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present
2011-05-14, 11:22 PM
Hi yall, I've been working on an Avatar the Last Airbender tabletop RPG for a while now. I'm building the system from the ground up and I'm just about to the point where I'm starting very very rough play testing. I currently only have water and fire benders testable but I have plans for all 4 elements as well as non-bending abilities.

I'm trying to gauge interest and build a community I guess. Before it's done done it's going to need rigorous play testing and lots of eyes looking it over.

If you all have any questions, comments, suggestions, warnings, or the like I welcome them.

Also, if you know of an Avatar tabletop game that is built to the world already then please let me know.

Absol197
2011-05-15, 03:48 AM
You and I are kindred souls, I think. I've got a similar system going that I'm trying to get critiqued, but it's not very popular...It's around here somewhere. Post some stuff: mechanics or fluff, I'd love to help you out! The world needs more airbender! No one seems interested in mine, so gosh darn it I'm going to get yours going if it kills me! Okay, maybe not that far, but still...

Some starting questions:

1. Are you basing it on a particular system (d20, WoD, etc.)?

2. If d20, is bending going to be skills based, feat based, more similar to the traditional magic system, something else, or a combination?

3. What efforts are you going through to keep benders and non-benders roughly equal in terms of power (this is a tricky point; you need to watch it closely)?

present
2011-05-15, 04:45 AM
1. I'm not basing it on any pre-existing system.

2. It's more similar to feats then anything else.

3. Balance will be the hardest part, for every dimension of the game. The benders and non-benders follow similar rules though, I don't think incorporating them will be too much of a problem.

I read your thread myself. You have a number of good ideas. I didn't feel like d20 could do bending justice however, and I've had some complaints with it for a while, so I figured this would be the best time to try and improve.

I'll try and give you a better idea of where I'm going with my system:

All characters (benders or not) will have 5 stats: focus, spirit power, dexterity, constitution, and knowledge.

Players will use knowledge to learn bending forms and other moves along skill trees (for example, water whip -> water tentacle -> water golem).

Other stats will determine how powerful the bending is. For example, focus will determine how much water a waterbender can control per turn.

Waterbenders will be limited not by how many actions they get each turn, but by how much water they can manipulate. Lets say a water bender can control 10 units of water each turn, she could use 3 for a shield, 2 as a a water whip, and 5 to launch ice needles.

I hope that wasn't confusing, I haven't finished writing it all out nicely yet. I'm resisting dumping mass amounts of less polished information. I'll try and get things like skill trees out for you all to look at and tear apart soon.

Thanks for taking an interest.

Absol197
2011-05-15, 04:52 AM
Most of it makes sense. What sort of dice system are you using for conflict resolution? You need something. d20? d10? d%? d6? Something else? You have to have some sort of dice-system, right? And nearly all of them have some game or other that they're used in, which means that your system will be based on something (even if only technically :smallsmile:). What are you thinking about using for such?

present
2011-05-15, 05:06 AM
Here's where things get fuzzy, I'm trying to balance the game right now, I play tested a fight for the first time tonight and my firebender two shotted my water bender so it needs some work. I'm currently using different dice for different "accuracy" attacks. For example, one needs a 5 or more to succeed in hitting a certain target and fireblast uses a d12, water bullet uses a d10. That's what I used today anyway, but it was, as previously mentioned, massively imbalanced.

Absol197
2011-05-15, 05:14 AM
Hmm...Actually, that sounds rather similar to the Serenity RPG (based on the awesome show Firefly). Basically, you have a die for your ability/attribute, and a die for your skill. Both use different die sizes, based on how good you are: d2, d3, d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d12+d2, etc. So if you've got good agility but are bad with firearms, you might roll 1d10+1d4 (1d10 from your agility + 1d4 from your Firearms skill). Some variant on that might work well for you.

present
2011-05-15, 05:24 AM
That is an interesting idea I'll have to play around with. Currently the difficulty of the challenge (need a 5 or 3 or 8) is dependent on attack vs defense and then each attack is an individual dice. I used to play battle fleet gothic (naval warhammer 40k) and I remember the joy of throwing down like 12 dice for my 12 batteries and I wanted a way to recreate that with a waterbender firing a plethora of ice spikes. I planed to add advanced moves like chi blocking strikes that will only let you roll a d4 for each strike.

Absol197
2011-05-15, 05:29 AM
I would shy away from trying to mirror 40K. A good number of my friends play, and I'll agree that some find it fun, but the amount of time needed to perform one turn, even if you don't have too many units under your control, would take far too long for a story-based RPG. Yes, rolling lots of dice is fun, but if everyone is rolling a dozen dice per roll, then needs to add up everything, and then roll for defense or what not, a battle would slow to a crawl.

Rolling for every single ice spike that get's thrown is a bad idea (at least in my opinion). At higher levels or whatever you're going to call it, that's going to be way to much rolling. There's a reason 3.5 limits the number of attacks that someone can get per turn.

present
2011-05-15, 05:35 AM
Thank you for the advice, I agree I should avoid mirroring warhammer. I do worry that waterbenders in specific will take too long on their turns. I will do my best to try and streamline everything.

Absol197
2011-05-15, 05:40 AM
That was one of the things I was concerned about with the system I was designing. I wanted to make bending take as few rolls as possible, and have as few different abilities (each one able to be used in many different ways) as possible.

You know how long it takes to read through all the different spell descriptions in the PHB. The fewer different abilities there are, the easier and quicker everything goes. A:tLA is a fast-paced show; if you want to do it justice, you need something simple and quick in order to keep that same feeling.

present
2011-05-15, 05:53 AM
I currently have set values for damage, which I hope will speed things up, you just look down at your 7 attacks, see 3 successes and it's 15 damage. As for limited skills, I currently have a firebending skill tree of only 12 forms, and each player will probably only know 3-7 of them. I know if I actually get this going people will add forms like mad but I'm hoping the number of options one has being a stat it will keep things moderately controlled.

ShiningStarling
2011-05-15, 09:08 AM
Hey Guys. This was my most favorite cartoon ever (EVUR!!!) and I hope to see justice done it.:smallsmile:

I think mechanics are the biggest problem here, or simply lack thereof. One I would suggest is a sort of opposing elements theme, to avoid your 2 hit KO scenario above. You mentioned a water shield earlier. With that as a model, you could say that negates all "base damage" from fire bending, and maybe 50% of all others, air and earth. The base damage would be what damage come from the bending itself, like with the two-dice system suggested above. Then the only damage that could be done by fire to someone with a water shield would be based on their "skill damage", also mentioned above.

