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Jacklu
2011-03-28, 12:04 AM
Welcome, one and all.

This is a thread where we Playgrounders, and LGBTAitp in particular, gather to discuss, share our experiences, give general advice and support one another in such matters as arise relating to, well, the world beyond heteronormaitivity.

Everyone is welcome. Let's try to keep from seeming otherwise.
Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, plz)
It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "Right." (And really, most discussions probably should avoid moralizing too much anyway)
Please refrain from posting sexually explicit content. (Keep it friendly as well as board safe :smallsmile:)

If you would rather be anonymous when asking for advice or sharing your story or views, you can use the address below to send a message to be posted in this thread via proxy.

http://anonmail.smeenet.org/

Keep in mind that content which contain strong language may be filtered (Plus, y'know, the forum-filters), and content that violates the forum rules won't be posted at all.

Here are the links for the last few threads, where much of use or interest may be found:
LGBT people in the playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62225)

LGBT people in the playground - part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86066)

LGBTitp - part III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5663140#post5663140)

LGBTitp 4: We are a family? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129235)

LGBTitp - Part Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143424)

LGBTitp - Part Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147832)

LGBTitp - Part Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157312)

LGBTitp - Part Eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167395)

LGBTitp - Part Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172747)

LGBTitp - Part Ten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177253)

LGBTitp - Part Eleven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181683)

LGBTitp - Part Twelve (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10335967#)

*modified from the original.

golentan
2011-03-28, 12:19 AM
Huh buh guh wuh? I thought we still had a little while on the old one. Ah, that new thread smell, before it starts smelling of Lix (whatever it is you do to the threads is a good smell, but distinctive).

Last thread comments: Yeah, as soon as I realized how he was writing I stopped reading the article. I could rant for so long on some of this, but it would probably be my final post on the forum.

So yeah... Gay parakeets. They keep making out while I'm in the room. I totally need to post some pictures at some point.

TechnoScrabble
2011-03-28, 12:35 AM
I had a pair of gay iguanas once.
The kept tongue kissing in front of guests.
This was when I was seven, and my mother was loosely Christian/Buddhist at the time, so it was a bit embarrassing.
Five years later, though, I was showing them off because of it.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-28, 03:34 AM
I had a pair of gay iguanas once.
The kept tongue kissing in front of guests.
This was when I was seven, and my mother was loosely Christian/Buddhist at the time, so it was a bit embarrassing.
Five years later, though, I was showing them off because of it.
Good on them. :smallbiggrin:

cycoris
2011-03-28, 04:26 AM
I had a pair of gay iguanas once.
The kept tongue kissing in front of guests.
This was when I was seven, and my mother was loosely Christian/Buddhist at the time, so it was a bit embarrassing.
Five years later, though, I was showing them off because of it.

Okay, that's awesome. Now I want gay iguanas.

...my mother has lived a fairly sheltered life overseas, and apparently does not get the whole rainbows=LGBTQ pride stuff. Lucky me. :smallbiggrin:

TechnoScrabble
2011-03-28, 05:10 AM
Seriously, I put a female in the room I had them in, and they each mated with her once and then ignored her forever. The just sit there, next to each other.

All the time.

Licking each other...

unosarta
2011-03-28, 06:31 AM
Seriously, I put a female in the room I had them in, and they each mated with her once and then ignored her forever. The just sit there, next to each other.

All the time.

Licking each other...
That is awesome. Seriously. They sound super cute. :3
I love scaly animals. So adorable!

Miscast_Mage
2011-03-28, 08:36 AM
Seriously, I put a female in the room I had them in, and they each mated with her once and then ignored her forever. The just sit there, next to each other.

All the time.

Licking each other...

Lucky. The only thing that one of my dogs will mate with is my furry blanket, never mind the fact that he's been neutered for about four years now.:smallannoyed: Still, I think he just really loves that blanket; sometimes I see him kneading it like a cat or grabbing a clump of it in his mouth like a baby with a soother and falling asleep, so there's cuteness there.

Blisstake
2011-03-28, 11:35 AM
That is awesome. Seriously. They sound super cute. :3

Licking is cute? Maybe if they were dogs...

*involuntary shudder*

I even like iguanas.

Keveak
2011-03-28, 11:46 AM
Licking is cute? Maybe if they were dogs...

*involuntary shudder*

I even like iguanas.

What he, she, it, Kobold or other pronoun said.

But I have a solution!


Cute animals showing that prejudices are stupid!
http://cheezdailysquee.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/f10391c7-2c6b-4a43-b7cc-9604147b4208.jpg

Mystic Muse
2011-03-28, 11:48 AM
Cute animals showing that prejudices are stupid!
http://cheezdailysquee.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/f10391c7-2c6b-4a43-b7cc-9604147b4208.jpg

*Explosion*

What was that noise? *goes to check*

Ah. The cute-o-meter exploded.

Tamburlaine
2011-03-28, 12:27 PM
Hello new thread!

You know, I never even realised iguanas kissed each other at all...
To wikipedia for the researching!

Danne
2011-03-28, 01:08 PM
...My life is devoid of snuggling gay animals. This makes me sad. :smallfrown:

Dire Moose
2011-03-28, 03:15 PM
What he, she, it, Kobold or other pronoun said.

But I have a solution!


Cute animals showing that prejudices are stupid!
http://cheezdailysquee.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/f10391c7-2c6b-4a43-b7cc-9604147b4208.jpg

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK! I wanna give them a hug!

Miscast_Mage
2011-03-28, 03:23 PM
Here's some cute gay animals snuggling (http://media.photobucket.com/image/gay+snuggle+/tchildress81/pictures%2520for%2520mom/DSC00205.jpg), and some plain ol' cute gay snuggling (http://i.imgur.com/NeFpf.jpg).

Oh, and I just came across this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcYYs0eaiEE) Goddess damnit... now I need to spend the next hour or so looking at cute guys snuggling to recover.:smallannoyed:

Keveak
2011-03-28, 03:49 PM
Here's some cute gay animals snuggling (http://media.photobucket.com/image/gay+snuggle+/tchildress81/pictures%2520for%2520mom/DSC00205.jpg), and some plain ol' cute gay snuggling (http://i.imgur.com/NeFpf.jpg).

Oh, and I just came across this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcYYs0eaiEE) Goddess damnit... now I need to spend the next hour or so looking at cute guys snuggling to recover.:smallannoyed:

D'aww.

That is indeed silly, some people these days.

I tried taking your advice but google couldn't find any pictures of cute guys or girls snuggling. T_T

But it did find a lot of cats. ^_^

Google can read your mind! It's the conspiracy, man! The clues are everywhere!

Blisstake
2011-03-28, 03:58 PM
Here's some cute gay animals snuggling (http://media.photobucket.com/image/gay+snuggle+/tchildress81/pictures%2520for%2520mom/DSC00205.jpg), and some plain ol' cute gay snuggling (http://i.imgur.com/NeFpf.jpg).

Oh, and I just came across this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcYYs0eaiEE) Goddess damnit... now I need to spend the next hour or so looking at cute guys snuggling to recover.:smallannoyed:

Wow, never thought I'd find myself defending Glee.

Keveak
2011-03-28, 04:05 PM
Wow, never thought I'd find myself defending Glee.

Is it really that bad?

Honestly, I rarely watch the television we do get so I have no idea what Glee's like. ^_^'

Gilmore Girls looks pretty fun, though. ^_^

golentan
2011-03-28, 04:20 PM
Right at the end there: "I have friends who are X:" Has that sentence ever, in any variation ended well? I'm partly glad that was cut off, and partly wondering what she would have said to justify herself with it. :smallconfused:

That said, that was a huge D'aww moment in the clip they showed. I haven't really watched glee, but... D'aww...

Blisstake
2011-03-28, 04:48 PM
Is it really that bad?

Honestly, I rarely watch the television we do get so I have no idea what Glee's like. ^_^'

Gilmore Girls looks pretty fun, though. ^_^

It's not just not my thing. I could go on for a while with all the reasons I don't like it, but I'd rather not spoil anyone else's enjoyment of it.

I have far less rational reasons for disliking Gilmore Girls. I just... want to punch her FACE.

unosarta
2011-03-28, 05:27 PM
It's not just not my thing. I could go on for a while with all the reasons I don't like it, but I'd rather not spoil anyone else's enjoyment of it.

I have far less rational reasons for disliking Gilmore Girls. I just... want to punch her FACE.

Which one's face? :smallconfused:

Blisstake
2011-03-28, 05:32 PM
I saw an advertisement, and there was a close up of one of them. Athough they all look punchable. I've never seen the show, so I can't give names :smalltongue:

Like I said, no rational reasons.

rayne_dragon
2011-03-28, 07:38 PM
Right at the end there: "I have friends who are X:" Has that sentence ever, in any variation ended well? I'm partly glad that was cut off, and partly wondering what she would have said to justify herself with it. :smallconfused:


I would suggest "I have friends who are awesome" as one of the few acceptable ways to end said sentence.


What he, she, it, Kobold or other pronoun said.

But I have a solution!


Cute animals showing that prejudices are stupid!
http://cheezdailysquee.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/f10391c7-2c6b-4a43-b7cc-9604147b4208.jpg

That cat looks a bit peckish to me... :smallwink:

Coidzor
2011-03-28, 07:50 PM
I would suggest "I have friends who are awesome" as one of the few acceptable ways to end said sentence.

Well, "I have friends who are looking for a new roommate," seems like it would be topical to a discussion of that nature. And "I have friends who just went to visit that country," where country X just came up in conversation, wouldn't be amiss.

Plenty of ways that exist to have that begin a sentence. Not many ways to actually excuse one's rude behavior though, and yet still people always persist in self-delusions that they're within decorum by including them despite having already broken it.

Katana_Geldar
2011-03-28, 09:55 PM
What advice would you give to someone who has a friend that sees themselves as transexual? (Is that the word, he wants to be but can't do anything about it). I thought I was a fairly tolerant person, but this is a new way of looking at my friend.

I'm just a little confused.

rayne_dragon
2011-03-28, 10:06 PM
What advice would you give to someone who has a friend that sees themselves as transexual? (Is that the word, he wants to be but can't do anything about it). I thought I was a fairly tolerant person, but this is a new way of looking at my friend.

I'm just a little confused.

That depends on exactly what you're looking for... the way you've worded your question seems kind of vague to me. Are you having difficulty accepting their trans nature? Or are you just looking into how you can be supportive of them?

In general though, I find the best way to deal with any such situation is to treat the person with acceptance and empathy. Trying to look at things from their point of view can often be a helpful way of gleaning some idea of how to deal with the situation.

Danne
2011-03-28, 10:27 PM
Here's some cute gay animals snuggling (http://media.photobucket.com/image/gay+snuggle+/tchildress81/pictures%2520for%2520mom/DSC00205.jpg), and some plain ol' cute gay snuggling (http://i.imgur.com/NeFpf.jpg).

The plain ol' cute gay snuggling link is broken! :smallfrown:


Oh, and I just came across this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcYYs0eaiEE) Goddess damnit... now I need to spend the next hour or so looking at cute guys snuggling to recover.:smallannoyed:

On the bright side, look at the number of dislikes for that video! Hope for humanity!


What advice would you give to someone who has a friend that sees themselves as transexual? (Is that the word, he wants to be but can't do anything about it). I thought I was a fairly tolerant person, but this is a new way of looking at my friend.

I'm just a little confused.

Stop. Take a deep breath. Sleep on it. Feel better? (Sleep helps everything, it really does.)

My advice is twofold. One, educate yourself about transgenderism. Folks here can give you some places to start, I'm sure, including via PM (I'm open if you want to talk - FtM here). Find a book in a genre you love that stars a trans character. Go to a trans support website and read testimonials. I've found that exposure to something that makes me uncomfortable really helps me to understand that thing and make me more comfortable with it.

Two, write up a list of reasons why your friend is awesome. (I'm assuming there are lots of reasons, elsewise why would you be friends?) Your friend is your friend, yes? That's really all that's important.

Hope that helped. :smallsmile:

Nix Nihila
2011-03-28, 10:37 PM
What advice would you give to someone who has a friend that sees themselves as transexual? (Is that the word, he wants to be but can't do anything about it). I thought I was a fairly tolerant person, but this is a new way of looking at my friend.

I'm just a little confused.

Just remember that they're still the same person.

It also might help to research transsexuality, since there are a lot of common beliefs about transsexuals that don't have any basis in facts. Looking at the trans community on youtube might help, or you could research things other places online, or read books on gender psychology and transsexuality.

I wouldn't feel too bad about finding it somewhat difficult to picture your friend as the gender they identify with, since presumably you've known them for a while as their birth sex. However, it's important to be supportive, and to let your friend know that you're 100% behind whatever decisions they feel they need to make (assuming you are).

EDIT: yeah, pretty much what Danne said.

Katana_Geldar
2011-03-28, 10:43 PM
That depends on exactly what you're looking for... the way you've worded your question seems kind of vague to me. Are you having difficulty accepting their trans nature? Or are you just looking into how you can be supportive of them?

In general though, I find the best way to deal with any such situation is to treat the person with acceptance and empathy. Trying to look at things from their point of view can often be a helpful way of gleaning some idea of how to deal with the situation.

I'm trying to deal with the fact that this guy's trans nature is a new thing I know about him that has redefined my definition of that person for myself. I know it sounds rather selfish, and I am supportive of him trying to be true to himself. I know it feels rather selfish of me to feel this way, as it's probably a big thing for him as well, but I can't help feeling a little confused.

Coidzor
2011-03-28, 10:52 PM
What advice would you give to someone who has a friend that sees themselves as transexual? (Is that the word, he wants to be but can't do anything about it). I thought I was a fairly tolerant person, but this is a new way of looking at my friend.

I'm just a little confused.

Hmm... Sounds like a good idea would be to work out what your friend's position is in regards to pronouns and the public.

Though, a better idea might be to figure out what has you confused in particular.

The way people use language varies, for whatever reason, but, IIRC, transgender is more of an umbrella term that covers more than just someone who just wants to transition and transsexual is more specific to MtF and FtM. Sometimes with the connotation of already being in the transition process, sometimes not, though probably for the best to figure out what language your friend is going with.

Dire Moose
2011-03-28, 10:54 PM
I'm not saying this is easy. In fact, it's very hard to cope with what seems to be a wrenching shift in someone's identity.

The key here, though, is to remember one thing. This is still the same person you've known all along. She has always been this way, even if you did not know it. Your friend did not suddenly become trans, she was trans all along and simply did not realize it until recently (or, if she had realized it before, has not said anything to you about it until now).

I understand that gender is one of the most important aspects of a person's identity and a perceived change in gender does appear to be a radical identity change. In the case of transsexuals, however, their gender is still the same as when they were born, but had previously been hidden behind a false identity.

If there's one thing to keep in mind, it is this: Your friend is not a different person than before.

Katana_Geldar
2011-03-28, 10:57 PM
The scenario I am running through my head is what I would I would think if my friend does decide to change gender, as I feel rather wierd about that idea. It seems strange, and I don't like the fact that it does feel like that.

I wouldn't feel less about my friend as a person. That's why I am confused.

And I am being non-specfic to protect my friend, as it was told to me in a rather private moment and I've been grappling with it since. I don't want to betray a confidence.

Tono
2011-03-28, 11:11 PM
Well, that at least is good news to your friend. Honestly it seems to me that you just have pre-existing notions that Trans people are just different. You seem confused that this person who you seem to have known for a while is something you thought was bizarre weird or different in some way. Finding some way to just... I don't want to say accept it, but get used to the idea that they are not different may be the best bet.

Some body may have better advice, as I am horrible about it, but what ever.

Knaight
2011-03-28, 11:24 PM
The scenario I am running through my head is what I would I would think if my friend does decide to change gender, as I feel rather wierd about that idea. It seems strange, and I don't like the fact that it does feel like that.
It is outside your personal experience, so an emotional response is expected. You realize that the weirdness that was your emotional response isn't a good thing, and because of that you can expect full well for it to fade. Weirdness can survive a lot of things, familiarity has a tendency not to be one of them.

For full disclosure, the same thing happened to be a few years back. A friend I had known as a female decided that she was male. It was a bit unexpected, but the mild surprise wore off quite quickly, and now it seems extremely odd that I ever thought of him as female. It ended up being the equivalent of "huh, I never thought this person would get this hair cut" transitioning to "the old hair cut just seems odd now", although with even less importance, and any change in our relationship was just the two of us aging and a result of having more mutual friends.

Katana_Geldar
2011-03-28, 11:27 PM
Thanks for the advice, it does seem to me just getting used to the idea than anything else.

Coidzor
2011-03-28, 11:33 PM
Yeah, nothing really for it but time and interaction.

cycoris
2011-03-29, 12:40 AM
The way people use language varies, for whatever reason, but, IIRC, transgender is more of an umbrella term that covers more than just someone who just wants to transition and transsexual is more specific to MtF and FtM. Sometimes with the connotation of already being in the transition process, sometimes not, though probably for the best to figure out what language your friend is going with.

This may be helpful:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lghi5oXJT71qciiulo1_1280.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId =AKIAJ6IHWSU3BX3X7X3Q&Expires=1301463467&Signature=bRO9lgXS5OXm6OxnApNLZTtjH1w%3D
:smallbiggrin:

Serpentine
2011-03-29, 12:53 AM
Bleh. I still don't get why "individual who crosses over or challenges their society's traditional gender roles and/or expressions" needs some special term. Seems to me like it's defeating the purpose of the whole "challenge" bit.

golentan
2011-03-29, 01:40 AM
I'm feeling all goop-ey right now.

Serpentine
2011-03-29, 01:56 AM
In a... good... way?

golentan
2011-03-29, 02:06 AM
Indubitably. Goop-ey is a good feeling. It seems to involve my muscles unknotting enough for me to realize I've been sore for at least half my life, and I start to feel something other than pure disdain and revulsion for myself. I'm not fused solid: hence goop.

And I am feeling goop-ey and self indulgent as a result of some LGBT related things I did today (no, not that). Which, in turn, has me mulling whether to pursue further LGBT related activities tomorrow. Which may include that. Probably not, but we shall see.

So thank you LGBT world. You have made me happier than years of therapy and expensive prescriptions. At least temporarily.

Keveak
2011-03-29, 03:10 PM
I'd say trying to be straight is where your problem lies.

Why even do that? It's not going to make you feel better and nobody notices if you don't show interest in girls. :smallsmile:


In fact, nobody noticed that I am asexual despite me never indicating I thought sex was anything but gross. >_>


Also, you slept with people? Eeeeww! Grown-ups* are icky! >_<

*Own age irrelevant. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Can't give you relationship advice, though, for obvious reasons.

Blisstake
2011-03-29, 03:38 PM
Can't you tell him you're gay without saying you have a crush on him? But you can't assume what people's reactions will be if you come out until you try. I think it's a better option than holding it in, and suffering through all those talks.

Lyesmith
2011-03-29, 04:29 PM
He may have noticed? If you're attracted to him as strongly as it seems, even subconcious stuff might give you away.

I find myself using more open body language with the guy I've fallen for, but try and reign it in on account of his tending to shift away ever so slightly.

Caustic Soda
2011-03-29, 05:01 PM
@The Transgender Pic cycoris posted: What does "Hijra" mean in a transgender context? :smallconfused: I've only seen it used referring to the pilgrimage to Mecca, which seems unrelated to gender issues.

Coidzor
2011-03-29, 05:08 PM
@The Transgender Pic cycoris posted: What does "Hijra" mean in a transgender context? :smallconfused: I've only seen it used referring to the pilgrimage to Mecca, which seems unrelated to gender issues.

Wikipedia (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Hijra_%28South_Asia%29)helps disambiguate it a bit.

It's basically just a regional term with differing cultural connotations and expectations of behavior... So sort of a variant spin on MtF.


I'm a firmly closeted gay. For a whole bunch of reasons I was pretty sure that I'd never come out and just live a ho-hum life marrying some nice girl and "loving" as best I could.

Yeah. This. No matter whatever else you do or take away from this, Don't. Do. This.

Kneenibble
2011-03-29, 05:14 PM
They're a socially & religiously sanctioned form of transexualism, to be more specific.

I met an old hijra in Chennai. She spoke no English, I spoke no Tamil or Hindi, but we still chilled out at the same coconut lady. They seemed to have a bond with each other.

Possibly took me for something like a hijra too, because at the time I had very long golden hair and was skinny and girly-looking. Mistaken by a girl at first by most Indians unless they heard me speak.

golentan
2011-03-29, 05:56 PM
Kirion: My only advice is "to thy own self be true." And seriously, never settle like you described. It is so very uncool to put someone through that, and a million times worse if they care enough about you to marry you when you're just exploiting them for selfish reasons.

Danne
2011-03-29, 06:11 PM
Seconding Coidzor here. As you seem to have figured out, given that you haven't dated an girls recently, it's really not fair to whatever woman gets stuck with you. (I mean that in the most respectful sense, because I'm sure you're a swell guy, but still, if you don't love her, she's stuck, and she might not even know it. How horrible! :smalleek:)

As to actual advice... Would you like a hug? Here, have one anyway. *hugs*

Your friend... he's not really your friend if he doesn't know the true you, is he? He's friends with a mask. A façade. It's not fair to him and it's not fair to you, it really isn't. I'm not going to say, "You need to tell him," because I'm not you and I can't make that decision for you. But it's tearing you up inside that you're living a lie.

Not knowing your friend, I can't say what his reaction will be. You seem to think he might know already. That could mean he's a-okay with it! Or, coming out to him could force him to accept something that he's been trying to ignore, and that could make him uncomfortable. But if he's really your friend -- your friend, and not your mask's -- then it won't matter. He might need some time and some space to digest things, but you won't lose him if he's true. If he can't handle it, well... It'll be hard, and it'll hurt like hell at first, and perhaps still twinge a bit even after the pain's gone, but you'll be a better person for it, in the end. Five, ten, fifty years from now, it'll be the hiding that you regret, not the coming out.

