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Seerow
2011-05-01, 10:06 PM
edit: I know I get long winded, so if anyone looks at the wall of text and cringes, skip to the bottom, I put a tl;dr summing it up.

Okay, so I've got this concept for a prestige class. The idea is a mundane who is so badass he basically makes magic around him stop warning, as he wills it. I'm seeing it as a martially focused fairly defensive prestige class, with a special requirement of no Spellcasting and no Psionics (considering also a prereq of no SLAs or the like, and maybe even no supernatural abilities, but I'm afraid that may be -too- restrictive).

The base chasis of the class as I'm thinking right now is high hit die, high armor, and a focus on the shield. Shield Ward as a prerequisite for the class, and tie the shield's armor bonus into a number of the features.

Now the big thing I wanted to bounce some ideas around on: The flavor, and abilities that would fit said concept. For example, right now my first instinct is to give a pool of points, similar to power points in mechanics, that get used to fuel the class's powers. Say at first level you can spend 5 of these points to grant yourself SR 10+HD+Shield Armor Bonus. At later levels you might be able to spend more points to extend protection to nearby teammates, or expend points to dispel an active spell, deactivate/supress a magic item, or counterspell a spell that is being cast.


Here's the problem I'm having:
1) Flavorwise, is this justifiable? The intent is to have a mundane whose very presence can force reality back to the way it's supposed to be, not quite a walking Anti-Magic Field, but close to it.

On the other hand, the general rule is only magic can stop magic, and while spell resistance is justifiable on oneself, when it's being extended to others, and starts turning into outright counterspelling, does this work? How can we make it work? It gets worse when you consider the resource system I'm considering is basically Psionics but with very specific defensive powers.

The concept could work similarly as a Gish class, but I get a feeling it would be far stronger there, as there you are simply adding flexibility to someone who is already a caster, as opposed to opening up a new avenue of options for a non-caster, meaning the general power level of the abilities would need to be much lower, or you'd have to drop a ton of caster levels. Additionally, as a Gish the concept becomes more of an Abjurer than anything else.

So I'm really curious to hear what people have to say about this. Does this concept feel legitimate as a mundane? Is it worth persuing as a Gish? Which option seems more real? Is the concept even really worth a class at all?

2) Mechanically, this is a very defensive set of abilities. The general rule is, defensive classes don't work because there's no real way to force an intelligent enemy to attack you. On the other hand, the plan is to make it so as you progress, it matters less and less if the enemy attacks you, as you can defend anyone on the team as well as yourself.

The weakness instead picked up with this class is that you have no real benefits against mundane creatures. Come up against a Demon Lord or a Dragon, you're doing pretty awesome. Run into a Dinosaur in the woods? You may as well be a fighter without bonus feats. Is this a problem? Should some features be focused into the more traditional defending role (things like providing shield AC bonus to allies, or taking damage for them)?

Similarly, should there be some sort of offensive powers involved? Dispelling and suppressing magic items are already a lot to make you a threat against things with those type of abilities, but once again anything without them just walks right past you and can ignore you. For more mundane opponents should there be features included that allow you to defend allies properly even when there is no spellcaster to fight (such as a marking feature a la 4e, to discourage the enemy from attacking others, or something like the Knight's challenge that forces them to attack you).

I guess the big question here is how focused should a class be to its concept. If you go the gish route, this isn't particularly important, regardless of the class features it will be decent, so you can rest safely on the narrowly focused side of things. But for the mundane route, these class features are going to be all you get for about half of your career, so there's a lot of gaps to consider if you should fill or not. How much offensive power is the heightened defense worth, and how specialized should that defense be? These are the big mechanics questions that need to be answered.







tl;dr version: I'm looking to make a prestige class that is focused on anti-magic specialized defender. Asking for input on what fluff would fit this best, and what kind of mechanics would be needed to make it viable. All input is 100% appreciated.

Pechvarry
2011-05-02, 12:22 AM
Require some small amount of ranks in Spellcraft to get into the class (mindful of the fact they'll probably be cross-class) and make it a class skill. Now use spellcraft checks to screw with opposed casting. If you want to tie this to the shield, perhaps it has to do with flow of a spell as it's cast, and the concept of line of effect: By making the spellcraft check, you're imposing some small bit of ownership over the spell as it's cast. By interposing a flat, broad surface between you and the caster, you "cut off" portions of the spell, lowering its functionality (or outright breaking it).

Obviously, at least one feature would end up an immediate action, but I would also try to make at least one feature capable of being used multiple times/round. Because Shield Ward will be a prereq, go ahead and say they get to add their Shield bonus to these spellcraft checks. For class features, I like the idea of shutting down certain things instead of just saying spellcasting: no. Buff that targets allies counts you as an ally, anyone affected by the spell you hindered adds your shield bonus to their saves, etc. I would simply give the class a passive SR, and some other passive benefits. Of course, an immediate action to attempt a counterspell is a great ability, but probably shouldn't be infinite.

Spell-thief had a pretty cool design idea with the concept of having bonus damage in normal situations, but you have to give it up to get their awesome anti-caster abilities. Of course, they weren't all that awesome. Anyway, I'd say the more niche you make the class, the shorter it should be. If you want a 10 level class, though, there's the other half of shield ward: resisting special combat tricks. You could extend that, giving them very mundane unflappability. I hate to just toss out tons of free feats and pretend they're class features, but Close-quarters Fighting would fit this theme perfectly.

Hadrian_Emrys
2011-05-02, 02:05 AM
How open are you to converting this concept into ToB-ish material? I ask because my initial suggestion for how to make this work is to treat this set of abilities as a feat-acquired (so that the feat can be used to turn Spellcraft into a class skill for all of your current and future HD) martial style that focuses on shields and defensive fighting. In this manner, one could even generate an AMF as the effect of an 8th (or 9th, if you are so bold) level martial Stance.

Fable Wright
2011-05-02, 02:42 AM
Some things to think about:
1. Being a fighter without bonus feats against a dinosaur/giant non-magical being? You do nothing, and most of your feats were probably selected for PrC synergy.

2. Gish, while a common route, is not necessarily the best in this case. You wanted a badass mundane character, not a board-lockdown character. That said, adding in a small class spell list may be useful, if you make sure that the spells selected fit with the theme.

3. You don't necessarily have to force someone to attack you. You can, however, make them really, really want you gone. For example, if the balor starts swinging his epic magic sword around at people, you have clear vantage of the thing and can make said sword just plain mundane. If he tries to escape, reassert that his wings cannot, in fact, carry him, and therefore he must fall. However, if he swung his sword at you, then you can't really negate the magical sword without lowering your guard, and if he's attacking you, then his lack of flight doesn't matter anymore.

4. Countermagic. The idea itself is quite fun for a class; you obligatorily screw anything using magic over, just because they mess with reality. While you can just reassert reality and say "No", you could also selectively reassert reality, say, by changing the target of that buff, or make those meteors hit someone you don't like rather that your friends over there. Eventually, you might be able to reassert reality in different ways- For example, rather than asserting that magic just doesn't exist, you can just reassert normality, save for some small detail- for example, the fact that you didn't just go over that cliff, or that they weren't standing right in the charging barbarian's path, or that the person doesn't have wounds that bad. A mix of both just flat out stopping magic and selectively reapplying it would probably be best, though.

