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Ping Pong Along
2011-04-20, 07:02 PM
Hi everyone. There's something that had been bugging me about D&D's language system. You go directly from not knowing a language to knowing. Sure, it is implied that you learn between levels, but it seems too easy. I'd like a system where there is a progression in language learning. I'd also like for there to be certain benefits toward knowing a specific language, beyond simply communication. The choice of languages were changed to better reflect my world.

Here is what I've been working on with some of my players. I would love to hear opinions on what you like, what you don't like, if something seems off balance, etc. Thanks for your help.


Languages in Kinland

1. Level 1 characters start off with 4 Language Points plus additional Language Points based on one half their Intelligence modifier. For instance, a level one character with an intelligence of 14 would get 5 Language Points total because of the 4 regular points and then 1 for having a +1 modifier in Intelligence.

2. It takes 4 Language Points put into a language to master it. One language point means you can pick out words or phrases and write simple words. Two language points means you are able to form some rough sentences and understand a bit of native speaker’s words. Three language points means you can basically understand most things and can communicate with people in this language without difficulty. Four language points shows mastery. Additional language points can be put in to be able to understand different dialects (NOTE: I'm still working on the role of dialects.)

3. To start off with, characters can only know the most basic languages (Elven, Dwarven, Goblin, Aquan, Cyclopian, Gnomish, and Tauren). As the character progresses through the world and encounters characters that speak other languages, they can learn various other languages (Draconic, Ignan, Halfling, Deltan, Gnoll, etc.).

4. Every level beyond the first, a character gets language points equal to one plus on half their Intelligence modifier.

5. Druids get four additional Language Points upon their first level of druid that has to go into Druidic.

6. If a character has a positive Wisdom modifier, they get four additional language points. This doesn't apply if the positive modifier is only achieved from a spell, such as Owl's Wisdom.

7. Unlike standard D&D, nobody starts off with an automatic language. This is why characters start off with 4 language points, so they can customize their language(s) to fit their back story. For instance, I've had quite a few elf PC's that didn't grow up among elves. They shouldn't have Elven as an automatic language.

Languages

[ ] = Aquan
[ ] = Cyclopian
[ ] = Deltan*
[ ] = Draconic*
[ ] = Druidic**
[ ] = Dwarven
[ ] = Elven
[ ] =Gargoyle*
[ ] = Gnoll*
[ ] = Gnomish
[ ] = Goblin
[ ] = Halfling*
[ ] = Ignan*
[ ] = Tauren
[ ] = _____________
[ ] =_____________
[ ] = _____________
[ ] = _____________
[ ] = _____________
* Must be taught. It takes a week of study with a tutor before a Language Point can be put into this language.
** Can only be taught to a druid.

Language Specifics
The main languages are very commonly heard throughout the world. Only the most isolated people have never come across or heard these languages, even if they do not know how to read, speak, or comprehend them.

Aquan is the language of the Merfolk. This language is nearly impossible to speak or understand above water. Masters of this language find that they can communicate very well underwater, even able to discuss complex issues before coming up for air. This language is also very useful for hearing rumors, for the voice of a Merfolk can travel downstream.

Cyclopian is the language of the Cyclops. It is a great language for intimidating your foes due to its harsh accents. Bards leading war parties often sing in Cyclopian because of this, as well as the fact most every word this language has rhymes with their word for “kill.” Unlike other languages, people do not have to understand the language to get the bonus effect.

Druidic is the language of nature. Animals respond to words spoken in druidic more easily than other languages due to the heavy emotion of the language.

Dwarven is the language of the Dwarves. It is the language of business. Typically, haggling is done in Dwarven. It shoes the seller that you mean business. It is a language with many varying accents given the widespread nature of the race.

Elven is the language of the Elves. Like Dwarven, there are many different dialects of Elven. Elven is a language that is fast paced and direct. This language is often used among those trying to hide their identity, as most everyone who speaks it sounds the same in both pitch and rhythm (except of course for the various accents).

Gnomish is the language of the Gnomes. Gnomish can be a very difficult language to understand and master given the nature of word inflection. As a result, it becomes easier to lie to someone while speaking Gnomish, though it becomes more difficult to tell if you’re being lied to.

Goblin is the language of the Goblins. It is often the language one turns to in drinking situations. More drinking songs are written in Goblin than in any other language. In party situations, strangers often become friendlier and more talkative if you speak to them in Goblin. There are three different accents among the Goblins that are quite different, those spoken by the goblins, orcs, and hobgoblins. The hobgoblin dialect is so different from goblin Goblin, that it instead makes soldiers and unopposed warriors more talkative and friendly.