...More hugs? *hugs*

bluewind95
2011-03-29, 06:35 PM
Spoiler'd because it's a rather upsetting story.

In another forum I go to, someone shared a shocking, horrible story about their friend's family. They went to their house, see, and, well, they guess that the friend's brother must've come out of the closet recently or something because the father was *yelling* across the house horrible, cruel things like "Hey Fa***t, come get your gay infested jacket, don't hang it here, I don't want it touching my stuff." and "Hey fa***t boy, come down and get food, what are you doing up in there? Shoving stuff up your butt? Watching gay porn? You might end up in hell if you do that", and then the grandfather went to fetch him, and called him all sorts of names, too, and mocking him. The poor guy just said he wasn't hungry before shutting himself up in his room again...

The one who shared this story said they couldn't take it anymore and excused themselves from the house... but not before they went upstairs, took a piece of paper, a sharpie, and wrote "There's nothing wrong with you. Hang in there" and passed the paper under the door.

I'm... horrified at what this poor guy is going through... if only there were LESS people in the world like his family and more like the person who wrote that message... I'm just... shocked. How could anyone be so cruel?! I'm just glad to see there was at least one person showing the poor guy some kindness...

Nix Nihila
2011-03-29, 07:21 PM
It does not make you a crazy stalker pervert. It's called unrequited love, and is very common.

I don't know exactly what your situation is like, but I would suggest moving to a more liberal area where non-heteronormative lifestyles are more accepted as soon as you can. Although there might be reasons why you wouldn't wish to do that.

TechnoScrabble
2011-03-29, 08:01 PM
So...apparently I turned a guy named Yanto bi-curious at a party last night while I was drunk...not with curtains, just...er...flirting while drunk, apparently...

Given his name and my nickname, it's just another one of those awesomely hilarious coincidences my life is filled with.

golentan
2011-03-29, 08:16 PM
If I see a Dalek I'm blaming you.

TechnoScrabble
2011-03-29, 08:18 PM
A sexeh dalek?

AtlanteanTroll
2011-03-29, 08:28 PM
I made a post in a previous incarnation of this thread and this is a follow up.

I'm homophobic. Their, I said it. I use to think I was Bi and I while I still this is accurate, I find myself attracted to girls far more frequently then guys. (Example: Crushed on 2 guys in the last 4 years and umpteen girls)

Anyway, the seuality thing isn't the big deal. It's the homophobia. I know it's wrong, and people who are LGBTAQ (etc.) aren't my problem (I don't think) it's the act of being LGBTAQ (etc.). (I think this because I have a few gay friends, who if they aren't being sexually "show off-y" I have no problem with.

So yeah. Help? :smallannoyed:

May have to do with the fact that I was dating a girl who was Bi, dumped me becasue she decided she was a Lesbian, moved, and when I visited her, she was dating (and uh, doing something else) with another guy.

golentan
2011-03-29, 09:38 PM
A sexeh dalek?

You know, there are very few living things less sexy to me than a human being. Thank you for giving me a horrible mental image of one of them.


I made a post in a previous incarnation of this thread and this is a follow up.

I'm homophobic. Their, I said it. I use to think I was Bi and I while I still this is accurate, I find myself attracted to girls far more frequently then guys. (Example: Crushed on 2 guys in the last 4 years and umpteen girls)

Anyway, the seuality thing isn't the big deal. It's the homophobia. I know it's wrong, and people who are LGBTAQ (etc.) aren't my problem (I don't think) it's the act of being LGBTAQ (etc.). (I think this because I have a few gay friends, who if they aren't being sexually "show off-y" I have no problem with.

So yeah. Help? :smallannoyed:

May have to do with the fact that I was dating a girl who was Bi, dumped me becasue she decided she was a Lesbian, moved, and when I visited her, she was dating (and uh, doing something else) with another guy.

That's... :smallconfused:? I mean, I don't see what the problem is if you're not being a jerk about it. There's not really a solution for conditioning a desired response, and if there was that would be wrong. If something makes you uncomfortable, it does. As long as you're not arguing that your gut reaction is evidence of wrongdoing and you recognize it for what it is.

Serpentine
2011-03-29, 09:51 PM
Spoiler'd because it's a rather upsetting story.

In another forum I go to, someone shared a shocking, horrible story about their friend's family. They went to their house, see, and, well, they guess that the friend's brother must've come out of the closet recently or something because the father was *yelling* across the house horrible, cruel things like "Hey Fa***t, come get your gay infested jacket, don't hang it here, I don't want it touching my stuff." and "Hey fa***t boy, come down and get food, what are you doing up in there? Shoving stuff up your butt? Watching gay porn? You might end up in hell if you do that", and then the grandfather went to fetch him, and called him all sorts of names, too, and mocking him. The poor guy just said he wasn't hungry before shutting himself up in his room again...

The one who shared this story said they couldn't take it anymore and excused themselves from the house... but not before they went upstairs, took a piece of paper, a sharpie, and wrote "There's nothing wrong with you. Hang in there" and passed the paper under the door.

I'm... horrified at what this poor guy is going through... if only there were LESS people in the world like his family and more like the person who wrote that message... I'm just... shocked. How could anyone be so cruel?! I'm just glad to see there was at least one person showing the poor guy some kindness...Obviously it's terrible what this guy is going through, but I can't see it in as negative a light as you. I think what the story-teller did was beautiful, and I hope it helped and that he continues to do such things.

Kirion: I would really like to say that it's just like any unrequited/unwelcome crush on a friend - if they're not interested, then as long as you don't make it awkward and make it clear that you're okay with them not being interested in you etc. then it shouldn't have any impact on your friendship. But it is an unfortunate fact that, for far too many people, the sex of the crusher makes a difference to the response. All I can say is that it shouldn't.
Alas, I have no real advice to offer. I might suggest leading topics towards LGBT issues, though - not overpoweringly so, just if, say, something interesting comes up in the media that you can casually mention - to feel out his real thoughts on the matter.

AtlanteanTroll: In what way does your "homophobia" manifest itself?

unosarta
2011-03-29, 09:55 PM
That reminds me of the guy I mentioned doing stuff with earlier on in this thread (which also went fantastic, by the way; we rescheduled, and are going to hang out again as soon as he can get his schedule in order).

Basically, he came out to his parents in high school (when he was a Freshman, I think), and they were absolutely horrified. They kicked him out, and he had to live on the streets and with friends all through high school.

He has his own house now, and works for a living, but he hasn't seen his parents in 3 years. :smallfrown:

golentan
2011-03-29, 10:09 PM
I've never seen how a parent could even contemplate kicking their kid out of the house.

:smallfrown: And I was feeling so good yesterday...

Danne
2011-03-29, 10:47 PM
LA LA LA TOO MANY BAD STUFF IN RECENT POSTS HERE HAVE SOME HUGS!!!

*hugs and snuggles for everyone*

@AtlanteanTroll: Wanna know a secret? LGBT things used to make me uncomfortable. I never labeled it "homophobia," because I recognized that it was irrational, and I fully supported gay rights, etc., but it I got all flustered and even, occasionally, upset at the idea of LGBT-ness. Then I was like, "Hey, Danne, that's not cool. Must fix problem!" And I did what I always do when I don't like something I'm feeling, which is (as I've mentioned previously) go read a good book that features the thing that making me feel that way. Because I like fantasy, I started with the first two books of the Nightrunner Saga, which are EPIC on all sorts of levels, and moved onto books like The Godeaters (which is ALSO EPIC) and some old classics like The Fire's Stone. And I ended up not only fixing the "this thing is making me uncomfortable and I don't like that" feeling, but I picked up some awesome new favorite books, too!

Tl;dr: You're not a bad person, and if you'd like to "fix" your discomfort it's doable, but you don't have to so long as you're not a jerkface about it, which from what you've said you're not.

P.S. My apologies for all the caps, I'm apparently in a hyper mood right now. Probably because I've been re-watching Firefly lately, and that's, y'know, EPIC.

Coidzor
2011-03-30, 12:16 AM
That reminds me of the guy I mentioned doing stuff with earlier on in this thread (which also went fantastic, by the way; we rescheduled, and are going to hang out again as soon as he can get his schedule in order).

Basically, he came out to his parents in high school (when he was a Freshman, I think), and they were absolutely horrified. They kicked him out, and he had to live on the streets and with friends all through high school.

He has his own house now, and works for a living, but he hasn't seen his parents in 3 years. :smallfrown:

This does go to show, that, yes, there is definitely a balance that must sometimes be struck between biding one's time to a point where it won't derail or destroy the life one was living and living one's life a lie. I imagine that's part of the reason the place college has the place it does in regards to such things.

It is good to hear he was able to get back onto his feet, for too many children who are forced onto the streets end up in far worse situations. :smallsigh: Throwing out a child of 13 or 14 though... That's a new low. 16 year olds can at least theoretically find work.

It's too bad that individual from the other story didn't have any sort of escape route though... :smallannoyed: Maybe there's a slim chance there'll be a reconciliation if they haven't murdered or orphaned him though... :smallsigh:

Vaynor
2011-03-30, 01:43 AM
That reminds me of the guy I mentioned doing stuff with earlier on in this thread (which also went fantastic, by the way; we rescheduled, and are going to hang out again as soon as he can get his schedule in order).

Basically, he came out to his parents in high school (when he was a Freshman, I think), and they were absolutely horrified. They kicked him out, and he had to live on the streets and with friends all through high school.

He has his own house now, and works for a living, but he hasn't seen his parents in 3 years. :smallfrown:

These kinds of stories always make me so sad. :smallfrown:

Asta Kask
2011-03-30, 04:36 AM
Seconding Coidzor here. As you seem to have figured out, given that you haven't dated an girls recently, it's really not fair to whatever woman gets stuck with you. (I mean that in the most respectful sense, because I'm sure you're a swell guy, but still, if you don't love her, she's stuck, and she might not even know it. How horrible! :smalleek:)

Thirded. The only way this could work is if you found a similarly-minded lesbian.


I've never seen how a parent could even contemplate kicking their kid out of the house.

:smallfrown: And I was feeling so good yesterday...

There was a story in the news about a woman from Florida who killed her two teenagers because they mouthed off. I suspect drugs, psychiatric diagnosis or both.

Tamburlaine
2011-03-30, 04:52 AM
<snip>EPIC on all sorts of levels <snip> ALSO EPIC <snip> that's, y'know, EPIC.

Hey now...
http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/comics/2010-10-04.jpg

Also, all these depressing stories about parents going nuts make me realise that I am incredibly lucky on this front. Mad props must be given to anyone who has to tough out something like that.

Partysan
2011-03-30, 05:08 AM
You know, at least in Germany as parents you are legally required to pay for your child's life expenses until they're finished ith their education, even if they go to university. You could theoretically throw them out of your house (from 16 onwards) but then you'd have to pay them good money.

unosarta
2011-03-30, 07:47 AM
This does go to show, that, yes, there is definitely a balance that must sometimes be struck between biding one's time to a point where it won't derail or destroy the life one was living and living one's life a lie. I imagine that's part of the reason the place college has the place it does in regards to such things.

It is good to hear he was able to get back onto his feet, for too many children who are forced onto the streets end up in far worse situations. :smallsigh: Throwing out a child of 13 or 14 though... That's a new low. 16 year olds can at least theoretically find work.

It's too bad that individual from the other story didn't have any sort of escape route though... :smallannoyed: Maybe there's a slim chance there'll be a reconciliation if they haven't murdered or orphaned him though... :smallsigh:


These kinds of stories always make me so sad. :smallfrown:

From what I could tell, he really got into the LGBT community when he got kicked out, which seems to be the main way that he managed to survive. Which really makes me thankful for the larger LGBT community in my city than in most cities in my state, and scared for people who have this happen to them and don't even get help or support. :smallfrown::smalleek:

ION: Apparently when he came over, my parents thought it was a date. And then talked to one of my friend's mothers (who I am out to, and who is pretty awesome), and told her they suspected I was gay. So, she decided to tell me. :smallsigh:

Of course, their reaction was positive, which is something I am really, really thankful for, but I just don't want to have to be dealing with this right now. :smallsigh::smallsigh:

Blisstake
2011-03-30, 11:11 AM
From what I could tell, he really got into the LGBT community when he got kicked out, which seems to be the main way that he managed to survive. Which really makes me thankful for the larger LGBT community in my city than in most cities in my state, and scared for people who have this happen to them and don't even get help or support. :smallfrown::smalleek:

Sometimes all it takes is really good friends.

Danne
2011-03-30, 11:32 AM
Hey now...
http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/comics/2010-10-04.jpg

Also, all these depressing stories about parents going nuts make me realise that I am incredibly lucky on this front. Mad props must be given to anyone who has to tough out something like that.

I don' get it. What's wrong with epic? :smallconfused:

Blisstake
2011-03-30, 11:40 AM
Excessive use of a word makes it less meaningful.

There's a much bigger impact if someone who never swears drops an F-bomb as compared to someone who makes a habit of it.

Coidzor
2011-03-30, 11:42 AM
I don' get it. What's wrong with epic? :smallconfused:

Overuse and applying it to things which are decidedly non-epic diminishes its meaning, in much the way that awesome no longer has the same meaning as its original dictionary definition in the connotations of the people who use it. main page of that comic (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/)for further reference. The artists comments and the responses themselves have a lot more insight into the genesis and point of the comic.

Danne
2011-03-30, 12:10 PM
...But I don't use "epic" for non-epic things. All three things I mentioned are decidedly epic. Also I was hyper. I can't be held accountable for things I do when hyper. :smallwink:

Irony
2011-03-30, 01:12 PM
New-ish to the forums, but I figured I'd pop in and show my support. I'm a advocate of LGBTQA rights and an openly bi-sexual man. Great to see a strong queer community on this site. :smallsmile:

Miscast_Mage
2011-03-30, 03:13 PM
Just binged through the comic Coidzor linked, and when I came across this one (http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/548) I was just like "Beard. Beard! BeardBeardBeard. Beardy Beard. Beeard Beeeeard ooooh~ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMqKMKEQ2lI)" I really like men with beards is that such a bad thing no it's not now shut up and kiss me you fool(beardless need not apply).:smallredface:

Oh, and hi Irony!
...is it ironic that said that in a completely non-ironic way? But then does that irony make it ironic in the first place, but then it's not ironic and ackpthgzl-*Crack*

And(for a hat-trick) because the love motivator I posted a few pages ago didn't show for some, here's another (http://i.imgur.com/39wO2.jpg).

Blisstake
2011-03-30, 03:36 PM
Got enough caffeine there? :smalltongue:

I'm not really a fan of beards. Maybe stubble though...

Eleanor_Rigby
2011-03-30, 05:29 PM
...So I thought it was about time I tiptoed into one of these threads. I've been in the Playground for a little while now but I have pretty weird posting habits so it's taken a while before I decided to bite the bullet and come in, but since the thread's fairly new I thought I'd take a chance.

I guess something that's been deterring me is that while I'm all about the LGBTA goodness... I don't really have a "label". I realise there's nothing wrong with that really but I've not actually ever dated on any level so... I don't know where I am with that.

So far I've got that I'm attracted to members of both sexes but am terrified of sex and uncomfortable with kissing - on the other hand cuddles are lovely and I wish I wasn't quite so frightened of people so that I could accept them more often! I guess what I'm saying here is I'm kind of curious about the whole dating thing but have no idea how to go into it carefully without the terror of too much involved physical contact rearing its head too quicky. I'm going back to uni in September and vaguely know one girl who at least used to frequent the LGBT soc (she was an L, not that it's relevant) but it didn't sound like she found it a terribly beneficial experience. Have m/any of you guys gone to a sexuality themed university society at all? They're all different, I'd assume, so it's probably a dumb question but I thought I'd ask. :smallsigh:
I realise that compared to the people who risk losing close friends or being chucked out of their homes for coming out, my problems are teeny tiny, but I don't really know where to start so... um... maybe I should have just left it at "hi"?

...

.... ooh look. A song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsHqe5y4oUE)... I don't really see it as having been written as a theme for bisexuals but I like it anyhow. (If it were written as a bi theme it would kind of be one implying that one sex was brilliant and the other was awful, wouldn't it?:smallconfused: I think the point to take away from this is probably just "I like Herman's Hermits".)

Blisstake
2011-03-30, 05:31 PM
.... ooh look. A song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsHqe5y4oUE)... I don't really see it as having been written as a theme for bisexuals but I like it anyhow. (If it were written as a bi theme it would kind of be one implying that one sex was brilliant and the other was awful, wouldn't it?:smallconfused: I think the point to take away from this is probably just "I like Herman's Hermits".)

While we're on the topic of bi songs, I really like this one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpOgHzoO76c)

Regretably, I cannot answer your question.

golentan
2011-03-30, 08:28 PM
Got enough caffeine there? :smalltongue:

I'm not really a fan of beards. Maybe stubble though...

You know, I didn't think I was a fan of beards. Then I met this redheaded guy and... :smallredface:

rayne_dragon
2011-03-30, 11:54 PM
You know, I didn't think I was a fan of beards. Then I met this redheaded guy and... :smallredface:

Beards look nice, but the texture - they just aren't really my thing. Same goes for stubble.

Redheads, however, are something I can get behind (or any of the myriad of other locational possibilities). :smallamused:

Blisstake
2011-03-30, 11:59 PM
You know, I didn't think I was a fan of beards. Then I met this redheaded guy and... :smallredface:

Ah, well I've only been with one guy, and I definitely prefer him shaved. I suppose I could try expanding my horizons... well, if I weren't already with someone :smallsmile:

unosarta
2011-03-31, 06:39 AM
I guess something that's been deterring me is that while I'm all about the LGBTA goodness... I don't really have a "label". I realise there's nothing wrong with that really but I've not actually ever dated on any level so... I don't know where I am with that.
Sexuality is one of the most personal things about a person. No one's sexuality will ever be exactly the same as another person's, and you definitely shouldn't worry about that.


So far I've got that I'm attracted to members of both sexes but am terrified of sex and uncomfortable with kissing - on the other hand cuddles are lovely and I wish I wasn't quite so frightened of people so that I could accept them more often! I guess what I'm saying here is I'm kind of curious about the whole dating thing but have no idea how to go into it carefully without the terror of too much involved physical contact rearing its head too quicky. I'm going back to uni in September and vaguely know one girl who at least used to frequent the LGBT soc (she was an L, not that it's relevant) but it didn't sound like she found it a terribly beneficial experience. Have m/any of you guys gone to a sexuality themed university society at all? They're all different, I'd assume, so it's probably a dumb question but I thought I'd ask. :smallsigh:
I realise that compared to the people who risk losing close friends or being chucked out of their homes for coming out, my problems are teeny tiny, but I don't really know where to start so... um... maybe I should have just left it at "hi"?
Again, understanding that sexuality is really personal, and that labels will never be really fully effective at describing someone's sexuality or gender truly efficiently, you do sound sort of Asexual, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality) and you sound sort of like how they describe Biromantic. As a note; asexuality is totally cool. I think that and/or a various number of other "A" words are what the "A" in "LGBTAitp" stand for. Purportedly (heh, love that word).

As for a group that is LGBT themed: I find it kind of helpful. It is nice to find a place where I can talk to and see people besides me who are LGBT. If you ever really need to talk about a problem you are having, that is a good location to do so, or so I have found. Either way, you can always just try it out, and then drop it if you don't find the experience helpful, or if you need more free time.

ION: I came out to my Dad last night. Which was really, really awkward (mostly because he is really awkward).
Basically, they assumed that the guy who came over was going on a date with me, and then he asked me about it last night, and I told him.

Is it wrong of me to feel guilty that my parents are supportive, while I know several people whose parents would kick them out of their house if they came out to them?

Keveak
2011-03-31, 06:41 AM
So far I've got that I'm attracted to members of both sexes but am terrified of sex and uncomfortable with kissing - on the other hand cuddles are lovely and I wish I wasn't quite so frightened of people so that I could accept them more often!

That's so close to me that I will have to challenge you to a duel of cuddles!

There is no other way!

I can obviously not give you any advice on being less frightened of people or I would have used it to hoard all the cuddles myself. But I can say that I call it asexual biromantic so there's a potential denominator there.

I also call it Uryoum, but I bet that will just make you more confused. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Curse you, ginger-flavoured ninja!

I don't think you should feel guilty, Unosarta. It's really nice to know that at least some have that nice parents and if they were mean to you we'd have yet another awesome person to feel sad about.

Don't make us feel sad! T_T

Nix Nihila
2011-03-31, 06:49 AM
I want to cuddle with Keveak and Eleanor_Rigby. :smallsmile:

And Unosarta, I'm glad that your Dad seemed to react relatively well. You also shouldn't feel guilty about having supportive parents, since it's not something you can help much. I know what you mean though, I sometimes get the same sort of feeling, although I'm not sure it's exactly guilt, I just feel bad about it.

unosarta
2011-03-31, 06:55 AM
And Unosarta, I'm glad that your Dad seemed to react relatively well. You also shouldn't feel guilty about having supportive parents, since it's not something you can help much. I know what you mean though, I sometimes get the same sort of feeling, although I'm not sure it's exactly guilt, I just feel bad about it.
See my response below. Thanks for the support, though. :smallsmile:


EDIT: Curse you, ginger-flavoured ninja!

I don't think you should feel guilty, Unosarta. It's really nice to know that at least some have that nice parents and if they were mean to you we'd have yet another awesome person to feel sad about.

