[3.5, Base Class, Z-R] The Monk

[arguskos]

Introduction!
Ok, yeah, we're all tired of monk fixes, and I feel kinda really terrible that I'm posting one (something I swore I wouldn't ever do). However, I feel that I've really hit on something good here, and I wanted to get some more feedback for it.

The core concept is that this is a parkour artist mixed with a martial artist. I built the entire class around that idea. Its hardly perfect though, and has a stupidly annoying dead level at 17 that I just can't figure out what to fill it with.

Also, note on the mechanics:
-Athletics, Acrobatics, Perception, and Stealth are combo skills (Climb/Jump/Swim, Tumble/Balance/Escape Artist, Listen/Spot, and Hide/Move Silently, respectively).
-Battle Meditation is actually Iaijutsu Focus.
-The Will save is the average progression, which I personally like using.
-The flavor is mutable, and you can ignore it if you wish. If you'd like to know what the hell I'm talking about, check out the Traveler's Guide in my sig. I love more feedback. :smallsmile:

Without further ado, here it is!


The Monk
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u250/bloodydoves/Zaaman-Rul/MonkbyJasonEngle.jpg
By JasonEngle of deviantArt
Movement is key. Anything can be defeated with the proper motion.
-Water-Upon-Rock, Monk of the Unending Road

Considered stodgy, doddering old keepers of knowledge now useless by many until recently, the Monks of the Unending Road were originally a monastic order dedicated to the preservation of all martial arts for future generations. However, as the years passed, and knowledge of the order waned, the guardians grew dispossessed with their ancient charge. They eventually decided that the best thing to do was to synergize all the styles they were charged with guardianship of. Over the centuries, they trained relentlessly to produce a unified style, and when the Shadowstar Wars loomed, the Monks of the Unending Road stood ready. Today, the monastery trains all those that come to it seeking to learn.

These are the Monks of the Unending Road, and this is their power.

Abilities: Dexterity is the most critical ability score for monks, followed closely by Strength. Constitution is useful, but non-critical, as good monks shouldn't be getting hit much anyways.

Role: Monks are martialists, but are poor at standing on the front-lines. Monks are better as mobile strikers, dealing damage and getting away to come back again later for more.

Background: Monks are universally trained by the Monastery of the Unending Road or by someone who was trained there. The arts of the monk do not spontaneously self-generate.

Organization: Monks are not actually beholden to the Monastery, though it always welcomes brothers back into the fold. The Monastery, being independent of any nation, has little political clout and offers few services, beyond room and board for monks. There is an unspoken brotherhood between monks in the world though, and many of them come to each other's aid.

Alignment: Monks can be of any alignment, though they tend strongly towards law, as befits their origins in an ordered monastery.

Races: The Monastery of the Unending Road admits any supplicant and is massive, occupying most of the interior of a mountain. Any race can be found within its walls.

Religion: Monks tend to worship gods of law and order, or at least of martialism. Hawkmoon, Donblas, Xiombarg, Vghotan, and the Dark Prince are all common gods for monks to follow.

Other Classes: Monks, as skilled martialists and very nimble individuals, are regarded much like rogues and scouts by other classes. Monks are somewhat not combat-capable though, and garner a bit more respect than rogues and scouts tend to receive.

Hit Die: d8. Monks don't like being hit, but can take a slug or two before collapsing.

Starting Gold: 3d4x10 gp


Class Features

Class Skills: The Monk's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (history, local, religion) (Int), Perception (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Stealth (Dex), Autohypnosis (Wis), and Battle Meditation (Cha).

Skill Points at First Level: (4+Int Mod)x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int Mod
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
Speed Bonus|
AC Bonus

1st|+1|+0|+2|+1|Flowing Strike, Unarmed Strike|
10'|
+1

2nd|+2|+0|+3|+1|Agile Combatant, Bonus Feat|
10'|
+1

3rd|+3|+1|+3|+2|Athletic Superiority|
10'|
+2

4th|+4|+1|+4|+2|Acrobatic Superiority|
20'|
+2

5th|+5|+1|+4|+3|Perpetual Motion|
20'|
+3

6th|+6/+1|+2|+5|+3|Pounce, Bonus Feat|
20'|
+3

7th|+7/+2|+2|+5|+3|Vanishing Step|
30'|
+4

8th|+8/+3|+2|+6|+4|Athletic Superiority|
30'|
+4

9th|+9/+4|+3|+6|+4|Acrobatic Superiority|
30'|
+5

10th|+10/+5|+3|+7|+5|It's Not The Destination, Bonus Feat|
40'|
+5

11th|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+5|Contrail|
40'|
+6

12th|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+6|Barrel Roll|
40'|
+6

13th|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+6|Athletic Superiority|
50'|
+7

14th|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+6|Bonus Feat, Acrobatic Superiority|
50'|
+7

15th|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+7|Inexorable Progress|
50'|
+8

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+5|+10|+7|Meteoric Strike|
60'|
+8

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+8|Fast As Lightning|
60'|
+9

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+8|Bonus Feat, Athletic Superiority|
60'|
+9

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+8|Acrobatic Superiority|
70'|
+10

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+9|The Unending Road|
70'|
+10

[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with unarmed strikes, gauntlets (all varieties), daggers, punching daggers, sickles, quarterstaves, darts, slings, kukris, kamas, sais, nunchaku, sianghams, whips, bolas, nets, shuriken, hand razors*, tunnel blades*, switchblades*, armblades*, double daggers*, double ulus*, war talons*, and hook and daggers*. They are proficient with no armor.

Note: The weapons marked with an * are from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149336).

Speed Bonus (Ex): Monks of the Unending Road, as befits their style, learn to accelerate their movements at all times, the better to hunt down and destroy their foes. They gain the listed bonus to their movement speed as an enhancement bonus.

AC Bonus (Ex): The arts of the monk include basic dodge training, as good monks should avoid being hit at all times. The monk gains the listed amount as a dodge bonus to their AC.

Flowing Strike (Ex): The most basic of the techniques of the Unending Road, the technique of the flowing strike is what gives monks their reputation as agile, leaping combatants. Monks add their class level as a circumstance bonus to melee attack and damage rolls made after moving at least 10 ft in a round.

Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, the monk gains the Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike feats as bonus feats, regardless of if he meets the prerequisites.

CRITICAL NOTE: The Superior Unarmed Strike feat adds to his damage rolls, since he is not a normal D&D 3.5 monk and has no unarmed damage progression to advance.

Agile Combatant (Ex): Monks are supple and know how to use the environment to their advantage. They may ignore movement penalties from terrain.

Bonus Feat: At 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter, monks gain a bonus feat. This feat must be taken from the Fighter bonus feat list (ie. any feat with the [Fighter] tag), and the monk must qualify for the feat.

Athletic Superiority (Ex): Monks are tough and fast, but more than that, they are excellent movers. At 3rd level, and every 5 levels thereafter, monks may select one ability from the list below, and add it to the list of abilities that the Athletics skill can be used for.

Athletics Focus: The monk selects a sub-category of Athletics (jumping, climbing, or swimming). The monk gains a +4 to all Athletics checks related to that sub-category. Additionally, the monk gains a 1/day reroll of a failed Athletics check related to that sub-category. This ability can be selected more than once, but must be applied to a different sub-category each time.
Double Jump: When making an Athletics check to jump, the monk may opt to make a second Athletics check at the end of their first one's movement. If they do, they take a -10 to that check, but jump further, as per the second check's result. The second check is part of the same movement and action as the first check.
Battle Leap: The monk can, at the end of an Athletics check made to jump, make a single melee attack. If the monk successfully jumps at least 10 ft, this attack counts as a charge and if the monk has Pounce and a sufficient base attack bonus, he may make a full attack instead of a single attack. If the monk successfully jumps at least 20 ft, the attack is not only a charge, but deals double damage (if it is a full attack, only the first attack to hit deals double damage).
Wall Jump: As a full-round action, the monk may attempt to make a chain of Athletics checks to scale a walled area very rapidly. This can only be done if at least two walls exist to jump between. The monk makes an Athletics check for climbing to begin the attempt. Once the monk is at least 10 ft off the ground, he may make an Athletics check to jump to a nearby wall, then rapidly jump off of it back to the original wall, and continue in this fashion (making an Athletics check each time) until he is out of walls to use in this fashion. If the monk fails a jumping check, he can make a final Athletics check to cling to the wall (ending the attempt; this check is as per the check to climb the surface normally, but at an additional -10 for the momentum of jumping back and forth rapidly). If he fails the recovery, he falls the full distance and his action is wasted.
Water Warrior: When making an Athletics check to swim, the monk may opt to take a penalty of -10 in order to keep their hands free. While doing so, they can move at no more than one-quarter of their speed, but they may fight unhindered. While in water in this fashion, the monk does not gain their Dexterity to their Armor Class, but is not considered flat-footed.
Long Breath: The monk can hold their breath for up to four times their Constitution modifier, even while fighting (such as with Water Warrior, above).
Rocks Fall: The monk can attack from above, falling like a stone onto their foes. The monk may make a special bull rush attack from at least 20 ft above their target. To do so, they make an Athletics check as they jump downwards at the target. This Athletics check takes the place of the monk's Strength check in the bull rush. For each 5 ft the target would be moved, they instead are pile-driven into the ground, taking 2d6 damage and being immobilized for one round/square that they would normally be moved (so, if the monk would normally move them 3 squares, the target would instead take 6d6 damage and be immobilized for 3 rounds). The monk does suffer an attack of opportunity for this attempt.