Anyway, just trying to input usefulness. Let me know if I can help! I really would like to!

Imbasel
2011-05-15, 01:08 PM
Here is an avatar d20 that is an RPG.

http://sites.google.com/site/avatard20/

Absol197
2011-05-15, 03:04 PM
Here is an avatar d20 that is an RPG.

http://sites.google.com/site/avatard20/

Thank you Imbasel, but I'm sure both present and I are aware of the Avatar d20; we simply son't like it for various reasons (Present said speficifcally in his second post that e doesn't want d20 for this). We're trying to develop different systems that better fit what we're looking for.

Also, Present, I think the best idea for you at this time would be to start at the very bottom. Don't try to come up with bending mechanics before you even know how everything else works.

1. Determine your dice system. If you have a loal gaming store, I'd go and check out the Serenity RPG, it seems the closest to what you're trying to do.

2. Determine all types of basic character traits, including attributes (your 5 stats from earlier), health, skills, other attributes (such as feats from 3.5, merits from WoD, or the advantages/complications from Serenity).

3. Establish how characters are built and how they advance (do they advance by level? Are there classes, or do they just select their own abilities when they level? If they don't level, how and when do they spend their Experience? How much, on average, do advantages cost?).

4. Establish combat system, in detail, independent of weapons or bending being used.

5. Then start focusing on specific skill trees. This is more of the "software" of a system. Or, perhaps, it's a program. You can't design a program well if you don't know what operating system it's supposed to work for. You might be designing this system specifically for Avatar, but regardless, it needs to function as its own system before you can add the setting on top of it.

Remeber the old saying, "you gotta walk before you can run." We can't help tweak bending skills if we don't know anything about your system, and you can't make bending skills that will work for your system if you don't have it set up beforehand. Otherwise, you'll need to go back and redesign all of them anyways, as when the system evolves organically (as these things are wont to do), the bending skills you designed earlier will no longer work (I've run into that a few times myself, and I'm basing my system on a heavily established one).

EDIT: Also, ObliviMancer, if you're as big of an Avatar fan as we are, might I ask you to take a peek at my Avatar system, as well? :smallbiggrin: [/samelessselfpromotion]

Partysan
2011-05-16, 11:16 AM
I love this show to pieces, so I will be watching this.

@Absol197: I went to have a look at your take on TLA, but since I don't play Pathfinder (and am somewhat unwilling to learn it) I fear I'll miss a lot of things so I refrain from posting there for now.

DracoDei
2011-05-16, 01:10 PM
Just because you are making something new (New system) doesn't mean that you might not benefit from looking at similar things that have been done in the past (the Avatard20 project).

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-16, 01:18 PM
Just because you are making something new (New system) doesn't mean that you might not benefit from looking at similar things that have been done in the past (the Avatard20 project).

The Avatar d20 project? You mean this one (http://theanteheroes.com/Avatar%20d20/BendingChapter.pdf)?

DracoDei
2011-05-16, 01:22 PM
The Avatar d20 project? You mean this one (http://theanteheroes.com/Avatar%20d20/BendingChapter.pdf)?

Perhaps. There was one that was developed and play-tested (at least partially) on these forums. It was mentioned (and perhaps even linked) above and it was the response to that mentioning that I was, myself, responding to.

Absol197
2011-05-16, 01:27 PM
I love this show to pieces, so I will be watching this.

@Absol197: I went to have a look at your take on TLA, but since I don't play Pathfinder (and am somewhat unwilling to learn it) I fear I'll miss a lot of things so I refrain from posting there for now.

Do you play 3.5? If you do, the only big difference is that the classes get a few more class features.

present
2011-05-16, 04:29 PM
I was originally planning not to post the specific mechanics I'm working on because they are rougher then sand paper and I haven't fully committed to all of them, but people seem really truly curious and may not understand just how deep into this rabbit hole I've fallen. So here we go. Please forgive its rough, unbalanced, messy nature.

Broad Game Mechanics:

Every character (bender or not) is defined by 5 stats:

The spirit/heart stats Focus and Spirit Power. These stats greatly impact bending powers, damage, range, area, things like that.

The physical stats Dexterity and Constitution. These stats greatly impact physical actions, such as dodging, aiming, health, strength.

The mental stat Knowledge. Knowledge is used to learn new forms or abilities. It is used in various skill trees I will detail further below.

players will be given a certain number of stat points with more at each level to distribute however they like.

There are 3 damage types:
Bludgeoning
Cutting/Piercing
Fire/Heat

These will play a large role in breaking down barriers or shields or destroying incoming missiles.

Players will take turns making their actions, much like in D&D, including such gems as readied actions. In addition, players may start an action on one turn, and finish it on another.

Partial values will be rounded down.

Attacking Mechanics

This is the portion of my mechanics I have been most afraid to post because it's the least complete portion and it breaks the mold harder then the rest of my mechanics. As I've already stated this has been play tested as being massively imbalanced, it will probably be massively changed before the final version.

Each character has an attack value and a defense value, for fire benders Dexterity is used for both. Lets assume Zuko, with 20 attack, uses fire strike against someone with 10 defense. We then roll a d12 and consult the below table seeing that since Zuko 10 more attack then they have defense we must roll higher then 3 to hit.

attack-defense.......must roll higher then
25 or more.............1
16 or more.............2
9 or more...............3
4 or more...............4
0 or more...............5
defense-attack
1 or more...............6
4 or more...............7
9 or more...............8
16 or more.............9
25 or more.............10
36 or more.............11

We use this table for all attacks but don't always use d12s for all attacks. Most fire attacks use d12s, most water attacks use d10s, very difficult attacks such as chi blocking strikes might use d4s.

I'm using this system that I'm sure many will have a problem with because I'm using free stat placement and I don't want min-maxing with hitting or dodging to ruin the game. In addition, the use of linear and quadratic mechanics makes "perfect" stat placements impossible.

You might worry this system will be too complicated or take too long but I assure you it was really easy and fast when play testing. Horribly imbalanced, but easy and fast.

Firebender Rules & Skill/Bending Form Tree

I'm only posting the fire tree for now because it is much simpler then the water one. Fire bending is moderately direct while water bending is much more flexible, which makes it more complicated.

All the numbers you see here (like a 5 or a .2) are really placeholders till I can fully balance the game out.

