What should the elf be like? [3.5]

[lesser_minion]

To me, the D&D elf is one of the biggest disappointments in the entire game. Even putting aside the fact that they're mechanically weak as a player race, their lore is simply bad. It contradicts itself, it contradicts the rules, and it contradicts what we might expect if elves existed in our world. Highlights include:

Elves refuse to slaughter animals for food because it "disrupts nature", but are perfectly willing to slaughter them for fashion purposes (elves are commonly depicted wearing leather armour of a design that would gain precisely nothing from being made of leather -- in other words, the use of leather serves as a fashion statement and nothing else).
Elves try to be self-sufficient, making their own personal weapons and armour. They also happen to favour swords. These are mutually exclusive.
Magic of Incarnum would like to inform us that elves make excellent incarnum-wielders. In game, elves take a penalty to the single most critical ability score for incarnum use. And in a stunning violation of WotC's general rule that "there's an elf for that", there is no incarnum elf subrace.
Elves adopt a primary style of warfare that relies heavily on stamina and physical endurance, two things that D&D elves do not have in abundance.
The famous "diverse range of different studies" that receives no attention whatsoever anywhere within the rules.
And of course, there's "so what exactly are these elves doing in the 85 years between becoming an adult and becoming a valid choice for a player character?" problem.


I'd like to think that elves aren't a dead-end cliché, and I'm pretty sure that they've been shown to work elsewhere (Exalted's jadeborn, for example, are an interesting depiction). So I think it's well worth trying to improve things.

Before I start, I'd like to see what other people think of elves. Do you have criticisms that I don't? Do you disagree with any of the criticisms I've made? Do you think elves are salvageable through simple touches? Or would you rather see radical surgery?

A few simple touches might give you something like Warhammer's elves, which follow the main elf tropes but put a lot of effort into being different, and not so much into being "in harmony with nature".

Radical surgery would potentially leave something that shares little with post-advanced elves beyond the name.

[LtPowers]

Before I start, I'd like to see what other people think of elves. Do you have criticisms that I don't? Do you disagree with any of the criticisms I've made? Do you think elves are salvageable through simple touches? Or would you rather see radical surgery?

I'll be honest -- I don't really get any of your criticisms.


Powers &8^]

[Mayhem]

My comments in green.


Elves refuse to slaughter animals for food because it "disrupts nature", but are perfectly willing to slaughter them for fashion purposes (elves are commonly depicted wearing leather armour of a design that would gain precisely nothing from being made of leather -- in other words, the use of leather serves as a fashion statement and nothing else). Couldn't agree more

Elves try to be self-sufficient, making their own personal weapons and armour. They also happen to favour swords. These are mutually exclusive.
:smallconfused: I don't get it. You're saying they couldn't possibly find iron by themselves?

They favour the longbow as a weapon, even though the vast majority of individuals with the D&D elf's build simply wouldn't be able to operate one.
What's wrong with their physique? They're just as strong as humans, and longbows are no harder to use than shortbows. If you think longbows are hard to draw, you're clearly thinking of composite longbows. I don't know anyone with a shortbow in real life but I know tonnes of women who use longbows and they aren't strong by a longshot.

Magic of Incarnum would like to inform us that elves make excellent incarnum-wielders. In game, elves take a penalty to the single most critical ability score for incarnum use. And in a stunning violation of WotC's general rule that "there's an elf for that", there is no incarnum elf subrace.
No comment for this but you're probably right.

Elves adopt a primary style of warfare that relies heavily on stamina and physical endurance, two things that D&D elves do not have in abundance.
Absolutely agree 100%. I guess the designers don't move around a lot. Still, while cheesy most of d&d is the same way so there's not a whole lot to do about that.

The famous "diverse range of different studies" that receives no attention whatsoever anywhere within the rules.
Yep.

And of course, there's "so what exactly are these elves doing in the 85 years between becoming an adult and becoming a valid choice for a player character?" problem.
That's true too. Giving them ranks in random perform, craft, and profession skills could help.



Do you think elves are salvageable through simple touches? Or would you rather see radical surgery?
Hmm... well I'm not sure on this one. Radical surgery I suppose.

[Thinker]

Rebuild them.

[lesser_minion]

Elves try to be self-sufficient, making their own personal weapons and armour. They also happen to favour swords. These are mutually exclusive.

I don't get it. You're saying they couldn't possibly find iron by themselves?

Raw materials aren't really the issue (it is possible to mine in a forest, the real question is whether or not the elves want to) -- the problem lies in the fact that swords are very hard to make (http://www.thearma.org/essays/How_Were_Swords_Made.htm). Note that there are very few elves who can cast fabricate.

Someone who 'dabbles' in craftsmanship might be able to decorate a blade, or even help someone who does know what they are doing, but the bottom line is that swords were expensive for a reason.


What's wrong with their physique? They're just as strong as humans, and longbows are no harder to use than shortbows. If you think longbows are hard to draw, you're clearly thinking of composite longbows. I don't know anyone with a shortbow in real life but I know tonnes of women who use longbows and they aren't strong by a longshot.

It actually varies from bow to bow -- different bows do have a different draw weight. The real issue is that the D&D longbow is implied to be the same weapon as the English longbow, which required constant practice and above-average strength in order to use effectively.

D&D bows are kind of weird anyway -- the composite longbow seems to be more of a mash-up of bows produced by about six different cultures.

I don't particularly agree with the view that elves are just as strong as humans -- what the rules say an elf is seems to be at odds with what an elf would be on that front.

[CaptainPlatypus]

As regards swords, Mayhem, forging a sword takes quite a bit of specialized knowledge - maybe that's what they're spending 85 years learning, but the rules show no evidence for that. :smalltongue:

As regards longbows, elves are short according to the rules. They max out at what, 5'6" or so? Effective use of a longbow requires height because the physics of the weapon (assuming it's not composite, in which case what the hell is it doing in a fantasy setting, composite bows?) depend on both, well, a long bow, as well as a long draw distance, to deal damage and be effective at range. Yeah, historically humans were the same height or shorter for most of history - but D&D humans are significantly taller than D&D elves, so....

Really, I'd be 100% behind an elf overhaul, though I disagree that the primary style of elven warfare involves strength and endurance - I disagree that there is a primary style of elven warfare, in fact. I could say that the primary style of elven warfare involved massive-scale bribery due to hyperefficient industry and cite the incredible production capabilities of Santa's elves as evidence, and that would be just as valid as quoting Tolkein or anyone else. :smalltongue:

I'd be very tempted to simply play on the long life and make them skillmonkeys. Take away the current racial characteristics, ability score modifiers included (especially the bloody trance and everything associated with it), give them racial skills (skills all elves have as class skills) and something like 4 extra skill points per level. And then get rid of the "there's an elf for that" thing!

[Solaris]

Elves refuse to slaughter animals for food because it "disrupts nature", but are perfectly willing to slaughter them for fashion purposes (elves are commonly depicted wearing leather armour of a design that would gain precisely nothing from being made of leather -- in other words, the use of leather serves as a fashion statement and nothing else).
What? Who told you elves live in 'harmony' with nature, like some good-for-nothing druids? Elves control nature. They shape it to their whim, even create new species to serve them. It only looks like they live in harmony because they're so good at it.


Elves adopt a primary style of warfare that relies heavily on stamina and physical endurance, two things that D&D elves do not have in abundance.
If you do guerrilla warfare wrong, perhaps. Elves shouldn't do 'hit-and-run' tactics so much as they should do 'hit-and-fade' tactics. They prepare the battlefield beforehand by ensuring they have lots of hidey-holes, then they take potshots in the middle of the night before dipping out to evade pursuit. If you're operating against humans (or even critters with darkvision), it's a lot more doable than you might think. A knock-down drag-out firefight is a human (or dwarven) idea; an elf is not interested in a fight that goes on longer than a minute or two. I imagine they'd use tactics very similar to those the insurgency uses in Iraq and Afghanistan. I'd also imagine that the elf who gets caught in a fight with a human or dwarf is screwed, if only because the elf can't keep up a fight for as long as the human or dwarf could.


And of course, there's "so what exactly are these elves doing in the 85 years between becoming an adult and becoming a valid choice for a player character?" problem.
Being teenagers. Just because elves live long doesn't mean they do anything useful with all of those years. Personally, I'd put an experience penalty on elves to make 'em slow down level gain - but that'd probably require wandering into LA.


As regards longbows, elves are short according to the rules. They max out at what, 5'6" or so? Effective use of a longbow requires height because the physics of the weapon (assuming it's not composite, in which case what the hell is it doing in a fantasy setting, composite bows?) depend on both, well, a long bow, as well as a long draw distance, to deal damage and be effective at range. Yeah, historically humans were the same height or shorter for most of history - but D&D humans are significantly taller than D&D elves, so....
Problem solved. Elves are as tall as historical humans, therefore they can use the historical longbow. Wander too far into this (like saying humans could use better longbows because they're taller) and we start getting into different sword lengths for different wielders. That's just diminishing returns.

[lesser_minion]

What? Who told you elves live in 'harmony' with nature, like some good-for-nothing druids? Elves control nature. They shape it to their whim, even create new species to serve them. It only looks like they live in harmony because they're so good at it.

"Elves eat little, and although they are omnivorous, they eat more plants than meat. This is partly because of their affinity with nature (elves believe that a harvested plant causes less disruption to nature than a slain animal)...".

It doesn't imply strict vegetarianism, but the upshot is still the same -- as far as D&D lore is concerned, elves consider fashion to be more important than eating.


Being teenagers. Just because elves live long doesn't mean they do anything useful with all of those years. Personally, I'd put an experience penalty on elves to make 'em slow down level gain - but that'd probably require wandering into LA.

Elves already get the shaft in D&D. I have no desire to make that problem worse.


Problem solved. Elves are as tall as historical humans, therefore they can use the historical longbow. Wander too far into this (like saying humans could use better longbows because they're taller) and we start getting into different sword lengths for different wielders. That's just diminishing returns.

Perhaps, although my impression is that elves would still have a lighter build than a human of above-average strength.