5. You still need to give them offensive options. Rather than just standing there and messing with opponents and reasserting reality in just the right way, you can do things like make their spell-like abilities blow up in their face, or, better yet, use one of those abilities for yourself. They shouldn't have that magical power. However, you know, energy has to go somewhere. Why not make it go over there, because that's just a convenient place, nevermind how it would save your life? Additionally, against non-magical foes, you still need something to have fun- for example, the fact that the ground under your opponent's feet somehow or other got there by magic- and that needs to be fixed immediately. Or the fact that you always had that useful bit of equipment on you- and the fact that it would really be perfect in this situation and you never say it before are just minor details. Or the fact that this convenient tree trunk was there to block the opponent's sword, or that the banister was always there for you to catch.

6. Using this concept, we get something along the lines of what the character wanted to stop- but it's entirely different. He merely points out the things that are wrong with reality, not do crazy things like conjure fire, or mist, or lock people up in extradimensional chains or conjure walls of force- he just shows that things in the mundane world are off, and that it should be corrected. He defines the little details that were missed during creation, and point out flaws in reality- these summarily get fixed. And then, it's alway been like that, but no one noticed until now. Essentially, he makes reality the way it should be, no matter how much the remade reality helps him.

Epsilon Rose
2011-05-02, 04:25 AM
4. Countermagic. The idea itself is quite fun for a class; you obligatorily screw anything using magic over, just because they mess with reality. While you can just reassert reality and say "No", you could also selectively reassert reality, say, by changing the target of that buff, or make those meteors hit someone you don't like rather that your friends over there. Eventually, you might be able to reassert reality in different ways- For example, rather than asserting that magic just doesn't exist, you can just reassert normality, save for some small detail- for example, the fact that you didn't just go over that cliff, or that they weren't standing right in the charging barbarian's path, or that the person doesn't have wounds that bad. A mix of both just flat out stopping magic and selectively reapplying it would probably be best, though.

5. You still need to give them offensive options. Rather than just standing there and messing with opponents and reasserting reality in just the right way, you can do things like make their spell-like abilities blow up in their face, or, better yet, use one of those abilities for yourself. They shouldn't have that magical power. However, you know, energy has to go somewhere. Why not make it go over there, because that's just a convenient place, nevermind how it would save your life? Additionally, against non-magical foes, you still need something to have fun- for example, the fact that the ground under your opponent's feet somehow or other got there by magic- and that needs to be fixed immediately. Or the fact that you always had that useful bit of equipment on you- and the fact that it would really be perfect in this situation and you never say it before are just minor details. Or the fact that this convenient tree trunk was there to block the opponent's sword, or that the banister was always there for you to catch.

6. Using this concept, we get something along the lines of what the character wanted to stop- but it's entirely different. He merely points out the things that are wrong with reality, not do crazy things like conjure fire, or mist, or lock people up in extradimensional chains or conjure walls of force- he just shows that things in the mundane world are off, and that it should be corrected. He defines the little details that were missed during creation, and point out flaws in reality- these summarily get fixed. And then, it's alway been like that, but no one noticed until now. Essentially, he makes reality the way it should be, no matter how much the remade reality helps him.

These are interesting suggestions, but they seem to belong to a caster or half caster (which might not be a bad idea with a slightly different flavor) or even a spellthief PrC.

Might I suggest instead making this a ToB based PrC? It seems like the weird one-off stances and maneuvers those classes give would be an excellent way to handle the anti-magic stuff and the fact that you'd have normal ToB stuff as a base means even if you're fighting something completely mundane you have stuff to do (and you have options that aren't purely defensive). It also might be worth adding some Knight esque challenges to force your opponents to waste their power on you (perhaps a knight/ToB duel progression?).

I'll probably make some suggestions on how to actually handle the maneuvers/stances when it's not 5:21, but in the mean time may I suggest checking out the main character of Yosh (http://www.yoshcomic.com/latest.php) for inspiration?

T.G. Oskar
2011-05-02, 05:32 AM
I was going for a similar idea, but as a base class and using a bard/truenamer chassis. Basically, have the idea of "understanding reality in such a way that you deny magic because you stop believing on it". Of course, it's still supernatural, and thus magical, so essentially it isn't the best way to deal with it (and besides, it would imply having a weak character that would be mundane otherwise, or with the stigma of "how s/he can use magic items if s/he doesn't believe in magic?).

However, it gives an idea that has emerged ever since I played FFT: Magic is a question of belief. Divine magic works under those boundaries; if you believe in a philosophy, you gain knowledge of magic spells and whatnot because of those beliefs. Likewise, you could claim that arcane magic is just a codified set of principles, a boundary between magic and "science" or just sheer belief in the power of self that manifests as magic.

Then, comes Iron Heart Surge. Iron Heart is a school of overcoming obstacles through sheer power of belief, and stuff like Iron Heart Surge (AKA By CROM!!!) and Iron Heart Endurance work exactly under those circumstances.

Thus, I would suggest, if building a mundane warrior PrC with ToB maneuvers, that you build a class that has a basis on the Iron Heart school, and how it can overcome most magical obstacles through sheer willpower, eventually ending on a stance that acts like Antimagic Field.

For example:
When someone casts a spell, you can expend a counter from the Iron Heart maneuver as a swift action to cancel a spell being cast to oneself or to an ally of the same level or lower. That wouldn't stop 9th level spells, but you could provide a class-based bonus that treats the counter as one level higher (using a mathematical progression) for purposes of this ability.

A stance ability that exchanges an Iron Heart stance for the ability to gain spell resistance, but that you can deactivate as an immediate action (or replace as a swift action), equal to the level of the PrC plus the initiator level (eventually ending on something like 15 + IL).

(Ex) abilities that allow for truly extraordinary things. For example, a boost that allows you to make Jump checks where the total height on a high jump is equal to the Jump check, instead of 4 times the Jump check. Kudos if you make it a stronger version of Sudden Leap or tie it to the boost. Or, a boost that exchanges a Diamond Mind boost for the ability to ignore concealment for 1 round. Or a White Raven-based counter that you can apply to others or to yourself, which can only be used in response to an immediate action spell and allows a single attack or a single movement. Perhaps an Iron Heart-based strike that allows you to banish an extraplanar creature with a successful strike. The sky is the limit, and ToB has many such examples of abilities (the way they intended people to make new "maneuvers" to add to the list, in fact).

Give them all good saves, and allow them to apply Strength to Will saves (you're fighting mental assaults with brute force, or something like that). Good saves are essential.

A trait in which, if they fail a save on a single spell and they hold an action, they instantly recover one expended maneuver. Later, one that allows you to gain the benefit of a single maneuver if you are killed, petrified, or made helpless. Ideally, this would go with Iron Heart Surge, to make it a counter instead of a standard action maneuver.

