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View Full Version : The Dungeon Seed (3.5 base class, unusual concepts)



ClockworkCrow
2011-05-01, 04:44 PM
Under Construction! Please provide critique regardless if you can :smallsmile:

Dungeonseed

"In the depths of every heart, there is a tomb and a dungeon..."
- Nathaniel Hawthorne

Adventurers come and go. They plunder ancient ruins, clearing hordes of monsters and less civilized races from these dark places. They take treasures and magic from their resting places and bring them back to the light of day.

But sometimes, it's the adventurers themselves who are prey. Lured by the promise of treasure and glory, only to die at the whirring blades of an unseen trap or in the web of a dozen giant spiders. Sometimes the dungeons hunt them.

They are rare, with only a handful on any given plane, but from time to time these sentient structures send out their progeny. They release seeds, ensconced in humanoid hosts, to grow and reap the spoils of a world before sending out their own offspring.

These are dungeonseeds.

Cocooned in the necessary materials to survive and grow for a short time, the seeds are launched through planar rifts by their parent dungeons. When they land, they undergo a violent metamorphosis, becoming less of the being they were and transforming into an adolescent dungeon.


Game Rule Information -
Dungeon Seeds have the following game statistics.
Abilities - Either Constitution or Charisma is most important for the Dungeon Seed, though other abilities will provide benefits in their own ways. Ideally, the Dungeon Seed will shape itself to make the best use of the abilities that it has.
Alignment - Any
Hit Die - D12
Starting Gold 10d4 x10gp worth of starting equipment

Class Skills -
The following are class skills for the Dungeon Seed:

Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Disable Device (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) (Int), Knowledge (Dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Local) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Knowledge (The Planes) (Int), Listen (Wis),Open Lock (Dex), Sense Motive (Cha), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha)

Skill Points at First Level: (4 + Int Modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: (4 + Int Modifier)

{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Ambient Sorceries

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Dungeonform, Shape Features, Shape Minions|0

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Ambient Sorceries|1

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3|Thick Walls|1

4th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Something!|2

5th|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4|Least Molting|2

6th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+5|Class Ability|3

7th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Class Ability|3

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+2|
+6|Shape Rooms|4

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+3|
+6|Shape Greater Minions|4

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+3|
+7|Lesser Molting|5

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+3|
+7|Class Ability|5

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8|Minor Planar Trait|6

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+8|Class Ability|6

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+4|
+9|Class Ability|7

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+9|Greater Molting|7

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10|Class Ability|8

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10|Class Ability|8

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+11|Class Ability|9

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Class Ability|9

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Genesis, Major Planar Trait|10[/table]

Dungeonform -

When the dungeonseed completes its first molting, its form will have changed drastically. It is an amorphous mass, quickly sculpted by the burgeoning mind of the seed. The shape that the seed takes depends largely on the previous influences of the host and the location that it comes to rest in, and as such can vary widely between individual seeds. Upon taking the first level of this class, the dungeonseed must choose either Constitution or Charisma as it's Primary Ability Score. This decision cannot be changed once made, and influences a number of abilities the dungeon may manifest.

Dungeonseeds that choose Charisma as their Primary Ability Score gain bonus hit points each level (including 1st) based on their Charisma modifier rather than their Constitution modifier. The strength of self of the dungeon literally reinforces its body in these cases.

The dungeonseed gains an initial 16 cubes (5x5x5) that make up its form. This replaces any previous form that the seed might have had. It can place these cubes in any configuration it prefers though it must adhere to a few simple rules. This initial room is a single space, and may have no internal dividing walls. Once placed the room can never be removed entirely. Cubes may be moved by using the Shape Feature class ability to shape new squares in one direction and unshape them in another, but a minimum of 16 connected spaces, undivided by walls, must exist in a non-formative state at all times (see Shape Feature below).

One of these cubes must be designated to hold a Dungeon Heart (see Shape Feature below for details on the Heart). This crystalline shape varies in size and appearance from host to host, but is always distinguishable from the surrounding dungeon. This costs no additional points to form, as it is the seat of consciousness of the dungeonseed itself, literally the (soft, gooey) center of the structure.

The walls a seed forms may be damaged in the same fashion as any other normal wall, and can be breached if they are attacked directly. Damage done to these walls does also harm the dungeonseed, but only to a certain degree. Dungeonseeds only take 1/10th the damage done to a given wall segment. Damage done in excess of the wall's hit points does not damage the dungeonseed, and a dungeonseed may not be reduced below half of their hit point total by damage in this fashion. Walls that are damaged heal naturally at the same rate the dungeonseed does. Damage done to a given wall segment may be healed using Repair spells, though Cure spells have no effect. All walls that comprise a dungeonseed's interior or exterior start with a hardness of 5 and 15 hit points each, regardless of the materials they appear to be composed of.

The exterior and interior gain whatever appearance the Dungeon Seed desires, though most tend towards simple caves or large trees to blend in with their environment and to evade unwanted attention. The exterior and interior walls can appear to be made of any particular material (even differing in appearnace on different sides of the same wall, if desired), though this does not affect their physical resilience in any way.

The Dungeon Seed retains any subtypes or types it had before the transformation. Additionally, it gains the Living Construct subtype, with all associated benefits and hindrances. It retains it's ability scores, class features, and all other previous statistics save for its senses and movement types (though some of these may be reliant on gross physical features that no longer exist, the abilities themselves are not actually lost). The dungeon gains tremorsense within itself, but must otherwise rely on its host form or minions to sense intruders. The Dungeon Seed's form may be affected by spells as though it were an object.

A Dungeon Seed cannot advance in another other class except for Dungeon Seed after it has taken the first level of this class until it completes the full progression.

As a courtesy, DMs should provide the lay of the land to Dungeonseed players. Expecting them to form a shape blind would be cruel, though some may deem this a worthy challenge for a character who is literally a living structure.

Also, I know this is huge, but this is literally as condensed as I could get in knocking out the basic rules for turning a living being into a sentient structure.


Shape Features -

A room without any adornment, traps, hallways, or enigmatic devices isn't much of a dungeon. The form points that a Dungeon Seed obtains during its growth can be used to shape its internal architecture into more enticing and defensible ways. The following are features that can be shaped by a Dungeon Seed within it's dungeon form.


Shape Space -
Cost: 1 point/2 cubes
Requirements: None
Time to form: 1 day per cube
Time to remove: 1 day per cube

A Dungeon Seed may expand its current shape by spending some of its form points. For each point that it spends, it gains another two cubes of space that it can use to expand. These cubes must be contiguous with its current form. The dungeon may include one door within this space each time it is shaped, if it so chooses. This door is shaped with the same hardness and hit points as the rest of the walls, but may be augmented individually. Doors generated with this ability may be locked, and such locks have a DC equal to 10 + the Dungeon's ranks in Open Lock.

The dungeon slowly removes the necessary material from the area it intends to inhabit, so these squares may be situated even where there is already material (such as stone or dirt, though harder materials may provide more resistance). As per the original space it generates, these can appear to be of any material or substance the dungeon seed desires.

Each time this feature is shaped, the Dungeon Seed gains one hit point. Additionally, the extra spaces provided by the starting dungeon form and subsequent moltings each provide one extra hit point per space.

Augments

Resistant Walls -
Cost: 1 point per 4 spaces
The spaces indicated gain resistance 10 to one type of elemental damage.
Special: This augment can be taken multiple times. It stacks with itself when it is taken multiple times for the same element.

Retaliatory Walls -
Cost: 1 point per 2 spaces
The spaces indicated will strike back against those that seek to damage them. If a space with this augment is attacked, it immediately retaliates against its attacker, striking out with parts of itself. The wall attacks with the Base Attack Bonus of the Dungeon Seed, plus its Strength modifier, and does 1d12 damage.
Special: This augment can be taken multiple times. If it is taken multiple times for the same segments, they increase the damage they do by one die.

Secret Walls -
Cost: 1 point per 2 spaces
The spaces indicated can hide a door, which must be placed between the two selected spaces. The DC of the search check necessary to find this door is equal to 10 + the Dungeon Seed's ranks in Hide.
Special: This augment can be taken multiple times, though each time it must affect a different set of squares.

Doors generated with this ability may be locked, and such locks have a DC equal to 10 + the Dungeon's ranks in Open Lock.


Shape Clutter -
Cost: 1 point/10 cubes
Requirements: None
Time to form: 1 hour
Time to remove: 1 hour

An empty dungeon is a boring dungeon and also may be suspicious to adventurers. This shaping allows the dungeon to fill its space with that convincing 'stuff' that makes things a little more believable. Rubble, books for shelves, tiny splatters of dripping water, all of those unique things that define the atmosphere of the dungeon.

This shaping can also be used to create difficult terrain or obstacles (including furniture) as needed. Items created in this fashion have the same hardness and hit points as their substance and shape dictate, though the dungeon may not create clutter out of any special materials. Substance created in this way is always non-magical and simply withers away within 1d4 days after being removed from the dungeon. This clutter can be shaped to appear valuable, but is never convincing when examined closely. Weapons may be created with this ability, but always count as improvised, and the dungeon may not generate harsh chemicals or other damaging effects.

Augments -


Shape Trap -
Cost: 1 point
Requirements: None
Time to form: 1 day
Time to remove: 10 minutes

A Dungeon Seed is uniquely vulnerable. Unlike most creatures it has no natural attacks, no means to defend itself unless it relies on minions or its host form. However, its control over its body allows it to create mechanical traps that can fill the gaps where these other methods fail. Each trap has three variables that must be defined when it is created. One of each of these may be chosen from the list below:

Trigger -

Touch
A touch trigger is a simple mechanism that allows the dungeon to very accurately determine when a creature is within range of its trap. A touch trigger allows the dungeon to immediately spring the trap associated with it, gaining a bonus to the attack roll of the trap equal to its dungeon form's intelligence modifier. The touch trigger also acts as a very simple sensory organ for the dungeon, though it is largely redundant with the tremorsense the dungeon possesses. Still, clever Dungeon Seeds might use this as a means of receiving input that the they might otherwise not acquire.

Proximity
A proximity trigger is a much less accurate mechanism that relies on an enhancement of the dungeon's tremorsense to activate. It provides no bonuses to the trap triggered, but can be used to spring traps on foes from a greater distance. A trap with a proximity trigger can be sprung on any creature within a 10 foot radius of the square the trigger exists in.

Reset -

Automatic
A trap with an automatic reset requires no additional action from the Dungeon Seed in order to reset itself. It simply reverts back to a ready state three rounds after it has been triggered. However, this sort of trap also lacks the finer parts necessary for the Dungeon Seed to repair any attempts to disable the trap. If the trap is successfully disabled, the Seed must unshape and then re-shape the trap in order to repair it.

Manual
A manual reset trap is more complicated in some ways than an automatic trap. It requires attention from the Dungeon Seed in order to reset, but is also composed of redundant parts and more complicated mechanisms. A trap with a manual reset requires a full-round action from the Dungeon to reset, but may also be repaired if it is disabled. These repairs take two rounds of full round actions, plus one round by each 5 points the trap's DC was beaten by.

Effect -

Melee Damage
The Dungeon seed may use blades, crushing walls, or other means to damage intruders and prey. These are treated as medium-size weapons with one of the following set of statistics.

{table=head]Damage|Critical Range
1d10|
x2

1d8|
19-20/x2

1d6|
18-20/x3

1d4|
17-20/x4

[/table]

A Dungeon Seed may add their dungeon form's Strength Modifier as a bonus to attack and damage rolls with melee traps. As a final option, a dungeon may also choose for the created trap to deal no damage at all, but instead resolve as a touch attack. This allows a Dungeon Seed to channel class features (such as the Dread Necromancer's Charnel Touch) through its traps.

Ranged Damage

The Dungeon seed may use javelins, arrows, darts or other means to damage intruders and prey. These are treated as medium-size weapons with one of the following set of statistics.

{table=head]Damage|Critical Range|Range Increment
1d10|
x2|
5 ft

1d8|
x2|
10 ft

1d6|
x2|
20 ft

1d4|
x2|
40 ft

[/table]

A Dungeon Seed may add their dungeon form's Dexterity Modifier as a bonus to attack and damage rolls with ranged traps. As a final option, a dungeon may also choose for the created trap to deal no damage at all, but instead resolve as a ranged touch attack (with a range increment of 10). This allows a Dungeon Seed to channel class features (such as the Dread Necromancer's Charnel Touch) through its traps.

Shifting Architecture
This covers all types of events that do not directly do damage to an intruder. Floors dropping away, shifting walls, rotating rooms, all of these effects are covered under this particular category, though each must be clearly defined at the time the trap is created.

Traps created by the Dungeon Seed have Disable DCs equal to 10 + the number of ranks it has invested into Disable Device and Search DCs equal to 10 + the number of ranks it has invested into Hide. Any traps that require saving throws (as a trap floor might), use 10 + 1/2 the levels in the Dungeon Seed class + (either the Dungeon Seed's Charisma or Constitution modifier, as chosen at 1st level) to determine the DC of the saving throw.

Shape Dungeon Heart -
Cost: 2 points/Dungeon Seed level
Requirements: None
Time to form: 12 hours/Dungeon Seed level
Time to remove: 4 days

A Dungeon Heart is the core and center of the Dungeon Seed. It is necessary for it's continued existence, and if destroyed must be reshaped as quickly as possible.

