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View Full Version : Improving the "Feat Tax" Feats... Scaling!



The Cat Goddess
2011-04-04, 04:12 PM
Some basic ideas:

1) Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes. +2 to save at 1st level, +1 additional every 4 levels (4/8/12/16/20). This gives a total of +7 to save at level 20.

2) Skill Focus. As above. +2 to skill at 1st level, +1 additional every 4 levels.

3) Dodge. +1 Dodge Bonus to AC. +1 additional every 4 levels. (+6 Bonus at level 20.)

4) Weapon Focus. +1 BAB with specific weapon (longsword/Battle Axe/Unarmed Strike/etc.). +1 BAB additional every 4 levels. This gives a total of +6 BAB at level 20... meaning a Fighter would gain an additional iterative attack with the Focused weapon at 16.

5) Weapon Specialization (requires Weapon Focus, Fighter 4). +2 Damage with Focused Weapon. +1 Damage additional every 2 levels (2/4/6/etc). This gives +12 damage at level 20.

6) Weapon Mastery (requires Weapon Specialization, Fighter 8). Count Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization bonuses as counting for all similar weapons (all Bows, all Swords, all Axes).

7) Sudden Metamagic Feats: 1 use per day. +1 Additional use per day every 5 levels (5/10/15/20). This helps improve Warmages a little, too!

Seerow
2011-04-04, 04:15 PM
I don't think feat tax means what you think it means.

Pigkappa
2011-04-04, 04:18 PM
I don't really like it. For example, Weapon focus gives you a +5% chance to hit. It is not awesome but it's nice, and that's as good at level 1 as it is at level 20.

A +30% to hit sounds really too much (the same for +35% to resist saves).


Damage could scale that way instead, it would be nice. +2 damage is decent at level 1 and sucks at high levels.


Feat tax = a feat that's you just have to take. The one to cast while shapeshifted for druids, for example. Or, the ones to enter PrCs.

Lord Vampyre
2011-04-04, 04:56 PM
Actually, I've always seen a "feat tax" as being required to take a less desirable feat in order to get into a prestige class or for a more desirable feat in a feat chain. Thus the emphasis on the word "tax".

In response to the original post: What about the Improved and Greater version of the feats? If a player we're allowed to take both, and they each scaled the same way, it might be a little unbalancing.

The Cat Goddess
2011-04-04, 04:57 PM
Uh...

I was always told that "Feat Tax" feats were ones that you only got so that you could qualify for a certain PrC or other Feat.

Examples: Nobody gets "Spell Focus: Evil" unless they want to become an Ur-Priest. Nobody gets "Great Fortitude" unless they want to become a Fist of the Forest. Nobody bothers to get "Weapon Focus" unless the PrC they're shooting for requires it.

jiriku
2011-04-04, 06:43 PM
The problem with "feat tax" feats is that they don't do what feats should do: give you the ability to do something spiffy or appreciably better than what someone without the feat can do.

All those lame feats that give you a passive +1 or +2 bonus to something don't provide anything that you can't duplicate with a low-level buff spell or a cheap magic item. You need something that enables your character to do something new and interesting.

Example: If Skill Focus allowed you to pick any one skill to be a class skill for all of your classes, and to take 10 on checks even when under stress, and granted a +3 bonus, it would be a great choice for a lot of builds, especially multiclass builds in which a key skill is needed (ex. bard/anything that doesn't get perform).

You know all the feats that grant +2 to two related skills? How about a Skill Talent feat that lets you pick any two skills that the DM agrees are related, makes them class skills for all of your classes, and gives you a +2 bonus to each? Now the fighter can become a sentry by taking Skill Talent to get Spot and Listen, and the paladin can become a stealthy vigilante by using it to get Hide and Move Silently. Likewise, the Mage Slayer feat chain is a little easier for martial classes if you can get Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft in-class.

Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes could likewise be enhanced. What if once you had one of these feats, you no longer automatically failed that save on a roll of a natural 1? That's a nice little perk that you can't get from too many other places. What if Weapon Focus prevented you from auto-failing an attack roll on a natural 1?

