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Ralasha
2011-05-06, 06:45 AM
I have been cogitating upon these for some time, and have finally decided to put them into a text format. I find that there are draconic races, humanoids, elves, goblins, and other monstrous races usable as player characters. I have not personally seen such things as these, and thus submit them for discussion, and objective assessment. Meaning, I would rather not have this turn into a discussion of peoples likes and dislikes (though I realize this is probably the wrong place to hope for any lack of entirely subjective views).

What I am hoping for is a non-skewed examination of the mechanics of the races here-in. A look at how well they should (at least in theory) balance out in comparison to the other races.

I will be using this thread as the posting grounds for all future endeavors in the area of racial creation. The names may be unoriginal, however, I have given little thought to that when weighed against the functionality.

First Race Series: Frog-Folk (A number of adaptations based upon the idea of frog-like humanoids.)
Frog-Kin Society: These unusual people range in size from tiny, to medium. An occasional aberration is born amongst their plenitude of peoples, being of one subrace, while possessing the size of another. Amongst their race, they are considered good luck.
They normally live in small villages to hide their numbers, either hidden in the water or mud at the bottom of a lake, using reeds and other natural piping sealed with clay. Their homes may be made of a number of materials, though the most common is long grasses, or other similar materials woven together to create an underwater bubble, which supports the structure, which is sealed with mud or clay in order to keep the water out. In some cases they may live high above the floor of a forest, though always near the rivers and lakes which feed them, assuming the trees are tall enough to conceal their buildings within the canopy. Their life spans are equivalent to a human's. the primary diet of the frog-folk is fish, and fruit, as red meats tend to sit ill with them.
Generic Racial Statistics: If a Frog-Kin is smaller than normal for its kind per size difference (down to tiny, they cannot be smaller), its statistics are modified as follows: +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength, +2 Hide, +1 to all attack rolls and AC Bonus.
For sizes larger than standard for their kind (up to medium, they cannot be larger), their statistics are modified as follows: +2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, -2 hide, -1 to all attack rolls, and AC bonus.
Sizes: Frog kin have the following static bases at each size:
Tiny: 15' (+2 to all attacks and to AC, +4 to hide, standard bonuses and penalties for tiny size.)
Small: 20' (+1 to all attacks and AC, +2 to hide, standard bonuses and penalties for small size.)
Medium: 30' (no other bonuses or penalties.)
Tree-Kin: Based upon the idea of tree frogs.
Description: Tree-Kin as they are called amongst the many and varied subraces of frog-folk tend to be slender and longer limbed than most others of their kind. They are highly agile, and often perform the function of warriors and hunters in their societies.
Racial Features:
Size: Small (5% chance to be tiny, 5% chance to be medium.)
Ability Modifiers: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution (Tree-kin spend much of their youth climbing in the trees, or leaping from place to place. This builds them a moderately higher amount of muscle and endurance than is common in other races of their size. With the added bonus of improving their reflexes, since a fall from such heights can be deadly, and the slow most often do not survive.)
Low-Light Vision: Forests and lake bottoms are dimly lit places, where eyes must adapt to seeing in poor illumination.
+4 to climb jump and swim checks.
Natural Athlete: The Tree-Kin may take a ten on any jump or climb checks, and treat the result as though it had been rolled.
LA: +1
Pond-kin: This subrace of frog-folk is almost always near water, where they feel most at peace, and safest.
Description: These frog-folk are larger than most others of their race, and covered in bright, many would say beautiful, patterns. Their greater size gives them a distinct disadvantage over tree-kin in
Racial Features:
Size: Tiny (10% chance of being small, 5% chance of being medium.)
Swim Speed: 30'
Ability Modifiers: +2 Dexterity +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom. Pond-kin, though taking thorough enjoyment in their swimming and other forms of recreation, are nominally the governing body of their race, since one of the few things they do aside from swim in their youth, is consider their lives and the things around them. This leads them to greater insights than the other kinds.
Natural Defense: Pond-kin may consciously chose to excrete a poison through their skins when threatened. If knocked unconscious in a fight their skin tightens on its own as a natural defense secreting its poisons to protect it against predators. A pond kin may attempt a touch attack to poison a target. Alternatively a Pond-Kin may attempt a ranged attack as though using a thrown weapon, with a range increment of 5'. This poison is an extraordinary ability, with a fortitude save DC 10 plus Con Mod, plus 1/2 Character Hit Dice. On a failed save the target takes 1d2 con damage, and an additional 1d2 con damage each round it fails its save. On a successful save the poison is completely neutralized.
Amphibious: The greatest defense is often the ability to escape, and most predators cannot chase a target under 30 feet of water for long.
+2 to move silently checks
LA: +1
Swamp-kin: Toads as they are more commonly called due to the animal they most closely resemble.Description: Toads are bigger than the others of their kind, and most often perform the function of laborers. They are usually content with this position in life, as it means they are not required to put themselves in unnecessary danger, or attempt to solve the problems of the community. The most common forms of labor are gathering raw materials, constructing buildings, and repairing damage. They tend to be fed first and best in order to keep them content and settled, as the others do not enjoy the idea of performing the labors that these individuals do.
Homes: Toads tend to build their shelters out of the waters, but close to the edge so that if necessary they may flee to safety, but do not have to worry about their house collapsing. Their houses also tend to be built better and with superior materials to the others, often of stone mud and clay rather than grass or sticks.
Racial Features:
Size: Medium (10% chance of small, 5% chance of tiny.)
Swim Speed 15'
Semi-Amphibious: Toads care capable of holding their breath underwater for extended periods of time. This is because while they are capable of breathing through their skin. Unlike the pond-kin however, their skin is not capable of taking in enough oxygen to sustain themselves indefinitely, and they must come up for air on occasion. They may remain beneath the surface, entirely submerged for a number of minutes equal to their constitution score.
Ability Modifiers: +2 Strength, +4 Constitution. Long hours of manual labor do not lend themselves to those that grow easily weak, or weary.
Construction Aptitude: Toads have a natural knack for creating structures out of natural resources, including stone, mud, wood, clay, and other materials which can be found in nature. When using such materials in construction they gain a +4 bonus to all craft (architecture) and Knowledge (Architecture) rolls.
LA: +1