Pechvarry
2011-05-02, 12:26 PM
I love me some ToB, but these days I find myself not wanting to invoke the "create a new school" theorem. Some new maneuvers for Devoted Spirit would be interesting, as would a prestige class that gives a chunk of maneuver-esque abilities.

But perhaps the best thing to do is continue on your course of creating a normal prestige class with lots of anti-mage abilities, but then slap on a maneuver progression at the end.

Seerow
2011-05-02, 03:11 PM
A lot of people are suggesting using ToB style material to cover the concept, and I am considering it. Several of you make good points for ways that this could be done effectively, and I do like that it leaves room for you to have other maneuvers known that have nothing to do with the class concept, so you can be a little more flexible and not so useless when dealing with non-magical encounters.

Going that route, I'd probably be looking at class features that may be activated by burning one of your currently readied maneuvers, and a new maneuver recovery as T.G. Oskar suggested tied to being targetted with spells (though recovering maneuvers when you fail a save I don't like specifically, the concept of regaining maneuvers based on being hit with someone else's magic is sound). This would likely make the Swordsage an ideal entry class though, given a large number of maneuvers to burn, and a free less crappy way to recover them. I'm torn over whether this is good or not, given Swordsage is the most magical of the 3 ToB classes.

Now, I am leery of making a blanket AMF as a stance, simply because that's very non-discriminatory and your party will hate you for it. And if it's a AMF you can shape such that it only negatively affects enemies that's in the realm of epic stuff unless your group literally plays Cheater of Mystra level characters regularly. I think just being able to disable magic items, counterspell, and similar effects will be enough to get the concept across without being a walking AMF (though an epic progression or epic destiny conversion may well include that).

I was going to lay out the alternatives, but the more I think of it, the more this model makes sense. The alternative simply requires too much in the way of extra class features to make up for the offensive power needed to stay relevant.


So we're looking at a feature list of the following right now:
-High Saves/BAB/HD
-Ability to apply shield bonus to saves, progression to allow this to apply to allies as well. (Going this route instead of the +stat to saves to emphasize the reliance on shields, and make the bonus more predictable)
-Personal Spell Resistance, either 10+IL+shield bonus or 15+IL. Possibly starting at 10+IL and increasing by 5 or shield bonus at a later level.
-Ability to deactivate/negate the effect of a magic item by burning a readied maneuver.
-Ability to dispel a magic effect by burning a readied maneuver
-Ability to immediate action counter-spell a spell by burning a maneuver
-Possibly the ability to suppress a su ability by burning a maneuver.

I see 6 abilities there, 1 of which could be made to scale to expand it to 7 abilities at need. Should be plenty for an initiating class, figure 8-9/10 levels of initiating would fit with that setup of abilities?

Pechvarry
2011-05-02, 10:09 PM
I'm interested in such a class.

Epsilon Rose
2011-05-02, 11:15 PM
Might this counter spelling variant (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Better_Counterspelling_%283.5e_Variant_Rule%29) make for an interesting stance, maybe replacing the required spell with a maneuver of the appropriate level or a spell craft check?

Seerow
2011-05-02, 11:29 PM
Might this counter spelling variant (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Better_Counterspelling_%283.5e_Variant_Rule%29) make for an interesting stance, maybe replacing the required spell with a maneuver of the appropriate level or a spell craft check?

It looks interesting, and close to what I was considering doing, though making it an opportunity action rather than an immediate action allows for a lot of neat side effects (in particular far stronger access to the action economy).


Anyway, I'm working on a first pass at the crunch, and should have something up soon.

Seerow
2011-05-03, 12:58 AM
Okay, here's the first pass. No flavor text involved yet, really, and all of the ability names are pretty crappy. Using the name "Warder" as a working class name. I'm sure there's other names that would fit better, but as Ive said before, I'm terrible with names, so that's what I've got for now.

Turns out I didn't need a specific effect for nullifying a magic item, because apparently dispel magic can do that on its own. I am considering another feature to increase the time an item stays nulified when you do that (trading an attack for a dispel that may only last 1 round is pretty sad, and likely the main reason that those don't get used).

Also I'm thinking some way to upgrade the action cost from an attack action to a swift action would be nice to fit in somewhere, but I'm not sure if it would be too strong.

The Warder

Becoming a Warder
Entry Requirements
Feats: Shield Ward, Combat Reflexes
BAB: +4
Skills: Spellcraft 3 ranks
Martial Maneuvers: Must know at least two martial maneuvers, and at least one martial stance.
Special: May not have access to spellcasting or psionic powers. If a member of a class that grants spellcasting, but not at first level (Such as a Ranger or Paladin), you may take this class as long as you have not reached a level where you are capable of casting spells.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Man. Known|Man. Readied| Stances Known

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Magic Absorption, Revert Reality|
0|
0|
0

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|---|
1|
1|
0

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Spell Resistance|
0|
0|
0

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|---|
1|
0|
0

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Seal Ability|
0|
1|
1

6th|
+6|
+5|
+5|
+5|---|
1|
0|
0

7th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+5|Improved Shield Ward|
0|
1|
0

8th|
+8|
+6|
+6|
+6|---|
1|
0|
0

9th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+6|Counter Magic|
0|
0|
0

10th|
+10|
+7|
+7|
+7|Reality Aura|
1|
1|
0 [/table]


Hit Die: d12
Class Skills (4+int modifier per level)
Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search(Int), Sense Motive(Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Use Rope (Dex).

Maneuvers: At every even numbered level, you gain one maneuver known from the Stone Dragon, Diamond Mind, or Iron Heart disciplines. You must meet a maneuver's prerequisites to learn it. You add your full Warder level to your initiator level to determine your total initiator level and highest level maneuvers known.

At 2nd, 5th, 7th, and 10th levels, you gain one extra maneuver readied.

Stances Known: At 5th level you learn one new stance from the Stone Dragon, Diamond Mind, or Iron Heart Disciplines.

Sidebar: Burned Maneuvers
This class gains several abilities that will refer to burning a maneuver to activate the ability. What this means is that instead of using a readied maneuver normally, the Warder is able to instead use one of his class abilities, at the cost of expending one of his readied maneuvers.A maneuver burned in this way may not be recovered via normal recovery methods while in combat, and must be recovered via the class ability Magic Absorption. Outside of combat all maneuvers may be recovered as normal.

Magic Absorption(Ex): When a spell targets the Warder who is holding his shield, if he makes a successful saving throw against the spell, he is able to recover one maneuver that was burned

Revert Reality(Ex): As an attack action, the Warder can burn any currently readied maneuver in order to dispel a magical effect within his reach, treating your initiator level as caster level for purposes of the dispel check. Unlike the Dispel Magic spell, this effect may affect Force effects.

Spell Resistance(Ex): The Warder is particularly resilient against spells. Starting at 3rd level, while holding a shield, he gains spell resistance equal to 10 plus his initiator level. At 6th level, he may add his Shield Armor Bonus to his Spell Resistance.

