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MammonAzrael
2011-03-28, 08:11 PM
Barbarian

This is the barbarian class for the d20r system (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20_Rebirth). Posted with Fax's permission. Fax is also considering having the barbarian as a set of alternate class features, found here (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Science). Discussion of the class can also be found on the Competitor boards here (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=401). For those not familiar with Fax's d20r, an overview of the differences between it and 3.5 can be found here (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=256). You can find the basics of natures here (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Natures), they may receive their own thread.

Hit Dice: d12

Skill sets: (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18) A barbarian has the warrior skill set and chooses two others.

Prowess: (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Feats) A barbarian receives 6 points of prowess per level.

Table: Barbarian
{table=head]Level|
Base Attack[br]Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|
Fast[br]Movement

1st|+1|+2|+1|+0|Focus, illiteracy, nature (aspect)|+10'

2nd|+2|+3|+1|+0|Intensified focus|+10'

3rd|+3|+3|+2|+1|Uncanny dodge|+10'

4th|+4|+4|+2|+1|Bonus racial feat|+10'

5th|+5|+4|+3|+1|Nature (heart)|+15'

6th|+6/+1|+5|+3|+2|Intensified focus|+15'

7th|+7/+2|+5|+3|+2|Improved uncanny dodge|+15'

8th|+8/+3|+6|+4|+2|Toughened skin|+15'

9th|+9/+4|+6|+4|+3|Bonus racial feat, nature (mind)|+15'

10th|+10/+5|+7|+5|+3|Intensified focus|+20'

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+5|+3|Greater focus|+20'

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+6|+4|Indomitable will|+20'

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+6|+4|Nature (spirit)|+20'

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+6|+4|Bonus racial feat, intensified focus|+20'

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+7|+5|Instantaneous focus|+25'

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+7|+5|Improved toughened skin|+25'

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+8|+5|Nature (soul)|+25'

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+8|+6|Intensified focus|+25'

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+9|+6|Bonus racial feat|+25'

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+9|+6|Singular focus|+30'[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies
A barbarian has proficiency with simple weapons and two other weapon groups, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).

Fast Movement (Ex) [Martial]


A barbarianís land speed is faster than the norm for his race, as indicated on the Table: Barbarian. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarianís speed because of any load carried or armor worn.

Illiteracy


Barbarians are the only characters who do not automatically know how to read and write. A barbarian may spend 2 skill points to gain the ability to read and write all languages he is able to speak.

A barbarian who gains a level in any other class automatically gains literacy. Any other character who gains a barbarian level does not lose the literacy he or she already had.

Nature [Primal, Progressing]


A barbarian deeply in tune with their natures, and may select an aspect tier instinct. At 4th level they may select a heart tier instinct. At 9th level they may select a mind tier instinct. At 13th level you may select a spirit tier instinct. And at 17th level you may select a soul tier instinct.

Focus (Ex) [Primal]


A barbarian can become incredibly focused in combat a certain number of rounds per encounter. While focused, a barbarian temporarily gains either a +4 bonus to Strength or Dexterity, which is chosen when the barbarian gains this ability and cannot be changed. Additionally, he gains a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarianís hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the focus when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.)

While focused, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats.

A barbarian may become focused as a free action on his turn for a number of rounds per encounter equal to 3 + his Hero Value. A barbarian may end his focus as a swift action. At the end of the focus, the barbarian loses the focus modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, canít charge or run) for a number of minutes equal to the number of rounds he spent focused. A barbarian cannot become focused as long as he is fatigued or exhausted.

Intensified Focus (Ex) [Primal, Progressing]


At 2nd level a barbarianís personality starts to show while he is focused. While all barbarians can become focused, each barbarian expresses that concentration and skill in a unique way. Select one of the following augmentations. It becomes a part of your focus, modifying it to best reflect the barbarian. You may select an additional augment at 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th levels. These augments only apply while you are focused.



All allies within 30', yourself included, gain a +1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls and saves against fear effects. You may select this augment multiple times. Each additional time you select it the morale bonus increase by +2 and the range is extended by 10'.

As a swift action, you may add twice the number or rounds remaining in your focus to all your attack and damage rolls for the rest of the turn, and your focus ends at the end of that turn. You are exhausted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted) for 1 minute after ending your focus in this fashion.