Second Race Series: Minor Races. I find the 'lesser' races to be in some cases sadly lacking, such as the lesser drow, which is basicly just a special wood elf.
Minor Drow:Minor Drow Traits: as Drow except as noted here.
No Spell Resistance
No Spell-like Abilities
Level Adjustment: +1

Zaydos
2011-05-06, 12:56 PM
I assume all three races have 30-ft land speed since none is listed.

Pond-Kin's poison should probably scale based off of 1/2 HD like base class abilities and monster abilities (+1 DC/class level is reserved for PrCs which cap at +10). Also is the maximum range 10-ft or is it a range increment of 10-ft? You say like a thrown weapon which has 5 range increments and adds Str to damage as its distinguishing traits. Also is it a ranged attack or a ranged touch (like the melee version is a touch attack)?

For swamp-kin: I assume semi-amphibious is in addition to hold breath duration (2 rounds per point of Con) common to all creatures? Even so it should probably be longer.

Ralasha
2011-05-06, 01:17 PM
I assume all three races have 30-ft land speed since none is listed.Base land speed is determined by size.
Pond-Kin's poison should probably scale based off of 1/2 HD like base class abilities and monster abilities (+1 DC/class level is reserved for PrCs which cap at +10). Also is the maximum range 10-ft or is it a range increment of 10-ft? You say like a thrown weapon which has 5 range increments and adds Str to damage as its distinguishing traits. Also is it a ranged attack or a ranged touch (like the melee version is a touch attack)?It says as though using a thrown weapon. Unless you think a thrown weapon uses touch attacks? Made it 5' range increments.
For swamp-kin: I assume semi-amphibious is in addition to hold breath duration (2 rounds per point of Con) common to all creatures? Even so it should probably be longer.I'll make it one minute per. Thank you.

