PDA

View Full Version : Good Vestiges?



Wyntonian
2011-05-13, 11:12 PM
I recently got the Tome of Magic, and as I was reading through the section on pact magic, i realized that it's almost unusable for good characters. I'd like to use pact magic in my homebrewed world, but as a source of power for a very lawful, mostly good society that focuses on ancestor worship, and summons good vestiges of their ancestors. Is there any place I could find some good-aligned vestiges, or would I have to homebrew my own?

LOTRfan
2011-05-13, 11:15 PM
The Vestiges were made under the assumption that they would be a form of taboo in most campaign settings, so most vestiges are a dark shade of neutral at best, or outright evil at worst. I think you shall need to homebrew your own.

Wyntonian
2011-05-13, 11:23 PM
:smallfrown: That's pretty disappointing. I'm not that experienced as a homebrewer, and I just got this book. I suppose most of the benefits could stay the same, if I changed the personalities, influences, appearances and other fluff regarding each individual vestige. But on the other hand, Binders need to make a binding check to prevent the negative influences of an evil/malicious vestige, and that would be hard to reconcile with having good vestiges.

LOTRfan
2011-05-13, 11:25 PM
These (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060324a) links (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060407a) may help. :smallsmile:

Wyntonian
2011-05-13, 11:38 PM
I like those a lot, thanks. I think most of what I'll do is to simply take the mechanics of the original vestiges and then refluff them, making them seem like honored ancestors. Some might have heroic flaws, which will be what the binder seeks to resist. Like my refluffed Buer, who will instead of a hag be a virtuous ranger, an ancestor of the player, who will revile and abandon his progeny if they ever despoil a wilderness area without cause or kill a fey creature in any reason but self-defense. The bonuses will remain the same, but I plan to change the name and the appearance of this vestige, as well as the signs.

Pyromancer999
2011-05-14, 08:55 AM
I don't know about good, but if you're interested in beings focused on Justice, I, in a future time, plan to write up some of the first Grey as vestiges. Look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10986303#post10986303) for more info about them.

DracoDei
2011-05-14, 09:26 AM
This might give you a few good ones (or it might be completely useless I didn't take the time to check). The discussion and additional examples can't hurt though for coming up with your own.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3465146


I actually have some vestiges in mind that I want to make (or talk other people into making), but while many of them are Good (or at least on the Good side of neutral) they are also VERY chaotic, and intended for humor campaigns so I don't think that would help.

mint
2011-05-14, 09:41 AM
I recall ToM stating fairly explicitly that failing a binding check is not intended to be a negative effect, rather an rp-point to play around.
Go forth and refluff!

Veyr
2011-05-14, 09:57 AM
I recently got the Tome of Magic, and as I was reading through the section on pact magic, i realized that it's almost unusable for good characters. I'd like to use pact magic in my homebrewed world, but as a source of power for a very lawful, mostly good society that focuses on ancestor worship, and summons good vestiges of their ancestors. Is there any place I could find some good-aligned vestiges, or would I have to homebrew my own?
This is incorrect. Vestiges have no impact on your own morality, and a character of any alignment may use them. People are very likely to not understand, and treat you as evil/heretical, but that's ignorance, not reality. The Binder is very intentionally not alignment-bound. Vestiges are too divorced from reality to even really have an alignment themselves; their evil or goodness is in the past. Now, they just are... or are not, really. Anyway, they cannot control you, and even binding Tenebrous (a god-killing divine manifestation of Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead) won't make you evil, and you can totally use Tenebrous to do Good. He won't even mind.