EDIT: It looks to me like you'd need a strength score of 14 just to be able to bench the draw weight of an English longbow. I'm pretty sure the actual strength score needed would be even higher.

[Ashtagon]

Being teenagers. Just because elves live long doesn't mean they do anything useful with all of those years. Personally, I'd put an experience penalty on elves to make 'em slow down level gain - but that'd probably require wandering into LA.

Consider that we as modern humans are "being teenagers" right through to age 21 as often as not these days. Our medieval counterparts left that stage at age 15. We could just as easily ask what we are doing now with those six years. That's what the elves are doing, only more so.

I just give my elves a bonus 4 skill points at 1st level (no additional skill points at later levels) to account for what they did in their "teens".


Perhaps, although my impression is that elves would still have a lighter build than a human of above-average strength.

Of course, I also give my elves a carrying capacity as if they were one size class smaller.

[Solaris]

"Elves eat little, and although they are omnivorous, they eat more plants than meat. This is partly because of their affinity with nature (elves believe that a harvested plant causes less disruption to nature than a slain animal)...".

It doesn't imply strict vegetarianism, but the upshot is still the same -- as far as D&D lore is concerned, elves consider fashion to be more important than eating.
I'm aware that's what WotC and TSR put out. I was offering an alternative interpretation.
Another would be that their leather lasts a really long time, or that elves, while eating less meat than modern Americans, still eat about as much as medieval Europeans.


Elves already get the shaft in D&D. I have no desire to make that problem worse.
Adding on an LA would also require making them worth the LA - which, at the very least, would mean they'd need to lose the CON penalty.


Perhaps, although my impression is that elves would still have a lighter build than a human of above-average strength.
Eh. I have a physique that's pretty similar to an elf's (albeit on the top end of their range). I look pretty scrawny, especially compared to most of the guys I work with. When we do combatives, I throw around guys who outweigh me by a good fifty pounds with brute force alone (God knows it ain't technique). Bulk and strength don't necessarily equate. This reflects in the elf's distinct lack of a Strength penalty. I have to work harder for endurance than I do for burst strength, and I'm easier to break than a bigger Joe is - which is in line with the Constitution penalty. I'm a clumsy stumbleduck, though, so at least there's that break. Thus, it seems rather fishy for you to be saying that because elves are skinny, they can't use a longbow.

[lesser_minion]

Consider that we as modern humans are "being teenagers" right through to age 21 as often as not these days. Our medieval counterparts left that stage at age 15. We could just as easily ask what we are doing now with those six years. That's what the elves are doing, only more so.

For the most part, full-time education. From 15, you have your last year of school, one or two years of college/sixth form, and three to seven years of uni ahead of you.

By the time you finish that, you should have learned to cook, if nothing else (the students who try to subsist on peanut butter, chocolate spread, and pot noodles are generally the ones who are only semi-catered and aren't allowed cooking equipment in their rooms).


Eh. I have a physique that's pretty similar to an elf's (albeit on the top end of their range). I look pretty scrawny, especially compared to most of the guys I work with. When we do combatives, I throw around guys who outweigh me by a good fifty pounds with brute force alone (God knows it ain't technique). Bulk and strength don't necessarily equate. This reflects in the elf's distinct lack of a Strength penalty. I have to work harder for endurance than I do for burst strength, and I'm easier to break than a bigger Joe is - which is in line with the Constitution penalty. I'm a clumsy stumbleduck, though, so at least there's that break. Thus, it seems rather fishy for you to be saying that because elves are skinny, they can't use a longbow.

There's more to strength than raw muscle mass, sure -- muscle density does play a part. But there's a limit to how far you can get on density alone.

Note that the D&D rules effectively forbid humans from using longbows effectively as well (a human can't attain the requisite strength score on the average array, and I'm not convinced it's even possible using the elite array) -- it's not just an elf thing.

[Morph Bark]

Note that the D&D rules effectively forbid humans from using longbows effectively as well (a human can't attain the requisite strength score on the average array, and I'm not convinced it's even possible using the elite array) -- it's not just an elf thing.

Wait, what? Having done archery myself for 3 years, I'd like to hear your explanation on this please. :smallconfused:

[Yora]

Rebuild them.

Refluff them.

I don't see any problems with the racial traits of elves. All the points mentioned in the first post are contradictions in fluff.

[Eldan]

I actually switched to javelins and shortspears as the default elf weapons. Seemed to make more sense to me.

[Solaris]

For the most part, full-time education. From 15, you have your last year of school, one or two years of college/sixth form, and three to seven years of uni ahead of you.

By the time you finish that, you should have learned to cook, if nothing else (the students who try to subsist on peanut butter, chocolate spread, and pot noodles are generally the ones who are only semi-catered and aren't allowed cooking equipment in their rooms).
Yes, that's pretty much what we said. Your brain doesn't really hit 'mature' until around 21-23, so why is it so much of a stretch for an elf's to take significantly longer? They're already plenty unnatural with their stupid-long lifespans, so why not have a prolonged period of adolescence as a side-affect?


There's more to strength than raw muscle mass, sure -- muscle density does play a part. But there's a limit to how far you can get on density alone.
I have the rough equivalent of STR 16. I know a guy who's smaller than me with STR 18 (going by the carry capacity tables and the results of us fooling around in the gym). Mass is highly overrated.


Note that the D&D rules effectively forbid humans from using longbows effectively as well (a human can't attain the requisite strength score on the average array, and I'm not convinced it's even possible using the elite array) -- it's not just an elf thing.
Where? You can't be talking about composite longbows, the minimum for one of those is +0, STR 10. Regular longbows don't even list a minimum STR score.

[Thinker]

Refluff them.

I don't see any problems with the racial traits of elves. All the points mentioned in the first post are contradictions in fluff.

If you're going to go to the trouble of refluffing them, you might as well fix the flaws in their mechanics as well. You can rebuild them with better mechanics based on better fluff.

[lesser_minion]

Wait, what? Having done archery myself for 3 years, I'd like to hear your explanation on this please. :smallconfused:

The draw weight of an English longbow (up to 220 lb, according to wiki) matches up to what a strength 14 or 15 character can bench. So it's already out of reach of the 'average' humans.

And that's the lower bound. The real answer would probably be higher.

It seems like the actual problem is that the rules consider high ability scores to be harder to attain than they actually would be. Although I'm not entirely convinced that the D&D rules for bows aren't entirely borked anyway.

Admittedly, Wikipedia does seem to support the idea that 'longbow' != 'English longbow'. So it's not as implausible as I originally suggested for elves to use the weapon D&D describes as a longbow.


Refluff them.

They also get the shaft mechanically -- classes where dexterity is more important than constitution aren't that common, and there are no classes with constitution as a dump stat.

Automatically pinging secret doors is strictly weaker than stonecunning (a scenario where secret doors don't constitute unusual stonework essentially requires intentional contrivance on the part of the DM).

The +2 bonus to spot checks is not generally useful unless you're already the highest spot check in the party, and the same goes for listen checks and search checks (for almost all of these, you get one check for every party member and use the best result).

Nifty colour low-light vision is, well, nifty, but not unique in the slightest.

Sleep immunity isn't entirely horrible for the first few levels. After that, it's entirely worthless because everyone gets it for free anyway.

And the free elf weapon proficiencies are next to worthless -- there are very few character classes who could get any real mileage out of those weapons without getting them for free.

[Morph Bark]

The draw weight of an English longbow (up to 220 lb, according to wiki) matches up to what a strength 14 or 15 character can bench. So it's already out of reach of the 'average' humans.

And that's the lower bound. The real answer would probably be higher.

It seems like the actual problem is that the rules consider high ability scores to be harder to attain than they actually would be. Although I'm not entirely convinced that the D&D rules for bows aren't entirely borked anyway.

If "bench" equals "maximum carrying capacity", IIRC that would be 100 pounds for a Str 10 character. 200 for Str 15, 400 for Str 20. Also, you've listed the upper bound rather than the lower.

Furthermore, hunting bows had a lower draw weight and DnD doesn't seem to distinguish between an "English" longbow and a hunting bow (though I suppose it might be represented by a shortbow).

[lesser_minion]

If "bench" equals "maximum carrying capacity", IIRC that would be 100 pounds for a Str 10 character. 200 for Str 15, 400 for Str 20. Also, you've listed the upper bound rather than the lower.

It's the lower bound for the minimum strength requirement. My overall impression is that being able to bench press a given weight does not entail being able to use a bow with the same draw weight.

Although yes, hunting bows do typically have a much lower draw weight than military ones. It's not as bad a trope as I made it out to be.

[Solaris]

Another project on the HB forum has suggested the idea of LA +1 elves, too. Here's some ideas rolling around in my head for that (and bear in mind they're not all gonna work with each other):
- Elves are spellcasters: Give 'em spellcasting as a 1st-level wizard on top of what they receive from classes (this stacks if they're a wizard, making an ECL 2 elf cast as well as a 2nd-level wizard). This has the added benefit of helping to balance out the LA downshift. Of course, it's most of a 1st-level class ability, which is arguably in and of itself worth a +1 to LA.
- Elves are guerrillas: Elves have Endurance and Run as bonus feats, and if they're not also spellcasters they don't take a penalty to Constitution.
- Elves are ninjas: Give 'em bonuses in the realm of +2 to +4 to all the movement-based skills, like Jump, Climb, Move Silently, Hide (or maybe just those skills, really). They're arboreal in fluff, let's help make 'em arboreal in fact.
- Elves are wise: They already have a bonus to Will saves, so a +2 bonus to Wisdom falls in line.
- Elves are beautiful: Bonuses to Gather Information and Diplomacy as well as a possible +2 to Charisma. Perhaps some sort of charm aura that works similar to the frightful presence mechanic; low enough save DC that PCs could ignore it, high enough that mere mortals could be bewitched by the fey.

[Yora]

If "bench" equals "maximum carrying capacity", IIRC that would be 100 pounds for a Str 10 character. 200 for Str 15, 400 for Str 20. Also, you've listed the upper bound rather than the lower.