Tauren is the language of the Centaurs. Tauren is a very precise and focused language. Many spellcasters find it helps them concentrate on their spells if they verbalize their spell in Tauren. The Centaurs are renowned for their archery abilities. They have many chants that have been passed down throughout the ages. These chants are said to focus the mind while preparing to strike a foe.

Language Effect
Aquan Speak and comprehend underwater
Cyclopian +2 Intimidate while in a war party
Druidic +2 Handle Animal
Dwarven +2 Diplomacy while haggling
Elfish +2 Disguise as an elf
Gnomish +2 Bluff
Goblin +2 Gather Information while partying (Goblin accent), or
+2 Gather Information from soldiers (Hobgoblin accent)
Tauren +2 Concentration when casting a spell using a ranged weapon

I'll add various bonuses to the extended language list as the party is exposed to those languages. What do you all think? The Tauren language is probably too powerful currently. I'll have to tweak that.

Words in orange represent edits.

Towa
2011-04-20, 07:38 PM
I love this idea, I think that DnD's language system really does need to be patched up a bit a lot.

I like the way you've handled it, although yeah, I agree the +2 concentration for being fluent in Tauren seems a bit over powered. Besides that, it looks pretty good.

NichG
2011-04-20, 07:45 PM
In 7thscape, which is a Planescape adaptation of the 7th Sea rules that I made, I had some mechanics for language acquisition.

Basically the idea was that you could always learn new languages, but you could invest to just start with them, or to become better at learning them. As such, there was a Languages skill, which you could make a check with every week of immersion in a new language. If you succeeded on the check, your proficiency would increase (and the DC to achieve the next level of proficiency would also be higher). Since 7th Sea has open-ended die rolls, this means that given enough time immersed in a language, most everyone would become fluent, but that the skill determines how long this would take.

So if I were to port this to D&D I'd do it as follows:

Language Fluency: There are several levels of fluency with a particular language. Poor fluency gives penalties on social rolls using that language (Bluff, Gather Information, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Disguise*, Decipher Script**).

*: For disguises that involve a vocal component in this language.
**: For written ciphers related to this language

- Smatterings: This is the minimum level at which you can communicate in a language. All social rolls take a -15 penalty and communications take four times the normal length of time.
- Passable: You speak the language in a choppy, stilted manner, but have most of the words and can work out meanings. All social rolls take a -5 penalty, and communications take twice as long.
- Fluent: You can speak the language evenly with very few missing words. There are no penalties to social rolls. However, it is possible for native speakers to determine that you are not a native speaker, which situationally provides a -5 on Bluff/Disguise to impersonate a native speaker.
- Native: You speak the language as a native, with no perceptible foreign accent and with full command of idioms.

Learn Language (Int)

Every month of immersion in an environment in which a particular language is spoken, you can make a single Learn Language check to attempt to pick up the language or increase your fluency.

DC 15: Learn Smatterings from None
DC 20: Learn Passable from Smatterings
DC 25: Learn Fluent from Passable
DC 35: Learn Native from Fluent

Epic uses:

By increasing the check DC by +10, you can reduce the amount of time needed to advance in the language by a factor of 2.

Airanath
2011-04-20, 07:49 PM
I like it, and I like it alot.
But I agree that the +2 on concentration is kinda overpowered. (Even more so as I use pathfinder rules, and there is no concentration skill, so any bonuses are even more valuable and overpowered)

Ping Pong Along
2011-04-20, 08:30 PM
In 7thscape, which is a Planescape adaptation of the 7th Sea rules that I made, I had some mechanics for language acquisition.

Basically the idea was that you could always learn new languages, but you could invest to just start with them, or to become better at learning them. As such, there was a Languages skill, which you could make a check with every week of immersion in a new language. If you succeeded on the check, your proficiency would increase (and the DC to achieve the next level of proficiency would also be higher). Since 7th Sea has open-ended die rolls, this means that given enough time immersed in a language, most everyone would become fluent, but that the skill determines how long this would take.

So if I were to port this to D&D I'd do it as follows:

Language Fluency: There are several levels of fluency with a particular language. Poor fluency gives penalties on social rolls using that language (Bluff, Gather Information, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Disguise*, Decipher Script**).