Firebenders get 4 actions per turn, can move 6+.1xDex squares every turn, spread however they like over their turn, have attack and defense equal to Dex, and health equal to 5xCon

In the below section F stands for the Focus stat, P for Spirit Power, C for Constitution, D for Dexterity and K for Knowledge. .2F means .2 multiplied by your character's Focus.

Fire Form/Skill Tree

Fire Strike: Prerequisites-firebender, 1F 5P. Cost- 3K
Takes 1 action. Range=5+.2F. Damage=5+.5P fire damage

Fire Stream: Prerequisites-Fire Strike. Cost- 3K
Takes 2 actions. Range=5+.2F. Damage=5+P fire damage
Hits all squares along attack path.

Fire Knives: Prerequisites-Fire Strike, 5F. Cost-2K
Takes 2 actions.
Creates one or two standard melee weapons that only do fire damage, persists for free as long as no new fire bending forms are used (exception: Breath of Fire actions) [I will address how weapon attacks work later]

Fire Whips: Prerequisites-Fire Knives, Fire Stream. Cost-1K.
Takes 2 actions.
Creates one or two standard whip class weapons that only do fire damage, persists for free as long as no new fire bending forms are used (exception: Breath of Fire actions)

Flame Floor: Prerequisites-Fire Strike. Cost-3K
Takes 2 actions. Range=.2F radius arc (any size). Damage=.5P fire damage to feet. [Not going to go into plans for individual limb damage right now]

Breath of Fire: Prerequisites-Fire Strike, 5C, 5F, 10P. Cost- 8K
Passive ability.
Player may make one additional action per turn so long as it is used for a fire bending form. This action is still available while immobilized.

Explosive Fire: Prerequisites-Breath of Fire, 10F. Cost- 5K
Passive ability.
For every fire damage a fire bending form deals, you may add .2 bludgeoning damage.

Very Explosive Fire: Prerequisites-Explosive Fire, 15F. Cost- 15K
Passive ability.
Reduce fire damage dealt by any fire bending form by up to half of total, for each point of fire damage removed add 2 bludgeoning damage.

Fire Flight: Prerequisites-5F, 10P. Cost- 3K
Takes 2 actions.
Push self .2FP.

Lightning: Prerequisites- 40F. Cost- 25K
Takes 5 actions. Range=50. Damage=20+3P fire damage.

Redirect/Absorb Fire: Prerequisites- 3F. Cost-1K
Takes 1 action. Range=0 (same square).
Reduce fire damage from one attack by .5P.

Redirect Lightning: Prerequisites- Redirect/Absorb Fire, 10F. Cost- 3K
Takes 4 actions. Range=0 (same square).
Reduce fire damage from any number of lightning attacks by 3P. Immediately perform a lightning form for no actions that does 3P damage.

Goodness, that was a lot. I hope you all enjoy.

Absol197
2011-05-16, 06:43 PM
Seeing this, other basic questions need to be asked:

For your five stats, what are the typical ranges? is it like D&D, with a range of 3-18, with 10-11 being average? Is it more like WoD, where 1 is the minimum and 5 the maximum, average of 2-3? Will the stats be ranked by die size, like in the Serenity game?

Once again, how is health calculated? You obviously, in your simulation, had health for the characters, or else how could the firebender have two-shotted the waterbender? Is it based on the character's Constitution? Is there some static value that it is added to?

How about character advancement? How many Attribute points do characters get to start out with? Do they level like in D&D, or do they get free-floating XP, which they can spend on additional skills or increased
atributes? How much would these things cost, on average?

I think you've got a good start here, but don't focus on combat first until you figure out how the actual characters work (unless you already have figured it out, and just haven't told us yet). Create the foundation, then build the house.

EDIT: And trust me, that wasn't a lot. You've seen the posts in my thread; yours is tiny comparatively :smallbiggrin: Maybe that's why no one is responding...

EDIT #2: Just occured to me: currently, you have your difficult system set up for attacking an opponent. However, a game system needs to have a way to overcome challenges that aren't other people. Climbing a cliff, picking a lock, swimming through ragin rapids, etc. I would say, instead of coming up with a combat mechanic, come up with a general system for conflict resolution. Using d20 as an example, their system is 1) roll a d20; 2) add your bonus; 3) Compare to target number. You need a way to establish how target numbers for your system are calculated in general. Once you do that, it will be easy to extend that to combat.

present
2011-05-17, 12:00 AM
For your five stats, what are the typical ranges?
The total number of stat points would depend on the power level of the character. Lets us say a level 1 character has 10 stat points to distribute, a level 10 character has 100 stat points to distribute, the moon spirit possessing the avatar might have 500 stat points total. The stat points don't even need to be distributed evenly at all. A level 10 character could have 90 Focus, 1 Spirit Power, 7 Knowledge, 1 Constitution, and 1 Dexterity if they wanted.
Alternatively, it if proved to be better for the game, or more fun 5 points could be randomly distributed and 5 chosen.
If GMs wanted a low power game they could give the players only 5 points per level, or if they wanted a high power game, 20 per level.
I'm trying to allow flexibility for GMs.


how is health calculated?
Firebenders have health equal to 5xCon, as posted under firebending rules.:smallwink:


How about character advancement?
That's a bit up in the air at this point. I've never liked the system of only advancing based on how much blood you've shed. I would encourage GMs to make it story dependent. That seems to be how it is in the show as well, if we want to follow that.
Also, it doesn't need to be a leveling system, the PCs could just gain one new stat point every day. I actually really like that idea.
Once again I try and give the GMs flexibility on this topic.


currently, you have your difficult system set up for attacking an opponent. However, a game system needs to have a way to overcome challenges that aren't other people.
Yeah, and honestly, I don't plan to hit that stone hard until later, but if you want a system, just use the attack system. I want to climb a cliff, that's a Con check, I have 10 con and that's a challenge 20 cliff, so I have to roll higher then an 8 on my d10 climbing it by hand. Lets say I have climbing gear and they give me +10 effective con for climb checks, now I have to roll higher then a 5.
If you or anyone else have ideas they think would work well in this setting I'm way open to suggestions.

Absol197
2011-05-17, 12:25 AM
The total number of stat points would depend on the power level of the character. Lets us say a level 1 character has 10 stat points to distribute, a level 10 character has 100 stat points to distribute, the moon spirit possessing the avatar might have 500 stat points total. The stat points don't even need to be distributed evenly at all. A level 10 character could have 90 Focus, 1 Spirit Power, 7 Knowledge, 1 Constitution, and 1 Dexterity if they wanted.
Alternatively, it if proved to be better for the game, or more fun 5 points could be randomly distributed and 5 chosen.
If GMs wanted a low power game they could give the players only 5 points per level, or if they wanted a high power game, 20 per level.
I'm trying to allow flexibility for GMs.

