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HMS Invincible
2011-03-29, 02:28 AM
What are the best Innate attacks to pay for? We're doing this cinematic movie/One Piece world where if u eat magic fruit, you get magic powers. The only draw back is you can't have more than one fruit and the ocean causes paralysis for fruit eaters.
I have a 200 pointbuy character, and I wanted to mess around with say a 30-70 point investment in innate attacks. I haven't decided between 2 attacks. The first one, I took the 300 RoF, crushing and added a couple levels of damage to get around DR. Originally, I wanted to do something thematic like half power except in emergencies and some fatigue cost, but I felt was too restricting. The difference between emergencies and not is usually you lying on the ground unconscious.

The second attack is much more subtle. I used a no signature mod, added 3 dice of damage, and made it fatigue damaging. Lastly, I reduced the cast time from 1 second to 0. One of the free mods was that it suffocates people, which causes 1 fatigue damage per second and eventually kills them. I think suffocating causes stunning, not exactly sure.

I like how making it cost fatigue points is thematically, but its really lame that it reduces your point cost by 5%, but to get more fatigue points, it costs you 3 xp points. Is there a mod that I overlooked that allows you to charge up your attack with fatigue points? You could do it with spells, but I didn't see it in the enhancements or limitations section. The math behind it is really bad though.
Say you make an innate attack cost FP at 10% reduction in cost in exchange for costing 2 FP to cast. Now you are limited to 5 casts per battle for a 10 health character or in reality, 3 casts else you'll be crippled. On a 50point attack, that gains you 5 points, or enough to increase the dice by 1.

steelsmiter
2011-03-29, 11:55 AM
What are the best Innate attacks to pay for? We're doing this cinematic movie/One Piece world where if u eat magic fruit, you get magic powers. The only draw back is you can't have more than one fruit and the ocean causes paralysis for fruit eaters.
I have a 200 pointbuy character, and I wanted to mess around with say a 30-70 point investment in innate attacks. I haven't decided between 2 attacks. The first one, I took the 300 RoF...

Cosmic: No Dice Roll if you can afford it. :smallbiggrin: Have a nice day with that

Connington
2011-03-29, 06:10 PM
300 RoF is useless, because your shots that hit will only be equal to your margin of success. So if you have a 16, and you roll a 6, ten shots hit. Unless you have Skill 300, RoF 300 is wasted points.

What you should do instead is buy a maximum RoF equal to twice your Innate Attack skill minus three. Then add in the ridiculously cheap Very Rapid Fire modifier from GURPS Powers, which gives lets two shots hit for every point you succeed by. Now add more dice of innate attack, and buy up a better Innate Attack skill, for a better margin of success.

For comparisons sake:

A pistol deals 2d+2 damage, and won't reliably put a normal human down with one shot
An assault rifle deals 5d damage, and has a good chance of putting down a normal person in one hit
A sniper rifle deals 8-9d damage, and will probably kill anyone
Anything above 15d is enough to reliably damage armored cars, bust down doors, and make chunky salsa out of people.

HMS Invincible
2011-03-29, 06:55 PM
300 RoF is useless, because your shots that hit will only be equal to your margin of success. So if you have a 16, and you roll a 6, ten shots hit. Unless you have Skill 300, RoF 300 is wasted points.

What you should do instead is buy a maximum RoF equal to twice your Innate Attack skill minus three. Then add in the ridiculously cheap Very Rapid Fire modifier from GURPS Powers, which gives lets two shots hit for every point you succeed by. Now add more dice of innate attack, and buy up a better Innate Attack skill, for a better margin of success.

For comparisons sake:
A pistol deals 2d+2 damage, and won't reliably put a normal human down with one shot
An assault rifle deals 5d damage, and has a good chance of putting down a normal person in one hit
A sniper rifle deals 8-9d damage, and will probably kill anyone
Anything above 15d is enough to reliably damage armored cars, bust down doors, and make chunky salsa out of people.
Aren't you forgetting the bonus you get for having a high RoF? The table goes up to +6 and its an additional +1 for every doubling of RoF beyond the table. Where is the very rapid fire option? Is it the option that makes my attack like a shotgun? It appears to be free.