As a swift action, you may aim your next blow at a vital area of your opponent. An opponent you threaten must make a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + Intelligence modifier) or the next melee attack you make against them this round automatically threatens a critical if it hits. You may select this augment multiple times. Each time you do you increase the DC by +2 and you receive a +2 bonus to confirming the critical hit granted from this ability.

As a swift action, you may bellow fearsomely. Every enemy that can hear you must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + Charisma modifier) or be shaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#shaken) for 1 round. You may select this augment multiple times. Each time you do increase the DC by 2 and the duration of the shaken condition by 1 round.

As a swift action, you may designate an opponent you can see. You gain a +2 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls and saving throws against the selected opponent. You take an additional penalty to your AC against attacks made by the designated opponent equal to the morale bonus. You may only designate one opponent at a time. You may select this augment multiple times. Each additional time you select it increase the morale bonuses by +2.

As a swift action, you may press your opponents with hammering blows. Every enemy that you make a melee attack against this round must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your class level + Wisdom modifier) or be fatigued (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued) for 1d6 rounds. You may select this augment multiple times. Each time you do increase the DC by 2 and the duration of the fatigued condition by 1 round.

Double the prowess invested in all of your feats.

Double the prowess invested in all of your weapon proficiencies.

You are immune to fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued) and exhaustion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted) and are no longer fatigued once a rage ends. You may select this augment multiple times. Each time you do select two of the following conditions, you are now immune to those as well: cowering (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#cowering), dazed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dazed), fascinated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fascinated), frightened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#frightened), nauseated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#nauseated), panicked (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#panicked), shaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#shaken), sickened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#sickened), stunned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#stunned).

You do not take a -2 penalty to your Armor Class. You may select this augment multiple times. Each additional time you select it you gain a +2 dodge bonus to your AC

You gain 1 additional attack at your highest base attack bonus whenever you perform a full attack. You must have at least 4 other [i]intensified focus augments to select this ability.

You gain a +1 morale bonus to all saving throws and rolling a 1 is no longer an automatic failure (this stacks with the morale bonus normally provided by focus). You may select this augment multiple times. Each additional time you select it the bonus increases by +2.

You gain an extra +2 Strength and +2 Constitution. You may select this augment multiple times.

You gain an extra +2 Dexterity and +2 Constitution. You may select this augment multiple times.

You gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier at the start of each round (temporary hit points donít stack).

You have Evasion. You may select this augment an additional time. If you do you have Improved Evasion instead.

You have Improved Grab. You may select this augment multiple times. Each additional time you select it you gain a +4 bonus to all grapple checks.

You have Mettle.

You have Pounce. You must have at least 2 other intensified focus augments to select this ability.

You ignore up to 5 points of damage reduction and hardness. You may select this augment multiple times. Each additional time you select it increase the damage reduction and hardness ignored by 5.

Your bonus speed from fast movement is doubled.

Your melee attacks deal +1d12 damage. You may select this augment multiple times.

Your reach is increased by 5'. You must have at least 2 other intensified focus augments to select this ability.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex) [Martial]


At 3rd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.

Bonus Racial Feat


At 4th level a barbarian has gotten in touch with his ancestors. He gains a bonus feat with his racial description. He gains another bonus racial feat at 9th, 14th, and 19th levels.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex) [Martial]


At 7th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Toughened Skin (Ex) [Martial]


At 8th level the barbarian gains damage reduction 5/--.

Greater Focus (Ex) [Primal]


At 11th level, a barbarianís bonuses to Strength or Dexterity (depending on what was chosen) and Constitution while he is focused each increase to +6, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +3. The penalty to AC remains at -2.

Indomitable Will (Ex) [Primal]


A barbarian gains a terrific clarity of thought while he is focused, becoming incredibly difficult to influence. At 12th level you may reroll any 1 Will save per focus and use the higher result.

Instantaneous Focus (Ex) [Primal]


At 15th level a barbarian can become focused at a momentís notice. You may become focused at any time, even when itís not your turn or youíre surprised. You can activate your focus as a response to anotherís action.

Improved Toughened Skin (Ex) [Martial]


At 16th level the barbarianís damage reduction increases to 10/--.

Singular Focus (Ex) [Primal]


At 20th level, a barbarianís bonuses to Strength or Dexterity (depending on what was chosen) and Constitution during his rage each increase to +8, and his morale bonus on Will saves increases to +4. The penalty to AC remains at -2.

