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Gunslinger
2006-08-07, 10:29 PM
The group I usually play with is not necessarily focused on making extremely powerful characters, so I am somewhat of a noob in terms of power gaming.

On these boards I have heard of the extreme power of CoDzilla (clerics or druids, If I'm correct) and Wizards (which I think I understand the power of).

I was wondering just why Clerics and Druids are so powerful. I think that I understand why (a friend of mine likes to make druids, with some obscene wildshape options), but I want you guys' take on it.

Thanks in advance.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-08-07, 10:32 PM
Here's why: clerics, through a number of spells (three primary ones, all core: Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Divine Favor) can become, essentially, as good fighters as fighters; druids are even better once they hit 5th level, as they can take on obscenely powerful forms (and buff themselves, too) that make their physical stats irrelevant, *plus* have animal companions for added melee presence.
This is despite the fact that they can (with Natural Spell, also core, for Druids) spellcast as the full spellcasters they are while doing so--and spellcasting is more powerful than melee, in D&D, after the first few levels.

Thray
2006-08-07, 10:33 PM
The druid is powerful because the animal companion is already a rather good melee combatant, and with wildshape and natural spell the druid can easily get substantially better at melee than a fighter is. Also, consider something like beads of karma, hierophant levels, and shapechange. That gets really nasty, really quick.

The cleric is powerful because they can be made as good at smashing things as a fighter with just one round of buffing at most levels; *and* they have full spellcasting. There's also a lot of individual cleric cheese, e.g. consumptive field + beads of karma + hierophant levels + divine spell power + (any of the word spells) allows you to kill someone not of your alignment with no save, provided they're only 3 or 4 hit dice higher than you.

Electric_Bard
2006-08-07, 10:35 PM
I know Clerics pretty well and they rock for multiple reasons. First off, you can almost literally be a tank. Encase yourself in Heavy Armor and a Sheild and you are almost untouchable. On top of that you get spells. GOOD SPELLS. The domains of a cleric (if played right) can get you some pretty powerful damage spells. Couple with that healing, as well as the option to boost you BAB up to that of a fighter, you've got great spells. And if you take the War domain you get free weapon focus, as well as the ability to use the weapon for free.

Plus, the party loves you 'cuz you heal.

Genome
2006-08-07, 10:52 PM
I was wondering just why Clerics and Druids are so powerful.
It's a myth. Clerics and Druids are the worst classes to play. You will always be behind your allies in progression. If you want powergaming, try Bard.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-08-07, 10:53 PM
Umm, Genome--we're talking about 3.5, not 2nd edition.

Thray
2006-08-07, 11:00 PM
Umm, Genome--we're talking about 3.5, not 2nd edition.

...meta-sarcasm hurts my head.

*Summons Yuki Akuma*

Gunslinger
2006-08-07, 11:04 PM
I know Clerics pretty well and they rock for multiple reasons. *First off, you can almost literally be a tank. *Encase yourself in Heavy Armor and a Sheild and you are almost untouchable. *On top of that you get spells. *GOOD SPELLS. *The domains of a cleric (if played right) can get you some pretty powerful damage spells. *Couple with that healing, as well as the option to boost you BAB up to that of a fighter, you've got great spells. *And if you take the War domain you get free weapon focus, as well as the ability to use the weapon for free.

Plus, the party loves you 'cuz you heal.

I actually want to play a cleric (especially with that explanation), that is once I have gotten through the other classes I want to play (Duskblade, Beguiler, Bard, and even my current Fighter/soon to be holy liberator).
Maybe a combat oriented cleric (the question is what deity?) with Smiting Spell from Complete Divine and Inflict spells to smite my enemies.

Thanks for the advice so far guys!

Keld Denar
2006-08-07, 11:06 PM
^^^ I think it was sarcasm...

Any level 13 cleric with standard wealth by level and a couple of feats from Complete Divine can pretty much 1 shot any number of creatures who's allighnments dosn't perfectly match that of the cleric. On top of that, they can extended mass buff the whole party into becoming almost 2x the ability they have, for pretty much the whole day. Pretty broken when played with the right combination of feats/gear.