Acrobatic Superiority (Ex): Monks are tough and fast, but more than that, they are excellent movers. At 4th level, and every 5 levels thereafter, monks may select one ability from the list below, and add it to the list of abilities that the Acrobatics skill can be used for.

Acrobatics Focus: The monk selects a sub-category of Acrobatics (tumbling, balancing, or escaping). The monk gains a +4 to all Acrobatics checks related to that sub-category. Additionally, the monk gains a 1/day reroll of a failed Acrobatics check related to that sub-category. This ability can be selected more than once, but must be applied to a different sub-category each time.
Ghost Flanker: When in melee with an opponent who the monk is not flanking, the monk may, as a standard action, make an Acrobatics check of DC 25. If they make the check, they can make a single melee attack, and be treated as flanking, even though no other creature is involved, for that attack. If they fail the check, they still gain an attack, but they don't gain the benefit, and are treated as flat-footed for that opponent's next turn.
Superior Ghost Flanker (requires Ghost Flanker): As Ghost Flanker, but is a full-round action and grants a full attack.
Tumbling Defense: Once/encounter, the monk may attempt an Acrobatics check as an immediate action when attacked. The check is rolled, and the result functions as the monk's AC against that attack, for better or worse.
The Magician: When entrapped by magical bonds of any kind, the monk may attempt an Acrobatics check to escape them in place of the appropriate saving throw for that effect. The DC for this Acrobatics check is twice the save DC of the spell.
Bladerunner: When the monk is in melee with a creature two or more size categories larger than he is, he may attempt an Acrobatics check as a full-round action to climb the creature by running up an arm or blade, and make an attack against them from in their space. This check has a DC of their Armor Class, and this use of Acrobatics provokes an attack of opportunity. If the check succeeds, the monk enters the creature's space and can make a single melee attack that deals double damage. The monk then exits their space into any adjacent square, ending the action.
Like the Wind: Monks are unsubtle combatants, striking hard and fast at their targets, but some few monks believe in the idea of trickery in battle. During a charge, the monk may make a feint attempt against the target of the charge, using his Acrobatics check in place of a Bluff check. Otherwise, this feint works as normal.


Perpetual Motion (Ex): Monks are masters of movement and of the use of movement in battle. As a full-round action, a monk can move up to his speed and make a single melee attack at the end of the movement (gaining flowing strike regardless of the distance moved; this is a special exemption for that ability). Then, after the first attack, the monk may move up to his speed again, and make a second melee attack. This attack gains twice the benefit from flowing strike (ie. it gains a bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to twice the monks level). None of the movement of Perpetual Motion provokes attacks of opportunity, the monk must move at least 5 feet each time, and the attacks must be taken against different targets

Pounce (Ex): At 6th level, the monk gains the pounce special ability, permitting him to full attack at the end of a charge.

Vanishing Step (Sp): At 7th level, the monk gains the ability to teleport short distances in what is one of their only truly supernatural effects. The monk can cast dimension door as a standard action once/day/two monk levels with a caster level equal to their monk level. This use of dimension door does not trigger that spell's clause as regards to losing actions, letting the monk take actions as normal after using Vanishing Step.

It's Not the Destination (Ex): There is a famous monk saying that goes "it's not the destination that matters, it's the journey." The concept is to provoke disciples into realizing that they view the world incorrectly, that it is not the current location that matters, but the one just across the room, or across the city, or across the world, and that they must seize upon the chance to go there. The order of the Unending Road has done just that. Whenever an opponent fails to take a move action or to move more than 5 ft in a round, the monk gains an extra melee attack against them on the monk's next turn. This attack is at the monk's highest base attack bonus. This ability applies to all enemies the monk is engaged with (making it deadly when combined with Perpetual Motion).

Contrail (Ex): Monks move so fast that sometimes they cause issues with the speed of their movement. The clever monk learns to use this incidental issue to their advantage. As a standard action, the monk may move up to his speed and draw a cloud of dust and dirt behind him. The squares he moves through are filled with this cloud for 1 round per monk level. This forms an impromptu wall, which is composed of 5-ft squares of dust clouds, and gives anything on one side of the cloud 20% concealment against anything on the other side of the cloud. Additionally, anything passing through a cloud of dust in this fashion suffers a -2 penalty to attacks, and Search and Perception checks for a round, as the dust clogs their eyes for a moment. The monk is immune to his own contrails. Multiple contrails do not stack.

Barrel Roll (Ex): Monks are melee combatants first and foremost. To counteract enemies who manage to maintain their distance and use ranged attacks, the monks of the Unending Road developed a technique to deflect projectiles mid-flight. The monk gains a circumstance bonus to their AC against ranged attacks each round equal to +1 per 10 ft moved.

Inexorable Progress (Ex): The most famous of all monk techniques thanks to the famed Master Chan, who used Inexorable Progress to great effectiveness against the qualnargan Impulse at the Battle of Theactgkatic in the Shadowstar Wars. The technique of Inexorable Progress is considered the most powerful offensive technique of the style of the Unending Road. As a full-round action, a monk may make a melee attack against a foe. If this attack hits, the monk may, at their option, push the foe backwards five feet, step up with the foe, and attack again. This chain of attack, push, step up, attack, push, step up, continues until the monk either misses, or has made a number of attacks equal to half of their monk level (rounded down). There is no save against Inexorable Progress, and the movement is in any direction the monk wishes (the monk cannot push someone through an object nor can the monk push someone into the air, unless the monk can fly or otherwise follow them). This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity for the monk's movement, but does for the target's. Should this ability push an enemy off of a cliff or into a liquid, saves may apply, at the DM's discretion.

Meteoric Strike (Su): There are few things as powerful and humbling as a meteor crashing to the ground, and the monk has learned to emulate the fire and fury of a meteor. As the monk moves, he gains a bonus to his damage rolls in that round equal to 1d6 fire per 10 ft moved in that round, to a maximum of 1d6 fire damage per monk level. For example, Water-Splitting-Stone charges an enemy, moving a total of 100 ft to get to that enemy. He gains 10d6 fire damage to all of his attacks (which thanks to Pounce, is a good number of attacks).

Fast As Lightning: A famous monk once said that he was as fast as lightning. To that end, all monks seek to replicate that master's speed. Once/encounter, the monk may use Vanishing Step as an immediate action.

The Unending Road (Su): The monk has reached the end of the Unending Road, and no more techniques are known. From here, the monk is on his own. Upon reaching this point, two things happen.

First, the monk unlocks the final secret of movement. All movement the monk makes is a teleportation effect. The monk no longer provokes attacks of opportunity for movement and can ignore all terrain. The monk still needs line of sight (you can't go where you can't see, after all), but the actual movement itself is unrestricted (so, the monk can ignore things such as walls of force but not a wall of stone without breaking a hole in it first). This ability does not function in a dead magic area or an anti-magic field.

Second, the monk learns a unique attack, special to that monk. The player is encouraged to present ideas for this attack to their DM for assistance and approval. Examples include:
-The ability to teleport from enemy to enemy, attacking each in turn.
-The ability to break through walls and other solid objects that block movement paths while attacking and use the debris in the attack.
-And other similarly extravagant yet awesome attack forms.

DM NOTE:
The Unending Road is an old-style AD&D type ability. It is purposefully left open-ended, both to encourage player creativity and to preserve the spirit of the class as a free-spirited and untamable force. As the DM of your game, you have the final say over this ability, but it is recommended you show leniency. After all, the Monk is not a primary spellcaster, but must compete with them on even footing at this level.

If the DM is uncomfortable with allowing a character to suggest their special ability for The Unending Road, it is suggested that the DM simply give the player the ability to make a full attack in place of a single attack action. However, the intent of the capstone of the Monk is to foster the spirit of the class and to promote player involvement in character creation, and it is STRONGLY recommended that the DM and player work together to create a unique and thematic final ability.

[arguskos]

Man, nothing? I know monk threads are unpopular, but wow. Figured on at least one comment by now.

[unosarta]

This class is... so wonderful.

For a class so focused on movement, it seems kind of strange that it gets no bull rush bonuses, or bull rush-like abilities. Maybe that is just me.

Still thinking of an idea for the dead level. Unfortunately, it is fairly hard, since it has to be balanced with the other class abilities, still powerful, and something that fits the theme of the class.

[Edit]: For the Vanishing Step ability, maybe at higher levels you can use it on opponents, or spend multiple uses to cast Teleport?

[playswithfire]

For a class so focused on movement, it seems kind of strange that it gets no bull rush bonuses, or bull rush-like abilities. Maybe that is just me.

Still thinking of an idea for the dead level. Unfortunately, it is fairly hard, since it has to be balanced with the other class abilities, still powerful, and something that fits the theme of the class.