Updates -

4/5/2011 Added natures
Changed when you get intensified rage from 2nd/5th/8th/11th/14th/17th/20th to 2nd/6th/10th/14th/18th
Changed greater rage to be gained at 11th level
Changed indomitable will to be gained at 12th level
Added toughened skin at 8th level and changed the 16th level one to improved toughened skin
Changed rage to focus (and the other rage-based abilities to focus), and made it clearer that it could be used one per encounter
Modified intensified focus abilities, and add prereqs to some options
Changed the increased morale bonus to allies attack/damage rolls and save vs fear from +1 to +2 when selected additional times
Changed the swift action bellow to increase itís duration by 1 round when selected multiple times
Changed the increased morale bonus to your saves from +1 to +2 when selected additional times
Made the additional attack augment require 4 other augments first.
Made the pounce augment require 2 other augments first
Changed the bonus dice damage from 1d6 to 1d12
Made the reach augment require 2 other augments first
4/6/2011 Changed focus to select either Str or Dex
Changed greater focus and singular focus to reflect Dex option
Modified intensified focus abilities, and add prereqs to some options
Added the augment that removes the AC penalty and adds a dodge bonus
Added a +2 Dex/Con augment
Added the augment that doubles weapon proficiency prowess.
Removed the augment that switched your Str bonus to Dex
4/18/2010 Added keywords to class abilities
Modified intensified focus abilities, and add prereqs to some options
Added the Int-based augment that auto threatens a crit
Added the Wis-based augment that fatigues enemies
Changed the initial duration of the Cha-based shaken from 1d6 rounds to 1 round
Added a note that you count yourself as an ally for the Moral bonus aura

Djinn_in_Tonic
2011-03-28, 08:34 PM
I'm disappointed by this, honestly. Most of d20r is pretty damn cool, but this Barbarian is a bit of a let-down.

Firstly, there are some editing and balancing problems...nowhere does it say how many Rages/day I get, for example. Additionally, some of the Intensified Rage abilities are clearly better than others, to such a great extent that it leaves me quite puzzled (compare reach, an extra attack, or immunity to conditions to, say, +1 to attack/damage/saves against fear).

My biggest problem, however, is how...well...one-dimensional the class is. You rage. You're good at raging. Heck...you're fantastic at raging.

And now your rage is over. Congratulations...you're a Fighter without feats, and you're fatigued to boot. Unless, of course, you took the mandatory "No Fatigue" Intensifier.

I expected options, variety, and excitement in a d20r class. This is just a chassis for a good but ultimately unimpressive Rage re-write.

MammonAzrael
2011-03-28, 09:00 PM
At this point it primarily is a chassis. The barbarian hadn't got much attention at all, and I was looking over various d20r things today when I looked at it again. So I asked Fax if I could post it up for discussion.

I agree that at this point it is pretty much nothing but rage, and a few racial feats. So what would you suggest? What direction would you like to see the barbarian take, what common threads would you see in most barbarians aside from rage? Scouting? Connection with nature? Tribal rituals? Physical improvement and perfection?

As for the intensified rage...yes, the power level varies wildly. When I first wrote them (and still today) I'm unsure of what power level Fax would like for the class, so I've left them scattered across the range of power until that becomes more defined, at which point balancing can occur.

And you're completely right about the rages/day. Needs to be added. Though I'm wondering if it might be better to just do a straight once per encounter.

lesser_minion
2011-03-29, 01:44 PM
I think I'd much rather see the ACFs, to be honest.

The D&D barbarian class has too much in common with the dreadnought (or warblade) class as it is -- the only real difference between the two is that the dreadnought (or warblade) is not necessarily a complete and utter frothing lunatic.

Why does "barbarian" have to mean "lunatic" anyway? I don't think the Huns or the Mongols spent that much time foaming at the mouth. Nor would samurai.

Morty
2011-03-29, 02:00 PM
Looking at this class, I think it might indeed be better to scrap it and use the ACF instead... perhaps also some rage-related style feats. It's not bad, but it's very much a one-trick pony and there's not a lot that could be done... maybe except building the the Barbarian as a light-armored warrior relying on speed. But Ranger and Fencer already cover that role.

MammonAzrael
2011-03-29, 02:35 PM
I am inclined to agree with you that turning the barbarian into a series of ACFs might be the better way to go.

When I wrote this up, several months ago, I remember thinking about the barbarian and what I could do with it, what flavor it had that spoke to me of various abilities. And the primary one was rage. The secondary one was...not much. And with Fax's additional melee classes...well, I just had no idea what a barbarian would focus on. Nothing, at least, that another class wasn't already doing.