The Vestiges were made under the assumption that they would be a form of taboo in most campaign settings, so most vestiges are a dark shade of neutral at best, or outright evil at worst. I think you shall need to homebrew your own.
There is a bit of truth here; a lot of them are pretty dark. But definitely not all of them:

Agares, the Truth Betrayed formerly an Earth elemental; pretty Neutral.
Balam, the Bitter Angel Binder lore claims she was a Solar, for crying out loud. She's fairly vengeful at this point, but that's because the deities of Good betrayed her and she still hates Evil.
Buer, Grandmother Huntress she's a healer, and has always been. Also a huntress, but that's not evil. She's like a ranger.
Eligor, Dragon Slayer He was a champion of Good and slayer of Evil dragons; the deities of Good than abandoned him to Tiamat. Tiamat managed to convince him to join her over this, but that didn't last very long before he was slain.
Eurynome, Mother of the Material At least according to the legend, she actually created much of the material plane with innocent playing, having tired of fighting. Not exactly Good and definitely Chaotic, but not even remotely Evil.
Focalor, Prince of Tears The legend says he might have been a devil or an angel ("likely a planetar"), but as a being totally consumed with grief, being Evil doesn't seem likely.
Ipos, Prince of Fools He was a scholar, and everything in his legend is True Neutral.
Leraje, the Green Herald Excellent archer and champion of Corellon Larethian (notably a Good elven deity); her story is pretty much Arachne's from Greek myth, except it was an archery contest instead of a weaving contest. She was almost definitely Good, and Corellon Larethian's main problem with her is that she was better than him...
Naberius, the Grinning Hound Basically nothing is known about him, so he's probably best termed Neutral.
Orthos, Sovereign of the Howling Dark same deal as Naberius.
Otiax, the Key to the Gate Much like the Vestiges themselves, the Far Realms are more-or-less devoid of true alignment. Otiax, in particular, doesn't even seem to be a real being, more of an object. Playing with the Far Realms is dangerous, but this seems unlikely to be directly Evil.
Paimon, the Dancer Like many Vestiges, vindictive, but he had every right to it after he was tortured.
Ronove, the Iron Maiden She was a Monk. More Lawful than Good, but definitely not Evil.
Now, becoming a Vestige is an unpleasant thing, and generally requires some weirdness to happen note how many of these were betrayed by both Good and Evil. Andras, the Gray Knight, is sort of an inversion he himself betrayed both Good and Evil. Using Vestiges is definitely a risky thing, dabbling with forces unknown, but it is not inherently Evil at all.

Wyntonian
2011-05-14, 10:38 AM
Veyr, you have mad props for taking all that time to write that. On the other hand, I'd like for these people to not be raising Lovecraftian forgotten gods and cursed angels, or twisted demons of the abyss to be the sources of their powers, but rather their Uncle Dan, who was a pretty badass warrior back in his day. And the point I made about the Vestiges being a negative influence on one's morality is that if one is binding a vestige and loses the check, they would, in Buer's case, have random memory loss. No really a positive influence. Also, I'd rather have vestiges be actually interested in what goes on in the world, especially to their family and their people, but dependent on Binders to be their hands and eyes.

Veyr
2011-05-14, 11:33 AM
Veyr, you have mad props for taking all that time to write that. On the other hand, I'd like for these people to not be raising Lovecraftian forgotten gods and cursed angels, or twisted demons of the abyss to be the sources of their powers, but rather their Uncle Dan, who was a pretty badass warrior back in his day. And the point I made about the Vestiges being a negative influence on one's morality is that if one is binding a vestige and loses the check, they would, in Buer's case, have random memory loss. No really a positive influence. Also, I'd rather have vestiges be actually interested in what goes on in the world, especially to their family and their people, but dependent on Binders to be their hands and eyes.
Oh, I misunderstood. Yeah, Tome of Magic mentions an Adaptation along those lines (not at all detailed, just as an idea). That's a pretty cool idea, but I don't really have any specific thoughts.

Oh wait! If you're making your own Vestiges, this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060324a) might help!

unosarta
2011-05-14, 02:35 PM
Sirion, the Shining One
http://allods-wiki.gpotato.com/images/7/7a/PaladinLightInfusion.png
Sirion, a paladin of the light who was slain by an ambush of demons. As a vestige, he grants those who fight evil the powers of justice.