[Edit]: For the Vanishing Step ability, maybe at higher levels you can use it on opponents, or spend multiple uses to cast Teleport?

It does have Inexorable Progress, which is somewhat bull-rush-like.

I was also thinking that some sort of improvement to Vanishing Step could fill the dead level. Maybe something like being able to use it either once per encounter as an immediate action after an enemy misses you. Or being able to expend two uses to use it as an immediate action whenever you want.

[arguskos]

This class is... so wonderful.

For a class so focused on movement, it seems kind of strange that it gets no bull rush bonuses, or bull rush-like abilities. Maybe that is just me.
The bull rush issue is actually something that a different class is going to focus on somewhat more (the Juggernaut, if you're curious). Monks can always use their bonus feats to acquire Imp. Bull Rush of course, though that's likely not what you're looking for.

I felt that the monk would be better served by solving the movement and attack/damage issues first. If there is a consensus that bull rushing needs to be worked in somewhere (though frankly, I hate the bull rush mechanics, they're f***ing terrible :smallyuk:), we can make something happen.


I was also thinking that some sort of improvement to Vanishing Step could fill the dead level. Maybe something like being able to use it either once per encounter as an immediate action after an enemy misses you. Or being able to expend two uses to use it as an immediate action whenever you want.
A Vanishing Step improvement is certainly viable. I could definitely give it a thought. I do like the idea of a once/encounter immediate effect.

[unosarta]

The bull rush issue is actually something that a different class is going to focus on somewhat more (the Juggernaut, if you're curious). Monks can always use their bonus feats to acquire Imp. Bull Rush of course, though that's likely not what you're looking for.

I felt that the monk would be better served by solving the movement and attack/damage issues first. If there is a consensus that bull rushing needs to be worked in somewhere (though frankly, I hate the bull rush mechanics, they're f***ing terrible :smallyuk:), we can make something happen.
Oh, no no no, you don't need to give them some weird bull rush bonus, or whatever. However, something that has to do with moving an enemy, through any means, seems like it would sort of fit the theme of the class, in a way.


A Vanishing Step improvement is certainly viable. I could definitely give it a thought. I do like the idea of a once/encounter immediate effect.
Although, that would mean some serious implications for the spell. I will speak to this later in the post.


It does have Inexorable Progress, which is somewhat bull-rush-like.

I was also thinking that some sort of improvement to Vanishing Step could fill the dead level. Maybe something like being able to use it either once per encounter as an immediate action after an enemy misses you. Or being able to expend two uses to use it as an immediate action whenever you want.

It depends. As an Immediate action, how does the clause about how after casting Dimension Door the Caster cannot take any actions for the rest of the turn? Would it simply not trigger the clause? Would it ignore it? Would it not be able to take any actions on their next turn?

If that issue is dealt with, it would definitely work.

[arguskos]

Oh, no no no, you don't need to give them some weird bull rush bonus, or whatever. However, something that has to do with moving an enemy, through any means, seems like it would sort of fit the theme of the class, in a way.
It would, but I just never found a good place for it honestly. I mean, with all the shenanigans and unique abilities they already get, I figured missing out on bull rushes was alright.


It depends. As an Immediate action, how does the clause about how after casting Dimension Door the Caster cannot take any actions for the rest of the turn? Would it simply not trigger the clause? Would it ignore it? Would it not be able to take any actions on their next turn?

If that issue is dealt with, it would definitely work.
I'd probably just say they ignore it. Also, I'll add something to that effect about Vanishing Step, which was intended to ignore that clause, on the basis of it being stupid.

EDIT: It's done. Fast As Lightning is now in at 17, thanks guys!

[unosarta]

How exactly does fast as lightning work? Is it in addition to vanishing step? Does it use a vanishing step use for the day? Is it independent of vanishing step, just using the name?

[arguskos]

How exactly does fast as lightning work? Is it in addition to vanishing step? Does it use a vanishing step use for the day? Is it independent of vanishing step, just using the name?
It's fairly self-explainatory. It lets you use Vanishing Step at immediate action speed once per encounter.

[arguskos]

Anybody else? Or is this is perfect? :smallwink:

[Veklim]

Powerful.
Pretty.
Perfect...?
Probably.

[Nopraptor]

This isn't a monk fix, it's a how the monk should have been in the first place!
awesome class man :smallbiggrin:

[arguskos]

Powerful.
Pretty.
Perfect...?
Probably.


This isn't a monk fix, it's a how the monk should have been in the first place!
awesome class man :smallbiggrin:
Very happy people like it, but I'm kinda hoping for some more constructive feedback. Anyone see any issues? Is there anything I've overlooked? Is the balance good? Etcetcetc.

[unosarta]

What rough tier are you looking for here? Because, honestly, this doesn't quite seem tier three. It has basically one gimmick in combat; run around and do stuff. That is fine. However, if its speed is lowered in some way, it gets kind of screwed. It has some skills, and fortunately enough Jump can sort of function as a move speed if you get it high enough, but their skills are going to be kind of low, since they especially won't be focusing on Int, most likely, or if they do, it will be a quartiary stat (Strength, Dex, and Con being higher in priority). However, besides those skill tricks (which also sort of focus on movement), there really aren't any non-movement based abilities that I can see. Feel free to correct me. The feats sort of alleviate this, but to a slight degree. To be really good at tripping, you have to invest a bit of feats, equipment, and abilities, and those feats equipment and abilities are probably going to go towards other things, more than likely.

Some ideas:
Think about increasing the skill points (maybe also the skill list).
Maybe something like Flowing Strike, but 1/4 Class Level to opposed Strength or Dexterity checks (which covers all of Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush, Disarm (I think), and the other combat maneuvers), adjusting the numbers to taste.

Other than that, it seems perfectly around tier 3, which is probably what you were going for.

[Epsilon Rose]

Hm, not really parkour. More Wushu/Wuxia. That's not a bad thing, it's just not really parkour.

two actual issues:
Improved Ghost Flanker: how useful is flanking to the monk that they're giving up flowing strike?

Blade runner: I'm not sure this is really useful. They're taking a full round action to make one attack at double damage (as apposed to 2,3 or 4 attacks at normal damage) and in the exchange have to make a skill check and risk an AoO.

[unosarta]

Hm, not really parkour. More Wushu/Wuxia. That's not a bad thing, it's just not really parkour.

two actual issues:
Improved Ghost Flanker: how useful is flanking to the monk that they're giving up flowing strike?

Blade runner: I'm not sure this is really useful. They're taking a full round action to make one attack at double damage (as apposed to 2,3 or 4 attacks at normal damage) and in the exchange have to make a skill check and risk an AoO.

I would argue it is, in fact, far more parkour than Wuxia. It focuses more on athletics, speed and mobility than marital technique. This class can't really model a brawler, but a parkour/free runner? That it can do pretty easily. Wuxia martial artist? Not really. That would be more the Shadow.

[Edit]: MARITAL TECHNIQUE? REALLY UNOSARTA?

[Epsilon Rose]

Maybe not the more traditional wuxai, but the stuff like contrail and Meteoric Strike remind me heavily of Kung Fu Hustle and the "push back step push back step" routine definitely reminds me more of Chinese martial arts than parkour which make me think of things like mirrors edge (quick approach and a swift disarm, less flowing more efficient, more focused on not getting hit [which might not model well in D&D]). But this is about interpreting flavor and thus almost entirely subjective.
Though that does remind me, some take downs and disarms would be nice to see though I'm not sure where you'd put them.

[unosarta]

Maybe not the more traditional wuxai, but the stuff like contrail and Meteoric Strike remind me heavily of Kung Fu Hustle and the "push back step push back step" routine definitely reminds me more of Chinese martial arts than parkour which make me think of things like mirrors edge (quick approach and a swift disarm, less flowing more efficient, more focused on not getting hit [which might not model well in D&D]). But this is about interpreting flavor and thus almost entirely subjective.
Though that does remind me, some take downs and disarms would be nice to see though I'm not sure where you'd put them.

Those abilities are also at high levels. Where the Monk is competing with casters. So, you are judging the entire class's flavor from... 3 abilities? Not meaning to be aggressive or anything (lord knows I can), but yeah.

True on the subjective part, though.

[arguskos]

What rough tier are you looking for here? Because, honestly, this doesn't quite seem tier three. It has basically one gimmick in combat; run around and do stuff. That is fine. However, if its speed is lowered in some way, it gets kind of screwed. It has some skills, and fortunately enough Jump can sort of function as a move speed if you get it high enough, but their skills are going to be kind of low, since they especially won't be focusing on Int, most likely, or if they do, it will be a quartiary stat (Strength, Dex, and Con being higher in priority). However, besides those skill tricks (which also sort of focus on movement), there really aren't any non-movement based abilities that I can see. Feel free to correct me. The feats sort of alleviate this, but to a slight degree. To be really good at tripping, you have to invest a bit of feats, equipment, and abilities, and those feats equipment and abilities are probably going to go towards other things, more than likely.

