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View Full Version : fiend-binding incantations (feedback needed)



big teej
2011-04-20, 06:20 PM
greetings playgrounders,

Having recently acquired Unearthed Arcana, an idea I had long ago has been given new life.

to bind a fiend, forcefully, to a weapon, armor, shield, or item, for the benfits as per the BOVD "item possession" rules.

I am curious.

would setting the DC by the HD of the fiend to be bound (demons for chaotic evil people using this incantation, devils for lawful, and yugoloths for neutral) be an appropriate check.

looking at the encantation rules I've come up with teh folllowing (this is merely an off the cuff rough draft, but humor me.)

1. determine the school
transmutation or conjuration
base DC 32 or 30

2. modify the DC
skill checks - what skill to use? Knowledge (the planes) knowledge (religion) etc?
lets assume we use these 2
both are on the wizard spell list.
so - 1 for multiple skills.

lets assume its a 6 hour ritual
so thats 3 checks each.
so - 3 for an hour between checks x 3

range
extremely close, the ritual can take place in as small as a 10 foot diamater summonin circle (fiends with higher HD require larger circles)
so that gives us either + or - 2 (I can't tell)

target
single target - +4

duration
permanent - + 10

focus and material components
expensive material components - 500 gp - 1
expensive focus (?) - 5000 gp - 1

xp component
100 xp per HD of fiend (1,000 max) - 1

extra casters
none? so -0

backlash
exhausted - 2
4 d6 points of damage - 2
effects secondary casters - 1

for a grand total of....

22????

that doesn't sound right, but oh well, that's why I'm here.

step 3.
set level
I don't have a freaking clue and am open to suggestions.



so, what do you think? is this workable? what needs to be changed to make it fit?

for those of you wondering what I'm after... instead of paying 'some wizard' an aribitrary amount of GP to enchant my weapons and armor with special abilities and plusses... I want to forcibly bind a daemon into the item, making them grant abiliities as per the rules in BOVD.

also, perhaps a 2nd ritual in which it's a bargain with the fiend as opposed to forcing them too.

big teej
2011-04-20, 08:13 PM
nobody has any ideas at all?
no comments to make?

should I try again in the 3.5 forum?

Sydonai
2011-04-20, 09:35 PM
I'm very bad at mechanics so I can't help, but I like the idea.

I just got the image of someone mass-producing Lemure-bound swords for their army.
Cheap magic weapons that release devils( and become mundane swords) when their weilder dies, sounds like something the Zhentarim or Lords of Dust would do.

big teej
2011-04-21, 08:35 AM
well, support for the idea is better than nothing. :smalltongue:

Airanath
2011-04-21, 08:45 AM
I'm very bad at mechanics so I can't help, but I like the idea.

I just got the image of someone mass-producing Lemure-bound swords for their army.
Cheap magic weapons that release devils( and become mundane swords) when their weilder dies, sounds like something the Zhentarim or Lords of Dust would do.

Nah, they certainly wouldn't do that.
They would sell said swords to enemie armies, for profit, and them use a disjunction from afar to have said armies swarmed by demons thought. *evilgrim*

big teej
2011-04-21, 10:00 AM
actually this whole ritual simply revolves around fulling out my very first character concept. XD

so I dug through some more of my books to help condense the ritual down a bit and make it more precise (hopefully drawing more people who can comment on the idea and its execution)

merely an off the cuff rough draft, but humor me.)

1. determine the school
summoninng spells are from the conjuration school. so
conjuration - DC 30

2. modify the DC
skills: Knowledge (The Planes) and Knowledge (Religion)
- 1 for multiple skills.

the ritual last six hours.
so 2 checks per hour.
for a total of - 3

range
I'm still not sure how this part works, so this part is still +/- 2
extremely close, the ritual can take place in as small as a 10 foot diamater summonin circle (fiends with higher HD require larger circles)
so that gives us either + or - 2 (I can't tell)

target - a single fiend of at least 2 HD
single target - +4

duration
permanent - + 10

focus and material components
expensive material components - 500 gp - 1
- material compoenents currently unspecified.

xp component
100 xp per HD of fiend (1,000 max) - 1

extra casters - none

backlash
exhausted - 2
4 d6 points of damage - 2
effects secondary casters - 1

for a grand total of....
now, given this condensed version.
the DC for the incantation to bind a fiend into a weapon or armor is....
31 or 35 depending on how that range thing works.


thoughts on this revised version?

elpollo
2011-04-21, 04:22 PM
From what I understand of the incantation rules (which could be very little):


1. determine the school
summoninng spells are from the conjuration school. so
conjuration - DC 30

That seems fair enough for the summoning, but for the binding I'd guess you'd need abjuration or something as well. I also think the binding is the key bit, so we'll use abjuration as the main school, bringing the base DC up to 42.