Vestige Level: 4th
Binding DC: 22
Special Requirements: Yes

Legend: Sirion was a human paladin, extremely powerful and the head of his order. He was said to commune with gods of good and justice almost daily, and that his revelations helped define most of what modern paladins think of as good or right. He was always the first to defend, the bravest, and the one on whom other could count. He never backed down from his promises. He always fought for honor. Thus, it was especially infuriating when, on his way to the king to be anointed by the archbishop of the kingdom, he was slain by a band of demons sent especially to kill him. They ambushed him, lashing him with poisoned chains and knives, slicing him deep. They killed him, and ate his remains, leaving but bones for those who were sent to find him later. The bones themselves had a strange, golden glow that could not be explained by any in the kingdom, not even the archbishop, and they are now kept under the cathedral in the capital city.

Because of his death, his soul went for wanting. It did not have justice, and it could not go to the outer realms, for shame. His soul has been forced to wander, never leaving for the afterlife, alone. Many binders since his death have borrowed his powers, used mostly to fight demons and devils, and evil creatures.

Special Requirements: You must be of the good alignment. You must have never actively harmed an innocent person (I.E. not in self defense, killing someone who has done nothing, etc etc). You must place a small crystal shard in the form of a longsword in the center of Sirion's seal.

Manifestation: The crystal shard glows bright white, and rises up from the ground. It expands until it is about the height of the binder, and then changes shape, to that of a man made of pure, brilliantly white light. The light is so brilliant that you cannot see his face, but you can distinctly see his head move up and down, as if nodding to you.

Sign: Your eyes glow white. They do not provide enough light to see by, and they do not hinder your ability to hide in the dark.

Influence: Sirion, as a vestige, longs for justice. He feels a need to redeem himself, to show his death is not the end. His long, lonely contemplations in the void have caused him to blame himself for his death. He needs to feel as if he is doing what is right. If you fall under Sirion's influence, you must follow the paladin's code, barring the restriction on party member's alignment.

Granted Abilities: Sirion grants the powers of justice that he held in death to those he would empower.

Light of Justice: You may, as a standard action, shoot a beam of light at an opponent within 10 feet per Effective Binder level you possess, as a ranged touch attack. If you hit, that opponent takes 1d4 Divine damage per Effective Binder level you possess, and takes a -3 Sacred penalty on all spot checks and attack rolls. After using this ability, you must wait 5 rounds before using it again.

Crown of Burning Truth: You gain a +5 bonus to all Sense Motive checks and Will saves. You may, as an immediate action, make an additional Will save versus an Illusion effect that is currently affecting you. If you make the will save, the Illusion effect immediately ends. You may only use this ability while conscious, and aware of the Illusion's nature. After using this ability, you must wait 7 rounds before using it again.

Eyes of the Burdened One: You gain Darkvision out to 30 feet, and a +5 bonus on all spot checks.

Holy Vengeance: You gain a +5 bonus on all attack and damage rolls made against evil creatures, and any weapon you wield counts as a Holy weapon when used to attack an evil outsider.

LOTRfan
2011-05-14, 02:35 PM
I haven't heard of most of those vestiges. I assume they are online, or in other supplements. Could you provide links, please? They sound interesting. :smallsmile:

Veyr
2011-05-14, 02:46 PM
I haven't heard of most of those vestiges. I assume they are online, or in other supplements. Could you provide links, please? They sound interesting. :smallsmile:
Are you talking to me? Every vestige I listed is in Tome of Magic.

Wyntonian
2011-05-14, 04:55 PM
Thanks Unosarta, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Did you just make that one up, or was it part of a homebrewed list?

Pyromancer999
2011-05-14, 07:16 PM
Thanks Unosarta, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for. Did you just make that one up, or was it part of a homebrewed list?

Pretty sure he just made it up. Still, fluff's a bit sketchy. Spirits that just wander don't become vestiges. They become ghosts. Sorry, just a tad nit-picky there, but I take fluff seriously, especially for stuff that looks good.

unosarta
2011-05-14, 11:54 PM
Pretty sure he just made it up. Still, fluff's a bit sketchy. Spirits that just wander don't become vestiges. They become ghosts. Sorry, just a tad nit-picky there, but I take fluff seriously, especially for stuff that looks good.