Some ideas:
Think about increasing the skill points (maybe also the skill list).
Maybe something like Flowing Strike, but 1/4 Class Level to opposed Strength or Dexterity checks (which covers all of Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush, Disarm (I think), and the other combat maneuvers), adjusting the numbers to taste.

Other than that, it seems perfectly around tier 3, which is probably what you were going for.
Originally, Tier 3. I felt that the unique and extended uses of Acrobatics and Athletics helped a lot here, and let you do really awesome things.

As for a skill list increase, I can consider it, though there is really nothing else I can think of that needs to go on here.


two actual issues:
Improved Ghost Flanker: how useful is flanking to the monk that they're giving up flowing strike?
That's a great question, and is an interaction I'd not noticed originally. You know what? I think I'll add the ability to make either multiple five-foot steps or a single ten-foot step to the class. That makes Superior Ghost Flanker far more useful, and is a strong tactical ability in general.


Blade runner: I'm not sure this is really useful. They're taking a full round action to make one attack at double damage (as apposed to 2,3 or 4 attacks at normal damage) and in the exchange have to make a skill check and risk an AoO.
I've learned that any multiplication effect has extreme potential, thus I limited it with the check and AoO. Don't forget that you can combine Bladerunner with Tumbling Defense though, if you wish.

Doubling damage is quite potent if done correctly. Also, it is quite possible to argue that you should gain Flowing Strike for a Bladerunner, since you are moving, it's just inside their squares. Personally, I'd let it fly.


I would argue it is, in fact, far more parkour than Wuxia. It focuses more on athletics, speed and mobility than marital technique. This class can't really model a brawler, but a parkour/free runner? That it can do pretty easily. Wuxia martial artist? Not really. That would be more the Shadow.
Wuxia/Wushu is indeed far more the Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10187860&postcount=2)'s thing. This is a class with three non-Ex abilities, and is centered around using Athletics and Acrobatics to punch people with fists/sharp metallic things. That... really doesn't scream Wuxia to me.

Contrail is the one Ex ability that's a bit shaky, but then again, if you watch cars on dirt roads, they kick up great big gouts of dust. Who's to say the Monk, with the truly stupidly high movement speed he has at that point (base 70' as a human, if you do x4 that's 280', in 10 rounds that's 2,800', in 60 minutes it's 162,000 ft, which is equal to 31 MPH), can't do the same thing? I mean, it's a dust cloud.


Maybe not the more traditional wuxai, but the stuff like contrail and Meteoric Strike remind me heavily of Kung Fu Hustle and the "push back step push back step" routine definitely reminds me more of Chinese martial arts than parkour which make me think of things like mirrors edge (quick approach and a swift disarm, less flowing more efficient, more focused on not getting hit [which might not model well in D&D]). But this is about interpreting flavor and thus almost entirely subjective.
Meteoric Strike is Su, it's supposed to. Contrail, as stated above, is quite reasonable if you do a little math and think about it some. Inexorable Progress may be a bit of a stretch, but it strikes me as possible in reality (perhaps not in 6 seconds, but perhaps it is possible; there are samurai who can cut bb pellets out of the air, why not a guy who can punch another guy across a room in 6 seconds?). The parkour influence here (which I'll remind you, is all it was, just an influence) is that of the heavy heavy emphasis on Athletics and Acrobatics.


Though that does remind me, some take downs and disarms would be nice to see though I'm not sure where you'd put them.
I thought about those sorts of things, but felt that'd be better suited to a grappler, which this monk was never intended to be.


Those abilities are also at high levels. Where the Monk is competing with casters. So, you are judging the entire class's flavor from... 3 abilities? Not meaning to be aggressive or anything (lord knows I can), but yeah.
Agreed, in some respects. Fluff is of course mutable, and no one's denying that. However, I tried pretty hard to keep the class to almost entirely realistic things, meaning that the Su stuff does stick out somewhat. As the designer though, I can assure you the intent (which I really think is evident) was for parkour and martial arts instead of Wuxia/Wushu, which is the realm of the monk's spiritual cousin, the Shadow.

Also, I absolutely appreciate the feedback, Epsilon. I'd love some suggestions on where to place the afore-mentioned five-foot multi-step/ten-foot step ability, since I think that'd be really useful. Perhaps at level 6, next to Pounce?

[unosarta]

I would say that the Grapple/Trip/Disarm/Bull Rush/whatever increases are probably more important than extra five foot steps, although both fit the theme very well. Extra 5FSs tend to be a higher level ability, though (barring an item like a Master's Training Dummy, but 2 5FSs are better than 1 10FS.)

I would like to know why you really have a problem with adding something like what I mentioned earlier. I saw that you said "It would be better on a grappler," however, there really is not grappling class, and none that you appear to be making. In addition, that is some pretty shaky logic. "This character can't do anything but run and attack" (or some variation thereof), "So I won't add anything like a grapple/trip/disarm/bull rush bonus that is based on movement" (which totally still fits the class) "because that is more the area of the grappler, a character concept" (character concepts not being defined by classes) "instead of giving this class something like that, even though no grappler class is in existence, therefore this is probably the only place to be giving it. And it still fits the class theme and concept very well, and provides some diversity of combat that would otherwise not be seen."

[Veklim]

One quick question, there's no note on there (that I can see) about multiclassing with this. If, like the standard monk, you lose abilities if you c/c out of it, then perhaps it does need the odd little tweak, but the abilities presented allow for a potent movement based combatant. Surely this means the feats you chose can cover many shortfallings, most I'd argue, since I don't think you really need bother about more movement or combat-direct feats, it does enough of that as it is.
Perhaps the Perpetual Motion ability should count as Spring Attack for the purposes of gaining feats (it's basically a souped up version after all). Also, the way I see this class, Flowing Strike gives more of a direct combat bonus than anything, if you added Corkscrew Charge to it's repertoire then it would become triply as effective.
One last thing, although Str is obviously a good choice, many years of playing has taught me that Dex can replace Str almost entirely, and remove a little MAD from the character build. W Finesse is all you need to ignore Str and pump Int instead, once again, Flowing Strike will see to that. Why bother tripping or disarming at all? Most foes will only be able to get 1, perhaps 2 attacks in /round as it is...
This class should excell at picking off strategic targets, one or two at a time, the Battle skill would aid in identifying these targets, so perhaps it's addition is also pertinent. Overall, I don't see much wrong with it and would happily sub out the standard (which I usually ban in honesty), and it would get used in my campaigns.

[unosarta]

One quick question, there's no note on there (that I can see) about multiclassing with this. If, like the standard monk, you lose abilities if you c/c out of it, then perhaps it does need the odd little tweak, but the abilities presented allow for a potent movement based combatant. Surely this means the feats you chose can cover many shortfallings, most I'd argue, since I don't think you really need bother about more movement or combat-direct feats, it does enough of that as it is.

Feats are not class features. This is the entire shortfall of the fighter. Let me repeat that, feats are not class features. There is a long explanation why, but basically; the monk is movement related. If they are wanting to remain competently movement related, then they need to invest feats. If they invest feats, then they won't have feats to do much else. If they have too many feats, and can only use them for Combat Maneuvers, then, seriously, just give them combat maneuver related class features. Giving them the option and not the actual ability, and saying that that is balanced does not make it balanced.

[Epsilon Rose]

Hm, I'm not sure I'd put the improved 5ft step at level six where you're already getting a feat and pounce (which I think is supposed to be really useful but since I've never actually played a charger I don't know). Why not key the 5 ft steps off of the movement increases getting an additional step at 7 and 16 when most characters will be, respectively, doubling and tripling their speed?

Also, when I suggested disarms and take downs I was once again thinking about mirrors edge where these techniques would be part of your movement not some stationary attack chain (which would be more grappler-esque).

[arguskos]

I would say that the Grapple/Trip/Disarm/Bull Rush/whatever increases are probably more important than extra five foot steps, although both fit the theme very well. Extra 5FSs tend to be a higher level ability, though (barring an item like a Master's Training Dummy, but 2 5FSs are better than 1 10FS.)
Well, movement is critical, though you are perhaps correct.


I would like to know why you really have a problem with adding something like what I mentioned earlier. I saw that you said "It would be better on a grappler," however, there really is not grappling class, and none that you appear to be making. In addition, that is some pretty shaky logic. "This character can't do anything but run and attack" (or some variation thereof), "So I won't add anything like a grapple/trip/disarm/bull rush bonus that is based on movement" (which totally still fits the class) "because that is more the area of the grappler, a character concept" (character concepts not being defined by classes) "instead of giving this class something like that, even though no grappler class is in existence, therefore this is probably the only place to be giving it. And it still fits the class theme and concept very well, and provides some diversity of combat that would otherwise not be seen."
I wanted to avoid making this a combat maneuver class since I felt that is something that others have already done, and should be focused on, such as the Fighter. Fighters gain feats. That's... all they gain. Feats allow you to specialize in combat maneuvers (Bull rush, disarm, trip, etcetcetc). The logic is that the monk doesn't do that because he does something unique, the running, leaping, punching dudes, etc. Other martialists do the supercharging and/or the combat trickery.