DukeofDellot
2011-03-29, 10:16 PM
Are you sure you want the best?

Or do you want something even better (http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=239055&postcount=216)?

...

But seriously, what are you trying to model here?

Cybren
2011-03-29, 10:49 PM
"best" is whatever models the effect you want most effeciently

HMS Invincible
2011-03-30, 01:49 AM
Well, how about this: What's the most amount of damage can I get through and spend the least amount of points?

Connington
2011-03-30, 02:05 AM
Aren't you forgetting the bonus you get for having a high RoF? The table goes up to +6 and its an additional +1 for every doubling of RoF beyond the table. Where is the very rapid fire option? Is it the option that makes my attack like a shotgun? It appears to be free.

That's mildly helpful, but do the math. If you literally have RoF 300, you only have +7 to hit. Let's assume that you have a phenomenal skill 20, and you roll a 3 (and let's ignore the critical hit to focus on how effective rapid fire is). After factoring in the rapid fire bonus, 24 shots hit. That's a best case scenario, and you're still wasting 9/10 of your potential shots.

And Very Rapid Fire is from GURPS Powers, so that might not work for you, come to think of it. Shotguns work differently.

Anyways, you obviously don't have a specific power or attack in mind, so I think asking those sorts of questions won't lead anywhere. Instead, you need to figure out what you're using this attack for, and who you're probably going to be fighting. The quickest way to kill high DR foes looks nothing like the easiest way to kill armies of normal humans, which in turn looks nothing like the cheapest way to quietly and non-lethally take out opponents.

HMS Invincible
2011-03-30, 07:40 AM
Thank you for your input, and you given me a bit to think about. I think what I'll do is just save up my points, and just buy a bare bones innate attack that is comparable to a rifle. I'll decide if I want to be a stealthy assassin or anti-crowd guy based on the setting of the campaign. I don't really understand One-Piece, so it'll be funny while I stumble around getting the hang of the setting. I was hoping for versatility but I see that I have to specialize based on the kind of attacker.

I'm not sure if this is a high lethality, gritty campaign, or some 4th edition multi-round swing fest. Either I'm gonna stealth up on a guy, and shoot him just for him to tank the bullet and pummel me into the ground. Or I'm all set for close combat, and they shoot me dead from 100 yards out.

steelsmiter
2011-03-30, 01:22 PM
also Cosmic, No Roll Required assumes you get the best possible margin of success without assuming crits.

DukeofDellot
2011-03-31, 12:53 PM
You know, if you're not sure what to prepare for, you could build a character that has good ability in many situations. Assuming this is, in fact, an over-the-top, silly pirate game... for example...

He's a showy chef that juggles knives, boastful and confident, though he always feels under appreciated by his crew that think his job is just to feed them... Upon eating the magic fruit his body bloated and inflated, with a heavy layer of fat protecting a sack of gas that lets him spit fire.


Innate attack (Burning) either jet or just strait up projectile, maybe with peperation required (must eat gaseous foods... beans, broccoli), and DR (Ablative) to represent the layer of fat, Probably twenty points worth... which will basically double your survivability and give you an offensive ability.

Skills include: Cooking, Knife, Thrown Weapon (Knife), Hobby (Juggling), Innate Attack (Breath), Savoir-Faire (High Society), Carousing, Diplomacy, Acting, Fast Talk, Guns (Pistol), Gesture, Stealth, Body Language, Crewman/TL, Intimidate, and whatever else you'd want.

Other ideas include:

A human cannon, he can shapeshift, his other form sacrifices the ability to move, for the ability to do ridiculous amounts off damage... though it requires the aid of a fellow crewman. Usually you can get this ability for [10] points... so build him to be an all around dude beyond that.

A sword juggler that can wield six blades at once, and when he throws his blades, they magically return. Built as an innate attack give RoF 6 to a cutting attack that has a short range, requires specifically designed blades.

The man that can fly... by the seat of his pants. Your character has flight... but can't hover... infact you can't slow down. And it leaves an awful smell making your movement easy to track. But you'd never really have to worry about that water weakness, unless someone shot you down.

