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Solaris
2011-05-14, 11:56 PM
Cervitaur
Cervitaurs are primitive sylvan creatures who combine aspects of deer with humanoids in much the same way centaurs combine horses with humanoids.

Personality: Cervitaurs are skittish creatures. Though not necessarily cowardly, they much prefer flight to fighting. This has led to them preferring passive and passive-aggressive responses. Cervitaurs dislike and fear predators, and though most can learn to tolerate dogs they have a deep-seated fear of wolves that borders on the phobic. Shy and quiet around strangers, cervitaurs are nonetheless quite friendly with people they've gotten to know.

Physical Description: A cervitaur buck weighs anywhere from one hundred and thirty pounds to three hundred pounds, while a doe stands weighs from ninety to two-hundred pounds. Both genders are of about the same length and height, ranging from five to seven feet in length and four and a half to five and a half feet tall. The cervitaur's lower body has soft brown fur, often dappled white, with a white-tipped tail and cloven hooves. It is more reddish-brown in the spring and summer, turning grey-brown throughout the fall and winter. Some have entirely black fur, while rare cervitaurs have entirely white fur. White-furred cervitaurs typically only survive in the more powerful tribes due to how easily predators can pick them off. A cervitaur's fur and hair get shaggier and greyer with age, though most age rather gracefully they tend to put on weight and bulk up as they get older.
A cervitaur has four stomachs like a deer, a set of lungs in each torso, and a single powerful heart in the humanoid torso. Omnivores who eat small birds and trapped rodents in addition to their preferred leaves, acorns, fruit, cereal grains and corn, cervitaurs can also subsist on grass and hay though they dislike it. They can eat pretty much a human can eat and then some, able to tolerate even poisonous mushrooms and plants. They are similarly resistant to venomous attacks and poisons in general despite being rather frail.
Cervitaur hair matches the color of their fur, though it grows continuously rather than shedding and thus has alternating bands of reddish and greyish brown down the length of it. Their hair often has one or two white streaks. A buck cervitaur has branching antlers that grow throughout his life, while a fawn or doe has little nubs resembling small goat horns. Neither gender sheds their antlers normally, but a buck who loses an antler sheds the other and regrows them both over the course of a month or so. Cervitaur faces are elfin, with large, dark eyes, high cheekbones, and narrow jaws and noses. Their ears are leaf-shaped, with pointed tips. Bucks grow facial hair, typically full beards. Their humanoid torsoes lack fur though bucks sometimes have heavy body hair. They are slenderly built compared to humans, proportioned rather like teenagers. They have golden-tan skin, tanning dark bronze with the summer sun.
Cervitaurs wear simple garments made of fur and leather, decorating them with turkey and hawk feathers, stone beads, and carved wood. They rarely cover up their lower bodies, as their fur provides them all the insulation they need, but they wear shirts and jackets on their upper bodies in the winter months. Cervitaur bucks and fawns only wear shirts when they need to, whereas does almost always wear a tunic or mantle. Cervitaur armor is made of segmented bone woven together with strips of cloth, and their weapons are bows and spears. They wear quivers on their hips, and instead of backpacks have something very similar to saddlebags and pack saddles.
A cervitaur is mature at fifteen years old, and they can live up to a hundred and sixty years though most will die before their first century. A doe's pregnancy lasts for eight months, though she is little inconvenienced until the last few weeks. A pregnant doe can still run and fight, and a fawn can walk within hours of birth and run within a day though they spend most of their first six months to a year in their parents' hut, in a grass nest. After that, they range more freely though still under the care of their elders. Does give birth to one to three fawns, though single births are becoming more and more common.

Relations: Unlike most humanoid races, cervitaurs are not at the top of the food chain. Wolves, big cats, gnolls, goblinoids, and other creatures prey on them. Even unscrupulous humans can sometimes hunt cervitaurs for venison. They are suspicious of outsiders, and because they're so reclusive and the Great Forest so remote the cervitaurs have little contact with outsiders.