Don't make us feel sad! T_T

Yeah. It's just, with the guy who came over, and then with my other friend...
Basically; her parents are really homophobic. And she is pansexual. She doesn't want to live with them, as far as I know, but she can't move out, because she isn't 18. Her parents still don't know her sexuality.
Her cousin, however, does, and is really, really supportive. She just had a baby (I think she is married), and my friend loves that baby (it, like all other babies, is damn cute). She had lunch with her mother and her cousins mother. The conversation of LGBT people came up. Her aunt said that she would never allow someone who was LGBT to touch the baby, and my friend's mother agreed.
It's just... not a good situation. And there are other people like that in my LGBT group, and I feel like I shouldn't get to be happy while they have so much **** that they have to deal with. :smallfrown:

Deth Muncher
2011-03-31, 06:57 AM
Do any of you know what this "Taking Back Prom" thing is? A few of my friends in one of the Queer Activist groups (I'm assuming that's what QA stands for, anyway) asked me to help them plan theirs - their theme is "Videogaymz," and they correctly assumed I'd be a font of videogame music and such. (God, it's bad when even friends you don't know that well assume you're a huge dork. XD)

Caustic Soda
2011-03-31, 07:05 AM
Is it wrong of me to feel guilty that my parents are supportive, while I know several people whose parents would kick them out of their house if they came out to them?

No. It may not be entirely reasonable, but it is very understandable that you'd like for others to have parents who are supportive, just as yours are. So long as you realize it's hardly your fault they have problems and you don't, it shouldn't be a problem :smallsmile:

Keveak
2011-03-31, 08:12 AM
Yeah. It's just, with the guy who came over, and then with my other friend...
Basically; her parents are really homophobic. And she is pansexual. She doesn't want to live with them, as far as I know, but she can't move out, because she isn't 18. Her parents still don't know her sexuality.
Her cousin, however, does, and is really, really supportive. She just had a baby (I think she is married), and my friend loves that baby (it, like all other babies, is damn cute). She had lunch with her mother and her cousins mother. The conversation of LGBT people came up. Her aunt said that she would never allow someone who was LGBT to touch the baby, and my friend's mother agreed.
It's just... not a good situation. And there are other people like that in my LGBT group, and I feel like I shouldn't get to be happy while they have so much **** that they have to deal with. :smallfrown:

Good point, actually.

Before I go back to sulking in the corner about how cruel the world is I will say that at least you can be happy that society has gotten a little better since the times that homosexuality was considered an illness and about what you can do to help it improve even more without having to fight your own parents.

The world may not be perfect, but it's trying. :smallsmile:

Now if you'll excuse me, I will be sitting here being sad and Goth because people like your friend's mother exist. T_T

Lix Lorn
2011-03-31, 08:18 AM
Now if you'll excuse me, I will be sitting here being sad and Goth because people like your friend's mother exist. T_T
(Ruins your plan with cuddles)

Keveak
2011-03-31, 09:00 AM
(Ruins your plan with cuddles)

Curses!

You win this time, but I didn't give up! I most certainly did not want those cuddles, not at all!

>_>
<_<

*Glomps, hugs and cuddles*

Lix Lorn
2011-03-31, 11:05 AM
Curses!

You win this time, but I didn't give up! I most certainly did not want those cuddles, not at all!

>_>
<_<

*Glomps, hugs and cuddles*
Mwahaha! Clearly my evil scheme must continue! (Cuddles more!)

golentan
2011-03-31, 12:00 PM
Unosarta, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you shouldn't feel guilty for the actions of others. I'm not saying I don't understand your reasons, but that way lies madness. All you can really do is be there if needed to support people who are less fortunate.

RaggedAngel
2011-03-31, 12:43 PM
Mwahaha! Clearly my evil scheme must continue! (Cuddles more!)

*looks to the left*

*looks to the right*

I can has cuddles? :smallredface:

Coidzor
2011-03-31, 01:17 PM
It's just... not a good situation. And there are other people like that in my LGBT group, and I feel like I shouldn't get to be happy while they have so much **** that they have to deal with. :smallfrown:

Of course it's not a good situation, there's more bad situations than not in this life, regardless of one's sexuality.

If you beat yourself up over your relative good fortune, all you'll accomplish there is an early grave from the stress-related complications, and, well, that would definitely prevent you from rendering such assistance as you were able.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-31, 01:21 PM
*looks to the left*

*looks to the right*

I can has cuddles? :smallredface:
EVERYONE can!
(cuddles all)
(ALL)

Worira
2011-03-31, 01:24 PM
http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2008/07/01-07/porcupine.jpg
"Thanks, Lix! Nobody ever cuddles me :("

golentan
2011-03-31, 01:54 PM
http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2008/07/01-07/porcupine.jpg
"Thanks, Lix! Nobody ever cuddles me :("

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/sb10069753f-001.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=F5B5107058D53DF592CC46408EB6E8814DF6CE391733BB33 23BF8E52FC6B7C1D1F6F6178A68B340CBetter?

Blisstake
2011-03-31, 02:16 PM
Somehow, cuddling online doesn't feel as comfy. :smallconfused:

bluewind95
2011-03-31, 02:16 PM
But it's better than nothing for people like me who get, like, nothing at all.

Blisstake
2011-03-31, 02:18 PM
:smallfrown:

Virtual cuddling, it is.

Miscast_Mage
2011-03-31, 02:32 PM
http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2008/07/01-07/porcupine.jpg
"Thanks, Lix! Nobody ever cuddles me :("

http://i.imgur.com/ho3wm.jpg
There's always someone who has it worse. :smalltongue:
Also; bewwy wubs!

RaggedAngel
2011-03-31, 02:50 PM
Somehow, cuddling online doesn't feel as comfy. :smallconfused:

It's less the "yay warm hugs" aspect of it and more the "someone out there wants me to be happy" part. It one of the things I like about you guys; you recognise and reflect my odd need for text-based hugs. :smallsmile:

Coidzor
2011-03-31, 02:57 PM
But it's better than nothing for people like me who get, like, nothing at all.

I always find it more frustrating and depressing myself. C'est la vie, I suppose.

And calls to mind a cracked article about why the internet makes us miserable or possibly the modern era.

Which just makes me feel conflicted about being reminded of a cracked article.

Keveak
2011-03-31, 03:21 PM
http://i.imgur.com/ho3wm.jpg
There's always someone who has it worse. :smalltongue:
Also; bewwy wubs!

I wanna hug him! I love Death! ^_^


I dislike death, though. It's not gonna comfort me and hold my hand when I walk into the beyond. :smallfrown:

Which is mean! >_<


I always find it more frustrating and depressing myself. C'est la vie, I suppose.

And calls to mind a cracked article about why the internet makes us miserable or possibly the modern era.

Which just makes me feel conflicted about being reminded of a cracked article.

I read one about how those we may think have little social activity because they're addicted to the Internet may in fact be those that'd otherwise be miserable and alone because they can't do social stuff face-to-face.

So thanks for being so nice to us all, everybody. :smallsmile:

unosarta
2011-03-31, 04:47 PM
No. It may not be entirely reasonable, but it is very understandable that you'd like for others to have parents who are supportive, just as yours are. So long as you realize it's hardly your fault they have problems and you don't, it shouldn't be a problem :smallsmile:


Good point, actually.

Before I go back to sulking in the corner about how cruel the world is I will say that at least you can be happy that society has gotten a little better since the times that homosexuality was considered an illness and about what you can do to help it improve even more without having to fight your own parents.

The world may not be perfect, but it's trying. :smallsmile:

Now if you'll excuse me, I will be sitting here being sad and Goth because people like your friend's mother exist. T_T


Unosarta, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you shouldn't feel guilty for the actions of others. I'm not saying I don't understand your reasons, but that way lies madness. All you can really do is be there if needed to support people who are less fortunate.


Of course it's not a good situation, there's more bad situations than not in this life, regardless of one's sexuality.

If you beat yourself up over your relative good fortune, all you'll accomplish there is an early grave from the stress-related complications, and, well, that would definitely prevent you from rendering such assistance as you were able.

I know that I shouldn't, and that is part of the problem. And I am there to support my friends, it's just... it feels like that won't help them enough. Or at least, enough to make me feel better about it. Which, upon thinking about it, also makes me feel like I am being selfish, which also makes me feel guilty...

Arrgh...

Miscast_Mage
2011-03-31, 05:08 PM
I know that I shouldn't, and that is part of the problem. And I am there to support my friends, it's just... it feels like that won't help them enough. Or at least, enough to make me feel better about it. Which, upon thinking about it, also makes me feel like I am being selfish, which also makes me feel guilty...

Arrgh...

Behold the frustration and screwed up logic of a guilt complex. It sucks, I know.:smallfrown:

Here, have a Miscast_Mage's gentle bear-hug. *hugs*

unosarta
2011-03-31, 05:15 PM
Behold the frustration and screwed up logic of a guilt complex. It sucks, I know.:smallfrown:

Here, have a Miscast_Mage's gentle bear-hug. *hugs*

I don't know. The description for it here (http://www.nelsonsnaturalworld.com/en-gb/uk/a-z-of-ailments/emotional-health/guilt-complex/) doesn't really sound like me, from my own personal self-understanding; although it certainly could be a possibility.

Also, this has happened before. Like, when I get so worked up I start crying, I get angry at myself for crying. And then, if I get frustrated enough about it, I start crying more. :smallfrown::smallfrown:

Thank you for the hugs, though. And now I just realized that I am getting sympathy from people, even though my situation is perfectly all right, acceptable, and much better than that of other people I know.

****.

Coidzor
2011-03-31, 05:19 PM
I don't know. The description for it here (http://www.nelsonsnaturalworld.com/en-gb/uk/a-z-of-ailments/emotional-health/guilt-complex/) doesn't really sound like me, from my own personal self-understanding; although it certainly could be a possibility.

Also, this has happened before. Like, when I get so worked up I start crying, I get angry at myself for crying. And then, if I get frustrated enough about it, I start crying more. :smallfrown::smallfrown:

Thank you for the hugs, though. And now I just realized that I am getting sympathy from people, even though my situation is perfectly all right, acceptable, and much better than that of other people I know.

****.

I'd recommend exploring this more fully and at length through a variety of media and then see whether you need to consult with others. It might be at least partially a time thing, or perhaps you just want to start doing some higher level of volunteerism than you currently do.

At the very, very least, I'd recommend being aware of those who seek to profit off of the guilt of others and taking steps to avoid them.

unosarta
2011-03-31, 05:27 PM
I'd recommend exploring this more fully and at length through a variety of media and then see whether you need to consult with others. It might be at least partially a time thing, or perhaps you just want to start doing some higher level of volunteerism than you currently do.

At the very, very least, I'd recommend being aware of those who seek to profit off of the guilt of others and taking steps to avoid them.

I don't really have enough time in my schedule to do anything like volunteering; I would honestly love to, but I just don't have the time. ;_;

I don't really talk about my guilt to... anyone. Besides maybe you guys, just now.

Coidzor
2011-03-31, 05:31 PM
I don't really have enough time in my schedule to do anything like volunteering; I would honestly love to, but I just don't have the time. ;_;

I don't really talk about my guilt to... anyone. Besides maybe you guys, just now.

Well, I find working out things with at least yourself, getting it external so you can look at it slightly more objectively, even speaking it to the empty air while alone does wonders sometimes. And having to hash it out in terms that someone else understands helps add clarity to what you're feeling and also can present ways to address it, independent of whatever perspective and advice the other person can contribute.

So I'd urge you to consider your options with regards to getting it off your chest.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-31, 06:11 PM
Listen close, 'Sarta, this is something a very, very unfortunate friend told me and it's really important.

No matter how much worse someone else may have it, if something upsets you, you deserve sympathy and help and cuddles.

No exceptions.

golentan
2011-03-31, 06:22 PM
Listen close, 'Sarta, this is something a very, very unfortunate friend told me and it's really important.

No matter how much worse someone else may have it, if something upsets you, you deserve sympathy and help and cuddles.

No exceptions.

Correction. Exceptions for unrepentant murderers, rapists, et. al.

Though I kind of doubt numero uno falls into that. He seems awesome and deserves cuddles.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-31, 06:29 PM
I'm going to avoid splitting moral hairs and agree with you.

Blisstake
2011-03-31, 06:42 PM
Correction. Exceptions for unrepentant murderers, rapists, et. al.

Though I kind of doubt numero uno falls into that. He seems awesome and deserves cuddles.

And slavers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0717.html), I imagine.

Skeppio
2011-03-31, 06:54 PM
I don't really have enough time in my schedule to do anything like volunteering; I would honestly love to, but I just don't have the time. ;_;

I don't really talk about my guilt to... anyone. Besides maybe you guys, just now.

I know how you feel, mate. Here, have some more hugs. *hugs*

Eleanor_Rigby
2011-03-31, 06:59 PM
While we're on the topic of bi songs, I really like this one. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpOgHzoO76c)

Regretably, I cannot answer your question.

My internet connection's the pits so I couldn't listen to the song. I'll bear it in mind for future reference though.


Sexuality is one of the most personal things about a person. No one's sexuality will ever be exactly the same as another person's, and you definitely shouldn't worry about that.

Again, understanding that sexuality is really personal, and that labels will never be really fully effective at describing someone's sexuality or gender truly efficiently, you do sound sort of Asexual, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asexuality) and you sound sort of like how they describe Biromantic. As a note; asexuality is totally cool. I think that and/or a various number of other "A" words are what the "A" in "LGBTAitp" stand for. Purportedly (heh, love that word).

As for a group that is LGBT themed: I find it kind of helpful. It is nice to find a place where I can talk to and see people besides me who are LGBT. If you ever really need to talk about a problem you are having, that is a good location to do so, or so I have found. Either way, you can always just try it out, and then drop it if you don't find the experience helpful, or if you need more free time.

Thanks. It's only been in the last two years or so that I've been considering this in much detail myself, up until recently I'd been pretty used to everybody telling me there'd come a time when I'd "get it" as far as sexual attraction goes, eventually. I guess that's not entirely impossible, but it's come to a stage where I think really, this is just what I'm like and that's not really a problem. Not so far anyhow.
It's good to know what the appropriate labels would be though and maybe I will give the LGBT soc a try. As you say, if I don't like it, I can just mysteriously disappear from it, people drop out of university societies all the time, after all.
And Purportedly is a good word. I shall have to make a mental note to use that one more often.


ION: I came out to my Dad last night. Which was really, really awkward (mostly because he is really awkward).
Basically, they assumed that the guy who came over was going on a date with me, and then he asked me about it last night, and I told him.

Is it wrong of me to feel guilty that my parents are supportive, while I know several people whose parents would kick them out of their house if they came out to them?

Hope it was a relief to find your parents weren't bothered. (Not that they ought to have been, but it's nice to have fears ruled out)
I've not come out to anybody personally because I've not really had anything to tell them. I've explained my stance to my mum and she didn't really react at all, I guess because I was barely telling her anything she didn't already know. My dad (who's pretty awkward too) I've not spoken to about this kind of stuff. I don't think he likes to think of his daughters as people who'd date, although he does seem pretty keen on getting my younger brother to start seeing girls more, I'm not really sure what he'd think if my brother came out as gay, I think he'd rather his son dated girls because he's nuts about babies, but I'm pretty sure he'd be alright with my brother being gay otherwise (this is all moot as he's 15 and if he's given the subject any thought he doesn't seem to share it with the rest of us, he likes his privacy) and besides, Elton John adopted a kid recently, so it's not like babies couldn't be acquired.
I can sympathise with feeling guilty about supportive parents though - mine are great generally and I'll admit that one of my flatmates from last year really envied how supportive my dad was since hers was something of an absent "throw money at the problem and it will disappear" kind of dad which I felt kind of bad about, sometimes I think I take my folks for granted. Not LGBTA related, I know, but I'm incredibly lucky in that I don't think I've met anybody with similar situations - there again, I don't know many non-heteronormative people, or many people at all, so...
About the worst I've had on a personal level was a conversation my school friends were having where one of them said something along the lines of, "I can understand guys being gay, and I can understand girls being lesbians, but what's the deal with bisexuals? That's just greedy!" whereupon the general gathering nodded in agreement (which was odd because this girl had dated a few different boys so the concept of being attracted to more than one single person probably shouldn't have baffled her) but even then I was talking to my friend about it later and she cut me off in the middle to say how stupid she thought that comment was too. So I'm inordinately lucky/ pretty sheltered.
I guess what you have to do is replace the guilt with appreciation? I suppose as hard as it must be to have unsupportive parents, it must be good on some level to know that supportive ones do exist? It's a bit like that story from the other forum - it lets you know it's not really you that's the source of the problem...
I dunno. I usually get upset about these things then resolutely bury my head in the sand myself.


That's so close to me that I will have to challenge you to a duel of cuddles!

There is no other way!

I can obviously not give you any advice on being less frightened of people or I would have used it to hoard all the cuddles myself. But I can say that I call it asexual biromantic so there's a potential denominator there.

I also call it Uryoum, but I bet that will just make you more confused. :smalltongue:


It's honestly a relief to hear I'm not alone in this.
I mean I knew out there in the big ol' world there were bound to be a few people bouncing around who had similar thoughts on the subject but, really, it's good to hear from a specific individual. I feel about 70% less bizarre now (about that, I'm plenty bizarre without taking sexuality into account) so thanks!
I'll have to look Uryoum up but won't tonight as I need to go relatively soon.



I want to cuddle with Keveak and Eleanor_Rigby. :smallsmile:

This whole thread is just a great big cuddle queue, isn't it? :smallbiggrin:




I don't know. The description for it here (http://www.nelsonsnaturalworld.com/en-gb/uk/a-z-of-ailments/emotional-health/guilt-complex/) doesn't really sound like me, from my own personal self-understanding; although it certainly could be a possibility.

Also, this has happened before. Like, when I get so worked up I start crying, I get angry at myself for crying. And then, if I get frustrated enough about it, I start crying more. :smallfrown::smallfrown:

Thank you for the hugs, though. And now I just realized that I am getting sympathy from people, even though my situation is perfectly all right, acceptable, and much better than that of other people I know.

****.


Well, I find working out things with at least yourself, getting it external so you can look at it slightly more objectively, even speaking it to the empty air while alone does wonders sometimes. And having to hash it out in terms that someone else understands helps add clarity to what you're feeling and also can present ways to address it, independent of whatever perspective and advice the other person can contribute.

So I'd urge you to consider your options with regards to getting it off your chest.

If this guilt thing is something that's bad enough to bring physical tears to your eyes on a regular basis then perhaps you should consider finding some way of talking to people about it. The depression thread might be worth a shot as well if you've not posted there before (I haven't so for all I know you could be a regular there!) and this has been getting to you for a while now - they seem pretty willing to help people who realise they have a problem, regardless of the scale and I think there are anonymous options there too just as there are here. As far as the outside world goes... if you're at school, college or university there's probably some sort of counselling service(s) around where you could openly weep at a person for twenty minutes or so and they'd be obligated to a)listen b)not be a jerk to you about it and c)keep quiet about it unless they thought you were in genuine danger of committing suicide. I've had mixed results with counselling to be honest but sometimes even if the person you end up going to is fairly useless, they'll know of an organisation that could be useful and can point you in a more helpful direction.

Much like every one else who's commented on this has said, you seem like a very considerate person as well as a fortunate one and the fact that your friends have been suffering is not your fault. I think you're perfectly entitled to happiness and I suspect your friends do to. (Reworded that way too many times trying to think of the least guilt-inducing phrasing!)

EDIT:


Listen close, 'Sarta, this is something a very, very unfortunate friend told me and it's really important.

No matter how much worse someone else may have it, if something upsets you, you deserve sympathy and help and cuddles.

No exceptions.

Lix has wise friend(s). And is wise also, obviously.

Trog
2011-03-31, 08:09 PM
Trog knows that this used to be the LGBitp thread. And since then it looks like you've added more *looks at thread title, looks back* T&A?

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Never let it be said that Trog doesn't love a little T&A.

But uh seriously, Trog knows what "T" stands for... what's the "A" stand for? :smallconfused:

Mystic Muse
2011-03-31, 08:13 PM
Trog knows that this used to be the LGBitp thread. And since then it looks like you've added more *looks at thread title, looks back* T&A?

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Never let it be said that Trog doesn't love a little T&A.

But uh seriously, Trog knows what "T" stands for... what's the "A" stand for? :smallconfused:

A-anything although the thing that came to mind was Asexual.

Blisstake
2011-03-31, 08:28 PM
Asexual, I believe.

Coidzor
2011-03-31, 08:42 PM
Asexual, I believe.

Yup, we've had about a page and a half worth of posts about how much people have enjoyed having their letter be part of the thread title now. I think about 6 pages worth of discussing the change so far, counting its implementation I think that's another 1-2.

There's really only asexuals and allies to choose from, and allies is generally so far down the list one hits about 7 letters before it gets into the picture.

unosarta
2011-03-31, 09:27 PM
So many responses. :smalleek:

Well, I find working out things with at least yourself, getting it external so you can look at it slightly more objectively, even speaking it to the empty air while alone does wonders sometimes. And having to hash it out in terms that someone else understands helps add clarity to what you're feeling and also can present ways to address it, independent of whatever perspective and advice the other person can contribute.

So I'd urge you to consider your options with regards to getting it off your chest.
Yeah, I talked to it with someone I know today, and she said that I really shouldn't feel that bad about it. And I guess I do, it is just kind of confusing, and introspection isn't really helping right now. I might go talk to my friends, but they all have absolutely ****ty personal lives (their parents are too poor (in the case of one friend, she couldn't afford the AP test), their parents don't care about them, their parents are buttheads, their parents siblings are buttheads); in fact, I think literally every friend that I would be willing to talk to this about is in a situation worse off than me, which makes it seem like I am just looking for attention, and bleargh. :smallfrown:


Listen close, 'Sarta, this is something a very, very unfortunate friend told me and it's really important.

No matter how much worse someone else may have it, if something upsets you, you deserve sympathy and help and cuddles.

