LGBTAI+ LGBTAitp - Part Fourteen [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Nix Nihila

2011-05-23, 04:05 PM

Welcome, one and all.

This is a thread where we Playgrounders, and LGBTAitp in particular, gather to discuss, share our experiences, give general advice and support one another in such matters as arise relating to, well, the world beyond heteronormativity.

Please note that although the title of the thread names only the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Asexual communities, it is intended as an all inclusive environment.

Everyone is welcome. Let's try to keep from seeming otherwise.
Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, plz)
It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "Right." (And really, most discussions probably should avoid moralizing too much anyway)
Please refrain from posting sexually explicit content. (Keep it friendly as well as board safe :smallsmile:)

If you would rather be anonymous when asking for advice or sharing your story or views, you can use the address below to send a message to be posted in this thread via proxy.

http://anonmail.smeenet.org/

Keep in mind that content which contain strong language may be filtered (Plus, y'know, the forum-filters), and content that violates the forum rules won't be posted at all.

Here are the links for the last few threads, where much of use or interest may be found:
LGBT people in the playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62225)

LGBT people in the playground - part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86066)

LGBTitp - part III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5663140#post5663140)

LGBTitp 4: We are a family? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129235)

LGBTitp - Part Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143424)

LGBTitp - Part Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147832)

LGBTitp - Part Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157312)

LGBTitp - Part Eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167395)

LGBTitp - Part Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172747)

LGBTAitp - Part Ten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177253)

LGBTAitp - Part Eleven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181683)

LGBTAitp - Part Twelve (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10335967#)

LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192714)

*modified from the original.

Astrella

2011-05-23, 04:07 PM

*snif*

Is that a new thread I smell?

On topic: I've been considering writing out my "story" about my feelings regarding my gender identity, it might help me get my feelings sorted out a bit better.

Lissou

2011-05-23, 04:18 PM

To keep on the previous subject:

Well, if you are not L, G, B, T or A, but still consider yourself part of the umbrella that LGBT covers, you kind of ask "why did we add a non-standard letter and not a letter that covers me". Or maybe only I do that.

It's true that the more letters are added that don't cover me, the more I feel excluded. On the other hand, I don't think removing letters is the way to go, and I think if we added letters for every group it would get way too long. That's why I supported the idea of a title that wasn't an acronym at all, and therefore didn't implicitly exclude people by not explicitly including them.

But oh well, now we have 50 more pages to think about it I guess :p

Dire Moose

2011-05-23, 04:27 PM

*snif*

Is that a new thread I smell?

On topic: I've been considering writing out my "story" about my feelings regarding my gender identity, it might help me get my feelings sorted out a bit better.

Do it! Doitdoitdoitdoit!

The Rose Dragon

2011-05-23, 04:39 PM

So, since I derailed the last page of the last thread because I felt offended by the title, I suppose I'll just explain my situation (I don't recall if I ever did so in detail).

I identify with the LGBT crowd. Rather strongly, in fact, and have gotten into some heated arguments with my father over it (though to be fair, I don't think he's got any problems with them besides my closeness to the issue). I also don't feel like there needs to be any non-physical differences between males and females, and I am told I act rather feminine sometimes. But besides that, I don't know why I identify so much with the issue. It's cool to preach the equality of all people, of course, and make friends of people regardless of their sexual orientation and identity (please don't be offended by my choice of the word "cool"), but it's not always the most logical thing to do if you are going out of your way to do so and risk being harmed in the process, especially in a region as unenlightened as the one I live in. My psychologist thinks that while it is not that unusual for non-LGBT people to be interested in the issue, my intensity is. She suggested several times now that I might be a bisexual-in-denial (she never suggested I might be homosexual, though), but she never pressed the issue for long.

However, whenever I think about it, I don't identify with any particular subgroup. Ignoring the fact that I cannot possibly be a lesbian, I've never found myself sexually interested in guys (though if Michael J. Fox comes a-knocking, I might give it one shot), I'm quite content with being a male, I do have a sex drive, and I don't think the social definitions of gender have an effect on who I am, so I don't consider myself "gender-queer". By all means, a lot of people would think I am not a part of the whole umbrella (and who knows, maybe I am not), so when I first started contemplating the issue, LGBT seemed like a respectable compromise. I never knew any other abbreviations, and it was always clear that it included more than the its letters in my interactions with anyone who identified as such.

So, when the A was first included in the title, I felt kind of... rejected, I guess? I had felt that asexuals were already included in the group, even without the letter. So if they need a letter to feel welcome, what about others? What about people who don't know what letter they are? What about me? Where do I fit in?

At the time I did not press the issue, because other people were already arguing about it, and I did not want to say something wrong. And I missed the last page each time a thread ended, so I did not feel like trying to influence things when the time for it was already past. This time, however, I was there when the last thread started, so I kinda lashed out. In retrospect, I realize that it is selfish, but it does not lessen the feeling of rejection. And if you have been following the Depression Thread or the RW&A, you might know how terrible I am socially and how much I fear rejection.

So, in short, I was stupid and selfish, and I hope you can understand and forgive me.

Lissou

2011-05-23, 05:10 PM

I understand, Rose Dragon, and feel kind of similar. I think adding a + would have been better than adding the A, it would have been more inclusive. Now if the + is added, it will have to be after the A, but it does send the message that everything else is less important.
It was fine with LGBT because it's commonly used, and understood to include more than that, as you said. I agree that adding one more group (whichever it was) makes it exclude the rest more.
But I realise removing a letter would be the completely wrong message, too.

Rose Dragon, I'm not sure what to call people who are outside the gender spectrum. Like you, I don't understand the concept of gender at all. I feel genderless more than genderqueer. But I don't feel it's something that defines me so I don't want to carry a label about it. Out of the people in this thread I think I understand transgenders the least. I'm to transgendered and cisgendered people what asexuals are to sexuals of any orientation.

I get homosexuality, and bisexuality because I get being attracted to some people, since I am (to males. Physical males). I understand asexuality because I'm not attracted to physical females. But I don't understand the concept of being transgendered or cisgendered because I don't understand the concept of having a gender.

Yet I don't feel neutrois either, as it seems to be feeling like you're neither (the article about it talked about it being traumatic and some people mutilating themselves because they wanted to have nothing at all down there. It's not me at all).
Being who I am isn't a trauma or hard or anything. I deal with my female body fine, and I don't see why I wouldn't have dealt with a male body fine if I had had one. All things being equal, I don't see why I'd want to change bodies since it doesn't make a difference to me.

Mmh, it's starting to get an essay. Anyways, my point was, Rose Dragon, I understand the way you feel. I too feel like it's stupid and selfish to be annoyed by something like that. On the other hand, I wonder, how long is the acronym going to get? I feel that something that doesn't specifically list every group would work better. Something about non-normative sexual orientations and gender identities, for instance. But meh, ultimately the name doesn't really matter as much as the content.

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 05:25 PM

This article might be of some small interest. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/magazine/lives-my-new-kentucky-baby.html?_r=1)

But, then again, it might not.

Nix Nihila

2011-05-23, 05:26 PM

Hmm.. I like the idea of adding a plus, although it does make the title look a bit clunky. But that's an aesthetic thing.

I'm also considering adding a couple sentences explaining the acronym, as Coidzor suggested, and also a sentence explaining that while the acronym isn't all inclusive, the thread is. Or something to that effect.

Thoughts?

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 05:31 PM

Sounds like a plan to me.
In any case, I've gone ahead and made another thread (am I breaking some convention by doing this? It appears as if the previous threads were all created by SMEE, Jacklu, and Coidzor).

Not really? I only made a thread because Jacklu and SMEE weren't around and one needed to be made. I can't recall but I think Jacklu only started because SMEE wasn't around, so, y'know, no ego bruising inherent in doing it, as far as I know.

The Rose Dragon

2011-05-23, 05:54 PM

Not really? I only made a thread because Jacklu and SMEE weren't around and one needed to be made. I can't recall but I think Jacklu only started because SMEE wasn't around, so, y'know, no ego bruising inherent in doing it, as far as I know.

It's a bit more complicated than that. Jacklu started a thread after you did. The first three threads were created by SMEE, but something happened during the third thread that highly upset her, so she left the job. You took up the fourth in her absence, and after that Jacklu started each thread until this one. However, there is no taboo against starting a new thread if Jacklu doesn't do it.

Astrella

2011-05-23, 06:10 PM

Do it! Doitdoitdoitdoit!

It's not very interesting though. :smalltongue:

rayne_dragon

2011-05-23, 06:34 PM

I understand, Rose Dragon, and feel kind of similar. I think adding a + would have been better than adding the A, it would have been more inclusive. Now if the + is added, it will have to be after the A, but it does send the message that everything else is less important.
It was fine with LGBT because it's commonly used, and understood to include more than that, as you said. I agree that adding one more group (whichever it was) makes it exclude the rest more.
But I realise removing a letter would be the completely wrong message, too.

Ahh... ye olde acronym issue. How do we make it fully inclusive and how do we avoid making it cumbersome?