PS, Genome, I love your Avatar!!!! SoM 4tw

Thray
2006-08-07, 11:06 PM
I actually want to play a cleric (especially with that explanation), that is once I have gotten through the other classes I want to play (Duskblade, Beguiler, Bard, and even my current Fighter/soon to be holy liberator).
Maybe a combat oriented cleric (the question is what deity?) with Smiting Spell from Complete Divine and Inflict spells to smite my enemies.

Thanks for the advice so far guys!


If you want to be a combat cleric, the best option is to be really cheesy and try to get a cause that allows the war domain (with the spiked chain as the chosen weapon) and the planning domain, take divine metamagic(persistent spell), and slap one a persistent divine power.

Otherwise, anything with the war and planning domains works.

Electric_Bard
2006-08-07, 11:34 PM
And a deity like that would be located in the Complete Warrior. Do you or your friends have a copy?

Kraaze
2006-08-07, 11:36 PM
Oh, hey, my favorite topic came around again!

CodZilla may well be real when all the splatbooks are dropped in the cauldron and the cheesiest combos are allowed to float to the top. I wouldn't know, I play in core-only games.

In terms of core-only, I've never seen any substantiation that the divine casters are in any way overpowered. They are certainly among the strongest characters since they tend to fight almost as well as the fighters plus add healing and some nice offensive spells into the mix.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-08-07, 11:40 PM
Fighting almost as well as fighters AND full spellcasting doesn't strike you as overpowered?

We've had this discussion repeatedly, but to the OP: Kraaze is in the minority--and the majority includes people on the Character Optimization boards, which know a hell of a lot about this sort of thing.

Core-only, the gap between CoDzilla and other classes (except wizards) is just as big as ever. A core-only fighter, for example, can't do effective battlefield control, only bashing things--which CoDzilla does better, and gets full spellcasting.

Gunslinger
2006-08-07, 11:41 PM
And a deity like that would be located in the Complete Warrior. *Do you or your friends have a copy?

No, we don't, but Complete Warrior is the next book I plan on getting (One of my friends is our library, but he is leaving collecting the Complete books to me.)

Who is this warrior deity of whom you speak? (If you know.)

Goumindong
2006-08-07, 11:44 PM
Oh, hey, my favorite topic came around again!

CodZilla may well be real when all the splatbooks are dropped in the cauldron and the cheesiest combos are allowed to float to the top. I wouldn't know, I play in core-only games.

In terms of core-only, I've never seen any substantiation that the divine casters are in any way overpowered. They are certainly among the strongest characters since they tend to fight almost as well as the fighters plus add healing and some nice offensive spells into the mix.





Obviously your clerics dont take quicken spell and your druids dont take natural spell.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-08-07, 11:45 PM
The Red Knight (Forgotten Realms) has War and Planning, being the goddess of tactics, but her favored weapon is the longsword. I believe Comp. Warrior grants it to Heironeous.

Wehrkind
2006-08-07, 11:47 PM
Just no. I can't have this fight again. Kraaze, we need to start seeing other people. We just don't understand each other. It's not you, it's the cleric and druid's ability to fill two archetypical roles simultaneously as well as those they replace. It is tearing us appart.

I made you this mix tape of songs that describe exactly how I feel. Included are such tracks as "OMG I'm a Full Caster and Tank (and You Aren't)", "People Who Aren't Like Me (Die In One Spell)" and "I'm a Giant Bear Who Casts Spells."

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-08-07, 11:48 PM
Just no. I can't have this fight again. Kraaze, we need to start seeing other people. We just don't understand each other. It's not you, it's the cleric and druid's ability to fill two archetypical roles simultaneously as well as those they replace. It is tearing us appart.

I made you this mix tape of songs that describe exactly how I feel. Included are such tracks as "OMG I'm a Full Caster and Tank (and You Aren't)", "People Who Aren't Like Me (Die In One Spell)" and "I'm a Giant Bear Who Casts Spells."


Bwaaaaaahahahahahahahahahaha. Bwahahaha. Haaaaaa.

Oh my god that was beautiful. Man. I... wow. This thread can be locked now, Wehrkind won it.