Hmm...While I can see the reason behind this, I'm not sure that I like it as a system. There are a couple problems I see:

1: Because a character can, as you said, have 90 in one stat at level 10, with low levels in each of the others, you could end up with characters who very quickly push the limits of what is possible in the world to rediculous extremes. Assuming that an average person in this world is level 1 and has 2 points in each attribute, a person who focuses all their points in Constitution, for example, would be able to withstand a building falling on them, and be able to lift said building over his head and juggle it with relative ease. Obviously the Avatar-verse has some shenanigens, but this pushes it to the extreme.
2: Since you seem to be going for each style is based on a different stat, what's to stop someone from just maxing out the important stat as far as it can go? If they do, they always hit on a 2 or higher. Or, if they max out their defense, no one can hit them. You say you don't want to encourage min/maxing, but it seems this system heartily encourages it.



Firebenders have health equal to 5xCon, as posted under firebending rules.:smallwink:

Ah, yes, perhaps I didn't read thoroughly enough :smallredface:

However, I see a problem with this, too: what happens to non-benders? Do they all get lumped into a category together? So firebenders get 5xC, waterbenders perhaps get 4xC, Earthbenders 6xC, Airbenders 3xC, and non-benders 4xC? So basically the only classes that are worth mentioning as different are those who can bend?
Obviously, you may have different "classes" of the same nature for different kinds of non-benders, but then we get the problem of, "so all benders of the same type are the same?" Just with firebenders, we can see that there are a bunch of different kinds: Zhao and early series Zuko use their physical power, which might be them focusing on Dex or Con. Iroh and Jeong Jeong, on the other hand, use their insight and wisdom to help fight, which would probably better represented as Spirit Power. Azula uses her intelligence as her best asset with which to fight.



That's a bit up in the air at this point. I've never liked the system of only advancing based on how much blood you've shed. I would encourage GMs to make it story dependent. That seems to be how it is in the show as well, if we want to follow that.
Also, it doesn't need to be a leveling system, the PCs could just gain one new stat point every day. I actually really like that idea.
Once again I try and give the GMs flexibility on this topic.

I definitely agree: when I DM, I don't give experience based on combat, but based on how much I think the characters have learned and grown; how much they have experienced. Obviously, any fight is also a learning experience, so they should gain some XP from that, but character development is usually worth just as much, if not more, to me.
A stat point every day (if you mean in-game day) seems like too much to me. Yes, every season of the show shows us a lot of growth from the characters in terms of abilities, but each of the seasons involves at least 3 months of time passing. Most of it just gets glossed over as uneventful travel time.



Yeah, and honestly, I don't plan to hit that stone hard until later, but if you want a system, just use the attack system. I want to climb a cliff, that's a Con check, I have 10 con and that's a challenge 20 cliff, so I have to roll higher then an 8 on my d10 climbing it by hand. Lets say I have climbing gear and they give me +10 effective con for climb checks, now I have to roll higher then a 5.
If you or anyone else have ideas they think would work well in this setting I'm way open to suggestions.

That makes sense. I guess that works.

present
2011-05-17, 02:36 AM
As for min-maxing, I worry about it a lot and I built in a couple mechanics to hopefully try and dampen it.
First of all, the to hit system has a quadratic component, so they need 49 (a lot) higher attack then defense to always dodge on a d12 there's more then one way to beat the system. Lets say I did my math perfectly so I maxed out my damage and can one shot people but everything else got left by the way side. Another character then might have distributed their stats so that they are fast and have a long range. They can just keep running and shooting you till you die. Lets say you are a super dodging min-maxer and you are fighting a water bender who can heal more damage per turn then you can physically deal, you are doomed, but the massive damage dealer will 2 hit KO her. So yeah, I can build a character that hard counters any other character, but none that counter all builds.

There might be some moderately ridiculous feats but I mean Hipo can bite through rocks, the Yu Yan archers can split their own arrows multiple times. If benders and non-benders are going to be balanced sometimes the non-benders have to break the laws of physics too. I don't think anyone should be able to juggle houses though. I understand your concerns, but I think it will be fine.

The system discourages hard min-maxing, but I do expect certain strategies or styles will favor one stat very strongly and other stats will hardly matter. For example, as a broad statement Spirit Power is better then Constitution for firebenders, but you need to put some into Con or you will get one shotted.

I'm thinking everyone will have 5xCon and a speed of 6+.1Dex. That just happened to get mixed in with the other firebender specific info. Sorry for the confusion.

Can't you see how each firebending character fits into the system? Combustion Man did the bare minimum to get very explosive fire, then dumped into Spirit Power, which is one build that maximizes damage. Azula has high Knowladge and Focus for a fire bender, that's how she was able to master lightning. Zuko never had enough Focus to learn lighting, he's a more well rounded character with a lot of Spirit Power (a sensible thing for a fire bender). I tried my best to make it so there is no character in the show that can't be built with my system.

present
2011-05-17, 02:48 AM
Let me know if I can help! I really would like to!

Thanks ObliviMancer, if you could give me feedback and let me know what you do/don't like that'd be great. Later I'm sure there will be lots of hardcore play testing that I will absolutely need help with.

present
2011-05-20, 05:29 PM
I've been running some more tests and I think min-maxing will still be a big problem, so I'm thinking that players will get xp and spend it on points in the flowing manner: each point of increase will cost 1xp in the 1-10 range, 2xp in the 11-20 range, 3xp in the 21-30 range and so on. I hope this will be enough... I really don't want to cut into the flexibility any more then I have to.

Absol197
2011-05-21, 12:31 AM
I've been running some more tests and I think min-maxing will still be a big problem, so I'm thinking that players will get xp and spend it on points in the flowing manner: each point of increase will cost 1xp in the 1-10 range, 2xp in the 11-20 range, 3xp in the 21-30 range and so on. I hope this will be enough... I really don't want to cut into the flexibility any more then I have to.