Special: The points invested into the Dungeon Heart are returned as soon as it has finished shaping, unlike most shapings. A Dungeon Seed may only have one Dungeon Heart at a time, unless special circumstances dictate otherwise.



Shape Minions

A dungeon without inhabitants is a lonely dungeon indeed. As it molts, the Dungeon Seed begins to sprout the creatures that will inhabit and guard it. These are usually simple beasts, with little intellect of their own and a strong inclination to stay within the bounds of the dungeon itself. That said, they are also living creatures, and require sustenance the dungeon may not be able to provide.

Minion Creation -

The rules for creating minions are listed below:

Minions cost 1 Form Point per Hit Die.
A Dungeon Seed may create minions of up to 4/5 of the Dungeon Seed's level (to a minimum of one, though rounding down in all other regards). A minion gains the usual bonus multiplier on skill points at first level and gains feats as usual, but does not gain attribute increases for extra hit dice.
A Dungeon Seed may have no more than five times its class level in HD spread amongst its minions at any time.
Minions start with the standard array for ability scores (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10 placed as desired). These can be upgraded by purchasing augments.
Unless otherwise upgraded, all minions start as Medium-sized with a movement speed of 30'.
A dead (or destroyed) minion, or one that is no longer useful, can be reabsorbed in 1 day returning all of the points spent on it at the end of that time. If a minion is slain outside of the dungeon or its body removed from the dungeon, the Dungeon Seed regains the points at a rate of 2 points a day, until the full amount of points invested in that minion has been restored.
Minions require 1 day per Hit Die to form.
Minions are born from a cyst, formed by the Dungeon Seed within itself. A medium creature requires one 5x5x5 cube, a small creature requires half that (so up to two may be placed in one square), and a tiny creature one quarter that size. Similarly, a large creature requires two cubes, and a huge creature requires four. These cubes must be contiguous.
A minion may take on any appearance the Dungeon Seed desires. All augments are readily apparent unless disguised (see below). A disguised augment can be recognized for what it is by making a spot check against a DC equal to 10 + the Dungeon Seed's class levels + the Dungeon Seed's ranks in Disguise at the time the creature was made. Those that have no readily visible exterior effect (such as a breath weapon) may not be identified in this fashion.
A cyst has as many hit points as the minion would as well as the AC and hardness of the dungeon's walls. If a cyst is ruptured before the minion inside is fully formed, the Dungeon Seed takes damage equal to the number of form points it had invested in that minion's growth, but does not lose any form points as a result.
All minions have the following special quality:

Dungeon Vassal -
The minion has an innate, unbreakable connection to the dungeon that created it. Though not direct control, the dungeon has a tangible effect on the creature's behavior. The dungeon may provide general inclinations and behaviors for the creature (such as creating a guard routine through manipulating a sense of paranoia, or heightening a sense of urgency to achieve greater speed moving towards a destination), though not direct commands so long as the minion is within the Dungeon Seed's body. All minions recognize other minions from the same dungeon as allies, and will tend to work together to achieve the goals provided to them.

This connection also allows a dungeon use of its minions senses. As a swift action, the dungeon may share any or all of a particular minion's senses. This lasts for as long as the dungeon desires, or until the minion is slain. A Dungeon Seed may only share senses with a number of minions equal to it's Intelligence modifier, to a minimum of 1.

Lastly, if the dungeon possesses any emotion altering effects through its Ambient Sorceries ability, it may target its minions directly rather than only a specific area, even if they are otherwise immune to these abilities. The area of effect, however, is confined to the individual minion.


Types -
Minions start with type which must be chosen from this list. That type provides them with a basic set of features, traits, starting augments, initial class skills, as well as cost modifiers for the various classifications of augments. A minions type determines how many minion points it gains for each HD it possesses, as well as any cost modifications to augments. Minion points are used to purchase augments which provide the minion with increased ability scores, special attacks, resistances, or other qualities.

Animal

Hit Die - d8
BAB - HD (as Cleric)
Saving Throws - Good Fort and Reflex, Poor Will
Class Skills -
Minion Points/HD - 6

Traits -
Animals eat, sleep, and breathe.
Animals are proficient with their natural attacks.
Animals have low-light vision and scent special qualities.
An animal with an Intelligence score of 10 or lower reduces that score to 1, an animal with an Intelligence score of 11 or higher reduces their Intelligence score to 2.

Augment Costs -

Special -


Humanoid

Hit Die - d8
BAB - HD (as Cleric)
Saving Throws - Good Reflex, Poor Fort and Will
Class Skills -
Minion Points/HD - 8

Traits -
Humanoids eat, sleep, and breathe.
Humanoids are proficient with simple weapons and natural attacks.

Augment Costs -

Special -


Monstrous Humanoid

Hit Die - d8
BAB - Full HD (as Fighter)
Saving Throws - Good Reflex and Will, Poor Fort
Class Skills -
Minion Points/HD - 6

Traits -
Monstrous Humanoids eat, sleep, and breathe.
Monstrous Humanoids are proficient with simple weapons and natural attacks.

Augment Costs -

Special -


Vermin

Hit Die - d8
BAB - HD (as Cleric)
Saving Throws - Good Fort, Poor Reflex and Will
Class Skills -
Minion Points/HD - 4

Traits -
Vermin eat, sleep, and breathe.
Vermin are proficient with their natural attacks.
Vermin have Darkvision to 30'
Vermin are mindless.

Augment Costs -

Special -



Augments -

General Augments

Elite - The minion's base attributes instead use the Elite Array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), arranged as desired.
Cost: 10 points

Super Elite - The minion's base attributes instead use the following statistic array (17, 16, 15, 13, 12, 10), arranged as desired.
Special -[/B]
Cost: 20 points

Strong - This grants a +2 bonus to Strength.
Cost: 3 points
Special: This may be taken more than once, up to once per five hit dice.

Nimble - This grants a +2 bonus to Dexterity.
Cost: 3 points
Special: This may be taken more than once, up to once per five hit dice.

Tough - This grants a +2 bonus to Constitution.
Cost: 3 points
Special: This may be taken more than once, up to once per five hit dice.

Clever - This grants a +2 bonus to Intelligence.
Cost: 3 points
Special: This may be taken more than once, up to once per five hit dice.

Resolute - This grants a +2 bonus to Wisdom.
Cost: 3 points
Special: This may be taken more than once, up to once per five hit dice.

Alluring - This grants a +2 bonus to Charisma.
Cost: 3 points
Special: This may be taken more than once, up to once per five hit dice.

Weak - This grants a -2 penalty to Strength.
Cost: -1 point
Special: This may be taken more than once, though no ability may be brought lower than 6 through this augmentation.

Clumsy - This grants a -2 penalty to Dexterity.
Cost: -1 point
Special: This may be taken more than once, though no ability may be brought lower than 6 through this augmentation.

Frail - This grants a -2 penalty to Constitution.
Cost: -1 point
Special: This may be taken more than once, though no ability may be brought lower than 6 through this augmentation.

Dull-Witted - This grants a -2 penalty to Intelligence.
Cost: -1 point
Special: This may be taken more than once, though no ability may be brought lower than 6 through this augmentation.

Weak-Willed - This grants a -2 penalty to Wisdom.
Cost: -1 point
Special: This may be taken more than once, though no ability may be brought lower than 6 through this augmentation.

Hideous - This grants a -2 penalty to Charisma.
Cost: -1 point
Special: This may be taken more than once, though no ability may be brought lower than 6 through this augmentation.

Immobile - The minion does not have any movement speeds, and may not travel of it's own volition.
Cost: -2 points
Special: Minions with this augmentation may not choose any ability that grants them a movement speed.

Quick - The minion gains a +5 foot bonus to one speed.
Cost: 2 points

Resilient - One additional save of the minion is treated as though it had a 'good' progression, instead of 'poor'.
Cost: 6 points

Sturdy - The minion gains 3 hit points.
Cost: 1 point
Special: This can be taken any number of times.



Skilled Augments

Agile - The minion adds Balance, Escape Artist, and Tumble to its class skills and gains a +1 bonus to these skills.
Cost: 3 points

Arms Knowledge [Primitive] - The minion becomes proficient with light armor and simple weapons.
Cost: 3 points

Arms Knowledge [Advanced] - The minion becomes proficient with medium armor, all shields save for tower shields, and any three martial weapons (chosen when the minion is spawned).
Cost: 4 points
Prerequisite: Primitive Arms Knowledge

Builder - This minion is particularly suited to creating and repairing structures. When it assists it's parent dungeon, any use of the Shape Features ability takes one hour less than usual, to a minimum of half the normally required time. Assisting in this fashion requires the minion to work alongside the dungeon during the entire duration of the process. Additionally, for creating or repairing other structures, the minion gains a +4 bonus to their craft skill when determining the amount of time it takes to effect the construction/repairs.
Cost: 6 points

Civilized - The minion adds Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense motive to its class skills and gains a +1 bonus to these skills.
Cost: 3 points
Prerequisite: Charisma and Intelligence scores of 8

Inherent Skill - The minion gains a +4 racial bonus to one skill.
Cost: 2 points
Special: This ability may be taken more than once, though it cannot be applied more than twice to a particular skill.

Inquisitive - The minion adds Appraise, Decipher Script, and Gather Information to its class skills and gains a +1 bonus to these skills.
Cost: 3 points

Magically-Inclined - The minion adds Concentration, Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device to its class skills and gains a +1 bonus to these skills.
Cost: 3 points

Mechanically-Inclined - The minion adds Disable Device, Open Lock, and Use Rope to its class skills and gains a +1 bonus to these skills.
Cost: 3 points

Mischievous - The minion adds Forgery, Escape Artist, and Sleight of Hand to its class skills and gains a +1 bonus to these skills.
Cost: 3 points

Practiced - The minion gains five skill points.
Cost: 2 points
Special: This may be taken more than once.

Scholarly - The minion may add any three Knowledge skills to its class skills and gains a +1 bonus to these skills.
Cost: 3 points
Prerequisite: Must have an Intelligence Score of 8
Special: A minion may not be created with more ranks in a Knowledge skill than the Dungeon itself has. It's simply not possible for the Dungeon Seed to self-generate answers for questions it might have. However, once a minion has been created, it may gain ranks in knowledge skills appropriately.

Skilled - The minion adds two skills to its class skills.
Cost: 3 points
Special: This may be taken more than once.


Extraordinary Augments

Blood Drain - The minion gains the ability to drain the blood of it's enemies. If the minion is able to pin an opponent in a grapple, they automatically deal 1d6 damage, in addition to any other damage they may do. This damage is in turn healed by the minion. A minion may not exceed it's maximum hit points in this fashion, but may still continue to do this extra damage during a pin. This damage recurs every turn the minion maintains the pin.
Cost: 6 points

Broodling - Minions are always easier to form when they are working from the same template. A Dungeon Seed may nominate up to ten minions as broodlings during their creation. These minions must have the same type and enhancements chosen (though they may have different ability scores as the result of different placements of the Elite Array). If this is done, the minions cost one less minion point per hit die.
Cost: -4 points/minion

Diseased - The minion is a carrier for a particular disease. Any creature wounded by the minion's natural weapons must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the minion's HD + the minion's Con modifier) or contract the disease. Viable diseases for this ability are: Blinding Sickness, Cackle Fever, Filth Fever, Mindfire, Red Ache, and the Shakes. All diseases count as though their infection method was "injury". Additionally, the minion becomes immune to the disease they are carrying. If they are ever cured of this disease, it reappears within 24 hours.
[/Size]Cost: 4 points[/Size]

Dungeonthrall - The Dungeon Seed may telepathically communicate with and control the minion with this ability as it sees fit. A Dungeon Seed may control no more than one minion per point of it's intelligence modifier at a time. A minion may be directed as a swift action, or directly controlled using the Dungeon's own actions.
Cost: 5 points

Expendable - Minions with this ability are fragile and easily abused. They only gain two hit points per hit die, gaining no bonuses for a high Constitution modifier, and automatically fail any saving throws required of them (though they may not always be affected by the result).
Cost: -3 points
Special: Minions with this ability are precluded from taking the following augmentations: Elite, Super-Elite,

Leader - The minion gains one minor aura from the Marshal list. This is otherwise identical to the Marshal's aura abilities.
Cost: 8 points

Paralysis - One of the minion's natural attacks exudes a paralytic poison. A creature hit by that weapon must make a saving throw (DC 10 + the minion's Constitution modifier) or be paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. The minion generates enough venom to use this ability a number of times a day equal to 1 + it's Constitution modifier.
Cost: 6 points
Prerequisite: Natural Attack

Stalwart - The minion gains DR 1/ - .
Cost: 3 points
Special: This can be taken multiple times, up to a maximum equal to it's hit dice.

Stench - The minion has the ability to naturally produce, under stress, a terrible odor offensive to nearly everything alive. Any creature with 10 feet of the minion must make a fortitude save or be sickened for (1d4 + the minion's Constitution modifier) rounds. A creature that makes the save against a minion's stench ability cannot be affected by the same minion's stench for 24 hours. Creatures that are immune to poison are unnaffected, and those with resistance to poison may make the save with their normal bonus. The minion may activate this ability 1 + Con Modifier number of times per day, and it lasts for a number of rounds equal to the minion's Constitution modifier.
Cost: 8 points
Special: Minions with this ability are immune to the stench of other minions with this ability.

Tooth and Claw - The minion gains a natural attack, chosen from the list below. The damage for this attack is sized for a medium-sized minion.