2. modify the DC
skills: Knowledge (The Planes) and Knowledge (Religion)
- 1 for multiple skills.

This is fine. DC 41.



the ritual last six hours.
so 2 checks per hour.
for a total of - 3

I'm a bit confused here. Having one hour between checks instead of 10 minutes means a -1 to the DC. I'm not sure where you got 2 checks per hour or -3 from. This would take the DC to 40.



range
I'm still not sure how this part works, so this part is still +/- 2
extremely close, the ritual can take place in as small as a 10 foot diamater summonin circle (fiends with higher HD require larger circles)
so that gives us either + or - 2 (I can't tell)

For abjuration spells the range starts at close. I guess you only really need touch, as you're binding the demon into the weapon, which would be -2 (as it was range: close and is now range: touch), for DC 38.



target - a single fiend of at least 2 HD
single target - +4

You can limit it to outsiders and get a -3 on the check, and it's really only a single target so you don't need the +4. This takes it to DC 35.


duration
permanent - + 10

We're now going minutes to hours, hours to days, days to permanent, so that's a total of +20. DC 55.


focus and material components
expensive material components - 500 gp - 1
- material compoenents currently unspecified.

We'll probably need more to offset the high DC, so a 5,000gp focus and material component, for DC 52.


xp component
100 xp per HD of fiend (1,000 max) - 1

This is going to result in an odd case where the stronger fiends are easier to summon. I'd just say 1k experience for -10 (DC 42).


extra casters - none

backlash
exhausted - 2
4 d6 points of damage - 2
effects secondary casters - 1

There are no secondary casters, so this takes it to DC 38.

So, this summons the demon to the weapon. I'm guessing the Planar Binding spells would be the best to base this off of, so we're talking level 6 if we limit the HD to around 12 a la Planar Binding (and questionably receiving another -3 to the DC), or 8 if we limit the HD to around 18 a la Greater Planar Binding (and I'd argue no -3 to the DC despite there technically being a limit). I guess we could also say 9 if we don't want a limit, but that's opening up all sorts of abuse. The demon would receive a Will Save to resist with a DC 16 or 18 + the caster's charisma modifier, depending on the level of the incantation, and if it passes then it's not bound (possibly not summoned, but you've passed the skill checks and there are more fun possibilities if you have an unbound and angry demon in your sword).


So we end up with something like this:

Bind a smallish demon into a weapon
Abjuration (Possibly with the descriptor opposite to the alignment of the creature being bound, as magic circle)
Effective Level: 6th
Skill Check: Knowledge (arcana) DC 35, 3 successes; Knowledge (religion) DC 35, 3 successes
Failure: The creature being summoned is alerted of the caster's location and intentions, and can choose to be summoned to the caster and attack.
Components: V, S, M, FC, XP
Casting Time: 6 hours
Range: Touch
Target or Targets: One weapon
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) (DC 16 + casterís Cha modifier)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You can bind a fiend of 4-10HD to a weapon you touch. The weapon counts as having the fiend possessing it as an enhancer (appropriate bonuses decided by the DM). The outsider being bound gets a will save to resist, and if it passes it may either refuse the calling or be summoned but not bound into the weapon (purely possess it). If being cast upon a magic item the item also gets a save, which, if passed, means that the fiend can't possess the item.

Material Component: 5,000gp of something.
Focus: 5,000gp of something.
Backlash Component: 4d6 damage.
XP Component: 1,000 experience.


Bind a big demon into a weapon
Abjuration (Possibly with the descriptor opposite to the alignment of the creature being bound, as magic circle)
Effective Level: 8th
Skill Check: Knowledge (arcana) DC 38, 4 successes; Knowledge (religion) DC 38, 4 successes
Failure: The creature being summoned is alerted of the caster's location and intentions, and can choose to be summoned to the caster and attack.
Components: V, S, M, FC, XP
Casting Time: 8 hours
Range: Touch
Target or Targets: One weapon
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) (DC 18 + casterís Cha modifier)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You can bind an outsider of 4-20HD to a weapon you touch. The weapon counts as having the fiend possessing it as an enhancer (appropriate bonuses decided by the DM). The outsider being bound gets a will save to resist, and if it passes it may either refuse the calling or be summoned but not bound into the weapon (purely possess it). If being cast upon a magic item the item also gets a save, which, if passed, means that the fiend can't possess the item.