Personally, I'm all for using the word Queer as a umbrella term, but I'm given to understand some may have issues with that word, so it may not be that good a choice.

The alphabet soup method ends up being rather exhaustive and exhausting to use, but even so some people are bound to feel the lack of a letter for them even if "Queer", "Questioning", and "Ally" are all included.

I suppose one could always invent a new word, but then that would lack acceptance and understanding at first so would require something of a marketing campaign to get it into widespread useage.

Adding a plus does seem good, although there is the issue of everyone not already in the acronym feeling somewhat less important.

There should be some sort of world-wide gay* symposium to debate this issue and come up with a standardized solution. :smalltongue:

* and by gay I mean consisting of all the people who feel they should be included in the acronym, not just gay people.

This article might be of some small interest. (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/magazine/lives-my-new-kentucky-baby.html?_r=1)

But, then again, it might not.

Awww... cute. :smallbiggrin:

pffh

2011-05-23, 06:51 PM

Short story time. So I went to a small housewarming party with some friends this weekend and two of them are a gay couple where one is a stereotypical metal head and the other is very flamboyant. After a couple of drinks the metal guy ends up in the others lap and tells him he loves him so much. The other guy then looks deeply into his eyes and told him to stop gaying things up and kissed him.

On the other hand, I wonder, how long is the acronym going to get? I feel that something that doesn't specifically list every group would work better. Something about non-normative sexual orientations and gender identities, for instance. But meh, ultimately the name doesn't really matter as much as the content.

Indeed since then you'd probably get an acronym a couple of billions letter long since well (at least in my opinion) it's very rare for two people to have the exactly same sexual identity. For example I identify as straight although a more clearer identity would be bi but leaning so heavily towards straight that I can count the number of guys I've met and been sexually interested in on one hand yet still I do find some men very pleasing to look at. But that takes too bloody long.

Woo ninja edit: Also a bit off topic and has probably been brought up in some of the old threads but when/if you came out who did/will you tell why and under what circumstances did you decide to tell that person?

I'm asking since I've kinda only told one person I know in real life (my best friend) that I'm not 100% straight and that was while drunk so I'm not sure he believed me. As it stands I doubt I´m going to explicitly come out to anyone else unless I happen to start dating a boy.

Qaera

2011-05-23, 06:53 PM

I like GLOW (Gay, Lesbian, or whatever).
Also, watching this new show Gumball, and this is like the third show. This guys dad tried to do the laundry, but shrunk all the clothes, so this (male) kid has to wear his mom's wedding dress (?). So everyone loves him as a girl and he discovers how awesome it is to be a beautiful girl. And his (male) best friend fell in love with him.
I guess that's cool?
Edit: so to escape he puts the dress on a balloon and plans to send it to Europe but it just gets popped by the sun, and the dress falls on a fire hydrant, with the best friend proclaiming his sudden love for it, and remarking "Your silence is like a thousand words". Thought that was really cool.

Heliomance

2011-05-23, 06:56 PM

I never liked queer as a word, at least not as adopted for the LGBTAQWTFBBQ crowd. As a quaint way to say something is odd, or strange, it's wonderful.

Pika...

2011-05-23, 07:03 PM

Can I ask some advice from my Lesbian/Gay friends here? I have a bit of an issue, so I'd like your prospectives.

I am about to finally become a known-donor. The mother/carrier has stated that both mothers have agreed that I "will be the father, and we will not keep it from knowing you". Issue is, the wife of the carrier is pure lesbian, has had a very bad history with men, and is a bit of a man-hater. The carrier has proven to be a trust-worth friend, and we text/talk everyday. She has said she does not plan to stop taking to me, even though her wife does not like it.

Should I be worried I will be hurting their relationship?

I have tried to get on good terms with the other mother/wife, but she wants nothing to do with me...

Thank you all for any advice.

rayne_dragon

2011-05-23, 07:25 PM

I don't think you should worry about hurting their relationship, but I'd suggest that you give the unfriendly partner a respectful amount of space and not push her to like/accept you. Hopefully, in time she'll come to accept you and her partner's desire to include you.

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 07:49 PM

Why did you all enter into such an arrangement knowing that one party didn't want it at all in the first place? :smallconfused:

Not much you can do but make the best of a bad situation by not pressing the issue with the woman who doesn't want to interact with you and not doing anything that would look too untoward towards the woman who you do interact with.

Ashen Lilies

2011-05-23, 08:29 PM

I like GLOW (Gay, Lesbian, or whatever).

What about HAH! Humans Against Heterocentrism!
Though that may sound just a little bit aggressive. Also possibly leaves out the non-humans among us.

Qaera

2011-05-23, 08:34 PM

What about HAH! Humans Against Heterocentrism!
Though that may sound just a little bit aggressive. Also possibly leaves out the non-humans among us.

HAHAHEHEHA
Humans Against Heterocentricism and Humans Exhibiting Heterocentrism Except Human Allies

AtlanteanTroll

2011-05-23, 08:34 PM

Ashen Lilies

2011-05-23, 08:41 PM

HAHAHEHEHA
Humans Against Heterocentricism and Humans Exhibiting Heterocentrism Except Human Allies

I think at this point we're just going to have to try and fit a good ol' 'BWA' or 'MUA' in the beginning somewhere. :smalltongue:

Nix Nihila

2011-05-23, 08:54 PM

Weird question. Am I suppose to care that friend came out to me? I mean, yeah, I'd help them if they were being picked on (sexuality regardless), but I really don't see their sexual preferences as any of my business anyway.

Well, you should care since your friend obviously feels comfortable enough around you to tell you.

Just don't make a big deal out of it or ignore that they told you. I can't speak for other people, but if I came out to someone, I would want them to treat me pretty much the same.

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 08:58 PM

Weird question. Am I suppose to care that friend came out to me? I mean, yeah, I'd help them if they were being picked on (sexuality regardless), but I really don't see their sexual preferences as any of my business anyway.

Not really. If you don't care, you don't care, and that's the ideal situation anyway. I suppose some amount of empathy towards them might be in order though, if it was hard for them to come out to you despite the fact that you wouldn't and don't care and wouldn't treat them differently.

golentan

2011-05-23, 09:44 PM

What about HAH! Humans Against Heterocentrism!
Though that may sound just a little bit aggressive. Also possibly leaves out the non-humans among us.

:smallannoyed:

Yes, it would.

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 09:47 PM

:smallannoyed:

Yes, it would.

I dunno, maybe it'd get them to at least introduce themselves at our meet and greets. :smallsigh:

strawberryman

2011-05-23, 09:58 PM

Weird question. Am I suppose to care that friend came out to me? I mean, yeah, I'd help them if they were being picked on (sexuality regardless), but I really don't see their sexual preferences as any of my business anyway.

Well, before I even knew Choray (my girlfriend, only a friend at the time though) was in gender transition, I treated her like, well, a her. So, naturally, after I learned the full picture, it was still pretty easy for me to keep it up. So I can't say for sure, not knowing your full situation, but treating them the same is probably the best way to go.

Ashen Lilies

2011-05-23, 09:58 PM

:smallannoyed:

Yes, it would.

Sorry, but 'SBAH!' doesn't quite have the same ring to it. :smallfrown:

bluewind95

2011-05-23, 10:16 PM

I kinda feel sad whenever these discussions/arguments about the A in the thread pop up. It shouldn't affect me, but thing is... I kind of was a little part of that A being there. Every time a thread was started, I'd post "Someday asexuals ought to be included in there" mostly in jest because I didn't really need it or anything.

And one day... it happened. I posted the same wish and Jacklu outright quoted what I said and added the A. That day... I smiled.

It wasn't even the meaning of A. It doesn't matter to me if it means "Asexual" or "Allies" or "All" or whatever. It was, really, the whole gesture. The listening. Someone CARING that I would be listened to, CARING about the way I felt. It was a beautiful gesture to me, even if it was some kind of coincidence, even if there had been previous plans to place the A there. I was still quoted when it happened. For once someone listened . It came at a very critical time for me, too. A time in which I had not smiled for weeks, I had cried for weeks instead. I know that the A wasn't put there for me. But it was like someone giving a smile when you're having a nasty day. Just a tiny little kind gesture can go SUCH a long way in brightening someone's day. So every time I see that A, I feel a little warmer and fuzzier inside, I smile a little even though I'm going through a very hard time. Because it brings back All those little gestures which don't really cost us anything and can really change someone's day.

Just thought I'd say that.

Jacklu

2011-05-23, 10:46 PM

Oh.

....

Somebody started the new thread... and not... me....

Will just be in the irrelevant corner not mattering anymore. Carry on.

Serpentine

2011-05-23, 10:47 PM

At least you started us discussing it. For all it gets rather repetitive, I don't think that's a bad thing.