Is there anything you can think of the barbarian could focus on, aside from raging, that would help it stand as a class on it's own? Or should we focus on helping turn barbarian into a wide-spread ACF?

Morty
2011-03-31, 06:42 AM
There are three things I can think of:

A primitive, spiritual warrior, aided by his tribal totems and/or ancestors. Problem: it can also be achieved by multiclassing druid with a martial class.
A light-armored, quick warrior relying on mobility instead of brute force. Problem: doesn't mesh with rage as it is now. Plus, fencers and rangers already cover this.
An ultimate survivalist, able to adapt to shifting environment and supernatural powers. Not sure if one can build an effective class around that, though.

Of the three, I think the "totemic barbarian" option is the most viable one, if you were to make a clear distinction between the spirits Druids invoke and the Barbarian's totems.

MammonAzrael
2011-03-31, 04:24 PM
Hmm...I think the first idea might be the strongest. I'll do something thinking on it and see what I come up with (and compare with the druid to make sure it isn't terribly redundant).

The second one, as you say, is already covered.

As for the third, I could see that as being an aspect of the first, as I don't see it being able to offer the variety we're looking for here.

At the very worst we'll come up with a few ideas that could be incorporated into the ACF style barbarian.

Nero24200
2011-03-31, 05:03 PM
There might not be a need to scrap the class. Simply calling it "Berserker" makes the fluff a little easy (getting rid of the "all barbarians seem to be lunatics" theme) and also ties the totem theme in quite well if you want that option.

Morty
2011-03-31, 05:09 PM
Another problem with the totemic barbarian is that it's a bit restrictive fluff-wise... other classes can come from wherever, but the barbarian would be restricted to barbaric, totem-worshipping cultures.
And calling it a "berserker" doesn't fix the problem that "guy who rages" is simply too narrow a concept to make a class.

MammonAzrael
2011-03-31, 06:56 PM
Another problem with the totemic barbarian is that it's a bit restrictive fluff-wise... other classes can come from wherever, but the barbarian would be restricted to barbaric, totem-worshipping cultures.
And calling it a "berserker" doesn't fix the problem that "guy who rages" is simply too narrow a concept to make a class.

That depends. We don't have to tie the totems to things like animals. It may be better to do a sort of domain style thing, where the totems are ideals and concepts. Instead of a wolf or bear or hawk, you have ferocity or strength or finesse.

UserShadow7989
2011-03-31, 07:51 PM
I'm actually a fan of the 'ultimate survivalist' idea, as a barbarian always struck me as someone coming from a harsher way of life and adapting to a dog eat dog world through strength.

For implementing it, the barbarian could gain benefits when at a disadvantage, such as being outnumbered or below half their maximum hit points. Maybe the ability to sacrifice hit points for bonuses to physical activity-related checks and fighting actions? An effect that prolongs rage in exchange for gradual damage would tie it together nicely.

To add to that, basically useful abilities for traveling would help- larger carrying capacity, needing less sleep/can rest in medium armor without penalties, minor hp recovery after an encounter, morale bonuses when protecting or assisting 'tribe mates' with skill checks, bonuses to a selected skill, and so on. Something geared towards thriving in harsh conditions and adaptability.

MammonAzrael
2011-03-31, 10:16 PM
I lik that approach, but I feel lik it is either too specific or too vague. It doesn't offer enough diversity, and I suspect it could be folding into a totem/ideal angle.

Possibly something sort of like the mantles from the scrapped paladin.

I'm also thinking that renaming the class, and especially Rage (to battle focus or something) might be in order to divorce the class from it's anger issues.

Morty
2011-04-01, 06:20 AM
I too like the "ultimate survivalist" concept, but I'm not sure it can work as a fundament for a base class. It's more of a PrC concept.
As for the "totemic barbarian" idea - broadening the totems/spirits/whatever we call them is probably a step in the right direction. It'd allow the barbarians to come from a wider variety of backgrounds. After all, it's perfectly possible for a city-born person to reject civilization and seek perfection in primitivity. Caution would be required to differentiate it from the druid's spirits. I'm thinking maybe the barbarian's totemic abilities would require material foci - he'd have to tie them to tatoos, fetishes, trophies, maybe weapons.
Regarding the name, I don't think it's strictly necessary... but I suppose it could be helpful.