Furthermore, hunting bows had a lower draw weight and DnD doesn't seem to distinguish between an "English" longbow and a hunting bow (though I suppose it might be represented by a shortbow).
The "longbow" is as much an "english longbow" as a longsword is a "german longsword". In Afrika and South America people are using bows that are as long as the user is tall, which would also fall into the weapon type "longbow", while I think a "shortbow" would be 3/4 of that length and shorter.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

It's the lower bound for the minimum strength requirement. My overall impression is that being able to bench press a given weight does not entail being able to use a bow with the same draw weight.

I'd say vice-versa, actually. I'm serious lacking in the area of upper body strength, but I can still fire a 100-pound draw longbow with reasonable accuracy and ease. I can only bench about 60 pounds though. Something about the leverage applied to a bow makes it easier.

[Mayhem]

Raw materials aren't really the issue (it is possible to mine in a forest, the real question is whether or not the elves want to) -- the problem lies in the fact that swords are very hard to make. I know swords aren't easy to make, I've even made some myself. I don't see how a creature with around 700 years of adult lifes can't master what our ancestors did with their meager 5-10 adult years :smallconfused:.
You're prefectly justified in saying you don't like how they prefer swords of course, that's just a culture thing. I think it was just one slight conceit to make elf wizards somewhat viable but that's another rant all on it's own :smallwink:. There's also the problem of elves not reproducing a whole lot, so that's a plausible reason for the lack of decent steel weapon smiths.


It actually varies from bow to bow -- different bows do have a different draw weight. The real issue is that the D&D longbow is implied to be the same weapon as the English longbow, which required constant practice and above-average strength in order to use effectively.
I did archery for 5 years, so I know they have different draw weights. But that doesn't mean a 5ft long bow can't be fired by a young girl 300m like the d&d stats say they should be able to. 30m, the first d&d longbow increment, is generally where adult archery starts at the local archery club.
Yora said it better than I ever could.

You could just change the longbow's range increment, you know a single value, instead of changing everything else :smalltongue:.
Well, how about axing the elves' weapon proficiencies altogether?

I don't particularly agree with the view that elves are just as strong as humans -- what the rules say an elf is seems to be at odds with what an elf would be on that front.
If you don't think elves should be as strong, that's cool let's just add it to the list of changes. I can't see fluff in the PHB why though.
Actually, you could start with these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf) stats from the monster manual as a start which tackle your strength problem and somewhat start on adressing why they aren't smarter.

[lesser_minion]

I know swords aren't easy to make, I've even made some myself. I don't see how a creature with around 700 years of adult lifes can't master what our ancestors did with their meager 5-10 adult years :smallconfused:.

In the medieval era, swordsmithing simply could not be done 'casually'. Sure, an elf who wanted to be a swordsmith could be a swordsmith. They could get pretty good at it.

But we're not talking about a few elves who feel like putting their minds to it. RotW implies that Every single elf over the age of 25 is capable of manufacturing semi-decent swords. From raw ore. I don't buy it, and I don't particularly want to buy it -- if true, it would basically mean elves reaching a whole new height of the same obnoxious superiority I'm planning to beat out of them.

[CaptainPlatypus]

The difference, iirc, is that the pull weight of a bow is a measure of the full force required to draw it - whereas weights are measured in, well, weight. I could easily be wrong, though - it's been a while.

I like the idea of LA+1 wizard-castin' elves a lot.

[Set]

My elf-thoughts;
Stat modifiers become -2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Cha. Elves are nimble, lean, slight-of-build and have an ethereal, fey presence that many find enticing, if not always traditionally 'beautiful,' but are not sickly or unhealthy or prone to physical enervation in the sense that a Con penalty would suggest. Indeed, being outdoorsly folk with extraordinary lifespans and very low rates of reproduction, a Con penalty is arse-backwards, and, IMO, a failure of flavor to fit function.

Elven children rarely want any one thing, they want *everything.* It is not always enough to master their innate fey magical heritage and become a sorcerer, or to take advantage of their grace and flexibility to master the arts of the rogue or fighter. For every elf that is able to focus their personal development in this way, there is another than chooses to become a bard, ranger, duskblade, magus or similar class that does not limit them from being both students of the sword and the spell.

Elves are fickle creatures, living almost entirely in the moment, with little regard for 'tradition' or promises made yesterday. As such, surrounding folk recognize them as inherently unreliable and even dangerous, as dark moods can take an elf like a wildfire, and they can turn on even what seems to be their closest friend over a perceived slight or petulant whim. Their emotions are strong, burning hot, but fast, and moments after lashing out at an ally in a fit of pique, and elf might be overcome with regret. That regret, unfortunately, will fade as fast as the temper did, and by the next day, at the latest, the elf will care nothing for any long-term bad feelings engendered the previous day. Comparisons of elves to cats, sharks or children are not unfair, as they can be calm and fascinating one moment, and selfish and cruel the next. Called out for such behavior, and elf is likely to be perplexed, as it's simply their nature, and what they grew up accustomed to. If an elf ever apologizes, it is a hollow stirring of the air, made for the benefit of someone that doesn't understand how little they carry around such emotional baggage, for good or ill.

Human druids note that extensive interaction with elven-folk makes for a good regimen of training for anyone who would interact with the fey, who, if anything, are even more capricious, fickle and unsympathetic.

As a result of this hot-blooded, quick-to-cool, nature, elven warriors are as likely to be barbarians as rangers, with only a few having the discipline or patience necessary to become fighters.

While it's easy to note that their mercurial natures, unwilling to commit to any one path, sends them disproportionately into careers like bard and ranger, it's also true that the one thing that can be said consistently about elves is that they are contrary beings. While the roles of monk and paladin may seem the last choices the 'average' elf would choose, elves can be as stubborn and contrary as any other, and there will always be the rare elf who 'has to be different' and whole-heartedly embraces such a path, taking the dismissal of his peers as encouragement to continue defying elven 'tradition.'

While elves are innately magical, through some fey heritage, not every elf is equally strong in this potential, and elven wizards are not unknown, among those whose sorcerous potential is 'weak' or 'thin.' Such elves stubbornly refuse to surrender to the 'weakness' of their blood, and choose to follow less traditionally elven arcane training, to master the magic that *should* have been their birthright. Such elves are more likely to view magic as a servant, that they have beaten into obedience, taking out their frustration at having been born absent the gift of sorcery, and exhibiting great pride in their increased access to spells, compared to a sorcerer of equal experience. Elven wizards are more likely to be adventurers than elven sorcerers, eager to broaden their arcane knowledge (and equally eager to avoid their more innately gifted kin, who may look down upon them for having to 'struggle and work' to master what every elf should be able to do naturally).

.

Going in the opposite direction, and making the fluff fit the mechanics (particularly the Con penalty), I'd describe elves as sickly, producing a fair number of children, but being more prone to the death of the mother, or the early death of the children, keeping their numbers low. They would come from some other world, perhaps a fey realm, and be inherently unnatural and out of touch with the natural world. They try and try to either adapt themselves to the material world, or the material world to themselves, but continually fail to do so. The taste of earthly food is barely enough to sustain them, due to their alien nature and difficulty metabolizing the alien flora and fauna of this world, and they constantly endure discomfort.

Growing up over a century punctuated by the deaths of siblings or mothers, elves grow hard and cold, seeing the natural world itself as out to kill them (which, due to their alien metabolisms, isn't far from the truth), and more accustomed to grief than the healthier races that cannot truly understand how grim and hostile the very world itself seems to them.

Their weakness as a species (and prideful unwillingness to compromise) has resulted in them being driven out of most civilized lands, and forced to live in the forests or other untamed areas, unclaimed (or, at least, with claims unenforced) by surroundiing nations. The harsh conditions only exacerbate their health issues, as they are often forced to hunt and forage in dangerous monster-haunted wilderness areas, endure exposure to the elements, and be continually exposed to new contagions, the risk of infection, etc. keeping their already low numbers in a constant state of threat. Like many peoples who feel threatened, they have adopted a siege mentality, that only drives away potential allies and alienates their neighbors, accelerating the chances
of their seemingly inevitable extinction.

Even if some powerful magic or divinely-empowered change were to transform the entire elven race and make them as hearty and healthy as a halfling or human, allowing their numbers to expand, instead of contract, year by year, their ingrained fear of the outside world and increasingly insular and isolationist 'seige mentality' nature would likely still spell their eventual doom.

Shows like Alien Nation, District Nine or The Event offer varying examples of 'alien' cultures attempting to live in worlds that are varying levels of incompatible with or unsympathetic to their continued presence, and could serve as guidelines for how to play such an elf, to whom the entire world they live in is alien and hostile.

I'm less fond of this variation, but it would at least make the 'fluff' match up to the 'crunch.'

[lesser_minion]

Making them LA +1 is an interesting idea, but it's not something that particularly appeals to me.

Another thing that's absolutely critical here is that elves should have something unique. Having everything an elf can do either be worthless or something everyone else can do -- the way the rules currently portray elves, in other words -- is just as bad as the obnoxious superiority they enjoy in the fluff.

Giving elves a free level of wizard casting in exchange for +1 LA doesn't really fit that bill IMHO.

Fluff-wise, I think the goal is for individual elves to vary. I don't really want to give them a 'hat' at all. That applies to otherworldliness as well -- elves aren't the exact same as humans, but they aren't always that different either.

[Icedaemon]

Condense elves into specialized separate groups. The high elves are the ultimate poser race. They steal ancient dwarven chain mail, crudely refit it to suit themselves and claim it as their invention. They claim to be the most advanced civilisation ever, but the only thing they ever came up with first was plastic surgery. They make contradictory rules for others, but do not actually follow them.

Wood elf is also a common form of elf, perhaps the most widespread and one of the few I tolerate. They should utilize every part of every animal they kill and probably be rabidly insular.

'Elves are superior' is just a bad idea though. It has been hammered onto so many settings by now that it can ruin a very good new setting, in my opinion at least.

[Solaris]

Making them LA +1 is an interesting idea, but it's not something that particularly appeals to me.