No exceptions.
This... this is a good mantra. *hugs for Lix*


Correction. Exceptions for unrepentant murderers, rapists, et. al.

Though I kind of doubt numero uno falls into that. He seems awesome and deserves cuddles.
A good addendum.


I know how you feel, mate. Here, have some more hugs. *hugs*
:smallsmile: All these hugs are making me feel better. I was going to pass them on to my friends yesterday, but I forgot :smallredface:; I will just have to do it tomorrow.


Thanks. It's only been in the last two years or so that I've been considering this in much detail myself, up until recently I'd been pretty used to everybody telling me there'd come a time when I'd "get it" as far as sexual attraction goes, eventually. I guess that's not entirely impossible, but it's come to a stage where I think really, this is just what I'm like and that's not really a problem. Not so far anyhow.
It's good to know what the appropriate labels would be though and maybe I will give the LGBT soc a try. As you say, if I don't like it, I can just mysteriously disappear from it, people drop out of university societies all the time, after all.
And Purportedly is a good word. I shall have to make a mental note to use that one more often.
People telling you that you will eventually "get it" or that you are just going through a "phase" are full of ****, pardon my French. Seriously.

I love that word. Unfortunately, my needlessly large lexicon tends to alienate others. :smallfrown: Well, all the non-LGBT people anyway; they don't really care, since I am much more open about stuff with them, and we get on topics that have to do with sexuality often, and I don't use large words in those cases.


Hope it was a relief to find your parents weren't bothered. (Not that they ought to have been, but it's nice to have fears ruled out)
I've not come out to anybody personally because I've not really had anything to tell them. I've explained my stance to my mum and she didn't really react at all, I guess because I was barely telling her anything she didn't already know. My dad (who's pretty awkward too) I've not spoken to about this kind of stuff. I don't think he likes to think of his daughters as people who'd date, although he does seem pretty keen on getting my younger brother to start seeing girls more, I'm not really sure what he'd think if my brother came out as gay, I think he'd rather his son dated girls because he's nuts about babies, but I'm pretty sure he'd be alright with my brother being gay otherwise (this is all moot as he's 15 and if he's given the subject any thought he doesn't seem to share it with the rest of us, he likes his privacy) and besides, Elton John adopted a kid recently, so it's not like babies couldn't be acquired.
I can sympathise with feeling guilty about supportive parents though - mine are great generally and I'll admit that one of my flatmates from last year really envied how supportive my dad was since hers was something of an absent "throw money at the problem and it will disappear" kind of dad which I felt kind of bad about, sometimes I think I take my folks for granted. Not LGBTA related, I know, but I'm incredibly lucky in that I don't think I've met anybody with similar situations - there again, I don't know many non-heteronormative people, or many people at all, so...
About the worst I've had on a personal level was a conversation my school friends were having where one of them said something along the lines of, "I can understand guys being gay, and I can understand girls being lesbians, but what's the deal with bisexuals? That's just greedy!" whereupon the general gathering nodded in agreement (which was odd because this girl had dated a few different boys so the concept of being attracted to more than one single person probably shouldn't have baffled her) but even then I was talking to my friend about it later and she cut me off in the middle to say how stupid she thought that comment was too. So I'm inordinately lucky/ pretty sheltered.
I guess what you have to do is replace the guilt with appreciation? I suppose as hard as it must be to have unsupportive parents, it must be good on some level to know that supportive ones do exist? It's a bit like that story from the other forum - it lets you know it's not really you that's the source of the problem...
I dunno. I usually get upset about these things then resolutely bury my head in the sand myself.
Yeah. Oh man, I never understood parents' need for their children to have children that are biologically related to them. I would much rather adopt a child; there are far too many people in the world already, we don't need anymore as far as I am concerned. But that is kind of political, so anyway.

I feel bad for your old flatmate. That really sucks. :smallfrown:

I could never, ever try to deny bisexuality A) because that would be denying a group of people's existence, which is just illogical since I know so many bisexual people, and B) because some of my closest LGBT friends are Bisexual, and they would never forgive me. But mostly A).

ION: Also, there was a representative from a Hmong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_people) LGBT group based in Minneapolis, who also happens to be the only Hmong LGBT group in the world. In the Hmong communities, being LGBT is something that would allow you to be disowned, and a lot of Hmong people are really homophobic. The younger generations are more exposed to LGBT stuff, so they tend to be less bigoted, but the older generations are still very, very homophobic. It made me really sad to hear that, since I know so many Hmong people. :smallfrown::smallfrown:


This whole thread is just a great big cuddle queue, isn't it? :smallbiggrin:
...Pretty much.


If this guilt thing is something that's bad enough to bring physical tears to your eyes on a regular basis then perhaps you should consider finding some way of talking to people about it. The depression thread might be worth a shot as well if you've not posted there before (I haven't so for all I know you could be a regular there!) and this has been getting to you for a while now - they seem pretty willing to help people who realise they have a problem, regardless of the scale and I think there are anonymous options there too just as there are here. As far as the outside world goes... if you're at school, college or university there's probably some sort of counselling service(s) around where you could openly weep at a person for twenty minutes or so and they'd be obligated to a)listen b)not be a jerk to you about it and c)keep quiet about it unless they thought you were in genuine danger of committing suicide. I've had mixed results with counselling to be honest but sometimes even if the person you end up going to is fairly useless, they'll know of an organisation that could be useful and can point you in a more helpful direction.
Oh, no no no. The guilt about the crying doesn't happen... ever. I cried for like, the stupidest reason during spring break (because I didn't get to see that previously mentioned guy...), which really made me angry, since I was assuming stuff, and I knew it, and I was angry about that, and then I was angry about crying, because tears don't solve anything, and it was just frustrating. But honestly, I hadn't cried like that in... a year or so. Like, really, I don't cry ever. That might have had something to do with it...
Actually the only time I have even come close to crying was when I was talking to the LGBT group at my school (which was also like 50 people at the time :smalleek:) about a long time friend/acquaintance who called me a ****** (in jest, but it was really hurtful), and I almost started crying. But I managed to stop myself, since I was convinced I wasn't really upset about it (and I honestly still don't think I am).


Much like every one else who's commented on this has said, you seem like a very considerate person as well as a fortunate one and the fact that your friends have been suffering is not your fault. I think you're perfectly entitled to happiness and I suspect your friends do to. (Reworded that way too many times trying to think of the least guilt-inducing phrasing!)
Well, thank you. I hope your own situation goes well too. :smallsmile:

Serpentine
2011-03-31, 09:52 PM
http://i.imgur.com/ho3wm.jpg
There's always someone who has it worse. :smalltongue:
Also; bewwy wubs!You know, when I die, I really truly genuinely hope it's the Discworld Death who comes for me, so I can give him a big hug and tell him I appreciate him.

rayne_dragon
2011-03-31, 09:57 PM
I kinda hope for Death from the sandman comics, or maybe the Incarnations of Immortality version for a completely different reason.

Also,


Listen close, 'Sarta, this is something a very, very unfortunate friend told me and it's really important.

No matter how much worse someone else may have it, if something upsets you, you deserve sympathy and help and cuddles.

No exceptions.

This is one of the best things that has ever been said anywhere.

Trog
2011-03-31, 10:08 PM
Asexual, I believe.
Ahh... good to know. Thanks. :smallsmile:

celtois
2011-03-31, 11:48 PM
@Unosarta

Typed out this post then realized I should probably spoiler it due to the length, feel free not the read it, but if you do I hope it helps.


While I haven't really read through everyone responses to you or all your responses back. I'm just going to address what you were talking about initially; feeling guilty.

So essentially you are one of those crazy people we are going to call a giver.

I'm going to equate emotional support to sustenance so bear with me a for a second.

As I recall you were feeling guilty because you are in a situation where your parents are supportive of being LGBT, while your friends parents are not, an now you feel more guilty because you are receiving sympathy for your problems which you consider minor in comparison.

I'm going to look at the second reason for guilt first.

So let's say that if you have smaller or less problems, you have more food, and no food being dire problems. So what you seem to be doing is saying, look everyone else has problems that are so much worse than mine. I have all these friends who can't eat because they don't have enough food, and here I am receiving food stamps(emotional support) when I already have enough food to live on. I feel awful. I should give all my friends food to eat.
(Which is a good thing to do by the way. :smallwink:) So you decided to give away all your food stamps and all your food so you friends can eat, the result you are left with an empty belly/no food (problems un-addressed), and if you don't you feel guilty.

This is not a healthy reaction, starving yourself to feed your friends helps nobody in the long run, you can only give away so much, so rather then feeling guilty for receiving support, use the added emotional stability that support can bring to help your friend out, that way your emotionally healthier and your friend is too.

As for the cause of guilt number two

There is nothing wrong with feeling bad for another situation, however your family being supportive while theirs is not is like feeling really guilty, for not sharing food with someone despite it already being in your belly, by which I don't mean you ate it, it just magically appeared there with no chance for you to share it. it isn't a situation you can change, so the guilt only hampers your own emotional state and makes you frustrated about a situation you had no control over. Food magically appearing in your belly, instead of trying to work with the situation that you found yourself in to help your friend. The guilt isn't helping anyone.

And I swear if you feel guilty after reading this post! :smalltongue:

Now guilt is a natural thing, someone that all normal people feel however in these situations it is clear that guilt isn't helping anyone. So instead of looking at these situations as something that you had any control over ie. (Can feel guilt about.) Look at them as a chance to take a rotten situation you were stuck in and find a way to make it just a bit better. Don't waste your energy feeling bad that you lucked out and your friend didn't, share the luck by being a happier better person for it and a good supportive friend.

golentan
2011-04-01, 12:56 AM
You know, when I die, I really truly genuinely hope it's the Discworld Death who comes for me, so I can give him a big hug and tell him I appreciate him.

When I die, I really hope it's my friend who comes for me. I'd like to snuggle again one last time, and I'm fair sure she'd give me both what I feel I deserve and desire post-life.

Skeppio
2011-04-01, 01:00 AM
@Unosarta

Typed out this post then realized I should probably spoiler it due to the length, feel free not the read it, but if you do I hope it helps.

*snip*

That is actually a really awesome and accurate analogy. :smallbiggrin:

Vaynor
2011-04-01, 04:27 AM
I could never, ever try to deny bisexuality A) because that would be denying a group of people's existence, which is just illogical since I know so many bisexual people, and B) because some of my closest LGBT friends are Bisexual, and they would never forgive me. But mostly A).

Bisexuals have come a long way in this regard, but I've still met plenty of people that deny pansexuals, which is unfortunate. :smallfrown:

Maybe bisexualism just wasn't greedy enough. :P

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-01, 05:11 AM
Bisexuals have come a long way in this regard, but I've still met plenty of people that deny pansexuals, which is unfortunate. :smallfrown:

Maybe bisexualism just wasn't greedy enough. :P

:smallsigh: The sad thing is, this make's it even worse because people haven't learned the lesson, they've just moved the same stupid logic to another group. Hextor forbid that people don't learn to make snap-judgements based on who you'd want to ahn-ahhn~ with.

On a slightly happier note, Miscast_Mage has a date. A sexy date. Onward! To yayness! and some ahn-ahhn~ too.:smallredface:

Coidzor
2011-04-01, 07:02 AM
:smallconfused: Are you guys referring to people not distinguishing between bi and pan or something else that I've never heard of before?

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-01, 07:40 AM
:smallconfused: Are you guys referring to people not distinguishing between bi and pan or something else that I've never heard of before?

I've seen people who refuse to believe people can be bi/pan, thinking they're just doing it for attention or that they don't know whether or not they're gay/straight yet, or that they can be bi/pan, but that means automatically wanting to hump anyone and anything within a 1m meter radius.:smallannoyed:

Lyesmith
2011-04-01, 08:05 AM
:smallconfused: Are you guys referring to people not distinguishing between bi and pan or something else that I've never heard of before?

Is there genuinely a difference? I don't really see it.

Nix Nihila
2011-04-01, 09:12 AM
Is there genuinely a difference? I don't really see it.

I think the idea is that pansexuality doesn't imply that there are only two genders. Most people I know don't really distinguish between them though.

MickJay
2011-04-01, 02:58 PM
Bisexuals have come a long way in this regard, but I've still met plenty of people that deny pansexuals, which is unfortunate. :smallfrown:

Maybe bisexualism just wasn't greedy enough. :P

Hey, I know one bisexual female who still has a hard time figuring out why exactly "Ts" are grouped with the rest of "LGB"... on a somewhat related note, I found "LGBT+" to be a practical way of showing inclusiveness of the acronym. Otherwise, it either ends up excluding some people, or becomes a 13+ letter long monstrosity.

"Pan" in "pansexual" is supposed to remove what some people consider to be a too restrictive "binary" approach to gender/biological sex. "Bi" = male and female, "pan" = male, female and everyone else who don't neatly fit into either category.

Lyesmith
2011-04-01, 03:03 PM
Hey, I know one bisexual female who still has a hard time figuring out why exactly "Ts" are grouped with the rest of "LGB"... on a somewhat related note, I found "LGBT+" to be a practical way of showing inclusiveness of the acronym. Otherwise, it either ends up excluding some people, or becomes a 13+ letter long monstrosity.

"Pan" in "pansexual" is supposed to remove what some people consider to be a too restrictive "binary" approach to gender/biological sex. "Bi" = male and female, "pan" = male, female and everyone else who don't neatly fit into either category.

I've always mentally translated Bi as including these other genders anyway, pan seems a little semantically suspect if I think about it too much.

Eleanor_Rigby
2011-04-01, 04:17 PM
I'd be more likely to describe myself as bisexual than pansexual because it's a wider used term but I wouldn't reject a wonderful person who happened to be intersex or trans because both fit into my concept of bi which I prefer as a term for simplicity's sake.
On the other hand I'm not going to approach somebody who describes their sexual identity as pansexual and tell them that they've got it wrong because that would be mean and daft. As far as I can see there's a huge amount of overlap between the two terms though and it's mostly down to respecting what people would prefer to be described as for me. I've got very little experience in this whole area though because I've been brought up in an environment where these discussions don't really come up and my general knowledge of anything outside of Straight/Gay comes almost 100% from the internet.

Thanks for your responses unosarta, I hope I didn't come over as weirdly pushy/know-it-all or anything as far as your problems go. I'm overdue for a look-in on the depression thread myself and a lot of my problems as far as depression go are related to guilt. I have a lot of Autistic spectrum in my family but barely register on it myself so I get mad at myself when I struggle because I feel like I'm not entitled to do so - I understand this is stupid and I'm not fishing for sympathy but you strike me as far too nice a person to go down the guilt roads I've gone down and I like to try and help people where I can, especially if they've been helpful/kind to me.
And re: the ****** thing, that sounds like something I tend to do: if I'm talking about something that I realise could/should be upsetting I'm pretty likely to start crying about it even if I'm not actually genuinely distressed about it. I think I'm probably a lot teary-er than you are but still. It's kind of like the reaction people have when they cry at sad movies, I think... it's a short term kind of bawling that's probably "OK" in the long run. (I'm not 100% sure I guessed the word right but I suspect it's vaguely moot anyhow. I'm thinking of something that's much nicer when it's used in reference to lace work.)
Celtois, whether your analogies were helpful to unosarta or not, I really identified with what you were saying personally. I shall keep what you've said in mind for future use, thanks for being (at the very least) indirectly helpful!

Ooh! And I think "LGBT+" is a good term. "LGBTA" is a few more letters than I care to use and LGBT+ feels inclusive enough for my purposes so... thanks. :smallbiggrin:

Vaynor
2011-04-01, 04:20 PM
I've always mentally translated Bi as including these other genders anyway, pan seems a little semantically suspect if I think about it too much.

Right, but it doesn't. Semantics aside, I've met bisexuals who aren't attracted to non-binary genders (I don't know enough bisexuals to gauge this properly, but the fact that such a demographic even exists is reason enough for the word pansexual, in my opinion). I think a lot of bisexuals are attracted to non-binary genders/sexes in the same way pansexuals are, but that's mostly because pansexualism isn't a widely used term at this point.

unosarta
2011-04-01, 04:41 PM
Bisexuals have come a long way in this regard, but I've still met plenty of people that deny pansexuals, which is unfortunate. :smallfrown:

Maybe bisexualism just wasn't greedy enough. :P
Ugh. So... much... illogicality...


@Unosarta

Typed out this post then realized I should probably spoiler it due to the length, feel free not the read it, but if you do I hope it helps.


While I haven't really read through everyone responses to you or all your responses back. I'm just going to address what you were talking about initially; feeling guilty.

So essentially you are one of those crazy people we are going to call a giver.

I'm going to equate emotional support to sustenance so bear with me a for a second.

As I recall you were feeling guilty because you are in a situation where your parents are supportive of being LGBT, while your friends parents are not, an now you feel more guilty because you are receiving sympathy for your problems which you consider minor in comparison.

I'm going to look at the second reason for guilt first.

So let's say that if you have smaller or less problems, you have more food, and no food being dire problems. So what you seem to be doing is saying, look everyone else has problems that are so much worse than mine. I have all these friends who can't eat because they don't have enough food, and here I am receiving food stamps(emotional support) when I already have enough food to live on. I feel awful. I should give all my friends food to eat.
(Which is a good thing to do by the way. :smallwink:) So you decided to give away all your food stamps and all your food so you friends can eat, the result you are left with an empty belly/no food (problems un-addressed), and if you don't you feel guilty.

This is not a healthy reaction, starving yourself to feed your friends helps nobody in the long run, you can only give away so much, so rather then feeling guilty for receiving support, use the added emotional stability that support can bring to help your friend out, that way your emotionally healthier and your friend is too.

As for the cause of guilt number two

There is nothing wrong with feeling bad for another situation, however your family being supportive while theirs is not is like feeling really guilty, for not sharing food with someone despite it already being in your belly, by which I don't mean you ate it, it just magically appeared there with no chance for you to share it. it isn't a situation you can change, so the guilt only hampers your own emotional state and makes you frustrated about a situation you had no control over. Food magically appearing in your belly, instead of trying to work with the situation that you found yourself in to help your friend. The guilt isn't helping anyone.

And I swear if you feel guilty after reading this post! :smalltongue:

Now guilt is a natural thing, someone that all normal people feel however in these situations it is clear that guilt isn't helping anyone. So instead of looking at these situations as something that you had any control over ie. (Can feel guilt about.) Look at them as a chance to take a rotten situation you were stuck in and find a way to make it just a bit better. Don't waste your energy feeling bad that you lucked out and your friend didn't, share the luck by being a happier better person for it and a good supportive friend.


You make a sensible point. I talked to one of my friends today, and she said similar things.

I also took Lix's advice and gave her a hug, although it was weird, because she didn't really want it apparently. :C
I ended up giving it to her anyway, but her argument was basically "I am not that bad off, don't hug me." Even though her parents are crazy (sometimes good crazy, sometimes...), and they couldn't afford to pay for a 35$ test, or something. It was stupid. And she seemed kinda bummed. So I hugged her.

It was also weird because people seemed to be looking at us strangely after that, even though it was totally not that kind of hug, and she has a boyfriend anyway. :smallconfused:
People are illogical.


On a slightly happier note, Miscast_Mage has a date. A sexy date. Onward! To yayness! and some ahn-ahhn~ too.:smallredface:
Oh my gosh, congratulations! Tell us all, good sir, tell us all... >:D
I have found myself using more and more non-GitP smilies as time moves on... weird.

Lix Lorn
2011-04-01, 05:01 PM
I also took Lix's advice and gave her a hug, although it was weird, because she didn't really want it apparently. :C
I ended up giving it to her anyway, but her argument was basically "I am not that bad off, don't hug me." Even though her parents are crazy (sometimes good crazy, sometimes...), and they couldn't afford to pay for a 35$ test, or something. It was stupid. And she seemed kinda bummed. So I hugged her.
Clearly she needs to hear the philosophy too. DXD
(hugs all)

unosarta
2011-04-01, 05:05 PM
Clearly she needs to hear the philosophy too. DXD
(hugs all)

No, I clearly explained it to her, and she was like "I don't care, I don't need any hugs." Fortunately, I am bigger than her, and forced the hug anyway. :D

Lix Lorn
2011-04-01, 05:17 PM
Aaah. xD
Hugs are important. (nodnod)

Eleanor_Rigby
2011-04-01, 05:26 PM
Aaah. xD
Hugs are important. (nodnod)

I read this, and as I did so, my sister apparated behind me, gave me a big hug and said "I love you", trotted off to the corner to "hug the fish goodnight" (which I also do - I can't hug the fish so I hug "his" tank to express fondness for "him", he's a goldfish who lives alone so I have no idea whether that pronoun's accurate, we figure so long as we keep him fed and clean, he's not going to be upset about what we call him) then wandered off to bed. Love, romantic or otherwise, is good. [/sappy]

Miscast_Mage, I do not know you. But I'm going to wish you good luck for your date anyway, because you seem to be looking forward to it and I expect you've got good reason to so I hope it goes well. Now that you have "good luck" from a random internet stranger, everything shall go swimmingly. :smallsmile: [/creepy]

Lix Lorn
2011-04-01, 05:57 PM
I read this, and as I did so, my sister apparated behind me, gave me a big hug and said "I love you", trotted off to the corner to "hug the fish goodnight" (which I also do - I can't hug the fish so I hug "his" tank to express fondness for "him", he's a goldfish who lives alone so I have no idea whether that pronoun's accurate, we figure so long as we keep him fed and clean, he's not going to be upset about what we call him) then wandered off to bed. Love, romantic or otherwise, is good. [/sappy]
Okay everyone, deep breath, 3, 2, 1
DAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-01, 06:10 PM
Okay everyone, deep breath, 3, 2, 1
DAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

D'awww. My d'awww may be small, but it's strength is larger than any sound.