Attack|Damage|Critical
Bite|
1d4|
x3
2 Claws|
1d3/1d3|
x2
Gore|
1d4|
x4
Sting|
1d4|
19-20/x2
Slam|
1d6|
x2
2 Tentacles|
1d2/1d2|
x3

Cost: 1 point
Special: This ability may be purchased once for every three hit dice the minion has.

Venomous - The minion can deliver poison with one of their natural attacks. The poison does initial damage to one ability score (chosen when this ability is selected) other than Constitution, followed up by secondary damage one minute later. The base damage for this ability is 1d2/1d2.
Cost: 4 points
Prerequisite: Natural Attack
Special: The poison damage may be increased by one die for either the initial or secondary damage for an additional point (this cost is cumulative, so increasing the die twice or increasing each once costs 3 points). Neither damage can be increased beyond 1d10 in this fashion.

Web - The minion gains the Web ability of a Monstrous Spider.
[/Size]Cost: 4 points[/Size]



Bestial Augments


Airborne - The minion gains a fly speed of 20 feet, with clumsy maneuverability.
Cost: 4 points

Agile Flyer - The maneuverability of the minion increases by one step.
Prerequisite: Airborne
Cost: 2 points
Special: This may be taken more than once, up to a maximum of Good maneuverability.

Burrower - The minion gains a burrow speed of 20 feet, and may burrow through soft earth, clay, and similar materials.
Cost: 3 points
Special: This may be taken a maximum of two times. The second time, it allows the minion to burrow through hard stone though they only move their speed in minutes, rather than rounds.

Climber - The minion gains a climb speed of 20 feet, as well as the +8 bonus to climb that comes with the ability to naturally move in that fashion.
Cost: 2 points

Darksight - The minion gains Darkvision to 20 feet.
Cost: 1 point
Special: The minion may be given the Light Blindness quality paired with this enhancement. If this is done, the cost for this enhancement becomes 0. For an additional 2 points, the Darkvision granted by this augment instead extends to 40 feat.

Grappler - The minion gains a +2 bonus to grapple checks..
Cost: 2 points
Special: For an additional 2 points, the minion gains the Improved Grapple feat, regardless of if it meets the qualifications.

Heightened Senses - The minion gains the Scent special quality.
Cost: 1 points

Horde - Minions with this ability are able to share a space with up to one other minion with the same ability, crawling and scuttling over each other as needed. The minion takes a -2 penalty to attacks and saves while doing so.
Cost: 4 points

Rage - When the minion is first damaged in combat, it flies into a rage identical to a barbarian's rage gaining +4 Strength, +4 Constitution and -2 AC. This rage lasts for 2 rounds + the minion's new Constitution modifier, or until the creature that wounded it is dead, whichever comes first. The minion may not voluntarily end this rage.
Cost: 2 points

Scrabbler - When determining the size of spaces the minion can move through it is treated as one size smaller than it's normal size.
Cost: 1 point

Swimmer - The minion gains a swim speed of 20 feet, as well as the +8 bonus to swim that comes with the ability to naturally move in that fashion.
Cost: 2 points


Mythic Augments

Elemental Resistance - The minion gains a resistance of five to one element of their choosing.
Cost: 3 points
Special: This augment can be taken multiple times, choosing a different element each time.

Exude Element - The minion emanates or exudes an element of it's choice (either fire, cold, acid, or electricity). This element does 1d4 damage to any creature striking the minion with a natural melee attack. It also applies to any damage done by the minion's natural attacks.
Cost: 5 points
Special: [/list]
Damage can be increased by one die by spending 2 minion points (this cost is cumulative, so two die increases would cost a total of 6 points). The damage from this ability may not exceed 1d10.
The range of the ability may also be increased. For 2 points, the ability may affect creatures using manufactured melee weapons against the minion (though not those with reach) and also applies to any manufactured weapon the minion wields. For a total of 5 points, the minion exudes the element to a range of five feet, affecting any creatures within that area.
A minion may start or stop exuding elements as a standard action.
[/list]




Arcane Augments

Minor Arcane Ability - The minion may choose one 0th level spell from the cleric or sorcerer/wizard spell lists. This spell-like ability may be used up to 3+ the minion's Intelligence modifier times/day.
Cost: 4 points
Special: For 4 points, this spell-like ability can be used at-will. For 6 points, this may instead be a 1st level spell.

Healer - The minion gains the ability to lay on hands as a standard action, healing 1d4 + Wisdom modifier in damage. The minion may do this a number of times per day equal to 1 + their Wisdom modifier.
Cost: 4 points


There is also one particular minion that the Dungeon Seed can shape, that of its original host. Unlike its normal minions, the host form grows with it, becoming more powerful as the dungeon itself does. By spending five form points, the seed may generate a reasonable facsimile of its original host. This body is physically independent of the dungeon and may move and act freely as directed by the Dungeon Form, appearing as the host did prior to the bonding of the seed.

The specifics of the Host Form are detailed below -

This body is identical in all respects to the initial host, with the following changes:

Only one Host Form may be shaped at a time.
The body shares any subtypes that the Dungeon Seed has, including the Living Construct subtype gained by the dungeon.
The host is shaped with the same stats as the Dungeon Seed, and as many hit points as the Dungeon does at full health. The host does not gain any hit points granted by shaping more dungeon spaces or features, just those normally granted by the hit die and Constitution or Charisma modifier of the Dungeon. The host also gains the senses and original movement modes of the Dungeon Seed's original form.
The shaped host uses the Dungeon Seed's BAB, Saves, and has access to its permanent or constant class features should they be applicable.
If the Dungeon Seed has spellcasting or sublime abilities, or those with a limited use per day, it can transfer spell slots, maneuvers, or uses of these abilities to the body it creates. (Example - Thorosain is a level 3 wizard. When he generates his original form, he transfers 1 first level spell slot and 1 second level spell slot to that body. His dungeon form retains the other slots and can use them as he sees fit, though it would be easier for him to study his spellbook with actual hands, and both selves can benefit from doing so via their telepathic bond).
The Host Form is, literally, a puppet for the Dungeon. It takes no actions unless the dungeon wills it, controlling the Host directly with its own actions. The Dungeon and Host share a telepathic bond that exists for up to one mile per level of the Dungeon Seed. Outside of that range, the host becomes uncontrolled, doing nothing on its own and immediately beginning to degrade as if the Dungeon had decided to release the Host Form. The dungeon form and host form may share spell effects, maneuvers, or other effects between them so long as the other form is a valid target for the effect.
As long as the Dungeon Seed and its host form have a telepathic connection, they form a limited hive mind. If one is aware of a particular danger, both of them are. If one of them is not-flat footed, neither of them is. While under this bond, the host form cannot be flanked by creatures that the dungeon is also perceiving.
The host form can be reabsorbed by the dungeon as a full-round action if it is currently inside the dungeon form which returns all points invested into the host form. Otherwise, the dungeon can simply abandon the body at whatever distance it is away, regaining one point in each stat, one form point, and ten hit points per day until it returns to its maximum values. This also occurs if the host form is killed. A Dungeon Seed may not shape another host form until it has regained all of the lost form points, stats, and hit points from its slain or abandoned host form.
At level six, a Host that has been absorbed into the dungeon (as noted above) may be regurgitated elsewhere within the dungeon the next round as a full-round action by the Dungeon Seed.
While the Host is within the dungeon form, it heals at double the usual rate. At level five this instead becomes fast healing 1 and increases by 1 for each 4 levels past that the Dungeon Seed has.
Unlike other minions, the Host Form may not be modified or granted normal minion special abilities. They are as much a construct of the Dungeon Seed's persona as they are a physical being, and as such liable to change very little in appearance over the course of the Dungeon's growth.
Any magical items carried, worn, or wielded by the Host Form count towards the value of magical items the Dungeon Seed must maintain in order to survive. The dungeon simply draws the energies required through its link with the Host Form.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-01, 04:45 PM
Ambient Sorceries

The Dungeon Seed is, by nature, a magical creature. It thrives on magical energy, even requires it to exist. It's no surprise, then, that the dungeon is able to create magical effects within itself.

A dungeon may choose one spell from the Dungeon Seed list at 2nd level and every second level past that point. It may select a spell of a level equal to half of it's Dungeon Seed level. It can manifest this spell centered on any point within itself, though it takes one hour to do so. This spell is then a constant effect within that area until the Dungeon Seed decides to replace it or move it.


Thick Walls

The skin of the dungeon grows thicker and more resilient over time. While the initial 'body' of the dungeon is fairly weak, the skin and flesh of a fully-grown dungeon is harder than steel. At level four, and every four levels thereafter, the walls and Dungeon Heart of the Dungeon Seed increase their hardness by 2.

This effect persists automatically as long as the Dungeon Seed has hit points invested in the space the walls exist inside.

Least Molting

At level five, the Dungeon Seed undergoes the first of several moltings. The internal structures of the dungeon goes into disarray as it expands and sheds its old walls and clutter. This process takes 2d4 days, during which dungeon must reabsorb all features and minions, save for formed rooms and it's shaped host. During this time, the exterior of the dungeon stays largely the same, though it may move or shiver in unnatural ways. Should the dungeon be attacked while in this vulnerable state, it may immediately generate a number any number of features or minions to defend itself, though each costs a point of Constitution damage as they are literally torn from the forming matter of the Dungeon itself. Additionally, for each point of damage taken in this way, the molting takes another 12 hours to complete.

When it emerges from this molting, the Dungeon Seed will have changed drastically. It adds another 5 spaces to it's primary form (though these must be contiguous with the initial spaces it placed of itself) as well as choosing one of the changes below:

Least Moltings -

Haunted Citadel
Pre-Requisites: Knowledge: Religion 6 ranks

Cold mists swirl around the hallways of the Haunted Citadel, whispers unnerving the living even as the dead walk the flagstones here. This is a place for the dead, hallowed and sacred or defiled and full of ancient hate.

Benefits -
The Dungeon adds Animate Dead, Fear and Gentle Repose to the Ambient Sorceries it can manifest.

The will of the dungeon lessens divine powers that might harm it's denizens, granting all undead turn resistance equal to half of it's Dungeon Seed level.

Further, the Dungeon Seed adds the following enhancements to the minions it can create.

Enhancements -

Undead
Cost: 2 points
Class Skills - Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Use Magic Device
Special: A minion created with this type gains the benefit of any Corpsecrafting feats the Dungeon Seed possesses. Additionally, the Dungeon Seed may choose to make any undead minions mindless at no additional cost.


Hall of Root and Branch
Pre-Requisites: Knowledge: Nature 3 ranks

Arcane Hold
Pre-Requisites: Knowledge: Arcana 6 ranks

Radiant Keep
Pre-Requisites: Knowledge: The Planes 6 ranks, Good Alignment

Wicked Manor
Pre-Requisites: Knowledge: The Planes 6 ranks, Evil Alignment

Enigmatic Estate
Pre-Requisites: Knowledge: The Planes 6 ranks

Ogrish Fortress
Pre-Requisites: Knowledge: Nature 3 ranks

Golemic Redoubt
Pre-Requisites: Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering 6 ranks

Resonant Residence
Pre-Requisites: Perform: Any 6 ranks

Grand Dungeon
Pre-Requisites: None


Spelltrap

Dungeon Seed Spell List -

1st Level:
Alarm, Bane, Bless, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Hold Portal, Light, Obscuring Mist, Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Sanctuary, Unseen Servant, Silent Image

2nd Level:

Gideon Falcon
2011-05-02, 11:58 PM
I'm intrigued. This was inspired in part by the Ozodrin, wasn't it? At least in mechanics?

Xzoltar
2011-05-03, 07:32 AM
Not sure what to say really, the concept sound good, but im still not really sure what this class is for. Sound more like a dungeon master toy for npc, can't see the use on a Player, why would someone gestalt with this ? UNless you play a Dungeon Keeper style of Campaign (where it will really rock I think), the use seem very limited

Could you post a sample npc ?

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-03, 01:46 PM
I'm intrigued. This was inspired in part by the Ozodrin, wasn't it? At least in mechanics?

It was, to some extent. Actually, there are a number of classes from the boards that I've taken inspiration from. The Ozodrin and related prestige classes, the Eidolon Binder, and a number of others are all interesting things that are helping to fuel the ideas here.

I've been a little slow on updating this as I go (I've got a lot of material written down), but I'll see about adding a..design approach and goal to each relevant ability to kind of explain the what and why of it.

I've got to get the Moltings down at least, since they'll provide quite a bit of flavor and customization, and then I'll post a couple dungeons/npcs.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-16, 12:32 AM
So, to bump this up and also inspire a little bit of talkings about the things that are going on, I'm having a bit of an internal debate over the minions and their point costs (as well as greater advancement further along in the class). I'd like to get this set up so most of the basic creatures you might expect in a dungeon are reproducible to some extent, while also not allowing ridiculously over-powered spawn.

To that end, I've been mucking around with numbers to see what it takes to create a particular creature. I've used the goblin, medium monstrous spider, and stirge as representatives of creatures that a dungeon might manifest. I've also added builder imps because, hey, might as well run with the Dungeon Keeper ideas. Some abilities have costs estimated because I haven't worked them out yet and could use some input here.