Another thing that's absolutely critical here is that elves should have something unique. Having everything an elf can do either be worthless or something everyone else can do -- the way the rules currently portray elves, in other words -- is just as bad as the obnoxious superiority they enjoy in the fluff.

Giving elves a free level of wizard casting in exchange for +1 LA doesn't really fit that bill IMHO.
Well, if you've got a better idea... Maybe something incarnum-related?
With my elf rewrite, I opened up their Keen Senses to everything hidden, not just secret doors. I also granted 'em boosts to the skills I'd mentioned, and I made it so that they're a race of low-grade spellcasters. I use slightly different spellcasting mechanics in my game, though, and their power level is somewhere around an apprentice's.


Fluff-wise, I think the goal is for individual elves to vary. I don't really want to give them a 'hat' at all. That applies to otherworldliness as well -- elves aren't the exact same as humans, but they aren't always that different either.
Basically... each subrace isn't really a 'subrace' so much as it is an elf who picked a certain path over their years? So you could have a wild elf whose parents are a high elf and a grey elf, whose sister is an aquatic elf and brother is a jungle elf. Seems the simplest solution to me without homebrewing up an attempt at remaking the human wheel.

[lesser_minion]

Basically... each subrace isn't really a 'subrace' so much as it is an elf who picked a certain path over their years? So you could have a wild elf whose parents are a high elf and a grey elf, whose sister is an aquatic elf and brother is a jungle elf. Seems the simplest solution to me without homebrewing up an attempt at remaking the human wheel.

I don't really want anyone to end up with a hat if I can avoid it. I'd rather not stick one on the elves, and if I ever get to the dwarves they can expect to lose theirs as well (although the dwarf clichés are actually pretty fun).

Elves should be different, not superior. This extends to every aspect of their culture and behaviour.

[Golden-Esque]

Consider that we as modern humans are "being teenagers" right through to age 21 as often as not these days. Our medieval counterparts left that stage at age 15. We could just as easily ask what we are doing now with those six years. That's what the elves are doing, only more so.

The expected lifespan of a human in medieval times was also much shorter then it is today. One could say that as lifespan increases, the period of time where one is considered "too young to be accountable" also increases. Whose to say its not true for elves too?

For most of my long-lived races, I assume that they are "physically" adults by age 25 or so, but social stigmatization makes such individuals leaving for adventures unlikely because they are still considered children in the eyes of their older peers.

[TrueLazy]

Elves being the absolute and upmost favorite race of mine in whole 3.5 d&d, I am probably going to disagree with 90% of what has been put forth here. (still have to read through everything carefully)

Overhauling that race because you deem it weak is a opinion based on what kind of campaigns/tastes you have and completely yours to make. Not really supporting making big changes or completely renewing the race, but that's a choice not for me to make.

As for the stuff that has been put forth that I like to put my two cent in, that will most likely have to wait till tomorrow when I got time. (1am atm and gotta be up early)

Just do note that I am pretty damn sure that any race with information from various sources (books) will have contradictions and most likely doesn't make all too much sense in every single section. To zoom in on just the elves is rather weird thing to do in my eyes because of this, but yeah.. opinions/decisions, we all have and make our own. :smallsmile:

[nyarlathotep]

Elves being the absolute and upmost favorite race of mine in whole 3.5 d&d, I am probably going to disagree with 90% of what has been put forth here. (still have to read through everything carefully)

Overhauling that race because you deem it weak is a opinion based on what kind of campaigns/tastes you have and completely yours to make. Not really supporting making big changes or completely renewing the race, but that's a choice not for me to make.

As for the stuff that has been put forth that I like to put my two cent in, that will most likely have to wait till tomorrow when I got time. (1am atm and gotta be up early)

Just do note that I am pretty damn sure that any race with information from various sources (books) will have contradictions and most likely doesn't make all too much sense in every single section. To zoom in on just the elves is rather weird thing to do in my eyes because of this, but yeah.. opinions/decisions, we all have and make our own. :smallsmile:

Elves being weaker than most other player races (human, dwarf, halfling, gnome) is no opinion it is fact (barring dark chaos shuffle cheese).

Also just because the OP wants to fix elves does not mean that they dont want to fix the other race's inconsistencies too just that elves are first to be tuned up

[CaptainPlatypus]

Comparing other races to humans isn't really fair - humans (and strongheart halflings) are a fair bit stronger than most other races simply because free feats outweigh just about every other benefits.

And really, elves are quite nice mechanically (especially for guard duty), but I personally don't like their flavor.

[Icedaemon]

I don't really want anyone to end up with a hat if I can avoid it. I'd rather not stick one on the elves, and if I ever get to the dwarves they can expect to lose theirs as well (although the dwarf clichés are actually pretty fun).

Elves should be different, not superior. This extends to every aspect of their culture and behaviour.

One thing that I am doing on Walufar is that elves are the insular jungle-folk. Their long lives are not just taken for granted - elves guard themselves very carefully. The fact that they might live hundreds of years also means that they are not the 'wasteful today' sort - resources are carefully managed and possible temporary luxuries mostly ignored. This is combined with a certain dark past regarding to how elves came to be in the first place.

[TrueLazy]

Elves being weaker than most other player races (human, dwarf, halfling, gnome) is no opinion it is fact (barring dark chaos shuffle cheese).

Also just because the OP wants to fix elves does not mean that they dont want to fix the other race's inconsistencies too just that elves are first to be tuned up

Fact.. not quite, it's still a opinion. Simply because everyone looks at a race different, where you obviously (I assume that out of your reply) look at just the mechanic abilities that Elven race grants your character, I look beyond the mechanic and also look at the roleplay aspect/power of playing a Elven character.
I don't have to tell anyone that d&d is a roleplaying game, where as roleplaying aspect differs with each campaign, dm and players, it always played a big aspect in any game I have been. Because of this i learned that the society of Elves and everything around is a giant benefactor to playing the race in my eyes (opinion) and balances the race out easily compared to the mechanic abilities the Human race gives. (this is all without even counting a player background, because that can benefact any character evenly)

Other then that, if one just looks solely at mechanic abilities of a race then it's still only a opinion wheter one is stronger then the other. Why?
Simply because people have different tastes and views on things, they value and judge things differently. Simple fact remains that the same applies to the strenght of a race or class, it's a opinion based on one's value that they seek for in a character or just like.
For example, some people value the meditation instead of sleep highly and place Elves because of that above Humans, other just deem the value of a extra feat way more worthy and thus place Humans above Elves.
How about the fact that maybe some people love their immunity to sleep effects and that racial bonus to echantment spells and effects? That value is based on one's opinion of what they seek in their character, not based on.. wait..... on what do you base strenght of actually? (isn't whatever you base the strenght of races on in core just a opinion you have that alot of people most likely share?)




Now to get to the point what Lesser Minion raised up on the highlights of Elves that just seem off or completely weird and perhaps even wrong.


Elves refuse to slaughter animals for food because it "disrupts nature", but are perfectly willing to slaughter them for fashion purposes (elves are commonly depicted wearing leather armour of a design that would gain precisely nothing from being made of leather -- in other words, the use of leather serves as a fashion statement and nothing else).
First of all, slaughtering is a term misplaced or explaining what's wrong with this statement at the very beginning. Elves indeed refuse to slaughter animals for food, because they only take as much as needed. Such a thing can't be seen as slaughter nor is it labeled as slaughter by Elves. In fact, the taking of more animal lives for bigger feasts and/or for the fun (hunting as a sport) for example is what Elves see as slaughter and refuse to do.
I could be wrong, but I never saw anywhere the fact that Elves were willing to "slaughter" animals for fashion purposes. Might want to point out where you read such a thing, because I am completely blank on where to find this part.

Further more, as RoW states: "Leathers and furs are reguarly used to endow clothing with strenght and protection. Leather is always tanned to a fine, supple texture."

If I am not mistaken (my english ain't the best) that does mean that it's used to it's outmost potential for other purposes then looks and also not to waste anything they get their hands on, so they don't have to go onto slaughtering to get what they need.


Elves try to be self-sufficient, making their own personal weapons and armour. They also happen to favour swords. These are mutually exclusive.
True, it's commenly known that they aren't exactly rolling around in the minerals to make such items. But that doesn't mean they can't supply themselves, does it?

Do know that the Elven population is nothing like that of a human population, they are way less in numbers. That simply alone brings in the factor of having to make waaaay less equipment for their people.
To further explain this, do note that Elves communities is one based on trading favors. One does something for a other to get something in return, this in place of using actual money. This simply means that Elves do not go out and manufacture weapons for actual "mass" sale like the Humans often do.

So not only do they make less weapons because of population, but also based on demand. Further more, as stated in RoW ("Elves consider war a last resort for resolving disputes), their need for weapons and armor is not as big as let's say the Humans or Dwarves have. Both those races are more known to wage armed fights to well equipped big warfare.

Then, with their long lifespan and their desire to not waste any resource (even more of this share nature to them), it's easy to conclude that a Elf doesn't waste a given sword or armor. Almost everything made by them is done with the consideration of art and craftsmanship in the back of their head, meaning they will not let it go to waste and all will most likely be handed down in generations, which lowers the need and demand even more.

As for the art of making/forging weapons and armors, that isn't such a art that only the Dwarves can handle. Heck, Humans can make it, why not Elves who live only like.. 10x times as long. There only has to be a few Elves to that know the art to pass it on, because with their lifespan it's easily to pass it on multiple times to the younger generations.


Magic of Incarnum would like to inform us that elves make excellent incarnum-wielders. In game, elves take a penalty to the single most critical ability score for incarnum use. And in a stunning violation of WotC's general rule that "there's an elf for that", there is no incarnum elf subrace.
I almost feel silly quoting this, but here goes anyways: "Elves delight in incarnum because it's a magic of life and living things."

So, that alone should... I don't know, be the reason why?
D&D is more then just a mechanical system, really.. there is more to it.

Further more, having a race penalty to a ability score that is often used for a class doesn't outright mean that the race doesn't mix well with that class. Yes, it's a downer, but there are other reasons to consider and to take into account then just that part. (unless you play in a campaign where solely the mechanic system matters....)