I still like "Queeritp". It's a nice catch-all word, for all parts of the spectrum. "Queer+itp" to include everyone else, if you like. Or perhaps, to take from one or two earlier suggestions, "Q&A" or some variant, where Q = Queer and Questioning, and A = Asexuals, Allies and All. And also gets across that this is a good place to come ask questions and get answers.
Should perhaps point out that I think Queer includes transexuals, intersexed etc., too.

LaZodiac

2011-05-23, 10:49 PM

I find it funny Jacklu said that right under a post detailing just how important he was to this topic.

Anyway, on topic, my dad hates gay people. Any way to, ahem, straighten him out?

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 10:50 PM

I can't recall but I think Jacklu only started because SMEE wasn't around, so, y'know, no ego bruising inherent in doing it, as far as I know.

Of course, I've been known to be wrong before, so I wouldn't put too much stock in what I say without exercising some of your own judgment first.

Jacklu

2011-05-23, 11:05 PM

Coidzor

2011-05-23, 11:09 PM

I had thought the OP seemed a bit off about the thread titles of the past incarnations of the thread.

blackfox

2011-05-23, 11:14 PM

Eh, mostly said in jest. I've been starting the threads a lot as a way of being out within the community. Also as a reason to keep coming back to check the forums. I thought about starting the new thread at 48 pages the other day but decided to catch it after work today instead. Whoops.

On the "A". >.> <.< The "A" is in the title because I wanted to do something nice for Bluewind when he seemed to be feeling down. If I had known it would still be causing this much conflict and bad feeling four threads later...This is a conflictual (that is totally a word) thread anyways. There's gonna be conflict. Just do what seems right. Unless you have alphabet soup you're gonna leave someone out, and alphabet soup is frustrating anyways, and everyone reacts differently to different terminology, and I would say the content is more important than the title. Bluh bluh 2c

Serpentine

2011-05-23, 11:15 PM

Do you think we could get Kneebiter into a corset? I'd like to see that.That'd be so hawt.
Anyway, on topic, my dad hates gay people. Any way to, ahem, straighten him out?Depends on his reasoning. A good place to start is probably literature on the subject.

LaZodiac

2011-05-23, 11:16 PM

Eh, his main reason for hating them is because he just doesn't think what they do is right. Also, I think hate might of been too strong of a word. Sorry.

Serpentine

2011-05-23, 11:20 PM

Religious, pseudoscientific, personal squick or other "not right"?

LaZodiac

2011-05-23, 11:22 PM

Partly religious, partly personal. From my understanding atleast.

bluewind95

2011-05-23, 11:29 PM

On the "A". >.> <.< The "A" is in the title because I wanted to do something nice for Bluewind when he seemed to be feeling down.

:smallredface:

Jacklu, I love you. In the platonic sense of the word, but I love you. That "A", like I said, still makes me smile.

Jacklu

2011-05-23, 11:33 PM

I don't want to prolong the conflict but I really do think the current title (or just LGBT if the A is the source of too many hurt feelings, I'm not being facetious or tongue in cheek or snippy about that either, this thread is supposed to be welcoming) is the best way to go. LGBT is a fairly standard term of the queer community and is very recognizable.

I would shy away from using Queer because (in the area I live in at least) Queer is a word that is used with the same intent and inflection as slurs that I would be banned for mentioning in comparison. I understand that queer is one of those words that is being retaken by the community but I would rather just not risk somebody misconstruing it.

As for original or creative titles, I would shy away from those as well because this is a support thread that works best if it is immediately recognized by new people on the forum who might be looking for it. I think LGBT serves the purpose of a title by identifying the topic of discussion contained withing without ambiguity. Besides, as Blackfox said, it is the content of the thread that matters over the title of the thread. As long as the title is clear about the purpose of the thread and the discussion that goes on within is open and supportive to anyone who falls under the expansive LGBT umbrella, does it matter that much that the title is what is it?

In short, LGBT identifies the thread as an LGBT community thread. If the A is really upsetting to people than remove it from the title. This is a case where KISS applies. Besides, this is the fourteenth iteration of the thread. I am pretty sure it is just simpler to keep the title as is than to change it to something entirely different that wouldn't be as clear as the current one.

:smallredface:

Jacklu, I love you. In the platonic sense of the word, but I love you. That "A", like I said, still makes me smile.

*exactly one million hugs*

I am glad. =) It's why I added it in the first place. =P ^_^

*one more hug to be sure*

Blisstake

2011-05-24, 01:18 AM

So, has queer always encompassed most non-heteronormative conditions? Its use where I live exclusively means "gay male," and besides in this thread, I don't think it's been used to mean anything else.

Coidzor

2011-05-24, 01:20 AM

As with all things, its usage varies.

Considering it's part of the full-on Alphabet Soup, I'd say that it is a thing unto itself rather than a specific flavor of homosexual male, though.

Astrella

2011-05-24, 01:31 AM

I'm most familiar with queer being used for people who don't identify with the standard gender-binary structure. (So genderqueer people and such.)[1]

Though according to wiki it should encompass everyone here:
"Queer is an umbrella term for sexual minorities that are not heterosexual, heteronormative, or gender-binary."

(Just what specifically queer covers differs quite a bit to be honest, though it would be a completely appropriate use for the thread title.)

[1]: If you go by this meaning queer stands kinda separate from LGBT, since one can perfectly be gay, lesbian, bi, trans, ... whilst still ascribing to the default gender binary structure.

rayne_dragon

2011-05-24, 01:50 AM

I've always gone with the usage of "queer" as a synonym for odd, strange, weird, and unusual. Which is exactly why I like it so much, in spite of it's contested status. I have little problem being an oddball, since I'm inherantly one in so many ways.

I'm actually thinking that maybe just adding a + after the A might be the best way to add inclusivity while offending the least.

Mono Vertigo

2011-05-24, 05:10 AM

My two cents: huh, I'm quite indifferent as to whether A stays or not, really. Same about the Q and other letters. As long as the acronym doesn't get much longer for the sake of one's ability to type it without accidentally forgetting one letter. :smallfrown:
Oh, and "queer"'s main definition is, IMHO, an expression of not properly fitting gender binaries, in self-identity and/or, maybe, in sexual orientation. And sometimes meant as an insult, but since several people use it to describe themselves without meaning any self-deprecation, I supposes it's mostly been retaken by the LGBT+ community.

Asta Kask

2011-05-24, 05:51 AM

We should call it WFAP - Weirdos From Another Planet. It's the only way we can fit Golentan in.

Ashen Lilies

2011-05-24, 06:59 AM

Well, technically Hell isn't a 'planet' per se... but I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. :smallbiggrin:

Partysan

2011-05-24, 07:10 AM

I like the title as it is, including the A. If neccessary add a +.
Although, someone suggested BATH a while back. I can't remember what it meant, but I have this beautiful association of the whole LGBTAitp community being in a bathhouse together and having a good and snuggly time.

Qaera

2011-05-24, 07:27 AM

Bisexual Asexual Trans* Homosexual?

Asta Kask

2011-05-24, 07:39 AM

HBT is the term in Swedish.

First time I saw it I thought it meant Homosexual Behavioral Therapy*. I wonder what that would be like...

*not really, but I thought it sounded funny

Serpentine

2011-05-24, 07:43 AM

Considering the death of Bill Hunter (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0402730/), I'm wondering (although there's a good chance I've brought it up before): Who here has seen The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109045/), and what did you think of it?

Ashtagon

2011-05-24, 08:18 AM

RainbowitP ftw?

Asta Kask

2011-05-24, 08:24 AM

I favored the Rainbow Thread myself.

blackfox

2011-05-24, 08:25 AM

RainbowitP ftw?There's already a My Little Pony thread over in Media.

more on-topic: I've actually never heard 'queer' used as a slur IRL, nor have I heard it used to mean 'odd' or 'unusual', only 'not-straight.' That's also always how I've used it.

Coidzor

2011-05-24, 10:41 AM

And sometimes meant as an insult, but since several people use it to describe themselves without meaning any self-deprecation, I supposes it's mostly been retaken by the LGBT+ community.

I'd always wondered why the term is "reclaimed" or "retaken," when generally the word or words were never terms that a group would use to identify itself with prior to it being used as slurs against them.

Lissou

2011-05-24, 11:13 AM

I do think any acronym that's not common would probably make the thread less recognizable. I don't know, something very inclusive like "Alternate Lifestyles" might not be recognised at all for instance (and then you have the whole debate about what constitutes a lifestyle or not anyways).
Similarly, a "Non-normative Thread" would not mean much to new people seeing it.

LGBT is recognisable, whether it's followed by more letters or not (and I sincerely thing removing a letter that's been added is taking a step backwards... I guess if it's replaced by a + it could be covered by the +, but still...)

Another possibility is to say that the letters don't stand for just one thing.

For instance, G could be for Gay or Genderqueer , for instance (or anything else starting with "gender".)
T can be transgender or transvestite, there again two different groups
A can be for Asexual, Aromantic, Allies, All the rest

So as long as anyone can find a way to make the minority they feel isn't represented start with L, G, B, T or A, the acronym works. Just because L is recognised to stand for lesbians doesn't mean it can't also be lycantropes :p

Asta Kask

2011-05-24, 11:15 AM

Serpentine

2011-05-24, 11:16 AM

lycantropesLike... this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RaisedByWolves)? :confused:
:smalltongue:

edit @^: Apparently not :smalltongue: But... have you seen it?!