These are the basic rules -


Creatures are made in the same order of determination as applying a template. That means size and types are decided on, then ability scores and modifying effects, then saves and skill points and special abilities, and finally feats and other miscellaneous numbers that need to get factored in.
Each dungeon form point counts as 10 minion points for the purposes of purchasing the appropriate stuff.
A minion may only have a maximum of 10 points allotted to it per Hit Die it possesses.
Currently, the size and type of a creature determines the cost to add extra Hit Dice. I did it this way so that really nice types (like outsider and dragon) and sizes contribute in a continuing fashion to the cost of a creature. Similarly, templates (when I add them all in) will have a cost per HD, based on LA, CR, and whether or not someone along the way realized the template was far more powerful than it ought to be (I'm looking at you, Feral and Mineral-Warrior). Some of these may be discounted for various moltings, as it makes sense for most of the creatures in an Ogrish Fortress to have Powerful Build (as that is going to lead into giant-type creatures of larger sizes in later levels) or for a plant-themed dungeon to eventually be able to apply those really nice wood-themed templates on their minions.
I'm still very dodgy on skill points and costs for special abilities. I may have to create a list where special abilities that scale (breath weapons, poisons perhaps), have a recurring cost whereas those that don't have a one-time fee. Also, it gets pretty spendy to add extra skill points, though that might be acceptable given that the dungeon shouldn't necessarily have a crack squad of fix-it beasts to suit every conceivable situation.


So, let's get working:

Spawned Goblin
Size: Small (2 points)
Type: Humanoid (1 point)
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
Hideous (-1 point)
Mobile (0 points)
Quick x2 (2 points, I need to remember to make this able to be taken more than once)
Darkvision (1 point)
Primitive Arms Knowledge (1 point)
Arms Knowledge (1 point)
Inherent Skill (Move Silently) (2 points)
Inherent Skill (Ride) (2 points)
Broodling (-1 point)
Total Cost = 10 points

Analysis - This is really close to the base goblin. It's got skills in the proper places, has the base attribute mods of the gob, as well as the general feel of a lowly humanoid. The only place it lacks is the base ability scores, of which the goblin uses a slightly more diverse array. This could be gotten around by trading out penalties and bonuses though. And, by nature, they come in groups. This is the equivalent of 1 form point for the dungeon, so they should make respectable swarm creatures.

Spawned Spider
Size: Small (2 points)
Type: Vermin (2 points)
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 0, Wis 10, Cha 10
Extra HD x2 (8 points)
Hideous x2 (-2 points)
Nimble x2 (3 points)
Mobile (0 points)
Quick x2 (2 points)
Climber (1 point)
Darkvision (1 point)
Earthsight (3 points)
Venemous (2 points)
Natural Attack (1 point)
Web (2 points)
Inherent Skill (Hide) (2 points)
Inherent Skill (Spot) (2 points)
Broodling (-3 points)
Total Cost = 26 points

Analysis - This is one of the creatures I was happy to set as a benchmark because it seems to get so much..leeway with it's abilities. And to be fair, I think that the way that it is represented by the points is alright. It's certainly much more durable at three hit die, will have slightly better skills in some areas due to the bonus that the vermin type grants, and still be dangerous. But, it's also not a bruiser. The web ability, combined with cost, means that these spawn are much more effective laying in wait for a foe. Or draping webs all over the dungeon, which is a major benefit as well. You could probably make a spawn that did the something similar only cheaper, but again, benchmarking. The spider loses the ability to use it's Dex mod for climb and some of the area of its tremor sense. In exchange, it gets a slightly more virulent poison and a bunch of extra hit points. It also needs to come in groups, which could be problematic as the points don't exactly match up easily. On the flip side, all of the spiders could have the Elite augment and be even better.

I'll get the others up tomorrow, it's getting a little late. Should be easy enough to do, anyway. Thoughts and comments are always appreciated.

Epsilon Rose
2011-05-16, 01:45 AM
This is an interesting idea, however I notice several problems.


I'm fairly certain construct type sets your con to -.
If a dungeon forms a host both of their stats are likely to be abysmal (this is especially problematic for casters).
How would a dungeon gain the other abilities it's going to give it's host outside of gestalt and how could it make use of those abilities on it's own, seeing as it lacks the features required to use most of them.
Why and how does the dungeon have a dex score, since it can't move?
How is damage done/can damage be done to the actual dungeon? As it is destroying a single wall might very well kill it (or it's partially immortal).
As things stand there's no reason for a dungeon to not use manual reset traps since it has nothing to do with it's turns, It can use it every round, and they're easier to fix.
As things stand the only thing that matters is the number of magic items, not there individual power; which leads to...
Why are they hunting adventurers? Why not just buy a bunch of really cheap magic items and seal them behind a wall? After that they could just send their host to go work on whatever it is they want done. It's not like there natural form can benefit from much.
Can they use magic items themselves and if so how and how many?

Owrtho
2011-05-16, 03:32 PM
Living Construct subtype give a Con score to constructs (like warforged).

Anyway, I likewise find the class rather interesting, though I agree with some of the questions above. Magic items power should impact how many it needs. Thus a single highly powerful magic item could be able to keep a dungeon seed alive even if it would likely want more for backup.

Another question that is important to look at in regards to traps, minions, & the like, is how powerful do you want the class to actually be at any given level. By this I mean, what CR of encounters should it approximately be able to make. If you intend to keep it at the strength of a normal class, then it should be weaker than the CR corresponding to its level, given that a given CR should be a balanced challenge for 4 characters of that level, while the dungeon seed should only be about a balanced challenge for 1 of the same level.

Also, while you mentioned this is being intended for a solo gestalt game, you should also keep in mind how it would function in non-gestalt game.
It does also seem like it could have some interesting opportunities in a group game or as a good character. After all, from what I can tell, the way the dungeon is made to look seems rather open. As such they could, play a town/city/castle protector having said dwelling place actually be their dungeon, and the populace willingly providing them with magic items to protect the town. The party could even go on adventures to find magic items for that purpose, while also attempting to stop whatever forces threaten the town without worrying that it is unprotected.
Similarly the dungeon could act as the party's base or fulfil some other similar roles.

Owrtho

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-16, 03:53 PM
I'm fairly certain construct type sets your con to -.

Correct, though the Dungeon Seed gains the Living Construct types which does not.


If a dungeon forms a host both of their stats are likely to be abysmal (this is especially problematic for casters).

This is something I'm willing to consider alterations on, however it's there for a good reason. Having two bodies breaks the action economy if both of them are working with the same stats. If the player needs to spread their abilities out, then in all likelihood they are going to polarize to 'Dungeontime' and 'Adventuretime', with the host either having all of the abilities they can or being unshaped. This is to prevent things like crafting and spell research from happening automatically while the player is also out adventuring (should they desire to do so).

Also (and I say this as someone who regularly plays them), I am less sympathetic to casters. They tend to rank higher tier-wise than the melee or skill-based characters and while they shouldn't feel like their abilities are being negated, nor do they get special consideration for having to split scores. Also, there are planned effects that the dungeon will be able to shape should they desire their magic to be more potent on homeground.


How would a dungeon gain the other abilities it's going to give it's host outside of gestalt and how could it make use of those abilities on it's own, seeing as it lacks the features required to use most of them.

This is intended for gestalt play. That may make it more of a 'toy' class to some folks. However, a player who knows that their character is going to hit epic levels (or is playing one that has already done so) might also have other abilities from class levels gained before they started taking Dungeon Seed levels. The dungeon will also gain a few spells that it can manifest (via the ambient sorceries and spelltraps) that might be transferable to the host form. It's an idea I'm kicking around, depending on how everything else comes out.


Why and how does the dungeon have a dex score, since it can't move?

Because while the dungeon cannot move it's base form, it has bits and pieces that it has control over inside of it. Also, it cannot move it's form yet. I have plans for giving the dungeon the ability to move in some respect, whether that be extruding rooms and then removing the ones behind it (essentially causing the whole structure to amoeba around), or some sort of planar jumping. Maybe even, at very high levels, the ability to become a sort of dungeon-vehicle. We'll see.


How is damage done/can damage be done to the actual dungeon? As it is destroying a single wall might very well kill it (or it's partially immortal).

That is a..very good point. I think that a good way to run it might be that some percentage of the damage taken by the walls is also taken by the dungeon. It is, after all, it's body. A dungeon has hardness, though, as well as an excellent hit die to compensate for the damage it does take. And the fact that it basically looks like a building should prevent most folks from doing direct damage to the shape. Hm. This also doesn't address digging through a wall segment or other similar actions. I'll have to think about this more.


As things stand there's no reason for a dungeon to not use manual reset traps since it has nothing to do with it's turns, It can use it every round, and they're easier to fix.

This won't always be the case. When a dungeon is small and able to spend a turn resetting a trap it definitely makes sense to do so. When a dungeon gets larger, however, and more traps abound and spelltraps need activation and there are options for directing minions and activating ambient sorceries..well, maybe not so much. The option isn't there to be superfluous, and will have a use.


As things stand the only thing that matters is the number of magic items, not there individual power; which leads to...
- Why are they hunting adventurers? Why not just buy a bunch of really cheap magic items and seal them behind a wall? After that they could just send their host to go work on whatever it is they want done. It's not like there natural form can benefit from much.

Because adventurers are easy prey! They have a natural, in-born inclination to bring magic items into dungeons. The dungeon itself can potentially mount raids on other dungeons (essentially feeding on non-sentient kin, which is a cool idea), but adventurers already do all the work and if they disappear no one is going to bat an eyelash. Essentially, they are an excellent conveyance for the magic items that the Dungeon Seed requires. So it makes sense for a dungeon to foster rumors about itself and have the adventurers come packing those healing potions and wands and staves that are so very tasty. (Also, I've been thinking about adding a feat for the more bestial dungeons to be able to substitute flesh for magical energy in the short term.)

However, a dungeon has fairly little immediate deadliness. It's more a..slow digestion via trap and minion. It needs to get the adventurers so deep into it's gullet that they can't leave again, and treasure is an excellent lure. Especially magical treasure. So there's risk involved, which means sometimes it is going to lose some of it's foodstuff and it makes sense to have some extra.


Can they use magic items themselves and if so how and how many?

The host body can use magic items as it was able to before the transformation, as might be expected. The dungeon itself has little use for most items given that many are designed for races that have, you know, typical bodies. That said, I've considered a means for dungeons to encyst magic items within their bodies and either reap the effects or generate an aura that does the equivalent or something similar. This would eventually use up the item in question, but would allow them to use some of the cooler things they acquire through the course of their existence.

radmelon
2011-05-16, 06:32 PM
Well this looks downright fascinating. I really like what you've done so far and am eagerly awating more. btw, "Primitive Arms Knowledge" is mentioned twice.

Solaris
2011-05-16, 08:29 PM
How does this interact with the Leadership feat?

Why not make this something more like the dryad and her oak? The 'host' would only suffer for being far away from his dungeon rather than the two being forced to split ability scores.

Owrtho
2011-05-17, 12:05 AM
In case it got missed, I thought I'd mention I posted above. Looking at the times, & length of your post, I expect I posted while you were typing yours.


This is something I'm willing to consider alterations on, however it's there for a good reason. Having two bodies breaks the action economy if both of them are working with the same stats. If the player needs to spread their abilities out, then in all likelihood they are going to polarize to 'Dungeontime' and 'Adventuretime', with the host either having all of the abilities they can or being unshaped. This is to prevent things like crafting and spell research from happening automatically while the player is also out adventuring (should they desire to do so).

Also (and I say this as someone who regularly plays them), I am less sympathetic to casters. They tend to rank higher tier-wise than the melee or skill-based characters and while they shouldn't feel like their abilities are being negated, nor do they get special consideration for having to split scores. Also, there are planned effects that the dungeon will be able to shape should they desire their magic to be more potent on homeground.

One possible way to help with this is if you allowed a limited amount of ability points to be bought for the host using dungeon points, likely limiting it to physical ability scores & by your actual ability scores. This seems like it might also somewhat make sense, as the host is mostly just a construct, so it should be possible to make it better than it the base (in much the way you can make better minions, even if you can't give it all their bells & whistles).


This is intended for gestalt play. That may make it more of a 'toy' class to some folks. However, a player who knows that their character is going to hit epic levels (or is playing one that has already done so) might also have other abilities from class levels gained before they started taking Dungeon Seed levels. The dungeon will also gain a few spells that it can manifest (via the ambient sorceries and spelltraps) that might be transferable to the host form. It's an idea I'm kicking around, depending on how everything else comes out.

Personally, I think the class would be fun to play in a non-gestalt game & with a little work could function fine without being stuck in dungeon or host mode all the time. Mind it may require adding a few abilities for the host that might need to be specified as only being intended for non-gestalt games, but they likely wouldn't need to be as strong as those of a normal class due to the dungeon part of the class being the main focus (just something that it wouldn't amount to playing a commoner almost).


That is a..very good point. I think that a good way to run it might be that some percentage of the damage taken by the walls is also taken by the dungeon. It is, after all, it's body. A dungeon has hardness, though, as well as an excellent hit die to compensate for the damage it does take. And the fact that it basically looks like a building should prevent most folks from doing direct damage to the shape. Hm. This also doesn't address digging through a wall segment or other similar actions. I'll have to think about this more.

One possibility would be to have something along the lines of a core which is what needs to be attacked & destroyed to kill the dungeon. This would make the rest of the dungeon somewhat akin to a shell, and prevent things like someone trying to kill it just staying at the entrance breaking the floor and walls till it dies, while also allow a noticeable target for those that would want to kill it but don't know that they need to go after the building. To allow for somewhat more defensibility it would likely work best to allow multiple cores at higher levels with the dungeon seed being able to split up their hp between them.