Also, while I am absolutely not familiar with Magic of Incarnum in any way, I couldn't find anywhere that it states that Elves make, as you put it, "excellent incarnum-wielders." Care to point it out for me?


Elves adopt a primary style of warfare that relies heavily on stamina and physical endurance, two things that D&D elves do not have in abundance.

I really like to know where you caught this part from..... because in my eyes it can't be find anywhere. (could be wrong of course)
So if you would be so kind to point out where this piece of lore comes from then I will see what logic I can make out of it (or not... worst case).


The famous "diverse range of different studies" that receives no attention whatsoever anywhere within the rules.
No? Really? Because out of the top of my head I can recall a feat in RoW that resembles this very aspect. *searching it up*

Elf Dilettante (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-839-elf-dilettante.html)

Now even without that, what do Humans do in d&d till they reach maturity?
To my knowledge there isn't a elementary school for these kids to go too like we have in today's society. So what to they do all day? They are not going to hang out on the streets or play indoors all day long till they reach the age of around 15.....

What they mostly did at those times, as far as I know, was already work in the workplace their parent(s) work or other relatives at a young age, but still they don't gain any special expertise from this, do they?

Also isn't every Human a lvl1 commoner unless otherwise noted, so a 10 year old kid is in fact a lvl1 commoner. But what if he later, when it grows up, becomes a guard and gains a warrior level through training. Does he become a 2nd lvl npc? Nope, he becomes a 1st level warrior, why?

Because d&d had to draw the line somewhere on this matter. Otherwise we had little kids walking around with a bunch of levels, skill expertise and alike that would completely mess up the system in so many different ways that it would require too many rules to balance.

Yes it may not all add up completely mechanic wise for the Elves on this part, but does any race really does make sense in that way on this part?
In my opinion none make 100% perfect sense, in the end this is a fantasy game (not real life) with flaws and it's impossible to justify everything that has been created by humans who are bound to make mistakes and create flaws in their creations.


And of course, there's "so what exactly are these elves doing in the 85 years between becoming an adult and becoming a valid choice for a player character?" problem.

Uuhm.. this one.. is just embarrising easy. Growing up.
Maybe hard to picture for us, but have you ever thought about the fact that dogs for example live shorter? And elephants longer? Now how about that because of this their maturing works different then us?
What you ask here is the same as a dog asking what we humans do in all those years we take to grow up. xD

Other then that, the long life span of Elves is one of the causes their society is different then the Humans or Dwarves. They have a waaay longer life then Humans and have the mindset to take things as they come, no real pressure nor haste in any of their actions (exceptions are there ofc). This affects their daily life, what Humans do in a day, Elves might do in a month, because they have the time to do it easy.

Why do we hate to redo a year in school? Because the longer it takes us, the older we get and the less chance for us to get work and alike. That mindset is barely there with Elves and with that, those 85 years are spend doing... various stuff we might consider trivial or easy to wrap up within a week of excessive learning/working.

Also RoW pretty much states the answer with a sidebar on page 13. I suggest to read that to get a better idea and a pretty clear answer to this whole issue.


Now I can find myself (sorta) in the opinion that mechanical wise the Elves ain't the strongest out there, but there is soo much more to it then that.
You not only get the elf mechanics, but also a character that has a everlasting youthfull look. One that can become over 500 years old. A character that comes from one of the tight settlements where everyone knows each others and is (highly likely) in good terms with each other.

I can go on and on and on and on (like did you knew that Elves are one of the few races that actually brushes their teeth? :smallwink:), but in the end it's all a matter of taste and opinion.



PS, Sorry if I seem to come of offensive or insulting to either of you two, this was in no way my meaning nor intention. Just sorta annoyed that some people see stuff too black and white.
Either way, if I did offend anyone in any way, my sincere apologise for that and I just hope I could shed some light on this... Elf case. :smallamused:

(hope my english in here isn't just outright bad, saw quite a few spelling mistakes after posting, fixed them ofc, but still.....)

[lesser_minion]

How about the fact that maybe some people love their immunity to sleep effects and that racial bonus to enchantment spells and effects?

That's an immunity to the single spell sleep, which everyone gets for free at 5th level.


I could be wrong, but I never saw anywhere the fact that Elves were willing to "slaughter" animals for fashion purposes. Might want to point out where you read such a thing, because I am completely blank on where to find this part.

It's an inference drawn from artwork of elves depicting them wearing leather armour and from the fact that leather armour being useful in the slightest is a complete myth. Sometimes you have to look at what the designers are actually saying, not what they wanted to say.


Do know that the Elven population is nothing like that of a human population, they are way less in numbers. That simply alone brings in the factor of having to make waaaay less equipment for their people.

As for the art of making/forging weapons and armors, that isn't such a art that only the Dwarves can handle. Heck, Humans can make it, why not Elves who live only like.. 10x times as long. There only has to be a few Elves to that know the art to pass it on, because with their lifespan it's easily to pass it on multiple times to the younger generations.


Whether they can 'learn' to make a sword is not the issue. The issue is that being even remotely good at swordsmithing requires constant practice and constant improvement. Elves learning to make swords is not a problem. A few elves becoming pretty damned good at it is still not a problem.

According to RotW, elves never have to actually make swords, but every elf past the age of 25 is capable of forging 'serviceable' swords from raw ore. This is casual swordsmithing and obnoxious superiority at their absolute worst.


Elves adopt a primary style of warfare that relies heavily on stamina and physical endurance, two things that D&D elves do not have in abundance.

Sniping and guerilla warfare simply aren't easy, because both require you to be able to cover vast amounts of ground stealthily. Crawling over six or seven miles is far harder than walking the same distance.


Also RoW pretty much states the answer with a sidebar on page 13. I suggest to read that to get a better idea and a pretty clear answer to this whole issue.

I did. If I hadn't, I'd be commenting on elves considering themselves superior to humans when they aren't necessarily toilet-trained before reaching the age of 20.

[TrueLazy]

Oke here goes, again.. :smallbiggrin:


That's an immunity to the single spell sleep, which everyone gets for free at 5th level.
Immunity to sleep is more then just the spell sleep. If one doesn't even grasp that much, then you should consider that not only can spells be customized, but also new ones created in the d&d world.
I don't have to explain why inventing or alterting spells that cause people to fall asleep are anything but useless.

Further more, with the spell base D&D has, there are most likely already more spells that can cause someone to fall asleep.
Even if that isn't the case, the suggestion spell can infact cause someone to get to sleep if used right and "abused" in various and obvious ways. It's one of the most powerfull spells in the game, so not to be underestimated.

Also there are still poison, supernatural abilities that can cause sleep and the fact that not every person out in the D&D world is 5th level or higher. So having immunity to sleep is in overal not that bad as you think, but with this I come to the point I was really making there..:

It's a opinion, tastes, views, likes, loves, hates etc. etc. that all defines the worth and usefulness of something for a person. In this case, the immunity to sleep, that usefulness seems rather useless to you. But I just listed in a few seconds why I beg the difference, so as I said, a opinion.
(ps, I took the imm to sleep + the save bonus vs echant spells in one whole, because it's typed as one trait in the phb...)


It's an inference drawn from artwork of elves depicting them wearing leather armour and from the fact that leather armour being useful in the slightest is a complete myth. Sometimes you have to look at what the designers are actually saying, not what they wanted to say.
Oke, so you might want to point me where you got this fact from. Because making such a statement does require some sort of backup in my eyes, otherwise we all can claim alot of stuff.
Also, if given me the time, I am pretty sure I can prove that this statement of leather armor being useless is rubbish with a actual source to this claim.

In the end this is still a fantasy game/world. To compare it to real life and base stuff because it's like that in real life is rather strange and unlogic thing to do in my eyes here.
Did you know for example that most helmets that are pictured in with the full plate pictures in the D&D source books pretty much penalty your spot big time? (can't seem to find this anywhere stated in the books.......)
Could list alot more... >.<

"Sometimes you have to look at what the designers are actually saying, not what they wanted to say."
So.. we are going to judge them letter by letter, because... we want to bash them?
I don't know, but... one can't expect their writing to be perfect and cover everything, you know.. the whole "making mistakes is human" thing?
If this all is just about judging that little, small parts (that can easily be overlooked by reading beyond the imprinted letters) then this discussion is rather pointless and meaningless, because it's just about writing skills and the humanfactor in it....

Whether they can 'learn' to make a sword is not the issue. The issue is that being even remotely good at swordsmithing requires constant practice and constant improvement. Elves learning to make swords is not a problem. A few elves becoming pretty damned good at it is still not a problem.

According to RotW, elves never have to actually make swords, but every elf past the age of 25 is capable of forging 'serviceable' swords from raw ore. This is casual swordsmithing and obnoxious superiority at their absolute worst.
Obnoxious superiority? Uuhm, aren't the Elves known for just that kind of persionality? I don't know, but... I do believe that was the case when it came to crafts and alike, the whole big "acting high" thing comes because of something.

Yes by real world standards such a thing is rather ridicules, but once again this is a fantasy world for a reason. There are elements that aren't or/and shouldn't be compared to real life standards, because those difference is pretty much why it's a fantasy world and not a real life world.

Also, craft is a class skill for all and everyone with no limits, making the fact that this is a fantasy world and it differs from the real world all too clear. I do believe that alone should point out the how such a thing is handled in the D&D world.


Sniping and guerilla warfare simply aren't easy, because both require you to be able to cover vast amounts of ground stealthily. Crawling over six or seven miles is far harder than walking the same distance.
Yup, completely true, it isn't easy, but... the -2 con doesn't make them physically uncabable of doing this kind of warfare in any way. In fact, in mechanic ways it means just a -1 on their roll to keep going, while this penalty is indeed something, it's not one to make such warfare a rather weird choice.

Even less when you consider they are at the advantage in their homeland, knowing their way around while the enemy probably doesn't.
Further more I do believe those people in Vietnam had this nifty system to more easily cover distances in their jungle. They weren't all trained or equiped for war and still they won from a wel equiped, trained army.

Ooh and guerrilla warfare means such warfare includes armed civilians at the very least in a decent amount. So I do believe that means the Elves can accomplish the same thing with training and magic.