Alignment: Cervitaurs are goodnatured people, though their frequently troublesome encounters with others have left them wary. They are most commonly neutral or chaotic good.

Cervitaur Lands: Cervitaurs live in the the Great Forest of the Forest Queen, with some colonizing the Northwood and Dunwood as well. They have established small villages in the forest where they dwell in wooden huts with thatched roofs and tend to small fields of corn, squash, beans, and wheat. Wooden palisades surround cervitaur villages, protecting them against wild animals and raiders both cervitaur and humanoid. Cervitaurs also hunt and gather from the forest to supplement their diet. Their native technology is primitive, only late in the Stone Age, with flint arrowheads and cold-worked copper being the pinnacle of their native development. Cervitaurs set aside grains and dried food to store in underground clay jars, but winters are still hard for them. Cervitaurs have no domesticated animals. A tribe consists of one or more villages, depending on the strength of the stag-chieftain. Chieftains lead the bucks of a tribe into war and preside over the ceremonies, including the important harvest festival.
There are about six hundred thousand cervitaurs divided between the three forests, two-thirds of them in the Great Forest.

Religion: Cervitaurs honor the Forest Queen above all others. They worship her as royalty and creator, and all cervitaurs recognize her as the high ruler of their tribes.
Central to cervitaur spiritual life is their harvest festival. Not only a celebration of the year's crops and thanks to the Forest Queen for the abundance, it also marks the beginning of rutting season. Bucks compete with each other in wild games for does' attentions in the week-long celebration, which includes jubilant feasts, music, and dancing.

Language: The cervitaurs have no language of their own, and instead they speak Sylvan.

Names: Their given names are typically common words or descriptive phrases which the cervitaur's parents grant him shortly after his weaning based on the omens the tribal shaman reads on the naming day. Cervitaur tribal names are simplified versions of fey names, perhaps honoring a long-ago ancestor.
Male Names: Bold, Little Knee, Running Hawk, Wind.
Female Names: Dancer, Moon and Stars, Seven Oaks.
Tribal Names: Aoibhinn, Fearghus, Helaininn, Lorccan, Muadnait, Orfhlaith, Tiarnach.

Adventurers: Cervitaur adventurers are often exiles or lone survivors, as they don't often take to wandering. Sometimes, though, a young buck or doe takes it into their head to go out and see the world.

Cervitaur Racial Traits
- Ability Modifiers: +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int. Cervitaurs are quick and agile, but not as mentally adept as humans and slight of build.
- Monstrous humanoid.
- Medium-Sized: As Medium creatures, cervitaurs have no special bonuses or penalties due to size. As quadrupeds they have half again the carrying capacity of a biped.
- Speed: Cervitaur base land speed is 40 feet.
- Natural weapons: 2 hoof attacks that deal 1d4 + 1/2 Str damage as secondary natural attacks. They may use their hooves to attack as part of a full attack action that includes hand-held weapons.
- +1 natural armor: Cervitaur hide is tougher than human skin.
- +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks in natural environments: Cervitaurs naturally blend in well with their environments and are adept at moving stealthily.
- +2 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against mundane poison: The cervitaur's constitution protects him against the ravages of natural toxins.
- Primitive: Cervitaurs receive Primitive Weapon Proficiency instead of Basic Weapon Proficiency. They may not begin play with proficiency in firearms or with ranks in the Repair skill. Cervitaurs are illiterate, and must spend 2 skill points to become literate.
- Automatic Languages: Sylvan, the language of the fair folk and woodland creatures. Bonus Languages: Common, Elven, Goblin, Orc.
- Favored Class: Ranger (for bucks), Scout (for does) or Bard (both).