Zaydos
2011-05-06, 01:34 PM
Base land speed is determined by size.

There's no standard in the creatures of the MM (goblins are small with 30-ft land speed is the first example to come to mind), and even if you intend for it to follow PHB races they have no tiny races so you should list what it is based on size in your post (for example if it's supposed to be 20' if tiny or small and 30' of medium). Also if you go below 20' for tiny you might want to reduce climb speed of Frog-Kin to the same when they are tiny.


It says as though using a thrown weapon. Unless you think a thrown weapon uses touch attacks? Made it 5' range increments.

I was curious because it also listed what seemed to a be a maximum range which isn't used with thrown weapons. Note that with a 5' range increment you'll be taking a large penalty to any and all attack rolls with it (-2 at 5', -4 at 10', -6 at 15', -8 at 20', and -10 at 25').


I'll make it one minute per. Thank you.

You're welcome.

As for how the stand up. I'm honestly not sure. Pond-kin seem definitely the most interesting to me and the ones I'd actually choose to play as Small sized if possible so that I'd have 5-ft reach and be able to use the melee version of their poison as the ranged attack version is so unreliable as far as accuracy is concerned. Can they combine the touch attack poison with an unarmed strike like a touch spell can be?

Ralasha
2011-05-06, 01:53 PM
There's no standard in the creatures of the MM (goblins are small with 30-ft land speed is the first example to come to mind), and even if you intend for it to follow PHB races they have no tiny races so you should list what it is based on size in your post (for example if it's supposed to be 20' if tiny or small and 30' of medium). Also if you go below 20' for tiny you might want to reduce climb speed of Frog-Kin to the same when they are tiny.
Aside from... specific exceptions: Large: 40 ,Medium: 30, Small: 20, Tiny: 15. Flight speed is normally twice land speed, for Pond frogs, whom spend almost their entire lives in water, use that as a reason for their doubled base speed when swimming.

I was curious because it also listed what seemed to a be a maximum range which isn't used with thrown weapons. Note that with a 5' range increment you'll be taking a large penalty to any and all attack rolls with it (-2 at 5', -4 at 10', -6 at 15', -8 at 20', and -10 at 25'). range increments don't work like that, it would be -0 at 5', -2 at 6-10', etc. This represents accuracy, and wind drift. It is more difficult to hit someone at a distance with a small amount of liquid.

You're welcome. thank you again.

As for how the stand up. I'm honestly not sure. Pond-kin seem definitely the most interesting to me and the ones I'd actually choose to play as Small sized if possible so that I'd have 5-ft reach and be able to use the melee version of their poison as the ranged attack version is so unreliable as far as accuracy is concerned. Can they combine the touch attack poison with an unarmed strike like a touch spell can be?
If a pond-kin attacked with an unarmed strike, yes it could inflict its poison. Assuming it chose to excrete said poison. Also, a -2 to attack over range is not hard to change, far shot: double the range increment. Dex to attack, or using Zen archery: wisdom to attack with it. It is a ranged attack as though using a weapon. Of course, while this obviously cannot include strength bonus damage, it can include a critical hit, which would effectively be getting it into the persons mouth, an open wound, their eye, etc. This would have the normal effect of doubling the damage (on the first round). Sneak attack would also work, but would deal the standard damage, rather than con damage. As according to what I have read up. (I no longer have all of my books.) I read up on that at the time that I had had a Pixie Factotum 3/Rogue 12//War Mage 13. I used touch spells as often as possible. Spells dealing con damage did not deal additional con damage, they dealt negative energy damage. Strength Damage was also negative energy damage. Ray (touch) spells such as Searing Ray dealt positive energy damage. Ice Shard (which deals cold/pierce) would deal half cold, half pierce.

Zaydos
2011-05-06, 02:04 PM
Aside from... specific exceptions: Large: 40 ,Medium: 30, Small: 20, Tiny: 15. Flight speed is normally twice land speed, for Pond frogs, whom spend almost their entire lives in water, use that as a reason for their doubled base speed when swimming.