In the end this mostly consists of putting one's opinion forth in such way, backed up by facts here and there, in the hopes that it will convince the other person to think the same way.
Soo, this is how I see it, wheter one agrees or disagrees with it is their right and pretty much the foundation of a discussion. :smallwink:

[LOTRfan]

Actually, the average elf warrior doesn't even have that -1 penalty to Con-based checks. It just doesn't have the +1 bonus warriors of most other races have.

[Mulletmanalive]

Well, my opinion of what elves [or at least AElfar] should be like is best summarised here.

I'm actually a fan of the high/wild elf split from 4e if i have to have tolkenien elves in a setting at all. The trouble with AElfar implementations is that the source matter has their common soldiers being comparable to the mightiest of heroes in the main narrative; not something that you can easily splice into a game where everyone has to be able to work together.

I mean, heck, when the AElfar actually show up in stories, it tends to be because they've come up against something magical that the main character's odd relationship with magic will allow them to defeat while the AElfar themselves cannot...

[lesser_minion]

In the end this mostly consists of putting one's opinion forth in such way, backed up by facts here and there, in the hopes that it will convince the other person to think the same way.
Soo, this is how I see it, wheter one agrees or disagrees with it is their right and pretty much the foundation of a discussion. :smallwink:

Yes. If you don't see any problem with elves as written, feel free to use them. I disagree, but why should what I think have any effect on your game?

If you would like to debate the relative merits of leather armour, feel free to ask in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192911). You may also want to check out the ARMA website (thearma.org (http://thearma.org)).

The Vietnam war is an interesting subject, but I don't think it's really suitable for bringing up on the boards.

[cfalcon]

Elves refuse to slaughter animals for food because it "disrupts nature", but are perfectly willing to slaughter them for fashion purposes (elves are commonly depicted wearing leather armour of a design that would gain precisely nothing from being made of leather -- in other words, the use of leather serves as a fashion statement and nothing else).

Give them the ability to make the leather last a really long time. They can also get leather from older animals that have died of natural causes, or even younger animals that have been slain by predators, and they have the ability to repair these skins with their apparently awesome leatherworking techniques.

Contrarily, elves don't wear leather much, and the ones with leather classes are the exception, not the rule. Mostly elves wear like, cloth. Or flowers, because elf girls wearing flowers = hot.


Elves try to be self-sufficient, making their own personal weapons and armour. They also happen to favour swords. These are mutually exclusive.

Just ignore this, it's from a stupid book. Alternately, elves get their weapons custom made, swords and all, from the reasonably high numbers of elves that are good at making swords. Implying that every elf is some combination of miner, smelter, and weaponsmith is probably not what was intended, so just apply logic here to what would work. I dunno, I can't think of a single cool fantasy elf that makes his own swords. Maybe you can, but you won't think of, say, four.



Magic of Incarnum would like to inform us that elves make excellent incarnum-wielders. In game, elves take a penalty to the single most critical ability score for incarnum use. And in a stunning violation of WotC's general rule that "there's an elf for that", there is no incarnum elf subrace.

I ban the extraneous elves. Oh, they are THERE, I just have all elves be the dexxy-frail kind.

But in your case, you could just come up with an incarnumriffic elf, or maybe just assume Magic of Incarnum is saying that because elves have forever to figure it out. Elves make excellent EVERYTHING, because they live for so durn long and can level up and such.


Elves adopt a primary style of warfare that relies heavily on stamina and physical endurance, two things that D&D elves do not have in abundance.

I don't really agree with this. We have their favored class as wizard, who, as well all know, have 5 core spells that make beds for them to sleep in, two of those which also port you to another dimension, and one of which summons ghostly servants in sexy livery to offer you any sort of pleasure you might desire. The fact that the noncastery elves hide in trees and shoot arrows in your butt doesn't seem to make the whole race a bunch of marathon runners.


he famous "diverse range of different studies" that receives no attention whatsoever anywhere within the rules.

The martial proficiencies are this. However, they should probably get a couple knowledge ranks or something as well. I agree that this should be addressed. This is about the only point I agree with.


And of course, there's "so what exactly are these elves doing in the 85 years between becoming an adult and becoming a valid choice for a player character?" problem.

Other elfteens.

[neoseph7]

Elves try to be self-sufficient, making their own personal weapons and armour. They also happen to favour swords. These are mutually exclusive.

And of course, there's "so what exactly are these elves doing in the 85 years between becoming an adult and becoming a valid choice for a player character?" problem.

They're probably spending that 85 years trying to make a sword.

Half of the idea behind the elf's long lifespan is that they don't need to make a sword immediately. When you take your sweet time, there are untold ways they can produce weapons that are fantastic and unique beyond how humans make them (not that you should solve game problems with "It's magic!", but that is kinda a thing with elves).

The 3.x rules and beyond should not be taken too seriously. A lot of simplifications to real world weapons and equipment are taken. This is because the first thing to consider when making a game is if it's fun, not if it's anachronistically acurate. That said, you as can always tweak the game to have more combat specific niches with which to populate using 17 different types bows.

[Ajadea]

Elves refuse to slaughter animals for food because it "disrupts nature", but are perfectly willing to slaughter them for fashion purposes (elves are commonly depicted wearing leather armour of a design that would gain precisely nothing from being made of leather -- in other words, the use of leather serves as a fashion statement and nothing else).

And the female duskblade and knight in PHBII both have armor that would look better and and work better without those godsawful breast bumps. Artist's fail doesn't mean elves are bad. It just means artists have failed.

And where's the first statement come from? Idiots? They have canines. They evolved to eat meat. It's their place on the freaking food chain, above bears, equivalent to humans, and below dragons.

Elves try to be self-sufficient, making their own personal weapons and armour. They also happen to favour swords. These are mutually exclusive.

Try being the operative word. DC 15: You need a dedicated craftself to make it. And I'd imagine that while elves might like swords, and train their kids in it perhaps for sentimental reasons, they'd use more bows, because an elf in melee is a dead elf.

Magic of Incarnum would like to inform us that elves make excellent incarnum-wielders. In game, elves take a penalty to the single most critical ability score for incarnum use. And in a stunning violation of WotC's general rule that "there's an elf for that", there is no incarnum elf subrace.

Yay! They actually dropped the "there's an elf for that"!

More seriously, something as long-lived as an elf, they're going to be able to get better at things than most humans ever will. You know how fast your elven adventurer levels up over the course of a campaign?

And they can keep doing the adventuring shtick a lot longer than a human can. And if I remember correctly, going adventuring isn't out of the ordinary for an elf. Which means that the mean level for an elf could easily be around 5 and you'd better believe that the 5th level incarnate is stronger than the 1st level one.

Elves adopt a primary style of warfare that relies heavily on stamina and physical endurance, two things that D&D elves do not have in abundance.

One thing, technically. Constitution.

And considering their favored class is wizard, it seems like their 'favored style of combat' is read for an hour, cast spells for a minute, and go back to reading.

The famous "diverse range of different studies" that receives no attention whatsoever anywhere within the rules.

I'l give you that one too.

And of course, there's "so what exactly are these elves doing in the 85 years between becoming an adult and becoming a valid choice for a player character?" problem.

Becoming proficient with four different martial weapons. Fighting off illnesses. Learning elven culture, which I've always fluffed as, more or less, a social balancing act involving dancing on a spiderweb of glass with knives to either side. Having kids and raising them before going out to adventure and risk death.

This can be partially repaired with a small bit of age changing: All elves have starting ages at 110, no matter their profession. So it throws their training time back into those 85 years.

[peterpaulrubens]

I've actually thought that the elven predisposition for arcane magic seemed a little misplaced. Cultures that live a loooooooong time seem like they'd be more wise, more in tune with nature, and generally more spiritual than other cultures. That screams divine magic to me.

Whereas, short-lived humans are the ones who go for the right-now power of arcane magic.

I'm thinking Yoda vs. Darth Vader here. Yoda's gonna live 800 years and can afford the patience to learn to be the supreme holy zen-like Jedi master. Vader's got 30 years, TOPS, where he's in prime fighting form, and he goes for the quick easy power of the Dark Side.

If I was going to overhaul both fluff and crunch of elves, I'd start with making the people who were going to live for centuries be the wise ones in terms of fluff, and then I'd make the crunch match that. Favored class for elves would be cleric or druid, not wizard. And I'd make their cultural fluff totally frown on arcane magic.

[lesser_minion]

I have a couple of ideas for how to actually alter the elf -- I'm still thinking through ideas, but this might make for a start.

Special abilities aren't easy to think up at the best of times. Things I've considered include:

Letting elves substitute a level + intelligence modifier check for certain skills.
Giving elves some unique magical power, such as the ability to invest numen into objects or places.


Equipment:

Obviously, it's not the fault of the elves that there are problems with D&D's equipment system. However, if I'm going to be re-writing elves anyway, this is a good opportunity to explore what sort of weapons and armour they use, and how they differ from the weapons and armour used by other cultures.

Stats:

None. I'm trying not to shoehorn elves into a particular set of choices.

Special Abilities:

Familiarity with elven cultural weapons and tools. Every race will get this, so nothing to see here. I'm thinking of adding repeating crossbows to the list of cultural weapons, so that there's at least an alternative to having widespread use of longbows.

Starting Ages:

Elves mature at around 22, and become playable at 30. They don't use the normal ageing rules.

Height/Weight:

As before.

Default fluff:

The basic idea here is, as already mentioned, to have elves who are 'different', not 'superior'. While both humans and elves like music, they use different instruments, for example.

The fastest way to irritate someone is to arbitrarily declare everything elvish to be 'elegant' or 'beautiful' and never explain what these things actually look like. I intend to try and avoid this.

[Solaris]

Yup, completely true, it isn't easy, but... the -2 con doesn't make them physically uncabable of doing this kind of warfare in any way. In fact, in mechanic ways it means just a -1 on their roll to keep going, while this penalty is indeed something, it's not one to make such warfare a rather weird choice.
That penalty to CON pretty much means they don't do guerrilla because they're good at it, they do guerrilla because they don't have any other choice. An elf in a melee against an orc will lose, all other things equal. I'd put money on a dwarf beating an elf, and I think the odds are in the human's favor if he caught an elf in melee, too. Granted, most of those would lose to an orc of equal skill (dwarf might give him a run for his money, though).