Racial Feats:
Goring Antlers
You can attack with your antlers. Your antlers are larger, sturdier, and generally more impressive than other bucks'.
Prerequisites: Cervitaur male, 1st-level only.
Effect: You gain a gore attack as a primary natural weapon. This gore attack 1d6 + Str piercing damage. When attacking with a manufactured weapon (except on a charge), the gore attack is used as a secondary natural weapon. You can make a special charge attack with your antlers, dealing double damage on a successful hit.
Due to your impressive rack, you gain a +2 bonus on Charisma-based skill checks with other cervitaurs.

Infinite Step
You can move with supernatural speed.
Prerequisites: Cervitaur female.
Effect: You may use this ability as a free action 1/day per 4 HD. While active, it allows you to move up to your speed as a swift action. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + your Dex bonus (minimum 3 rounds).

Nimble Runner
You are good at avoiding attack while running.
Prerequisites: Cervitaur, Run or fast movement class feature.
Effect: When you move at least 10 ft in a round, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to Defense. This dodge bonus increases by +1 for each additional 10 ft you move in a single round. You also gain a +2 bonus to Reflex saves when you move 10 ft or more in a single round.

War-Hoof Focus
You are particularly adept at using your hooves in combat.
Prerequisites: Cervitaur, BAB +1.
Effect: You may treat your hooves as primary natural weapons. You gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls with them.
Special: This feat is treated as Weapon Focus (Hooves) with regards to prerequisites.

War-Hoof Specialization
You can follow up a hoof attack with a powerful kick from your rear legs.
Prerequisites: Cervitaur, BAB +6, War-Hoof Focus.
Effect: You gain an additional hoof attack that deals 1d6 + 1.5x Str damage. It takes a -5 penalty to attack rolls. If this attack hits and deals damage, your opponent is dazed for one round.

Absol197
2011-05-15, 04:02 AM
I'm no expert at balancing, but mechanically, this seems fairly even with other races to me. At first I was thrown off by the two natural weapons, but them being secondary attacks (like most herbavores have) makes it less of an issue.

There are a couple things I'm iffy on: first, with regards to said natural attacks, there should be some way that a cervitaur can make them primary attacks. A cervitaur trained in combat (such as a fighter or a barbarian) would have learned how to use them as such, seeing as they are a powerful advantage.

Secondly, I'm not a fan of racial abilities that tell you what you can or can't do. The Primitive ability is obviously one that you're using to give them a penalty so some of their positive features don't bring the race into OP territory, but players like to play races against type (I know my group does it all the time). Saying that you can't wield firearms, or have Repair, or even be literate is a major preventative from a vast array of character concepts. If you want a race to shy away from going in a certain direction, it's better to use a gentle nudge (i.e. little penalties) rather than brandish a stick menacingly in the player's faces (saying, "you can't do that!").

Fluff-wise (I perused most of it), it looks great.

Veklim
2011-05-15, 07:37 AM
I may be missing something, but surely scout is a better choice for favoured class than ranger, they're practically built for the class!


Saying that you can't wield firearms, or have Repair, or even be literate is a major preventative from a vast array of character concepts. If you want a race to shy away from going in a certain direction, it's better to use a gentle nudge (i.e. little penalties)
It's not as bad as it first appears imo. Their favoured classes (ahem :smallwink:) both have plenty of skill points to buy literacy @1st, and just because they can't start play with certain things, doesn't stop them learning. All the restriction does is reflect the nature of the race and their technological development. Further to that point, they will not have been trained as a wizard or a gunslinger or anything else like that from their time in the stone age forest will they? A character concept is cool, and playing against type is one of my favourite things to do of an afternoon, but this does just make sense.
Of course you could just choose to ignore that bit if you're playing a setting where these guys are more advanced, or at least less remote...


players like to play races against type (I know my group does it all the time)
Perhaps you should try more stuff like Primitive then! :smalltongue:
Honestly though, I feel your pain dude! Nightmare to DM for players, my games would run so much better without them there to muddle everything up :smallbiggrin:


there should be some way that a cervitaur can make them primary attacks
That's a little bit of a balance issue in and of itself though. A feat at first level would perhaps be the best way around it, instead of trying to over-complicate a currently elegant and simple race design. However, whilst on the subject of natural attacks, the males should honestly have a gore attack accessible at some point, there's no way an intelligent race who grow massive Foxtrot Oscar antlers haven't yet found a way of attacking like their bestial brethren with them.....another feat perhaps?