Asta Kask

2011-05-24, 11:19 AM

Serpentine

2011-05-24, 11:21 AM

I wouldn't tell a PMSing woman that she's shaggy...
Did you know men get PMS? Apparently it's a thing.

But yeah, you should totally go watch it. It has Mr Smith in drag!
edit: Thusly.

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/09/29/Pris_060927051708976_wideweb__300x375.jpg

Lix Lorn

2011-05-24, 11:22 AM

I'm going to second that removing a letter sends a bad message, and then change to something different.
...
(can't think of anything else topical)
...

http://i53.tinypic.com/ngpy6x.png
^_^

Asta Kask

2011-05-24, 11:32 AM

I wouldn't tell a PMSing woman that she's shaggy...
Did you know men get PMS? Apparently it's a thing.

Yeah, it's more of a comedic satire on one of my pet peeves - finding naturalistic explanations to mythical creatures. Like claiming there were 'actual' vampires who suffered from protoporphyria, which explains their symptoms. You can always tell a pretty story, but is it true?

And I think a far more interesting question is - what does this myth tell us about humans? Our fears and preferences? The old vampire legends weren't about sex and romance, they were about disease. Vampires weren't beautiful and they DID! NOT! SPARKLE!, they were bloated creatures who sucked the life from the living and made more of themselves.

Then comes the 19th century and disease isn't as prevalent. But fear of sex and sexuality is rampant. And there is one disease everyone still knows and fears - syphilis, spread by sex. So the modern vampire - exotic, erotic, everything the Victorian gentleman hated and wished to be. And now 'syphilis' returns in the 80s, this time called AIDS, and vampires are once again in the vogue. Even the old urban legends about syphilis - e.g., that it can be cured by having sex with a virgin or a baby - have returned for AIDS...

Now this is also a tale, of course, but I think it rings more true than the other one, for various reasons. Anyway, I think a more interesting approach to mythology is - why does this speak to us rather than - can we fit a natural origin to this story.

KenderWizard

2011-05-24, 12:44 PM

Yeah, it's more of a comedic satire on one of my pet peeves - finding naturalistic explanations to mythical creatures. Like claiming there were 'actual' vampires who suffered from protoporphyria, which explains their symptoms. You can always tell a pretty story, but is it true?

And I think a far more interesting question is - what does this myth tell us about humans? Our fears and preferences? The old vampire legends weren't about sex and romance, they were about disease. Vampires weren't beautiful and they DID! NOT! SPARKLE!, they were bloated creatures who sucked the life from the living and made more of themselves.

Then comes the 19th century and disease isn't as prevalent. But fear of sex and sexuality is rampant. And there is one disease everyone still knows and fears - syphilis, spread by sex. So the modern vampire - exotic, erotic, everything the Victorian gentleman hated and wished to be. And now 'syphilis' returns in the 80s, this time called AIDS, and vampires are once again in the vogue. Even the old urban legends about syphilis - e.g., that it can be cured by having sex with a virgin or a baby - have returned for AIDS...

Now this is also a tale, of course, but I think it rings more true than the other one, for various reasons. Anyway, I think a more interesting approach to mythology is - why does this speak to us rather than - can we fit a natural origin to this story.

That's some interesting thinky words you've got there. Good theory! Sometimes I wish I'd stuck with my plan to study English in college... I think I would have gone crazy if I had, though.

Now that I know the beautiful bluewind & Jacklu story of the A, I think seeing the A there will make me smile too. I wouldn't object to the adding of a + if the people who aren't in LGBTA would like to.

Asta Kask

2011-05-24, 12:52 PM

Got much of it from gaming supplements! :smallbiggrin:

KenderWizard

2011-05-24, 12:54 PM

Ah, gaming. Is there any facet of this life it cannot bring insight to? :smalltongue:

Qaera

2011-05-24, 12:56 PM

Do same-sex couples with similar body shapes share clothing?

Coidzor

2011-05-24, 12:58 PM

Do same-sex couples with similar body shapes share clothing?

I imagine that varies from couple to couple regardless of what sexes make up that couple.

Mina Kobold

2011-05-24, 01:35 PM

Yeah, it's more of a comedic satire on one of my pet peeves - finding naturalistic explanations to mythical creatures. Like claiming there were 'actual' vampires who suffered from protoporphyria, which explains their symptoms. You can always tell a pretty story, but is it true?

And I think a far more interesting question is - what does this myth tell us about humans? Our fears and preferences? The old vampire legends weren't about sex and romance, they were about disease. Vampires weren't beautiful and they DID! NOT! SPARKLE!, they were bloated creatures who sucked the life from the living and made more of themselves.

Then comes the 19th century and disease isn't as prevalent. But fear of sex and sexuality is rampant. And there is one disease everyone still knows and fears - syphilis, spread by sex. So the modern vampire - exotic, erotic, everything the Victorian gentleman hated and wished to be. And now 'syphilis' returns in the 80s, this time called AIDS, and vampires are once again in the vogue. Even the old urban legends about syphilis - e.g., that it can be cured by having sex with a virgin or a baby - have returned for AIDS...

Now this is also a tale, of course, but I think it rings more true than the other one, for various reasons. Anyway, I think a more interesting approach to mythology is - why does this speak to us rather than - can we fit a natural origin to this story.

Interestingly, we actually discussed this development in Media (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199556) recently. Almost a déjà vu...

That means they changed the Matrix! Quick, everybody pretend to be Rainbow Dash!

And because I should be on topic sometimes: I personally like the letter aesthetically and the story behid it is very sweet, so I vote we keep it. It would be all sad and alone if we threw it out. :smallfrown:

golentan

2011-05-24, 01:51 PM

Do same-sex couples with similar body shapes share clothing?

Like coid says, that varies couple to couple. My boyfriend and I never swapped clothing while we were dating, whereas interestingly enough one of my girlfriends did.

Lissou

2011-05-24, 02:41 PM

Do same-sex couples with similar body shapes share clothing?

I've shared clothing with boyfriends before and I'm female, so I don't think it's only same sex couples who do.
It would probably depend on their respective styles and whether they prefer the idea of having their own clothes or the idea of sharing them.

golentan

2011-05-24, 10:44 PM

My sexuality bounces again. It's too confusing.

KenderWizard

2011-05-25, 02:40 AM

Do same-sex couples with similar body shapes share clothing?

I certainly share (read: steal) my boyfriend's clothing. He doesn't take my clothes, though, because he thinks it's a bit weird to wear someone else's clothes.

Ashen Lilies

2011-05-25, 05:53 AM

I'd probably be annoyed if a boyfriend/girlfriend took my clothes. I'm kinda... picky about my possessions. >.>

Mono Vertigo

2011-05-25, 07:14 AM

I borrowed my boyfriend's clothes once for a cosplay... our casual clothes are so different in style, though, that we don't even think of doing it the rest of the time. He's the metrosexual one and always wears classy stuff; I just wear whatever T-shirt and jeans are more comfy.

Asta Kask

2011-05-25, 07:44 AM

Nope. It's a gap in my education, I admit it.

Personally I've always thought that the lycanthropy legend was about PMS. Think about it - for a few days every month the afflicted become raging, shaggy beasts who tear apart anyone coming in the way.

I wouldn't tell a PMSing woman that she's shaggy...
Did you know men get PMS? Apparently it's a thing.

Although my theory erroneously predicts that a werewolf's Achilles' Heel should be dark chocolate, not silver.

Needs work.

Mono Vertigo

2011-05-25, 08:32 AM

Ah, but chocolate is poisonous to canines, so it is still somewhat valid!

Asta Kask

2011-05-25, 11:08 AM

Anachronism... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2kD1YUtA5o)

golentan

2011-05-25, 11:36 AM

Anachronism... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2kD1YUtA5o)

Well, singing about prostitutes was generally considered inappropriate regardless of time period. Though I don't see relevance, this thread is about alternate sexualities, not straight people and brothels.

Hand up: Anachronism five.

Asta Kask

2011-05-25, 11:48 AM

Gay bar... gays... right?

golentan

2011-05-25, 11:54 AM

Gay bar... gays... right?

Not before the 20th century. A gay man was a womanizer. A gay woman was a prostitute. A gay house was a brothel. So I'm guessing a gay bar would be one with an attached bar.

Isn't etymology fun? Now imagine that you have 8000 years of slang like that that you've had to relearn every few decades until it seems like it's crowding out everything else in your head, and you may understand my previously stated distaste for language despite my love of puns. I've taken to just doing a hard wipe every time I die because spending a few years to a decade as a giggling gibberish spewer while I relearn things is preferable to the alternatives...

Nix Nihila

2011-05-25, 11:58 AM

How I wish that the word "Gay" was adopted by homosexuals because it meant happy like most people assume...