HMS Invincible
2011-03-31, 06:17 PM
Ok, the GM passed out a hat full of positions and roles for our ship and told us some more about this.
We have a doctor/shipwright, captain/gunner?, cook/pilot, and me the first mate/musician.
The TL level is 4 with an emphasis on revolvers, not any rifles that are any good. The dodge mechanic is capped at 10, with +2 max from cloaks and shields.
Skills include: Cooking, melee (quarterstaff), Innate Attack, musical instrument, Diplomacy, Fast Talk, Guns (Pistol), Stealth, Crewman/TL, shipwrighting?, piloting, and maybe leadership. Since I'm firstmate, I serve as a backup to everyone else on the ship. I'll be the only fruit user(innate attack) in the crew and there's no magic in general, only fruit users.

This will eat up more points than I intended, but that's ok, I'll just invest less in my innate attack. I don't have to be good at support, I just have to be able to replace people, if poorly.

Here's my innate attack: Fatigue damaging, suffocating, no signature, reduced cast time, 3 dice of damage.
Question, is it worth paying the double the points to get flight over walk on air?

DukeofDellot
2011-04-01, 12:12 AM
When trying to go vertical while walking on air, you have to climb it as if up a staircase or ladder... which is typically a lot slower than how fast you can run. Flight starts out at double speed and isn't restricted by direction. Plus it's easier to work with when you get into modifiers, plus it's got plenty of specials.

If your character has wings (large), then it only costs 24. If you also cannot hover, you may still circle around your targets, and it will end up costing less than walk on air.

...

You never stated the thematics behind your innate attack.

HMS Invincible
2011-04-03, 05:28 AM
Update: I just got through a game, and here's what happened: Reduced time doesn't work with innate attack, and he said I wasn't allowed to use "no signature" by DM fiat.
The DM said my attack consists of napkins being shot at their their face, suffocating them. It's funny, but the counter is kinda easy since he declared it an unknown STR roll to stop being suffocated and rip the napkins off. That's pretty lame, but I didn't know how long or hard it is to cure suffocating normally, so I ran with it. I usually disable most combatants in 2 hits, but it takes about 4 hits since I deal half damage beyond 10 yards. My attempts at stealthiness were quickly shot down and everybody quickly found out, much to my displeasure since I just met them. =\

Other notes: Dodge is a pain in the butt to deal with and delays me unnecessarily. What mod is best to get around it?

DukeofDellot
2011-04-05, 12:15 PM
You mean enemies dodging your attacks?

Use deceptive attacks (technique, not a modifer).

When attacking, declare a deceptive and a number, say... "Deceptive 3", then you roll at your skill with a penalty double the number, and your opponent must take that value as a penalty to active defense. In this example, it would be Innate Attack (Projectile)-6, then they would have a dodge-3. The thing is, Dodge is rare to see above an 11, and 12 is as high as I've ever seen it. 12 - 3 is already under 50% dodge rate, and more reasonable dodge scores are totally dwarfed by it.

So work on getting your Innate attack skill around 18. If you are currently around 16, use deceptive 2 attacks. It's a very important technique that often gets forgotten.

HMS Invincible
2011-04-05, 03:45 PM
You mean enemies dodging your attacks?

Use deceptive attacks (technique, not a modifer).

When attacking, declare a deceptive and a number, say... "Deceptive 3", then you roll at your skill with a penalty double the number, and your opponent must take that value as a penalty to active defense. In this example, it would be Innate Attack (Projectile)-6, then they would have a dodge-3. The thing is, Dodge is rare to see above an 11, and 12 is as high as I've ever seen it. 12 - 3 is already under 50% dodge rate, and more reasonable dodge scores are totally dwarfed by it.

So work on getting your Innate attack skill around 18. If you are currently around 16, use deceptive 2 attacks. It's a very important technique that often gets forgotten.
Alright, that's free so I'll use that for now. However, I just read that dodge has to crit to avoid a hit from High RoF weapons. So if my Rof is 2 or 3, I can just hope to overcome his dodge by getting in 1 more marginal success than his dodge. Hmmm, now I gotta crunch the numbers on which is better to spend points on.