Seal Ability(Ex): At 5th level, as a swift action the Warder may burn a currently readied maneuver in order to seal a Supernatural ability of his choice that a creature within his reach possesses. The Warder must know that the creature has the ability in order to seal it. The Warder may have only one ability at a time sealed in this manner, and must spend a swift action each round to keep it sealed.

Improved Shield Ward(Ex): At 7th level, the Warder gains the ability to apply his Shield bonus to all saving throws against Spells, Spell-Like abilities, and Supernatural Abilities.

Counter Magic(Ex) Starting from 9th level, the Warder is able to burn a readied maneuver as an opportunity action to counterspell any spell or spell-like ability that targets him or traces its line of effect through its square. To successfully counter the spell, the Warder must make a attack roll, with a DC equal to the Spell's Saving Throw DC. The maneuver burned must be equal or higher level than that of the effect being countered.

Reality Aura(Ex): While you are in a stance from any discipline you know, you can forgo its normal benefit as a swift action to gain the benefit of Reality Aura. This ability lasts as long as you would maintain the stance. You can also choose to stop using the reality aura and resume gaining the normal benefit of the stance as a swift action.

While you use Reality Aura, many of your abilities become more widespread. The reality aura stretches out 50ft. Within this radius, your Improved Shield Ward and Spell Resistance may be applied to all allies. Additionally, for purposes of Magic Absorption and Counter Magic, all squares within that 50 ft radius are considered within your line of effect. Finally, all squares within that 50 ft radius are considered within your reach for the purposes of Revert Reality and Seal Ability.

brujon
2011-05-03, 01:48 AM
I don't think ToB-like material is too good for the kind of idea you're bouncing around. It's pretty magical, too. The way i see it, it's more like the guy is so skeptical, that he forces that into reality around him.

Like, he denies anything out of the ordinary, with so much force of will, that anything that tries to modify reality around him just plains stop working, or works differently from intended.

It's like: "Demons? Pft. How do you people still believe in that? It's just something we tell kids so that they behave themselves."

And then, the Balor that he was fighting starts to be sucked back to the abyss.

vs a mage? "How does a 80 year old guy still thinks he can do magic? This is stupid. Have you no shame? My kids are way more mature than you."

And suddenly, the enemy caster has to deal with increased spell failure, random effects, or maybe even a anti-magic field.

Obviously, my idea is the epitome of the trope "badass normal". The guy is so averagely average, he makes it so everything around him level roughly to his level.

He is the super-critic, like some players that have passed through most of your tables, i presume.

The kind of guy that says "This is stupid. Physics don't work that way. You're telling me that a guy can carry 200kg of encumbrance and still run? And he weighs just 80kg?! Don't make me laugh. "

or "Dinousaurs living alongside developed mammals? Didn't you learn anything about Darwinism? An animal with that size has to eat a lot, mammals cannot compete."

Stuff like that. He's a badass normal. He can fight, or pick locks, maybe he's very good at those things. But he's also a pain in the arse, and that's because he doesn't believe anything can come out of anything that isn't "normal" in his eyes. And it shows.

Maybe a class that is a walking debuffer? He can deny other's reality. That +5 Flaming Burst Axiomatic Sword? It's now just a long sword. That 1000 year old mage? It's a crazy old bum.

The guy doesn't believe in anything, and his force of will makes it so that the things HE believes should be, ARE.

The way i'm saying it, it's probably too powerful to be viable, but if he couldn't wholly deny the effects(or maybe just deny the lowest level effects), but could disrupt most magic, then it could work.

Like: The enemy mage casts Fire Shield. The intended effect, is that he's on fire, and people hurting him are now taking fire damage. With the Skeptical around? HE's on fire, and HE's taking damage from the fire.
"Serves you right for messing around with flammable materials. You really thought you could use magic? Idiot."

More powerful effects have less chance of being disrupted, but the guy still has a chance of disbelieving them and evading damage. Rules-Context, a guy who has a personal Anti-Magic Field around him, and a Wild Magic zone past that. Maybe a little more complicated than that.

Maybe normal magic works with him like Illusions? He can make a check to simply disbelieve them.

My kind of idea.

Epsilon Rose
2011-05-03, 02:39 AM
Snip.
Unfortunately that doesn't really work in D&D. First, there's so much magic around that claiming magic doesn't exist just makes you look stupid, and second because at that level you're forced to either gimp yourself by using wholly mundane weapons or having to explain why you can have a freezing, exploding bastard sword but the level 40 lich can't cast spells.
Also, anyone half that extreme would be an absolute nuisance, I can't picture anyone wanting to actually adventure with him.



@Seerow: This is a good start, but I'm going to Pit Nicks now, K.
Spell Resistance: Roight, so as things are now if a warder's spell resistance stops a spell they don't recover a maneuver. Since SR comes before saves that seems a bit mean.

It also relates to the second problem: you have a lot (almost all) of abilities that "burn" maneuvers. This means that if you use your class features you're liable to run out of maneuvers really quickly, and then you're back to being the proverbial fighter with out feats. This isn't helped by the fact that you aren't going to be recovering much unless your DM 1) likes to through around tons of spells and 2) keeps targeting you with them even after it would be clear to the caster that it's a bad idea or your allies targeting you with spells that have saves and you resisting, which is just silly for many reasons.


Seal Ability(Ex): First, I don't think "seal" is ever defined, it's fairly easy to figure out what it does from context, but you should still fix that.
Also, two odd effects of this power: 1) they're actually capable of locking down certain maneuvers (that might not be a bad thing), 2) they might be better at locking down creatures that use super natural abilities than they are actual mages since such creatures are unlikely to have lots of SU abilities, but it costs a maneuver (that's a pain to get back) every time they want to stop a mage casting.
Also also, I'm not sure if using up swift actions is to harsh or not. Maybe just locking the maneuver until you unseal their ability would be enough?

Reality Aura(Ex): I'm fairly certain that Absorb Magic doesn't care about your line of effect. That said some interpretations of this ability could be VERY bad for a warder (I'd really rather not be considered the target of EVERY spell that goes off withing 50' of me).

I do have a handful of suggestions for fixing the maneuver burning thing, they're kinda pick and choose, you could go with none, all or somewhere in between.

Lose the burn mechanic: I'm not sure any of these abilities are powerful enough to require a special recovery mechanic.
Make Counterspelling a stance, and every time they counter a spell they regain ~1d4 (possibly minus 1) maneuvers (which could include the one they just spent to counter).
If you go with both of my above suggestions you might want to impose a character level (or bab) check vs. a caster level check on Absorb Spell ala Spell Thief

Tacitus
2011-05-03, 03:35 AM
Hmm... if you stick with the ToB idea, there is a shield specific discipline around here somewhere that might interest you.

Lets see.... ah! Iron Tortoise (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160377)

T.G. Oskar
2011-05-03, 04:48 AM
Turns out I didn't need a specific effect for nullifying a magic item, because apparently dispel magic can do that on its own. I am considering another feature to increase the time an item stays nulified when you do that (trading an attack for a dispel that may only last 1 round is pretty sad, and likely the main reason that those don't get used).