Wehrkind
2006-08-07, 11:59 PM
*Flex*

That is definitely going in my signature. I probably should also make a copy of my post, since I will probably never be that entertaining at midnight at work ever again.

Fizban
2006-08-08, 02:32 AM
I agree, you must copy/link to the post itself in the sig as well. Not that anyone needed me to say that. Anyway, I just wanted to comment on: wow, I just looked at the divine metamagic errata, and you can alter a spell to a higher level than you can cast, holy crap. The incantrix's instant metamagic can't even do that. As has been said before, wizards really needs to playtest with people who know how to cheese up.

Wehrkind
2006-08-08, 03:20 AM
Good idea. So good that I have very little clue on how to carry it out... I don't remember how to do that. Little help?

Wehrkind
2006-08-08, 03:55 AM
Further proof druids are over-powered: they can create their own girlfriends.

Druid in bear shape. Bear animal companion. Awaken bear. Get introduced to bear's parents. Have little were-bear cubs. Make your parents cry.

TheOOB
2006-08-08, 03:58 AM
Not even going to consider the mechanics of that...

Wehrkind
2006-08-08, 04:10 AM
Yea, that definitely raises some wierd possibilities. Even beyond the obvious "I wildshape into a sexual predator." jokes...

Now we know where furries come from.

Lidjis
2006-08-08, 12:22 PM
wehrkind you are now my hero

Azrael
2006-08-08, 12:32 PM
Twice in the same day. *Wow. *Check these out for your referencing pleasure.


This has been done SOOOO many times:



1 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1153079631 ) (The most content)
2 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1153361740 ) (Exact same subject matter as yours)
3 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1151717719 ) (More Cleric focused)
4 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1151168539 ) (No real content)
5 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1150871045 ) (Eh)
6 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1154412081 ;start=) (Double Eh)
7 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1154645471 ) (The most recent, specifically about Wild Shape)


And no (because someone was all snarky the last time I did this) I am not suggesting ressurrecting those threads. *But read them. *I can almost gaurantee that if you read #1, 2 & 7 that you'll be good to go.

Plus #8, the thread where that quote comes from. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1155048557 )

EDIT: *In all seriousness, read the first thread that was linked. *All 8 pages. *Now.

Yuki Akuma
2006-08-08, 12:37 PM
...meta-sarcasm hurts my head.

*Summons Yuki Akuma*

...;D

I laughed. ;D

martyboy74
2006-08-08, 12:43 PM
Twice in the same day. *Wow. *Check these out for your referencing pleasure.


I think you should add the fact that Pun-Pun started out as a druid.



































Ha! Godwin's D&D law has been fulfilled. This topic is now officially dead! Victory is mine! Mwahahahahahaha!

Azrael
2006-08-08, 12:45 PM
I hate you. >:(

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-08-08, 12:56 PM
Pun-pun doesn't kill threads. There are plenty of threads that lived long, happy lives after mentioning pun-pun. Especially if only in passing. ;)

Steward
2006-08-08, 12:58 PM
Who cares if this thread is dead? In eleven minutes, we'll have another one, rehashing the same old crap from every other CoDzilla discussion since the beginning of time.

martyboy74
2006-08-08, 01:10 PM
Pun-pun doesn't kill threads. *There are plenty of threads that lived long, happy lives after mentioning pun-pun. *Especially if only in passing. *;)
Actually, I was kinda referencing what Godwin's law actually is. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law) Aw crap, I think I'm falling into the category of the second paragraph. :P

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-08-08, 01:18 PM
But then you said, the topic is dead. Godwin's Law—not even the Pun-pun version—says nothing about killing a thread. It just says that the longer the thread, the more likely Pun-pun/Hitler will be mentioned.

The Topic lives! It's alive! It's alive! It's aliiiive!! Mwa-ha-ha-haaaa!!!

Thray
2006-08-08, 01:25 PM
Pun-pun doesn't kill threads. There are plenty of threads that lived long, happy lives after mentioning pun-pun. Especially if only in passing. ;)

Pun-Pun doesn't kill threads, wit kills threads!