Mina Kobold

2011-05-25, 01:52 PM

How I wish that the word "Gay" was adopted by homosexuals because it meant happy like most people assume...

It started as prison slang to my knowledge, but I assumed it was similar to pretty boy. Which is somehow a taunt.

Personally I have not been offended by either term since the Great War, being happy and pretty never struck me as negatives.

Did the homosexual and prostitute meanings even overlap at all? As far as I know gay meant happy from the start of the twentieth century to sometime in the eighties when it began meaning homosexual. I am probably wrong, however. ^_^'

Nix Nihila

2011-05-25, 02:19 PM

Well, for a reasonable time it meant sexually carefree and immoral, if I recall correctly. That's where the whole homosexual meaning came from.

Note: I am not an etymologist. I may quite possibly be incorrect.

Heliomance

2011-05-25, 04:52 PM

I'd heard that it may have come in from the flamboyance stereotype, as in, "He's a little gay for a real man, don't you think?"

Coidzor

2011-05-25, 05:12 PM

Personally I have not been offended by either term since the Great War, being happy and pretty never struck me as negatives.

You're over a century old?

Lissou

2011-05-26, 01:29 AM

Well, for a reasonable time it meant sexually carefree and immoral, if I recall correctly. That's where the whole homosexual meaning came from..

You're right.

late 14c., "full of joy, merry; light-hearted, carefree;" also "wanton, lewd, lascivious" [...] The word gay by the 1890s had an overall tinge of promiscuity -- a gay house was a brothel. The suggestion of immorality in the word can be traced back at least to the 1630s

Winthur

2011-05-26, 02:07 AM

It had to mean something different, otherwise it implied that queer people (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIOSOlqMaj8) were lazy. :smalltongue:

Anethiel

2011-05-26, 07:06 AM

I found this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhl9MLno424) beautiful and heartwarming :smallsmile:

FlashRah

2011-05-26, 07:43 AM

DeadManSleeping

2011-05-26, 08:22 AM

I am bored out of my skull and I've been meaning to post on this thread, but have never had anything to say in the various topics. So I figure if the triangle shaped piece doesn't fit in the circle I'll force it in. Do I at least get points for crappy metaphors?

Use lubricant.

Know what's weird? My mother knows I'm gay? It's not like she minds but I honestly don't recall telling her. Then again I didn't remember that she was married so my memory is eating soup with a fork.

Parents are often smarter than you think. They can also tell when you've just moved your vegetables around the plate instead of actually eating them. Seriously, despite what many teens think, you don't suddenly become completely oblivious the moment you produce a child. And your mother spends a lot of time with you, I'm guessing.

unosarta

2011-05-26, 08:24 AM

bluewind95

2011-05-26, 08:41 AM

Parents always seem to know, especially if they are accepting about it. My mom knew, my friend's mom knew about her older brother. Dunno if anyone else has experience on this, but they just seem to know, man. :smalleek:

Not always, though. My mom and sister thought I was a lesbian. I really am just asexual.

Thufir

2011-05-26, 08:47 AM

Not always, though. My mom and sister thought I was a lesbian. I really am just asexual.

Possibly indicates perceptiveness combined with lack of knowledge about less normal sexualities still - perhaps they thought "[bluewind] clearly isn't interested in men, she must be a lesbian." Asexuality being considerably less widely known about.

unosarta

2011-05-26, 09:05 AM

Yeah, Thufir has a good point as well. Also, my mom has a really close friend who is gay, and my friend's mom has connections in the LGBT community. *shrug*

golentan

2011-05-26, 09:47 AM

And everyone knew I was bisexual for years before I could admit it. Except for my parents, who were surprised when I came out.

Qaera

2011-05-26, 10:08 AM

Yeah, my parents don't even seem to consider that queer people exist, let alone moi. Except for the uncle's brother-in-law, but we don't talk about him. Not sure which smilie is apropos.

Anethiel

2011-05-26, 12:17 PM

From my (statistically insignificant) experience, parents always know... not always at the highest cognitive level, though. They might blow the thought away, or rationalize it away, or just never let it escalate from the subconscious level.
They might also know but fake not knowing, because they are in denial, they don't want to deal with it or they are afraid of what is going to happen.

In my specific case I think I have a "I'm not strong enough to not try to change him, so I'd be better off pretending he's not" from my mother, and a "As long as it does not affect directly the life of the family, there are other things to deal with first" from my father.

Asta Kask

2011-05-26, 12:19 PM

They probably know about your porn stash as well.

Coidzor

2011-05-26, 12:20 PM

Not always, though. My mom and sister thought I was a lesbian. I really am just asexual.

There's no accounting for De Nile, after all.

DeadManSleeping

2011-05-26, 12:30 PM

There's no accounting for De Nile, after all.

Well, average rainfall and flooding are pretty well tracked, and the contribution of the Nile's water to Egyptian agriculture is significant, so it can probably be calculated pretty well. Its tourism value is also probably easy to figure out.

Also, you don't need to transcribe your accent. :smallwink:

Caustic Soda

2011-05-26, 03:28 PM

@Parents: I dunno, if my parents knew then they did a good job of faking (slight) surprise. I doubt it was a large surprise, since I've never actually been interested in girls. OTOH, it took me a while to acknowledge to myself that I was gay. *Shrug*

rayne_dragon

2011-05-26, 09:36 PM

Parents always seem to know, especially if they are accepting about it. My mom knew, my friend's mom knew about her older brother. Dunno if anyone else has experience on this, but they just seem to know, man. :smalleek:

*snickers*
Not mine. My parents don't even know my phone number... although that has more to do with it being a cell phone and living halfway across the country from my mummy than anything else. :smalltongue:

Coidzor

2011-05-27, 12:40 AM

*snickers*
Not mine. My parents don't even know my phone number... although that has more to do with it being a cell phone and living halfway across the country from my mummy than anything else. :smalltongue:

That just sounds like you're not on speaking terms with them. :smalltongue:

Skeppio

2011-05-27, 12:48 AM

Eh, my parents still don't know I'm bi. My brother and all my friends do. I just haven't gotten around to coming out to the parents. Mostly because my step-dad is a tad (understatement) intolerant of damn near anything different to himself. :smallannoyed: And I honestly don't know where my mum stands on LGBT stuff. She seems to flip-flop whenever it comes up on the news, papers, etc. Maybe someday I'll bring it up, preferably if step-dad's not around.

Mono Vertigo

2011-05-27, 04:46 AM

My mother either was completely unaware of my asexuality, either was so aware she knew my unlikeliness to settle with anyone would allow her to keep me for herself at home. Other than that, she's extremely accepting and find me and my boyfriend adorable, especially since she remembers he hated physical contacts before, and now, we're glued to each other. :smallwink:
I learnt however my father, who passed away right after Christmas 2005, was so homophobic he would have outright thrown me out of the house. I didn't welcome the revelation very well, because he was my dad, and the best dad ever, and he had never seemed capable of doing it to me. Although he was not the kind of person understand that if I hang out with a FtM, we're both technically straight, bigots, no matter how good parents, don't see the difference. Understandably, I have mixed and very uncomfortable feelings about his death now.

Blisstake

2011-05-27, 06:30 PM

My parents know I'm gay, and I know they know, but I'm not sure they know I know they know. I think I'll officially tell them when my boyfriend visits.

Mina Kobold

2011-05-28, 04:26 AM

You're over a century old?

Technically the Great War ended 78 years ago, but to elaborate:

It wasn't going well for the Americans and the Hessian garrison of Trenton decided that they could forego sentries and have a Christmas feast. Unfortunately Washington and his forces decided that very night to attack, capturing most of the Hessians.

So you see, my lad, the true moral behind the battle of Trenton is that if you party too hardy, George Washington will kick your butt. Any questions?

On the topic of parental deductivity; I don't think my parents even know what asexuality is, but they'd likely be accepting of it. :smallsmile:

I can't say it with certanity, though. Sexuality rarely take much precedence in our conversations, but they are usually rational and open-minded about my interests.

What does De Nile mean, by the way? Is it a cake? I hope it's a cake.

Miscast_Mage

2011-05-28, 04:26 AM

@Musashi: Aww, that sounds terrible with your dad.:smallfrown: It's always unsettling to think of someone you know for so long would disagree with what is basically a fundamental part of you.