- +2 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks: Cervitaurs naturally blend in well with their environments and are adept at moving stealthily.
There should probably be some sort of restriction on these bonuses, these guys wouldn't hide too easily in a dungeon... Perhaps a +4 in natural settings instead of universal +2?


- +2 racial bonus on Fortitude saves against poison: The cervitaur's constitution protects him against the ravages of many toxins.
Nice touch, coupled with the -2 con these guys are +1 vs poison and -1 vs everything else, sweet and simple. You may wish to distinguish between mundane and magical though, most other poison related bonuses do so.

Solaris
2011-05-15, 09:42 AM
There are a couple things I'm iffy on: first, with regards to said natural attacks, there should be some way that a cervitaur can make them primary attacks. A cervitaur trained in combat (such as a fighter or a barbarian) would have learned how to use them as such, seeing as they are a powerful advantage.
I can see that as being a feat, yeah. I'm torn between the very simple "You can treat your hooves as natural weapons" or letting it also function as Weapon Focus for the hooves. I also added in another feat to allow the cervitaur to get in another attack with its rear legs once it gets iterative attacks.


Secondly, I'm not a fan of racial abilities that tell you what you can or can't do. The Primitive ability is obviously one that you're using to give them a penalty so some of their positive features don't bring the race into OP territory, but players like to play races against type (I know my group does it all the time). Saying that you can't wield firearms, or have Repair, or even be literate is a major preventative from a vast array of character concepts. If you want a race to shy away from going in a certain direction, it's better to use a gentle nudge (i.e. little penalties) rather than brandish a stick menacingly in the player's faces (saying, "you can't do that!").
I happen to agree with you (it's one of the nice things about 3.X as compared to AD&D), so fortunately this isn't a blanket restriction. It just stops the character from starting off with the technological stuff, not from gaining them later on. A cervitaur could easily use its third-level feat to pick up proficiency with firearms, or spend skill ranks in Repair after first level.


Fluff-wise (I perused most of it), it looks great.
Shiny. Thanks.


I may be missing something, but surely scout is a better choice for favoured class than ranger, they're practically built for the class!
Hm, you're probably right. I just haven't adapted the scout class for my setting yet, and I generally try to keep favored classes in the core rulebook.


It's not as bad as it first appears imo. Their favoured classes (ahem :smallwink:) both have plenty of skill points to buy literacy @1st, and just because they can't start play with certain things, doesn't stop them learning. All the restriction does is reflect the nature of the race and their technological development. Further to that point, they will not have been trained as a wizard or a gunslinger or anything else like that from their time in the stone age forest will they? A character concept is cool, and playing against type is one of my favourite things to do of an afternoon, but this does just make sense.
Of course you could just choose to ignore that bit if you're playing a setting where these guys are more advanced, or at least less remote...
Certainly. It's such a small penalty that I use it less for crunch and more for flavor. If someone came to me with a backstory for a cervitaur who grew up with the Industrial Age-era culture prevalent in my setting, I wouldn't mind them dropping Primitive. They might have to come up with something else to balance it out, but honestly a lot of characters don't start off with firearms or Repair anyways so the real change would be the cervitaur's literacy.


That's a little bit of a balance issue in and of itself though. A feat at first level would perhaps be the best way around it, instead of trying to over-complicate a currently elegant and simple race design. However, whilst on the subject of natural attacks, the males should honestly have a gore attack accessible at some point, there's no way an intelligent race who grow massive Foxtrot Oscar antlers haven't yet found a way of attacking like their bestial brethren with them.....another feat perhaps?
Added in a feat to allow a primary hoof attack, then another which enables the cervitaur to gain an iterative attack (with bonuses).
I was thinking about adding in a gore attack useful on a charge, but I know how taboo gender-specific racial features seem to be. Lemme know what you think of the one I just posted.