Why not make this something more like the dryad and her oak? The 'host' would only suffer for being far away from his dungeon rather than the two being forced to split ability scores.

That would likely run counter to the point and enforce the problem. The main purpose of the host is going out and getting new magical items as best I can tell, while the reason it is overpowered if it gets full stats is due having essentially two characters to take actions when actually in the dungeon itself or at least a fully powered host & fully powered dungeon to deal with any threats (as opposed to possibly needing to get rid of the host so that the dungeon can be stronger to face the threats).

Also, as a side question, when a dungeon decided to abandon a host, does it gain back the first set of points immediately (or at the end of the action), or after 24 hours? If the former, it would allow dungeons to make the choice that in a difficult or dangerous spot it is worth abandoning a host for those few extra points, while in the case of the latter it would likely only be done if the host got killed or they expected to have plenty of time before the tight situation that they would get the points.

Owrtho

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-17, 12:37 AM
Spawned Stirge

Small (2 points)
Vermin (2 points)
Extra HD x2 (8 points)
Weak x2 (-2 points)
Hideous x2 (-2 points)
Nimble x3 (6 points)
Resolute (1 point)
Mobile (0 points)
Airborne (1 point)
Quick x4 (4 points, fly speed)
Agile Flyer (1 point)
Darksight (1 point)
Blood Drain (4 points, estimated)
Attach (2 points, estimated)

Total Cost = 28 points

Analysis - The stirge. Another one of those beasties that seems to get some bonuses based on it's concept. Which is certainly cool, but it makes emulating them a little harder. This guy is small, so he has less of a hide bonus than his brethren and is a little easier to hit. He moves at the same speed, is a bit stronger, and a little less intelligent (being vermin rather than a magical beast). The Blood Drain is something I envision as being relative to the beasties con score, so it's probably a bit more powerful than that of the stirge. The Attach, conversely, is probably less useful because there aren't going to be any whopping +12 racial modifiers to grapple here. Still, any bit will help and the small stirge has less of a grapple negative to make up. These could be brought down to 25 with broodling, and 21 if they were expendable (giving them 6 hit points like their tiny kin). They're not cheap, but for a foe that's based on draining Constitution they probably shouldn't be. Still, a killer value in my book.


Spawned Impling

Small (2 points)
Humanoid (1 point)
Expendable (-3 points)
Broodling (-1 point)
Hideous (-1 point)
Weak-Willed (-1 point)
Builder (2 points)
Mechanically-Inclined (1 point)
Skilled (Knowledge: Architecture & Craft: Masonry, 1 point)
Darksight (1 point)
Dungeonthrall (3 points)

Total Cost = 5 points

Analysis: Wow. That's maybe a little cheaper than I'd expected. Still, these guys are non-combatants (2 hp and fail all saves, yay!) and have taken just enough penalties to cost less and still be useful. They can assist the dungeon in reforming itself, as well as potentially deal with any traps that happen to need fixing. An advanced version might have another hit die (for more skills, and a higher skill cap), a few inherent bonuses to various necessary skills, and maaaaybe a few more skill points. As a plus, the dungeon can use them as mobile eyes and ears, even taking control of one to get something done itself. How's that suit ya for the old Dungeon Keeper feel?

And with that, sadly, I'm done for tonight. I will address all of your excellent points in the morning/afternoon. Really, I'm brimming with excitement about the feedback and am interested in some of the ideas that've been brought up.

Lix Lorn
2011-05-17, 05:35 AM
I don't know where to even begin with the balance... but the fluff is AWESOME.

Sdonourg
2011-05-17, 06:19 AM
Am I the only on who thinks of Dungeon Man from Earthbound?

Xzoltar
2011-05-17, 11:12 AM
I will follow this project with much interest.

- Tremorsense : No range, but I guess its always active within himself, so all cube count for is Tremorsense ability ?

- How does gaining Form points work, im not sure how to calculate each level gain.

Dungeon Form lvl 1 , Con 14 have 5 Form Points

Dungeon Form lvl 2 , Con 14 have 8 Form Points (3x1+2+3x1) or 10 (3x1+2+3x1+2) or is it 13 (3x1+2+3x2+2) ?

- Seem that a level 1 Dungeon Seed without at least Constitution/Charisma of 14 can't Shape Host as is Initial Host form because he don't have 5 Form points yet. Of course probably not a good idea to be a dungeon seed in the first place...

- Its hard to know what to do, if you keep all your power to your Dungeon form your stronger, but if you take some of the power to form a Host, this Host is either so weak its not worth it or so powerful that the dungeon have no use and can be defeat easly, so im not sure either I dont adventure and send my friends do it for me or I hide my Dungeon form somewhere nobody will ever find it and adventure as my host form (but with no reason for beeing a dungeon seed...)

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-17, 04:30 PM
Thanks for all of the encouragement :smallsmile:


Anyway, I likewise find the class rather interesting, though I agree with some of the questions above. Magic items power should impact how many it needs. Thus a single highly powerful magic item could be able to keep a dungeon seed alive even if it would likely want more for backup.

I agree entirely. I'll address this more in a bit, because I like the tie-in with another idea. Also, potentially considering rituals for dungeons that happen to snag artifact level magic items, to be influenced by their effects and allow the artifact to leak some of it's energy in exchange for a better source of sustenance. So a dungeon with the Eye of Vecna that had conducted the appropriate ritual might turn every Dungeon Heart into a scrying source, give all of it's minions the ability to detect magical sources naturally (at no point cost), and potentially dominate creatures within range of it's scrying eye/dungeon heart.


Another question that is important to look at in regards to traps, minions, & the like, is how powerful do you want the class to actually be at any given level. By this I mean, what CR of encounters should it approximately be able to make. If you intend to keep it at the strength of a normal class, then it should be weaker than the CR corresponding to its level, given that a given CR should be a balanced challenge for 4 characters of that level, while the dungeon seed should only be about a balanced challenge for 1 of the same level.

This is another interesting question. If the dungeon is able to generate level relevant (or slightly lower) encounters inside of itself, and adventure as a (probably lower tier) adventurer, is there an issue that anyone can see there? It really only becomes an issue if the dungeon is able to send itself out on adventures (and I'd considered allowing a bodyguard minion to go with the host form), but otherwise I don't see too much of a problem with the idea given that some of the higher tier classes can easily manage similar effects with a bit of preparation. I suppose that gives me a base-line then, though a particular dungeon could easily invest most of it's points in minions or traps or similar to slant that particular calculation in one direction.


As far as the dungeon being a very open concept..I'm working with that in mind. A Dungeon Seed could just as easily end up a holy temple as a den of vile beings intent on the destruction of all good and fluffy things. I like options. Options are good.

I'll get to the other concerns when I can!

Drynwyn
2011-05-17, 05:59 PM
I LOVE this concept. I especially like the idea of the dungeon-vehicle, which is why I'm providing the following suggested method of making that happen.
Mobile Dungeon
Cost: 2 points (3? 4?) per cube of the dungeon that is currently formed.
Time to form: 1 day
The dungeon has developed wheels, treads, or some other way of moving itself about. It gains a move speed of 60 ft.. However, it must accelerate. I. The first round of movement, it's move speed is only 5 feet. This increases 5 ft each round of movement until it has reached 60 ft. It also cannot turn effectively, and is treated for turning purposes as though it were a flying creature with Clumsy maneuverability.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-17, 06:43 PM
I LOVE this concept. I especially like the idea of the dungeon-vehicle, which is why I'm providing the following suggested method of making that happen.
Mobile Dungeon
Cost: 2 points (3? 4?) per cube of the dungeon that is currently formed.
Time to form: 1 day
The dungeon has developed wheels, treads, or some other way of moving itself about. It gains a move speed of 60 ft.. However, it must accelerate. I. The first round of movement, it's move speed is only 5 feet. This increases 5 ft each round of movement until it has reached 60 ft. It also cannot turn effectively, and is treated for turning purposes as though it were a flying creature with Clumsy maneuverability.

I think a mobile dungeon is at least feat worthy, if not feat-tree worthy :D It's in the (very complicated, much writing to be done) works.

*.*.*.*
2011-05-17, 07:49 PM
Please continue with this class! It took a few readings to finally understand everything, but when I did, I fell in love and even made a character concept :smallbiggrin:

Xzoltar
2011-05-17, 08:05 PM
Im currently redoing my current Cohort using this Class instead, seem quite appropriate to have my bodyguard be the host of my own bank... waiting for more to finish the Cohort and then should be able to test it a little (mostly out-of-combat use)

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-18, 12:40 AM
How does this interact with the Leadership feat?

Well, the Leadership feat would have to be taken with some creative context working and a grain of salt, I think. Do you have your own stronghold as a dungeon? You might think so, but a stronghold typically requires an expenditure of resources, which is why it's worth a bonus. I might make that, instead, have you set aside dungeon space for your followers? If yes, bonus! If no, no bonus! So there's some measure of investment there. Do you have a reputation? As a location, it's not impossible to get a reputation, but it's also harder to develop a working relationship with most creatures..so what kind of reputation are you trying to create? As an impregnable stronghold? Probably going to get a bonus for that. As a deathtrap..yeah, maybe not so much. There should also be some measure of negotiation and revealing of the nature of the dungeon to the followers involved. I've never really liked magically appearing followers.

That said, I don't see why you also couldn't expand the groupings of creatures to some non-standard types. Maybe your followers are a tribe of kobolds, or a group of priests set to turn the dungeon form into a temple for their deity (who is hopefully also your deity). Maybe your cohort is an aboleth with a group of enslaved skum and human slaves as minions. The possibilities should shape to fit your character, and a good DM should see to that I think.


One possible way to help with this is if you allowed a limited amount of ability points to be bought for the host using dungeon points, likely limiting it to physical ability scores & by your actual ability scores. This seems like it might also somewhat make sense, as the host is mostly just a construct, so it should be possible to make it better than it the base (in much the way you can make better minions, even if you can't give it all their bells & whistles).

I do rather like this idea. I'd planned for acquired templates (like draconic, from taking dragon-oriented moltings) to be viable for application to host forms. It'll just take some rethinking of the host form ability to make that happen.


Personally, I think the class would be fun to play in a non-gestalt game & with a little work could function fine without being stuck in dungeon or host mode all the time. Mind it may require adding a few abilities for the host that might need to be specified as only being intended for non-gestalt games, but they likely wouldn't need to be as strong as those of a normal class due to the dungeon part of the class being the main focus (just something that it wouldn't amount to playing a commoner almost).

I can see doing a non-gestalt adaptation of it, sure :)


One possibility would be to have something along the lines of a core which is what needs to be attacked & destroyed to kill the dungeon. This would make the rest of the dungeon somewhat akin to a shell, and prevent things like someone trying to kill it just staying at the entrance breaking the floor and walls till it dies, while also allow a noticeable target for those that would want to kill it but don't know that they need to go after the building. To allow for somewhat more defensibility it would likely work best to allow multiple cores at higher levels with the dungeon seed being able to split up their hp between them.

I like this too, and mentioned Dungeon Hearts in the bit above about artifacts. They'd be a good way to encyst magic items for use or faster eating. I do still think that losing walls should damage the dungeon, but I don't see killing the same floors as doing perpetual damage to it. At some point the dungeon would just reflexively pull itself from those segments, leaving the empty shell behind. Which might work well. I'll let it bubble and boil a bit and see what comes out.


Also, as a side question, when a dungeon decided to abandon a host, does it gain back the first set of points immediately (or at the end of the action), or after 24 hours? If the former, it would allow dungeons to make the choice that in a difficult or dangerous spot it is worth abandoning a host for those few extra points, while in the case of the latter it would likely only be done if the host got killed or they expected to have plenty of time before the tight situation that they would get the points.

I like little risk vs reward situations. I'll alter the rules so that a dungeon that abandons the host gains the first set of points immediately, but that a dungeon whose host dies has to wait for the first day to get them back. That way there's tactical choices to be made.


- Tremorsense : No range, but I guess its always active within himself, so all cube count for is Tremorsense ability ?

Correct. Every cube inside of the dungeon that counts as wall or ground would have tremorsense. Obviously flying creatures bypass this.


- How does gaining Form points work, im not sure how to calculate each level gain.

Dungeon Form lvl 1 , Con 14 have 5 Form Points

Dungeon Form lvl 2 , Con 14 have 8 Form Points (3x1+2+3x1) or 10 (3x1+2+3x1+2) or is it 13 (3x1+2+3x2+2) ?

Let's express it as (3+Ability Modifier)*Dungeon Seed Level. So, 10 points would be correct. I'll add that ability increases or decreases do not work retroactively with this, as otherwise you get a dungeon that's forced to recalculate it's abilities all the time.


- Seem that a level 1 Dungeon Seed without at least Constitution/Charisma of 14 can't Shape Host as is Initial Host form because he don't have 5 Form points yet. Of course probably not a good idea to be a dungeon seed in the first place...

Correct. A wizard without an intelligence of 11 can't cast spells either. To some extent your character should be good at what they do. Unless you're making suboptimal characters. Which is just weird.

That said, I'm going to rework the Shape Host Form ability to bring it in line with the ideas for the Shape Minions ability. I may even merge them, allowing minions right off the bat at level 1.


- Its hard to know what to do, if you keep all your power to your Dungeon form your stronger, but if you take some of the power to form a Host, this Host is either so weak its not worth it or so powerful that the dungeon have no use and can be defeat easly, so im not sure either I dont adventure and send my friends do it for me or I hide my Dungeon form somewhere nobody will ever find it and adventure as my host form (but with no reason for beeing a dungeon seed...)