Oh, and yeah, guess who's back, spooshies!:smallcool:

My parents know I'm gay, but that's more due to me occasionally forgeting to delete the internet history .:smallredface: They don't know of my ravenous appetite for older men, though, or that I'm starting to act on said appetite more, if ya get my drift.:smallbiggrin: Still, I'd like to tell them about it, and I know I'll have to at some stage, but I've tested the waters jokingly and they freaked a little when I implied I'd go for a guy in his early/mid twenties. Goddess knows how they'd react if I told them my ideal man is thirties-and-up!:smalleek: Also annoying was when my dad was joking about me getting a boyfriend; his name would be Corey and he would be fabulous, said with lisp and all.:smallsigh: I know he was joking, but still; DO. NOT. WANT.:smallfurious:

I also bring a new tale to the table! So, I was chatting with this guy online for a while, flirting and whatnot. He was very shy and timid, but it was pretty cute, and I never thought I'd be the more confident one this early in life.:smallbiggrin: So, we arranged to meet there a few days ago, and after we went to the hotel and *ahem* sorted business, we just lay there in eachother's arms for hours; just snuggling and cuddling. It was practically heaven. The only reason it was cut short was because he had to go with his brother.:smallfrown: That's what I want from guys: Physical affection, y'know? Anyways, I'm rambling now.

Coidzor

2011-05-28, 04:49 AM

So you see, my lad, the true moral behind the battle of Trenton is that if you party too hardy, George Washington will kick your butt. Any questions?

Yes. What's your point in all of this? Which extends to your earlier claims of being quite venerable as well.

What does De Nile mean, by the way? Is it a cake? I hope it's a cake.

No. It is not a form of cake. And it's not just a river in Egypt, either. :smalltongue:

Technically the Great War ended 78 years ago, but to elaborate:

2011 - 1918 = 93. Even 92 is greater than 78.

I added enough so that one would theoretically be old enough to appreciate events.

Lissou

2011-05-28, 05:29 AM

What does De Nile mean, by the way? Is it a cake? I hope it's a cake.

It means denial.

Mystic Muse

2011-05-28, 08:33 AM

So you see, my lad, the true moral behind the battle of Trenton is that if you party too hardy, George Washington will kick your butt. Any questions?

Just one.

What did any of that have to do with you saying Grace didn't die in that dimension!?:smalltongue:

Astrella

2011-05-28, 10:30 AM

So, I've been going through some huge mood swings this week. At times I'm very confident about myself and I'll make plans on stuff I wanna do after the exams. On others, I'm incredible down and just feel so off about myself and fear that I'm only being self-delusional and just wanna curl up under my sheets and never come out again.

I actually almost had a panic attack when having dinner with a friend and had to excuse myself and leave because I didn't wanna break in tears in public. And now I'm home for study break and coupled with stress for exams my mum also got angry at me yesterday because "I don't share anything with her anymore". But I can't tell her why I've been feeling so down to her and I hate having to lie.

Something very awesome did happen though :smallsmile: :
A friend of one of my online friends I started talking to a few weeks ago on Facebook confessed that she had feelings for me. She's really awesome and I've had a crush on her from pretty much the moment I started talking to her. (Much to the satisfaction of our friend, who started getting frustrated at us bumbling around when we obviously like each other so much.) So, yay! :smallsmile:

She also doesn't mind my muddled up gender identity one bit. (She calls me her girl or lady all the time.) :smallredface:

(Wasn't sure if I should post the last thing her; feared it might come off wrong. :/ )

WarKitty

2011-05-28, 11:59 AM

Why is it that we have such dread of our parents' anger? I know I'm going to have to come out to my parents eventually. I also know that it won't be for at least another few months, and that starting this fall I won't be living with them or in any way financially dependent. So why is it still so scary?

Asta Kask

2011-05-28, 12:03 PM

Because they are emotionally important people to you and we are social beings?

WarKitty

2011-05-28, 12:05 PM

Because they are emotionally important people to you and we are social beings?

I'm not even sure anymore. Because I feel like I could handle mom being upset, crying, even not talking about me - anything other than her yelling at me. Which is how she generally reacts to things like this. And it scares me no end when she does, even when I know that she can't do anything.

Asta Kask

2011-05-28, 12:10 PM

Eh, I'm thirty-seven and when my Mom says 'Jump', I jump. Of course, this may say more about me...

scarletsorcerer

2011-05-28, 12:25 PM

My parents both totally knew that I'm gay. My mum was really cool about it, she just pretended not to know until I told her about it. Dad, though, wasn't the best at handling it. He wasn't bothered that I'm gay, but he reeeeally wanted me to tell him. When I'd stay at his (my parents split up, and he didn't live with us) he'd quite often get drunk and get upset about being a bad dad. And then he'd say to me something like "you can tell me anything, you know, I'd always love you", and I'd just say "I know". So he always looked disappointed. Which made me want to give him a punch in the face - but thats a whole other story.

So, to summarise, yeah, they both knew for ages.

Coidzor

2011-05-28, 12:35 PM

Why is it that we have such dread of our parents' anger?

When we first encounter it we are tiny and not fully aware of the world as it is due to our minds still developing, so it is not understood properly and forms something that we just blanket label as terrible and frightening. As far as I can tell, anyway, it's something along those lines or similar.

golentan

2011-05-28, 12:46 PM

Mina Kobold

2011-05-28, 12:55 PM

Yes. What's your point in all of this? Which extends to your earlier claims of being quite venerable as well.

Being very very silly, and referencing my favourite webcomic (http://www.egscomics.com/?date=2003-01-10).

2011 - 1918 = 93. Even 92 is greater than 78.

I added enough so that one would theoretically be old enough to appreciate events.

Who said it was that Great war? >_>

Or that I can count? <_<

Just one.

What did any of that have to do with you saying Grace didn't die in that dimension!?:smalltongue:

Not a thing. :smalltongue:

Coidzor

2011-05-28, 01:08 PM

Being very very silly, and referencing my favourite webcomic (http://www.egscomics.com/?date=2003-01-10).

That addresses one thing, but not really the whole claiming to be ancient thing.

Who said it was that Great war? >_>

Pretty much the only one. :smalltongue:

golentan

2011-05-28, 01:38 PM

That addresses one thing, but not really the whole claiming to be ancient thing.

There are several thousand sentient beings who've been hanging out on this worthless mudball for more than 150 years. Keveak could well be one of them.

Coidzor

2011-05-28, 01:42 PM

There are several thousand sentient beings who've been hanging out on this worthless mudball for more than 150 years. Keveak could well be one of them.

Mis-directed Misanthropy aside, generally there's a point to saying it, like in your case it's a chance to be humorously misanthropic or at least seems to be.

golentan

2011-05-28, 01:53 PM

No. I'm honestly that misanthropic and do genuinely believe the things I say. I use humor as an internal redirection method to avoid having to cope with the ramifications of dealing with people all day every day.

Sometimes people who feel cut off from society in general take advantage of the fact they know they'll never be believed to engage in some honesty and clear away some of the detritus and grief from their soul, but don't care to elaborate because of the potential consequences of overstepping or someone focusing in on what they said. I'm not saying that's necessarily what Keveak was doing, but it's a potential explanation that evens fits with his evasiveness of providing his own. And I don't really see why you're fixating.

Alternatively, he could be baiting you with deliberate evasiveness for the cheap laugh value when you overthought a previous comment. That can also be amusing.

We may never know. *sage nod*

Coidzor

2011-05-28, 02:02 PM

And I don't really see why you're fixating.

Understanding. I am curious as to how his or her mind works, especially with the things that, as you put it, Keveak has fixated upon that I've said. I don't even know if there's an English as a Second Language issue going on here due to common idioms being misinterpreted or misunderstood or if the alternative you put forward is the case.

So I ask questions, as they're the only way to act in good faith as far as I know.

Mina Kobold

2011-05-28, 03:13 PM

That addresses one thing, but not really the whole claiming to be ancient thing.

I never claimed such! I claimed to have been of a certain conviction since the Great War, not that I have lived since the ancient times. There's quite the difference.

As for why I did so; I could be telling the truth, I could just be a silly jokster, but telling you which would be no fun at all. :smalltongue:

Pretty much the only one. :smalltongue:

Depends on your sense of scale, really. So I can plausibly stick to my ridiculous claim!

rayne_dragon

2011-05-28, 03:56 PM

Depends on your sense of scale, really. So I can plausibly stick to my ridiculous claim!

Plus an individual has often their own sense of what is important to them. While "the Great War" often refers to a particular one, some people may feel that other wars are more worthy of the title. I suspect that if a war had ever affected me more directly, I'd be inclined to think of that war as "the great war." Plus in all of human histroy, I doubt that single war was the only one ever refered to as such, although that tends to be the one most recently refered to as such, at least by English-speaking cultures (as it may differ for other languages, of which I don't speak any well enough to tell you anything about how they refer to historical events). Also, arguably, WW2 was an extension of WW1, thus still technically part of "the Great War." It really all depends on how one views the situation.

It can be rather interesting just how subjective things can be - including things like sexuality and gender.

celtois

2011-05-29, 02:20 PM

Hey guys.. I ran across this really cool story.

http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/babiespregnancy/babies/article/995112--parents-keep-child-s-gender-secret

I figured with all the talk about gender being an icky convention you guys might appreciate seeing this.

At the very least I found it really heart warming :smallsmile:

WarKitty

2011-05-29, 06:38 PM

*sigh* I really hate it when parents say that you can tell them anything and don't actually mean it...somehow I think we'd never get past "So there's this girl..."