Yes. Also, whaaaat? The fluff states that he blames himself for allowing himself to die (commonly experienced in domestic violence and other cases of frequent violence, this time just applied to a Paladin who "allowed himself to die". However, I would hardly call his experiences in the afterlife "wandering around." He is looking for vengeance, trying to show his true valor by helping others who are good, allowing him his final ascension into the heavens. That hardly seems like wandering. And considering how venerated his remains are in the legend (treated as relics of a saint or other holy creature or person), it isn't hard to say that the combination of his own determination to show his courage and the worship of others boosted him up into vestige-hood.

Epsilon Rose
2011-05-15, 01:10 AM
I seem to recall dantaltion being a collection of dead spirits.
Also, you should be able to get something from here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19539322/lets_make_some_new_vestiges&post_num=451).
I think they have more vestiges than every official source combined... so... yeah.
Happy hunting.

Vauron
2011-05-15, 01:12 AM
Frankly, that sounds more like he would be turned into a solar or other good outsider to act as a champion for good. To compare, Andromalus became a vestige due to renoucing his god, and once his god got the joke, stealing his soul from a god of theft, Andromalus was kept from going to any other god.

Still, whatever works in your campaign. The weakest part of pact magic is how fundamentally linked the fluff was with the idea of 'established religions (and possibly the gods) hate you'.

MeeposFire
2011-05-15, 01:15 AM
I seem to recall dantaltion being a collection of dead spirits.
Also, you should be able to get something from here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19539322/lets_make_some_new_vestiges&post_num=451).
I think they have more vestiges than every official source combined... so... yeah.
Happy hunting.

I was about to post that thread. That was about the only time I used a lot of time on a homebrew nature. I must have made 4-5 vestiges on that list.

My personal favorite of mine was this vestige...

Spinal Tap, The Shark Sandwich

Level 7 (Spinal Tap thinks that it is an 11th level vestige)
Binding DC:34

A loud vestige Spinal Tap gives you great powers over sound itself.

Legend: Nobody is quite sure where Spinal Tap came from. What is known is that it is made of several different beings who utilize strange musical instruments. They are very loud, in fact they are so loud that it is believed that they must be using some magic to amplify the sound. Binders have spent centuries trying to figure out what the lyrics in their song mean but thus far no pattern can be found. One mad binder said he figured out what Spinal Tap was; he said that Spinal Tap was a fictional joke played upon the masses lampooning a group of musicians. Unfortunately everybody thought they were real and somehow this belief was strong enough that they became real (such as Adhan became real in Planescape). The group became unpopular and "died" from lack of thought. Since they were not truly alive they had nowhere to go and became a vestige. All the binders thought this was ludicrous and they laughed at him though Spinal Tap still seems to offer no other clues to its previous life.

Special requirement: You must have at least one percussion instrument, string instrument, or a vocal amplification devise to bind Spinal Tap. Lastly you also need one stone of any size, one dinner roll, and at least a pound of a dense metal. All of these objects are not lost when you bind to Spinal Tap.

Manifestation: First great lights shine from the sky into a dark shadow revealing a giant horned skull. As the light progresses across the shadow a great noise occurs though only the binder can hear it. The light shows off several men in strange outfits playing outrageous instruments, a small 18 inch round stone structure, and various other strange and unnerving things. As the noise gets louder the stage starts to crumble and things go wrong. After everything else has crashed and the music has died the horned skull, broken in many places it may be, flies up and begins bargaining with you.

Sign: Spinal Tap's sign is a bulge in your pants in the crotch area. If you look in your pants there will be a large cucumber in your trousers. This vegetable may be removed but a new one will always take its place and the old cucumber will vanish. If you are wearing no pants the cucumber will float in front of your genitalia as if it was covering you to protect your modesty. The most unusual part (as if it was not strange enough) is that this vegetable will react with anything used to detect metal, magical or otherwise. In addition if you have hair on your head it grows into a glorious Ape Drape.

Influence: Spinal Tap makes you have a strong feeling of being better than anybody else. This also makes you ask unreasonable demands from your party members such as demanding that they heat your bath water with alchemist's fire. They do not have to obey but you must demand. You also vie for creative control in any situation. If someone else was to come up with a plan, for instance, you would have to disagree with it and come up with a new plan. This could even be the same plan but you must try to take credit. Lastly you have an insatiable need to wear tight leather.