And thanks for the good wishes, guys. I shall have more info when it commences on Sunday!

unosarta
2011-04-01, 06:18 PM
D'awww. My d'awww may be small, but it's strength is larger than any sound.

And thanks for the good wishes, guys. I shall have more info when it commences on Sunday!

Oh, I read it as having already happened. Well, good luck. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Danne
2011-04-01, 09:24 PM
See my response below. Thanks for the support, though. :smallsmile:



Yeah. It's just, with the guy who came over, and then with my other friend...
Basically; her parents are really homophobic. And she is pansexual. She doesn't want to live with them, as far as I know, but she can't move out, because she isn't 18. Her parents still don't know her sexuality.
Her cousin, however, does, and is really, really supportive. She just had a baby (I think she is married), and my friend loves that baby (it, like all other babies, is damn cute). She had lunch with her mother and her cousins mother. The conversation of LGBT people came up. Her aunt said that she would never allow someone who was LGBT to touch the baby, and my friend's mother agreed.
It's just... not a good situation. And there are other people like that in my LGBT group, and I feel like I shouldn't get to be happy while they have so much **** that they have to deal with. :smallfrown:

That's terrible. People shouldn't have to hide from those who supposedly love them. :smallfrown:

Unsorta, folks have already discussed why it's okay to feel guilty and such, so instead, I charge you with the command to give this child as much snuggles and cuddles as possible, if you get the opportunity. What's the aunt and grandmother have to do with who gets to do what with someone's kid, anyway?

Just be there for your friend and be glad that she has supportive cousins and cute grand-cousins (or whatever you call a cousin's child, once-removed-something-or-others and such).

unosarta
2011-04-01, 09:37 PM
That's terrible. People shouldn't have to hide from those who supposedly love them. :smallfrown:

Unsorta, folks have already discussed why it's okay to feel guilty and such, so instead, I charge you with the command to give this child as much snuggles and cuddles as possible, if you get the opportunity. What's the aunt and grandmother have to do with who gets to do what with someone's kid, anyway?

Just be there for your friend and be glad that she has supportive cousins and cute grand-cousins (or whatever you call a cousin's child, once-removed-something-or-others and such).

I know. :smallfrown:

I would! But I don't have any classes with her, and the only time I get to really see her is at the LGBT meetings, and the last one I forgot. And I never see her in the halls, or I would totally hug her. :smallfrown:

rayne_dragon
2011-04-01, 10:08 PM
No, I clearly explained it to her, and she was like "I don't care, I don't need any hugs." Fortunately, I am bigger than her, and forced the hug anyway. :D

Er... not to detract from your attempt at a good deed, but forcing a hug still has the potential to be unwanted contact and I have to object to the idea that anyone has a right to force any kind of physical contact on another person. That said, there is a difference between someone saying they don't want a hug and actually not wanting one - and I trust that you know the person in question well enough to tell the difference.


Right, but it doesn't. Semantics aside, I've met bisexuals who aren't attracted to non-binary genders (I don't know enough bisexuals to gauge this properly, but the fact that such a demographic even exists is reason enough for the word pansexual, in my opinion). I think a lot of bisexuals are attracted to non-binary genders/sexes in the same way pansexuals are, but that's mostly because pansexualism isn't a widely used term at this point.

Speaking as someone who considers themselves pansexual, I did have a concern about my ability to be attracted to someone who was outside my own concepts of male and female - until I met and was attracted to such a person. Funnily enough this was before I knew about my own condition. But the point I'm trying to make is that even as someone who thought they'd be accepting of all gender variations it occurred to me to doubt that I wasn't just bisexual in a 'only attracted to male or female' sort of way. So, come to think of it, pansexual does make a useful distinction, it just isn't used commonly enough (yet) that people understand that it is a useful term. Most bisexual may actually be pansexual, but given all the varients of sexuality there must be some who aren't. Even as a pansexual, I wonder if it wouldn't be more useful for me to try to find a term to describe that I generally only have interest in other bi/pansexuals. Maybe I'm chopping it too fine. Still as one of those non-binary gender folk I have to say that I do appreciate people who identify as pansexual (and I don't feel it detracts from bisexuals who are okay with people like me either, it just makes it a little easier to tell that they'll be okay with me or people like me).

unosarta
2011-04-01, 10:11 PM
Er... not to detract from your attempt at a good deed, but forcing a hug still has the potential to be unwanted contact and I have to object to the idea that anyone has a right to force any kind of physical contact on another person. That said, there is a difference between someone saying they don't want a hug and actually not wanting one - and I trust that you know the person in question well enough to tell the difference.

My wording was bad here. She actually said that she didn't need a hug, and I thought she did, so I hugged her. And then afterward, she said that she used to get a bunch of hugs every day, but that recently they have been petering out (this in response to me hugging her), so I hugged her again. Because she sounded sad. :smallfrown:

rayne_dragon
2011-04-01, 10:30 PM
My wording was bad here. She actually said that she didn't need a hug, and I thought she did, so I hugged her. And then afterward, she said that she used to get a bunch of hugs every day, but that recently they have been petering out (this in response to me hugging her), so I hugged her again. Because she sounded sad. :smallfrown:

I did say that I was sure you wouldn't actually force a hug on someone who doesn't want one. I just didn't want anyone to get the impression that such a thing is okay. Especially given that my reaction to people touching me after I have told them to stop tends to rapidly become very painful for them.

But I don't like that your friend is sad and lacking hugs... would you offer her one for me please?

unosarta
2011-04-01, 10:48 PM
I did say that I was sure you wouldn't actually force a hug on someone who doesn't want one. I just didn't want anyone to get the impression that such a thing is okay. Especially given that my reaction to people touching me after I have told them to stop tends to rapidly become very painful for them.

But I don't like that your friend is sad and lacking hugs... would you offer her one for me please?

Of course! Unfortunately, I am no where near her right now, and I probably won't be until Monday. But I will most assuredly hug her on Monday. :D

Serpentine
2011-04-01, 11:54 PM
My main problem with pansexuality is when it's used in an "oh, I'm attracted to people and perthonalitieth, not thextheth", which I find nonsensical. Thus the lisping.
...It makes more sense when I do it out loud. Anyway, as a "more accurate" terminological alternative with the same definition I'm fine with the concept.

Alanzeign
2011-04-02, 12:36 AM
Is there a true distinction between bisexuality and pansexuality? I mean, if we're just talking labels and everyone fits into one more or less generically but has their individual point on the spectrum then I suppose I don't care. What I don't understand is if people can be attracted to both "accepted genders" how can you be not attracted to someone that is an inbetween gender or possibly an intersex.

I understand there's more than just physical attraction, but I was always under the impression that love is not something that is divided by sexual activity, and that sex is something separate in itself. I can love men and women equally, but I am not bisexual. I'm gay, so for me it is largely a physical response that determines this (honestly, it is entirely phsyical). How can you be physically attracted to both men and women, but not a socially constructed gender that is inbetween? I mean, if personality is a criteria (which it certainly is for me) I understand a little bit, but what does sexuality have to do with personality?

I don't mean to be offensive, in fact, I have a close friend that would probably explain it well and knock me on the head if I asked but she's far away. It just seems strange to me that an actual distinction exists rather than a perceived and biased, perhaps political statement.

golentan
2011-04-02, 01:21 AM
I spent all night wishing for a hug that nobody gave me.

Mystic Muse
2011-04-02, 01:23 AM
*Internet hug*

It's not great but it's all I can do. :smallfrown:

golentan
2011-04-02, 01:52 AM
Sigh. I just have a giant sweaty mancrush on half of my theater group. And I have no idea which if any of them might return it. And then I see some of them giving each other backrubs and nobody gives me a backrub and I could really use a backrub and why can't I stop staring in the dressing room I'm not even doing it deliberately and nobody else has noticed but it makes me feel like one of the really creepy stereotypes from 50s anti-gay propaganda and holy cow that guy is built like a puma and I just want him to pounce on me...

RAAAAAGH!!! Why does sexuality have to be so confusing?

Coidzor
2011-04-02, 02:03 AM
It would seem that your current issue is mostly in regards to how well you know them and what terms you're on with them with a fair bit of raw animal lust, which doesn't really seem confusing so much as just vexing.

golentan
2011-04-02, 02:06 AM
It's confusing because... I don't know why, it just is. I never expect lust, so it always weirds me out and leaves me puzzled. And it's compounded by confusion over what degree of touching is acceptable, because damn it I want to find a cuddle pile and never leave it regardless of whether sexuality is ever involved.

Vaynor
2011-04-02, 03:23 AM
My main problem with pansexuality is when it's used in an "oh, I'm attracted to people and perthonalitieth, not thextheth", which I find nonsensical. Thus the lisping.
...It makes more sense when I do it out loud. Anyway, as a "more accurate" terminological alternative with the same definition I'm fine with the concept.

This is extremely offensive. Have you actually met someone who behaves like this? Anyways, it's a difficult concept to understand so they may have just explained it badly. You're misunderstanding the concept as well. The idea is that the genitals a person has is an irrelevant piece of information when determining their attractiveness, everything else is still in play (appearance, personality, hobbies, etc.). It may be a more accurate term for most people who consider themselves bisexual, but the terms are definitively different in an important way.

Worira
2011-04-02, 04:02 AM
I have heard multiple people use almost that exact wording in these threads, yes.

Rawhide
2011-04-02, 04:20 AM
You see, to me, there's absolutely no difference between bisexual and pansexual.

Not because pansexual doesn't exist. But because, for me, bisexual has always included what everyone describes pansexual to be.

Caustic Soda
2011-04-02, 05:07 AM
My own problem with the word "pansexual" is that it makes me associate to someone who can be attracted to anything, Jack Harkness-style, rather than someone who can be attracted to anyone, which is how I understand it to be meant. But eh, I also have an irrational hatred for the word "queer", even f I don't feel any such hatred for people who fall outside established social norms wrt. gender and/or sexuality *shrug*

Anethiel
2011-04-02, 05:25 AM
Maybe we could parallel boolean algebra and label people who are attracted to cis-male and cis-female people only as "xbisexuals", as in "exclusive bisexuals", which would mean "attracted to masculine exclusive-OR feminine traits", opposed to "bisexuals" which would mean "attracted to masculine inclusive-OR feminine traits". :smalltongue:

Asta Kask
2011-04-02, 05:27 AM
This is extremely offensive. Have you actually met someone who behaves like this?

Oh, I have. The same person told me that I was really bisexual, I just hadn't met the right man. And the same applied to everyone. Imperialistic pansexuality... *shrug* Pansexuals can be jerks just like everybody else.

It would be interesting to know to what degree this is a reaction to the tendency among some people to pretend bisexuality doesn't exist. Thesis - antithesis - hysterics...

Eleanor_Rigby
2011-04-02, 06:35 AM
Is there a true distinction between bisexuality and pansexuality? *snip*

I've not seen anybody respond to this directly so I'll have a go. I'll stress first that I'm not an expert though.
If you think of the genders as sandwiches (bear with me here, please) say male is a peanut butter sandwich and female is a jelly sandwich then an intersex or trans person might be interpreted as a peanut butter and jelly sandwich... so a bisexual who wouldn't fall under the label of pansexual would be someone who likes peanut butter sarnies and jelly ones, but isn't keen on the two combined in various ratios (some would argue that's silly because everyone is a mix of the two gender traits and so that would be ruling out anyone but that's kind of splitting hairs: straight people do exist and so do gay people, so it follows that similar "distinctions" would probably occur even amongst bisexuals which is a pretty diverse group anyway what with some having roughly equal levels of attraction to both genders and others having a bias, etc).

Was that in any way helpful or just plain offensive? It's kind of a difficult area, trying to describe somebody else's way of thinking/feeling, particularly if it's almost pure guesswork.



My own problem with the word "pansexual" is that it makes me associate to someone who can be attracted to anything, Jack Harkness-style, rather than someone who can be attracted to anyone, which is how I understand it to be meant. But eh, I also have an irrational hatred for the word "queer", even f I don't feel any such hatred for people who fall outside established social norms wrt. gender and/or sexuality *shrug*

:smallredface:
Cap'n Harkness is indeed one of the reasons I don't care to describe myself as pansexual - it's a bit like how somebody on a phobias thread here explained they were xenophobic: the automatic assumptions people make when they here the word are quite far from the actual meaning of the word, so I'd probably want to explain it before using the word.
I don't know what the general consensus on Captain Jack/Torchwood is on these threads, personally I enjoyed his appearances on Doctor Who but found Torchwood generally to just be a bit... awkward. It sent a lot of messages that it probably didn't mean to that were less than helpful. Chiefly it tended towards helping the assumption that bisexual/pansexual = rampant slut.
I believe the actual handle Russell T. Davies prefers for Harkness though is "omnisexual" which deliberately encompasses other species.



Oh, I have. The same person told me that I was really bisexual, I just hadn't met the right man. And the same applied to everyone. Imperialistic pansexuality... *shrug* Pansexuals can be jerks just like everybody else.

It would be interesting to know to what degree this is a reaction to the tendency among some people to pretend bisexuality doesn't exist. Thesis - antithesis - hysterics...

I think I've looked in on threads with posts like these, possibly even this specific thread it's kind of déjà vu-esque anyhow. This wasn't Murphy's Law, was it? The Janine/Lloyd thing could have brought something like that up. Personally I'm inclined to think that this sort of reaction is just a consequence of it being difficult to understand something you yourself don't feel. I've gone through phases where I've thought "surely everyone must be at least a little bit bisexual" just because I am and didn't even really realise it so... I can sympathise with it but I think when I thought that I was mostly wrong. At the very least it's not something to push because it has a little bit too much in common with anti-gay arguments and that's not a direction I want to go down.

Which kind of reminds me of the time my Dad and I were watching "Born and Bred" and they did a storyline where a married guy turned out to be gay and my Dad just kept saying: "But just because he loves that man doesn't mean he's gay - he could be bisexual, so he should try harder with his wife because she loves him!" I had to explain to him a couple of times just how that really didn't work...
Assuming that everyone has the potential to love everyone can lead you down some awkward paths. (I don't think my dad was being an idiot thinking this because his upbringing means that his understanding of LGBT+ is very minimal, I did think it was something worth trying to explain to him though) The episode ended with the two gay characters eloping and the "beard" was still upset but had been talked round a bit - it's a "Sunday night viewing" show, the loose ends are usually all tied up terribly nicely

Oh and I don't remember if I mentioned it, but I'm totally with the people who struggle to understand how families like those of unosarta's buddies can do things like they do. I tend to just think that if his friend came out to her family they'd eventually come round to realising that there's nothing wrong with pansexuality. It saddens me when I realise that things just aren't always that fair in the real world. :smallfrown:

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-02, 07:41 AM
On the topic of bi/pansexuality, I prefer to think of bisexuality as a number line, a la the Kinsey scale, going from 0 to 6 in one direction, whereas pansexuality add's a second axis, turning it into an xy graph; x being the person's sex, y being the person's gender(I think that may be relative to the person's sex, but I can't remember exactly). I've seen arguments that you could expand that to an xyz graph, but I really can't remember the details to expand upon that, sorry.

So, my date for tomorrow got post-poned 'till wednesday because of mother's day being tomorrow. Argh.

Also, I've been wondering about this for a while, but how does everyone here feel about intergenational dating/relationships? The man I'm seeing is in his mid-thirties; nearly twice my age. Now, personally, this doesn't bother me as I've always prefered and have been with men age thirty and up, but how do others react to this kind of age difference? Does anyone else here have any experience with intergenerational relationships? Any pitfalls I should avoid, both short term and long term relationship-wise? The only thing I've noticed is that it's next to impossible to ask someone on a date because of the added "age difference" to "they might be straight", "they might not be interested", etc.

Asta Kask
2011-04-02, 07:57 AM
The question of bisexuality is made more difficult by the obstacles nature throws in our path. For instance, take a man who is only attracted to women, until he reaches age 30. Then he has a 30-years crisis and comes out of it only attracted to other men. Is he now homosexual? Or is he bisexual, because over his life span he has been attracted to men and women?

How attracted to men and women must a man be to count as bisexual? Does he have to want to have sex with them? Is it enough if he draws the line at 'heavy petting'? If he hugs men on a regular basis?

I don't think there are sharp borders here, which shouldn't surprise as in an area as murky as human sexuality. We'll just have to learn to live with a little ambiguity.

Anethiel
2011-04-02, 08:19 AM
News related to the topic of supportiveness of families: an Italian Juvenile Court just ruled that a homophobic father has to be conducted away, with the use of force if needed, from his homosexual adolescent son in order to prevent oppression. Crude translation of an Italian article (http://www.infooggi.it/articolo/piu-diritti-umani-e-tutela-dei-gay-allontanato-da-casa-il-padre-padrone-che-apostrofa-il-figlio/11595/) on the matter follows.

More human rights and protection of gays. Abusive father who insults son conducted away from home

Lecce, March 30th 2011 - The ruling explicitly prohibits any kind of discrimination, even the one from the abusive father that insults with "***" the homosexual adolescent son.
Allowed the use of public enforcement to conduct away from home the violent father for the purpose of protecting the gay boy.
It was established from the Juvenile Court of Milan with a decree on March 25th 2011, relator Gennaro Mastrangelo, who underlined the importance of the closeness of the father to the son in such a complex phase of adolescence as the one in which homosexuality is accepted.

The motivation of the ruling reads, moreover, that the man came to blows with the wife in many occasions and, in one of them, even hurt the boy.
He always declared to his family, among things, that he would never want to leave the habitation for any reason.
The judges, agreeing with the instances of the prosecution asking for a greater protection for the adolescent boy, ruled that, in case of obstinate opposition, the man will be conducted away by force.
According to the Court the measure of removal "while being severely afflictive is the only effective one and has to be put into effect with public enforcement if needed, because the father has not shown any sign of collaboration".
According to Giovanni D'Agata, member and founder of the Thematic Department "Rights Office" of Italy of Values, the ruling aims to repress family abuses and domestic violence against the women too, victim together with the gay son of severe abuses from the husband.

Lix Lorn
2011-04-02, 08:25 AM
Well done Italy! Have... a metaphorical hug?
(hugs Italy)

Skeppio
2011-04-02, 08:46 AM
Good job, Italy! :smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2011-04-02, 10:22 AM
The question of bisexuality is made more difficult by the obstacles nature throws in our path. For instance, take a man who is only attracted to women, until he reaches age 30. Then he has a 30-years crisis and comes out of it only attracted to other men. Is he now homosexual? Or is he bisexual, because over his life span he has been attracted to men and women?

Well, then he's 60 and old enough for the issue to be moot so the issue is pretty much academic by that point as far as the rest of us are concerned.

Combine with the fact that the closest current model we have is that of the closeted gay (possibly in denial) making it to about 30 and only coming out after having gotten married and produced offspring...


The idea is that the genitals a person has is an irrelevant piece of information when determining their attractiveness, everything else is still in play (appearance, personality, hobbies, etc.). It may be a more accurate term for most people who consider themselves bisexual, but the terms are definitively different in an important way.

Which is countered by the bit where the other three main sexuality terms are only expected to cover what sex or sexes one is attracted to with no moral or value judgements about why you're attracted to them, and that it's discriminatory, to say the least, to count trans individuals as either a separate sex unto themselves or two separate sexes based upon MtF vs. FtM, such that bisexuality automatically does not include them.

I'll grant that I've never heard anyone deal with the subject of obviously intersexed individuals in an intellectually satisfying manner.

As I've found it, the language generally chosen to differentiate pansexuals from bisexuals generally leads to perceptions of elitism, and possibly actual elitism, where pansexuals directly or indirectly accuse others of being less than them due to only being attracted to others with their eyes which leads to bad blood for various reasons, regardless of whether it was an intended consequence of the language that was used. Which is problematic, to say the least, in terms of PR.

Asta Kask
2011-04-02, 10:38 AM
Well, then he's 60 and old enough for the issue to be moot so the issue is pretty much academic by that point as far as the rest of us are concerned.

Combine with the fact that the closest current model we have is that of the closeted gay (possibly in denial) making it to about 30 and only coming out after having gotten married and produced offspring...

30-years crisis is a Swedish term for the crisis some people have when they reach 30 and discover they haven't conquered the world. It's like a midlife crisis but earlier.

Coidzor
2011-04-02, 10:45 AM
30-years crisis is a Swedish term for the crisis some people have when they reach 30 and discover they haven't conquered the world. It's like a midlife crisis but earlier.

Ahh. That did seem like a really long time to have an existential crisis. :smallredface:

Caustic Soda
2011-04-02, 11:29 AM
@Eleanor Rigby: Yeah, it seems that there is a tendency to assume that because someone could be attracted to anyone, they must therefore be attracted to everyone. Doesn't really make sens, so I have no idea how to deal with that assumption. I do think that Davies probably doesn't/didn't (is Torchwood still running?) mean it that way, though. i suppsoe the issue with bi-/pansexuality is to find a word that describes being attracted to most/all of the spectrum in a away that is both precise and concise. I haven't the foggiest idea what word you could use, though, so I'd just stick to bisexual myself. then again I'm monosexual, if you can say that, so it's not really my problem I suppose.


On the topic of bi/pansexuality, I prefer to think of bisexuality as a number line, a la the Kinsey scale, going from 0 to 6 in one direction, whereas pansexuality add's a second axis, turning it into an xy graph; x being the person's sex, y being the person's gender(I think that may be relative to the person's sex, but I can't remember exactly).


That makes a good deal of sense. It could also be applicable to monosexual people. Distinguishing between attraction to bears and twinks, for example. (Is twink a slur? and if so, is there a more appropriate word to use?) Of course, it doesn't help much in a conversation, since it'd be time-consuming to stop to draw/pull out a diagram for ones sexuality.