I think that should definitely help. I'm still not a fan of the uncapped stats, but I can see where you're going with it, and with this XP system, my worries are much less likely to be justified. Let us know as you get more of your system hammered out.

present
2011-05-24, 01:57 PM
I'm encountering a conundrum and I'd like everyone's help. I'm working on the mechanics for immobilization (for example, ice prison, earth prison, things that surround and hold you preventing movement). Immobilization prevents taking actions (except breath of fire and a couple other exceptions). I want to incorporate a Con. check to break out of them, but don't think that my quadratic mechanics fit. With those mechanics one almost always has a pretty decent chance to succeed. Immobilizations seem like they are a lot harder to break out of then that though. The only time I can think of someone breaking out in the show is Zuko breaking out of Katara's in The Siege of the North. I've also got a mechanic where the immobilizing structure can be damaged to the point of being destroyed and this is honestly how I account for Zuko's escape.

Should I scrap the Con. check to break immobilization? I feel like immobilization is too powerful then and immobilized players will be bored. Should I change it to a linear system? Require 3 successful saves? Leave it and ignore how it is inaccurate to the show?

I'd appreciate some advice, thanks.

Absol197
2011-05-25, 01:09 AM
I'm encountering a conundrum and I'd like everyone's help. I'm working on the mechanics for immobilization (for example, ice prison, earth prison, things that surround and hold you preventing movement). Immobilization prevents taking actions (except breath of fire and a couple other exceptions). I want to incorporate a Con. check to break out of them, but don't think that my quadratic mechanics fit. With those mechanics one almost always has a pretty decent chance to succeed. Immobilizations seem like they are a lot harder to break out of then that though. The only time I can think of someone breaking out in the show is Zuko breaking out of Katara's in The Siege of the North. I've also got a mechanic where the immobilizing structure can be damaged to the point of being destroyed and this is honestly how I account for Zuko's escape.

Should I scrap the Con. check to break immobilization? I feel like immobilization is too powerful then and immobilized players will be bored. Should I change it to a linear system? Require 3 successful saves? Leave it and ignore how it is inaccurate to the show?

It is actually more common in the show than you think. Azula broke out of Toph's earth-handcuffs quite easily; there are other instances as well, but I can't think of them right now. I'd keep the Con check. Basically, give the entrapping element or whatever hit points, and then make the chance to break it similar to however you have unarmed strikes work. Basically, the person who is trapped can burst the trap by breaking it, or they can wriggle their way out with a Dex check.

You should probably give the entrapping ability some kind of hardness/damage reduction, based on the substance (ice would be easier to damage than rock, obviously), and give the trapped character a penalty on damaging it (it's easier for their friends who arn't trapped to hack up the trap, but the trapped character doesn't have the movement/leverage to do so easily): that way, a lower level character is quite likely to be trapped and unable to escape from a grappling-technique, but a higher level charcter (say, Azula?) could do so fairly easily.

TrueLazy
2011-05-25, 04:56 PM
Love Avater and it's world, so interested how this all turns out.
Sorta quick read through most posts here, will perhaps do a better check of everything when I got the time to do so .

For now I did like to mention two things that I did saw in my quick scan and, I think, should be changed/included into the game mechanics as well.


1.

You mention 3 damage types, which cover a big area. While at first I had no problem with those 3, you mention right after that the damage type play a big role in breaking/destroying (and I assume penetrating as well) shields, barriers, missles and alike.

This all makes sense, buut.. if it plays a big role there then one shouldn't put piercing and cutting as 1 type. They are such different damaging types that I do believe each deserve it's own damage section, even more if it's going to play a important role.

For example, one can cut down certain missle attacks (I assume) to stop/block the attack, but pierce them to do the same...?
Or slashing through a earth shield, quite a strenght feat, but with piercing it's most likely less troublesome to get through it. (still not easy ofc)

This different kind of damage doesn't only play a important role in varios bending attacks and defends, but also (if you include it) on weapon wielders. Which I see as just the more reason to count those two as seperate damage types.


2.

Your third damage type is Fire/Heat, nothing wrong with that at all, anything but.
Though, if you include that as damage type, then shouldn't one include cold as well from ice bending? I know it isn't such a main type of bending as fire, but still important.

Example would be to freeze a water based attack that comes at you, you can see this as doing at least x cold damage on the water to succeed.
Also, I always thought that one could counter/cancel fire with ice in Avatar, as long as you had the upper hand in strenght. (I see Fire/Heat > Cold/Freezing)

Of course Cold/Freezing damage won't play such a big role as Fire/Heat (most likely), but I thought it would be best to include it as well into the game mechanics.


As for the immobilization, I find Absol's solution rather direct, "simple" and a good one to the problem.


Anyways, my two cents on this so far. Not much, I guess, nor something you should abide by in any way. Your choice to do with it whatever you like.

DoomHat
2011-05-25, 05:33 PM
As someone whoís been putting a preposterous amount of time and effort into studying RPG design and its myriad of approaches Iíd like to warn you against diving into all this technical business before youíve answered the truly important questions about your game.


From the Vault: Design (2006... possibly earlier?)
Game Elements
Die mechanics and task resolution is the meat and drink of the amateur game designer. Go to any discussion board and check out the game design threads. The majority of them are going to sound like this:

"Should I use die pools in my game?"
"I'm thinking of going with a combination of percentile dice and use polyhedra for damage."
"Should I use a roll-over or a roll-under system?"
"How can I make my game more lethal?"
All this is fine and good and warrants some thought, but most people seem to start out with these questions in mind rather than what I consider to be the real issues at hand. Don't confuse Game Elements with Game Systems. And don't confuse Game Systems with Rules.

Game Elements: dice, miniatures, character sheets, character creation rules, spell lists...in short, everything in the game. Even GM's and players! Note that a Game System is just another element of the game.

Game Systems: a laid-out set of rules on how game elements interact with a complement one another. The System is not the The Rules. The Rules tell you how to play the game...how to use the various systems in the game.

The First Law of RPG Design (formerly known as "Ebert's First Law" as applied to games rather than film)
"A game is not about what it is about, but how it is about it."

The Big Three Questions
The Big Three Questions all pertain to the First Law and all contribute to the focus of the game before pen is even set to paper. If you can't answer these three questions, then your game is not going to turn out well.

WHAT IS YOUR GAME ABOUT?
If you write a D&D clone, your game is not about "adventuring in a medieval fantasy world." Your game is about characters advancing in efficacy in order to meet greater and greater challenges. Do not confuse the genre, setting or color details with what's most important: the premise and structure of the game.