Make it a boost. You expend a boost, whenever you make an attack, the enemy gets dispelled and any magic items it holds are suppresed by a number of rounds equal to 1 + half your initiator level. Makes it lethal at level 5 (the expected entry level, although the ability might be of higher level) with at least 3 levels worth of deactivation, and much more lethal at level 18th or so with one full minute of item deactivation. Remember that Warlocks have invocations that separate Dispel Magic, so you can do the same and as a boost you can do it as part of an attack, not as a maneuver itself. Or, you can combine the Revert Reality ability (which I would seriously call "Balance of the Warriors" or something poetic) and a boost that extends the duration of the dispel check. But I'd see the Warlock invocations and Dispel Magic itself as a source of ideas; you DO want a maneuver that works better than the Suel Arcanamach's Dispelling Strike, after all.


Also I'm thinking some way to upgrade the action cost from an attack action to a swift action would be nice to fit in somewhere, but I'm not sure if it would be too strong.

Aside from that idea above? Making it a boost-like ability instead of a strike-like ability?

Anyways, going with the abilities:
Magic Absorption - Interesting tactic. Gives a lot of importance to the shield, making it the ideal way to deal with the PrC (though, you MIGHT want to specify that you must be holding the shield, not merely use an animated shield; remember what we were speaking off.

Revert Reality - see above. I'd make it exactly as Dispelling Strike, or even as a boost instead of a strike. Otherwise, it works as intended; make a "caster level check" equal to Initiator level, but only as a targeted version of Dispel Magic.

Spell Resistance - you could allow having a Stone Dragon boost provide temporary resilience to SR equal to half your class level or something, alongside the shield's enhancement bonus. Also, I would specify you could deactivate it as a swift action as if it were a stance (which stacks with any other stance you use). Really, getting Spell Resistance as a stance would be magnificent...in execution, but not practical at all. So making it a "stance-like" ability that allows you to use another stance is magnificent.

Seal Ability - I dunno...this really looks like a Devoted Spirit or Shadow Hand maneuver. Or heck, even Stone Dragon. However, make it a status effect: for a number of rounds equal to (1/2 IL|1/4 IL|1/2 class level), the enemy may not use a single supernatural ability of his choice. Also, make it so that it hurts binders by sealing their ability to do soul binds. This seems perfect for binders, actually.

Counter Magic - could it help to come earlier on? I can expect it at...let's say, level 13th. Or 14th, or 15th. It should be an ability that shouldn't exceed from 5th level. In fact, I'd place it at 3rd level, and make it "counters any spell of the counter's level or lower. At 6th level and again at 9th level, the counter is treated as 1 level higher for purposes of counterspelling." That way, you get low level maneuvers to cancel high-level spells, because as it currently stands, you can use Moment of Perfect Mind to cancel something like Time Stop, which sounds really illogical. However, something like Diamond Defense stopping Time Stop is perfectly viable.

Reality Aura - I recall that, when you gave your ideas about Divine Deterrence and the Project Heretica "anti-spellcaster" auras, you mentioned that it scaled poorly. I would have expected to see something similar as the capstone ability of the PrC, given that you're basically denying the enemy the ability to cast magic, but not through an Antimagic Field and instead as an ability where you make the spellcaster doubt its spellcasting abilities. That said, it's not a bad ability: basically you provide a Protection from Spells and Spell Resistance to all allies (both based on your initiator level), which makes spellcasters still capable of casting their spells but your allies gaining great resilience. It still affects your allies (spell resistance applies to most buff spells so you'd also affect your allies' spells), however. I may consider allowing "harmless" spells to ignore your spell resistance so that you can still buff (and so does the spells of your enemies, if they decide to buff, but then they're victims of your Revert Reality or, in the case of a Warlock, their dispelling invocations, or even Reciprocal Gyre), while your enemies have a hard time succeeding on their spells.

I also make echo of the "lose the burn mechanic" idea: the way ToB places it, maneuver-replacing and stance-replacing abilities in PrCs have some leverage that makes them much more powerful than the norm. Burning maneuvers makes you think twice before doing that, because while you can recover it outside of battle (and how Adaptive Style interacts with it isn't really dealt with), you'll be left with powerful maneuvers inside of battle, whereas you may have to fight a summoned monster with less maneuvers, or probably have a spellcaster who uses two spells back-to-back and your immediate action can't stop the second spell.


I don't think ToB-like material is too good for the kind of idea you're bouncing around. It's pretty magical, too. The way i see it, it's more like the guy is so skeptical, that he forces that into reality around him.

Like, he denies anything out of the ordinary, with so much force of will, that anything that tries to modify reality around him just plains stop working, or works differently from intended.

It's like: "Demons? Pft. How do you people still believe in that? It's just something we tell kids so that they behave themselves."

And then, the Balor that he was fighting starts to be sucked back to the abyss.

vs a mage? "How does a 80 year old guy still thinks he can do magic? This is stupid. Have you no shame? My kids are way more mature than you."

And suddenly, the enemy caster has to deal with increased spell failure, random effects, or maybe even a anti-magic field.

Obviously, my idea is the epitome of the trope "badass normal". The guy is so averagely average, he makes it so everything around him level roughly to his level.

He is the super-critic, like some players that have passed through most of your tables, i presume.

The kind of guy that says "This is stupid. Physics don't work that way. You're telling me that a guy can carry 200kg of encumbrance and still run? And he weighs just 80kg?! Don't make me laugh. "

or "Dinousaurs living alongside developed mammals? Didn't you learn anything about Darwinism? An animal with that size has to eat a lot, mammals cannot compete."

Stuff like that. He's a badass normal. He can fight, or pick locks, maybe he's very good at those things. But he's also a pain in the arse, and that's because he doesn't believe anything can come out of anything that isn't "normal" in his eyes. And it shows.

Maybe a class that is a walking debuffer? He can deny other's reality. That +5 Flaming Burst Axiomatic Sword? It's now just a long sword. That 1000 year old mage? It's a crazy old bum.

The guy doesn't believe in anything, and his force of will makes it so that the things HE believes should be, ARE.

The way i'm saying it, it's probably too powerful to be viable, but if he couldn't wholly deny the effects(or maybe just deny the lowest level effects), but could disrupt most magic, then it could work.

Like: The enemy mage casts Fire Shield. The intended effect, is that he's on fire, and people hurting him are now taking fire damage. With the Skeptical around? HE's on fire, and HE's taking damage from the fire.
"Serves you right for messing around with flammable materials. You really thought you could use magic? Idiot."

More powerful effects have less chance of being disrupted, but the guy still has a chance of disbelieving them and evading damage. Rules-Context, a guy who has a personal Anti-Magic Field around him, and a Wild Magic zone past that. Maybe a little more complicated than that.

Maybe normal magic works with him like Illusions? He can make a check to simply disbelieve them.

My kind of idea.

Well, that works fine...for the class I suggested. It really works under that principle, but it allows for the supernatural to exist; magic does exist, it's just that you either refuse to believe in it (such as an atheist in a world where gods walk the earth (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatEarthAtheist)) or someone who knows that if you believe that something will not affect you, or you make the enemy doubt, the effect will not work. It has an echo with philosophy and modern science, which are currently working to debunk every myth around, but with that Greek touch that permeates D&D.