Material Component: 5,000gp of something.
Focus: 5,000gp of something.
Backlash Component: 4d6 damage.
XP Component: 1,000 experience.

There are probably a whole heck of potential issues and clarifications that need to be made, but I'd use that as a starting point.


edit - thinking about it the pay-off isn't great at the higher end. Sure, you CAN bind a 20HD Balor into your sword, but all you've got to show for it is 40,000gp worth of enhancements for it, and that's not even +5 worth of enhancements. Is that really worth an angry Balor (especially considering the investment and odds of success). I'd probably increase the gold worth of higher hit dice creatures - 4,000gp would allow a +6 weapon for the Balor, which is certainly closer to being worthwhile. I'd have to think about it/see what other people think.

edit 2 - perhaps if the weapon doesn't have an enhancement bonus it gains an enhancement bonus equal to what you could buy with 2,000 x HD gold (so a 9HD devil would give you a +3 enhancement bonus if the weapon didn't already have better) and an appropriate ability depending on the creature bound? Maybe it could grant more abilities based off of the creature's HD. Maybe an SLA of the demon or two? I'm really not sure.

edit 3 - ok, something like 200*(HD^2)gp worth of enhancements, maybe? The 2,000*HD thing starts off pretty high for little demons and quickly becomes irrelevant for large ones. I think some form of exponent is needed for the gold limit.

Sydonai
2011-04-22, 10:01 AM
I think you need to stick to mindless and willing outsiders for this. So; have a Devil stick one of it's underlings into your sword, in exchange you perform a service-to-be-decided-on-at-some-time-in-the-future. Seems like a normal enough devil-deal.

If you want to mass-produce these things you need to be a Disciple of an Archfiend or Thrall of a Prince. Otherwise its just not cost-effective.





P.S. You might want to look at Infernum, a D20 setting by Mongoose.

big teej
2011-04-22, 12:23 PM
I think you need to stick to mindless and willing outsiders for this. So; have a Devil stick one of it's underlings into your sword, in exchange you perform a service-to-be-decided-on-at-some-time-in-the-future. Seems like a normal enough devil-deal.

If you want to mass-produce these things you need to be a Disciple of an Archfiend or Thrall of a Prince. Otherwise its just not cost-effective.





P.S. You might want to look at Infernum, a D20 setting by Mongoose.

I'm not the one looking to mass produce, that was suggsted by another playgrounder.


and the "item possession rules" as layed out by the BOVD require an intelligent fiend.

Arbitrarious
2011-04-23, 07:51 AM
I actually had a character who did this. My DM and I made a method that used a variation of an existing spell to do what we wanted.

Place item to be enhanced in prepared magic circle. Various runes, incense, reagents, etc are used on the item to direct the nature of the imbued magics. Planar bind your outsider/elemental of choice. Completely reasonable and infact encouraged but not strictly need is to make certain creatures required for certain abilities (fiends for unholy, celestials for holy, elemental subtype for elemental damage). Then either force it to comply or strike an agreement under planar binding. Cast a variation on Haunt Shift (Libris Mortis?) to make a target outsider a possessing force vs making an undead a haunting presence and bind it to the item. We ruled that with the use of the appropriate reagents (ie gold cost) the default duration is a year and a day, otherwise use planar bindings duration. At higher levels you could Trap the Soul after binding to make it permanent. The item acted as an intelligent item with the mental scores of the outsider/elemental. A helpful creature wasn't an issue and may offer use of it's abilities and knowledge as it saw fit. An unwilling creature would attempt to resist via Ego checks with a DC of 1/2 HD + Cha mod.

I'll see if I can find the GP=HD table we used.

EDIT: NM.... I see you wanted to use the UA anyone can do this rules for ritual magic in that case I'll find that table, but otherwise looks good. Sorry about the brain fart.

big teej
2011-04-23, 09:50 AM
yea, the character in question is a Barbarian of Khorne. so it needs to be something non-casters can do.

Arbitrarious
2011-04-23, 11:37 AM
I see.

The formula we used for HD to GP was 1/2HD^2 x 2000gp.

It gives a nice progression of a magic weapon value equal to what a creature of that HD would have. 16 HD gives a +9 weapon and 20 HD is +10. You can alter the 2000gp up or down 500 or so if you want to increase or decrease the scaling.