HOW DOES IT GO ABOUT THAT?
If you're designing that D&D clone and you put in a lifepath system as part of character creation, what does that accomplish? In order to fufill the requirements set my the first question, you must "put your money where your mouth is" with the discrete game elements. If that lifepath is purely cosmetic and doesn't affect the character's abilities or the game mechanics, then why is it in there?

WHAT BEHAVIORS DOES IT REWARD AND/OR ENCOURAGE?
The obvious game element to focus on as a "reward" is some kind of character advancement system. But this can go the other way as well; what behaviors does the game punish and/or discourage? If the ultimate goal of Call of Cthulhu is to die or go insane, does the game encourage this? Do insane characters get special abilities? Or is running/fighting rewarded and encouraged (as it is in Dungeons & Dragons)?

The Rule of Jared (coined by Kirt "Loki" Dankmyer)
Only roll the dice when it's important.

The Mearls Paradox
A roleplaying game that is "complete" (meaning no further explanation, rules or interpretation is required) is not a roleplaying game at all.

Jared's Rule of Combat
Fight scenes have to be exciting. Combat doesn't have to be.

If you want to play a game that encourages interesting fight scenes, play a game that encourages interesting fight scenes. Either one emphasizing style over tactics (octaNe, Wushu) or one where "a fight" is interesting because the mechanics make you feel engaged (Riddle of Steel, Burning Wheel).

If physical conflict is just an obstacle to be overcome somehow (Dungeons & Dragons), then the emphasis is in overcoming that obstacle and finding out what lies beyond it -- be it temporal reward (treasure, XP's, magic items) or a story-related reward (you resuce the princess or vanquish the Lich Lord). Combat is seen as a challenge, a kind of visceral puzzle, one that rewards strategic thinking and problem solving ability. Play the game you want to play!

Jared A. Sorensen

present
2011-05-25, 07:53 PM
one shouldn't put piercing and cutting as 1 type. They are such different damaging types that I do believe each deserve it's own damage section, even more if it's going to play a important role.
I toyed with this idea for a long time, but I'm moderately confident in my choice. First of all, I'm trying to make things as simple as possible, and having only a damage type that is force over small area (piercing/cutting) or force over a large area (bludgeoning) seemed simplest. Secondly, there is the grey area I worry about, swords can do piercing and cutting, when Katara shot those ice disks at Master Pakku is that the same attack as the ice needles we often see? Should I then make strong gusts of wind (airbending) its own damage type since it is quite different from a hammer?
I guess my motivation for combining the two was a desire to streamline, and I didn't really feel like I lost much. As development continues I may come to see the separation as being more necessary. If that happens I don't think it should be too hard to add.


Your third damage type is Fire/Heat, nothing wrong with that at all, anything but.
Though, if you include that as damage type, then shouldn't one include cold as well from ice bending? I know it isn't such a main type of bending as fire, but still important.
I, for a long time, planned for heat and cold to be the same damage type since they are both resisted by the same thing (good insulators). I eventually decided that I could simplify the game by scrapping cold and loose almost nothing in the game proper. In my original design cold damage was only done by a couple waterbending moves. I still play with adding it again sometimes but it just seems like a lot of added complexity, confusion, and work for the players for hardly any game improvement.

Absol197
2011-05-25, 11:52 PM
Besides, what is "cold damage" anyways? It's damage caused by the lack of heat. An icicle that slams through your chest doesn't damage you because it's cold, it damages you because you've got an icicle in your chest! That would be piercing damage (to use a D&D term).

In the Avatar system I'm making (based on 3.5), the only attacks that deal cold damage are a firebending attack that steals heat from a target, and a waterbending technique called "Freeze the Blood" that's a blending of bloodbending and freezing water. Any attack made by ice is simply from the physical trauma, not from cold.

For your system, I could definitely see cold damage being a part of Fire/Heat damage, only it's the lack of heat. I wouldn't think, with your focus on simplicity, that you'd need to add another damage type at all. In your description of that damage type (when you get around to full descriptions), just make the note that it also deals with cold, as well.

All this said, I think you should listen to Doomhat: those are exactly the questions you need to consider first.

TrueLazy
2011-05-26, 10:40 AM
I see where your damaging type classification is coming from and can't do much else but agree with it. It's simpler to not make another sort of damage type and as long as the system still works properly (which you are going for ofc.. ;p) it will not be a big deal either.
It was just something I noticed in my quick observation of the posts and the system, nothing less or more.

And yup, the question list in DoomHat's post are pretty important to work out first. I think I have used that list myself before as well, useful either way to go through.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-05-26, 07:23 PM
It is actually more common in the show than you think. Azula broke out of Toph's earth-handcuffs quite easily;

That was the Dai Li agents, using their earthbending. If you're talking about The Day Of Black Sun.

Absol197
2011-05-26, 11:30 PM
That was the Dai Li agents, using their earthbending. If you're talking about The Day Of Black Sun.

Yes, Day of the Black sun, but after that; when Toph pins her against the wall during the eclipse. Just after the eclipse ends, she says, "Oh, sounds like the firebending is back on!" throws some flame around to get Sokka to back off, and then proceeds to BREAK THROUGH STONE WITH HER BARE HANDS (well, with a little firebending help; but not much, really).

The Dai Li agents were already beaten and unconscious at that point.

present
2011-05-27, 01:29 PM
WHAT IS YOUR GAME ABOUT?

This is one of those questions Iím scared of answering because I worry it will scare away people who might really enjoy the game before they get a chance to see it. But what the hell, itís story time.

This little project of mine began when I first watched Katara and Master Pakku duel. I looked at that and I said to myself, ďI need to organize that into a system of rules.Ē because thatís how my brain works. So, yeah, the project originated purely as a 1v1 waterbender strategy dueling game. Once my mind got working though I kept thinking about how firebenders would work and non-benders and soon a full game began to take shape. I looked around for other Avatar games for inspiration and found that there wasn't a single one I felt did justice to the Avatar world. I decided then I would try and make the game that Avatar deserved. Now this is the part Iím scared to type: If I had to say what my game is most about, itís about bending battles. The strength of my game over others is that it will (hopefully) have fast paced, well balanced, strongly strategy oriented fights that mirror battle in Avatar: The Last Air Bender.

That isn't to say I don't care about the RPing elements of the RPG, it's just that I don't feel like players need my help with that as much. The thing that makes the Avatar world special isn't the social structures or the ways that characters interact, it's the bending, particularly the bending in the context of combat. If what you want to do is RP within the Avatar world you don't need any rules or mechanics from me. World building is the writers of the show and the GMs job, I don't want to interfere.