*: For disguises that involve a vocal component in this language.
**: For written ciphers related to this language

- Smatterings: This is the minimum level at which you can communicate in a language. All social rolls take a -15 penalty and communications take four times the normal length of time.
- Passable: You speak the language in a choppy, stilted manner, but have most of the words and can work out meanings. All social rolls take a -5 penalty, and communications take twice as long.
- Fluent: You can speak the language evenly with very few missing words. There are no penalties to social rolls. However, it is possible for native speakers to determine that you are not a native speaker, which situationally provides a -5 on Bluff/Disguise to impersonate a native speaker.
- Native: You speak the language as a native, with no perceptible foreign accent and with full command of idioms.

Learn Language (Int)

Every month of immersion in an environment in which a particular language is spoken, you can make a single Learn Language check to attempt to pick up the language or increase your fluency.

DC 15: Learn Smatterings from None
DC 20: Learn Passable from Smatterings
DC 25: Learn Fluent from Passable
DC 35: Learn Native from Fluent

Epic uses:

By increasing the check DC by +10, you can reduce the amount of time needed to advance in the language by a factor of 2.

Great stuff here, NichG. I don't think that I'll use the chance for learning a language part because a week can last a really long time in a campaign. I really like the language fluency ideas and will definitely incorporate them into the campaign.

NichG
2011-04-20, 08:41 PM
You can of course change the timescale to suit you. It's good for when the party has a massive intermission for some reason - characters can end up picking up the local languages or something as part of their downtime - or for low level groups using realistic timescales for things like voyages by sea (over which the party would pick up the languages of the crew).

Any by high level, you have a guy who can make the check with a +50 to the DC from items/Divine Insight/skill ranks who can learn languages in a day thanks to magic and epicness.

Lyndworm
2011-04-21, 05:07 PM
I really like this, and I'm subscribing so that I can check back. In my campaign I'll be using different languages than the standard, but I'm going to try to implement a system similar to this one. If I like it (my version) well enough, I may even post it in my Gatazka thread. (I tell you this only so that you know any exclusions on my part are purely accidental.)

Great work.

D Johnston
2011-04-21, 05:34 PM
Solid idea you've got here - I'll probably end up adapting it to one of my campaigns. Have you considered unshackling written and spoken languages? I've always found it odd that a system with a Middle Ages setting would assume that everyone is literate. It would make this system more complex, but also a lot more sensible. I have some other ideas, but they might make this too complicated and I appreciate the simplicity.

One more thought - Why do you get bonuses for mastering languages? That seems really unnecessary. Knowing a language is benefit enough. Adding bonuses seems like it could invite abuse, especially given that you're allowing players to select their own languages.

NichG
2011-04-21, 09:42 PM
Solid idea you've got here - I'll probably end up adapting it to one of my campaigns. Have you considered unshackling written and spoken languages? I've always found it odd that a system with a Middle Ages setting would assume that everyone is literate. It would make this system more complex, but also a lot more sensible. I have some other ideas, but they might make this too complicated and I appreciate the simplicity.

One more thought - Why do you get bonuses for mastering languages? That seems really unnecessary. Knowing a language is benefit enough. Adding bonuses seems like it could invite abuse, especially given that you're allowing players to select their own languages.

Well, speaking from my own experience, languages become irrelevant the second someone in the party gets a fairly consistent source of Comprehend Languages and/or Tongues. I suppose in exchange for making languages even harder to acquire (thus making those low-level spells more the goto solution), there are nice little bonuses associated with them that would not be duplicated by such measures. If the bonuses for really exotic languages were significant, it would even be an incentive to go seek out sources of those languages to learn from.

Ping Pong Along
2011-04-24, 06:03 PM
Solid idea you've got here - I'll probably end up adapting it to one of my campaigns. Have you considered unshackling written and spoken languages? I've always found it odd that a system with a Middle Ages setting would assume that everyone is literate. It would make this system more complex, but also a lot more sensible. I have some other ideas, but they might make this too complicated and I appreciate the simplicity.

One more thought - Why do you get bonuses for mastering languages? That seems really unnecessary. Knowing a language is benefit enough. Adding bonuses seems like it could invite abuse, especially given that you're allowing players to select their own languages.

You bring up a good point as far as the difference in written and spoken language. I'll try to come up with some rules for written literacy. I want to keep this system fairly simplistic. I had a number of ideas that would have been realistic, though too complex.

As far as the bonuses go, that's an incentive to go out and try to use the language. Right now, players typically don't try talking to people in anything but common. The only time it comes in handy is when I put creatures in that speak it. There isn't any reason to go out and try talking to people in the language. For most of these languages, there is a reason now. As NichG said, Comprehend Languages does make this complex system irrelevant. That's why in my game, Comprehend Languages only applies to the base languages. I'm going to make a Greater Comprehend Languages that applies to the rest.