Froghemoth CR?

[Tvtyrant]

My attempt at updating the Froghemoth seems to have been going okay, but I can't seem to puzzle out its CR. Would someone like to give me a guess at it?

Froghemoth
Size/Type: Huge Aberration (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 14d8+15 (71)
Initiative: +3
Movement: 20 ft. (4 squares) Swim 30ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+30
Attack: Tentacle +15 melee (1d6+8)
Full Attack: tentacles +15 melee (1d6+8) and Tongue +13 touch
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft. (30 ft. with tentacle, 25 ft. tongue)
Special Attacks: Improved Grab, Swallow Whole, Constrict (1d6+8),
Special Qualities: resistance to fire 10, immunity to electricity, Low Light Vision
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +11
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 3
Skills: Spot 10, Swim 8
Feats: Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Awesome Blow, multiattack
Environmental: Tropical Swamp
Organization: Solitary
Advancement: 15-18 HD (Huge); 19-36 HD (Gargantuan)
LA:-

An opponent can attack a Froghemoth’s tentacles with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A Froghemoth’s tentacles have 10 hit points each. If a Froghemoth is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one ofFroghemoth’s tentacles deals 5 points of damage to the creature. A Froghemoth usually withdraws from combat if it loses 2 tentacles. The creature regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days.
Constrict (Ex)
A Froghemoth deals 1d6+8 points of damage with a successful grapple check on a tentacle.
Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a Froghemoth must hit an opponent of any size with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. *A Froghemoth has a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.
Improved Grab (Ex)
To use this ability, a Frogehmoth must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its tongue attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Swallow Whole (Ex)
A Froghemoth can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes 2d8+8 points of bludgeoning damage and 8 points of acid damage per round from the Froghemoth’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.
A Huge Froghemoth’s gizzard can hold 2 Medium, 8 Small, 32 Tiny, or 128 Diminutive or smaller opponents.
Skills
A Froghemoth has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

[cfalcon]

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/froghemoth.html

This is mostly compatible! Unless it is what you are trying to convert *from*...

[Debihuman]

The Froghemoth was written up in the Tome of Horrors and your version is slightly weaker so I'd peg it at CR 12.

I strongly recommend anyone who plays D&D 3.X to get a copy. The Tome of Horrors revised edition for 3.5 is only available as a pdf and you can buy it cheaply (or sometimes for free so check sales) from places like rpgnow.com or paizo.com.

Over the years, Paizo products cited to Tome of Horrors frequently until the Pathfinder rules were created. The monsters from ToH are all open content so they were updated too. Originally, WotC wasn't going to update all their monsters but fans were clamoring for them and so WotC licensed them to Sword and Sorcery (an imprint of White Wolf).

Here is the Froghemoth from ToH revised for comparison

FROGHEMOTH
Huge Aberration
Hit Dice: 16d8+83 (155 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+24
Attack: Tentacle +14 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: 4 tentacles +14 melee (1d6+4) and tongue +12 melee (1d6+2) and bite +12 melee (4d6+2)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft. (20 ft. with tongue)
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., resistance to fire 10, vulnerability to electricity
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +11
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 11
Skills: Hide +2*, Listen +9, Spot +9, Swim +17
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Multiattack, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Hide), Toughness
Environment: Temperate marsh
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 13
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 17-30 HD (Huge); 31-48 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —

This gigantic creature resembles a giant frog with 4 large tentacles in place of its front legs. A single eyestalk juts from the top of its head. Its underbelly is yellow, its body is green, and its tentacles and legs are mottled green.

The froghemoth is a weird aberration that swells in marshes and swamps. Its tongue is 10 feet long and it uses it to capture its prey. The froghemoth is a carnivore and feeds on various swamp-dwellers.

Combat

The froghemoth attacks using its tentacles and tongue to grab opponents. Grabbed opponents are shoved into the froghemoth’s mouth.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a froghemoth must hit with its tongue attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to swallow the foe the following round.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A froghemoth can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of two or more sizes smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 2d8+4 points of crushing damage plus 8 points of acid damage per round from the froghemoth’s digestive juices. A swallowed creature can climb out of the froghemoth’s stomach with a successful grapple check. This returns it to the froghemoth’s mouth, where another successful grapple check is needed to get free. A swallowed creature can also cut its way out using a light piercing or slashing weapon
to deal 20 points of damage to the froghemoth’s stomach (AC 13). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent
must cut its own way out.

A Huge froghemoth’s stomach can hold 1 Medium, 2 Small, 8 Tiny, 32 Diminutive, or 128 Fine opponents.