Granted Abilities:
Spinal Tap gives you the ability to use their tremendous sound as a weapon, their "great" ability at playing, and their ability to inspire fighting with their sound.

Power Chord: This ability grants the binder a sonic attack. This attack deals 1d4 for every two effective binder levels, though you must hit with a ranged/melee touch attack. After taking damage the target must make a fort save or be deafened for 2 rounds. This attack does full damage to objects and deals double damage to specially vulnerable creatures and objects (such as most glass). This is a standard action to invoke and the maximum range is 11 feat per binder level (treat this as 10 feet per level as the 11th foot is a fake no matter what you believe). Even though it is not required (as supernatural abilities have no explicit components) most binders perform this move by making a wine glass shattering, falsetto using, and mind numbing high note, though others perform a curious mandolin playing motion in the air with no mandolin!

Tune it to 11!: When you use your Power Chord ability you may decide to use this ability to augment its power. This takes no additional action and gives the Power Chord ability the benefit of the empower and maximize supernatural ability feats. After using this ability you may not use it again for 5 rounds.

School of Rock: Spinal Tap teaches you how to perform music though nobody believes that what Spinal Tap wants you to play is actually music. This results in a +16 competence bonus in perform checks with percussion, string, sing, and oration checks. You also have full proficiency with these types of instruments. You can also summon a normal instrument of any type that Spinal Tap gives you a bonus to. If you perform for money these bonuses only apply if you are not influenced by Spinal Tap. If you are influenced by Spinal Tap the bonuses do not apply as the people are put off by the "music" of Spinal Tap.

Inspirational Noise?: Even though most people can not stand Spinal Tap's music it does have a strange effect if used in battle. Spinal Tap can utilize the Inspire Courage, Inspire Greatness, and Inspire Heroics abilities as a bard of your effective binder level. You do not need the ranks in perform to use these abilities. You still have to perform just like a bard does though. The method of performance is up to you though it should be in line with the types of performance that Spinal Tap gives you bonuses on. You may use an ability as long as you like but as soon as you stop the effect only lasts for five more rounds. After you stop performing you may not use this ability for five rounds.

Immunities: Since Spinal Tap is so used to loud noises they give you some of their resistance. You are immune to sonic damage, deafness, and other sound based effects that you do not want to effect you.

Show Stopper: Spinal Tap loves having special effects when they perform and thus gives you the ability to make special effects. You may use ghost noise, prestidigitation, and pyrotechnics as the spells as a supernatural ability at will.

Wyntonian
2011-05-15, 12:32 PM
I love Spinal Tap, so that one's great. Also, thanks Epsilon Rose, that's a great source.

MeeposFire
2011-05-15, 03:55 PM
You can find Spinal Tap and more in that thread. That thread was awesome and still ongoing though it has slowed a lot since then.

Epsilon Rose
2011-05-15, 04:13 PM
You can find Spinal Tap and more in that thread. That thread was awesome and still ongoing though it has slowed a lot since then.

It is? The most recent vestige on the thread I linked is from a year ago.
That said there were some really cool vestiges that were mentioned but never made, so if people are still doing stuff I'd be really happy.

MeeposFire
2011-05-15, 04:18 PM
It is? The most recent vestige on the thread I linked is from a year ago.
That said there were some really cool vestiges that were mentioned but never made, so if people are still doing stuff I'd be really happy.

Well I never said it did not slow down. The 3.5 community on the WotC site is very small now and the part that does homebrewing is even smaller and then you have a subset of that that would be interested doing new vestiges. A year ago is still well within the 4e run so for an old WotC thread that is pretty good (the feact the thread has not been lost like so many others tells you something in fact). But yes if you want a thread that gets consistent traffic this won't be it since many of the old posters don't look there anymore but every once in a while you get something.

Kobold-Bard
2011-05-16, 07:46 AM
There's a whole load of homebrew Vestiges here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19539322/lets_make_some_new_vestiges&post_num=451), most are based on characters or stuff from other media.

It's a bit of a mixed bag in terms of usefulness, but there are definitely some that can be classed as "good" eg. Jedi & Link.