Azrael
2006-08-08, 01:26 PM
/me flees

Telonius
2006-08-08, 01:28 PM
The original thread has obviously been killed, but reincarnted by a Druid into a Pun-Pun discussion. :o

Shhalahr Windrider
2006-08-08, 01:31 PM
The original thread has obviously been killed, but reincarnted by a Druid into a Pun-Pun discussion. :o
Ah, so you agree with me. It may be in a new form, but it does live.

martyboy74
2006-08-08, 01:32 PM
The original thread has obviously been killed, but reincarnted by a Druid into a Pun-Pun discussion. :o
Yes! Victory is still mine! I have won! (Even though it was accidental. Life.)




Ah, so you agree with me. *It may be in a new form, but it does live.
Ah, I give up. In the immortal words of cartman, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."

Kraaze
2006-08-08, 02:46 PM
Just no. I can't have this fight again. Kraaze, we need to start seeing other people. We just don't understand each other. It's not you, it's the cleric and druid's ability to fill two archetypical roles simultaneously as well as those they replace. It is tearing us appart.

I made you this mix tape of songs that describe exactly how I feel. Included are such tracks as "OMG I'm a Full Caster and Tank (and You Aren't)", "People Who Aren't Like Me (Die In One Spell)" and "I'm a Giant Bear Who Casts Spells."

LOL, that was a good one :)

And I do appreciate your point. This CoDZilla fallacy is too burned into people's mind for their to be an objective discussion of it, so I'll just let it go.

Yuki Akuma
2006-08-08, 02:48 PM
LOL, that was a good one :)

And I do appreciate your point. This CoDZilla fallacy is too burned into people's mind for their to be an objective discussion of it, so I'll just let it go.



I like how you just have to slip "fallacy" in there...

Yossarian
2006-08-08, 02:49 PM
And I do appreciate your point. *This CoDZilla fallacy is too burned into people's mind for their to be an objective discussion of it, so I'll just let it go.


You have a funny way of "letting it go".

Kraaze
2006-08-08, 02:51 PM
The "letting it go" was in the sense of "nobody wants to listen, so I won't waste my time" not in the sense of me actually believing the CoDzilla fallacy ;-)

Yossarian
2006-08-08, 02:54 PM
The "letting it go" was in the sense of "nobody wants to listen, so I won't waste my time" not in the sense of me actually believing the CoDzilla fallacy ;-)

I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.

"Letting it go" would be agreeing to disagree, not saying "I'm right and you're wrong so I'm not going to discuss it."

Azrael
2006-08-08, 02:55 PM
And I do appreciate your point. *This CoDZilla fallacy is too burned into people's mind for their to be an objective discussion of it, so I'll just let it go.

Passive-aggressive for the win... for the... for the sake of being passive-aggressive!

Kraaze
2006-08-08, 03:15 PM
I do not think that phrase means what you think it means.

"Letting it go" would be agreeing to disagree, not saying "I'm right and you're wrong so I'm not going to discuss it."

Thank you for the correction. Since my intent was neither of those things, I'll have to find a new phrase that means "I'd love to discuss it but the immediate backlash of ad-hominem means there's no point trying to debate the issue factually."

Let me know which phrase to use for that.

Yuki Akuma
2006-08-08, 03:22 PM
Thank you for the correction. Since my intent was neither of those things, I'll have to find a new phrase that means "I'd love to discuss it but the immediate backlash of ad-hominem means there's no point trying to debate the issue factually."

Let me know which phrase to use for that.





Wow, aren't you passive-agressive...

Next you're gonna start being sarcastic, too! :( Stop stealing my thing!

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-08-08, 03:39 PM
LOL, that was a good one :)

And I do appreciate your point. This CoDZilla fallacy is too burned into people's mind for their to be an objective discussion of it, so I'll just let it go.

So, um, what makes you right and everyone else wrong, again? If everyone else says that clerics and druids are overpowered and you say they're not, maybe the way you play with your group is different from the way everyone else plays.

You yourself said "they tend to fight almost as well as the fighters plus add healing and some nice offensive spells into the mix." Even if it's "almost" as well as fighters--they don't just have some nice offensive spells, they're full spellcasters. I hope you won't argue that Spellcasting Wins D&D. So these guys are full spellcasters, *and* fight at least almost as well as Fighters (and, in everyone else's opinion, better--maybe you're just playing them wrong?), *and* the cleric has Turn Undead for Divine feats while the Druid has an animal companion that's a significant melee presence on its own.