The Rose Dragon

2011-05-29, 06:42 PM

I figured with all the talk about gender being an icky convention you guys might appreciate seeing this.

At the very least I found it really heart warming :smallsmile:

This was brought up in another thread. It was a matter of contention, to say the least.

Asta Kask

2011-05-30, 03:53 AM

*sigh* I really hate it when parents say that you can tell them anything and don't actually mean it...somehow I think we'd never get past "So there's this girl..."

*hugs*

*hugs*

Tonal Architect

2011-05-30, 04:46 AM

Sorry. Dropping here outta the blue, but this is the one safe place for venting I know, so...

I don't know. I'm crying. Not like sweet blue innocent tears. More like sulphurous, acid tears that come up just as much from the anger as from the smoke-like odor we all feel from the smell of wrong.

Well, wrong is something worth debating... But ain't right supposed to be a model of behaviour in which we all would fit? I'm no longer that bound by consensus, but still, to reprimand people solely on their sex-life feels like a stupid victimless crime.

I don't know... Maybe I'm just angry. I recently came to conclude on how society gradually punishes thought, and institutionalises dogmas (and stupidity at large) based on tradition, for, take teachers, shall we say...

...can't really stimulate students to make up their own minds, you know, parents at large will bitch like hell if their children don't behave to their expecations, and rather, behave to a more logic-like standard...

Morals overrule logic thought. And morals not always correspond to anything logic at all.

Sorry, but honestly... Even though I might have my own non-conformant sexual behaviour, I'm still able to blend.

I really feel for the guy who would rather kill than go without a skirt. And the fact that maybe such person would REALLY need to go that far to use such garment really saddens me.

{Scrubbed} godamnit...

Partysan

2011-05-30, 07:17 AM

*hugs sharp41*

I know, I know...
Tears are somewhat out of character for me, but I have lain awake for whole nights, because of that burning hate, aggression, frustration and generic as well as specific killing urges I get when my repression of all the thoughts I have about what people do to the minds and personalities of others and especially to their children's and think themselves right weakens.

*hugs sharp41 harder*

I like body contact, it calms me.

(minor nitpick: the reprimanding isn't the victimless one, the sex-life is. but you knew that.)

WarKitty

2011-05-30, 08:51 AM

Heliomance

2011-05-30, 09:48 AM

Currently dressed up en femme in the privacy of my own room. Seriously considering wandering downstairs dressed like this, but I'm not sure how my housemates would take it. I know they're okay with TG people in general - we have several TG friends - but I don't think any of them have a clue about my gender-confusion. Not sure if it would freak them out too much, having their image of me suddenly changed like that.

WarKitty

2011-05-30, 10:24 AM

Heliomance

2011-05-30, 10:33 AM

Went to go and do it, got as far as opening my door, then chickened out >_<

Coidzor

2011-05-30, 10:37 AM

Maybe telling them first would make you more comfortable? Depends on the person I guess.

That's probably a good idea, yeah.

DeadManSleeping

2011-05-30, 10:43 AM

I dunno, I see it going like this.

"Hey guys."
"Hey Heli-ohhh."
*pause*
"Dude?"
"Yeah?"
"Are you wearing a dress?"
"Yup"
"Why?"
"Because I feel like it."
"O-kayyyy."
*matter is dropped*

Or maybe I just have odd friends.

Coidzor

2011-05-30, 11:02 AM

From what I understand the first place most people would go upon being confronted in such a manner would be that one either had lost a bet or was trolling them, given the scenario of one just walking into the living room and demanding their attention and interrupting whatever it is that people do on couches in living rooms in such a manner

And even if they're supportive rather than showing a salutary apathy, without explanation the next place they go would be to start being busybodies and trying to set him up on blind dates with other guys, jumping to the conclusion that Heliomance is gay.

Heliomance

2011-05-30, 11:42 AM

Coidzor

2011-05-30, 01:11 PM

To be fair, it probably would. Doesn't stop the prospect from being scary.

Well, why is it scary? If both you and the rest of us know what's got you scared the collective putting of heads together might be able to assuage your fear so that its power over you is broken.

golentan

2011-05-30, 01:17 PM

Well, why is it scary? If both you and the rest of us know what's got you scared the collective putting of heads together might be able to assuage your fear so that its power over you is broken.

People are programmed to find the uncertain scary for reasons I don't fathom. Enough so that they won't pursue knowledge out of fear of what it might be in many cases.

I can see both arguments in some cases (like this) where it can affect friendships and living arrangements in major ways. But I still kind of find letting fear rule your life... distasteful to put it mildly. And lying more so. Which is why I'm so anti-closet.

Heliomance

2011-05-30, 01:28 PM

What would likely happen:
"Hey."
"Buh? You're wearing... huh."
"Hmm?"
"You're wearing a skirt."
"Yes."
"Uh... why?"
"It's comfortable."
"Fair enough, I suppose..."

Scenario my brain is throwing up:
"Hey."
"GAH! YOU - SKIRT - BREASTS - GAH!"
"Something wrong?"
"DID NOT NEED TO SEE THAT! DO NOT WANT!"
*flee*
*weirdness*

Lord Raziere

2011-05-30, 01:41 PM

People are programmed to find the uncertain scary for reasons I don't fathom. Enough so that they won't pursue knowledge out of fear of what it might be in many cases.

I can see both arguments in some cases (like this) where it can affect friendships and living arrangements in major ways. But I still kind of find letting fear rule your life... distasteful to put it mildly. And lying more so. Which is why I'm so anti-closet.

I once heard from a wise teacher of mine that people don't really fear the unknown or uncertain, so much as fear being unable to return to what things were before stepping into that unknown. that, for example, high schoolers do not fear college because it is unknown, they fear it because it means they will never be able to return to what life was like before college, because its y'know- irreversible.

so I'm thinking the fear of coming out of the closet is like that- its not the unknown that scares you, it might be more the fact that you think that once you do come out of it the worst scenario will happen and you won't be able to return what things were like before you came out of it. in short, its not a fear of the unknown- humans face the unknown all time, else why wake up?- its the fear of being unable to turn back.

in short, sometimes we have to stop letting the worst case scenario rule us, we should only acknowledge that it is one thing that may happen and prepare for it certainly...but not to let it stop you.

golentan

2011-05-30, 02:12 PM

I don't see how that's meaningfully distinct from fear of the unknown. The concern is that resolving it will turn the unknown into the terrible. But if that's the case, the terrible already exists, and the fear is not of the terrible but of knowing and facing it. It's fear of knowing that does it, that holds people back. Because they can cope with the terrible if it comes true, and often know it explicitly. It's still the uncertainty. In that explanation though, it's just the uncertainty of what the uncertainty will resolve as.

And I think that in most cases people are afraid of getting up in the morning to a certain extent, but that repeated exposure to fear stimuli tends to desensitize them. And the alternative is death, which, heh, is scary and unknown. Compare people with certain mental disorders who are incapable of coping with the different or facing the future in a meaningful way (I sometimes get borderline that way during bad episodes myself). Or take away someone's routine from them and watch what happens to them. Stress (and fear) through the roof.

It's all just another form of denial.

Asta Kask

2011-05-30, 02:14 PM

Well, why is it scary? If both you and the rest of us know what's got you scared the collective putting of heads together might be able to assuage your fear so that its power over you is broken.

He's revealing something about himself that is intensely personal, and he's revealing it to people he has to meet. And there's no going back. I'd be scared too.

Coidzor

2011-05-30, 02:38 PM

He's revealing something about himself that is intensely personal, and he's revealing it to people he has to meet. And there's no going back. I'd be scared too.

But is it just that or by taking the words away from Heliomance to say are we denying Heliomance self-determination to name their fear and understand it?

Carecalmo

2011-05-30, 02:43 PM

@Heliomance
I'm on the "Tell first, show later" wagon. But then again, I'm quite good at blurting things out if I set my mind to it, even if I'm not always sure I want/dare to. I guess that you're okay with saying it out loud and that the issue is that you have to tell your housemates. If it's also the "saying it aloud" thing in general, I've found that telling people I want to tell them something, but that I can't say it makes it a fair bit easier to write on a piece of paper and then showing them. I guess you could do that if you want it to, but it does seem awfully grave.
Anyway, you make it sound a lot like your friends would be fine with it - possibly even happy to see the load taken off your mind. :)

Also, hello everybody. :smallredface: Young man-thing from Denmark calling in to show my support for this thread. I've been lurking a bit too long, I think. You seem a great lot. And please excuse my English. It is rusty and old, like a door that's been opened and closed too many times, it sometimes gets stuck.

golentan

2011-05-30, 02:49 PM

Hey Carecalmo. Welcome! And worry not about your english: it seems well oiled and smells of sunflowers. I don't know why I like sunflower smell so much, but it's nice. Comparatively, my mind is like a landfill. Everything useless gets tossed in and sits there moldering, driving down property values and delivering long term toxic buildup to the surrounding environment.

Edit: Mmmm... sunflowers.