Allow me to reiterate: All warfare is strenuous. When given the options out of premodern combat styles, guerrilla warfare is actually one of the least strenuous when conducted properly. If you're taking off running for more than a minute or five, you're doing it wrong. You should be setting traps, setting ambushes, using fire arrows for night raids, that sort of thing. Running is still less strenuous than standing there and actively fighting an opponent.


Even less when you consider they are at the advantage in their homeland, knowing their way around while the enemy probably doesn't.
Further more I do believe those people in Vietnam had this nifty system to more easily cover distances in their jungle. They weren't all trained or equiped for war and still they won from a wel equiped, trained army.
Forum rules prohibit discussion here, but the tl;dr version is that what you learned in school was grossly oversimplified to the point of being wrong.

When you do a guerrilla war you're not trying to beat the enemy's army, you're trying to beat his will. Elves engaged in warfare would not be able to fight the way the enemy likes, if for no other reason than because the elven population is lower than everyone else's. They would pretty much be forced to resort to sabotage and assassination in order to effect a defeat of an invasion force.

The Viet Cong and NVA used two things to move their materiel: Tunnels and politics. We weren't allowed to bomb the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos and Cambodia, which seriously hampered the war effort. (Note: I'm discussing tactics, we're not going to talk about the who's or why's of any of this on the forum) Elves don't seem particularly disposed towards tunnels (though the hidden paths at night thing might suit 'em if they aren't facing darkvision-capable foes or someone whose diviners can beat their wards), and politics is a very setting-specific thing. I'd draw more from their traps and psychological warfare than anything else, really.

You'd want to take more of a look at the tactics of our native tribes and colonial rebels to get a better idea of how to properly conduct guerrilla war. It, too, was a war of attrition meant to break the enemy's will. The technology level was closer to that assumed in a D&D setting, which makes it a better example. Of particular note are Roger's Rangers Rules (http://www.military-info.com/freebies/roger.htm). Elves are pretty well-built for most of those, particularly the attacking at dawn and dusk (and hey, they don't need much downtime, which makes 'em real good for night ops).


Ooh and guerrilla warfare means such warfare includes armed civilians at the very least in a decent amount. So I do believe that means the Elves can accomplish the same thing with training and magic.
Yes. Well, technically what you're talking about is an insurgency, but I'm the only one in this discussion (to my knowledge, anyhow) who's familiar enough to tell the difference. Most insurgencies are guerrilla in nature, but not all guerrilla fighters are insurgents. If they're armed civilians, then it's an insurgency. If they're militia or actual military, then it's just guerrilla.

The important difference is that a professional guerrilla force is a serious threat, while insurgents are merely a hazard to be dealt with. Real-world experience has indicated that civilian combatants do very poorly against professional military combatants. I don't think I can emphasize enough how badly they do, even in asymmetrical warfare. The casualty rates are tremendously skewed in favor of the professional military. Taking a certain brushfire engagement in a certain flat, hot, dry place, it's something like 15-20 civilian combatants dead for every 1 (one) professional military combatant killed. As much as popular culture likes the underdog and the heroic image of the everyman hero standing up against the evil invaders, the realistic result is the evil invaders just have another skull to stick on a pike.
I expect the fantasy milieu to provide very little difference, even accounting for the disproportionate number of adventurers. If elves were to engage in warfare with the paradigm, they'd be extinct. It only works against a foe who thinks "Hey, we shouldn't kill the civilians because that would be wrong", which is a distinctly modern phenomenon. If you're facing off against an LG (or at least LN whose culture values moral good) opponent? Sure, absolutely. If you're facing off against an opponent who doesn't at all value the lives of your civilians? Absolutely not.

[Ajadea]

Why don't we start with this: What is an elf?


If it's a frail creature, especially if the population is low, it fights guerilla style, because it is too risky to fight toe-to-toe with more enduring, stronger, beings. Example Crunch: Weapon familiarity with ranged weapons, +2 Dex, -2 Con, bonus to Intimidate, bonus to stealth/mobility skills, bonus to perception skills
If it's a long-lived creature, especially it it ages notably slower, then we get more patient elves, with a wide range of skills. Example Crunch: Can use any skill untrained, +2 bonus on Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge, Profession, and Spellcraft checks, Lore 1/day as a racial feature
If elves are innately magical, they might be a little insane or otherwise disconnected from reality. Example Crunch: -2 Wisdom. Pick 3 cantrips from the following list [dancing lights, mage hand, ghost sound, prestidigitation, lullaby, know direction, arcane mark], you can use them a total of 1+Cha Mod/day (min. 1) as a spell-like ability (CL 1, saves are Cha-based). Pick one spell combo from the following list (faerie fire + color spray , magic weapon + true strike, speak with animals + detect animals and plants, longstrider + pass without trace, charm person + cause fear), you may use each spell in that combo 1/day (CL = HD/2, saves are Cha-based)

[lesser_minion]

Why don't we start with this: What is an elf?


If it's a frail creature, especially if the population is low, it fights guerilla style, because it is too risky to fight toe-to-toe with more enduring, stronger, beings. Example Crunch: Weapon familiarity with ranged weapons, +2 Dex, -2 Con, bonus to Intimidate, bonus to stealth/mobility skills, bonus to perception skills

I'm planning to move away from frail elves. It's an ancient cliché, and not one that I think really follows from their depictions in myth and pre-D&D fantasy. And in reality, prior depictions of elves not only imply that they're tougher than humans, but that that's also almost entirely fundamental.


If it's a long-lived creature, especially it it ages notably slower, then we get more patient elves, with a wide range of skills. Example Crunch: Can use any skill untrained, +2 bonus on Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge, Profession, and Spellcraft checks, Lore 1/day as a racial feature

Possibly. Seems a bit weak -- half of that you're barely going to notice, and I'm not sure how often you're going to remember a free bardic knowledge check.


If elves are innately magical, they might be a little insane or otherwise disconnected from reality. Example Crunch: -2 Wisdom. Pick 3 cantrips from the following list [dancing lights, mage hand, ghost sound, prestidigitation, lullaby, know direction, arcane mark], you can use them a total of 1+Cha Mod/day (min. 1) as a spell-like ability (CL 1, saves are Cha-based). Pick one spell combo from the following list (faerie fire + color spray , magic weapon + true strike, speak with animals + detect animals and plants, longstrider + pass without trace, charm person + cause fear), you may use each spell in that combo 1/day (CL = HD/2, saves are Cha-based)


Hmm. Not really unique, but not bad either.

The goal here is for elves to get treatment beyond a stat block -- after all, there is a fair bit of pre-existing material that playing a revised elf forces you to eschew. You should get something interesting in exchange.


The 3.x rules and beyond should not be taken too seriously. A lot of simplifications to real world weapons and equipment are taken. This is because the first thing to consider when making a game is if it's fun, not if it's anachronistically acurate. That said, you as can always tweak the game to have more combat specific niches with which to populate using 17 different types bows.

Simplification is the operative word here. Not having enough detail is not a problem (I didn't say it was). Being wrong can be. It's better, for example, to assume that all of the combatants in a fight are "somewhere in the same room, trying to do xyzzy" than it is to try and implement any sort of concrete positioning, because any semi-competent combatant should be in constant motion (http://www.thearma.org/essays/StandingStill.html). It's nigh impossible to model that with any level of accuracy, nor does it add anything to try.

[Mayhem]

I can't find anything in RoW that say all elves learn how to make swords, so I still don't get that one. But for argument's sake I'll just focus on your goals rather than reasons.

Ajadea's last post:

•Example Crunch: Weapon familiarity with ranged weapons, +2 Dex, -2 Con, bonus to Intimidate, bonus to stealth/mobility skills, bonus to perception skills
•Example Crunch: Can use any skill untrained, +2 bonus on Craft, Decipher Script, Knowledge, Profession, and Spellcraft checks, Lore 1/day as a racial feature
•Example Crunch: -2 Wisdom. Pick 3 cantrips from the following list [dancing lights, mage hand, ghost sound, prestidigitation, lullaby, know direction, arcane mark], you can use them a total of 1+Cha Mod/day (min. 1) as a spell-like ability (CL 1, saves are Cha-based). Pick one spell combo from the following list (faerie fire + color spray , magic weapon + true strike, speak with animals + detect animals and plants, longstrider + pass without trace, charm person + cause fear), you may use each spell in that combo 1/day (CL = HD/2, saves are Cha-based)
I like how you've given them a wisdom penalty, that certainly fits with the haughty senior citizen archetype they have going on. You've put too many spells to choose from though, if I wasn't so tired I'd have some suggestions on what to cut.

Here's my take on what you said combined with what lesser_minion wants, and a dash of my own:

• Ability modifiers: +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Str, -2 Wis. Elves are fast and tough, but not as strong as humans and their long lives leavesthem disconnected from reality.
•Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
• Low-Light Vision
• Perceptive: +2 bonus to spot, listen, and search checks.
• Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive Proficiency feats for longbow (including composite longbow), shortbow (including composite shortbow), light crossbow, and heavy crossbow as bonus feats.
• Weapon familiarity: Treat all elf weapons and repeating crossbows as martial weapons.
• Lore: An elf may make a special lore check with a bonus equal to his class levels + his Intelligence modifier to see whether he knows some relevant information about local customs, legendary items, or noteworthy places. A successful lore check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. An elf may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random. In addition an elf can use any skill untrained, and they always have craft, knowledge, perform, and profession as class skills.
• Skilled: 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level.
•Cantrips: Gain the following spell-like abilities 3/day; prestidigitation, lullaby, know direction, arcane mark. CL 1, saves are Cha-based.
Pick one of the following as a spell-like ability; true strike, speak with animals, detect animals and plants, pass without trace. You may use this 1/day (Caster level = HD/2, saves are Cha-based).

I'm not happy with lore, it's still too bard-ish.