There should probably be some sort of restriction on these bonuses, these guys wouldn't hide too easily in a dungeon... Perhaps a +4 in natural settings instead of universal +2?
Agreed. 'Natural settings' is broad enough to still be mostly useful without being so broad as to be overpowered.


Nice touch, coupled with the -2 con these guys are +1 vs poison and -1 vs everything else, sweet and simple. You may wish to distinguish between mundane and magical though, most other poison related bonuses do so.
None that I recall off the top of my head, but why not? The resistance applies to mundane only. The cervitaur's resistant to poisons from animal, vegetable, mineral, but not from magical beasts, aberrations, dragons, or other planes.

Veklim
2011-05-15, 01:23 PM
With regards to Goring Antlers, nice stuff. The trouble with gender-specific bonuses and options is mostly because people don't like to be reminded these days that there are actually differences between the genders (not sexism, simple truth). If anyone says they have a problem with it, point out the difference between male and female drow and see how long they argue for.
That said, perhaps a little borrowing from drow would make sense, maybe give the females favoured class druid and a feat to improve their first few abilities as such.

The 2 hoof feats are also quite nice, focus is actually really simple and effective. Is the attack gained from specialisation a secondary natural then? I assume so considering it's the same penalty as such but wanted to check :smallbiggrin:

The skill bonus looks much better to me now, and the save vs mundane only does make quite a difference, I've seen a fair few magical poisons out and about in my time.

All looks good to me dude! :smallcool:

Solaris
2011-05-15, 03:13 PM
With regards to Goring Antlers, nice stuff. The trouble with gender-specific bonuses and options is mostly because people don't like to be reminded these days that there are actually differences between the genders (not sexism, simple truth). If anyone says they have a problem with it, point out the difference between male and female drow and see how long they argue for.
That said, perhaps a little borrowing from drow would make sense, maybe give the females favoured class druid and a feat to improve their first few abilities as such.
I know. It's really weird, but then again I saw nothing wrong with female characters having a lower top-end Strength than male characters which is apparently a huge no-go in modern gaming.
I was trying to think of something, but haven't come up with anything that didn't feel like I was shoehorning it in or that couldn't work for both genders. I might work up a bardic or druidic prestige class that makes the cervitaur more like a unicorn (the Forest Queen being a unicorn and all).


The 2 hoof feats are also quite nice, focus is actually really simple and effective. Is the attack gained from specialisation a secondary natural then? I assume so considering it's the same penalty as such but wanted to check :smallbiggrin:
Yes, kind of. It has a different Strength bonus to damage (treated as a two-handed weapon or a sole primary natural attack) but that's 'cause it's both rear hooves striking as one.


The skill bonus looks much better to me now, and the save vs mundane only does make quite a difference, I've seen a fair few magical poisons out and about in my time.
I don't doubt it, but I really don't remember any. Was I just not reading the poison section in the DMG closely enough, or are they mostly in the Monster Manual and non-core books?


All looks good to me dude! :smallcool:
Thanks a lot. I appreciate the help.

Veyr
2011-05-15, 04:37 PM
You could go with the fact that many deer species have horns even on the females...

Solaris
2011-05-15, 04:44 PM
Excepting reindeer and caribou, does with antlers tend to be more or less hermaphrodites. Their antlers are generally deformed, too.

There's a difference between horns and antlers. Horns have a bone component with a keratin sheath. Antlers are bone. Only pronghorns shed their horns, whereas almost everything that has antlers sheds them annually.