Seriously, saying "I'm right because no one else but me is objective" is unutterably arrogant. What the heck makes you think you're any more objective than--say--me? I don't really *care* whether or not clerics and druids are overpowered. It's D&D, it's unbalanced. I just tell it the way it is.
You've said in the past that you do things like seriously restrict what druids can turn into. Maybe the fact that you nerf CoDzilla is what stops it from being overpowered in your games? Just maybe? Hmm? Anything becomes less powerful when nerfed.

Genome
2006-08-08, 03:46 PM
I feel ashamed to have posted in this thread.

martyboy74
2006-08-08, 03:47 PM
And that's the Logic Ninja all love. Or hate. :-/

Azrael
2006-08-08, 04:00 PM
I blame the current socio-political climate. *Legitimate, widespread evidence is routinely ignored and then drowned out by those who prefer to loudly state their own narrow-focus beliefs without any counter-evidence of their own beyond their personal experience.

Right or wrong becomes a fight over who can say the same thing the loudest for the longest.

martyboy74
2006-08-08, 04:13 PM
I blame the current socio-political climate. *Legitimate, widespread evidence is routinely ignored and then drowned out by those who prefer to loudly state their own narrow-focus beliefs without any counter-evidence of their own beyond their personal experience.

Right or wrong becomes a fight over who can say the same thing the loudest for the longest.
Just asking, but is that really a "current" thing? I thought that was just sorta how the world worked....


By the way, if I'm confirming your thoery, whoops.

Goumindong
2006-08-08, 05:50 PM
Clerics and Druids, especialy Druids need to be semi-casters similar to Bards.

What is sad, is that even if Clerics and Druids were semi-casters like bards, they would probably still be better.

Yossarian
2006-08-08, 08:48 PM
Thank you for the correction. *Since my intent was neither of those things, I'll have to find a new phrase that means "I'd love to discuss it but the immediate backlash of ad-hominem means there's no point trying to debate the issue factually."

If that's a problem, you could, y'know, stop using ad hominem attacks and then we wouldn't have an issue anymore.

Wehrkind
2006-08-08, 10:08 PM
Yea, I don't think ad hominim is what you are going for. I didn't call you an idiot, or say you were a goat lover and thus unable to produce a good argument. I am just saying you have yet to produce a good example of how being able to fill two roles in a party with no exceptional effort and no particular weakness is not more powerful than the alternative.

Saddly, the methods of human understanding are often flawed, though it is more common now. No one wants to have what they think shown to be wrong, because they feel baddly then. People thus are happier to be "right" in an argument, rather than be correct in fact. Argue with someone about whether or not they should be using drugs, and you will see that mindset. Actual conversation:
"Seriously honey, drugs are bad."
"They make me happy."
"Yes, but they are going to destroy your career and your future. There is not a "long run" for them. That will make you unhappy."
"No, I will be ok. It is my decision."
"It is your decision, but it is a bad one if you want this career you are working so hard for."
"You can't tell me my decision is wrong, it is my decision!"

Remember kids, it is a sign you are all grown up to be able to admit you were mistaken when you can not demonstrate otherwise in the face of evidence. At least saying "I don't have a good argument, but I am pretty certain you are incorrect. I will try to figure out why and get back to you" is better than "You are wrong, and I don't have to tell you why because it is me and I am special."

Zangor
2006-08-08, 11:58 PM
Yea, I don't think ad hominim is what you are going for. I didn't call you an idiot, or say you were a goat lover and thus unable to produce a good argument. I am just saying you have yet to produce a good example of how being able to fill two roles in a party with no exceptional effort and no particular weakness is not more powerful than the alternative.