MammonAzrael
2011-04-04, 04:52 PM
So afroakuma and Fax were working on something that would have applied to both barbarians and rangers, but it got sideboarded for other tasks.

They were working on natures (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Natures), which feels a lot like the direction we've been angling towards in giving the barbarian more variety.

Obviously, they're not finished, but what do you think? Could they be the answer to the barbarian's lack of variety?

Fax Celestis
2011-04-04, 06:29 PM
I certainly think so. That's why we started developing them.

UserShadow7989
2011-04-04, 07:04 PM
I approve of the Natures concept, though I wonder how Barbarian and Ranger will be differentiated from each other when they use the same system. Maybe Barbarian's basic abilities are based on firepower and endurance, while the ranger is more evasive and supportive?

MammonAzrael
2011-04-04, 07:09 PM
Edited the wrong post...I'm afraid this one has now been lost. :smalltongue:

Morty
2011-04-05, 09:14 AM
Adding Natures is a step in the right direction, I think, but Rage still needs to be more varied. There should be rage variants offering different bonuses and penalties.

MammonAzrael
2011-04-05, 02:47 PM
Ok, I've updated the class with a number of changes, which you can see in the "updates" section. I've incorporated the natures (at a lower level than the nature page indicates), reduced the number of intensified focuses, and eliminated the dead levels.

I made the nature gains at lower levels because I thought that since the barbarian is the main class that gets them, we don't want the Soul instincts to be so underused, only being available at 20th level.

With that, I think Singular Focus needs to be improved so it is a more respectable capstone.

Morty, I'm glad you like the natures. With the variants, are you thinking something like ACFs, or a built in variance to the focus? As it stands you can select an augment to shift the Str bonus to Dex, but I'm thinking of just making you choose Str or Dex when you gain your focus ability. I'd like to include at least one augment that is based off of Int and one off of Wis, so that all the stats are covered and no nature will feel ignored or have no synergies.

Morty
2011-04-05, 03:23 PM
I was thinking in terms of ACFs like the one in Cityscape, yes. However, with Natures and Intensified Focus, I'm not sure if they're necessary. They were neat alternatives for the PHB Barbarian, but that class was a one-trick pony. Simply allowing the Barbarian to choose the ability that's augmented with his Focus when he gets the ability may be enough.

MammonAzrael
2011-04-05, 05:01 PM
Given that it is now Focus instead of Rage, I don't think that would be out of flavor.

Since the barbarian is still a very physical class, I'm thinking that when they gain the focus ability, they choose either Strength or Dexterity, and from then on that is the stat that focus increases in addition to Constitution (it always boosts Con since that is what focus is based on).

The three mental attributes could receive some more love with intensified focus, giving all the natures decent support and really leaving a huge amount of variety for customizing your focus.

Fax Celestis
2011-04-05, 08:09 PM
The three mental attributes could receive some more love with intensified focus, giving all the natures decent support and really leaving a huge amount of variety for customizing your focus.

Actually, I'd save that for a rage mage sort of PrC. You could, however, include a DC adjustment while focused for Nature powers.

MammonAzrael
2011-04-05, 08:25 PM
Actually, I'd save that for a rage mage sort of PrC. You could, however, include a DC adjustment while focused for Nature powers.

That came out a little more extreme than I intended. Basically I was just saying that I want to add a swift action ability that uses Int and one that uses Wis, joining the fear-inducing roar that uses Cha. So that all three mental attributes have some ability. Nothing more than that. :smallsmile:

Morty
2011-04-06, 07:09 AM
Choosing Strength or Dexterity for the purposes of Focus definetly sounds good. Introducing Intensified Rage abilities using the mental stats is also a decent idea, as long as they're not too pronounced. Barbarian should remain a physical class. Either way, there's a lot more variety in the class now.

MammonAzrael
2011-04-06, 02:52 PM
Yeah...I'm having a bit of trouble coming up with an Int based and Wis based ability that makes sense to function off of those attributes.

For Int...I'm thinking something tactical? Not sure it's there is a way for it to be an Int-based save, but maybe a bonus to the various combat maneuvers (trip, feint, etc)?

For Wis...I'm not sure...maybe some kind of insight or something?

And I agree that the barbarian should remain a primarily physical class, so I'm thinking that each mental attribute gets only one intensified focus ability. That way all the natures are reasonable and have some cross-ability support. On top of that, I'm thinking of making the Cha-based bellow only once per encounter instead of every round.