Debihuman
2011-05-15, 05:08 PM
Apparently you missed the standard rule where you CAN use secondary attacks as primary attacks, but you still take the -5 penalty to attack. This is true for all natural attacks. The multiattack feat drops the penalty to -2 and the improved multiattack feat negates it altogether.

Debby

SlashRunner
2011-05-15, 05:15 PM
Due to your impressive rack, you gain a +2 bonus on Charisma-based skill checks with other cervitaurs.



Sorry, that just made me laugh.

Veklim
2011-05-16, 05:39 AM
Apparently you missed the standard rule where you CAN use secondary attacks as primary attacks, but you still take the -5 penalty to attack.

I think the penalty is the issue here, hence the feat.

@SlashRunner.
Indeed, gave me a good chuckle too!

Solaris
2011-05-16, 07:48 PM
Apparently you missed the standard rule where you CAN use secondary attacks as primary attacks, but you still take the -5 penalty to attack. This is true for all natural attacks. The multiattack feat drops the penalty to -2 and the improved multiattack feat negates it altogether.

Debby

Right, but that felt pretty lame for burning two feats just to be able to hit with a couple of d4s without penalty. That, and I wasn't sure that you even could get Multiattack with only just two natural weapons.


Sorry, that just made me laugh.

I couldn't resist.

zyborg
2011-05-16, 08:07 PM
Awesome. Where'd you come up with the idea for this? Is this a "real" mythological species, or did you make it up?

Solaris
2011-05-16, 08:33 PM
I wanted to make a LA +0 centaur. So far as I know, there's no human-deer critters like this in mythology.

LOTRfan
2011-05-16, 08:49 PM
If I remember correctly, the idea of human-deer hybrids are common in some forms of Native American myth.

EDIT: Deer Women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer_Woman) are sometimes described as monsters with the upper body of a beautiful woman, and the lower body of a white-tailed deer. They have different characteristics than the race you made, though, so yours is still unique.

Veklim
2011-05-17, 05:19 AM
That, and I wasn't sure that you even could get Multiattack with only just two natural weapons.

Of course they could have multiattack, they got 2 natural weapons AND 2 arms haven't they? :smallbiggrin:

These guys are looking good though. Have you paid any more thought to possible female-oriented feat/s yet?

Solaris
2011-05-17, 09:29 PM
If I remember correctly, the idea of human-deer hybrids are common in some forms of Native American myth.

EDIT: Deer Women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deer_Woman) are sometimes described as monsters with the upper body of a beautiful woman, and the lower body of a white-tailed deer. They have different characteristics than the race you made, though, so yours is still unique.
I'm not at all surprised. I've never heard of the deer woman, though. Might have to stat that one out.


Of course they could have multiattack, they got 2 natural weapons AND 2 arms haven't they? :smallbiggrin:

These guys are looking good though. Have you paid any more thought to possible female-oriented feat/s yet?
Eh, one natural attack shy unless they have Goring Antlers. A monk might be able to squeak by, though, using his unarmed strike (which counts as natural or manufactured weapons - unless there's errata I don't know about).

Hrm. Not really - just had some long days at work. Did have some fun blasting half a platoon while playing OPFOR, though. Maybe some kind of stomp-based attack, perhaps a leap attack type thing - but again, that's one both genders could reasonably pull off.

Obrysii
2011-05-17, 09:31 PM
All I can add is that I really like this! Good job!

Rainbownaga
2011-05-18, 08:28 AM
What would be so bad about having primary natural weapons? Sure, you use your normal attack roll instead of -5, but you need to use a full attack to benefit from it, and only at very low levels will your natural attacks be worth the weapon damage. Even then I would think that most characters would use a two-handed weapon and 2 secondary attacks over 2 primary (low damage) attacks.

Is there something I'm missing?

Solaris
2011-05-19, 12:16 PM
Nothing at all. Like Debi said, they can be used as primaries if you're not wielding a weapon in the hand, in which case they still take the -5 penalty to attack but allow full damage bonus. They're secondaries off the bat for more thematic than balance reasons. These aren't predatory, warlike creatures.

