well... yes, I am."

The little girl said "cool!" and hugged her. It was really sweet, according to this person, and it really seemed like it.

D'awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

rayne_dragon

2011-05-08, 12:41 AM

He isn't actively homophobic. He doesn't have problems with gay people (although he is still trying to understand trans people), he just uses words like that in the context of meaning "bad" or "dumb." Which is, in and of itself, stupid and hardly understanding, but if I were to not be friends with anyone who said gay in that context, I would have to stop being friends with half of the friends I have who aren't LGBT.

I know people like this too. They aren't homophobic at all, but they do tend to misuse words in a way that sometimes (okay, most of the time) makes you want to slap them. Funny thing was one of the people I knew who was most prolific in his misuse of the term had two bisexual roommates.

I don't actually know if that's funny.

Strange... this whole thing has me wondering what Oscar Wilde would think of society these days.

Serpentine

2011-05-08, 12:43 AM

"You're all a bunch of limp-wristed pansies. Harden the **** up".

...except 3 times as long and 100 times as classy.

rayne_dragon

2011-05-08, 01:06 AM

"...Harden the **** up".

:smallamused:
Was the double-entendre intentional? I'm rather amused by the idea of Oscar Wilde walking into a modern gay bar and saying that to some random guy.

SaintRidley

2011-05-08, 01:11 AM

Strange... this whole thing has me wondering what Oscar Wilde would think of society these days.

To branch off Serp's idea...

You all carry on like the most delightfully empty-headed young dandies, never sparing a thought for thought's sake; most unfortunately, however, you do so with far less of the simple and beautiful ignorance of our fine friend but with all the brutish expressivity of the lowliest sort of man, one who peddles for money what he could refine into beauty.

I feel like that one goes round about things enough to approach him, anyway.

Serpentine

2011-05-08, 01:15 AM

:smallamused:
Was the double-entendre intentional?Works in retrospect, but it's a fairly common phrase 'round these parts. Dunno about elsewhere.

Coidzor

2011-05-08, 02:41 AM

Eh, he can talk about language evolving all he wants, but if you said it bugs you and asked him not to do it, him not stopping is just disrespectful.

Well, of course, he dismissed her as being stuck up. Being disrespectful was the entirety of his response to her.

but if I were to not be friends with anyone who said gay in that context, I would have to stop being friends with half of the friends I have who aren't LGBT.

Then why is this kind of story shocking if your friends act the way they do? :smallconfused:

I have a friend(ish. We're not that close) who is gay and uses the word "gay" to mean "stupid" all the time. I told him it bugs me, but he shrugged and said what he meant was obvious, that language evolves and that I was stuck up.

Well, no, he's definitely not a friend if he dismisses good points and you by saying you're stuck up. And really doesn't put his best foot forward with that stance anyway. It's the kind of bad habit that is not good for first impressions. Or last ones...

SMEE

2011-05-08, 08:06 AM

I posted quite a while ago about coming out of the closet, and then being doubted by everyone I know. I was advised to explain to my friends why that's not okay, and it turns out they had no idea what they were talking about and were willing to get educated. I was happy to oblige them in this by bringing them along to a workshop, and they are accepting me and others now. Thanks to all who helped me. :)

New mail. :smallsmile:

Coidzor

2011-05-08, 09:44 AM

Glad that your explanations worked and everything seems to be working out well for you on this front. :smallsmile: Hope the skies stay clear for you.

unosarta

2011-05-08, 10:22 AM

Then why is this kind of story shocking if your friends act the way they do? :smallconfused:

Because her boyfriend is doing it, and because she has explained to him that she is bisexual, and he still doesn't seem to be getting it. All of the friends I have who use the term (there aren't altogether that many of them) I am not out to.

Qaera

2011-05-08, 10:30 AM

So at the GSA meeting, we looked at a lot of statistics mostly regarding homeless LGBT youth and about 25% of kids that come out to their parents are told they must leave home. :smalleek:
Chances of me coming out in high school dropping.

unosarta

2011-05-08, 10:40 AM

Not everyone has that happen to them. My parents are super accepting, and they are completely fine with my sexuality.

I think it depends a lot on your parents themselves, and their views on sexuality/gender/what have you. Just because 25% of high school students who come out to their parents get kicked out (which totally doesn't surprise me; I know several people who would be kicked out if they came out to their parents, and one guy who actually was) doesn't necessarily mean you will be.

Qaera

2011-05-08, 10:54 AM

Welp, both of my parents are hyper-religious for different reasons so I would probably be in that percentile. Like, when I joined the GSA my parents just assumed I was the straight part and interested in the anti-bullying bit, which I am, but also it's fun to hang out with birds of a feather and learn about LGBT stuff and such. They didn't even consider the alternative so... Yeah.