One quick question, there's no note on there (that I can see) about multiclassing with this. If, like the standard monk, you lose abilities if you c/c out of it, then perhaps it does need the odd little tweak, but the abilities presented allow for a potent movement based combatant. Surely this means the feats you chose can cover many shortfallings, most I'd argue, since I don't think you really need bother about more movement or combat-direct feats, it does enough of that as it is.
There is no multiclassing note because I don't like them.


Perhaps the Perpetual Motion ability should count as Spring Attack for the purposes of gaining feats (it's basically a souped up version after all). Also, the way I see this class, Flowing Strike gives more of a direct combat bonus than anything, if you added Corkscrew Charge to it's repertoire then it would become triply as effective.
That's a curious idea.


This class should excell at picking off strategic targets, one or two at a time, the Battle skill would aid in identifying these targets, so perhaps it's addition is also pertinent. Overall, I don't see much wrong with it and would happily sub out the standard (which I usually ban in honesty), and it would get used in my campaigns.
I appreciate that. If you do use it (and you're welcome to), please, let me know how it goes. :smallsmile:


Feats are not class features. This is the entire shortfall of the fighter. Let me repeat that, feats are not class features. There is a long explanation why, but basically; the monk is movement related. If they are wanting to remain competently movement related, then they need to invest feats. If they invest feats, then they won't have feats to do much else. If they have too many feats, and can only use them for Combat Maneuvers, then, seriously, just give them combat maneuver related class features. Giving them the option and not the actual ability, and saying that that is balanced does not make it balanced.
Actually, you are aware that they by super technicality, they ARE class features. :smalltongue:

However, the point is valid. But then again, feats are meant to branch you out, no? To give you options your class does not, no? In this case, that would be a monk taking Improved Disarm to be better at disarming, to specialize in disarming, even though his training does not include it naturally. If you are really going to argue that I should give the monk bonuses to all those combat maneuvers, than I'm going to ask you what the hell he needs feats ever for. Feats specialize. Those combat maneuvers are things he can already do, and if he wants to do them better (to specialize, as it were), he needs to take feats for it.


Hm, I'm not sure I'd put the improved 5ft step at level six where you're already getting a feat and pounce (which I think is supposed to be really useful but since I've never actually played a charger I don't know). Why not key the 5 ft steps off of the movement increases getting an additional step at 7 and 16 when most characters will be, respectively, doubling and tripling their speed?
Good thought.


Also, when I suggested disarms and take downs I was once again thinking about mirrors edge where these techniques would be part of your movement not some stationary attack chain (which would be more grappler-esque).
True enough.

Allow me to be perfectly transparent. I don't like adding combat maneuvers to the monk. I don't feel it needs them. Several of them are going onto the Juggernaut (a class that is yet to come), several already have support through the Shadow, and they already have support in many other classes and PrCs. I feel that the monk has a niche, that of the melee skirmisher, and that it fulfills it very well, and that adding the combat maneuvers is not conducive to the idea of the monk.

However, since there is a large outcry in favor of them, I will admit to being outnumbered, and what is the point of public review if I don't listen to the public? I'll add one ability to Athletic and Acrobatic Superiority each re. combat maneuvers to meet the proponents half-way, then be done with this chain of argument. Is this a fair compromise?

[unosarta]

However, since there is a large outcry in favor of them, I will admit to being outnumbered, and what is the point of public review if I don't listen to the public? I'll add one ability to Athletic and Acrobatic Superiority each re. combat maneuvers to meet the proponents half-way, then be done with this chain of argument. Is this a fair compromise?

This works for me.

[arguskos]

Added to Athletic Superiority:

Rocks Fall: The monk can attack from above, falling like a stone onto their foes. The monk may make a special bull rush attack from at least 20 ft above their target. To do so, they make an Athletics check as they jump downwards at the target. This Athletics check takes the place of the monk's Strength check in the bull rush. For each 5 ft the target would be moved, they instead are pile-driven into the ground, taking 2d6 damage and being immobilized for one round/square that they would normally be moved (so, if the monk would normally move them 3 squares, the target would instead take 6d6 damage and be immobilized for 3 rounds). The monk does suffer an attack of opportunity for this attempt.

Added to Acrobatic Superiority (something no one probably saw coming too, which makes me happy):

Like the Wind: Monks are unsubtle combatants, striking hard and fast at their targets, but some few monks believe in the idea of trickery in battle. During a charge, the monk may make a feint attempt against the target of the charge, using his Acrobatics check in place of a Bluff check. Otherwise, this feint works as normal.

Honestly, why did Feint get absolutely no love? It's such a cool combat option, but was totally ignored. :smallfrown: I almost want to do a Feint-themed PrC now.

Does this mollify you fine folks?

Also, I'm actually surprised no one's even commented on The Unending Road. I expected more reaction, honestly.

[unosarta]

I effin love Rocks Fall. Like the Wind is interesting, and probably useful, but Rocks Fall is really evocative and awesome.

No comments for Unending Road mostly because the power level of the ability is going to depend directly on the DM or player, and their ingenuity or lack thereof.

[arguskos]

I effin love Rocks Fall. Like the Wind is interesting, and probably useful, but Rocks Fall is really evocative and awesome.
I liked the idea of Wall Jumping to the top of something reaaaaally high, then being all "rocks fall, you die" and smashing a guy.

Also, I seriously think Wall Jump is my favorite thing in this entire class, enough for me to dip Monk 3 to get, then going into Artificer or Warlock so I can play Samus Aran. :smallcool:


No comments for Unending Road mostly because the power level of the ability is going to depend directly on the DM or player, and their ingenuity or lack thereof.
Yeah, I know your stance. Was mostly curious about other people's.

EDIT: By the by, I am... concerned about the Monk's defenses. They don't have the best saves ever, they have no method to get around being flat-footed (which turns off their AC bonus, since it's a dodge bonus), and they don't wear armor. That all spells "oshi-" to me. Thoughts? Tumbling Defense is nice, but hardly enough. Mages are going to walk all the hell over monks, and that's something I'm worried about. Perhaps working Evasion and/or Mettle in there somewhere? If so, where?

EDIT2: Added something really really important to the table, the Improved and Superior Unarmed Strike feats at level 1, since really, being forced to pay that particular feat tax is just stupid. Dammit WotC, why did you make unarmed strikes SO PATHETICALLY BAD?! WHYYYYYY???? :smallfurious:

[Lateral]

I like it. It's not exactly a standard Monk anymore, but...

...Well, screw standard Monks.

I'd agree that the Monk's defenses are lacking; you might want to put Evasion at 3rd or 4th level, and bump the Fort save from low to medium. Maybe even give 'em all 3 good saves, like a standard Monk, and give them Mettle at level 5 or 6. (Mettle does count for two saves, after all.)

[unosarta]

EDIT: By the by, I am... concerned about the Monk's defenses. They don't have the best saves ever, they have no method to get around being flat-footed (which turns off their AC bonus, since it's a dodge bonus), and they don't wear armor. That all spells "oshi-" to me. Thoughts? Tumbling Defense is nice, but hardly enough. Mages are going to walk all the hell over monks, and that's something I'm worried about. Perhaps working Evasion and/or Mettle in there somewhere? If so, where?
You could make that Dodge bonus a Deflection bonus at high levels, which will never go away, and applies to touch attacks as well. You could flavor it as going from being able to sense the attack coming to you, to simply forcing the attack away with sheer force of will (hence higher levels).

Evasion and Mettle are both good ideas.


EDIT2: Added something really really important to the table, the Improved and Superior Unarmed Strike feats at level 1, since really, being forced to pay that particular feat tax is just stupid. Dammit WotC, why did you make unarmed strikes SO PATHETICALLY BAD?! WHYYYYYY???? :smallfurious:
Because they are simply not comparable to weapons for the sheer speed of taking an opponent out, in real life. At higher levels, yes, this does not make sense. But for modeling reality, it is entirely logical.

[arguskos]

I like it. It's not exactly a standard Monk anymore, but...

...Well, screw standard Monks.
Agreed.


I'd agree that the Monk's defenses are lacking; you might want to put Evasion at 3rd or 4th level, and bump the Fort save from low to medium. Maybe even give 'em all 3 good saves, like a standard Monk, and give them Mettle at level 5 or 6. (Mettle does count for two saves, after all.)
That's a thought. May change the Fort save to Medium and add Mettle somewhere.


You could make that Dodge bonus a Deflection bonus at high levels, which will never go away, and applies to touch attacks as well. You could flavor it as going from being able to sense the attack coming to you, to simply forcing the attack away with sheer force of will (hence higher levels).
That's necessarily a Su ability, something I strongly desire to avoid. I may simply give them Uncanny Dodge to negate being flat-footed.


Because they are simply not comparable to weapons for the sheer speed of taking an opponent out, in real life. At higher levels, yes, this does not make sense. But for modeling reality, it is entirely logical.
But dammit this is high fantasy! Mostly, I'm just sad that I have to auto-give the class two feats in order for them to be workable as an unarmed character.

[Veklim]

Because they are simply not comparable to weapons for the sheer speed of taking an opponent out, in real life. At higher levels, yes, this does not make sense. But for modeling reality, it is entirely logical.

