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Mark Hall
2011-04-05, 05:15 PM
You can have every skill by level 16 with careful planning.

I'm building a bard for the Iron Lich module. He's a rebuild of an old character, whose main purposes are

a) Have way too many powers
b) Make enemies wet themselves if someone uses an action point in his vicinity
c) Know a whole lot.

At level 16, he has not taken a feat which is NOT a multiclass feat. Most are warlord, to aid in part b.

KillianHawkeye
2011-04-05, 05:35 PM
Sounds interesting. I'd love to see the whole build.

mobdrazhar
2011-04-05, 05:46 PM
definately sounds like an interesting build. How does it actually work in practice though?

Lord Ascapelion
2011-04-05, 08:03 PM
I tried to do something like this earlier but got busy. A level-by-level breakdown would be nice. :)

Mark Hall
2011-04-06, 11:12 AM
I haven't seen him in actual play, yet; I just finished his gear last night, and the game isn't until Sunday. My DM (Hzurr) has already suggested I make up some cheat sheets for the other players, so they can know what happens when they spend an action point (rather than me have to explain it every time). I can't pull up the character creator on this computer (work machine, won't let me install Silverlight), but his purpose, aside from having every skill, is to make the enemy regret EVERY action point we spend. I know he has Multiclass feats for

Rogue (allowing him to sneak attack 1/encounter)
Barbarian (+2 damage for encounter 1/day)
Assassin (Step of Shadows power 1/encounter)
Runepriest (Rune of Mending)
Warlock (Eyebite power)
Warlord (Several).

However, I'll have to wait to post the whole build. One thing I did notice was how few Arcane multiclass feats worked with this build. Most of them specify Arcana skill training, making them useless to someone who already has that.

EDIT: Ok, I sat down and tweaked him a bit. First of all, he's a Human Bard. +2 to Charisma. Bonus Feat and Bonus Skill (those being the reason I am a Human, not a Half-elf or a Hobgoblin, whose +2 to Con would've served me well). He has the Virtue of Valor and the War Chanter Prestige Path. Stats (at 16th level) are

Str 14, Con 16, Dex 14, Int 15, Wis 13, Cha 20.

I cannot tell you, precisely, which skills I "learned" and which I got from feats; I wound up having to fiddle with things a little to get the effects I wanted. He did not grow organically, though if you want to assume a large number of retrained skills in the background, that works. Furthermore, the order is somewhat arbitrary... I rebuilt him to use a lot of Warlord MC feats, and so put those first in the CB, so I would know what skills were available. In doing so, I dropped Warlock (whose Eyebite power does not scale well, and was the only thing requiring me to keep a wand handy) and Ranger (whose Quarry power really sucks if its only 1 round).

Feats are:
Ritual Caster (Bard Bonus)
Student of Divine Runes (Runepriest MC)
Insightful Leader (Warlord MC... I'm C&Ping this into future entries)
Skirmishing Leader (Warlord MC... I'm C&Ping this into future entries)
Resourceful Leader (Warlord MC... I'm C&Ping this into future entries)
Student of Battle (Warlord MC... I'm C&Ping this into future entries)
Inspiring Leader (Warlord MC... I'm C&Ping this into future entries)
Acolyte of the Veil (Assassin MC)
Sneak of Shadows (Rogue MC)
Tactical Leader (Warlord MC... I'm C&Ping this into future entries)
Berserker's Fury (Barbarian MC)
Fervent Talent (Ardent MC)

I have multiclassed into the Divine, Martial, Shadow, Primal and Psionic power sources; I have powers for Arcane, Divine, Martial, Shadow and Psionic (Berserker's Fury does not provide a "power", though you could write up its ability as one; daily, free action, encounter-long +2 to damage). I possess every skill, am a ritual caster, and my worst stat bonus is a +1 (which I don't even need).

Hzurr
2011-04-06, 05:44 PM
Well done. You've succeeded in creating the single most complicated character ever. :smalltongue:

However, every skill trained? Dang.

Mark Hall
2011-04-06, 07:06 PM
Well done. You've succeeded in creating the single most complicated character ever. :smalltongue:

However, every skill trained? Dang.