Welknair
2011-04-04, 07:17 PM
I concur with the above. Feats are meant to be something that significantly adds to a character in a notable and extraordinary way. (This is one of the reasons I dislike 4e)

Jiriku, you should make a list of homebrew feats exactly like what you just did there. Those actually make those feats worth something rather than the passive numeric boosts that they currently are.

jiriku
2011-04-04, 07:47 PM
I do. There's sort of, ummm, a problem though. My list has over two hundred feats on it. It's a little too long to post in Homebrew. Maybe I could PDF it and post it on a web server somehow. If only I knew how to do such things.... :smallfrown::smalleek::smallconfused:

Seerow
2011-04-04, 07:49 PM
I do. There's sort of, ummm, a problem though. My list has over two hundred feats on it. It's a little too long to post in Homebrew. :smallfrown::smalleek::smallconfused:

There's a limit to how much you can post in homebrew? :smallconfused:

jiriku
2011-04-04, 07:50 PM
Well, there's a character limit for posts. And I'm not sure anyone would wanna read 40 solid pages of feat revisions. :smalltongue:

Havvy
2011-04-04, 08:48 PM
jiriku: Then you can post them on another site (like a wiki) and then link to them.

Anyways, these feat adjustments do not work. The scaling of these bonuses push creatures off of the RNG more than they are already pushed off. Do you know what a +7 to saves means? It means saving 35% more of the time. Take all three of the feats, and you now have a guy pretty much immune to everything except the basic attack, and that is easy to become immune to.

For the sudden metamagic feats, reflavor them as luck feats and you give a bit of power to them already, since they are now ran off of luck, and give lucky rerolls.

Welknair
2011-04-04, 09:07 PM
Well, there's a character limit for posts. And I'm not sure anyone would wanna read 40 solid pages of feat revisions. :smalltongue:

Multiple posts and spoilers. And I don't know about others, but I'd be willing to read it...

Solaris
2011-04-04, 09:15 PM
If they're as good as the rest of your stuff I've seen, Jiriku, I'm another who'd be interested in seeing it.

jiriku
2011-04-05, 01:41 AM
Hmm.. wiki. That could work. Maybe after I finish with the classes....

Well, anyhow, back on topic. Scaling feats! Some of these I developed on my own, but many of them owe thanks to my players, who have struck many a bold blow for great justice in the name of game balance. My basic rule of thumb is that anything that says "Improved X" or "Greater Y" gets rolled into the original feat as an "unlockable" advancement ability, and anything that provides a simple numeric bonus of +3 or less gets window dressing until it doesn't bore me. A lot of feats provide extremely situational benefits that hardly ever come up - these I tend to just roll into one of their prerequisite feats as either a fringe benefit or an advancement perk.

TANKY FEATS

HEAVY ARMOR OPTIMIZATION [Fighter, General]
You have trained extensively in heavy armor and you have learned to take advantage of the protection it offers.
Prerequisites: Armor Proficiency (heavy), base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you are wearing heavy armor, lessen the armor check penalty of the armor by 1 and increase the armor bonus by 1.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +8 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 3 and increase the armor bonus by 2.
If you have base attack bonus +12 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 5 and increase the armor bonus by 3.
If you have base attack bonus +16 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 7 and increase the armor bonus by 4.

MEDIUM ARMOR OPTIMIZATION [Fighter, General]
You have trained extensively in medium armor and you have learned to take advantage of the protection it offers.
Prerequisites: Armor Proficiency (medium), base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you are wearing medium armor, lessen the armor check penalty of the armor by 1 and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus of the armor by 1.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +8 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 2 and increase the armor bonus and maximum Dexterity bonus by 1.
If you have base attack bonus +12 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 3, increase the armor bonus and maximum Dexterity bonus by 1, and ignore the movement penalty for wearing medium armor.
If you have base attack bonus +16 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 5, increase the armor bonus and maximum Dexterity bonus by 2, and ignore the movement penalty for wearing medium armor.

LIGHT ARMOR OPTIMIZATION [Fighter, General]
You have trained extensively in light armor and you have learned to take advantage of the protection it offers and stay agile while wearing it.
Prerequisites: Armor Proficiency (light), base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you are wearing light armor, increase the maximum Dexterity bonus of the armor by 1.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +8 or greater, instead increase the maximum Dexterity bonus by 2.
If you have base attack bonus +12 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 1 and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus by 3.
If you have base attack bonus +16 or greater, instead lessen the armor check penalty by 2 and increase the maximum Dexterity bonus by 4.