To a large extent I'd be happy to agree, but, I've been doing jujitsu for 4 years or so now and I can tell you it's faster and deadlier than some imagine. There's a 2nd dan kata which takes about 3 seconds all told when done at the speed intended, whereby you literally break every bone in both of your opponent's arms and turn their head around enough for them to inspect their own behind. Fantasy has nothing on r/l!
So the idea of unarmed strikes being so lame for a martial atist based character in a world where a 6th level fighter can literally cut a bugbear in 2 and a wizard can set alight to an entire village in seconds is a little ridiculous!

[unosarta]

To a large extent I'd be happy to agree, but, I've been doing jujitsu for 4 years or so now and I can tell you it's faster and deadlier than some imagine. There's a 2nd dan kata which takes about 3 seconds all told when done at the speed intended, whereby you literally break every bone in both of your opponent's arms and turn their head around enough for them to inspect their own behind. Fantasy has nothing on r/l!
So the idea of unarmed strikes being so lame for a martial atist based character in a world where a 6th level fighter can literally cut a bugbear in 2 and a wizard can set alight to an entire village in seconds is a little ridiculous!

So, as a nidan blackbelt in jujitsu, you would have been studying jujitsu for how long? If that same amount of time were spent studying a weapon, do you think it would still have that same result? Or, rather, do you think that you would still necessarily defeat said opponent?

In fact, that larger reason that weapons are more effective is that A) they have a larger reach. Reach is important. That kata could probably be devastating, but if you cannot reach your opponent without sustaining major injuries, it is probably not very useful, and B) that a weapon magnifies the force being applied to a smaller area. This is especially true for piercing weapons, but also sort of applies to slashing weapons and bludgeoning weapons. A piercing weapon takes all of that energy that you would normally be doing for a strike, a kick, etc etc, and then condenses it down to the tip of your weapon. This means that that much force is affecting a tiny, tiny area, which means it is far more likely to penetrate skin, and therefore a vital organ, and that the attack is that much deadlier. One's fist is not hard enough to really transfer the force effectively without extensive training, and many synthetic materials are still better at transferring that force.

[arguskos]

You're talking past each other, guys. Veklim kinda hit my theory on the head here:

So the idea of unarmed strikes being so lame for a martial atist based character in a world where a 6th level fighter can literally cut a bugbear in 2 and a wizard can set alight to an entire village in seconds is a little ridiculous!

See, in reality, yeah, fists<anything else. In D&D fists>=other stuff, as it should be. D&D is a game of high fantasy first and foremost. Always has been. WotC's big failure was failing to realize that and making something that had pretensions to realism. A bit of realism is fine, but when level 6 characters are capable of breaking real life records re. jumping and running, it's kinda silly to base an entire combat form on realism (especially when they DID IT WRONG ANYWAYS).

Realism is a great base, but it needs to end around level 6 or so. After level 6, things need to be fantastical just to keep up. Thus, my logic for this class doing stuff that's really not possible (if you seriously think this monk is 100% real [or even close], allow me to mention that, if you have long enough walls, you can wall jump hundreds or thousands of vertical feet in a single round AND make a 5-ft step at the beginning or end of the wall jump).

[unosarta]

See, in reality, yeah, fists<anything else. In D&D fists>=other stuff, as it should be. D&D is a game of high fantasy first and foremost. Always has been. WotC's big failure was failing to realize that and making something that had pretensions to realism. A bit of realism is fine, but when level 6 characters are capable of breaking real life records re. jumping and running, it's kinda silly to base an entire combat form on realism (especially when they DID IT WRONG ANYWAYS).

Realism is a great base, but it needs to end around level 6 or so. After level 6, things need to be fantastical just to keep up. Thus, my logic for this class doing stuff that's really not possible (if you seriously think this monk is 100% real [or even close], allow me to mention that, if you have long enough walls, you can wall jump hundreds or thousands of vertical feet in a single round AND make a 5-ft step at the beginning or end of the wall jump).

Realism does end at around level 6. However, just because realism ends does not mean that anyone who uses their fists will automatically do as much or more damage than a weapon. Seriously, that make's no sense. Weapons that are used when the character doesn't know how take a -4 penalty. Fists that do also do less damage-- because fists are inherently inferior-- they simply are not able to transfer as much force as a manufactured weapon. However, for a monk, who specifically trains very, very long with their unarmed weapons? Their weapons can deal as much damage as a longsword, at level 4. That is crazy! I honestly have no idea how that is even physically possible. Just by level four they are breaking realism. And then it progresses on to being as much damage as helberd, a greatclub, or a glaive. A greatclub? Really? Has anyone who designed the class even seen how much damage that can do, with the proper momentum and leverage? And then it moves on to being as strong as a greatsword. Yeah, that is just effing ridiculous. Seriously. And then it actually becomes stronger than any weapon in the game. You think the designers were sticking too close to reality? Seriously? The monk class's unarmed strike progression doesn't even make any sense at level four, let alone 8, 12, 16, or 20.

[arguskos]

Realism does end at around level 6. However, just because realism ends does not mean that anyone who uses their fists will automatically do as much or more damage than a weapon. Seriously, that make's no sense.
Why not? It's a game, about magicians that can shoot lightning and travel instantaneously and sword wielders that can cut giant monsters in half in under 6 seconds, and you are complaining that a fist can deal damage equal to a sword? Really?

That fists are relegated to second-class weapons is inane in such a game. In GURPS, ok, sure, fists<weapons, since GURPS is far more realistic in this regard. My issue is that the designers failed to realize how absurd their game was and treated only certain parts of it as such.

I mean, I've handled it, cause it's easy, and it's not a massive issue, but it does bug me somewhat is all.

[unosarta]

Why not? It's a game, about magicians that can shoot lightning and travel instantaneously and sword wielders that can cut giant monsters in half in under 6 seconds, and you are complaining that a fist can deal damage equal to a sword? Really?
Oh arguskos, I never thought you would actually stoop to the "they can use MAGIC, therefore anything is possible!" stance. Swordmasters cannot cut literally a monster in two. There is nothing describing them as such. There is no fluff associated with killing a monster with one blow, or even with hitting a monster at all. There is no fluff that says so, so anything that would be said pertaining to such a topic is entirely under the DM's purview. Which means; the system has no reason, and no need, to have fist weapons be better than other weapons from that standpoint.

As for magic; are the fist weapons magic? If not, then you have no point whatsoever. "Mage's can change the universe through magic, therefore a concept I like should exist!" Even if that concept has no place? Also, you can in fact boost your fists up to dealing damage as a longsword, through a magic item. So, yeah, you can in fact gain fists that deal some crazy damage in comparison to their real-world equivalents, and through magic! Unlike normal monk fist weapons.


That fists are relegated to second-class weapons is inane in such a game. In GURPS, ok, sure, fists<weapons, since GURPS is far more realistic in this regard. My issue is that the designers failed to realize how absurd their game was and treated only certain parts of it as such.
The designers understood exactly how absurd their game was... at higher levels. Which appears to be primarily what you are talking about. And at higher levels, you can (or at least should) be able to find items that boost your unarmed strike up to higher damage than ever, or just take levels in monk, and boost it up to ridiculous in comparison to real world equivalents that way. However, you are complaining about their power level at low levels, which are in fact, very realistic levels of play. The designers wanted for realism to come into play. Saying that they shouldn't because "fists are cooler" and using the absurdity of high power levels as a reasoning are... illogical.


I mean, I've handled it, cause it's easy, and it's not a massive issue, but it does bug me somewhat is all.
I think my main problem with it is that they didn't include Superior Unarmed Strike in core. That would have made sense, and allowed combat characters that didn't want to be monks (and dammit, no one can blame them) to still be able to punch/kick/whatever effectively.

[arguskos]

Oh arguskos, I never thought you would actually stoop to the "they can use MAGIC, therefore anything is possible!" stance. Swordmasters cannot cut literally a monster in two. There is nothing describing them as such. There is no fluff associated with killing a monster with one blow, or even with hitting a monster at all. There is no fluff that says so, so anything that would be said pertaining to such a topic is entirely under the DM's purview. Which means; the system has no reason, and no need, to have fist weapons be better than other weapons from that standpoint.
Fluff is mutable. Always has been. Claiming that because a BOOK doesn't say it, it must not matter/exist, is crazy.

As for if a sword-wielder can do that, yeah, he totally can. A charger can take a monster of any level from full to dead in a single strike, and since fluff is mutable, it is them cutting a dude in half (quite literally, with Cleave).

Also, I find that first line patronizing and factually incorrect. :smallannoyed:


As for magic; are the fist weapons magic? If not, then you have no point whatsoever. "Mage's can change the universe through magic, therefore a concept I like should exist!" Even if that concept has no place? Also, you can in fact boost your fists up to dealing damage as a longsword, through a magic item. So, yeah, you can in fact gain fists that deal some crazy damage in comparison to their real-world equivalents, and through magic! Unlike normal monk fist weapons.
You'll note I never actually said "MAGIC PERFECT AUUGHALYWARGLBLUHHH". I said that in a game where magicians can do things that defy physics, basing fists on reality seems stupid.