I find anything is possible with dedication and enough disregard for your DM's sanity. ;-)

hoff
2011-04-06, 07:35 PM
You know if you hybrid rogue with bard you can start with one more class skill. If you go with a hand crossbow in one hand and a implement in the other it can be quite a good build. Take ranged weapon powers from the rogue side and implement powers from the bard side.

KingFlameHawk
2011-04-06, 07:56 PM
I noticed that you didn't take the Bravura Leader feat. Is there a reason for this? You said that you want the enemies to be scared when someone uses an action point and this one grants a large bonus to damage rolls. Do you think the risk is not worth it?

Mark Hall
2011-04-07, 10:59 AM
I noticed that you didn't take the Bravura Leader feat. Is there a reason for this? You said that you want the enemies to be scared when someone uses an action point and this one grants a large bonus to damage rolls. Do you think the risk is not worth it?

A couple reasons. First of all, I had all of the skills I could get from Warlord; I didn't need it, especially for the "I know everything" build.

Also, yeah, I hate the Bravura warlord. If it were a straight penalty to defenses, I might consider it, but considering how many things key off Combat Advantage, I don't consider it much of a gift.

Jokes
2011-04-09, 12:53 AM
What's the point of training all those skills? Acrobatics and Arcana are the only two that need training (For Detect Magic and Reduce Falling Damage), and you can get a +4 bonus to untrained skills with just Bard of all Trades and Skill Versatility.

I mean, yeah, getting all those other things from MC feats is nice, but trained skills aren't what bards need.

Lord Ascapelion
2011-04-09, 10:15 PM
What's the point of training all those skills? Acrobatics and Arcana are the only two that need training (For Detect Magic and Reduce Falling Damage), and you can get a +4 bonus to untrained skills with just Bard of all Trades and Skill Versatility.

I mean, yeah, getting all those other things from MC feats is nice, but trained skills aren't what bards need.

I don't think that's the point, lol. I'm pretty sure that the point is just to get trained in every skill.

hoff
2011-04-10, 02:54 PM
I found out a Paragon Path named Jack-of-all-trades. At level 16 you get training in 3 skills, at level 11 you get +2 to all skills. The requirements are being a Rogue. If you hybridize Bard and Rogue it can be a lot better.

It also have the Always Natural encounter power. You reroll any skill check!

This build would also be a lot more effective...

RTGoodman
2011-04-11, 12:14 PM
And all of those skills will come in handy when he dies horribly exploring the Iron Lich's crypt (or tomb or whatever it is). :smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

hoff
2011-04-11, 02:28 PM
With enough Dungeoneering skill you can predict the future in any dungeon...

Mark Hall
2011-04-11, 03:58 PM
What's the point of training all those skills? Acrobatics and Arcana are the only two that need training (For Detect Magic and Reduce Falling Damage), and you can get a +4 bonus to untrained skills with just Bard of all Trades and Skill Versatility.

I mean, yeah, getting all those other things from MC feats is nice, but trained skills aren't what bards need.

Ah, but they are what BJORN! needs (really, his name needs to be said with an exclamation point... he's sort of a randy Othar Tryggvason, Gentleman Adventurer (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031010) in that way.)

Bjorn got started as an interesting idea in a heroic game... A Bard who has a lot of different classes. In order to keep him largely effective, I made sure he didn't get in any blind corners with skills (thus, very few Arcane classes), meaning he was widely competent at a lot of things, AND had an array of powers that he could use. While somewhat of a Swiss Army Knife (never the best tool for a job, but an adequate one for any job), he was very much a Leader (and had comically bad luck with the power "Unluck").

Enter the rebuild. I wanted a character who was widely skilled, and perhaps comically so. I looked at the skill choices for multiclassing with the idea that this was someone whose primary function was a leader, thus chose a variety of feats that made him competent as one. Given an adequate party, I think he'd do quite well, filling in the gaps and making everyone (but, especially, people with good melee basic attacks) more effective.