Morty
2011-04-06, 04:13 PM
I'd see an Int-based focus abililty as someting either related to tactics or adaptability. I'm leaning towards the latter, since tactics and special manuevers are supposed to be the domain of Dreadnaughts and Warlords. I suppose a bonus to the DC of abilities provided by Natures could work, but I'm not sure if it would be balanced.
For Wis, I'd choose something willpower-related. Perhaps an ability to even better shrug off mind-affecting effects.

MammonAzrael
2011-04-06, 04:20 PM
You're right, the tactical abilities are really more the purview of other classes, and we don't want to be stepping on their toes...or making it a nearly automatic dip. I like the adaptability idea...perhaps an immediate action to add Int to your AC or something?

The problem with the will-power related angle for Wisdom is..well, they're already going to be pretty impressive. They'll have the boost from being focused, presumably a solid Wisdom modifier, and eventually Indomitable Will. Wouldn't another ability just be...rather excessive? Though to be honest I kind of drawing a blank for what else it could be.

Morty
2011-04-06, 04:45 PM
Another idea for an Int-based ability would be Int bonus against combat manuevers - this way, the barbarian wouldn't actually be very good at them, but it would be hard to get an upper hand on him. That said, adding Int to AC as an immediate action works as well.
And I see your point regarding the willpower enchancement. If I were to come up with something else... perhaps a bonus to critical hits of some sort? Explained by a finely refined killer instinct or something in this vein.

MammonAzrael
2011-04-06, 07:40 PM
I think those are both really solid ideas, and may be implemented. I was hoping to come up with two swift/immediate action abilities that required saves, as I feel that is more interesting than a plane numerical bonus. Of course, that will only happen if I can think of decent abilities! :smalltongue:

Morty
2011-04-08, 12:39 PM
I'm glad that you like them. Immediate actions would indeed be good, but even if you come up with decent ones, they might not be something Fax wants, if I understand his intentions correctly.

Fax Celestis
2011-04-08, 12:56 PM
No, they are. Just everyone should have equal access to them. In core, being a spellcaster immediately meant getting another kind of action, since nothing that wasn't a spell could use a swift action.

MammonAzrael
2011-04-09, 04:01 PM
Given the aggressive nature of the barbarian, I've been thinking that both abilities should be offensive in nature.

I'm considering an Int-based Reflex save or the next attack the barbarian makes is a crit if it hits (or an increased crit chance), as the barbarian finds the perfect places to strike.

And a Wis-based Fortitude save or any creature attacked by the barbarian is fatigued for a round, as the barbarian's focus allows him to intuitively know when and where his attacks will strain and tire the opponent the most.

Thoughts?

Doc Roc
2011-04-09, 04:32 PM
What is the target tier here?

Fax Celestis
2011-04-09, 04:40 PM
What is the target tier here?

Somewhere between two and three.

Doc Roc
2011-04-09, 04:47 PM
So:

A Level 5 Barbarian is faced with a sheer 50ft canyon. Due to his own... endeavors, the flood has washed out the bridge. How does he cross?

A Level 5 Barbarian is being harried by a Hellcat during the day. How does he track it and kill it?

A Level 5 Barbarian is being addressed by the courtiers of the Emperor, who want him to pay taxes. How does he weasel out?

MammonAzrael
2011-04-10, 01:48 AM
Well...

If the 50 ft. canyon is still flooded, then swim checks will be the easy method. If it isn't, then you're facing a larger challenge. The natures aren't completed, but they're the best chance at flying through this challenge. Otherwise...100 ft. of rope and grappling hook? Flight isn't really an ability that fits a barbarian...though long jumping I can see.

After glaring at your DM for sending a CR 7 creature against your level 5 lonesome, I'm not sure what you'll do. Thus far the barbarian doesn't really have much to handle invisible enemies. Blind-Fight (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Feats#Blind-Fight_.5BInvesting.5D) is his best bet, I think...but that isn't a feature of the class, rather a feat.

The Intimidate skill should work well here.

Doc Roc
2011-04-10, 09:24 AM
Would it make a difference if the barbarian was ECL 7, and there were two?

He's tier four, by my guess.

MammonAzrael
2011-04-19, 01:01 AM
I'm working on the class right now, adding keywords and some abilities...do you have any suggestions for ways to bring the class up a tier, aside from working on finishing the Natures (and making sure the natures offer plenty of non-combat related bonuses)?