Asta Kask

2011-05-08, 12:55 PM

Has anybody read Carmilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmilla), about a lesbian vampire and her prey? Is it any good?

rayne_dragon

2011-05-08, 01:09 PM

Has anybody read Carmilla (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmilla), about a lesbian vampire and her prey? Is it any good?

I haven't read it myself, but I do recall hearing lots of good things about it. Which probably doesn't help much, but now that you've mentioned it I kinda want to read it myself.

Welp, both of my parents are hyper-religious for different reasons so I would probably be in that percentile. Like, when I joined the GSA my parents just assumed I was the straight part and interested in the anti-bullying bit, which I am, but also it's fun to hang out with birds of a feather and learn about LGBT stuff and such. They didn't even consider the alternative so... Yeah.

That does sound like there's some possibility of that in your case, but by no means does that mean that their reaction would be garunteed to be kicking you out. High School isn't exactly the best time to come out anyways; most people have some growing up still to do, you're dependant on other people a lot more, you're not old enough to go to any of the fun places, etc. Now I'm not saying that I think people should never come out in high school, just that you're rather limited in options until later in life, anyways.

Works in retrospect, but it's a fairly common phrase 'round these parts. Dunno about elsewhere.

Yeah, fairly common phrase here too, it just startled me by how it sounded given the context.

Qaera

2011-05-08, 01:14 PM

That does sound like there's some possibility of that in your case, but by no means does that mean that their reaction would be garunteed to be kicking you out. High School isn't exactly the best time to come out anyways; most people have some growing up still to do, you're dependant on other people a lot more, you're not old enough to go to any of the fun places, etc. Now I'm not saying that I think people should never come out in high school, just that you're rather limited in options until later in life, anyways.

True, GMH, thanks. :smallcool:

Coidzor

2011-05-08, 05:02 PM

Because her boyfriend is doing it, and because she has explained to him that she is bisexual, and he still doesn't seem to be getting it. All of the friends I have who use the term (there aren't altogether that many of them) I am not out to.

Still, the point is that these are the people who are high enough quality for you to befriend despite this handicap of them being casually homophobic. To an outside observer such as myself, listening to your description of the people in the place where you live would seem to suggest that the general atmosphere of where you live is not exactly a positive one vis a vis LGBT.

unosarta

2011-05-08, 05:19 PM

Still, the point is that these are the people who are high enough quality for you to befriend despite this handicap of them being casually homophobic. To an outside observer such as myself, listening to your description of the people in the place where you live would seem to suggest that the general atmosphere of where you live is not exactly a positive one vis a vis LGBT.

It depends. I don't think any of the schools in my area are really "perfect" in that sense, and my school is certainly the best. However, most of the time I hear comments like that, they are actually not even at my school (at least when the source of such a comment is a friend- I hear it commonly at school, although not altogether that much), but at the location where I fence. I think the largest there is that there isn't a lot of exposure; most of the kids who are at my club go to schools in the suburbs, and although I definitely don't want to stereotype every suburb in my state, they definitely tend to be a lot more homophobic/racist/bigoted in general.

Peanut Gallery

2011-05-08, 10:42 PM

I can't even imagine parents that would disown their kid like that. I mean, my parents weren't at all supportive of gay rights at the beginning but I think that's because they didn't know any better. After dealing with me, I like to think they've gotten better. Or they're just too polite to say anything negative within my hearing.

But, geeze, I mean I could try to murder them and they'd still come visit me in jail to tell me they still loved me and that they were trying to get me out so I could take anger management classes or something. Their love is just so unconditional.

Serpentine

2011-05-08, 11:13 PM

My mum is very religious, and thinks that according to her religion homosexuality is a sin, but isn't very certain about that and believes that hating them for it and stuff like that is a much bigger sin. Last time I asked she was of the "bisexuals are just greedy" pursuasion, unfortunately...
After my sister and her ex broke up, she had a bit of a thing with another girl. Her ex, apparently believing our mum would be outraged, called her up and dobbed her in for having a lesbian relationship.
Mum's response was to call my sister and tell her that if something's going on in her life, she can tell her.

So yeah. I think my mum might be a bit disappointed if one of us was gay, but that's about it.

edit: Something that kinda tickled my fancy :smallbiggrin:

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h287/serpentine16/reptoidgay.gif

celtois

2011-05-09, 01:55 AM

Astrella

2011-05-09, 02:45 PM

Hello,

just wanted to drop by and say that I'm probably gonna meet with the social counsellor at my university this week to talk about things and help me find a support group for my gender issues. :smallsmile:

Urgh, so I'm being a coward and didn't call to make an appointment today. :smallfrown: Oh well, I still have tomorrow, hopefully I can bring up the courage then.

Coidzor

2011-05-09, 05:30 PM

Urgh, so I'm being a coward and didn't call to make an appointment today. :smallfrown: Oh well, I still have tomorrow, hopefully I can bring up the courage then.