To clarify, my end goal isn't a battle system, it's a full, fleshed out RPG. I just feel like the battle system is the first step. Maybe I'm a fool for thinking so. This is my time trying to design a system.

As for what behaviors my game rewards/encourages, I'd first have to ask the question, what the rewards are. I hope the game will be fun and that in and of itself will be a reward. Death is pretty obviously negative reward though, so things that discourage death will be planning, strategy, using terrain, predicting your opponent's actions, practice at the game, and moderate meta-game knowledge. Because of this I'm sad to say is that I doubt little kids will be able to walk up to this game and pick it up easily. I starting gaming back in early grade school, and there is a large young fan base for the show... I really hope tikes will able pick it up though. If they can't, I'll probably work on making a simplified version after I finish the official one.

Dr.Epic
2011-05-27, 01:31 PM
You have no idea how glad I was that this is about Avatar the Last Airbender and not Dances with Smurfs.

present
2011-05-28, 02:36 AM
Here we go, the incredibly rough version of the waterbender rules! I hope it's not too confusing. I'm posting the basic mechanics again along with it along with some other stuff.

I'll be posting a play by play encounter once I polish a bit more, hopefully you will all see how I think it's supposed to go then. ^_^

I'm planing on creating a Wiki or something with which to organize all the info better, any advice on which service to use? Thanks.

Broad Game Mechanics:
Every character (bender or not) is defined by 5 stats:

The spirit/heart stats Focus (abbreviated F) and Spirit Power (abbreviated P). These stats greatly impact bending powers, damage, range, area, things like that.

The physical stats Dexterity (abbreviated D) and Constitution (abbreviated C). These stats greatly impact physical actions, such as dodging, aiming, health, strength.

The mental stat Knowledge (abbreviated K). Knowledge is used to learn new forms or abilities. It is used in various skill trees I will detail further below.

There are 3 damage types:
Bludgeoning
Cutting/Piercing
Fire/Heat

These will play a large role in breaking down barriers or shields or destroying incoming missiles.

Players will take turns making their actions, much like in D&D, including such gems as readied actions. In addition, players may start an action on one turn, and finish it on another.

Conditions

Limb Damage: There are 3 specific targets: legs/feet, right arm, left arm. Damage applied to one limb counts toward total damage but may also have other effects. If a limb takes damage equal to Con it becomes damaged, this has specific effects.

Damaged legs/feet: move speed drops to 1, jump checks always count as 1.

Damaged right arm/hand: loose 2 actions per turn, items being held in the right hand arenít usable. Does not cause automatic drop.

Damaged left arm/hand: loose 2 actions per turn, items being held in the left hand arenít usable.

Anchoring: the player may not take move actions and defense is halved.

Immobilization: The player may not take any actions or move, defense is reduced to 0.

Breaking anchoring & immobilization: Once every round (not necessarily during your turn) you may make a con save against it, if you succeed you are freed from the condition and it has no effect.

Resisting pushes: [still working on, sorry]

Jump checks: [still working on this too... sorry]

Partial values will be rounded down.

The game is played on a square grid. (I toyed around with other systems but I need 3D movement since some can fly and hexs don't work as well for that)

Waterbender Rules
Waterbenders get 4 actions per turn, can move 6+.1Dex squares every turn, spread however they like over their turn, have attack equal to Focus, defense equal to Dex, and health equal to 5Con.

Waterbenders may add P to Con checks to break out of immobilizations and anchors made of a substance they can bend.

Waterbenders have to keep track of a value other benders donít, this is their available water units. This means how much water they have available to bend. Water units come in 3 varieties, water, ice, and vines. Water units can be expended by using a move that throws or pushes water away, or because the water is destroyed, like by fire. A waterbender say, standing in a river will never run out of water units (of the water variety), in a jungle will never run out of water units (of the vine variety), while a waterbender on an airship with only two flasks of water must keep track of where it all goes. 1 water unit is approximately equivalent to a gallon of water.

Each turn a waterbender can only manipulate/control an amount of water units equal to their Focus. If they use actions to perform actions other then waterbending this uses up part of their focus and they loose their ability to manipulate/control 1/4 of their Focus worth of water. Usually, waterbenders will have to keep track of how many water units they can still control, and not how many actions they have left.

Each unit of water has 6 health and may take damage as a shield, projectile, or anything else. No water unit may take more then 6 damage, if more then 6 damage is dealt the rest of the damage continues on to the next water unit or target. The different types of water take damage according to the below table.

Water:
1/2 damage from fire but is expended.
x2 damage from cutting/piercing
x2 damage from bludgeoning

Ice:
Normal damage from fire
1/2 damage from cutting/piercing
x2 damage from bludgeoning

Vines:
Normal damage from fire
x2 damage from cutting/piercing
1/2 damage from bludgeoning

Waterbender Skill/Bending Form Tree:
X is a place holder for whatever value the player chooses, F stands for Focus, P stands for Spirit Power, D stands for Dexterity, C stands for Constitution, K stands for Knowledge.

Waterbend: Prerequisites-waterbender, 1F. Cost- 1K
Uses X water units (water). Range=6+.1P.
Move X water units of water up to 6+.1P. This can be used to gather water to add to your available water units.

Icebend: Prerequisites-waterbend, 1F. Cost- 3K
Uses X water units (ice). Range=6+.1P.
Move X water units of ice up to 6+.1P. This can be used to gather ice to add to your available water units. You may change any of your water units to ice or ice units to water.

Vinebend: Prerequisites-waterbend, 1F. Cost- 2K
Uses X water units (vine). Range=6+.1P.
Move X water units of vines up to 6+.1P. This can be used to gather vines to add to your available water units.

Water Shield: Prerequisites- Waterbend, 3F. Cost- 2K
Uses X water units (water, ice, or vine). Range=0 (your square).
Roll Xd6, this is the amount of damage the water shield may take from the attack.

Water Whip: Prerequisites- Waterbend, 2F. Cost- 3K
Uses 2 water units (water or vine). Range=3. Damage=5+.1P bludgeoning damage.

Tentacle: Prerequisites- Water Shield, Water Whip, 5F, 4P. Cost- 5K
Uses 5 water units (water or vine). Range=2. Damage=7+.2P bludgeoning damage.
2 of these water units may also be used for Water Shield.