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-02, 12:04 PM
That makes a good deal of sense. It could also be applicable to monosexual people. Distinguishing between attraction to bears and twinks, for example. (Is twink a slur? and if so, is there a more appropriate word to use?) Of course, it doesn't help much in a conversation, since it'd be time-consuming to stop to draw/pull out a diagram for ones sexuality.

I don't think twink is a slur, and I know many people who don't treat it as such. I mean, it's just a body type, like bear. The fact that you'd would think it's a slur does fill me with an evil glee, however.:smallamused: And now I want to make graph's, diagrams and illustrations of formulae of my taste in men.:smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2011-04-02, 12:18 PM
That makes a good deal of sense. It could also be applicable to monosexual people. Distinguishing between attraction to bears and twinks, for example. (Is twink a slur? and if so, is there a more appropriate word to use?)

I've only ever seen it used as a slur or in personal ads full of obscenities, so I'm not sure one way or another, but I am dubious as to whether it's part of polite conversation. And we don't have a separate word for it in those cases, so that raises the question why it's needed here rather than there. Can't recall if there's an appropriate term though.

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-02, 01:00 PM
I've only ever seen it used as a slur or in personal ads full of obscenities, so I'm not sure one way or another, but I am dubious as to whether it's part of polite conversation. And we don't have a separate word for it in those cases, so that raises the question why it's needed here rather than there. Can't recall if there's an appropriate term though.

It strikes me as a rather informal term, but not impolite or explicitly offensive. Some guys might take offensive to being called it, sure, but it's like calling someone short/fat/stocky. It's a description of someone; a bodytype. Nothing more. Yes, people use it as an insult sometimes, but they also use things like short/fat/etc when they're not really insults in of themselves.

Also, was just in a gay chatroom there a few minutes ago, one guy starts talking to me, not saying anything other than one word, often mispelled. It sounded suspect, and when I called him out on it, his response(and subsequent responses and when I kept calling him out on his spoosh) was "ur fat". Seriously, at least try and come up with a better insult, idiot. Argh.:smallannoyed:(for context, I am a heavy guy, and my screen name reflects that.)

Keveak
2011-04-02, 01:08 PM
>_>
<_<

What's a Twink? Is it edible? Bears are edible, so I assume so but some people seem to think I shouldn't eat live animals larger than me.

I mean, I get that they may think I mean the big humans but I gotta steal the souls of something from time to time.

...

What are you all looking at me that way for?

golentan
2011-04-02, 01:16 PM
>_>
<_<

What's a Twink? Is it edible? Bears are edible, so I assume so but some people seem to think I shouldn't eat live animals larger than me.

I mean, I get that they may think I mean the big humans but I gotta steal the souls of something from time to time.

...

What are you all looking at me that way for?

I understand completely, my friend. I understand completely. *pats*

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-02, 01:17 PM
>_>
<_<

What's a Twink? Is it edible? Bears are edible, so I assume so but some people seem to think I shouldn't eat live animals larger than me.

I mean, I get that they may think I mean the big humans but I gotta steal the souls of something from time to time.

...

What are you all looking at me that way for?

...

Keveak; never, ever change. :smallbiggrin:

And yes, a twinkie is edible, but that's A)not what we're talking about, and B)is what we are talking about, but it's too dirty to go into detail.

Asta Kask
2011-04-02, 02:03 PM
Twinks are below level cap player characters who have gained the best powerful gear for their level with enhancements such as expensive weapon enchants, leg patches and BoE/BoP greens, blues or epics. Twinks are mainly used in PvP fighting and Battlegrounds. Twinks obtain their items through rare drops, drops off of bosses in instances, rewards from quests that are difficult to complete at their level, and from the Auction House. Twink items on the Auction House can be expensive and twink enchantments can only be performed by high-level characters. Therefore, twinking usually requires significant assistance from high-level alts, friends, and/or guild members. However, there are examples of self-made twinks that generate the necessary gold from Auction House trading or other in-game methods.

unosarta
2011-04-02, 02:09 PM
Twinks are below level cap player characters who have gained the best powerful gear for their level with enhancements such as expensive weapon enchants, leg patches and BoE/BoP greens, blues or epics. Twinks are mainly used in PvP fighting and Battlegrounds. Twinks obtain their items through rare drops, drops off of bosses in instances, rewards from quests that are difficult to complete at their level, and from the Auction House. Twink items on the Auction House can be expensive and twink enchantments can only be performed by high-level characters. Therefore, twinking usually requires significant assistance from high-level alts, friends, and/or guild members. However, there are examples of self-made twinks that generate the necessary gold from Auction House trading or other in-game methods.

I went to the latest post in this thread, and when I saw your post, Asta, I thought I went to the wrong thread. It was only to my great amusement that I found out that people were talking about actual twinks. Ah, good times.

Coidzor
2011-04-02, 02:13 PM
What's a Twink? Is it edible? Bears are edible, so I assume so but some people seem to think I shouldn't eat live animals larger than me.

Mostly it's considered impolite to eat another predator, especially if it'd be apex predator if not for you. Then there's the bit about trash bears and never eating those because of whatever toxins they've probably ingested from our waste.

But that's neither here or there as it's an impersonal term for men who are gay and hairy rather than hairless and effeminate, which is sort of weird that anyone would want to encourage an either-or dichotomy of gay gender roles like that.

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-02, 02:25 PM
Mostly it's considered impolite to eat another predator, especially if it'd be apex predator if not for you. Then there's the bit about trash bears and never eating those because of whatever toxins they've probably ingested from our waste.

But that's neither here or there as it's an impersonal term for men who are gay and hairy rather than hairless and effeminate, which is sort of weird that anyone would want to encourage an either-or dichotomy of gay gender roles like that.

I think you mixed up what he asking there, but here's a glossary of terms to help clear up any confusion, admitedly coming more from the beardom here.


Twink - gay guy in his late teens/eary twenties who's skinny and has little facial/body hair
Bear - A gay man, often aged 30 or above, who is larger framed and has facial and body hair.
Chaser—short for Chubby Chaser or a smooth guy who likes hairy men.
Chub—a heavy set gay man. May or may not be a bear (Chubby bear is a common term)
Cub—a younger (or younger looking) version of a Bear, typically but not always with a smaller frame.
Daddy bear—an older bear, sometimes looking for a daddy/son relationship with a younger man.
Otter - Similar to a bear but lacks body hair.
Panda bear—a bear of Asian descent.
Polar bear—a bear with grey/white/silver hair, body or otherwise.
Wolf - similar to a bear but often slimmer or smaller framed.



Shamelessly copied (and edited to fit my knowledge of the terms) from wikipedia. :smallwink:

Oh, and that's just the body types. I'm not really getting into the whole bear as a lifestyle thing.

unosarta
2011-04-02, 02:26 PM
^: That seems far too confusing for its intended use. :smallconfused:
Also, talk about creating body image problems...


But that's neither here or there as it's an impersonal term for men who are gay and hairy rather than hairless and effeminate, which is sort of weird that anyone would want to encourage an either-or dichotomy of gay gender roles like that.

Yeah, I don't really get why there needs to be a differentiating term. Seems like it either doesn't really do anything for the person, or that it creates extra confusion. Meh. :smallconfused:

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-02, 02:36 PM
^: That seems far too confusing for its intended use. :smallconfused:
Also, talk about creating body image problems...



Yeah, I don't really get why there needs to be a differentiating term. Seems like it either doesn't really do anything for the person, or that it creates extra confusion. Meh. :smallconfused:

Yeah, I don't really like it either, but the bigger something get's the more likely it's going to split into sub-groups which may or may not end up making sense, depending on the original group.

Also, why hasn't anyone discussed the inter-generational thing I brought up? :smallannoyed:

unosarta
2011-04-02, 02:46 PM
Yeah, I don't really like it either, but the bigger something get's the more likely it's going to split into sub-groups which may or may not end up making sense, depending on the original group.

Also, why hasn't anyone discussed the inter-generational thing I brought up? :smallannoyed:

True... however, it is said that 1/10 of the population is LGBT. I can't remember what percentage of that is Gay, but presumably it isn't tiny. Either way, you get that number times seven billion (possibly more, that is kind of an old figure). So, there is probably too large of a pool for it to be accurate for use as terminology. Meh.

Because I don't think someone's age should really play a part in how their love works; it just shouldn't really matter that much. FWIW.

Keveak
2011-04-02, 03:08 PM
I think it's fine for people to use identifiers within subcultures, especially as vague ones as sexual orientations or lack of same are. ^_^

It works for taste in music (I even have both great dislike and love for subgenres of the same underground genre) so why not taste in appearance? :smallsmile:

Also, If you're above sixteen I will care about as much about the age of the person you are in a relationship with as I care about the split hair of a Mastodon dancing to 'To the Bottom of the Sea', Miscast Mage.

Which is very little since I would probably focus more on complimenting it's taste in music and dancing along. :smalltongue:

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-02, 03:41 PM
Yes, I'm eighteen. But still, I was kind of hoping someone would mention the problems and complications of an intergenerational relationship/romance. Curse you all for being so supportive! >_<




I keed, I keed. You all know I loves ya.

Keveak
2011-04-02, 04:02 PM
Yes, I'm eighteen. But still, I was kind of hoping someone would mention the problems and complications of an intergenerational relationship/romance. Curse you all for being so supportive! >_<




I keed, I keed. You all know I loves ya.

You're trying to get people to comment on that on a gaming forum more concerned with whether a love interest sparkles than with their age?

We have half-elves, Dhampires and demigods, a few decades is about as relevant as the truth of pastry goods! :smalltongue:

unosarta
2011-04-02, 04:05 PM
You're trying to get people to comment on that on a gaming forum more concerned with whether a love interest sparkles than with their age?

We have half-elves, Dhampires and demigods, a few decades is about as relevant as the truth of pastry goods! :smalltongue:

I would say the truth of said pastry goods is probably more important than a few decades. Or all of time itself. >_>

Caustic Soda
2011-04-02, 04:19 PM
@Twinks + bears: The reason I asked if twink is a slur is because I've seen it used as both insult and descriptor, like gay, but have only come across bear as a descriptor.

The only real reason I see to distinguish between body type that I see is when discussing what one finds attractive. For example, I don't find being muscular all that attractive, but OTOH I find it gross when men shave their legs. I see no reason not to concieve of it as a continuum. I suppose you could also have them as "ideal types" but that's more relevant for research into body images than everyday life, IMO.

@Miscast_Mage: AFAIK there isn't anything inherently problematic with intergenerational relationships. It's likely to make a difference wrt. education, job experience, and the like but whether that's problematic depends on the case. My three siblings all have partners 8-10 years older than themselves, roughly, but I'm unaware of any problems there. It might make a difference with reproduction, but that's not really relevant in this case, is it :smallwink:?

Eleanor_Rigby
2011-04-02, 04:35 PM
Spoilered because I replied to a bunch of stuff at once. Mostly fairly light hearted comments.


News related to the topic of supportiveness of families: an Italian Juvenile Court just ruled that a homophobic father has to be conducted away, with the use of force if needed, from his homosexual adolescent son in order to prevent oppression. Crude translation of an Italian article (http://www.infooggi.it/articolo/piu-diritti-umani-e-tutela-dei-gay-allontanato-da-casa-il-padre-padrone-che-apostrofa-il-figlio/11595/) on the matter follows.


Good. The situation described in the article (or at least your translation, I'll confess I didn't look at the original Italian as I don't speak it) was nasty, for the gay teen and for his mother who seemed to be trying her best to support him. Glad action was taken there: success stories are nice.


Well, then he's 60 and old enough for the issue to be moot so the issue is pretty much academic by that point as far as the rest of us are concerned.

Combine with the fact that the closest current model we have is that of the closeted gay (possibly in denial) making it to about 30 and only coming out after having gotten married and produced offspring...

Whaaaaaaat?
People live on as people quite a while past age 60 you know, and romance isn't even ruled out then. :smallamused:
(But yeah, I'd rather not spend a long time thinking about the latter part of that statement either.:smallbiggrin:)


Which is countered by the bit where the other three main sexuality terms are only expected to cover what sex or sexes one is attracted to with no moral or value judgements about why you're attracted to them, and that it's discriminatory, to say the least, to count trans individuals as either a separate sex unto themselves or two separate sexes based upon MtF vs. FtM, such that bisexuality automatically does not include them.

I'll grant that I've never heard anyone deal with the subject of obviously intersexed individuals in an intellectually satisfying manner.

As I've found it, the language generally chosen to differentiate pansexuals from bisexuals generally leads to perceptions of elitism, and possibly actual elitism, where pansexuals directly or indirectly accuse others of being less than them due to only being attracted to others with their eyes which leads to bad blood for various reasons, regardless of whether it was an intended consequence of the language that was used. Which is problematic, to say the least, in terms of PR.

Whilst I realise the above doesn't describe all pansexuals by a long shot, the above scenario is one of my main reasons for preferring the term "bi" over "pan" when describing myself, although either one would be correct for me, I think.


30-years crisis is a Swedish term for the crisis some people have when they reach 30 and discover they haven't conquered the world. It's like a midlife crisis but earlier.

This is one of the words/phrases that Swedish/other foreign language has and English sadly lacks. Another thing the Swedes have which we don't and I envy is "ja" "nej" and "jo" we really ought to make up our own "jo" (I guess we've got "no, you're right..." but "jo" is so much more concise...)


Ahh. That did seem like a really long time to have an existential crisis. :smallredface:

I laughed at this exchange because it's totally the sort of thing I do all the time. Except I took Swedish for two years so I'm vaguely aware of the term anyhow.


@Eleanor Rigby: Yeah, it seems that there is a tendency to assume that because someone could be attracted to anyone, they must therefore be attracted to everyone. Doesn't really make sens, so I have no idea how to deal with that assumption. I do think that Davies probably doesn't/didn't (is Torchwood still running?) mean it that way, though. i suppsoe the issue with bi-/pansexuality is to find a word that describes being attracted to most/all of the spectrum in a away that is both precise and concise. I haven't the foggiest idea what word you could use, though, so I'd just stick to bisexual myself. then again I'm monosexual, if you can say that, so it's not really my problem I suppose.
(emphasis mine)

Technically, Torchwood isn't dead. It's being planned/written/filmed/produced/aired? at the moment as a coalition project between the original production team and an American production team called "Starz". I'm pretty sure it's not aired yet in the UK as I've seen nothing on it in the Radio Times bar the initial announcement that the way it was being made was going to change.
I agree that Davies probably had good intentions as far as bi/pansexuality goes when he was writing the series I'm just not enamoured with the execution, personally. It has a lot of bad connotations/ implications, for me at least.
I think I'm going to view "The Children of Earth" as the end of Torchwood for me and the rest as a sort of expansion unless it starts to overlap with Who again. I never liked Torchwood as much as Doctor Who and think The Sarah Jane Adventures is actually the superior spin off - seems to please more of the old school Who purists. It's not without its flaws either though and I've seen less of it since it's almost always mixed in with the kiddies shows. Sometimes the acting is worse than on Torchwood too, or at least, hammier.


It strikes me as a rather informal term, but not impolite or explicitly offensive. Some guys might take offensive to being called it, sure, but it's like calling someone short/fat/stocky. It's a description of someone; a bodytype. Nothing more. Yes, people use it as an insult sometimes, but they also use things like short/fat/etc when they're not really insults in of themselves.

That's quite a tidy explanation. Some people can get surprisingly angry about being called short or fat considering the straight forward nature of the words... I mean, neither is saying something most people can't see anyway - I guess the point is it's often/sometimes rude to actually point it out.


Also, was just in a gay chatroom there a few minutes ago, one guy starts talking to me, not saying anything other than one word, often mispelled. It sounded suspect, and when I called him out on it, his response(and subsequent responses and when I kept calling him out on his spoosh) was "ur fat". Seriously, at least try and come up with a better insult, idiot. Argh.:smallannoyed:(for context, I am a heavy guy, and my screen name reflects that.)

I appreciate that this is a tale of somebody being annoying/ pretty mean and all, but my main thought when reading this was: "was the word, 'perkele', because honestly, you probably should have anticipated that..." and then me imagining that scenario. If that had been the case then the guy would have been kinda funny. As it was though, yeah... weird internet jerk with no imagination.


Mostly it's considered impolite to eat another predator, especially if it'd be apex predator if not for you. Then there's the bit about trash bears and never eating those because of whatever toxins they've probably ingested from our waste.

But that's neither here or there as it's an impersonal term for men who are gay and hairy rather than hairless and effeminate, which is sort of weird that anyone would want to encourage an either-or dichotomy of gay gender roles like that.

The first thing that came to my mind when Keveak refered to bears being edible was Gummi Bears (the sweets, not the cartoon that seems to be "related" to half the videos on youtube), the second thing that came to mind was the bit in C.S Lewis's Prince Caspian where the gang ended up having to kill a non-talking bear and then wandered about with bits of raw bear meat in their pockets for ages (they eventually cooked and ate the meat). I wasn't aware of the terms to describe appearances of homosexual males until today.


I think you mixed up what he asking there, but here's a glossary of terms to help clear up any confusion, admitedly coming more from the beardom here.


Twink - gay guy in his late teens/eary twenties who's skinny and has little facial/body hair
Bear - A gay man, often aged 30 or above, who is larger framed and has facial and body hair.
Chaser—short for Chubby Chaser or a smooth guy who likes hairy men.
Chub—a heavy set gay man. May or may not be a bear (Chubby bear is a common term)
Cub—a younger (or younger looking) version of a Bear, typically but not always with a smaller frame.
Daddy bear—an older bear, sometimes looking for a daddy/son relationship with a younger man.
Otter - Similar to a bear but lacks body hair.
Panda bear—a bear of Asian descent.
Polar bear—a bear with grey/white/silver hair, body or otherwise.
Wolf - similar to a bear but often slimmer or smaller framed.



Shamelessly copied (and edited to fit my knowledge of the terms) from wikipedia. :smallwink:



But now I feel pretty knowlegeable.... But will never be able to see certain animals in quite the same way again. :smallbiggrin:


I think it's fine for people to use identifiers within subcultures, especially as vague ones as sexual orientations or lack of same are. ^_^

It works for taste in music (I even have both great dislike and love for subgenres of the same underground genre) so why not taste in appearance? :smallsmile:


I'm somewhat into linguistics so words that classify things are interesting to me. So are words in general.


Also, If you're above sixteen I will care about as much about the age of the person you are in a relationship with as I care about the split hair of a Mastodon dancing to 'To the Bottom of the Sea', Miscast Mage.

Which is very little since I would probably focus more on complimenting it's taste in music and dancing along. :smalltongue:

...See... I didn't reply to this because I'm not always completely 100% comfortable with intergenerational relationships myself but don't have enough knowledge of them to say much of any use.
For me the age where it stops bothering me too much is probably 21. At 16-21 you're legal in most areas (I think?) but you're still so young that the differences between you and people older than you are likely to be gulfs apart in terms of experience and this can cause problems. It doesn't always - but I think it's more of an issue when the younger party is under 21. The thing is though that everybody matures at different rates so, yeah, age isn't the be all and end all. It's just I think the gaps seem bigger the younger the youngest person is, it's kind of like a percentages of the partners' lifetimes deal. The main actual example of an intergenerational relationship that I have experience with and that didn't work out would be my cousin from around the age of 16 and a guy in his twenties. They kept dating until she was ...probably at least 20 herself, so in many ways it was succesful and I don't think she regrets it but there were a lot of problems as far as them and her parents went, and she got carried away with "being in love" and decided to forget about studying (this was my cousin's problem, not one I'm saying all intergenerational relationships would have). Despite the fact that the boyfriend wanted to be completely open with my cousin's parents by the time the two had broken up the parents blamed him entirely for my cousin failing a bunch of her exams and having more than one false start when it came to university - I don't, but they did. I think if you're still living with your folks (which at 18 you may not be) then it's probably a good idea to be open(ish) with them about your relationships and the age of your romantic partner, they almost definitely won't like it, but if you want to avoid rifts and long term arguments it's probably best that the age of your older partner is common knowledge (my cousin pretended her boyfriend was about six years younger than he was and when her parents found out they weren't happy)
Posted because you seemed pretty keen for some sort of VOICE OF DOOM. Generally I'd have kept my nose out of it because I think that sort of thing is up to the couple in question and it doesn't actually matter if it "makes me feel uncomfortable". :smallredface: (As long as there's consent on both sides of course)


Edited to Add:

This reflects my views quite well:


Miscast_Mage: AFAIK there isn't anything inherently problematic with intergenerational relationships. It's likely to make a difference wrt. education, job experience, and the like but whether that's problematic depends on the case. My three siblings all have partners 8-10 years older than themselves, roughly, but I'm unaware of any problems there. It might make a difference with reproduction, but that's not really relevant in this case, is it ?

But with the added "tread carefully" caution for under 21s. It's very much an "every case is different" kind of thing though, to really make a judgement I'd have to know both individuals fairly well so I can't say much at all about your own situation even taking your age and that of your prospective partner into account.

golentan
2011-04-02, 05:20 PM
Miscast Mage: Since you asked, I feel that intergenerational romance is a minefield of potential pratfalls waiting for the unsuspecting, and that you should seriously consider the long term compatibility and physical and emotional implications of dating someone who may have little common cultural ground with and who has (for whatever reason) not already pair bonded or may be looking to replace a lost pair bond in a manner unfair to one or both of you. Intergenerational dating is by itself a red flag for a number of negative behavior archetypes and simple physical and emotional hurdles, which need to be carefully weighed.

Note that this often blatantly hypocritical advice comes from someone whose entire pool of eligible dates are people less than 0.1% of his age. Also, please note that if you have already considered these risks and/or are simply looking for a bit of... I think you phrased it ~aahn ~aahn? rather than a long term partnership that most of this is inapplicable. But lines can and do get blurred, and you as a young and statistically probably foolish member of a young and foolish species may not have considered all the dangers involved or be putting off considering because they are a mere 2-4 decades in the future (which goes by like that! Like THAT!). And I feel you should weigh them while making decisions.