MeeposFire
2011-04-11, 04:37 PM
I had a thief with jack of all trades/escaped slave theme/and one multiclass feat that had all but 4 skills trained and was really good at doing all the skills (even his untrained skills were about as good as your trained skills in bad ability scores since he has a +5 to all skill checks and auto double succeeds on a 20 in skill challenges). Only skills not trained were heal, nature, history, and religion. While I guess I could have added more skills via skill training that did not appeal to me. Kudos to you for having all the skills though that is very fun.

TheEmerged
2011-04-13, 01:20 PM
Bjorn got started as an interesting idea in a heroic game... A Bard who has a lot of different classes.

Ah, known as the SVK (http://www.goblinscomic.com/09022005/) build in some circles :smallbiggrin: I have a less serious one planned out if I ever get the chance to play a character (perpetual GM) :smallredface:

JysusCryst
2011-04-13, 03:52 PM
I'm interested in what powers you picked. I'm trying to rebuild him just so I can see what he looks like on a Character Sheet.

BobTheDog
2011-04-13, 11:04 PM
Nice concept, I bet this would really shine on skill challenges...

"Okay, let me see sneak into the duke's bedroom (*Thievery*) and see if he's hiding something (*Insight*), persuade him to tell me what it is (*Diplomacy*), help him figure out the clues (*Arcana, Religion and History*) and then I'll walk around and see if someone in town has something to say about it (*Streetwise*). I'll hide from the thugs that are in town (*Stealth*) or lie to them if they find me anyway (*Bluff*). If they don't believe I'm part of their gang, I'll tell them to bugger off (*Intimidate*) and then run like hell (*Athletics*), balancing on rooftops and parapets if needed (*Acrobatics*)."

Foeofthelance
2011-04-14, 10:12 PM
I'm working on something similar, where I plan on trying to max out his attack powers, skills, and feats, mostly by picking multiclass feats that turn at-will attack powers into encounter powers and taking the epic tier bard feats that add two multiclass feats each time you take it. Then go Thrallherd at paragon, and an as of yet unknown path for Epic. The trick, I've found, is the rebuilding feature at each level. It doesn't care where you got the skill from, just that whatever you train it into is something you have the option for. So each time Arcana or Religion comes up in your feat, first retrain it into something else from the bard list.

Mark Hall
2011-04-16, 11:09 AM
Ah, known as the SVK (http://www.goblinscomic.com/09022005/) build in some circles :smallbiggrin: I have a less serious one planned out if I ever get the chance to play a character (perpetual GM) :smallredface:

Poor Thunt... condemned himself to 30 days of Beiber...

MeeposFire
2011-04-16, 03:05 PM
I am half expecting his artwork to go more crazy as the month goes on.:smalleek:

Chambers
2011-04-27, 02:05 PM
I'm building a bard for the Iron Lich module.

Good luck. I've DM'd it and everyone died before they got to the Iron Lich. :smallsmile:

Crossfiyah
2011-04-27, 02:22 PM
I did one of these. By level 30 he multiclassed everything in the first two books, the artificer, the swordmage, the assassin, and a substantial part of the third one.

He had like 50 powers at level 30. It was stupid.

Hzurr
2011-04-27, 03:27 PM
Good luck. I've DM'd it and everyone died before they got to the Iron Lich. :smallsmile:

The group has run through it twice, both times resulting in a TPK (once from monsters, once from time). There are discussions of a 3rd attempt sometime soon.

Katana_Geldar
2011-04-27, 08:58 PM
What race is he? i hope he's a Half-Elf.

Mark Hall
2011-04-28, 11:07 AM
I am half expecting his artwork to go more crazy as the month goes on.:smalleek:

Actually.... consider what Dies and group have been dealing with this past month...


What race is he? i hope he's a Half-Elf.

Nope. He's a human. Extra feat + Extra skill.

MeeposFire
2011-04-28, 05:53 PM
Actually.... consider what Dies and group have been dealing with this past month...



Nope. He's a human. Extra feat + Extra skill.

SO true with that crazy monster. Perhaps we should look to see if it bears any resemblance to Beibar...