The designers understood exactly how absurd their game was... at higher levels. Which appears to be primarily what you are talking about. And at higher levels, you can (or at least should) be able to find items that boost your unarmed strike up to higher damage than ever, or just take levels in monk, and boost it up to ridiculous in comparison to real world equivalents that way. However, you are complaining about their power level at low levels, which are in fact, very realistic levels of play. The designers wanted for realism to come into play. Saying that they shouldn't because "fists are cooler" and using the absurdity of high power levels as a reasoning are... illogical.
Not really. We have mages who, at level 1, can fire rainbows from their fingertips. We have barbarians (whose power, I remind you, comes from their anger, like Mr. Furious in Mystery Men) who can yell really loud and frighten huge groups of people (thanks to feats). We have rogues who can see weak spots that the TRAINED WARRIORS cannot find. How does any of this make any sense.

I'm using the absurdity of the game system, not just high or low levels, as witness to WotC's failure to understand what they made and to fix it when they made the update we play today.

Here's a great example. At level 2, you can be fighting dragons (giant lizards that fly and breath fire/acid/cold [how do?]/lightning/sleep gas/etcetcetc), demons (wait what?), devils (see demons), angels, slime monsters, and bugs that are the size of VW Bugs. And you want to talk about realism at low levels. :smalltongue:

Again, this is really not a big deal though, and honestly not relevant to the thread's purpose. We can agree that unarmed fighting got little love mechanically, which is all I really cared about to begin with.

[unosarta]

Fluff is mutable. Always has been. Claiming that because a BOOK doesn't say it, it must not matter/exist, is crazy.

As for if a sword-wielder can do that, yeah, he totally can. A charger can take a monster of any level from full to dead in a single strike, and since fluff is mutable, it is them cutting a dude in half (quite literally, with Cleave).
However, your exact interpretation, while being perfectly viable, is not supported by the book. If you are trying to base an argument around the game fluff (which is exactly what you are talking about in this case), then if the fluff does not exist, there is no where to base the argument from.

Nothing says that it does exactly cut them in half. Anywhere. You may interpret it as such, and that is your right, but that is not what the book says. I could also interpret it as being that they stab into the creature's neck, killing them instantly, or that they cut off the creature's head, or that they slice through its belly, or that they stab through its spine, etc etc. All of them are technically correct.

And cleave is less about actually cutting a creature in half so much as using the momentum of one swing that was devastating, to continue on to a new enemy. I could say that the fighter cut through the monster's neck, and then using the moment of the strike, sliced at that monster's ally. Or that the fighter slices through the monster's belly, and then uses said momentum again.


Also, I find that first line patronizing and factually incorrect. :smallannoyed:
I am sorry, but the argument you were using honestly just annoys the crap out of me. "Magical characters can do fantastic stuff, therefore mundane characters should be able to as well" doesn't make any sense to me at all (which is essentially what you are saying). If said mundane (non-magical) characters could do something that fantastic, it would be magic or supernatural. Which fist weapons are not.


You'll note I never actually said "MAGIC PERFECT AUUGHALYWARGLBLUHHH". I said that in a game where magicians can do things that defy physics, basing fists on reality seems stupid.
...

Why even have weapon damages then? Why not just use the strength of the warrior wielding them? If you aren't going to be basing it on reality, why bother with weapons at all? Why not just have it be that any weapon deals the same amount of damage, dependent on character level, but that the attacks with weapons are simply refluffed?


Not really. We have mages who, at level 1, can fire rainbows from their fingertips. We have barbarians (whose power, I remind you, comes from their anger, like Mr. Furious in Mystery Men) who can yell really loud and frighten huge groups of people (thanks to feats). We have rogues who can see weak spots that the TRAINED WARRIORS cannot find. How does any of this make any sense.

I'm using the absurdity of the game system, not just high or low levels, as witness to WotC's failure to understand what they made and to fix it when they made the update we play today.
Shooting rainbows from your finger tips is magic, fists are not, apples to oranges. Why is yelling with such intense rage and ferocity that it frightens others who are already pumped up with adrenaline that unimaginable? Also, rogues specifically train to find those weak spots. I don't see how that wouldn't make sense. The warriors use their strength to overcome opponents. Rogues (generally) don't have that kind of strength, and compensate by looking for weak spots that warriors do not even think to look for.


Here's a great example. At level 2, you can be fighting dragons (giant lizards that fly and breath fire/acid/cold [how do?]/lightning/sleep gas/etcetcetc), demons (wait what?), devils (see demons), angels, slime monsters, and bugs that are the size of VW Bugs. And you want to talk about realism at low levels. :smalltongue:

Again, this is really not a big deal though, and honestly not relevant to the thread's purpose. We can agree that unarmed fighting got little love mechanically, which is all I really cared about to begin with.
Those lizards, at level two, if they were really giant, would kill any character. A reasonable challenge at level two, would be a tiny or small creature (I.E. wyrmling). Those demons and devils? Similarly small. Angels don't even hit a CR CLOSE to being fought until level 14. Slime monsters are essentially a gelatinous cube at that level, which isn't that strange, necessarily, and is also made of magic (IIRC). Also, can you give some examples of said large or huge sized bugs? Unless you mean the Monstrous Centipede, and those are probably also created via magic.

[Edit]: Eh, whatever. My point still stands. Too hungry to continue till later.

[arguskos]

However, your exact interpretation, while being perfectly viable, is not supported by the book. If you are trying to base an argument around the game fluff (which is exactly what you are talking about in this case), then if the fluff does not exist, there is no where to base the argument from.
Books are not written in stone, nor are they immutable. I would like to note that you're quibbling to this degree over a throw-away example.

I could easily have simply said this: "A sword-wielder can auto-kill anything he looks at." This is a perfectly, 100% true statement. Charging, mechanically, is more than capable of doing exactly this.


I am sorry, but the argument you were using honestly just annoys the crap out of me. "Magical characters can do fantastic stuff, therefore mundane characters should be able to as well" doesn't make any sense to me at all (which is essentially what you are saying). If said mundane (non-magical) characters could do something that fantastic, it would be magic or supernatural. Which fist weapons are not.
I wasn't saying that. I was saying that judging mundane by the yardstick of "what is possible in reality" and magic by the yardstick of "it's MAGIC, BITCHES!!" doesn't make any god damn sense. Use the same damn yardstick! This is why 3.5 is so terrible, mechanically, and why class rewrites are so critically needed in many cases.

Is this a wrong argument? I've seen you rail against specific examples (which honestly, I should have known would happen, you and I have a history of this after all), but I've yet to hear any argument against what I've been saying: that balancing one thing by reality and the other by whimsy and fancy doesn't make sense nor work mechanically.


...

Why even have weapon damages then? Why not just use the strength of the warrior wielding them? If you aren't going to be basing it on reality, why bother with weapons at all? Why not just have it be that any weapon deals the same amount of damage, dependent on character level, but that the attacks with weapons are simply refluffed?
Amusingly that's what the game originally was, you know. OD&D had all weapons deal 1d6, no bonuses. Since then, the game has evolved mechanically, and now weapon damage exists for options and to give complexity and depth to the system.

However, mechanically, there are sub-par choices. I dislike that some choices are just so damn bad that they're nigh-unredeemable. Unarmed Strikes are not the worst offenders here, but they're pretty close (the worst offenders would be something like splint mail or the greatclub or similar choices that are simply so bad no reason to even LOOK at them exists).


Shooting rainbows from your finger tips is magic, fists are not, apples to oranges. Why is yelling with such intense rage and ferocity that it frightens others who are already pumped up with adrenaline that unimaginable? Also, rogues specifically train to find those weak spots. I don't see how that wouldn't make sense. The warriors use their strength to overcome opponents. Rogues (generally) don't have that kind of strength, and compensate by looking for weak spots that warriors do not even think to look for.

Those lizards, at level two, if they were really giant, would kill any character. A reasonable challenge at level two, would be a tiny or small creature (I.E. wyrmling). Those demons and devils? Similarly small. Angels don't even hit a CR CLOSE to being fought until level 14. Slime monsters are essentially a gelatinous cube at that level, which isn't that strange, necessarily, and is also made of magic (IIRC). Also, can you give some examples of said large or huge sized bugs? Unless you mean the Monstrous Centipede, and those are probably also created via magic.
I refuse to be drawn into another "your examples are bad and you should feel bad" discussion. I need to learn to stop using examples with you. :smalltongue:


[Edit]: Eh, whatever. My point still stands. Too hungry to continue till later.
...what, exactly, was your point? I'm getting a lot of "your examples are bad and you should feel bad", but not anything specifically against my actual argument, that of the yardstick things are measured by. I'll admit, this is mostly because I use examples to illustrate the point a lot, and you like to argue against examples not the point behind them, thus causing us to yell frantically at something that the other guy isn't actually saying (we do this a lot, can't you tell?).

To put this another way:
What is the benefit to having two different yardsticks by which you measure things, one for mundane and one for magic? If the mundane are judged by reality and the magic are judged by "it's MAGIC, BITCHES!", what is the net benefit for the system?