Murdim
2011-04-02, 05:36 PM
About the whole pansexuality thing. As long as the person who is using it isn't trying to redefine bisexuality so that it and their pet qualifier can be mutually exclusive, I'm fine with it. I just don't understand why people still expect labels to describe their sexuality in a satisfactory way.

Also, aren't Twinks those blue-skinned aliens from Star Wars with two weird tentacle-tail-hair-things on the back of their head ?


Also, why hasn't anyone discussed the inter-generational thing I brought up? :smallannoyed:
This is bad and you should feel bad. M'kay ?

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-02, 05:48 PM
Heh, thanks guys. I am being cautious about this, not because of the age specifically, but because of the idea of dating in general. I think the lesson to learn here is to err on the side of caution, but really, I already carry that lesson with me 24/7.:smallbiggrin: Thanks guys, I feel a lot better just.. I don't know, getting that off my chest.

Pre-post edit:
Thank's for the advice, golentan. I'm trying to keep my eyes open for these pitfalls, so hopefully I can avoid them or deal with them when they arise. Really, this is more a physical thing, though I am open to relationship should the opportunity arise. So thank you for the advice.

And you shush, Murdim.:smalltongue: And it's twi'leks you're thinking of. Shame on you.

Murdim
2011-04-02, 06:28 PM
And it's twi'leks you're thinking of. Shame on you.
Nah. Twi'leks are from Doctor Who, they are Nazi robot aliens bent on EXTERMINATEing every other lifeform in the universe.

Thufir
2011-04-02, 06:39 PM
Nah. Twi'leks are from Doctor Who, they are Nazi robot aliens bent on EXTERMINATEing every other lifeform in the universe.

No, you're thinking of Daleks. Miscast Mage is correct.

Lyesmith
2011-04-02, 07:00 PM
pansexual is one of those words that hikes up my innate skepticism. Along with the 'cis' words, don't recall 'em just now. Actually quite a lot of the words associated with LGBT make me raise an innter eybrow. Is this common, or am I just too cynical about the whole affair?

Caustic Soda
2011-04-03, 03:44 AM
@Murdim: the Star Wars thing made me laugh, that made for a nice start to my day :smallsmile:

@Lyesmith: I don't know if tis common, but a lot of words created by the LGBT do make me "raise my inner eyebrow" (nice phrasing BTW). OTOH at most they seem a little silly, and not hateful like [british cigarette] or the like.

Serpentine
2011-04-03, 04:15 AM
Have you actually met someone who behaves like this?Yes.

Anyways, it's a difficult concept to understand so they may have just explained it badly.It has been discussed at length.

You're misunderstanding the concept as well. The idea is that the genitals a person has is an irrelevant piece of information when determining their attractiveness, everything else is still in play (appearance, personality, hobbies, etc.).So how is that any different to heterosexuals who choose their partners based on those same things without any concious attention to the genitals of their biologically-preferred opposite sex? I find the implication that the difference between "pansexuals" and "bisexuals" is that the former choose their partners based on personality etc., while the latter are all about the genitals etc. offensive, and just as pretentious and with the same substance as hetero(/homo)sexuals who talk about how they're "attracted to minds, not mere looks"

It may be a more accurate term for most people who consider themselves bisexual, but the terms are definitively different in an important way.I definitively disagree.

On the topic of bi/pansexuality, I prefer to think of bisexuality as a number line, a la the Kinsey scale, going from 0 to 6 in one direction, whereas pansexuality add's a second axis, turning it into an xy graph; x being the person's sex, y being the person's gender(I think that may be relative to the person's sex, but I can't remember exactly). I've seen arguments that you could expand that to an xyz graph, but I really can't remember the details to expand upon that, sorry.Again: does this mean that we need a brand new term to distinguish between men who like butch women and those who prefer them feminine?
As far as I'm concerned, sexualities describe the categories of people their members are attracted to, not why they're attracted to them. Both bisexuals and pansexuals are defined as people who like boys, girls, and anything else, therefore they're the same sexuality - albeit that the latter might incorporate the "anything else" more readily than bisexual, a merely semantic issue.

I think "cis" is pretty much just a useful shorthand for pronounedly complex discussions.

Vaynor
2011-04-03, 04:54 AM
Yes.

That's unfortunate.


So how is that any different to heterosexuals who choose their partners based on those same things without any concious attention to the genitals of their biologically-preferred opposite sex? I find the implication that the difference between "pansexuals" and "bisexuals" is that the former choose their partners based on personality etc., while the latter are all about the genitals etc. offensive, and just as pretentious and with the same substance as hetero(/homo)sexuals who talk about how they're "attracted to minds, not mere looks"

Did you come to this conclusion from the contents of my post? Because in my post, the part you quoted directly above this section, I state the contrary. I'd also like to point out that heterosexual people do choose their partners, not based on, but considering, their genitals. Moving on to the next part, I make no such claim. I specifically state that appearance and personality, as well as a myriad of other things, just like everyone else, are important in determining attraction, but the type of genitals they possess is a non-issue. I find it hard to believe you came to these conclusions pertaining to pansexuality from the contents of my post, and, if you don't mind me assuming as such, I wonder why you quoted me in your response. You're accusing an entire group of people as being pretentious, which, frankly, is uncalled for. This is exactly what I meant when I said your comments offended me. I agree completely that the terms are very similar, and that the distinction might be a small one, but please don't impugn my (and others') ability to make such a distinction, especially one that relates so intrinsically to one's sense of self. I think that an analogy is called for at this point, but I can't think of one that wouldn't be offensive (a point I believe to be relevant to this discussion).


I definitively disagree.

When I say definitively, I mean according to their definition. If you're choosing to define the terms differently from everyone else, feel free, but please don't argue against the mainstream definition from the point of view of your own.

Serpentine
2011-04-03, 05:10 AM
Neither is attracted exclusively or primarily to only one sex. As far as I'm concerned, just exactly why that is is completely irrelevant, and trying to distinguish between those who like people for everything + genitals from those who like people for everything - genitals is insulting, misleading and fundamentally meaningless. I believe my connection to people who say things like "I like girls for their personalities, not for their looks", with the implication that everyone else is the opposite or something, is apt.
To go back to my usual example, this distinction presumably means that a man who likes the boobs and vajayjay as well as everything else about his women is meaningfully different to a man who likes a particular combination of personality, interests and so on that just so happens to exclusively occur in women. In my opinion, they're both heterosexual men. Simple as that, no difference requiring the creation of a whole new sexuality.

rayne_dragon
2011-04-03, 11:17 AM
On Pansexuality vs Bisexuality

First of all, I feel that gender and sexuality are (or at least should be) self-determined. For all that it is any of our business, someone can start calling theirself a quattrosexual and none of us have any right to tell them they can't be one. We can helpfully point out that we don't know what such a term means, ask them to explain it or why they chose it, and suggest that it might be easier to find a partner if they identify as a more commonly known sexuality; but we should not tell them that there is no such thing as a quattrosexual and that they can't be one. I realize that this puts a crimp in our scientific urges to classify people in a neat, easily understood way, but there are things on which human rights issues trump scientific reasoning.

Next pansexual does have a recognized definition as does bisexuality. Most self-identified bisexuals probably meet the definition of pansexuality, but there is no garuntee that they do. It is perfectly possible for a bisexual to decide that, for whatever reason, the idea of being with a transperson, intersexed individual, or genderqueer person does not appeal to them, while still liking cisgendered men and women (the "cis-" prefix being essentially the opposite of "trans-", since people seem to be asking about this term as well). I have yet to know of such a person, but it is hard for me to imagine that they don't exist somewhere.

Now maybe it seems kinda pointless to distinguish between bi and pan on such a small point, but to someone like me who doesn't fit neatly into "male" or "female" it does make an appreciable difference. If I were to date someone gay or straight I would have to worry about what they felt about my condition. If I were to date someone who was bi, I would be more comfortable because I know they'll probably be okay with my condition, but I would still worry about if their reaction a little because I wouldn't know if they'd ever considered how they would feel about someone like me. A pansexual on the other hand is claiming that they have thought about how they would feel about someone like me and I would be very comfortable dating one since my condition should be something they know they will be accepting of.

Also, because there seems to be something of a "for the most part it doesn't make any difference, so who cares?" attitude about pansexuality, I'd like to remind everyone that for the most part people are straight and cisgendered so even if it doesn't make any difference to you, kindly allow the distinction to exist for those of us for whom it is important or worth consideration.

Now as for one final point: I am aware of the attitude that some have that "I like a person for who they are, not for what type of reproductive organs they have." I feel it needs to be pointed out that this is not a distinction between bisexual and pansexual; both bi and pan folk use this statement as a distinction between theirselves and monosexual orientations. I can see Serp's point about it being condescending, but at the same time it also feels like crap to have someone say "I wish you were a boy/girl so I could go out with you" or "you're not woman/man enough for me." Of course, there's only one difference between those kind of statements and "I don't date people that tall/short" and "I only date (insert skin colour or ethnic group here) people" so I don't know what else to say about it either way (especially since the last thing I want to do is tell everyone they have to be bi/pansexual (as per my first point)).

Serpentine
2011-04-03, 11:27 AM
That's all well written, but to continue my questioning:
It is perfectly possible for a bisexual to decide that, for whatever reason, the idea of being with a transperson, intersexed individual, or genderqueer person does not appeal to them, while still liking cisgendered men and women (the "cis-" prefix being essentially the opposite of "trans-", since people seem to be asking about this term as well).Does that mean that a man who is willing to date both cis- and transexual women and anyone else along those lines who meets his own definition of "female" is meaningfully different, and therefore requiring a new sexuality category, to a man who is only interested in ciswomen?
If we're gonna divide up pansexuals and bisexuals on that basis, then surely we ought to divide up the other sexualities on that same basis.

Dire Moose
2011-04-03, 11:45 AM
I've never really gotten the difference between "pan" and "bi" either. While I understand that pansexuals may be attracted to transsexuals while bisexuals are not (and thus I would be better described as pan in that case), I highly doubt that the majority of people identifying as bisexual are only attracted to cisgendered people.

Personally, I identify as bisexual rather than pansexual because more people are familiar with the former term and I don't need to explain myself as much.

Dogmantra
2011-04-03, 11:59 AM
Personally, I identify as bisexual rather than pansexual because more people are familiar with the former term and I don't need to explain myself as much.

See, I specifically say "pansexual" so that people become familiar with the term. It doesn't need much explanation at all.

rayne_dragon
2011-04-03, 12:24 PM
That's all well written, but to continue my questioning:Does that mean that a man who is willing to date both cis- and transexual women and anyone else along those lines who meets his own definition of "female" is meaningfully different, and therefore requiring a new sexuality category, to a man who is only interested in ciswomen?
If we're gonna divide up pansexuals and bisexuals on that basis, then surely we ought to divide up the other sexualities on that same basis.

That is a good question.

My answer, based on my first point, is that making a distinction between trans- and cis-women is a little offensive and that as both are equally women we don't need to divide sexualities up along those particular lines. Of course, given the particular difficulties transfolk face individual definiations of gender are likely to complicate things somewhat there - which is why such distinctions might make a difference to transfolk as well.

What it more comes down to is do the other sexualities wish to try to make some distinction for those who don't fit into the gender binary. I'd love for some straight people to make a distinction between straight-inclusive (of genderqueer and intersex people) or straight-exclusive (to ciswomen only). That way I would know which straight people would be accepting of me and which would shy away and I have to guess at which ones won't freak out based on other, less obvious, cues.

But I think it comes down to individual choice. It means that people of the other sexualities need to see a reason to make such a distinction and to make it known. But I don't think it will be likely simply because the people who don't fit into the gender binary are relatively rare and only because of the similarly small percentage of bisexuals do we even see such a distinction made. Plus most of the ones who make such a distinction, in my experiences, tend to be ones who are more connected with trans or intersexed communities.

Dire Moose - I'd just like to say I think that's a perfectly valid reason to choose to identify as bi rather than pan. I would actually like it to turn out that all bisexuals are essentially pansexual and that the term turns out to be redundant. Both bi and pan are new enough terms that I don't think it is certainly clear yet, but as I have said, I don't think every bisexual is accepting of every varience of gender given the amount of varience in human sexuality even though it seems clear that the majority are.

Coidzor
2011-04-03, 03:06 PM
I think it's fine for people to use identifiers within subcultures, especially as vague ones as sexual orientations or lack of same are. ^_^

It works for taste in music (I even have both great dislike and love for subgenres of the same underground genre) so why not taste in appearance? :smallsmile:

Because it's not taste in appearance that's being objected to, Keveak. It's an insistence that to be part of gay culture, a man who is naturally hairy either has to take special efforts to fit in with X group or he has to act a certain way in order to be part of Y group. Or a shorter, thinner built man has to act in another way. That kind of gender role pigeonholing based entirely upon the vagaries of how someone's body has been naturally formed is... suspicious, considering the kind of gender roles that have in the past tried to be externally imposed upon gay culture and been resisted.


Yes, I'm eighteen. But still, I was kind of hoping someone would mention the problems and complications of an intergenerational relationship/romance. Curse you all for being so supportive! >_<

Don't let yourself get abused or taken advantage of. What's more to be said when tangling with an older, more established lover from a weaker position? You've had to have already encountered negative feedback judging either of you already, so it doesn't really bear repeating.

Viera Champion
2011-04-03, 03:09 PM
Because it's not taste in appearance that's being objected to, Keveak. It's an insistence that to be part of gay culture, a man who is naturally hairy either has to take special efforts to fit in with X group or he has to act a certain way in order to be part of Y group. Or a shorter, thinner built man has to act in another way. That kind of gender role pigeonholing based entirely upon the vagaries of how someone's body has been naturally formed is... suspicious, considering the kind of gender roles that have in the past tried to be externally imposed upon gay culture and been resisted.

Please tell me that we aren't talking about "bears".

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-03, 03:27 PM
Oddly enough, beardom as a lifestyle is the complete opposite of that; refusing to be effeminate or changing you're personality because of your sexual orientation. Of course, this varies depending on who you ask, which makes things a pain when there's people who have definitions different than others(also why I think i'll stay away from the bi/pan topic for now).

Coidzor
2011-04-03, 03:32 PM
^:By being forced to react against something, one is just as pigeonholed for reasons of solidarity. Especially en masse with all of the evolutions of things past that initial phase.
Please tell me that we aren't talking about "bears".

We were to a certain extent earlier up on this last page and the bottom of the page before that, and then I lost internet for about a day and contributed my explanation to Keveak about why there was an issue in the first place, since it seemed to have failed to communicate it clearly the first time around.


While I understand that pansexuals may be attracted to transsexuals while bisexuals are not

See, extending that kind of value judgment as a matter of course just seems... wrong somehow. And makes the person who came up with that definition risk seeming like they were the ones biased against transsexual individuals, by defining them as neither male or female but something else. :smallannoyed:

Kneenibble
2011-04-03, 03:48 PM
For my own erosophical curiosity, Miscastium, why do you prefer such older men?

Lyesmith
2011-04-03, 03:55 PM
Ah, the whole bear/twink debacle.

It's really rather a fascinating topic. Does anyone know any papers or the like on it? I mean, it's a significant enough part of pop-culture that freinds who believe they posess insight into such matters have attempted to classify me.

"You'll have to act like more of an uke if you want to attract a bearish guy, Lyes!" - I trollface'd.

Coidzor
2011-04-03, 03:58 PM
"You'll have to act like more of an uke if you want to attract a bearish guy, Lyes!" - I trollface'd.

That's... pretty horrible. :smallyuk:

Lyesmith
2011-04-03, 04:13 PM
That's... pretty horrible. :smallyuk:

I know! I was genuinely shocked speechless for a good couple of seconds.

Frozen_Feet
2011-04-03, 04:36 PM
I haven't seen any papers on the specific subject, but here's few bits of extrapolation based on tangentially related subjects:

About the Uke/Seme relationship: in some parts of the world, esp. Japan, gender roles are deeply ingrained in society - so deeply that they transcend physical sex. Being attracted to your own gender is not the actual crime - breaking gender roles, and thus form of tradition, is.

Because of this, in popular culture even same-sex couples are forced to obey gender roles. To fulfil aesthetics of tradition, one party must assume the feminine, and other the masculine role. Ukes are really girls in disguise, as I've heard someone say.

About attraction to different types of men: based on a theory I've read, I believe sexuality and behaviour is a spectrum based on how feminine or masculine some parts of the brain are. An effeminate straight guy, for example, has feminine behavioural protocol but masculine couple-forming protocol. A bear gay man has masculine behavioral protocol but feminine couple-forming protocol. A twink is somewhere between or to the side of them - both effeminate in behaviour and desire for partner.

On average, I believe gay men are suspect to desire manly men, just like straight women desire manly men. However, straight women tend to favor effeminate men for long-term relationships, as they're percieved as more faithful. Culture is also a big factor - for example, currently in Japan ideal for male appearance is androgynous and thin.

So I suspect the bear / twink division is based on variant of the same phenomenom. On one hand, gay men want manly men, so many gays are drawn to appearing macho (bears). On the other, some gays are naturally effeminate while culture encourages them to fit a certain mold (twinks). How's that for a theory?

Coidzor
2011-04-03, 05:50 PM
About the Uke/Seme relationship: in some parts of the world, esp. Japan, gender roles are deeply ingrained in society - so deeply that they transcend physical sex. Being attracted to your own gender is not the actual crime - breaking gender roles, and thus form of tradition, is.

Because of this, in popular culture even same-sex couples are forced to obey gender roles. To fulfil aesthetics of tradition, one party must assume the feminine, and other the masculine role. Ukes are really girls in disguise, as I've heard someone say.

Mostly it's what's usually done to the Uke by convention in the stories about them, since there's only a certain subset of the population in a western society that would use that term. And so they'd be speaking from a perspective colored by those stories.

As for your theory... Certainly I could accept it as a contributing factor, I can't really ignore the examples of peer pressure and societal expectations that I've encountered so far.

SMEE
2011-04-03, 09:24 PM
To all those who sent anonymous email during the last few days, know that I will post them tomorrow night.

Jacklu
2011-04-03, 09:25 PM
Thank you Smee. I was coming here to check that you hadn't already and say the same thing. Actually, I might post one or two tonight.

Okay, the first two have some content that might not be board appropriate so I will leave it to the lovely Smee to decide on them, but I will post these two for now:


So this is more a Relationship Woes and Advice but seeing as they don't have
an anonymous mailer I'm posting it via Smeenet.

So I'm recently in a relationship, my first ever, and I'm deeply afraid that
I don't actually have feelings for him. And that I'm only pretending to. I
care that he is happy but he doesn't makes me happy besides being someone
for me to make happy. And I find myself hoping more and more that he will
dump me. So that I'm no longer in a relationship, but that I haven't had to
hurt him myself.
The relationship is also already physical. And I get less enjoyment out of
it than that I get just with myself. So I'm starting to think I'm most
likely asexual, because he's gorgeous. And if he doesn't do anything for me,
I doubt anyone will.
So now I'm wondering if I just don't have any real feelings. And only have
pretended to have them so far. But that pretending the feeling on is
suppose to have in a relationship is just too much for me. I might be a
sociopath, but one that only cares about others, because to me nothing
matters.

These are just my thoughts written out, which is why they are so random and
redundant . I also don't know if one can give me advice with this.


(Anonymous because there are people on this forum who know my username)

A close friend came out to me a few days ago. I'm only the second person
who knows, the first being one of his siblings. I've always supported LGBT
rights and I shouldn't be so suprised anyways because he was dropping hints
over the last year, but I'm thrown off a lot more than I thought I would
be... Any advice on being supportive for him?

Half-jokingly, is there a tactful way to ask and make sure this wasn't an
extremely tasteless April Fool's joke? I hadn't even thought of the date
until I got home that day :P

I apologize to those that sent emails and might have felt ignored. I have been very busy and have been neglecting the Giant forums. _(_ _)_ My sincerest apologies.

Coidzor
2011-04-03, 10:05 PM
Anonymous Person 1:
So I'm recently in a relationship, my first ever, and I'm deeply afraid that I don't actually have feelings for him. And that I'm only pretending to. I care that he is happy but he doesn't makes me happy besides being someone for me to make happy. And I find myself hoping more and more that he will dump me. So that I'm no longer in a relationship, but that I haven't had to hurt him myself.

Ok, at that point, you need to just break things off, because if he finds out this has been how you've felt it's just going to hurt him more in the long run when it comes out after keeping up a charade for months or even a year. And you're doing yourself no favors either in being too afraid of learning how to end a relationship while minimizing damage to yourself and your now-former partner.

It's a life skill you have to learn sooner or later if you're going to date.


The relationship is also already physical. And I get less enjoyment out of it than that I get just with myself. So I'm starting to think I'm most likely asexual, because he's gorgeous. And if he doesn't do anything for me, I doubt anyone will.

Alright, first of all, that's a flawed line of reasoning you're working from, whether he's beautiful does not necessarily mean that you're asexual for not enjoying him in particular sexually. Also, such things are generally more enjoyable with ourselves than with others because of the whole nervous system thing.


So now I'm wondering if I just don't have any real feelings. And only have pretended to have them so far. But that pretending the feeling on is suppose to have in a relationship is just too much for me. I might be a sociopath, but one that only cares about others, because to me nothing matters.

Ok, you're probably not a sociopath if you're worrying about it this much. Plus, y'know, you're probably not a sociopath. Wondering if you actually had any real feelings to begin with is pretty much par for the course for when you're thinking about ending your first ever relationship regardless of your sex or sexuality.

edit: Most of all though, don't panic, and remember nothing you do here is gonna be the end of the world.