Water Golem: Prerequisites- Tentacle, 10F, 5C. Cost- 10K
Uses 10+X water units (water or vine). Range=2+.2X. Damage=4X+.2PX bludgeoning damage.
All 10+X of these water units may also be used for Water Shield.

Water Bullet: Prerequisites- Waterbend, 5P. Cost- 2K
Uses 1 water unit (water or ice). Range=5+.5P. Damage=2+.1P bludgeoning damage (water) or 3+.1P cutting/piercing damage (ice).
This water unit is expended.

Water Push: Prerequisites- Water Bullet, 8P. Cost- 2K
Uses X water units (water, ice, or vine). Range=10. Damage=X+.1PX bludgeoning damage. (this damage is optional)
Target is pushed X+.1PX and X water units are expended (water or ice). Target is pulled X+.1PX and no water units are expended.

Waterslide: Prerequisites- Waterbend. Cost- 1K
Uses 1 water unit (water). Range= 3.
Create 2 squares that can only be moved through in a strait line at double speed. This water unit is expended.

Ice Ramp: Prerequisites- Waterslide. Cost- 1K
Uses 1 water unit (ice). Range=3.
Add a turn or jump to your waterslide.

Ice Launch: Prerequisites- Ice Ramp, 5P. Cost- 3K
Uses X+3 Water units (ice). Range=.5P.
[aids in jump checks or forces other to make a jump, havenít worked out mechanics for jump check yet].
Target must already be standing atop ice.

Heavy Water Feet: Requirements- Waterslide. Cost- 1K
Uses 2 water units (water, ice, or vine). Range=0 (your square)
Add 15 (water) or 30 (ice or vine) to effective con. To resist pushes.

Heavy Water Feet Attack: Requirements- Heavy Water Feet. Cost- 2K
Uses 2 water units (water, ice, or vine). Range=5+.2P.
Anchors (prevents movement and lowers defense). 5+.5P con check (water) or 20+.5P con check (vine or ice) ends anchoring. Heavy water feet can be attacked and is destroyed when reduced to 0 water units. These water units are expended.

Water Prison: Requirements- Heavy Water Feet Attack, 10P. Cost- 5K
Uses X+10 water units (water, ice, or vine). Range=5+ .2P.
Immobilizes (prevents movement and taking actions). 5+X+.5P con check (water) 20+X+.5P con check (vine or ice) ends immobilization. Water Prison can be attacked and when reduced to 10 or less water units it is destroyed. These water units are expended.

Water Crush: Requirements- Water Prison. Cost- 3K
Uses Water Prison target water units. Range=5+.2P.
Unit inside target water prison takes automatic P+.2PX bludgeoning damage. Optionally, Water Crush may do additional damage equal to the number of hit points remaining in the Water Prison, if so, Water Prison is destroyed.

Ice Spike Floor: Requirements- Water Slide. Cost- 3K
Uses 1 water unit (ice). Range=5+.2P.
Creates 2 squares of ice spikes. Ice spikes causes 5 cutting/piercing damage to feet for every square moved through. This water unit is expended.

Snow Catch: Requirements- Icebend, 5F. Cost- 2K
Uses X water units (ice). Range= 5+.2P.
Reduce damage from a fall ending in this square by 5X.

Water Pillar: Requirements- Water Shield. Cost- 2K
Uses 5 water units (water, ice, or vine). Range= 6+.1P.
Create a water pillar, it blocks line of sight and intercepts projectiles. Ice or vine pillars may persist for free, but if so the water units are expended.

Fog: Requirements: Waterbend, 5P. Cost- 1K
Uses 1 water unit (water). Range= 5+.2P.
Create 4 squares of fog. Fog squares block line of sight.
This water unit is expended.

Water Drain: Requirements: Vinebend. Cost- 1K
You may change any of your vine water units into water.

Bloodbending: Requirements: Water Drain, 30P. Cost- 25K
Uses con value of target water units (blood). Range= .1P. Damage=P.
Target is Immobilized and you can push the immobilized target .2P squares on their turn. .5P (3P under a full moon) con check ends immobilization. You may add .5P (3P under a full moon) to con checks against bloodbending.

Heal: Requirements: 3F, 3P. Cost- 3K
Each day a total of 10+2P+2K damage can be healed. This can only be performed outside of combat.

Major Heal: Requirements: Heal, 10P. Cost- 5K
Each day an additional 50 damage can be healed.

Targeted Healing: Requirements: Heal, 10F. Cost- 2K
Healing can be specifically applied to one limb.

Revive: Requirements: Major Heal, Targeted Healing, 50K. Cost- 10K
Target can be healed from damage past the point of death so long as death happened less then K minutes ago.

Rapid Heal: Requirements: Heal, 10P, 10F. Cost- 5K
Takes 2 actions. Range= 1 (touch) Damage=P healing.

Reactive Healing: Requirements: Rapid Heal, 15F. Cost- 10K
Healing may be applied to self as damage is done, for no actions.

Ranged Healing: Requirements: Rapid Heal, 15P. Cost- 5K
Range for healing forms is increased to 6+.1P.

Example Turn:
This example is deliberately complicated, it doesn't always have to be this hard.

Katara has 50 Focus so she can manipulate 50 water units (wu) per turn. She already has 30 water units worth of ivy (vine) and 10 water units worth of water in her canteens. There is a pond 20 squares away. Her enemy is 1 square away. She can move 7 squares per turn.

30wu(vine)- Water Golem *attack*

1wu (water)- Water Slide

1 move [moves 2 squares along the water slide]

*repeat last two actions 6 more times so she moves a total of 14 squares and uses a total of 7wu*

20wu (water)- water bend [draws water from the pond]

readied actions:

transforms 3wu of water to ice for free &
3wu (ice)- Ice Spike Floor [creates 6 squares of spike floor] *condition: opponent uses Water Slide*

30wu(vine)-water shield *condition: attacked*

In this turn Katara, then used waterside so that she would be close enough to gather more water, then gathered more water and got ready to defend from any attacks as well as try and punish her opponent if they use the water slide by putting 6 squares of ice spikes along it. She will begin the next turn with 30wu (vine) and 20wu (water) available if her opponent uses the water slide or 23wu (water) if they don't.

TheShroud
2012-06-09, 09:03 PM
hey new to the site actually joined because of this post. wondering if there has been any new updates to this? and if so how has it worked? I have a step daughter who huge Avatar fan (I got her hooked) and she is only 4 but figured could start teaching her RPGs. plus got a few bodies that wouldnt mind trying it out too.