However, instead of a philosopher or a Defiant or a Forsaker, the OP is interested in someone who can negate the benefits of magic through martial maneuvers, which albeit still "magical" are slightly more realistic than "telling the laws of physics to sit in a corner and weep", if my quoting of Vaarsuvius is correct. If you want to do it without the ToB flavor, you need abilities that can work as extraordinary on their own, and if that already existed, it would have made mages cringe (and it DOES exist...in the Mage Slayer set of feats and using Occult Slayer as a source).

brujon
2011-05-03, 08:59 AM
Well, that works fine...for the class I suggested. It really works under that principle, but it allows for the supernatural to exist; magic does exist, it's just that you either refuse to believe in it (such as an atheist in a world where gods walk the earth (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatEarthAtheist)) or someone who knows that if you believe that something will not affect you, or you make the enemy doubt, the effect will not work. It has an echo with philosophy and modern science, which are currently working to debunk every myth around, but with that Greek touch that permeates D&D.

However, instead of a philosopher or a Defiant or a Forsaker, the OP is interested in someone who can negate the benefits of magic through martial maneuvers, which albeit still "magical" are slightly more realistic than "telling the laws of physics to sit in a corner and weep", if my quoting of Vaarsuvius is correct. If you want to do it without the ToB flavor, you need abilities that can work as extraordinary on their own, and if that already existed, it would have made mages cringe (and it DOES exist...in the Mage Slayer set of feats and using Occult Slayer as a source).

I gave basically 3 ways of achieving the "anti-magic specialized defender"

1. Make it so he treats every magic as an illusion to himself (Will to disbelieve)
2. Make it so that magic that does work, doesn't always do what it was supposed to (Wild Magic)
3. Actively negating things that don't conform to his world view.


The first option, making it so that he treats magic as an illusion to himself(and his allies), and the second option, making magic go bonkers, works fine for the idea the OP suggested.

Treating magic as an illusion is basically a way of saying that he is using his force of will to negate whatever is getting thrown at him (BY CROM!), but it doesn't necessarily requires any martial maneuvers, or anything else.

It could be something like this:

Untouchable(EX): By sheer force of will, you can negate any spell effect of (PrC level/2) or less. To negate an effect, you must make a will save equalling to 10 + Spell Level. You can also ignore weapon enhancements that strike you (+1 per 3 class levels), if you make a Will Save equalling 10 + (Your AC - Enemy BaB).

Untouchable *Improved* (EX): Spells from the Illusion School are automatically disbelieved, regardless of level. You also gain a +2 bonus on the test to negate spell effects and magical enhancements.

Make some more class features that extend those benefits to his allies, a way of ignoring defensive enchantments, and it's golden. Carefully spacing out the class features so that the PrC doesn't become a desirable dip just because of the ability to ignore spell effects (Better than SR, IMO, because it also affects spells that do not permit any saves/SR)

Regarding the Wild Magic Zone, it could be made into a class feature. As for allied mages, well. Maybe as fluff, the PrC doesn't interacts well with mages? He would be hated by the party mage, but the debuffing effect he has on enemy mages would help defeat otherwise powerful enemies. Alternatively, it could be made into a "tag" effect, like, he affects a enemy mage with a curse.

Other options could be the ability to increase AcF some times per day, etc...

I like ToB, but i prefer doing without it when i can. Creating a new martial adept for everything makes the concept get old rather quickly. Also, it's pretty magical. Except for some schools, like Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw, they all have magic-like fluff on some, or most of their abilities(Diamond Mind, Desert Wind, and Shadow Hand comes to mind...)

Also, giving maneuver progression to every melee PrC makes it so that you're not even trading something for being able to do something else. I'm of the opinion that making fighters into casters is a cool idea, but not the end-all.

Sometimes, i begin to think that nowadays, you only have 2 classes: Martial Adept and Mage. Interesting melee classes such as the Knight rarely do see play nowadays, because everyone just goes right to ToB whenever they want to play a fighter.

/endrant

Seerow
2011-05-03, 11:17 AM
brujon:

Honestly, what you're saying is what I was considering when first starting the topic, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized how much more jam packed the class would need to be to have anything resembling offensive flexibility or even usefulness. Basically I'd have to create an extra dozen abilities, and a new resource system, to be able to do something that honestly ToB mechanics already cover quite nicely. Because just giving Dispel/Counter/Supress magic at will with no restrictions would be too strong a counter against magic, but would be too weak against anything else.

And honestly, ToB isn't all that magical unless you go into the Swordsage. This class has its new maneuvers restricted to Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and Diamond Mind disciplines, 3 of the most mundane disciplines in the book, and I think it fits well enough. While I'm a fan of making concepts work without maneuvers, and am not the sort of person to say you must use maneuvers for everything non-magical, in this instance the mechanics fit what I need in a way that feels more mundane than some of the alternatives.


Anyway, on discussion of the current draft:

Epsilon Rose:
1) The Absorb Magic mechanic was the one I was most worried about, honestly. On one hand, I want to have the ability to spontaneously get rid of a readied maneuver to use the class features. This allows for the flexibility I wanted to have in the class. On the other hand there needs to be SOME drawback for that. If I just used it to expend a maneuver that could be regained regularly, you basically never run out. This method makes it so that you have to be a little more careful with what you use.

The point with spell resistance not affecting Absorb Magic is well taken though, I think I will update it to include if a spell is successfully resisted with spell resistance. I also like counterspelling recovering a maneuver, but I don't think I'd allow it to be used to recover the same maneuver you just used to counterspell.

2) The Reality Aura's reference to Absorb Magic was because I originally had Absorb Magic taking effect anytime a spell's line of effect passed through your square, a la counterspelling. The intent was that you could then refresh anytime a spell was cast that had to pass within 50 feet of you. Of course, I then changed absorb magic, but didn't change this. So instead, Reality Aura should allow Absorb Magic anytime an ally under the effect of his aura successfully resists a spell. Does that make it better in your eyes?

As an aside, does reality aura enter the picture too late? I wanted to make an impressive capstone, to discourage just dipping into the class and dipping back out, since there's apparently not a +1 level to initiating class in ToB, but rather a separate maneuver progression for each class, and this seemed like the best ability choice that wasn't really central to the class that could be delayed. Would it be better to shift improved spell resistance and/or improved shield ward upwards in level, and bump reality aura/counterspelling down, with some sort of progression to them as Oskar suggested? This makes the class more feature heavy, but the new ones would be advancements, and the major abilities would come earlier. I'm really worried about making the class just a no-brainer for anyone with maneuvers to dip into.

3) On Seal Ability, you're saying on one hand it's too strong (easier to lock down Su abilities as opposed to constant counterspelling), and on the other hand too weak (eating up actions). My thought on it was that the eating up actions was a good way to balance out the fact that you're taking out a potentially major ability from the enemy's arsenal. Do you have any suggestions to make this effect more costly without eating your actions to sustain it?