The answer to these questions is: yes. To all of them. Hide your dungeon and send out your host. It'll be less of an issue with the host shape-able as a special sort of minion, but points invested are still points invested.

Necroticplague
2011-05-18, 08:52 AM
A little question, does picking Haunted Citadel add the ambient sorceries, or allow to to select them as ambient sorceries? For example, let's say I'm a 5th level dungeon who really wants to go for that "spooky graveyard" feel. As a result, my ambient sorceries are ghost sound and obscuring mist. I pick haunted citadel as my molting. Does my ambient sorceries look like this:
Ghost Sound
Obscuring Mist
Animate Dead
Fear
Gentle Repose

or this:
Ghost Sound
Obscuring Mist

and I can select Animate Dead when I reach Level 6.

If it's the first, that makes your moltings the largest source of ambient sorceries, while the later makes it almost irrelevant (you would have to waste 6 levels worth of sorceries to get those 3 options).

Also, is it intentional that not just minions and self animated undead benefit from the turn resistance? Technically, even if a necropolitan adventurer walked in, they would benefit as much as your undead minions do from the turn resistance.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-18, 09:07 AM
A little question, does picking Haunted Citadel add the ambient sorceries, or allow to to select them as ambient sorceries?

Also, is it intentional that not just minions and self animated undead benefit from the turn resistance? Technically, even if a necropolitan adventurer walked in, they would benefit as much as your undead minions do from the turn resistance.

It adds directly to the ambient sorceries you can manifest, so the moltings are going to be responsible for a great number of the effects that can be created. Though, keep in mind that the ability is still very much under construction.

That is, actually, intentional. And the reasoning for it is to allow undead acquired as a result of abilities other than ambient sorceries and minion creation to gain the same benefit. Otherwise, class abilities that allow direct raising of undead or empower them would have no use for the ability. Also, it means that your dungeon is going to attract undead (a point for the leadership feat) moreso than other creatures, because it protects them more than other places. It may provide a potential benefit for adventurers, but I don't expect that to be necessarily overwhelming.


edit - I get the feeling I am basically going to have to rewrite the Dungeon Form ability to add in all of the changes. That's going to take a bit. The same will probably happen with some/most of the minion stuff, as well as a ton of additions there. Since I am specifically working with minions at the moment, if you folks wouldn't mind either suggesting abilities for me to add (troglodyte stench? carrion crawler paralyzation?), evaluate costs and Challenge Ratings, and in general chime in with things related to that, it'd be appreciated.

*.*.*.*
2011-05-18, 03:10 PM
edit - I get the feeling I am basically going to have to rewrite the Dungeon Form ability to add in all of the changes. That's going to take a bit. The same will probably happen with some/most of the minion stuff, as well as a ton of additions there. Since I am specifically working with minions at the moment, if you folks wouldn't mind either suggesting abilities for me to add (troglodyte stench? carrion crawler paralyzation?), evaluate costs and Challenge Ratings, and in general chime in with things related to that, it'd be appreciated.

Why not create a formula for the cost of special abilities? It won't always be balanced, but it would be easier than creating a cost for every special ability in the game. I'd personally base it off CR of the original monster or the save. Maybe make a formula for any ability that replicates spells?

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-18, 04:04 PM
Why not create a formula for the cost of special abilities? It won't always be balanced, but it would be easier than creating a cost for every special ability in the game. I'd personally base it off CR of the original monster or the save. Maybe make a formula for any ability that replicates spells?

I'd like to give a bit of a boundary for the things that can be taken. There are monsters that are not written with my noble goals in mind (such a shame!), and as such are going to have more powerful abilities than is appropriate for their level. It's not even that I'm unsure of this happening, I know it will. Especially with the ability to pick and choose.

Also, some abilities deserve to come later on during the life cycle of the Dungeon Seed. And some should only be gained by minions of Seeds that have molted in a specific way. That way those choices are meaningful and have an impact.

Owrtho
2011-05-18, 07:20 PM
There are however, certain more generic ability types that could use a formula & be fine. For example any type of energy ability for which you can have versions with various energies. You could create some for of base cost for energies (such as the basic common ones counting as 1, while more powerful or harder to negate ones counting as more), then have actual abilities that would make use of an energy type reference how the energy cost is factored in (just add it on, multiply it by something & add it, if the ability can be scaled to more powerful forms, is the energy factored into the cost increase, etc.).
As an example of something with multiple factors, breath weapons.
Factors are energy type, cool down, damage, range (could add save DC, but we'll assume it's Con based like most breath weapons).
For cool down, you have the costs:
Once per day: 0
1 minute: 1
2d4 rounds: 2
1d8 rounds: 2.5
1d6 rounds: 3
1d4 rounds: 3.5

Range has the costs: 1 per 10 feet line or 1 per 5 feet cone

Damage has the costs:
1d4: 1
1d6: 1.5
1d8: 2
Xd6 (where X is greater than or equal to 2): 1.5X

Final equation: energy + range + (cool down * damage) rounded up

Mind these numbers are completely theoretical as I'm not familiar enough with your balancing of costs.
Such a method could also be applied to such abilities as SR, energy resistance, DR, ability or level damage/drain when just as its own attack, along with other abilities that can be of varying power but aren't inherently tied to a creatures HD or CR in power.

Owrtho

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-19, 02:14 PM
Dungeon Form has been changed, somewhat. I like the new changes. I need to make some alterations to Shape Feature, but this is a good start.

Let's talk cost of living. Literally. I want the dungeon to require a significant amount of magical goods, and I want that to increase exponentially because wealth becomes very meh after a point. Does a flat 50% of the Character Wealth work? I need some ideas here.

Xzoltar
2011-05-19, 09:25 PM
The change to Dungeonform is more Form Points (x5 instead of x3) any other change ? (beside undetermined amount)

I think the Hardness should be equal to your Class level.

50% of Character Wealth or 50% of what a typical Character of this level is supopsed to have ? Because one can take Vow of Poverty and thus cost nothing to remain alive.

Another reason I dont like the half your character wealth and would prefer a fixed amount per day/months/years instead is that if I dont gain level I can survive 100 years without having to feed more. A Dungeon Seed that level a lot will have to pay each level up to feed...

I know the Living Construct dont have to eat or drink so that could just mean its the cost of improvement, but why charge this for the dungeon seed when you have other character that dont have to pay for anything more than new spells in their spellbook. You can't say its because that represent the cost of their magic items, because you still need to have Magical Items to equip your Host, so you have a weaker host that have at best half the gear of the rest of the party, dosent really seem like a balance factor...

DoomHat
2011-05-19, 10:18 PM
...So, I can play medieval GLaDOS?

Owrtho
2011-05-19, 11:52 PM
The change to Dungeonform is more Form Points (x5 instead of x3) any other change ? (beside undetermined amount)

He also added dungeon hearts, and a section mentioning how many magic items are required to survive (even if the value is undetermined) that I can tell off hand.


50% of Character Wealth or 50% of what a typical Character of this level is supopsed to have ? Because one can take Vow of Poverty and thus cost nothing to remain alive.

Another reason I dont like the half your character wealth and would prefer a fixed amount per day/months/years instead is that if I dont gain level I can survive 100 years without having to feed more. A Dungeon Seed that level a lot will have to pay each level up to feed...

I know the Living Construct dont have to eat or drink so that could just mean its the cost of improvement, but why charge this for the dungeon seed when you have other character that dont have to pay for anything more than new spells in their spellbook. You can't say its because that represent the cost of their magic items, because you still need to have Magical Items to equip your Host, so you have a weaker host that have at best half the gear of the rest of the party, dosent really seem like a balance factor...

I expect he means what the typical character is expected to have.

I'd also point out that dungeon seeds never actually use up the magic items they're feeding on, and as such it only needs to get more magic items if it requires more to live than it did previously. If the amount was fixed and unaffected by level, it would need to be low enough for a level 1 character to afford it, and thereafter become meaningless as the dungeon seed would never need to accumulate any more.

As for why they need to eat more if they level as opposed to if they age when normal characters don't need to eat more, the level of a dungeon seed is indicative of its growth. A 100 year old level 1 dungeon seed can't get any bigger than 1 1 year old level 1 dungeon seed, while a 1 year old dungeon seed with more than one level can be noticeably larger. Most characters don't increase in size by levelling, so don't require more food. The dungeon seed does, so it does require more food.

As for the host, it isn't the main point of the class. Sure your host is weaker than the rest of the party. But the rest of the party doesn't have a controllable fortress off somewhere by nature of their class levels. Nor do they automatically revive there after a few days when killed. Sure your host may be weaker, but in its case death is a mere nuisance incurring nothing more than annoyance, delays, and travel costs.

Owrtho

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-20, 12:14 AM
I don't even know why I need to explain things anymore when I have Owrtho here. Thank you so incredibly much for your support and input sir/madam.

I've added the values now. This is..conservative, but it does provide an option for someone who wants to focus on their dungeon-self and reap the benefits of hoarding magic items.

NineThePuma
2011-05-20, 01:10 AM
EDIT: Double post. Accidental. >.<

NineThePuma
2011-05-20, 01:11 AM
I haven't read the class, but I love the concept.

What happens if I gestalt this with Ozodrin? Do I get to make tentacles out of the walls? Teleport short distances? Etc?

Lix Lorn
2011-05-20, 04:19 AM
What happens if you gestalt this with ozodrin? The answer is simple, honey.

You win. :smalltongue:

Problem. At first level, how can you afford a magic item?

Volthawk
2011-05-20, 04:24 AM
What happens if you gestalt this with ozodrin? The answer is simple, honey.

You win. :smalltongue:

Problem. At first level, how can you afford a magic item?

There are cheap magic items (just looking at the SRD, since I'm AFB, there's anchor tokens and universal solvent for 50gp, and Elixir of love and Unguent of Timelessness for 150gp, as well as all those potions for 50gp.) Given how the dungeon seed gets an average starting wealth of 250gp, and a minimum of 100gp, he can afford stuff.

NineThePuma
2011-05-20, 04:25 AM
You win. :smalltongue:

... Remind me to stat out an Ozodrin//Dungeon-Seed 20 and see what it looks like.

I'll refer to it as "The Crawler" and have it be an entity from the Far Realms that passed over to the Astral Plane. Somehow.

Lix Lorn
2011-05-20, 04:29 AM
There are cheap magic items (just looking at the SRD, since I'm AFB, there's anchor tokens and universal solvent for 50gp, and Elixir of love and Unguent of Timelessness for 150gp, as well as all those potions for 50gp.) Given how the dungeon seed gets an average starting wealth of 250gp, and a minimum of 100gp, he can afford stuff.
...point. I was thinking of good magic items, but that kinda stuff would work. :smallbiggrin:

Also, Nine, AWESOME.

Necroticplague
2011-05-20, 05:09 AM
I haven't read the class, but I love the concept.

What happens if I gestalt this with Ozodrin? Do I get to make tentacles out of the walls? Teleport short distances? Etc?

Well, it makes the shifting augment more useful, the answer would appear to be "yes, but they're rooted to the square, unless shifting" and "only into empty space." Also, you could use points from one of them to fuel the other's features, since they technically run on the same thing (form points). You would also save form points later, once you gain access to the stomach feature (a mere 9 form points give's you 32 cubes of stomach to work with(not counting the primary stomach)).

Xzoltar
2011-05-20, 08:23 AM
So you basicly sustain yourself from energy immiting from Magic Items, but they are not consummed in the process, I thought it was something similar to Energy Transformation Field. That's mean if I want I can go out adventure with all my magic items and later come back and put them back in my treasure vault ? Mean your better to keep good magic itme than stack those not useful.

How do you reform a new Heart if it is destroy ?

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-20, 03:00 PM
Okay, a new mechanic with walls has been added and Shape Dungeon Heart has been added to the Shape Features ability. Additionally, I am working on augments for the features presented, please feel free to suggest more if you happen to think any up. I already know extra trap damage is going in, as an example.

Xzoltar
2011-05-20, 03:58 PM
Shape Dungeon Heart: So costing 2 Form Pts per level mean we are back to 3 x Dungeon Seed level for the amount of point we can use. Why not let it cost no point and stay at 3 x DS lvl as you had it before ? Maybe there's a reason I didnt notice. Taking 4 days mean unless you have at least a Constitution or Charisma of 18 you won't be able to reform your heart, that's not a problem as usally when your dead your not supposed to come back anyway.

I dont mind that you recover your Form points at a slow rate after you restore your destroyed heart, howeer at higher level this may put the party on hold a certain time as it could take more than 1 month to recover your dungeon. For sure you can still adventure with your Host, but if you took the Dungeon Seed level normally its also because you want to use your dungeon. Without this mechanic however I dont see how this would be balanced as you never die (unless someone stay in your dungeon and destroy everything everday), so that may be the way to go, but having to say "Ok we wait 1 month and then we're back adventuring" is not fun for the player's and not fun for the DM too.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-20, 04:03 PM
Shape Dungeon Heart: So costing 2 Form Pts per level mean we are back to 3 x Dungeon Seed level for the amount of point we can use. Why not let it cost no point and stay at 3 x DS lvl as you had it before ? Maybe there's a reason I didnt notice. Taking 4 days mean unless you have at least a Constitution or Charisma of 18 you won't be able to reform your heart, that's not a problem as usally when your dead your not supposed to come back anyway.