Saddly, the methods of human understanding are often flawed, though it is more common now. No one wants to have what they think shown to be wrong, because they feel baddly then. People thus are happier to be "right" in an argument, rather than be correct in fact. Argue with someone about whether or not they should be using drugs, and you will see that mindset. Actual conversation:
"Seriously honey, drugs are bad."
"They make me happy."
"Yes, but they are going to destroy your career and your future. There is not a "long run" for them. That will make you unhappy."
"No, I will be ok. It is my decision."
"It is your decision, but it is a bad one if you want this career you are working so hard for."
"You can't tell me my decision is wrong, it is my decision!"

Remember kids, it is a sign you are all grown up to be able to admit you were mistaken when you can not demonstrate otherwise in the face of evidence. At least saying "I don't have a good argument, but I am pretty certain you are incorrect. I will try to figure out why and get back to you" is better than "You are wrong, and I don't have to tell you why because it is me and I am special."
I disagree. Facts are irrelevant. I don't have to tell you why because it is me and I am special.

Now that I got the obvious (and not-so-good)joke out of the way, this thread may continue as scheduled.

Wolf53226
2006-08-09, 12:14 AM
I am special.

Yes....you are!!!!


Since you were telling bad jokes at the expense of the thread, I figured I could to. ;D

Back On Topic:
Clerics and Druids are powerful, the arguement that they aren't because you don't play one to be overpowering is a flawed arguement. If I made a campaign and only allowed Clerics and Druids, would that work? Yes. Why? Because with a few Clerics and a Druid, I can fill EVERY major role in the party, without a problem. Heck, I can do it with just Clerics, and just three of them.

Rogue: Cleric with Trickery Domain, no sneak attack bonus, but don't really need it.
Arcane Caster: Cleric with Magic Domain, not really a great arcane caster, but since they are full divine casters, that is so minimal a problem that this will work.
Fighter: Cleric with war and strength...or war and a couple others.
Healer/Divine....well duh, they're all clerics.

So at first level, this party may have some issues, but come fifth, what can stop them? And I have a couple more domains to pick. What other class, besides Druid(maybe?) could do that? Sure a wizard will get powerful enough to out do this, but everyone knows wizards and arcane casters pretty much rock at the higher levels.

Mike_G
2006-08-09, 12:22 AM
Back On Topic:
Clerics and Druids are powerful, the arguement that they aren't because you don't play one to be overpowering is a flawed arguement. If I made a campaign and only allowed Clerics and Druids, would that work? Yes. Why? Because with a few Clerics and a Druid, I can fill EVERY major role in the party, without a problem. Heck, I can do it with just Clerics, and just three of them.

Rogue: Cleric with Trickery Domain, no sneak attack bonus, but don't really need it.
Arcane Caster: Cleric with Magic Domain, not really a great arcane caster, but since they are full divine casters, that is so minimal a problem that this will work.
Fighter: Cleric with war and strength...or war and a couple others.
Healer/Divine....well duh, they're all clerics.



I hope you don't need to find and disarm many traps with those two whopping skill points per level.

The Cleric is overpowered, yes. They can replace a fighter, except for the bonus feats, which their buffs can mostly more than make up for. I'm not arguing that. They can fill quite a bit of the arcane caster's role, in that, while they don't get the same spells, they get spells that can fill similar niches, damage, defenses, buffs, etc, plus they don't have the weaknesses in melee that arcane casters do.

But they simply cannot replace a rogue. Unless they feel like just buffing up, walking through all the traps and then healing/restoring afterwards.

Wehrkind
2006-08-09, 01:11 AM
Isn't Find Traps a fairly low level spell? Not quite as good as a rogue, but it might do.

Honestly though, even if a cleric needs a rogue, which is arguable but likely the case, a cleric can still fill the slot of 2-3 archetypes (I am on the fence about the mage aspect.)

Mike_G
2006-08-09, 02:58 AM
Finding isn't disabling.

A Cleric can't mimic all the skills with spells, unless he wants to devote a lot of slots, and he gets two whole points per level, even if the Trickery domain give him some class skills.

The class that Clerics can most easily render obsolete is the Fighter. They're already the Healer. They can be a decent caster, different than a Wizard, but with enough overlap to make the argument.

They are in no way a skill monkey.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-08-09, 03:01 AM
Cloistered Cleric variant, with the Kobold domain for Trapfinding. Voila! :P

Wehrkind
2006-08-09, 03:01 AM
See previous post about how only covering 2-3 slots in one character is still 1-2 slots better than ANY other class.