Hence I commented about climb and not swim. Although I did call Tree-Kin, Frog-Kin and I apologize.


range increments don't work like that, it would be -0 at 5', -2 at 6-10', etc. This represents accuracy, and wind drift. It is more difficult to hit someone at a distance with a small amount of liquid.

I advice you to re-read the page 115 of the PHB which defines range increments.

Range Increment: Any attack at less than this distance is not penalized for range, so an arrow from a shortbow (range increment 60 feet) can strike at enemies up to 59 feet away or closer with no
penalty. However, each full range increment imposes a cumulative – 2 penalty on the attack roll.

Which would be why I thought range increments worked that way.


thank you again.

-snip-

And once more you're welcome (snipped the sneak attack portion because it's completely accurate and rather long). Now I'm thinking about a small sized pond-kin unarmed swordsage. That would be well worth the +1 LA; but I don't think it would necessarily be too strong for the loss of a level and all associated benefits.

Ralasha
2011-05-06, 02:28 PM
And once more you're welcome (snipped the sneak attack portion because it's completely accurate and rather long). Now I'm thinking about a small sized pond-kin unarmed swordsage. That would be well worth the +1 LA; but I don't think it would necessarily be too strong for the loss of a level and all associated benefits.
As in not too strong, but not a bad trade?

Zaydos
2011-05-06, 02:32 PM
As in not too strong, but not a bad trade?

That would be my opinion without acid-testing (actually building two characters and comparing them). It is a potent ability (especially with the +2 to 3 useful ability scores) but I don't think it's enough to push it to LA +2. I'd have to build two characters and compare to be more certain (also I think the power level would vary with character level, and whether LA buy off from Unearthed Arcana was allowed or not).

Ralasha
2011-05-06, 02:41 PM
*nod nod* Like the Minor Drow gains Darkvision, +2 Dex, Int, and Cha, -2 Con. No spell like abilities, no SR, and Drow racial weapon proficiencies. Along with Drow save and skill bonuses.

It was my original creation, some years ago. Then Wizards creates 'lesser drow' or as I call them 'wood elves with darkvision'. Minor Drow are a LA +1.

Lappy9000
2011-05-06, 03:02 PM
Aside from... specific exceptions: Large: 40 ,Medium: 30, Small: 20, Tiny: 15.While that's kinda true, differing speeds is hardly limited to specific exceptions and I'm not really sure why you wouldn't list them.

How does the size work? Do your roll at character creation? And you still list the bonuses to AC and attack rolls as a size bonus, apparently regardless of size. Could use some explanation.

Ralasha
2011-05-06, 03:07 PM
Come now, READ the DMG and the PHB and the MM and look at the coralations between size and movement, and size based attack and AC bonuses. Just as size effects Carrying Capacity.

Yes, there is a direct coralation between size and base speed. Why do you think small monks get a +5 to speed when mediums get a +10, and larges get a +15 (in OA)?
Taken fromt he SRD:

"A Small character generally moves about two-thirds as fast as a Medium character." Please note: Mediums move about 2/3 the speed of a large, a tiny moves at 2/3 the speed of a small, etc.

Character Size and effects (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Race_Descriptions#Character_Size)

Zaydos
2011-05-06, 03:15 PM
The bonuses based on size are for those sizes. Example, small gets a +1 size bonus to attack and AC. -2 strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 hide.

Come now, READ the DMG and the PHB and the MM and look at the coralations between size and movement, and size based attack and AC bonuses. Just as size effects Carrying Capacity.

All three specify that small size gets +4 to hide not +2 (and Tiny gets +8); actually the only race in those three that matches you expectations is halflings.