I mean, natures and skills are really the ways in which a barbarian will interact with the world in a non-combat fashion. Unless you can think of anything else that fits thematically?

UserShadow7989
2011-04-19, 06:22 AM
Hm... In primitive tribes, one would be expected to pick up a skill or trade that helps the tribe as a whole. Maybe represent that by having them select one skill set and giving them a bonus when making skill checks for skills from that set, let them pick an additional skill set to add to the ones they have, or allow them to choose an improving feat they get X free prowess for in every X levels?

Giving them a boost to carrying capacity/strength checks to break objects certainly opens doors (and walls), the former letting them lug around more equipment without taking penalties and the latter allowing them to create shortcuts or brute force their way through locked or barricaded doors/paths.

Perhaps their move speed bonus can apply to swim and climb speeds as well? Being able to scale walls or swim through a river quickly is a small touch that can help out once in a blue moon.

Another possibility is the ability to inflict fear effects or stun a target while 'focused'. Perhaps a war cry or series powerful blows or an air of cold efficiency affects their enemies? How about the ability to ignore the first few points of DR on a target when focused?

I'm reaching with some of these and half asleep, but just some additional options to consider.

Morty
2011-04-19, 09:36 AM
I honestly don't think this class is tier four. If nothing else, it can do everything the PHB barbarian can do, and the PHB barbarian is tier three. He can't bypass skill checks, but why should he? Skills are there for a reason. He won't be using all of them obviously, because no class is supposed to be self-reliant.

UserShadow7989
2011-04-19, 11:16 AM
Barbarians in 3.5e are tier four, actually. They have one good thing- Rage- and little else going for them. Trap Sense doesn't have the matching Disable Device to go with it, and the Fast Movement doesn't scale past the first 10 ft. (making it mostly minor at higher levels).

Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge is good but not enough to carry a class, the Rage Improvements are decent but come too late, Will Save bonus is nice but not extremely helpful, and Damage Reduction is nice but so low in number that it's only average.

So they have two genuinely good things they can do (Rage and Imp. Uncanny Dodge), both of which are only helpful for dealing with straightforward combat and fights you've properly prepared for.

This remix, if I had to guess, is around lower/mid tier three once the Natures are completed and factored in.

Morty
2011-04-19, 11:32 AM
So he is. Looks like I was misremembering it. Oh, well. I suppose that the Natures might be enough to elevate the class.

lesser_minion
2011-04-19, 12:15 PM
Would it make a difference if the barbarian was ECL 7, and there were two?

He's tier four, by my guess.

I'm not sure that being tier 4 is really a problem though.

Tier four is defined as one of two different things:

Able to do one thing quite well, but not able to contribute when that thing isn't useful or appropriate.
Able to do many things to a reasonable degree of competence without ever truly shining.

While the first form might be pretty horrible, the second form seems OK to me.

Overall, I think tier 3.5 is closer to the ideal balance point for D&D than tier 2.5. Tier 3.5 would imply a default scenario where the players have enough to win if they stay on the ball, whereas tier 2.5 implies that the characters will have far more than they need to deal with virtually anything they are likely to face.

Doc Roc
2011-04-19, 01:08 PM
I'm not sure that being tier 4 is really a problem though.

Tier four is defined as one of two different things:

Able to do one thing quite well, but not able to contribute when that thing isn't useful or appropriate.
Able to do many things to a reasonable degree of competence without ever truly shining.

While the first form might be pretty horrible, the second form seems OK to me.

Overall, I think tier 3.5 is closer to the ideal balance point for D&D than tier 2.5. Tier 3.5 would imply a default scenario where the players have enough to win if they stay on the ball, whereas tier 2.5 implies that the characters will have far more than they need to deal with virtually anything they are likely to face.

Have you looked at cleric? Or any of the casters? They're hardly diminished in power at all. Maybe they're pushed down to tier two.


I honestly don't think this class is tier four. If nothing else, it can do everything the PHB barbarian can do, and the PHB barbarian is tier three. He can't bypass skill checks, but why should he? Skills are there for a reason. He won't be using all of them obviously, because no class is supposed to be self-reliant.

Barb is t4. Even with the excellent material available for him in supplementals, such as the instantaneous rage, intimidating rage, imperious command combo meal for playing Doctor Shouts. This class will be lucky to be Tier 4.

lesser_minion
2011-04-19, 02:06 PM
Have you looked at cleric? Or any of the casters? They're hardly diminished in power at all. Maybe they're pushed down to tier two.