DO EET! Can you.

Astrella

2011-05-09, 05:32 PM

DO EET! Can you. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOPsfaQRcbk)

Can't see it in my country. :smallannoyed:

Dire Moose

2011-05-09, 05:32 PM

Coidzor

2011-05-09, 05:35 PM

Can't see it in my country. :smallannoyed:

Eh. Secondary and just supplying of a reminder of the context of the statement anyway. Superfluous really, I wouldn't worry about it.

celtois: That sounds rather... interesting.

rayne_dragon

2011-05-09, 09:20 PM

Hey I though this might tickle your fancy. Here in Albertan high-schools we have a mandatory course called CALM (Career and Life Management) you have to take it to graduate.

Part of its curriculum is informing students about GLBT individuals, promoting their rights and encouraging the students not to be bigoted against member of the GLBT community.

It's little wonder I've never seen a gay kid at my school being bullied. :smallsmile: It would interesting to see if this trend holds across the rest of urban Alberta, country schools I'm pretty sure don't have CALM.

Hmm... geneally this sort of thing makes me want to hide so far in my closet that I'm cuddled up behind my pink pajamas. It makes me think of "sensitivity training" - which does more to promote discrimination than avert it.

But if it's actually working, that's rather awesome and it has my approval. It's also nice to hear that schools there have a class that actually tries to teach something that will be universally useful to people regardless of job. I can't recall learning much that I use at work from highschool.

Coidzor

2011-05-09, 09:47 PM

It makes me think of "sensitivity training" - which does more to promote discrimination than avert it. Yeah, such things did always seem like they would more build resentment for taking up time one could be using to make money or pursue one's own ends(this in the absence of even the most minor of sinister reasons) rather than actually cause one to think and evaluate one's values.

But if it's actually working, that's rather awesome and it has my approval. It's also nice to hear that schools there have a class that actually tries to teach something that will be universally useful to people regardless of job. I can't recall learning much that I use at work from highschool.

I'm not sure that it would really qualify as actually teaching tolerance or anything as metaphysically useful as all that. It just seems like either the general culture of the city just being that much more tolerant on this particular axis such that this class could come into existence in the first place or that such courses are successful at discouraging overt acts of discrimination would be much more probable.

Mostly though, it just makes me think on the implications of having to pass it in order to graduate. :smallconfused:

celtois

2011-05-09, 11:20 PM

My guess is Coid is probably right about its effect. I know it doesn't prevent homophobia, however it probably discourages people from acting overtly against homosexual individuals .

I my view is the whole course is kinda ridiculous, it's tolerance training/ health class/ basic economics all rolled into one class.

Passing it is pretty easy, I skipped the entire last unit and still got a good mark.

Anyway I hadn't really considered it before, but I hadn't really noticed any sort of bullying of the smattering of open LGBT individuals I know. So I figured the two might be related.

(People still like to use gay as a catch all insult and curse word which bothers me to no end but I guess you can't have everything.)

golentan

2011-05-10, 06:14 AM

Less out of touch than I thought I'd be, but still on a borrowed smart phone so apologies for any weirdness. Saw the cutest gay couple here today. Also my sister started pestering me about boys the other day: what I like and what I've done. Why can I never lie to a direct question about my sex life? Why?

Asta Kask

2011-05-10, 06:58 AM

Just say "I don't want to talk about it." That's not a lie, is it?

golentan

2011-05-10, 07:13 AM

I did. She kept pestering me.

Ashen Lilies

2011-05-10, 08:08 AM

So I had this really... interesting conversation today, with someone who I always thought was rather intelligent about these sorts of things. Even if she did accuse me of being homophobic that one time - in front of a bunch of people I was 'out' to. Yeah, that was funny. Anyway.

Friend: So this weekend I was hanging out with this gay Singaporean guy... by the way, I mean he was like, 'gay' gay, but anyway-
Me: ... 'Gay' gay? :smallconfused:
Friend: As in, he's actually... done stuff with other guys.
Me: So why is that 'gay' gay, instead of just 'gay'?
Friend: Well I mean, look at [excessively flamboyant guy whose sexuality I am actually unsure of but I think he's most likely bisexual]. I mean, he's gay, but he doesn't actually like guys.
Me: O_o So... He's not gay?
Friend: Of course he's gay! Have you even listened to him speak!?
Me: o_O But you just said he didn't like guys!
Friend: Of course he doesn't. We don't have any actually gay guys in our school.
Me: ... If you say so. ._.

Another gem (from the same conversation):
Friend: What? Please. It has to be more than that [10%]. Most girls are bisexual, after all.
Me: O_O Really? I hadn't noticed?
Friend: Sure. Girls make out with each other all the time.
Me: [knowing her too well for my own good] ... Drunken shenanigans don't count.
Friend: Oh.