Psiwave
2006-08-09, 04:50 AM
Finding isn't disabling.


true, but then the clerics only need to buy some cheap livestock and a 10' pole to bypass most of them safely. plus even if they do get caught out there are four divine casters to patch those Boo-Boos.

Personally I have trouble seeing the reasoning behind clerics wearing full-plate, man of the cloth? lol.

Starbuck_II
2006-08-09, 11:23 AM
Finding can be disabling. Dispel Magic/sunder solves most traps. The DMG suggest this under traps.

Devils_Advocate
2006-08-10, 08:54 PM
Saddly, the methods of human understanding are often flawed, though it is more common now. No one wants to have what they think shown to be wrong, because they feel baddly then. People thus are happier to be "right" in an argument, rather than be correct in fact.
"No one"? I'm pretty sure that that's like the *opposite* of how I work. I'd prefer to learn the truth about something I'm wrong about than to just learn something entirely new. In the former case, I've eliminated inaccurate knowledge *and* gained accurate knowledge. That's pretty much strictly better than the latter case, in which I just gain accurate knowledge.

I would far sooner believe nothing than have an incorrect explanation for everything.

Maybe most people find it unsettling to have their beliefs discredited because they feel very certain about them? I kind of take it for granted that a high degree of certainty in one's beliefs is usually foolish.


Argue with someone about whether or not they should be using drugs, and you will see that mindset. Actual conversation:
"Seriously honey, drugs are bad."
"They make me happy."
"Yes, but they are going to destroy your career and your future. There is not a "long run" for them. That will make you unhappy."
"No, I will be ok. It is my decision."
"It is your decision, but it is a bad one if you want this career you are working so hard for."
"You can't tell me my decision is wrong, it is my decision!"
Well, in that case, each side is arguing poorly since they're both just making unsupported assertions. Was that your point? I'd hardly call it an "argument" at all, really.

"Look, an argument is more than just a contradiction."
"No, it isn't!"
"Yes, it is!"
"Well, it CAN be."

After all, if you change your mind to accept a proposition which is based on no evidence just because you have no evidence of its contradiction, then you're still making the same error, just in the opposite direction!

MrNexx
2006-08-11, 01:08 PM
Finding isn't disabling.

Summon Monster is.

unlit.candle
2006-08-11, 05:25 PM
Even though they are both very powerful classes, they both have great RP value to them. Just don't get stuck being the resident healer - that sucks.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-08-11, 05:33 PM
Even though they are both very powerful classes, they both have great RP value to them. Just don't get stuck being the resident healer - that sucks.

Please explain how clerics and druids have more RP value than any other class.

If your character's RP value comes from his class... you're doin' somethin' wrong.

TheThan
2006-08-11, 05:48 PM
Please explain how clerics and druids have more RP value than any other class.

If your character's RP value comes from his class... you're doin' somethin' wrong.

True, but it certainly helps define your character as a whole. And lets keep this from turning into that fighter vs samurai debate that ended with a locked thread.

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-08-11, 05:50 PM
No, it... really doesn't any more than any other class.

DM_Raven
2006-08-11, 06:16 PM
Being religious towards a cause tends to generate more oppertunity for good role-play. Often, characters need to embrace ideals or choices that they, themselves, would not normally embrace.

I suppose any class can be religious or devoted to an ideal or goal. But when that ideal or goal is giving you divine power...you better be pretty damn devoted to it's teachings...

The_Logic_Ninja
2006-08-11, 06:19 PM
Being religious towards a cause tends to generate more oppertunity for good role-play.

Not any more than any other strong personality trait. You can have some very bland, "yes, I worship Kossuth and he grants me power, it's a pretty sweet deal" clerics.

Me, I want to play a, like, sixteen-year-old cleric of Lliira (goddess of joy) someday. Ridiculously cheerful, very much a morning person, eternal optimist. His favorite sayings will be "but look on the bright side..." and "goooood morning!"
And because he'll be the party healer, THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. ;D

Thray
2006-08-11, 06:26 PM
Never underestimate the party's willingness to murder a cleric. I've had a party get a cleric baleful polymorph'd into a mole so that they could take their time torturing it to death.