I'm pretty sure I did say that it was an 'ideal'.

I haven't looked at the cleric in any real detail, although I know what has been done to it. I've mostly been ignoring the casters, since for the most part I don't think Fax is really doing enough to change them.

MammonAzrael
2011-04-19, 02:32 PM
Hm... In primitive tribes, one would be expected to pick up a skill or trade that helps the tribe as a whole. Maybe represent that by having them select one skill set and giving them a bonus when making skill checks for skills from that set, let them pick an additional skill set to add to the ones they have, or allow them to choose an improving feat they get X free prowess for in every X levels?

Giving them a boost to carrying capacity/strength checks to break objects certainly opens doors (and walls), the former letting them lug around more equipment without taking penalties and the latter allowing them to create shortcuts or brute force their way through locked or barricaded doors/paths.

Perhaps their move speed bonus can apply to swim and climb speeds as well? Being able to scale walls or swim through a river quickly is a small touch that can help out once in a blue moon.

Another possibility is the ability to inflict fear effects or stun a target while 'focused'. Perhaps a war cry or series powerful blows or an air of cold efficiency affects their enemies? How about the ability to ignore the first few points of DR on a target when focused?

I'm reaching with some of these and half asleep, but just some additional options to consider.

Well these barbarians should be limited to just primitive tribes, but I like the skill boost. I could see that as a singular ability, or part of one of the lower tiers of instincts.

I could see the breaking things angle, but I think that is already covered by pumping up in a Focus (and taking the intensified focus ability to ignore hardness if they wish).

I like having their movement apply to other modes...perhaps at half the bonus. Doesn't really help with the tier issue, but it is a nice touch.

Read the intensified focus abilities. :smallsmile:


This remix, if I had to guess, is around lower/mid tier three once the Natures are completed and factored in.


So he is. Looks like I was misremembering it. Oh, well. I suppose that the Natures might be enough to elevate the class.

Hmm...I think I need to give natures their own thread, and start to work filling those out.


<snip> tier opinions

I'd like to hit tier 3 if possible, as versatility is a wonderful thing.


Have you looked at cleric? Or any of the casters? They're hardly diminished in power at all. Maybe they're pushed down to tier two.


I'm pretty sure I did say that it was an 'ideal'.

I haven't looked at the cleric in any real detail, although I know what has been done to it. I've mostly been ignoring the casters, since none of them seem to be changing enough for me to actually like them.

True, while there are some playable caster chassis, none of them really feel solidly finished. The cleric has been notably limited it it's caster list, which is the biggest restriction. I don't know if Fax is planning to rewrite spells to balance things out, but AFAIK there haven't been any rumblings of doing so.

Fax Celestis
2011-04-19, 07:38 PM
I haven't looked at the cleric in any real detail, although I know what has been done to it. I've mostly been ignoring the casters, since for the most part I don't think Fax is really doing enough to change them.

Severe spell access restriction is a pretty big deal.


True, while there are some playable caster chassis, none of them really feel solidly finished. The cleric has been notably limited it it's caster list, which is the biggest restriction. I don't know if Fax is planning to rewrite spells to balance things out, but AFAIK there haven't been any rumblings of doing so.

I am 3.2% done (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Spells). I will be rewriting for clarity and for balance, as required.

lesser_minion
2011-04-20, 01:36 PM
Severe spell access restriction is a pretty big deal.

While that is technically a change, it's not what I meant.

You haven't made any changes to the nature of cleric spellcasting beyond the move to spontaneous, which isn't really anything to write home about.

I'm still not sure why you abandoned your version 1.0 cleric, tbh.

Fax Celestis
2011-04-20, 04:18 PM
I'm still not sure why you abandoned your version 1.0 cleric, tbh.

Because a system revamp takes less time than a system rewrite, and since I am familiar with the existing material I can patch holes in the meantime, rather than possibly creating new holes.

MammonAzrael
2011-04-21, 07:48 PM
Well it seems like discussion of the barbarian can't really advance until the natures are more defined. Given that they're potentially features for both the barbarian and the ranger (and possibly others), I think its time they get their own thread.

Thinking on it, I'm growing to like natures more and more. It feels like a way for non-casters to have a common link, in the same way that spellcasting can link multiple different classes through variation. Anyways, I'll write up a post a new thread for them tonight.