DukeofDellot
2011-04-05, 05:42 PM
I just read that dodge has to crit to avoid a hit from High RoF weapons.

That's not how it works.

Rapid fire attacks hit one extra time per multiple of recoil in the degree of success. Dodge negates one normally, plus an additional attack per degree of success.

In other words, if you have skill 14, recoil 2, RoF 3, and they have Dodge 10. You roll 10, you "succeed" with all three hits, but if they roll 11 or higher, all three hit; 10, two hit them; 9, one hits; 8 or lower, nothing hits.

A critical success on a dodge will let you negate hundreds of "successes" on a single rapid fire attack.

HMS Invincible
2011-04-06, 05:57 AM
Hmmm, it's more efficient for me because innate attacks have recoil of 1, so upping my RoF is on par if not better than paying 4 points to increase my attack skill(which gives me more points to use deceptive technique).
Edit: I crunched the numbers, and I put too many points into my base innate attack. I'd have to create a new attack to make it worthwhile since +40-70% is pretty pricy at 30 point base. The base price would have to be either 20 or maybe 10.

DukeofDellot
2011-04-06, 09:20 PM
...So...

Does you're character's hand turn into a cannon, when he shoots his napkins?

Like Rockman's buster cannon?

... Except all meaty, since you're not a robot. So you're character would have those Popeye arms? Does he also mutter everything he says?

Cause, you know, you're a sailor.

...

I'm sorry, it just took me this long to process the imagery.

HMS Invincible
2011-04-07, 12:57 AM
Well, there's GURPS on one end, that says my innate attack deals fatigue damage, and then there's the One Piece setting that having control over a category of elements makes you a magic user. Now I just have to fluff so it becomes consistent with the setting's internal logic. I think it's akin to mentally controlling air or just how napkins move. It took me a few tries to figure out how to fluff it correctly or to match the attack type so it makes at least a bit of sense.
The real concern for me is what happens when I face someone with a competing fruit. What if they control fire, or wind, I'd have to figure out a way of still being useful. The other PCs don't have to worry that their pistols just stop working versus a single guy.

DukeofDellot
2011-04-08, 06:18 PM
The other PCs don't have to worry that their pistols just stop working versus a single guy.

Unless the opponent controls water. Gunpowder doesn't work wet, but I bet the napkins would.

...

They are cloth napkins, right?

Knaight
2011-04-09, 11:57 PM
Unless the opponent controls water. Gunpowder doesn't work wet, but I bet it would make the napkins would.

Depending on the level of the firearm technology, getting the gunpowder wet could be difficult. If these fancy things called casings have been invented, good luck with it.

DukeofDellot
2011-04-11, 01:14 AM
Considering the tech level of a pirate game is almost indefinitely going to be in the Tech Level range that guns and swords are both viable options. I'd say that these casings aren't a part of it yet.

Also, I can't believe how horrid my last post was. Fixed... sort of.

HMS Invincible
2011-04-11, 07:34 PM
I just played some and here's some filler: Guns and rifles exist but they're restricted to the Marines, aka not us pirates. So either you're a magic user, or you're stuck with a sword or a bow.
GM flat out said no to deceptive attack, so there goes that option. I'm not sure if I'll have any luck with the RoF alternative to get around dodge. Is there a mod that just flat out says no dodge? Maybe I should go with a gaze attack or something.

Anyway, he wants us to grow our abilities organically, so it'll be fun what I can think up as ways to use napkins. I'm thinking binding powers next.

Hades
2011-04-12, 01:25 AM
Remember that foes can only Dodge attacks they know about (so, no Dodging if shot from ambush or from behind), have -2 if the Attack came from the Side, and can take penalties from Bad Footing or being lower than the attacker or being in Postures other than Standing - basically, you should fight dirty.

Also remember that Retreating Dodge doesn't work against Ranged attacks, that's what Dodge & Drop is for, but that then leaves them Prone on the floor - a nice -3 to Defenses, and it takes them two turns to get out of it, unless they have Acrobatics.