SHOOTY FEATS

FAR SHOT [Fighter, General]
You are far more effective than others when using ranged weapons against distant targets.
Benefit: When using ranged projectile weapons, such as a bow, your range increment is increased by +50%. When using throw weapons, your ranged increment is increased by +100%. You can use ranged weapons in windstorm conditions at a -8 penalty.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +8 or greater, treat wind conditions as one category less severe when determining how difficult it is to use ranged weapons.
If you have base attack bonus +16 or greater, instead treat wind conditions as two categories less severe.
Normal: It is impossible to use ranged weapons in windstorm conditions.
Special: Far Shot can be used in place of Point Blank shot to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. You can take both this feat and Point Blank Shot.

POINT BLANK SHOT [Fighter, General]
You are skilled at making well-placed shots with ranged weapons at close range.
Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet per four levels you have (minimum 1). Additionally, you deal damage as if your ranged weapon was one size larger for each +1 bonus this feat grants you to hit, but only at ranges of up to 30 feet. This stacks with other effects that cause your weapon to deal damage as if it was larger in size. You can use Point Blank Shot with weapon-like spells or spell-like abilities, such as a scorching ray spell or an eldritch blast, but then it provides only a bonus to hit. It does not improve the damage of spells or spell-like abilities.

PRECISE SHOT [Fighter, General]
You are skilled at timing and aiming ranged attacks.
Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard -4 penalty on your attack roll.
Advancement: If you also have Dex 19 or better and base attack bonus +11 or better, you ignore cover and concealment, and when firing into a grapple you never hit the wrong target. Total cover and total concealment still provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks.

STABBITY FEATS

CLEAVE [Fighter, General]
You can follow through with powerful blows.
Prerequisite: Str 13, Power Attack
Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop, you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot make a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.
Advancement: If you have base attack bonus +4 or greater, there is no limit to the number of cleave attempts you can make each round.
If you have base attack bonus +8 or greater, you may take a single 5-foot step between attacks. However, you are still limited to only one 5-foot step per round, and cannot combine a 5-foot step with other movement.

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [Fighter, General, Ranger]
You fight effectively with a weapon in each hand, and you can make extra attacks each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lesses by two and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.
You gain an additional attack at your highest base attack bonus with the offhand weapon. You gain additional attacks with the offhand weapon at progressively lower attack bonuses whenever your base attack bonus grants you additional attacks with your primary weapon.
Advancement: If you have the Weapon Focus feat for each of your weapons and a base attack bonus of +5 or greater, you may reduce the penalty for fighting with a one-handed weapon in your offhand to -1. When you reach base attack bonus +9 or greater, eliminate the penalty entirely.

DUAL STRIKE [Fighter, General]
You are an expert skirmisher skilled at fighting with two weapons. Your extensive training with two weapons allows you to attack with both while moving through a chaotic combat or fighting a running battle.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a melee attack with your primary weapon and an attack with your off-hand weapon. You take the normal penalties for attacking with two weapons.
Advancement: If you also have the Combat Reflexes feat, then you may choose to attack once with both weapons when making an attack of opportunity (incurring the normal penalties for attacking with two weapons).

Ashtagon
2011-04-05, 02:08 AM
Some basic ideas:

1) Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes. +2 to save at 1st level, +1 additional every 4 levels (4/8/12/16/20). This gives a total of +7 to save at level 20.

2) Skill Focus. As above. +2 to skill at 1st level, +1 additional every 4 levels.


The problem with these is that, at high levels, they turn "improved chance of success" into "can't fail". The gap between the have-feat folk and the don't -haves becomes so great that there is no such thing as a challenge in which every character can be engaged.

For this reason, my preferred method of scaling these feats is to offer an increasing number of daily re-rolls on the relevant roll.



3) Dodge. +1 Dodge Bonus to AC. +1 additional every 4 levels. (+6 Bonus at level 20.)

4) Weapon Focus. +1 BAB with specific weapon (longsword/Battle Axe/Unarmed Strike/etc.). +1 BAB additional every 4 levels. This gives a total of +6 BAB at level 20... meaning a Fighter would gain an additional iterative attack with the Focused weapon at 16.

5) Weapon Specialization (requires Weapon Focus, Fighter 4). +2 Damage with Focused Weapon. +1 Damage additional every 2 levels (2/4/6/etc). This gives +12 damage at level 20.