Special: The points invested into the Dungeon Heart are returned as soon as it has finished shaping, unlike most shapings.

Though the point about the days is a valid point worth considering. I'd like to work something else in there, but I'm not sure yet how to make that work.



I dont mind that you recover your Form points at a slow rate after you restore your destroyed heart, howeer at higher level this may put the party on hold a certain time as it could take more than 1 month to recover your dungeon. For sure you can still adventure with your Host, but if you took the Dungeon Seed level normally its also because you want to use your dungeon. Without this mechanic however I dont see how this would be balanced as you never die (unless someone stay in your dungeon and destroy everything everday), so that may be the way to go, but having to say "Ok we wait 1 month and then we're back adventuring" is not fun for the player's and not fun for the DM too.

Also valid. I'll take some time to think about this.

Owrtho
2011-05-20, 05:21 PM
...that's not a problem as usally when your dead your not supposed to come back anyway.

I'd also point out that having your dungeon heart destroyed isn't the same as being killed. While it contains most of your hit points, you may also have some spread through your various features and your host. Thus you could still have health left once your heart is destroyed, which is where this comes into play. If you don't have any health left when the dungeon heart is destroyed, your just dead and wouldn't have the chance to reform it.

Owrtho

Tvtyrant
2011-05-21, 02:55 AM
This sounds like a good way to make a dungeon keep exactly equal to a party; have a few dozen of them level as the party does and die when they are defeated. Sorta like meta-monster class. I built a General class once that was supposed to do this for organizations; it was a "leader" with a cohort and followers, with the amount and level of followers being set to make a series of encounters of appropriate CR for the party. Sorta like Super-Leadership but as a class.

NineThePuma
2011-05-21, 03:46 AM
-awesome concept-

Why is it that I wanna see this on the boards some time? x3

Tvtyrant
2011-05-21, 01:29 PM
Why is it that I wanna see this on the boards some time? x3

I will try; I made that class when I was just getting into DMing and didn't know much about balance.

Ziegander
2011-05-21, 06:54 PM
This is a fascinating concept that really makes one think. As I've been musing on it, I've come up with my own sort of take on the mechanics. Of course, given the unusual subject matter, my thoughts are still a work in progress.

The basic idea is that the dungeon and the host do not split ability scores or hit points, they simply share them. So, If a 5th level Dungeon Seed has Str 10 Dex 8 Con 18 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 16, both the host and the dungeon have those ability scores. Also, let's say that same Dungeon Seed has 60hp, if the host loses 5 hit points, so does the dungeon. They share.

From there I had the idea that any items in possession of the host form count toward items needed to feed the dungeon form. So the host can go off adventuring, carrying magical weapons and gear, and these possessions continue to feed the dungeon as if they were just laying around in the dungeon.

Features formed by the Dungeon Seed (by virtue of having been created via Form Points) have hit point values of their own dependent on the materials they are made of, however, destroying them deals damage to the Dungeon Seed based on the number of Form Points spent to create the structure or object. In this way, hammering on a wall does not directly damage the Dungeon Seed, but destroying the wall, breaking clutter, killing a minion, etc, does.

The total enhancement value of weapons and armors possessed by the Dungeon Seed (including any that simply lie around the dungeon form or any that are carried by the host form) bolster the offensive and defensive capacity of any features, minion, traps, etc formed within the dungeon (to some maximum value based on class level). This can grant enhancement bonuses to attack and damage rolls when appropriate, enhancement bonuses to AC when appropriate, and even bonuses to hardness and/or hit points when appropriate.

I don't have any concrete and fully-realized mechanical write up of class features or anything, but the final goal of my ramblings would be to make the class playable outside of a gestalt campaign, where the adventuring host form is comparable in power and versatility to a Tier 2 or 3 character by virtue of having his excellent dungeon form.

YouLostMe
2011-05-21, 07:35 PM
As usual, I find myself agreeing with Ziegander here.

The splitting of ability scores is painful, as it makes both the dungeon and the host replica nearly useless. So sharing scores and HP is better.

The concept for the host posessing weapons = the dungeon posessing weapons is also excellent, because then players can use their full WBL without having to worry about possibly ganking their dungeon via some NPC walking in the door and picking up the only piece of treasure around (this is only a danger at low levels, of course, but it's still a danger).

Sharing HP for all forms created is very nice, though I think rubble should come for free.

... and now I'm thinking about howl's moving castle and communities of dryads with interconnected giant underground caverns... -*explodes*-

jojolagger
2011-05-22, 02:54 AM
First off, This Class is Awesome.

Second, what happens when a dungeon gets an artifact?

Third, Castle Heterodyne. (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20090313)

Ursus the Grim
2011-05-22, 08:34 AM
If you happen to succumb to peer pressure and buff the shape host, I would suggest simply providing a static penalty to the host's ability scores versus the dungeon's. Or vice-versa. Thus, with 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, you could have one form rest at, say 13, 12, 11, 10, 8, 6 and the other at the base set. This means there is still some investment and risk in sending out a host, but nothing that would make him entirely useless without reducing the dungeon to a cripple.

I don't know how feasible this would be for a non-gestalt game, but that wasn't your intention.

If you don't mind, I'm going to make this an NPC in a coming adventure. Perfect justification for why these monsters differ from what the metagamers expect, and for why there are piles of loot just hanging around. And for why the dungeon seems intent on killing them. :D

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-23, 10:29 AM
I think the Hardness should be equal to your Class level.

I wanted to address this one specifically. There are plenty of ways to alter and enhance the dungeon when it comes to defensibility. The walls end up, at level 20, with a hardness of 15 which is basically mithril. It would be incredibly short-sighted of me to suggest that every dungeon isn't going to get a hardening spell cast on their walls as soon as they are able. And that's only one spell, to say nothing of potential artificer infusions and similar tricks to make them work better.

Starting with a hardness of 1 is..basically glass. That would be saying that the dungeon walls are as hard as a sheet of standard glass, and could be shattered with a sufficiently strong punch. And I'm not sure I can get behind that.


...So, I can play medieval GLaDOS?

Er, basically, yes.



Stuff!


Some of these ideas are, I think, pretty good. The maintaining of host and dungeon ability scores though.. I think we're looking back at the breaking of the action economy again with that. And, given that doing so is a higher tier of breaking the game, I'd really prefer to avoid that.

I like the idea of doing damage equal to form points, however minions ought to be verboten when it comes to that. They are intended to get hurt and potentially die. That's their purpose. It also seems like a replacement for the dungeon having it's hit points spread amongst the various things that make it up, which is a concept that I like that also serves to make the dungeon as a whole harder to kill (even if I haven't thought up an elegant means to make that work).

Magic Items being fed on through the host? Sure, no problems there as long as they are items in direct contact with the host. Providing benefits to the dungeon as a whole? Not so much. The host is an extrusion of the dungeon in my mind, not the focus or even main portion of the class but a nice little side benefit. Like slow fall for monks. There are plenty of other ways the dungeon is going to be able to get bonuses (Mass Magic Weapon, as an example), so needing to rely on the crutch of armor and weapons put on a human form seems less intuitive and rather contrary to the point of the class.


Second, what happens when a dungeon gets an artifact?

I think I mentioned rituals, previously, wherein a dungeon could encyst the artifact and use it's influence to improve itself. Check for the Eye of Vecna in my earlier posts. I think it's a good idea, and a worthy goal for a Dungeon to have.

I'll get to more material later today.

(apologies if any of this comes off poorly, it's morning and I am always less diplomatic in the morning. It's a flaw, I know, but I got a really sweet feat out of it!)

jojolagger
2011-05-23, 01:39 PM
I wanted to address this one specifically. There are plenty of ways to alter and enhance the dungeon when it comes to defensibility. The walls end up, at level 20, with a hardness of 15 which is basically mithril. It would be incredibly short-sighted of me to suggest that every dungeon isn't going to get a hardening spell cast on their walls as soon as they are able. And that's only one spell, to say nothing of potential artificer infusions and similar tricks to make them work better.

Starting with a hardness of 1 is..basically glass. That would be saying that the dungeon walls are as hard as a sheet of standard glass, and could be shattered with a sufficiently strong punch. And I'm not sure I can get behind that.
Could I Suggest that Hardness starts at 5, and progresses at the speed of a 3/4 attack bonus? Just say hardness is 5 more than the dungeon hearts BAB from this class.
Starts at wood, by level 4 it's stone, at level 7 it's iron, at level 14 it's mithral, and at level 20 it's adamantine.


I think I mentioned rituals, previously, wherein a dungeon could encyst the artifact and use it's influence to improve itself. Check for the Eye of Vecna in my earlier posts. I think it's a good idea, and a worthy goal for a Dungeon to have.
Something like having an Artifact room? a special room designed to draw power from the artifact.
"Once the artifact is placed into the artifact room, a week long ritual of attunment begins. Once the ritual is finished, the Dungeon gains...."

Also, the wording for from points seems very confusing. It seems that first level gives 5+Mod Points, then the second level gives 10+Mod more points (total 15+(2xMod)), and so on.

Ziegander
2011-05-23, 02:08 PM
The maintaining of host and dungeon ability scores though.. I think we're looking back at the breaking of the action economy again with that. And, given that doing so is a higher tier of breaking the game, I'd really prefer to avoid that.

Perhaps we are misunderstanding each other, but I'm very confused as to how you concluded that the host and the dungeon sharing ability scores and hit points somehow breaks the action economy. :smalleek:


I like the idea of doing damage equal to form points, however minions ought to be verboten when it comes to that. They are intended to get hurt and potentially die. That's their purpose.

Well, 1) it doesn't have to be damage = to form points. Just some amount of damage is dealt to the dungeon (and by extension to the host) determined by the form points. 2) I mistakenly thought that Shape Minions worked similarly to Shape Features. Still, I think Shape Minions, as written, is unnecessarily convoluted, and could be improved. If you are investing a part of yourself to build these minions it stands to reason that when they die it should injure you in some way. It's important for intuitive mechanics to make sure that class features which are similar in name and theme also use similar resolution mechanics.

As it stands, you would achieve a remarkably similar effect by simply adding the Summon Monster I-IX line to the Dungeon Seed's spell list and allowing it to work with Ambient Sorceries (which I would recommend doing anyway). In that light, we really should come up with a new way to handle Shape Minions.


It also seems like a replacement for the dungeon having it's hit points spread amongst the various things that make it up, which is a concept that I like that also serves to make the dungeon as a whole harder to kill (even if I haven't thought up an elegant means to make that work).

Definitely. This way, you can still kill the dungeon by destroying everything (or most things maybe) in it, but you can't kill the dungeon by beating on one wall.


Magic Items being fed on through the host? Sure, no problems there as long as they are items in direct contact with the host. Providing benefits to the dungeon as a whole? Not so much. The host is an extrusion of the dungeon in my mind, not the focus or even main portion of the class but a nice little side benefit. Like slow fall for monks. There are plenty of other ways the dungeon is going to be able to get bonuses (Mass Magic Weapon, as an example), so needing to rely on the crutch of armor and weapons put on a human form seems less intuitive and rather contrary to the point of the class.

Well, if you're sticking to those guns, then I guess this is where our philosophies will diverge, and that's fine. To me, a PC is an adventurer, and so I would attempt to build from this class an adventurer that is also a dungeon. Right now, the class looks like quite the reverse: an "NPC" dungeon with a very limited capacity to adventure.

Lix Lorn
2011-05-23, 02:12 PM
If I were to use this class, I'd probably ignore the fluff and have the 'host' be the real character and the dungeon be some kind of magical extension of themself, rather than vice versa.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-23, 02:25 PM
As it stands, you would achieve a remarkably similar effect by simply adding the Summon Monster I-IX line to the Dungeon Seed's spell list and allowing it to work with Ambient Sorceries (which I would recommend doing anyway). In that light, we really should come up with a new way to handle Shape Minions.


The current mechanics for Shape Minions certainly need to be less convoluted. At the same time, I'd like for a dungeon to shape creatures that are inherently unique to that dungeon. While picking monsters from a list is certainly a viable means to get that done (and, by the by, Summon Monster totally is going on the Ambient Sorceries list), it's also not quite as interesting as some of those that a player can make.

To expand a little on my ideas for Shape Minions, I'd intended to allow templates (at a recurring cost for each hit die), NPC classes (replacing the current cost of the minion's hit dice for a standard one, depending on the class), and such. Later, the Shape Greater Minions would allow some of the more esoteric and powerful abilities, as well as access to more powerful templates and such. As it is, I think the minion system is moving toward well balanced even if it is a bit complicated.

That said, if you have some ideas for a means of working this (starting out with purchasable 'base' minions? Stating out point costs for creatures from the Monstrous Manual?) I'm more than happy to entertain them. As long as it isn't 'scrap the options, pick from a summon list. :smallbiggrin:

Tvtyrant
2011-05-23, 02:49 PM
Why don't you just let it make Astral Constructs? Then you can make just about any archtype you want, including Warlocks and psuedocasters.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-23, 03:20 PM
I was thinking about stealing pretty heavily from that list. It might form the basis for the minion section, wherein it becomes "Pick an ability from table B, or two from table A". But that also precludes some of the later cool options for taking a nature oriented dungeon, or a religiously oriented dungeon, or an undead themed dungeon without doing some heavy revisions as it is.

ocel
2011-05-23, 04:26 PM
I have some Fluff/mechanical suggestions to bring to your attention: The title of shape features & minions could be replaced with Furnishings & symbiosis. In addition these features and augments could be divided into a similar structural level progression, for example Wall, Floor, Door, simple machines, complex machines, accommodations, sanctuaries, atmosphere, & locomotion, each having a specific trap type; augments are the usual modifications to said feature, ectr.