My answer: there is no benefit, only drawbacks, and it is this fundamental measuring error that directly led to all the mechanical problems of 3.5. As a side note, this is why ToB is so beloved, because it represents WotC realizing they ****ed up, and remeasuring mundane by the yardstick of magic, thus equalizing the issue to a much greater degree.

[unosarta]

Books are not written in stone, nor are they immutable. I would like to note that you're quibbling to this degree over a throw-away example.

I could easily have simply said this: "A sword-wielder can auto-kill anything he looks at." This is a perfectly, 100% true statement. Charging, mechanically, is more than capable of doing exactly this.
You gave two examples. I already talked about one of them, and then we moved on to the other example. These were a pretty much essential part of your argument (as far as I could tell), so talking about them made logical sense.

Also, can you specify exactly what you mean by "A sword-wielder can auto-kill anything he looks at." Charging does, indeed, deal a lot of damage. However, it also provokes an attack of opportunity. An attack of opportunity that cannot be avoided. If the charger is facing a grappler, someone with disarm, someone with trip, or any of the combat maneuvers, or even someone who can hit him, the charge isn't that much of a gain.

And I do understand that charging is a little bit borked. I am actually playing a charger in an online game, and I can easily pull 60+ damage a round, in a class that was homebrewed by myself, with no optimization at all. I think this is more a problem of too many multipliers on Power Attack and the charge itself, rather than with the rest of the system. However, Charging does have its own drawbacks. You can only move in a straight line, without some feats and minor investments. You provoke an attack of opportunity.

However, I do agree that charging is kind of messed up. However, this doesn't make unarmed strikes dealing realistic amounts of damage without any investment logical. Can you explain to me why unarmed strikes, without any investment, should be able to do higher than realistic damage, with an argument that is not "because it is cool" or "because parts of other systems are imperfect"?


I wasn't saying that. I was saying that judging mundane by the yardstick of "what is possible in reality" and magic by the yardstick of "it's MAGIC, BITCHES!!" doesn't make any god damn sense. Use the same damn yardstick! This is why 3.5 is so terrible, mechanically, and why class rewrites are so critically needed in many cases.

Is this a wrong argument? I've seen you rail against specific examples (which honestly, I should have known would happen, you and I have a history of this after all), but I've yet to hear any argument against what I've been saying: that balancing one thing by reality and the other by whimsy and fancy doesn't make sense nor work mechanically.
I think that judging them by different yardsticks can be entirely useful in certain cases. For instance, I understand that magic is ridiculously powerful, and that is probably wrong. However, I don't see how that applies to this argument. If fists were stronger than weapons without investments, why would anyone use weapons? If weapons are in all ways besides critical strike range and multiplier and special abilities inferior to fists and unarmed weapons, why would anyone use fists and unarmed weapons? Especially since there are no ways to put investments into weapons to increase their base damage to a degree that makes it on par with fists, and there are ways to do so with fists. Superior and Improved Unarmed Strike exist for a reason.

Also, if you want to be really logically consistent: why even have a system that attempts to model reality in any way then?

This is a fascinating argument in general (not yours or mine, but the one we are having together-- does that make sense? The words aren't really working out in my head) mostly because it seems to be between stylistic differences, which are really interesting.


Amusingly that's what the game originally was, you know. OD&D had all weapons deal 1d6, no bonuses. Since then, the game has evolved mechanically, and now weapon damage exists for options and to give complexity and depth to the system.

However, mechanically, there are sub-par choices. I dislike that some choices are just so damn bad that they're nigh-unredeemable. Unarmed Strikes are not the worst offenders here, but they're pretty close (the worst offenders would be something like splint mail or the greatclub or similar choices that are simply so bad no reason to even LOOK at them exists).
I understand where you are coming from. All you need to do is rule that they do lethal damage (although that does sort of break away from reality, but meh) if you aren't trained in using them, bump the damage up to 1d4, and count them as simple weapons. Bam! Done. I think they should really count as simple weapons anyway, but meh. If you do that, then most every class has proficiency with them. The fists deal 1d4 damage, about how much a knife deals. That sort of makes sense. All weapons just take a -4 penalty, but the Unarmed Strike deals nonlethal damage, which seems to be the designers attempting to model realism. If you do this, then they move up to being really similar to normal weapons.

Also, the biggest thing the greatclub has going for it is the cost. Which is stupid.

Also, if you do the above, then you should probably remove Superior Unarmed Strike from existence, because it kind of makes Unarmed Strikes better than any weapon, since it scales with level.


I refuse to be drawn into another "your examples are bad and you should feel bad" discussion. I need to learn to stop using examples with you. :smalltongue:
I never said you should feel bad! Your examples weren't even that bad, I just didn't necessarily agree with them. In an argument, conversation, whatever, a person and a person's ideas should be separated out. Similarly to how an argumentum ad hominem is bad form, proving that someone's ideas don't necessarily apply (which I might not have even done, IDK), that does not and never will mean that person is bad, or wrong. You should never feel bad about your opinions, they are yours, and there is nothing wrong with them (provided they don't hurt someone, etc. You understand my point!).


...what, exactly, was your point? I'm getting a lot of "your examples are bad and you should feel bad", but not anything specifically against my actual argument, that of the yardstick things are measured by. I'll admit, this is mostly because I use examples to illustrate the point a lot, and you like to argue against examples not the point behind them, thus causing us to yell frantically at something that the other guy isn't actually saying (we do this a lot, can't you tell?).
I can kind of tell, however my point is basically; the designers are trying to create a fantastic world, with realistic characters. They didn't do too well on some fronts, but for the most part, at low levels where the characters aren't actually that fantastic yet, the characters are realistic and the world is strange, alien, undiscovered, and dangerous. This was part of the point of the game. They tried to make the players feel lowly, and then move their power up, and up, and up. They became fantastic as the world around them, increasingly more powerful and more powerful. This is a part of a lot of fantasy games, allowing the characters to progress and keeping you still attached to them. You feel attached to the characters, and as their achievements, and you feel for the character as they progress.

Basically, it was intentional. They gave you an, admittedly suboptimal, option for increasing UAS damage (Monk). This decision isn't wrong, just different. If you dislike it, change it. However, just as you deserve your opinion, so do they. And, although they seriously ****ed up higher levels, people still play. People like the gritty, people like the high power, some like both. There are options for both. It is mostly just a stylistic choice. If you dislike it, change it. You are free to do so. But you shouldn't really be insulting their stylist choice.


My answer: there is no benefit, only drawbacks, and it is this fundamental measuring error that directly led to all the mechanical problems of 3.5. As a side note, this is why ToB is so beloved, because it represents WotC realizing they ****ed up, and remeasuring mundane by the yardstick of magic, thus equalizing the issue to a much greater degree.
Unfortunately, ToB is not equal to magic, and never will be. I love ToB more than it is possible to imagine, but a well played caster will always have more options to use than a Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade, or any other non-caster class. They gave players more options, and allowed them to do more varied things, but players like ToB because it gives you stuff to do other than "I full attack." or "I move and attack." It didn't make the numbers similar to Spellcasting, it didn't even make them more similar. A well built caster can probably do every single 9th level maneuver in ToB at level 13, at the latest.

Doesn't really have much to do with the argument itself, but I thought I would point that out.

[Epsilon Rose]

If no one would mind, may I through out third position?
WotC messed up unarmed combat. Terribly so. But not because they had fists do to little damage (that makes sense). The problem is the way they treated (or didn't) the things you can do with fists.
The thing that would give unarmed fighting an edge would be the versatility of strikes, but you don't really see that in dnd. Combined with the fact that feinting is a standard action bluff check (it should be an attack action), by raw it is for some reason harder to disarm someone while unarmed, and the grapple rules are just atrocious unarmed isn't allowed to fit the niches it would in real life.

Edit: Oh, and "duel wielding" your fists is just as hard as a pair of rapiers.

[unosarta]

If no one would mind, may I through out third position?
WotC messed up unarmed combat. Terribly so. But not because they had fists do to little damage (that makes sense). The problem is the way they treated (or didn't) the things you can do with fists.
The thing that would give unarmed fighting an edge would be the versatility of strikes, but you don't really see that in dnd. Combined with the fact that feinting is a standard action bluff check (it should be an attack action), by raw it is for some reason harder to disarm someone while unarmed, and the grapple rules are just atrocious unarmed isn't allowed to fit the niches it would in real life.
This is actually a very, very true point, and one that I agree completely with.

[Veklim]

There's a turn up for the books Uno, I agree too! :smallwink:

As such I'm actually toying with the idea of a kinda monk/bard crossover to deal with said shortfallings, all will be clear soon enough!

Once again, the monk has succeeded in creating huge and unending debate! There's a reason I banned them from my campaigns :smalltongue:

[arguskos]

While this debate is interesting, this thread is not the place for it (also, I'm crazy swamped atm and can't devote time to it any longer). Please, start a new thread for such discussion (I think you'll find that the d20/3.5 area will be more than happy to discuss it until your eyes melt).

Is there any commentary re. the Monk, or can we file this one away under "set and match"?

[unosarta]

I don't have any more things to really talk about in that conversation, no prob.

File it away, good sir!