I've got something for the females that might be useful, particularly for a female scout. It requires a pretty lame feat for a prerequisite, though.

Nimble Runner
You are good at avoiding attack while running.
Prerequisites: Cervitaur female, Run or fast movement class feature.
Effect: When you move at least your base speed in a round, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class. This dodge bonus increases by +1 for each 10 ft you exceed your base speed by in a single round (such as while running or taking a double move action). You also gain a +2 bonus to Reflex saves when you move your base speed or faster in a round.

Veklim
2011-05-19, 04:06 PM
Liking Nimble Runner, good counterpart to Goring Antlers. My next thought would be to make favoured class as ranger for males, scout for females and bard for both perhaps. Keep the continuity between genders. You could always make the requirements for Nimble Runner read Run OR Fast movement class feature, would make it slightly happier as a balance to the antlers would it not?

Solaris
2011-05-19, 06:37 PM
That seems reasonable.

Veyr
2011-05-19, 07:49 PM
Goring Antlers is massively better than Nimble Runner, you realize. Situational +2 bonus to AC (err... Defense?) and +2 bonus to Reflex is meh as anything and I'd never bother spending a feat on it (and very definitely would not spend a feat on Run qualifying for it). Meanwhile, Goring Antlers gives you a relatively difficult-to-come-by natural attack, making it a quite awesome feat.

Solaris
2011-05-19, 08:20 PM
It's also not equivalent to Skill Focus (incredibly lame), Power Attack (halfway decent), Combat Expertise (good because of what it qualifies you for), or taking levels as a wizard. It's pretty decent for a Scout, the doe's favored class - works well with their skirmisher tactics, you see. I really don't see how natural weapons are all that hot, to be honest. Sure, you can't be disarmed, and it's an additional attack - great if you have sneak attack, meh if you don't - but you have to spend a 1st level feat slot on it. Those are a bit important if you're not starting off at high level. If by 'awesome' you mean 'rather unique', then yes. Sure. If you mean 'high-powered' then I'm afraid I must disagree. It's a lance you can't disarm that lets you get a second attack.
Perhaps Nimble Runner is not the most optimal choice for a cervitaur scout. It might be, it might not be. I have a day job (of the "I'm the only one my father knows who thinks a fifteen-hour work day isn't that long" variety), I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time trying to work stuff out. I don't care if one feat (and by extension, gender) is slightly less optimized than another. Do you have an alternative that doesn't require altering them to be reindeer?

Veyr
2011-05-19, 09:58 PM
I completely disagree with just about every aspect of your analysis. Nimble Runner is not worth a feat, Goring Antlers definitely is for the right build; lots of builds try to capitalize on lots of natural attacks a male Cervitaur Totemist would work quite well, for example. Psychic Warriors and Binders are also known for their natural attacks.

Remember, a natural attack is a completely, 100% free additional attack in a full-attack routine. It stacks with Haste and similar, and a Gore attack doesn't even use your hand, so there's no hang-ups with using weapons. Plus, since Claws are by far the most common form of natural attack, with Bite as a fairly distant second and everything else quite a bit behind that, a Gore is nice because it's likely to be one that you don't have elsewhere. There are a lot of classes who would count that worth a feat.

As for the Nimble Runner feat, you have to move your entire move speed. There are so many situations where that doesn't come up, it's not funny. If you want it to work with Scout, much better to set it to just 10 ft. as Skirmish usually works. But I doubt I'd bother with +2 AC, +2 Reflex as a feat even if it was on all the time. That's just a really weak effect.

Compare the two: one gives you an entirely new ability. The other gives you a small bonus to a pair of rolls you already have. There's worlds of difference here.

Now, obviously, this isn't to say it's completely the end of the world: the female Cervitaurs out there can just not bother with the feat at all, since it's awful. But better would be to do something that actually improves their mobility. Pounce is one option; seems a little strange, though, for a deer. But say, something akin to Travel Devotion would be awesome.