Ziegander
2011-05-23, 08:00 PM
I'm beginning to have the inkling of an idea to replace or supplement shape minions. I have no crunch yet, but the concept revolves around a Sympathy-type effect, somewhat like the spell. Basically, the dungeon draws in nearby creatures to inhabit it.

Astral Construct is certainly another good idea to base the mechanics on.

As far as templates and other level adjusting things, may I suggest something along the lines of Metaminion feats? For example:

Lolth-Blooded Minion [Metaminion]
Prerequisite: Shape Minion 2HD
Benefit: When you shape a minion, you may choose to forgo 1 HD to grant the shaped minion the benefits of the Lolth-Touched template.

Epsilon Rose
2011-05-24, 02:42 AM
Snip about sharing abilities.

I'd like to throw my vote in for this suggestion as well. I don't think you need to be quite so worried about breaking action economy as you are. For starters it's never going to be worse than the cohort you get from leadership or any of it's variants, and in many ways it's going to be allot less relevant since 1) the dungeon can't move anywhere near as easily as a normal being (unless you have some sort of sky fortress or teleporting dungeon [which would make for an awesome base, you should make moltings that go in those directions]) and 2) the dungeon doesn't have fine manipulators or many things that it can do with it's rounds (though you keep saying that will change [and I can definitely think of some dungeon types where that would be very untrue]).

Also, I'd like to make a suggestion for the minions thing;
Why not break it into two types of minion, generals who are unique to the dungeon, have a telepathic link to it and are built off some variant of astral construct or the PF summoner's Eidolons and minions that are created in summoning rooms that serve as spawn points using summon monster (with the possible addition of natures ally, planner binding or specifically added monsters based on what path they go down). The generals would be unable to leave the dungeon and would deal damage to the dungeon when they died but would serve it directly and help coordinate the minions. Conversely the minions would serve as cannon-fodder and variety; the dungeon wouldn't take damage from there deaths, but also wouldn't have any direct control over them.

It's also worth noting that the Generals are meant to be between the host and the minions in power and should be correspondingly expensive so that there's only one or two at any given time.

radmelon
2011-05-24, 09:24 AM
The current mechanics for Shape Minions certainly need to be less convoluted. At the same time, I'd like for a dungeon to shape creatures that are inherently unique to that dungeon. While picking monsters from a list is certainly a viable means to get that done (and, by the by, Summon Monster totally is going on the Ambient Sorceries list), it's also not quite as interesting as some of those that a player can make.

To expand a little on my ideas for Shape Minions, I'd intended to allow templates (at a recurring cost for each hit die), NPC classes (replacing the current cost of the minion's hit dice for a standard one, depending on the class), and such. Later, the Shape Greater Minions would allow some of the more esoteric and powerful abilities, as well as access to more powerful templates and such. As it is, I think the minion system is moving toward well balanced even if it is a bit complicated.

That said, if you have some ideas for a means of working this (starting out with purchasable 'base' minions? Stating out point costs for creatures from the Monstrous Manual?) I'm more than happy to entertain them. As long as it isn't 'scrap the options, pick from a summon list. :smallbiggrin:

I myself like how the minions currently work ,I think it allows for a nice level of customization. Just making stock mooks would not be nearly as fun.

radmelon
2011-05-29, 07:27 PM
Is this still being worked on? :smallconfused:

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-29, 08:55 PM
Yes, but slowly. Sorry for the delays. I should have something to put up/alter tomorrow maybe.

I am putting together the first minion list for review tonight, as well as potentials for other molting additions.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-29, 09:21 PM
The initial simplified minion list looks like this -

Deep Bat (Night Hunter)
Giant Ant (Worker)
Darkmantle
Dire Rat
Lizardfolk (Poison Dusk)
Lashemoi
Shrieker
Formian Worker
Fetid Fungus
Mongrelfolk
Troglodyte
Stirge
Giant Fire Beetle
Medium Monstrous Centipede
Medium Monstrous Scorpion
Medium Monstrous Spider
Medium Viper
Changeling

These are all 1 point minions. Other creatures being considered are these:

Crested Felldrake
Firenewt
Forestkith Goblin
Human
Elf
Dwarf
Half-Orc
Gnome
Halfling
Goblin
Orc
Minor Flame Snake
Grimlock
Gnoll
Ixitxachitl (Average)
Jaebrin
Kenku
Krenshar
Lizardfolk
Locathah
Shadar-Kai
Shadow Asp
Tirbana Eyewing
Whitespawn Hordeling

Of those, anything that creates spawn loses that ability. I am tempted to suggest that any of the standard humanoid races are actually changelings, and that changelings are limited to choosing one humanoid race to emulate when shaped. Anything too different (lizardfolk, locathah, trogs, etc.) would be an actual selection.

The following are lists I am working on for the various moltings, additional creatures that can be summoned.

Construct
Animated Object (Tiny), Animated Object (Small), Clockroach, Clockwork Mender, Warforged, Warforged Scout

Nature
Myconid (Average Worker), Myconid (Junior Worker), Petal, Hybsil, Grig, Nixie

Magical
Eyeball Beholderkin, Small Elementals, Howler Wasp, Elemental Planetouched, Pseudodragon

Undead
Crawling Claw, Ghoul, [Skeleton], [Zombie]

Good Guys
[Celestial], Aasimar

Bad Guys
[Fiendish], Kython Broodling, Tiefling

Weird Guys
[Pseudonatural], Kaorti, Mindshredder Larva

Templates at these levels can be added free of charge, but those that get templates lose some other sort of summon or -have- to add the template (I am looking at you, celestial/fiendish/pseudonatural templates). The clockwork ones are fairly strong, and they may be limited to only summoning constructs (possibly giving them a template to make their other minions living constructs?).

All of these guys should be CR 0-1, where 0 is the fractional challenge rating. And none of them should have more than 2 HD at this point. If anyone has any suggestions as to other monsters or criticisms on this list, I'd be happy to hear it. I am working off of the Master Template List and the D&D Monster Finder at this point, though I notice that it does not include all sources.

radmelon
2011-05-29, 09:56 PM
You're actually going with the simplified version of the monsters?:smallconfused: I really liked the customization afforded by the old one, it allowed the player (or DM) to make their minions however they want, and maybe come up with original ideas.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-29, 09:58 PM
You're actually going with the simplified version of the monsters?:smallconfused: I really liked the customization afforded by the old one, it allowed the player (or DM) to make their minions however they want, and maybe come up with original ideas.

Hah! No, that'd be far too simple for me.

I am doing both versions.

I want to get the simplified list down, then I am going back and reworking the first one I offered. The simplified version will be offered as an alternate class feature or some such, for folks who want to deal with less complexity. Also, this gives me an excellent baseline on abilities to suggest for the first minions. Please, keep the suggestions coming!

radmelon
2011-05-29, 10:11 PM
Hah! No, that'd be far too simple for me.

I am doing both versions.

I want to get the simplified list down, then I am going back and reworking the first one I offered. The simplified version will be offered as an alternate class feature or some such, for folks who want to deal with less complexity. Also, this gives me an excellent baseline on abilities to suggest for the first minions. Please, keep the suggestions coming!

A good plan. I think that that will work well.

jojolagger
2011-05-29, 10:30 PM
Hah! No, that'd be far too simple for me.

I am doing both versions.

I want to get the simplified list down, then I am going back and reworking the first one I offered. The simplified version will be offered as an alternate class feature or some such, for folks who want to deal with less complexity. Also, this gives me an excellent baseline on abilities to suggest for the first minions. Please, keep the suggestions coming!
Do whatever is fastest first, and then start adding the other system.

Hurry up and finish the class so I can run the game I'm planning. (Once it's finished up to about level 4, I can start.)

radmelon
2011-05-29, 10:53 PM
Do whatever is fastest first, and then start adding the other system.

Hurry up and finish the class so I can run the game I'm planning. (Once it's finished up to about level 4, I can start.)

I want to hear ALL about this. You know how to reach me.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-29, 11:09 PM
Any playtest info or insight you folks can offer would be incredibly appreciated, of course. I'll see what I can do about speeding up at least the first few levels.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-30, 03:15 PM
Miscellaneous Augments have been updated, but not formatted. That's going to be the initial list unless anyone can give me some new ideas. I'll work on getting in the first few templates, NPC classes, and Host Form stuff done tonight, as well as reformatting the whole thing for easier reading/comprehension.

Xzoltar
2011-05-30, 05:54 PM
Last session I had planned to use it, but I didnt had enough crunch to do something past level 2, so im also waiting on at least level 6 to playtest this beast !

Seem may spend too much time doing the minions while you could flesh the rest and then go back to stat minions and Molting. Because ability like Something! or Class Ability dosent help that much...

But still do it your way, if you have more idea for minions than that's still fine.

ClockworkCrow
2011-05-30, 09:48 PM
Okay, minion rules are in and have been reformatted for ease of reading/comprehension. The first post is now over the character count for the boards, so I'm moving on to the next one. If this keeps on being this large, I may have to create a new thread just to consolidate all of the appropriate info.

Changes -
Hosts now have the full hit points and stats of the Dungeon. However, to counterbalance this, controlling a host uses the Dungeon's actions normally. You want to move the host? You use a move action as both host and dungeon. Bam. No Action Economy Breaking. I may offer a feat, for those so interested, that moves the Dungeon Heart into the host. That way the trade-off for having a form moves to the Host Form being mostly responsible for survival.

Some of the minion costs have been changed, and they have been alphabetized where possible and reasonable (I think the only exception was the proficiencies for weapons and armor).

I am going to make walls and doors and traps features that can be altered (very similar to the Ozodrin features I think, based on suggestions from Ocel), however instead of form points the Dungeon will invest HP into these features to customize them. There are simply not enough Form Points to cover all of the tiny things you can add to a structure, and I am reluctant to add more. Want a lock on that door? Invest 1 hp. Is it a secret door? 2 hp. If the door breaks, you lose those hp, like taking damage! Same with walls and similar (which is a nice trade off, given the Hardened Walls ability. Drop hp into walls, they get harder but you take damage if they're destroyed).

jojolagger
2011-05-31, 01:11 AM
I am going to make walls and doors and traps features that can be altered (very similar to the Ozodrin features I think, based on suggestions from Ocel), however instead of form points the Dungeon will invest HP into these features to customize them. There are simply not enough Form Points to cover all of the tiny things you can add to a structure, and I am reluctant to add more. Want a lock on that door? Invest 1 hp. Is it a secret door? 2 hp. If the door breaks, you lose those hp, like taking damage! Same with walls and similar (which is a nice trade off, given the Hardened Walls ability. Drop hp into walls, they get harder but you take damage if they're destroyed).

One problem. Most Classes abilities that scale with level aren't linear in their increase.
HP are mostly Linear in their increase.

Xzoltar
2011-06-21, 08:33 PM
Hope this project will continue to exist until completion.

BUMP

DragonOfUndeath
2011-07-03, 02:36 PM
(This is totally not a bump *whistles innocently*)

This class is great, keep up the good work.

You seem to want the Moltings to be a major part of the class so how about this:
Generic Least Molting:
Prereq: Pick 2 (Alignment on 1 axis, skill at max rank, Feat) OR Pick 1 (Alignment on 2 Axis, 2 skills at max rank, 2 Feats)
Ambient Sorceries: Pick 5 spells, player picks 3 to add to Ambient Sorceries list
Misc. Benefit: Choose 1 themed ability.
Shape Feature/Minions: Pick 1 (Unique Feature, Unique Minion Type, Reduce cost of 2 Minion Augments by 1, Reduce cost of 1 Minion Augment by 2, Unique Minion Augment)

Sample:
Infernal Temple:
Prerequisites: Alignment: Evil, Knowledge: Religion 8 ranks

Offerings to dark gods fill the rooms of the Infernal Temple. Figurines stare back at you from hollows etched into the rough walls. The very air reeks of evil.

Ambient Sorceries: The dungeon adds 3 of the following to the Ambient Sorceries it can manifest:
Magic Circle Against Good
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Bestow Curse
Desecrate
Contagion

Evil beings inside the Dungeon (including any Minions of the Dungeon) gain a +2 to Attack Rolls made against Non-Evil beings.

Shape Feature:
Spooky Figurines
Cost: 1/5 figurines
Requirements: Infernal Temple Molt

Idols of dark beings and gods dot the walls, striking fear into the heart of all who gaze upon them.
Non-Evil beings must succeed on a Will Save (DC10 +1/2 Know:Religion ranks +1/2 number of Figurines in sight) or take a -1 on all attack and skill checks for every figurine they can see.


Lesser Moltings would have both general types and Molt-Tree ones, like upgrading the Infernal Altar into a Temple, or a Graveyard into a Catacomb.

ClockworkCrow
2011-07-05, 02:58 PM
Oh my.

I received a promotion, am looking at moving, and...well, this project just slipped off of my radar. I do apologize to those of you who had been waiting.

One thing that's sort of bubbled through, reading back through this, is that the shape features ability is simply..too granular I think. It might be best for me to rework it so a single point shapes a room of various size, or a hallway, or allows a certain number of mundane traps to be sprinkled along the surface area. Hm. I've got a full plate at the moment, but I'll see if I can't devote some more time to this.