Anonymous Person 2: Well, the real question is, would your friend continue to troll you after April Fool's day was long over?

If he would, maybe you should reconsider the friendship if he's willing to troll you in this manner. I would assume that he merely had no tact or was trying to cop out and get out of the wrong people taking him seriously while expecting everyone else to take him seriously at the same time.

You can just ask him about how his family took him coming out of the closet as a relatively safe topic and you'll know he's playing it seriously, which just leaves the question of long-term trolling... Which seems far-fetched to say the least.

golentan
2011-04-04, 12:56 AM
Anonymous 1: Recommendation 1) End it. If you don't want actively to be in a relationship, only bad things will come of remaining in it. Breaking up with someone doesn't make you a bad person. And neither does not enjoying sex, or not feeling the way you are "supposed to." If anything, you seem to be approaching it backwards (you are "supposed to" get involved in such things because you have the feelings, not have the feelings because you are "supposed to" while involved) and even then note my use of air quotes. :smallsigh:

Also, having spent much time with sociopaths stop calling yourself that. It's not cool.

Anonymous 2: I advocate asking "hey, was that an april fools joke?" And offering support as needs arise as a friend rather than going "OMG must provide logistical aid now that you're gay!" Unless that's the sort of thing you'd do anyway for any such situation or revelation into his character.

I am as sharp as a hammer when it comes to social bluntness, so you may wish to take that with a grain of salt.

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-04, 07:22 AM
For my own erosophical curiosity, Miscastium, why do you prefer such older men?

I'm not quite sure more than anyone else thinking about their own preferences, though it's actually quite interesting to look at one's tastes and preferences and wonder why they're the way they are. It's almost cleansing, in a way, to think about the reasons and what fors. If I had to guess at the sub-concious reasons, I suppose it would be because I see middle aged men as an ideal, of sorts. I'm still afraid of much of the "grown-up" world(hooray for social anxieties:smallsigh:), and I think of men who have dealt with these problems and have gotten past them as something I should strive to be. I think the rest just kind of fits itself to the typical(well, romanticised/fantasised/whatever to some degree) middle-aged man.

I also resent most of the people my age as most of them I know or have to deal with are mind-killing idiots(yes, this may be true regardless of age, but this is just what I've come across in my experience). I think that I'm holding a false ideal of the maturity and such of older men, but still, I want to at least try and verify that one way or another before I make a judgement on it.

Hmm, I remember having this better laid out in my head, but I think that's everything important.:smallwink:

Anonymous 1:
I agree with Golentan. It sounds like an unhappy relationship, and I think the guy you're seeing deserves to know that you're unhappy about it. Don't feel ashamed about not enjoying the sex, it just means that he's not the right person for you, and that's okay. Having recently come out of a similar relationship myself, I think you should be active about this; don't just wait and hope he dumps you. Chances are, it'll just end up more painful for both of you. It might hurt him and possibly you as well to break it off in one motion, but it's ultimately for the best.

Anonymous 2:
I think you should just directly ask him. Yes, it's as blunt as a sledgehsmmer to the face. He might be offended at first if he was serious, but I think that if you explain your doubts to him in a calm, friendly manner, he'll understand and you'll both feel better having cleared up the confusion. If you don't want to just dive into the topic directly, maybe try asking him what type of guys he likes or some such question, and jokingly put out the fact that you're not 100% sure about his orientation.

Note that I'm probably not the best person in the world to get advice from, so I'd recommend a second opinion or three to balance this against and contemplate what the best course of action is for yourselves.

Frozen_Feet
2011-04-04, 08:35 AM
Miscast_Mage, some food for thought concerning your preferences:

How old is your dad? It's been proven that straight women are attracted to men who resemble their fathers to some extent, so maybe part of the same phenomenom is in play here? For example, women whose fathers were old when they got them often like older men.

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-04, 08:57 AM
Miscast_Mage, some food for thought concerning your preferences:

How old is your dad? It's been proven that straight women are attracted to men who resemble their fathers to some extent, so maybe part of the same phenomenom is in play here? For example, women whose fathers were old when they got them often like older men.

He's in his mid forties. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's the case. Although, my mam was in an accident when I was little(about 8 or so? I'm kind of fuzzy on the exact age), and my dad does most of the looking-after and such around the house now, so that could have some influence. Then again, getting into freudian pyschology and reasoning is all good fun, but you have to keep in mind that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.:smallwink:

And personally, the thought of my dad related to even-slightly-naughtiness is a squick factor, so I'm not sure how that factors into the reasoning of my daddybear-hunting.

cycoris
2011-04-04, 09:16 AM
Anon 1:

Not to sound like a broken record here, but you should at the very least talk to this guy. You should really at least let him know about your feelings/lack of feelings, because it's probably not going to make either of you happy in the long term if you keep stringing him along.

On possibly being asexual, I'm not sure if you should be so quick to label yourself that way just because you don't find one "gorgeous" guy attractive. Just because society labels someone as conventionally "pretty" or "handsome" doesn't mean that all or even most people find them attractive. It may be that he's not the kind of person you find attractive. And even if you would find him attractive otherwise, the fact that he's not doing much for you emotionally (I may be jumping to conclusions here, but that seems to be the case from what you described in your letter) might be making him less attractive to you. I'm not saying you're not asexual, but that you probably shouldn't jump to too many conclusions if it's just based on this one case.

Anon 2:

I'd advise asking this friend of yours straight out if he was coming out as a joke. I don't know what they came out to you as (L, G, B, T, or some combination of the above), but if it's somewhere in the T* spectrum asking about pronouns might be appreciated. Otherwise, just be generally nice/considerate/friend-ish/whatever.

Oh, and you might want to double check to see who they're out to and how closeted they want to stay, and please please PLEASE respect it if they want you to not out them to their family/colleagues/whatnot.

Frozen_Feet
2011-04-04, 09:30 AM
Then again, getting into freudian pyschology and reasoning is all good fun, but you have to keep in mind that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.:smallwink:

And personally, the thought of my dad related to even-slightly-naughtiness is a squick factor, so I'm not sure how that factors into the reasoning of my daddybear-hunting.

That's because Freud was wrong, and Westermarck was right. XD Children below a certain age imprint with their close ones as "family", and to avoid biological pratfalls they never consider family members in a sexual manner afterwards.

However, while no-one healthy lusts after their parents, they still look after partners that resemble their parents, unless they had very bad experiences with their parents in which case they tend to avoid reminescent qualities.

Think of it this way: if attraction is even partly genetic, it makes a degree of sense that if a mother is attracted to hunky men, so is her daughter. The father being a hunky man is... related, but tangential issue. XD

On nurture side of things, if you had good relations with your parents, you're likely to associate qualities of your parents with good relations. It might be largely sub-conscious, but it's there. If your father was a kindly, loving person, you're more likely to consider someone who looks like your dad a kindly, loving person as well. :smallwink:

Serpentine
2011-04-04, 09:37 AM
The explanation I've heard goes like this: the fact that you exist means that your father/mother was a successful breeder. You want a mate who is also a successful breeder, and you have on hand a figure who is established as such, therefore they act as a model for what you look for in a mate of your own.

Drfaust
2011-04-04, 10:16 AM
That's because Freud was wrong, and Westermarck was right. XD Children below a certain age imprint with their close ones as "family", and to avoid biological pratfalls they never consider family members in a sexual manner afterwards.

However, while no-one healthy lusts after their parents, they still look after partners that resemble their parents, unless they had very bad experiences with their parents in which case they tend to avoid reminescent qualities.

Think of it this way: if attraction is even partly genetic, it makes a degree of sense that if a mother is attracted to hunky men, so is her daughter. The father being a hunky man is... related, but tangential issue. XD

On nurture side of things, if you had good relations with your parents, you're likely to associate qualities of your parents with good relations. It might be largely sub-conscious, but it's there. If your father was a kindly, loving person, you're more likely to consider someone who looks like your dad a kindly, loving person as well. :smallwink:

Oh Freud! He had oddly tilted opinions about a lot of things. It all got down go his screwed up belief that all woman inherently want male genitals. His castration complex theories make me laugh. It's only logical that humans would seek partners they feel safe with and generally romantic partners are sexually active. I would argue a portion of sexual attraction is simply a feeling of security. Correlation is not neccesarily causation. It seems the attraction is in a lot of ways also more directed to maternal or patronal figures as opposed to genetic relations.

Asta Kask
2011-04-04, 10:56 AM
On Pansexuality vs Bisexuality

First of all, I feel that gender and sexuality are (or at least should be) self-determined. For all that it is any of our business, someone can start calling theirself a quattrosexual and none of us have any right to tell them they can't be one. We can helpfully point out that we don't know what such a term means, ask them to explain it or why they chose it, and suggest that it might be easier to find a partner if they identify as a more commonly known sexuality; but we should not tell them that there is no such thing as a quattrosexual and that they can't be one. I realize that this puts a crimp in our scientific urges to classify people in a neat, easily understood way, but there are things on which human rights issues trump scientific reasoning.

Yes and no. They have a right to call themselves whatever they want. They do not have a right to be called whatever they want. We may deem certain words unacceptable to use altogether, as in hate speech laws, but bisexual is not likely to be in that category soon. And, yes, they do of course have a right to refuse to associate with me if I refuse to call them pansexual.

Latin "cis-" means "on the same side as" and trans- means "on the opposite side as". The difference between ancient Cisalpine Gaul and Transalpine Gaul was on which side (from the Romans' perspective) of the Alps they were on.

Kajhera
2011-04-04, 11:47 AM
So, since I'm attracted to both females and males in terms of the body they wear, and not so much attracted to masculine or feminine personality traits, is there a particular subgroup for me? :smalltongue:

Coidzor
2011-04-04, 12:11 PM
So, since I'm attracted to both females and males in terms of the body they wear, and not so much attracted to masculine or feminine personality traits, is there a particular subgroup for me? :smalltongue:

No, and I shudder at the quagmire of language that would produce a situation where that was linguistically necessary.


And personally, the thought of my dad related to even-slightly-naughtiness is a squick factor, so I'm not sure how that factors into the reasoning of my daddybear-hunting.

Hmm, maybe you'll want to avoid using that kind of language then.

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-04, 01:58 PM
Hmm, maybe you'll want to avoid using that kind of language then.

Nope, I purposely chose to use that phrase.:smallbiggrin: Plus, the only other term I could think of to represent an older partner was along the lines of Sire or Lord. Yeek. Curse you, society's implicit indication of age equaling superiority!


So, since I'm attracted to both females and males in terms of the body they wear, and not so much attracted to masculine or feminine personality traits, is there a particular subgroup for me? :smalltongue:

I think the problem with that line of thinking is where do you stop? Do you have to come for different terms for people who like FtMs/MtFs specifically? Or gender queer people? Or men and women, but men only above a certain age if they're blond on Wednesday to Saturday? It soon just collapses into madness. I say; spoosh labels, and just be happy with you as you. That's what's important.

Coidzor
2011-04-04, 02:02 PM
Nope, I purposely chose to use that phrase.:smallbiggrin: Plus, the only other term I could think of to represent an older partner was along the lines of Sire or Lord. Yeek. Curse you, society's implicit indication of age equaling superiority!

Because you totally need to encapsulate all of life into single word umbrella words rather than say what you mean simply. :smalltongue: Mostly though it's just correlating age with money and status and then money and status being the actual rubric society uses to gauge relative superiority, as far as I could ever tell anyway.

Blisstake
2011-04-04, 02:09 PM
Nope, I purposely chose to use that phrase.:smallbiggrin: Plus, the only other term I could think of to represent an older partner was along the lines of Sire or Lord. Yeek. Curse you, society's implicit indication of age equaling superiority!

Although "Master" is usually reserved for a young male...

Murdim
2011-04-04, 02:11 PM
There's something that always bugs me with those "why people like who/what they like" conversations. Most people have a set of preferences, that is much more complex and varied than just one preferred type to rule them all and by which everything is measured.

This is also why I find the twink, bear, ect... labels to be so reductive. Even within a group of people attracted to supposedly the same "type", you will find a variety of differents outlooks : why is one attracted to that type to begin with, how does this attraction feel, where does the boundaries of the type begin and end, what is the most attractive part, what is "too much of a good thing", and so on.


So, since I'm attracted to both females and males in terms of the body they wear, and not so much attracted to stereotypical masculine or feminine personality traits, is there a particular subgroup for me? :smalltongue:
I permitted myself to make a tiny modification in the wording of your message. The answer is so much more obvious that way, don't you think ? :smallwink:

Alternatively, there is a particular subgroup for you, and it is called "Kajhera".

Kajhera
2011-04-04, 03:10 PM
There's something that always bugs me with those "why people like who/what they like" conversations. Most people have a set of preferences, that is much more complex and varied than just one preferred type to rule them all and by which everything is measured.

This is also why I find the twink, bear, ect... labels to be so reductive. Even within a group of people attracted to supposedly the same "type", you will find a variety of differents outlooks : why is one attracted to that type to begin with, how does this attraction feel, where does the boundaries of the type begin and end, what is the most attractive part, what is "too much of a good thing", and so on.


I permitted myself to make a tiny modification in the wording of your message. The answer is so much more obvious that way, don't you think ? :smallwink:

Alternatively, there is a particular subgroup for you, and it is called "Kajhera".

Well... yes, I don't see how traits like masculine and feminine could be much other than stereotypical, given their definition. xD The question was a bit tongue in cheek; there's obviously not going to be a subgroup for my exact personal preferences, exactly as they change with the phases of the moon. :smalltongue: (Which they do for some reason.)

Aside from, as you mention, myself.

Coidzor
2011-04-04, 03:14 PM
Well... yes, I don't see how traits like masculine and feminine could be much other than stereotypical, given their definition. xD The question was a bit tongue in cheek; there's obviously not going to be a subgroup for my exact personal preferences, exactly as they change with the phases of the moon. :smalltongue: (Which they do for some reason.)

Aside from, as you mention, myself.

Well, maybe someday when the soft sciences are out of their infancy we might figure out some things definitively about human nature, but, yeah.

Glass Mouse
2011-04-04, 04:26 PM
Hi. I usuallyhang out in the RW&A thread, but I thought I'd drop by here and pretend to have something interesting to say :smallsmile:


That's all well written, but to continue my questioning:Does that mean that a man who is willing to date both cis- and transexual women and anyone else along those lines who meets his own definition of "female" is meaningfully different, and therefore requiring a new sexuality category, to a man who is only interested in ciswomen?
If we're gonna divide up pansexuals and bisexuals on that basis, then surely we ought to divide up the other sexualities on that same basis.

I have trouble seeing why we "ought to". If the need isn't big enough, the word doesn't enter our language. Simple as that, IMO.

It seems logical to me that LGBT+ people put a lot more thought and consideration into their sexuality, simply because they aren't mainstream. Being LGBT+ entails stopping up and going "wait a minute, I'm different in X way, what does that mean?" while heterosexuals can theoretically cruise through life without ever giving it a second thought.
This might explain why there are more labels and differentiations in LGBT+ discourse.


Don't let yourself get abused or taken advantage of. What's more to be said when tangling with an older, more established lover from a weaker position? You've had to have already encountered negative feedback judging either of you already, so it doesn't really bear repeating.

This. SO MUCH THIS.

Fortunately, most people of all ages are perfectly nice and wouldn't ever try to hurt you (most will anyway - humans are flawed like that), but someone twice your age has a lot of experience on you. If they're the abusive/manipulative type, they'll know a lot more tricks than you do, and they'll know how to use them.
Just keep an eye out.

I'm sorry if I seem doomerish, but I've seen this happen with a close friend, at an age where I was too naive and stupid to do something about it. I just don't wanna see it happen to you or anyone else.

Miscast_Mage
2011-04-04, 04:33 PM
Don't mean to interupt the current topic, but I came across this (http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/304/index/6661775&lf=8) from Penny-arcade (http://www.penny-arcade.com/2011/4/1/) and I just... what is this I don't even ackpthgzl:smallfurious: This is the kind of mind-set that make's me want to stab people's eyes out with shards of fire! GAH!! I'm also a little ಠ_ಠ at the "fire David Gaider for writing a gay character that wants sex" thing, but as I haven't played the game yet, I really can't make an honest judgement about that either way. Gah. Dear humanity. Stop making yourself look like a plague upon existance itself. There is only so much I can possibly hate you I am this close to setting random people in the street on fire!

Edit: You lovable ninja, Glass Mouse. Thanks, now I feel a little less like going on a mindless, rampant destruction now. A little.

Coidzor
2011-04-04, 04:37 PM
This is the kind of mind-set that make's me want to stab people's eyes out with shards of fire!

That grinds your gears that much? :smallconfused: That's downright tame compared to what I'm used to encountering.

unosarta
2011-04-04, 04:42 PM
That grinds your gears that much? :smallconfused: That's downright tame compared to what I'm used to encountering.

:smalleek:....

Are you for real? I am so glad I live where I do... :smalleek:
[Edit]: To elucidate; I haven't seen something like that that wasn't on the internet in... a long time. I never hear sh-- stuff like that IRL.

Astrella
2011-04-04, 04:45 PM
Well, at least BioWare's response (http://www.nomorelost.org/2011/03/25/straight-male-gamer-told-to-get-over-it-by-bioware/) is pretty awesome.

bluewind95
2011-04-04, 05:04 PM
Wow. I did love his response. I'd heard about the ridiculous complaint. I'm glad to see BioWare respond so.... beautifully. And still being all polite, too.

Blisstake
2011-04-04, 05:25 PM
(Deleted, can't word this right without sounding stupid)

Coidzor
2011-04-04, 06:29 PM
^: well, no one judges me when I do that. :smallwink: So don't worry so much, and it should come to you again when you've calmed down a bit.


:smalleek:....

Are you for real? I am so glad I live where I do... :smalleek:
[Edit]: To elucidate; I haven't seen something like that that wasn't on the internet in... a long time. I never hear sh-- stuff like that IRL.

Well, yeah. Worse things get said on the national news against non-straight individuals and non-male individuals. The guy even admitted he'd had it taken down a couple of times before because he had been moderated for crossing the lines they had over there and the first post he had was responding to all of the ways the community had been calling him out for it.

So, maybe if it seemed like more of the community supported and agreed with him rather than seeing him as A. silly, B. annoying, or C. a horrible bad man, then I'd see more reason to get angry at humanity for his actions, which as far as things go, just seem rather silly and weak and like others have already taken care of chastising him as much as he could be.

Maybe I missed something really inflammatory and vile that was said though, I dunno. What about it in particular makes you cringe or your blood boil?

unosarta
2011-04-04, 06:40 PM
Maybe I missed something really inflammatory and vile that was said though, I dunno. What about it in particular makes you cringe or your blood boil?

It wasn't really something that made my blood boil, but it certainly made me cringe. Honestly, I think the response the designer gave pretty much sums up my problems with the post, especially considering the idea that there was a large percentage (which wasn't supported with anything but anecdote) of Straight Male Gamers, and therefore there shouldn't be any (as far as I could tell from the post) gay characters in the game.

Mostly, I happen to like videogames, and for the most part, the player base seems to be not very prejudiced, or at least I don't often see cases of very visible antagonism towards LGBT people, or others in general. Maybe that is just me.

The idea that someone is actively angry because a game added an LGBT option (although they still left out having transgendered characters :smallsigh:) is just really confusing/idiotic. I also kind of react to all prejudice displayed towards LGBT and other groups in this way, though. *shrug*

Tono
2011-04-04, 07:30 PM
Dragon Age allowed you to sleep with some T whores, IIRC.

unosarta
2011-04-04, 07:32 PM
Hm...How would one go about depicting transgendered characters in a videogame? ... Mention some lad used to be a lass at some point? :smallconfused: T's the part of the LGBT community I'm sadly least familiar with, so I worry that if I tried to include such options in a game I'd mess up somehow. What would be a good way to go about it?

A cross dressing character, a character that has had magic permanently change themselves.

Dissimilar to transgenderism, but characters that try to shed characteristics usually associated with their gender, cross dressing still being similar to this. Exploring areas of gender in general.

This is rarely, if ever, done in video games, something that I at least have never seen. Which is a real disappointment.


Dragon Age allowed you to sleep with some T whores, IIRC.

Were the "whores" explained and given context within the culture?

Dragon Age sounds fun, I should try it.

Kajhera
2011-04-04, 07:38 PM
A cross dressing character, a character that has had magic permanently change themselves.

Dissimilar to transgenderism, but characters that try to shed characteristics usually associated with their gender, cross dressing still being similar to this. Exploring areas of gender in general.

This is rarely, if ever, done in video games, something that I at least have never seen. Which is a real disappointment.



Were the "whores" explained and given context within the culture?

Dragon Age sounds fun, I should try it.

I'll keep it in mind. And, erm, try to ignore that part of my mind telling me gender is icky. :smalltongue: You're right, it would be interesting to explore in videogames.

Tono
2011-04-04, 07:44 PM
Were the "whores" explained and given context within the culture?

Dragon Age sounds fun, I should try it.

Nah, its nothing more then an easter egg. Go to whore house, choose a selection, and get some laughs as the female bodies run with the male sounds.

unosarta
2011-04-04, 07:53 PM
Nah, its nothing more then an easter egg. Go to whore house, choose a selection, and get some laughs as the female bodies run with the male sounds.

Dang. I love studies of "unusual" sexuality and gender in fantasy societies.


I'll keep it in mind. And, erm, try to ignore that part of my mind telling me gender is icky. :smalltongue: You're right, it would be interesting to explore in videogames.

I don't mind anything. I think I had that same sort of reaction, before I really got to know someone who actually was transgendered well enough to actually learn about them as a person.

I honestly don't think either is explored very well, although I must commend on Dragon Age for trying, although I haven't had the chance to play it.