Fhaolan
2006-08-11, 06:29 PM
Me, I want to play a, like, sixteen-year-old cleric of Lliira (goddess of joy) someday. Ridiculously cheerful, very much a morning person, eternal optimist. His favorite sayings will be "but look on the bright side..." and "goooood morning!"
And because he'll be the party healer, THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. ;D

You sir, are mean. Downright mean. :)

Of course, who am I to judge? In the game I'm running right now, one NPC that is following the party around is a paladin of the Crying God (god of healing (and suffering)) who's a full-on goth. "Woe is the world, for all is darkness... Let me read you some poetry...."

;D

MrNexx
2006-08-11, 06:59 PM
True, but it certainly helps define your character as a whole. And lets keep this from turning into that fighter vs samurai debate that ended with a locked thread.

Is Durkon a better character than Roy because he is a cleric?

Is Elan better at role-playing than V because he is bard?

Starbuck_II
2006-08-11, 10:09 PM
Is Elan better at role-playing than V because he is bard?

Maybe, I do like Elan better.

Thray
2006-08-11, 10:11 PM
You sir, are mean. Downright mean. :)

Of course, who am I to judge? In the game I'm running right now, one NPC that is following the party around is a paladin of the Crying God (god of healing (and suffering)) who's a full-on goth. "Woe is the world, for all is darkness... Let me read you some poetry...."

;D

And here I thought only Blackguards got to be emo!

Stephen_E
2006-08-12, 01:46 AM
If your character's RP value comes from his class... you're doin' somethin' wrong.

To be honest, when I design a character I workout what mechanics/classes/skills I want to use. I then workout my RP around the classes, mechanics and skills. I then go back and rework the classes, skills and mechanics based on my RP view.

It's a somewhat "snake eat tail" process, but technically you can say I base my RP on my class to a degree. Oh well, if it's wrong I don't care so long as I'm enjoying myself.

Stephen

Jack Mann
2006-08-12, 01:55 AM
A good player can get just as much roleplay out of a fighter or a wizard as out of a bard or a cleric.

A cleric or a bard is not intrinsically more interesting or three dimensional purely as a function of his or her class. A bard can be just as flat and boring as any other class if you're not attempting to put any life into it. That is Logic's point.

Basing the character's personality and backstory on the class abilities they have and vice versa? Not a bad thing, and I'm sure Logic would agree that it's a good idea. However, some people seem to think that class can stand in for personality and backstory, which just ain't so.

Thanatos
2007-02-16, 01:46 PM
They are more powerful mechanically, but in the case of the cleric especially, their power is dependent upon service to what is essentially an NPC, which is of course controlled by the DM.

Party dependence on healing is also one of the strongest peer pressure influences towards pidgeonholing your role, as well.

Josh Inno
2007-02-16, 02:48 PM
Just no. I can't have this fight again. Kraaze, we need to start seeing other people. We just don't understand each other. It's not you, it's the cleric and druid's ability to fill two archetypical roles simultaneously as well as those they replace. It is tearing us appart.

I made you this mix tape of songs that describe exactly how I feel. Included are such tracks as "OMG I'm a Full Caster and Tank (and You Aren't)", "People Who Aren't Like Me (Die In One Spell)" and "I'm a Giant Bear Who Casts Spells."

This. post. rocks.

Jothki
2007-02-16, 03:09 PM
Never underestimate the party's willingness to murder a cleric. I've had a party get a cleric baleful polymorph'd into a mole so that they could take their time torturing it to death.

Sounds like someone has a case of the Mondays.

Gorbash Kazdar
2007-02-16, 04:02 PM
Comrade Gorby: Dawn of the dead moment here. I am locking this thread as it had died down more than 6 months ago before being resurrected.

Please keep in mind our rule on Thread Necromancy:

Thread Necromancy
Bringing a thread back from “the dead.” If a thread has fallen to page three and hasn’t been posted in for a month and a half, don’t post in it. Start a new topic if you want to discuss the subject.