Also Gnomes have -2 Str and +2 Con, goblins have 30-ft speed, so of the MM small creatures there is an exception to ability score modifiers and speed; the ability score modifiers for increasing size from Small to Medium are in fact +4 Str, +2 Con and -2 Dex with an additional +2 to natural armor. You should note if they follow that table for ability scores if they aren't basic size, though. Also there are no Tiny humanoids in the MM to base those off of. As a note if you do follow those tables a small pond-kin has +4 Str, +2 Con, and +2 Wis which is actually well better than if it is tiny; a medium one has +6 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Wis, and +2 natural armor. I would advice against giving them traditional size modifiers for size unless you want to give them varying LA based on it.

Edit: You linked D&D wiki which adds text not in the SRD or the rule books sometimes. But yes there is a common correlation between size and speed but it cannot be assumed because exceptions make up about 50% of all cases.

Ralasha
2011-05-06, 03:30 PM
Mmm, I suppose I will have to place some of the information under the general header for frog-folk.

There, perhaps you will find this set up more... logically agreeable?

Lappy9000
2011-05-06, 04:26 PM
Come now, READ the DMG and the PHB and the MM and look at the coralations between size and movement, and size based attack and AC bonuses. Just as size effects Carrying Capacity.

Yes, there is a direct coralation between size and base speed. Why do you think small monks get a +5 to speed when mediums get a +10, and larges get a +15 (in OA)?
Taken fromt he SRD:
Please note: Mediums move about 2/3 the speed of a large, a tiny moves at 2/3 the speed of a small, etc.

Character Size and effects (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Race_Descriptions#Character_Size)

No, there is not. Looking at the Monsters in the Monster Manual/SRD (OA isn't 3.5 for what it's worth), the speeds based on size vary greatly depending on the monster. I'm just saying you left out a pretty necessary part of the racial write up. I feel it's worth noting.

Also, general etiquette for responding to critique is that you don't insult the rules knowledge of people who are using their free time to help you without any tangible benefit on their part.

A few monsters who primarily use their land speed:

Achaierai: Large, 50 ft.
Ankheg: Large, 30 ft.
Aranea: Medium, 50 ft.
Archon, Hound: Medium, 50 ft.
Athach: Huge, 50 ft.
Azer: Medium, 30 ft.
Barghest: Medium, 30 ft.
Basilisk: Medium, 30 ft.
Behir: Huge, 40 ft.
Blink Dog: Medium, 40 ft.
Bodak: Medium, 20 ft.

I can keep going if you ask nicely.

DracoDei
2011-05-06, 04:47 PM
Some "Prior Art" in case you missed it (none of it by me) :
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4520705&postcount=4
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4109640&postcount=270

Ralasha
2011-05-06, 05:33 PM
No, there is not. Looking at the Monsters in the Monster Manual/SRD (OA isn't 3.5 for what it's worth), the speeds based on size vary greatly depending on the monster. I'm just saying you left out a pretty necessary part of the racial write up. I feel it's worth noting.In which case, perhaps, before making this post, you should have re-read the first post, in which corrections have been made, and the issues you have stated have been solved. The individual sub-races no longer display their own base speed, or hide, move silently, etc. Instead, in the initial spoiler there is a post containing the information on the effects the various sizes of Frog-Folk have upon their attributes and abilities.

These are not krimet, nor are they... those.

Lappy9000
2011-05-06, 06:02 PM
The individual sub-races no longer display their own base speed, or hide, move silently, etc. Instead, in the initial spoiler there is a post containing the information on the effects the various sizes of Frog-Folk have upon their attributes and abilities.You're welcome :smallcool:

Ralasha
2011-05-07, 09:46 PM
Actually, I had done that before your ranting post (yesterday). It was not you responsible for giving me the idea, frankly, if you had, I would not have used it...

I realize that I am sometimes too blunt, and am often found to be extremely abrasive, but I find you to be abrasive as well.

It was in fact Zaydos that gave me the idea. Sorry Lappy, and thank you Zaydos. ^^


Mmm, I suppose I will have to place some of the information under the general header for frog-folk.

There, perhaps you will find this set up more... logically agreeable?

Was a direct response to the post immediately before it, made by you guessed it. Zaydos.

Minor Drow is now ready.