Vulnerability to Electricity (Ex): The froghemoth takes no damage from electricity-based spells and effects, but is instead slowed for one round.

Skills: A froghemoth has a +4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks.
*Due to its coloration, a froghemoth has a +4 bonus on Hide checks in its natural environment.

A froghemoth has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action
while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Debby

[Tvtyrant]

Weird, my AD&D conversion is almost identical to both of those. Though I don't understand why they gave it 16 hit dice since the conversion book said keep it the same and it had 14. I also gave swallow whole to the tongue and constrict to the tentacles as different abilities, but that is probably because I envision it as a specifically ambush predator that grapples as many members of the party as it can on the first round and then running into the water to drown them.

CR 12 seems reasonable to me!

[Debihuman]

The original Froghemoth from Expedition to the Barrier Peaks had 16 HD.

[Tvtyrant]

The original Froghemoth from Expedition to the Barrier Peaks had 16 HD.

Huh, well it had 14 in the AD&D MMII. 16 would jive with its huge size better, but I think it boosts its CR past its interest zone. Having it eat someone and jump back in the water is way cooler then just fighting, but not possible if the party is going to be winning grapple checks.

[Debihuman]

Huh, well it had 14 in the AD&D MMII. 16 would jive with its huge size better, but I think it boosts its CR past its interest zone. Having it eat someone and jump back in the water is way cooler then just fighting, but not possible if the party is going to be winning grapple checks.

WotC's books always had a lot of mistakes. Judging from the ToH and Enworld's conversions, it appears the 14 number is less desirable. See here: http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/pdf/aberration/froghemoth.pdf

Are you looking for a specific CR? Also, I'm seeing a few mistakes on your statblock

Hit Dice: 14d8+14 (50 hp) Con bonus modifier applies to all HD so it has 50 hit points with a Con of 13. Did you change something?


Debby

[Cidolfas]

It may be reasonably impressive due to its size, but in the end this creature can be kited by any character capable of flight. Its hit points and Strength, which are normally the biggest assets of such a creature, are relatively lacking. It has no ranged capabilities whatsoever, and is essentially only useful if used to attack in a confined area a la a closet troll (which doesn't appear to be the intent) where it can use its grappling.

As a result, I wouldn't peg this anywhere higher than CR 10, which is being extremely generous. Anyone who can afford boots of flight can beat this guy with ease. CR 5 wouldn't be terribly out of the question; at least then its stats would be relatively more impressive. 7 to 8 is about right in my opinion.

[Tvtyrant]

WotC's books always had a lot of mistakes. Judging from the ToH and Enworld's conversions, it appears the 14 number is less desirable. See here: http://creaturecatalog.enworld.org/converted/pdf/aberration/froghemoth.pdf

Are you looking for a specific CR? Also, I'm seeing a few mistakes on your statblock

Hit Dice: 14d8+14 (50 hp) Con bonus modifier applies to all HD so it has 50 hit points with a Con of 13. Did you change something?


Debby

14x4=56. If you add the 14 from the 1 point of con you get 70. The additional one was me not thinking as I type it up, but I don't see where you got 50?

And it is also a water creature, so flying is going to do anything at all unless it already came after you. The point of the creature is to have it charge out of the water, grab someone, and run with them. I think it should be at least CR 10, but I could be wrong.

[Debihuman]

14x4=56. If you add the 14 from the 1 point of con you get 70. The additional one was me not thinking as I type it up, but I don't see where you got 50?

And it is also a water creature, so flying is going to do anything at all unless it already came after you. The point of the creature is to have it charge out of the water, grab someone, and run with them. I think it should be at least CR 10, but I could be wrong.

The average hit points of a d8 is 4.5 so we're both wrong. I'm not sure where my math error occurred so I've now checked it with a calculator. Apparently I was channeling Barbie[tm] "Math is hard." Initially, I may have hit the 5 when I meant the 7. In any case here's me with the corrections.

Hit Dice: 14d8+14 (77 hp)

14x4.5= 63 +14 = 77 (you don't drop the .5 until after the calculations are finished).

Debby

[GhostwheelZ]

I'd say CR 6 to 8, probably 7; with its low land speed, enemies with ranged capabilities will be able to kite it, and while it can neuter one foe by grappling it (as long as its target isn't a grappler himself), it'll get shanked to death in a round or two by the PC's party members. The CR comes primarily from its high grapple mod, but the damage is so puny that it's not much of an actual threat to most enemies.