T.G. Oskar
1) Making the effect a boost is an interesting way to do it, but with your wording (using a boost then attacking) you couldn't dispel something you can't attack. Whereas Reality Aura currently allows you to spend that attack action to dispel something up to 50 ft away. That's a pretty big difference. I was actually thinking something more along the lines of starting as a standard action as it is now, but a higher level progression that lets you use it as a swift action. Then it takes the same action as the boost, but doesn't require the melee hit following it up.

2) Good point, I'll make a point of explicitly disallowing animated shields.

3) Does the spell resistance really need to be boosted that high? Already, with a +5 Heavy Shield, you have 18+Initiator Level spell resistance, which is pretty damn high (Shield Specialization is a prereq for Shield Ward, so you have 2+1+5 = 8), adding another potential plus 5 to that is pretty rough.

4) What about the seal ability makes it seem like a shadowhand or devoted spirit maneuver? I figured it was fitting with the rest of the class, the ability to stop an enemy from using a supernatural effect.

If you're saying it should be a maneuver rather than a class feature, like I mentioned before the reason I went with the current mechanic is so that these effects don't need to be readied as maneuvers, but may spontaneously replace them, at a cost.

5) The reason I put counter magic so late was to give a better spread of features. Like I mentioned above, I'm considering reshuffling some things, bringing both counter magic and reality aura down in level, and in exchange, giving some sort of scaling effect for both (such as the +1 maneuver level for counterspelling, and likely aura area increases), to get the feel of the class in full force earlier, but encouraging you to still take it all the way to the end.

6) The problem with the anti-caster auras from your Paladin was that they relied on concentration checks to stop the cast. I could make it instead so that enemies need to succeed a saving throw or the like to cast, but simply granting the (not inconsequential) resistances of this class to allies and making it easy to counterspell already serves much the same purpose.

I do agree with you that you should be able to lower your spell resistance easily for beneficial spells. I think I'll include something under the spell resistance description to that effect.

T.G. Oskar
2011-05-03, 11:46 AM
I gave basically 3 ways of achieving the "anti-magic specialized defender"

1. Make it so he treats every magic as an illusion to himself (Will to disbelieve)
2. Make it so that magic that does work, doesn't always do what it was supposed to (Wild Magic)
3. Actively negating things that don't conform to his world view.


The first option, making it so that he treats magic as an illusion to himself(and his allies), and the second option, making magic go bonkers, works fine for the idea the OP suggested.

Treating magic as an illusion is basically a way of saying that he is using his force of will to negate whatever is getting thrown at him (BY CROM!), but it doesn't necessarily requires any martial maneuvers, or anything else.

[...]

Make some more class features that extend those benefits to his allies, a way of ignoring defensive enchantments, and it's golden. Carefully spacing out the class features so that the PrC doesn't become a desirable dip just because of the ability to ignore spell effects (Better than SR, IMO, because it also affects spells that do not permit any saves/SR)

Regarding the Wild Magic Zone, it could be made into a class feature. As for allied mages, well. Maybe as fluff, the PrC doesn't interacts well with mages? He would be hated by the party mage, but the debuffing effect he has on enemy mages would help defeat otherwise powerful enemies. Alternatively, it could be made into a "tag" effect, like, he affects a enemy mage with a curse.

Other options could be the ability to increase AcF some times per day, etc...

The thing is, I cleared that I suggested a similar idea, but it works better for a different kind of class. All you're mentioning works perfectly with a non-magical Bard chassis, even if the abilities may end up supernatural in origin. While you could have a class that works as someone who defies the notion of magic and make it work nicely, a martial character that directly opposes magic should have some sort of "slayer" aspect to it; his (or her) martial focus should be on slaying the supernatural, and the character gains abilities related to that. However, they need to have a distinctive martial flavor; one thing is to have a martial character, say, cut off a Fireball bead in two and have the bead explode at 30 feet distance from him, or shouting "BY CROM!" to shake off any compulsion or physical effect, than having a distinctive belief in the lack of truly supernatural things. The former work well with martial characters; the latter works well with a more intellectual character, who can prove the non-existence of the supernatural through sheer logic. By that line of thought, to have a character be martially strong but that uses his mind, not his blade, to oppose magic seems a bit counter-intuitive. The OP linked the class abilities to a distinct form of martial arts, where the combination between Stone Dragon and Iron Heart's philosophies allowed the martial artist to unlock ways to oppose the supernatural; while it still has the idea of "beating the supernatural with skepticism or logic", it does through a distinctive martial fluff.

All three suggestions (the latter one more than anything) imply that the character's beliefs incline towards the lack of belief in the supernatural, but really little martial flavor behind them. One or two "overcome things through sheer willpower" is good, but basing an entire class on that idea without really providing more than full BAB and bonus feats doesn't make for a proper "defender" or "slayer" or martial class. That is why I mention "that works better for the class I suggested"; take the Bard's Bardic Music, apply all those abilities as "Philosophical Treatises" or something, and they'd work so well you could build tons of fluff behind it, and you can range from the flat-earth atheist to the individual that selectively disbelieves things (can believe in the gods, but not in divine magic for example). On a martial character...you really need something else to make it shine.


I like ToB, but i prefer doing without it when i can. Creating a new martial adept for everything makes the concept get old rather quickly. Also, it's pretty magical. Except for some schools, like Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw, they all have magic-like fluff on some, or most of their abilities(Diamond Mind, Desert Wind, and Shadow Hand comes to mind...)

Also, giving maneuver progression to every melee PrC makes it so that you're not even trading something for being able to do something else. I'm of the opinion that making fighters into casters is a cool idea, but not the end-all.

Sometimes, i begin to think that nowadays, you only have 2 classes: Martial Adept and Mage. Interesting melee classes such as the Knight rarely do see play nowadays, because everyone just goes right to ToB whenever they want to play a fighter.

/endrant

I like ToB as well, but when I 'brew I don't really add much ToB into the mix. I'm of the kind of people who DO believes the Fighter really has little to provide compared to the Warblade, but I do believe that the Monk's flavor has some distinction in comparison to the Swordsage (if only because, while thematically similar, I tend to distinguish between "Shaolin monk" and "wushu"), and I find Paladin/Blackguard/Holy Liberator, Soulborn, Divine Mind and Crusader as four distinct classes but with a common trend, differing only in their method of execution.

However, and this is something that cannot be denied, the introduction of ToB pretty much revolutionized martial classes in D&D. They granted something that feats could never provide; options for non-casters to do something awesome. However, in doing so, they indirectly affected their original martial classes, and still made the classes dependent from the feats that made those classes what they are: for example, they still depend on Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Two-Weapon Fighting and whatnot. In fact, you can build a decent Fighter that can remain toe-to-toe with the Warblade...but mostly on damage. Barbarians out-damage Warblades any day; just Rage and PA away. Knights offer a method of tanking that is pretty close to what lockdown Crusaders do, but in their own way; with their Knight's Challenges, they can simply buff or debuff the enemy and still provide some degree of battlefield control. What ToB does is raising the lower boundary of martial optimization, and slightly raising the upper boundary, but in the end most of the tricks are really similar, and can be gained easily by other classes (a Warblade or Swordsage gains Pouncing Charge at level 11-13; a Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian gains it at level 2).