[Ajadea]

So I guess you're going to have magic elves then? Personally, I would take that in a almost fair-folk-esque direction. Give them alien mindsets and such, you know?

Crunch is easier to mess with right now, so here's a new attempt at it, built off Mayhem's elves.

The basic fluff would be that they are long-lived, take a long time to mature, and are fundamentally disconnected from both the mortal mindset and the fae mindset. They also move away from the 'elves in the woods' stereotype, getting more malevolent and obviously arcane abilities.


• Ability modifiers: +2 Dex, -2 Wis. Elves are graceful and nimble, but their minds can fail to grasp reality or even common sense.
• Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
• -2 penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive checks: Elves are frequently unable to understand others.
• Low-Light Vision
• Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive Proficiency feats for longbow (including composite longbow), shortbow (including composite shortbow), light crossbow, and heavy crossbow as bonus feats.
• Weapon Familiarity: Treat all elf weapons and repeating crossbows as martial weapons.
• Long Lived: Elves have a +2 racial bonus on all Knowledge checks, due to their extensive life experience. They may use any skill untrained, and they always have Craft, Knowledge, Perform, and Profession as class skills.
•Elven Magic: Elves may use the following spell-like abilities 3/day each; prestidigitation, lullaby, dancing lights, arcane mark. CL 1, save DCs are Cha-based. These are your least SLAs.

Pick one of the following spells; faerie fire, magic weapon, chill touch, charm person, pass without trace. This is your lesser SLA. You may use this spell as a Spell-Like Ability 1/day (Caster level = HD/2, saves are Cha-based).


And then two feats to go with it:

Fae Magic [General]
Prerequisites: Elf, Cha 13+, character level 3
Benefit: You gain access to another, more powerful Spell-like ability. known as a Greater SLA, based on the one you already have.

Faerie Fire: Color Spray
Magic Weapon: True Strike
Chill Touch: Touch of Idiocy
Charm Person: Hideous Laughter
Pass Without Trace: Invisibility

You may use this spell-like ability any time you could use the previous spell-like ability.

You gain an additional use of your greater spell-like ability.
Normal: You do not have access to the Greater elven spell-like abilities.

Seelie Magic [General]
Prerequisites: Elf, Cha 15+, Fae Magic, character level 9
Benefit: You gain access to another, more powerful Spell-like ability. known as a Seelie SLA, based on the one you originally selected.

Faerie Fire: Rainbow Pattern
Magic Weapon: Wraithstrike (CAdv)
Chill Touch: Bestow Curse
Charm Person: Suggestion
Pass Without Trace: Freedom of Movement

You may use this spell-like ability any time you could use the previous spell-like ability.

You gain an additional use of your greater spell-like ability.
Normal: You do not have access to the Seelie spell-like abilities.

[lesser_minion]

Well, I've already said that I'd rather not give elves any ability score modifiers at all.

I think the idea that elves have a lighter build than humans might be better reflected as a racial trait (thanks are due to Ashtagon here).

Slender: Elves are typically smaller and lighter of build than humans. An elf character suffers a -2 penalty to all grapple checks and on all checks made to attempt or resist overruns, trips, bull rushes, disarm attempts, and sunder attacks. In addition, she determines her carrying capacity as if she were one size category smaller than normal.

Comments and more material will follow when it isn't 1 o'clock in the morning.

Lore-wise, I think I'm going to have to do some conlanging.

[Morph Bark]

Well, I've already said that I'd rather not give elves any ability score modifiers at all.

I think the idea that elves have a lighter build than humans might be better reflected as a racial trait (thanks are due to Ashtagon here).

Slender: Elves are typically smaller and lighter of build than humans. An elf character suffers a -2 penalty to all grapple checks and on all checks made to attempt or resist overruns, trips, bull rushes, disarm attempts, and sunder attacks. In addition, she determines her carrying capacity as if she were one size category smaller than normal.

This is kind of a weird thing to throw in, as other races with a slender or slight build get bonuses from it.

[lesser_minion]

This is kind of a weird thing to throw in, as other races with a slender or slight build get bonuses from it.

Given that slight build is an advantage and I wanted a drawback, why do you think I ignored it?

[Ashtagon]

Before I'd even read Races of the Kobold, I had home-ruled my own slight build racial feature that gave elves a lesser carrying capacity as if a size class smaller. Quite honestly, I don't see why slight build should be an advantage. As the core rules read, there is no functional difference between a medium creature with slight build and a small creature with powerful build. And given that slight is a semantic opposite of powerful, which makes sense as a bonus, it ought be be logical for slight build to be a disadvantage.

I'm not so sure about the -2 on the combat manoeuvre checks though. That seems to be punishing something that seldom gets used much anyway.

[lesser_minion]

I'm not so sure about the -2 on the combat manoeuvre checks though. That seems to be punishing something that seldom gets used much anyway.

Being a size category smaller gives you -4 to all of those checks -- basically, you make them as if you were half a cat smaller than you actually are. It wouldn't work for Pathfinder, but that's a separate issue.

I'm considering messing around with weapon use as well, but that will have to wait until I've figured out what being half a cat smaller should entail.

[Morph Bark]

Being a size category smaller gives you -4 to all of those checks -- basically, you make them as if you were half a cat smaller than you actually are. It wouldn't work for Pathfinder, but that's a separate issue.

If we take a Small character with Powerful Build and a Medium with Slight Build to be mechanically practically the same, a lower carrying capacity for slender elves makes sense indeed, but a -4 to these maneuvers doesn't. You could perhaps give them a penalty to Grapple, Bull Rush and Sunder (their Improved feats are keyed off Power Attack) though, as elves are more likely to be focused on Combat Expertise-based maneuvers.

Alternatively, give them a free kind of Weapon Finesse, but make their off-hand weapon receive no Str bonus to damage, their main hand receive half and two-handing a weapon recieve only x1 the Str bonus.

[lesser_minion]

If we take a Small character with Powerful Build and a Medium with Slight Build to be mechanically practically the same, a lower carrying capacity for slender elves makes sense indeed, but a -4 to these maneuvers doesn't.

I'm not sure how this follows. Slight build doesn't really have much point, because it's essentially no different to being one size category smaller but with powerful build. Moreover, it amounts to "your slight build makes you better off in many ways", whereas I'm going for "an elf's slender build causes her difficulties in certain aspects of combat".

An elf isn't a powerfully built small character, but she is about 40 lb lighter than most other medium creatures, and that should really make a difference to how she responds when someone ploughs directly into her at a dead run.

[Ashtagon]

Being a size category smaller gives you -4 to all of those checks -- basically, you make them as if you were half a cat smaller than you actually are. It wouldn't work for Pathfinder, but that's a separate issue.

ok, phrased like that, it makes sense to give a -2 penalty for slender build races. Might be worth re-reading the rules though. I'm not sure size class counts for every one of the combat manoeuvres. It certainly doesn't for sunder, as a random example.

[lesser_minion]

Actually, it does, although the rules phrase it weirdly:


The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category.

It probably shouldn't, and I'm almost certain that it didn't in 3.0, but no matter what I think about the d20 rules, they are what I'm writing content to match. If D&D thinks it's easier to hit a dagger while wielding a cathedral as an improvised weapon than while wielding a longsword, I'm not going to argue. Not here, anyway.

EDIT: This doesn't use the magic idea too much, but how's this?
[hr]
Elven racial traits:

Peerless vision. An elf's eyes are able to perceive certain things that other creatures can not. This confers several benefits:
When attempting a spot, search, or survival check, an elf rolls twice and uses the better result.
On seeing the image presented by any figment or glamer effect, an elf is immediately entitled to a will save to disbelieve it. This even entitles the elf to saving throws to disbelieve certain illusions that do not ordinarily allow such a save, such as Mirror Image. This saving throw is considered an additional save -- an elf who fails the save granted by this ability may try again if she is given an additional reason to believe that it is unreal.
An elf with the Track feat retains the ability to track druids and other creatures with a class feature or special ability that renders them untraceable.
Wetland adaptation. Elves are relatively well-adapted to the wetlands, which many believe to have been the birthplace of their species. Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poisons, diseases, and harmful odours, a +4 racial bonus on move silently checks, and a +4 bonus to all survival checks made in marshy terrain.
Slender. Elves are typically significantly smaller and less heavily built than humans. An elf has the carrying capacity of a creature one size category smaller than normal. In addition, she suffers a -2 penalty to all grapple checks, and to all checks made to attempt or resist a disarm, sunder, overrun, trip, or bull rush.


This makes elves a lot more flexible -- almost anyone can benefit from the ability to see through illusions. It's also a lot more distinctive than low-light vision, which is so common in vanilla that it would be easier to give humans the trait "poor night vision".

Weapon familiarity is omitted, since I'm assuming that every race has its own unique equipment list.

Sleep immunity is something I'm considering -- trance will probably be kept, but I don't agree with the idea that sleep being unnatural for elves makes it completely impossible to make an elf fall asleep by magic. And sleep probably won't be unnatural to these elves anyway.

There is more I'd like to add -- one thing I'm considering is this pair of supernatural traits to play up the 'fey heritage' idea:

Numen. Elves have the ability to invest a small portion of supernatural power into weapons and armour, making them lighter and more durable. When wielded by an elf, elf-made weapons and armour gain superior characteristics as a supernatural ability. An elf's natural and manufactured weapons are treated as cold iron weapons for the purposes of defeating damage reduction.
Vulnerability to Iron. An elf is sickened by pain while touching an iron object, wielding an iron weapon, or wearing armour or clothing that includes iron as part of its construction. For these purposes, 'iron' includes cold iron, steel, adamantine, and alchemical silver.

Fluff-wise, moving elves into the swamps goes a little way towards making their lifestyle somewhat less idyllic (although not being stupid, many elves have presumably moved out of the swamps, leaving behind various members of clergy who continue to tend to the sacred sites located there). Elves do farm, but since many swamps have religious or historical significance to them, they tend to stick to plains and clear forests.

If elves refer to anything using the phrase "Guardian of Nature", it will be a network of orbiting ion cannon battle stations.