6) Weapon Mastery (requires Weapon Specialization, Fighter 8). Count Weapon Focus & Weapon Specialization bonuses as counting for all similar weapons (all Bows, all Swords, all Axes).

Weapon feats need a radical overhaul. I favour something like BECMI's weapon mastery (similar to weapon mastery system in the free Dark Dungeons).


7) Sudden Metamagic Feats: 1 use per day. +1 Additional use per day every 5 levels (5/10/15/20). This helps improve Warmages a little, too!

Waitwahat? Casters need help?

The Cat Goddess
2011-04-05, 12:09 PM
The problem with these is that, at high levels, they turn "improved chance of success" into "can't fail". The gap between the have-feat folk and the don't -haves becomes so great that there is no such thing as a challenge in which every character can be engaged.

For this reason, my preferred method of scaling these feats is to offer an increasing number of daily re-rolls on the relevant roll.

I tend to disagree. The difference between having the saving throw boost feat (as I revised it) and not having it is the difference between having a "Good" saving throw vs. a "Poor" saving throw. Are you saying that Fighters "can't fail" Fort saves when compared to Rogues?

I had thought about making it "this Feat makes a 'Poor' saving throw into a 'Good' saving throw for your class." But that makes the Feat even less useful to a class that already has it as a 'Good' saving throw... and less useful to Multi-class/Prestige-class characters.

As for the bonus to skills on Skill Focus... I think the primary result will be that people will actually not complain about having to get the Feat.


Weapon feats need a radical overhaul. I favour something like BECMI's weapon mastery (similar to weapon mastery system in the free Dark Dungeons).

This was mainly just a quick-and-dirty fix idea... the main point I had was that Weapon Focus could add +BAB, which would increase iterative attacks (and/or allow greater Power Attack). Since everyone seems to view higher level games as "rocket tag", an additional +6 to hit at level 20 when you're already always hitting every time, period, isn't that big a deal.


Waitwahat? Casters need help?

Nobody takes the Sudden Metamagic Feats by choice as-is. Why? Because once-a-day is stupid.

As for Luck Feats... unless you've got 4+ Luck Feats, they are too weak. And if you do have 4+ Luck Feats, it's the majority of your build.

Ashtagon
2011-04-05, 12:15 PM
I tend to disagree. The difference between having the saving throw boost feat (as I revised it) and not having it is the difference between having a "Good" saving throw vs. a "Poor" saving throw. Are you saying that Fighters "can't fail" Fort saves when compared to Rogues?

True, but the difference between a poor save and a good save with this feat is +13. That's a big enough gap that a challenge will either be trivially overcome or unfairly hard.

Gamer Girl
2011-04-05, 12:24 PM
The problem with "feat tax" feats is that they don't do what feats should do: give you the ability to do something spiffy or appreciably better than what someone without the feat can do.

All those lame feats that give you a passive +1 or +2 bonus to something don't provide anything that you can't duplicate with a low-level buff spell or a cheap magic item. You need something that enables your character to do something new and interesting.

This is a great idea. To give all the '+' feats a couple more bonus abilities would be nice.

I wonder if anyone has done something like that before...something that is posted online somewhere?

Realms of Chaos
2011-04-05, 08:06 PM
Disregarding the post that I just spent 5 minutes writing and rewriting, upgraded feats sounds like an excellent idea.

Toughness
You are more resilient than others around you.
Benefit: You gain 3 hit points and the chance of stabilizing on your own while under 0 hit points increases by 5%. Lastly, you gain a +2 bonus to your AC against critical confirmation rolls.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times and its effects stack. Each time it is taken beyond the first, the number of hit points gained increase by 1.

Bodily Mastery
You are quite dexterous and strong when needed.
Benefit: Select two Strength-, Constitution-, and/or Dexterity-based skills. You gain a +2 bonus to skill checks made using those skills. Furthermore, you obtain a single manipulation or movement skill trick that you meet all prerequisites for. This skill trick does not count towards your limit.

Mental Mastery
Your mind is sharper than most would believe.
Benefit: Select two Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and/or Charisma-based skills. You gain a +2 bonus to skill checks made using those skills. Furthermore, you obtain a single interaction or mental skill trick that you meet all prerequisites for. This skill trick does not count towards your limit.