Also: not all ToB maneuvers are "magical":
Diamond Mind: while the high speed and concentration bits may seem quasi-supernatural, you can link Diamond Mind closer to psionics than to magic, and even then, mostly to the psionic condition. However, if you look at it closely, it's basically iaijutsu reflavored. Iaijutsu is no more supernatural than the mystical flavor of Japanese sword art.
Iron Heart: while Iron Heart Surge/BY CROM! may seem magical (and heck, how does CONAN OF CIMMERIA, probably the least magically-inclined character around, can pull this off without calling it magical and Iron Heart Surge DOES...?), the bulk of the discipline's abilities rely on sheer willpower and deft swordsmanship. Think...I dunno, maybe German/Swiss fighting schools, but with a bit of "never give up" backing it up.
Setting Sun: look at it. All the throws, the counters, the philosophy of "the weak can defeat the strong with their own power"? That's not quasi-magical; that's jujitsu plain and simple. Sure, you can later become a whirlwind and move away while catapulting people, but it's no less believable than a wrestler doing a dropping punch after making a silly moniker and winning the combat because of it. The core of Setting Sun are throws and grabs, and that's pure jujitsu.
Tiger Claw: think...guerrilla combat, hunter's techniques, Ghurka warriors with their kukris... Most of the discipline's abilities sure do sound like magical (scent, impressive leaps), but they fit very well the idea of a hunter that evokes the predators' spirits.
White Raven: this isn't really a set of techniques; this is a set of military drills. They may seem like allowing you to shine or something, but in the end, it's really barking some darned good orders to your troops and winning the day. Second winds, morale boosts and short, codified orders to execute tactical maneuvers are common nowadays.

In fact, those few maneuvers that DO have some supernatural bent also have a decidedly non-magical flavor:
Desert Wind: take away the flame abilities, the hadoken and the ability to fly or become immune to death, and what do you get? Well, you get a school specialized in pretty much all forms of mobility. Flashing Sun allows a split-second extra attack, Salamander's Charge allows for unusual charging methods... It's just that 90% of the maneuvers are geared towards the power of the (desert) flame.
Devoted Spirit: how this class isn't supernatural is beyond me, but strip all of the healing and alignment-based stuff and you got some serious defender abilities. Blocking with shields, countering with shields, intimidating, gauging terrain... Immortal Fortitude can be reclaimed as "having the sheer amount of willpower to survive just about anything".
Shadow Hand: probably the most supernatural of all disciplines, but in the end, it's an assassin's school. Think of what Rogues already do, or Ninja; hide in the shadows, take your time, and stab them until they're dead. Same thing, except you pretty much command the shadows.
Stone Dragon: with the bonuses to bull rushing, charging, tripping, defending against the three mentioned abilities, you can define this class as non-supernatural. But actually, with the [Metal] Bones and Mountain Hammer lines, you do have a strong supernatural flavor behind it. It's another class that should have probably been supernatural.

Now, all nine schools have both supernatural and non-supernatural things, but they do one good thing; they provide the martial character with options, and in the case of 'brewers, they offer a guideline on how to make martial classes good even without delving on martial maneuvers. I do agree that patching all martial stuff with ToB gets old quick, but it's just so darn good it's almost cheating. It takes some time to do stuff that goes beyond the supernatural without merely going for "do more damage"; that type of creativity requires some real good grasp on the game in order to pull off something that isn't already on ToB and that can be done without resorting to ToB. However, for the rest, there's maneuvers and how they work out.

Besides, it's your character; if you don't want to be nor a martial adept nor a magician, go for a classic martial character without maneuvers, and play as you desire. However, you'll need a good amount of skill to work that out, and that isn't because people are lazy, but because this game has been researched to the minuscule detail and people already know how to exploit it. If the OP thinks that martial maneuvers are the way to go, then let him do it so; perhaps he may make a non-martial adept variant that works based on uses per day or even with at-will abilities, but how "balanced" they may be compared to basing the abilities off ToB maneuvers and allowing them options remains to be seen. That doesn't mean your idea is bad, but I don't think Seerow is gonna change his mind about not using ToB anytime.

Pechvarry
2011-05-03, 12:14 PM
I know it's too early for wording stuff, but here's 2 things I thought worthy of note.

Revert Reality -- I wonder if it'd be better to word it at the end as "this affects force effects as if it were a disintigrate" since so many effects specify disintegrate.

Spell Resistance -- no such thing as a "Shield Armor bonus". At least not since 3.5. Shield Bonus, and yeah, I'd specify from shield wielded (not floating, not from a spell effect).

Burn mechanic -- I think it'd probably be best to go to "expend". A healthy medium between the harsh burning and the happy-go-lucky "no cost" method. Just expend as if you'd used it (like Jade Phoenix Mage stuff) and you essentially have 2 sets of maneuvers prepared at all times: your normal maneuvers for fighting regular dudes and monsters, and the anti-mage maneuvers (actually class features) you trade in for when necessary.

Seerow
2011-05-03, 05:19 PM
If the OP thinks that martial maneuvers are the way to go, then let him do it so; perhaps he may make a non-martial adept variant that works based on uses per day or even with at-will abilities, but how "balanced" they may be compared to basing the abilities off ToB maneuvers and allowing them options remains to be seen. That doesn't mean your idea is bad, but I don't think Seerow is gonna change his mind about not using ToB anytime.

Yeah, I'm gonna take this point to reitterate what I said before, I originally wasn't going to make this a martial adept prestige class, and instead give it its own resource system, and a larger number of its own class abilities using that resource.

What I realized in the end after posting this and most people suggesting going ToB is that what I was planning on doing was 10x more work, much harder to balance, and still less flexible than making it based off a martial adept chasis. I am all for making non-martial adept stuff for melee fighters (see: My Fighter, Swashbuckler, and Duelist), and feel that should be a viable role, but it just works out such that this concept worked far smoother as a martial adept.


I know it's too early for wording stuff, but here's 2 things I thought worthy of note

Never too early to get things worded clearly. Better names for the class and abilities are also things that would not go amiss.

Revert Reality-That change makes sense
Spell Resistance-There's a difference between a shield bonus to ac and a shield armor bonus to ac? Either way, I'll make the change.
Burn Mechanic-A lot of people seem to not like this, but I really am worried without something along those lines, the magic nullification could get to be over the top. Most of the recharge mechanics are really easy, to the point where a member of the class could shut down -all- magic relatively easily.

Pechvarry
2011-05-03, 08:19 PM
Then it sounds like you might be happier with class features with per-encounter limitations, separate from your maneuver pool. Alternatively, you could put in the caveat that effects which change your maneuvers readied (Adaptive Style) can allow you to re-ready these effects. This makes it so the better refreshes aren't TOO good, as they'd need a feat and a full round action to recover fully.