How about... eh, 1 + Dex times per day, she can move (as with a Move Action) for a Swift Action for the next five turns. That enables the female Cervitaur to move and full attack, allowing her to put her Skirmish damage to good use. Requirement of... probably just being a female Cervitaur. It's Travel Devotion lite, but without the requirement of dipping Cleric, potential fluff issues, or the new dependence on a bit of Cha. Requiring Run (which is a completely awful feat) or Fast Movement (which Scouts don't get) does not seem wise to me.

This does make the Cervitaur a pretty... optimal choice for Scout, I'll admit. But really, that's the Scout's problem, not hers, I think.

Veklim
2011-05-20, 05:38 AM
Fast Movement (which Scouts don't get) does not seem wise to me.

Yes they do, level 3.

Veyr
2011-05-20, 01:05 PM
D'oh, point. Still, I don't think that's a great idea: the feat would be useful to a great number of potential builds, not just Barbarians/Monks/Scouts.

Solaris
2011-05-21, 01:17 AM
I completely disagree with just about every aspect of your analysis. Nimble Runner is not worth a feat, Goring Antlers definitely is for the right build; lots of builds try to capitalize on lots of natural attacks a male Cervitaur Totemist would work quite well, for example. Psychic Warriors and Binders are also known for their natural attacks.

Remember, a natural attack is a completely, 100% free additional attack in a full-attack routine. It stacks with Haste and similar, and a Gore attack doesn't even use your hand, so there's no hang-ups with using weapons. Plus, since Claws are by far the most common form of natural attack, with Bite as a fairly distant second and everything else quite a bit behind that, a Gore is nice because it's likely to be one that you don't have elsewhere. There are a lot of classes who would count that worth a feat.
Right, it's worth a feat - I agree with you on that. With the right build it gets to be pretty gnarly, too.


As for the Nimble Runner feat, you have to move your entire move speed. There are so many situations where that doesn't come up, it's not funny. If you want it to work with Scout, much better to set it to just 10 ft. as Skirmish usually works. But I doubt I'd bother with +2 AC, +2 Reflex as a feat even if it was on all the time. That's just a really weak effect.
As I'd intended, it grants you a +2 to AC and +2 to Reflex if you move 40 ft. That goes up by +1 for every 10 ft faster you move, so if you have fast movement +10 it's +3 to AC, +2 Ref for moving 50 ft, and so on.
Hmm. Good idea, I'll drop it down to be 10 ft so that it comes up more often.


Now, obviously, this isn't to say it's completely the end of the world: the female Cervitaurs out there can just not bother with the feat at all, since it's awful. But better would be to do something that actually improves their mobility. Pounce is one option; seems a little strange, though, for a deer. But say, something akin to Travel Devotion would be awesome.

How about... eh, 1 + Dex times per day, she can move (as with a Move Action) for a Swift Action for the next five turns. That enables the female Cervitaur to move and full attack, allowing her to put her Skirmish damage to good use. Requirement of... probably just being a female Cervitaur. It's Travel Devotion lite, but without the requirement of dipping Cleric, potential fluff issues, or the new dependence on a bit of Cha. Requiring Run (which is a completely awful feat) or Fast Movement (which Scouts don't get) does not seem wise to me.

This does make the Cervitaur a pretty... optimal choice for Scout, I'll admit. But really, that's the Scout's problem, not hers, I think.
Run is a god-awful feat, even worse than Skill Focus (although my house-ruling that Skill Focus lets you take 10 under duress helps it out some - with skill-based spellcasting, it makes the feat really handy for a spellcaster).

Even with all the above discussion, I do think I like yours a lot more than I like mine. I'll switch Nimble Runner around some and use the Travel Devotion variant as the doe-only feat. I'm thinking on a skill bonus like Goring Antlers has, too.