Mina Kobold

2011-05-30, 03:10 PM

Well met, comrade! Always astounding to make the acquintance of another Delicious Pastry fellow. :smallsmile:

Thine English may not be the greatest yet, but it will grow and astonish all within this thread and possibly even the entire Internet!

I may have been watching too much Thor lately. :smallredface:

Carecalmo

2011-05-30, 03:15 PM

Hey Carecalmo. Welcome! And worry not about your english: it seems well oiled and smells of sunflowers.

Thank you! Then I will not: Thank you!
On second thought, I suppose I ought to apologize for my language in general, not just my English. I've been studying linguistics for a few years now, and much like you shouldn't philosophiseszee with a philosophy student and you shouldn't count on a mathematician, it's unwise to speak to a linguist. :smalltongue:

As for the topic of this thread, I have a dilemma:

My boyfriend and I like to walk hand in hand on the sunny avenues and winding streets of capital city Copenhagen where I live, but lately we''ve been subject to a rather large amount of verbal abuse from passing cars, drunk bar guests smoking on the sidewalk and quite a few in between those two. Part of my spring was spent on learning how to assert my self and appreciate the intrinsic value of the individual (specifically, the individual that is my self (big things, I know)) and I've begun getting angrier/more & more frustrated with these slurs and bad jokes.
My boyfriend is a firm believer in ignoring them and walking on unperturbed, but I'm finding this more and more difficult without carrying a seething anger in the pit of my stomach with me. I would like to respect my hubby man-darling thing and not do anything, but I can't help thinking that it's wrong that they get to pester us.
I think there are two things I'll have to choose between: A) Finding a way of standing up to random hostile people on the street or B) learning to be unaffected by their actions and word-actions and feel pity or superiority or something for them in place of anger. Cold disdain, perhaps?

Anyway. Advice?

ALSO! @Keveak: Thank you! Thou dost me too great an honour with the words of thine. My appreciation for the Thundering Odinson has so far been unrivalled, nay unique, amongst my friends and allies. It a joy to meet one such as you! (now if only there was a way of writing in the Asgardian font from the comics..)

Blisstake

2011-05-30, 03:21 PM

I think there are two things I'll have to choose between: A) Finding a way of standing up to random hostile people on the street or B) learning to be unaffected by their actions and word-actions and feel pity or superiority or something for them in place of anger. Cold disdain, perhaps?

I really believe the best course of action is to ignore them (especially if they're drunk), and just be gladyou deprived them of their fun. What they want is a reaction, and if you give them one, you're really just making things worse.

golentan

2011-05-30, 03:26 PM

It's true. Getting a rise out of someone is the goal of most such people. They are the IRL version of Internet Trolls. And you must never feed the trolls.

Of course, if you're feeling particularly vindictive... smiling and thanking them for their input can drive such people spare.

WarKitty

2011-05-30, 03:27 PM

My personal preference is to visualize such people as children. Little children screaming out appropriately childish insults. It makes it a lot harder to be angry at them.

That said, I am in favor of standing up to people on occasion. Not just for your own sake, but for the sake of the kid nearby who's trying to figure out if it's ok for him to have a boyfriend. Just - pick your time and place, and come up with something to say that's more mature than what they're saying. My favorite tactic is to say "Thank you for your opinion" and then keep walking.

Edit: Eldritch'd

Lissou

2011-05-30, 04:11 PM

I'm not sure how you can learn to be unaffected by these people. But you can tell yourself that thanks to you, they've seen two guys walk hand in hand, and the more they see it, the more it will become part of normal life, and the less they'll react like morons.

Also... the more other people in the street see how some people can be jerk about it, the more they'll realise it's important to fight for equal rights even though it doesn't concern them directly.

Carecalmo

2011-05-30, 04:31 PM

Thanks for the advice everybody. I think part of my asking advice was also needing to vent it. There are some weeks, like last week, where it's been nearly every day, and part of the problem is that it gets pent up. Even stating the problem was good for my attitude towards it. It also helps that you all made some good points about bully behavior in general and this case in particular. :smallsmile:

One point:

That said, I am in favor of standing up to people on occasion. Not just for your own sake, but for the sake of the kid nearby who's trying to figure out if it's ok for him to have a boyfriend. Just - pick your time and place, and come up with something to say that's more mature than what they're saying.

I guess the main problem with picking my time and place is that it's not really something you can do with random abuse. I guess the next best thing is to prepare some words and then wait until a time where I feel comfortable saying them. But ideally, yes, I would also like to stand up not just for me, but also for people all-around. After all, you can argue that just by being your own particular kind of humanoid, you're advertising the right to do so to everybody.

WarKitty

2011-05-30, 04:57 PM

I guess the main problem with picking my time and place is that it's not really something you can do with random abuse. I guess the next best thing is to prepare some words and then wait until a time where I feel comfortable saying them. But ideally, yes, I would also like to stand up not just for me, but also for people all-around. After all, you can argue that just by being your own particular kind of humanoid, you're advertising the right to do so to everybody.

That's more what I meant, actually. That and think in advance about what kind of place you would be comfortable saying something like that. Some random dude shouting out of a car probably isn't worth it because no one's going to hear you in reply. Maybe in front of the bar might be, although drunk people are less receptive. But think in advance where you would be comfortable.

A question of my own:

Now, I'm fairly good at dealing with random insults. What I haven't figured out is how to deal with the...more sexual variety of comments. You know, the "keep it up" or "hey can I join?" type of remarks. Anyone have ideas?

Lissou

2011-05-30, 06:03 PM

Now, I'm fairly good at dealing with random insults. What I haven't figured out is how to deal with the...more sexual variety of comments. You know, the "keep it up" or "hey can I join?" type of remarks. Anyone have ideas?

Well, if they ask if they can join, I figure the obvious replies would be "you wish" or "in your dreams". But I'm not sure if that's the kind of things you meant or not at all.

Coidzor

2011-05-30, 06:28 PM

Well, if they ask if they can join, I figure the obvious replies would be "you wish" or "in your dreams". But I'm not sure if that's the kind of things you meant or not at all.

I have to admit, I've never heard of a better solution than that aside from not making out around a contingent of drunken louts at a frat party or picking better quality bars to frequent.

WarKitty

2011-05-30, 07:19 PM

I have to admit, I've never heard of a better solution than that aside from not making out around a contingent of drunken louts at a frat party or picking better quality bars to frequent.

Unfortunately, walking down the street or sitting in the public park can have the same effect.

Coidzor

2011-05-30, 08:19 PM

Unfortunately, walking down the street or sitting in the public park can have the same effect.

People asking to join in with... walking down the street... I'm sorry.

cycoris

2011-05-30, 08:39 PM

Grrrr...there's this girl that I just cannot seem to get out of my head...I feel like we'd be really good partners in a few years, but right now...she's 17, I'm 23, she's just too young. And I'm really tired of having to hide everything from my family.

Do you mean that she (as in, that specific person) is too young for you, or that her general age is too young for you? As someone who's 17 dating someone(s) who are about your age, that you'd automatically discount her maturity/thoughtfulness/intellect/understanding/whatever because of her age really rubs me the wrong way. :smallyuk::smallannoyed:

Probably just because I've spent the last couple of days listening to how every single aspect of my current relationships are BADWRONG and going to bring about the apocalypse. :smallsigh::smallfrown:

Coidzor

2011-05-30, 08:48 PM

Do you mean that she (as in, that specific person) is too young for you, or that her general age is too young for you? As someone who's 17 dating someone(s) who are about your age, that you'd automatically discount her maturity/thoughtfulness/intellect/understanding/whatever because of her age really rubs me the wrong way. :smallyuk::smallannoyed:

Probably just because I've spent the last couple of days listening to how every single aspect of my current relationships are BADWRONG and going to bring about the apocalypse. :smallsigh::smallfrown:

It's 6 years of age difference and very different life places potentially, cycoris. I've every confidence that Warkitty is not going to be oppressing or discriminating people on ageist lines anyway, especially given the high probability of more pertinent barriers to a relationship.

I'm guessing this is your mother stressing you out talking here. And for that I am sorry.

rayne_dragon

2011-05-30, 09:00 PM

I happen to enjoy a good walk down the street, myself. Although I generally prefer to do it alone most of the time. :smalltongue:

More seriously, the best I can suggest is just to ignore such comments or make a polite (or even rude) refusal of their 'request'.

As for the closet issue - I suggest telling before showing because it comes as less of a shock, although I think some people may not realize you're serious until they see it with their own eyes. People may say they are tolerant or accepting of something, but they often don't actually know until they are confronted by the reality. In my experience, most people react with tolerance, at least at first (I've had reactions ranging from "I kinda knew" to "I don't understand" to "you can't be bi!", but the most common one is "that's okay/cool" and moving on to less personal topics).

golentan

2011-05-30, 10:28 PM

Anyone else here read Lies of Locke Lamora and it's sequel? Anyone else keep forgetting that Locke had an offscreen love interest and keep expecting him and Jean to go at it like woodchucks?

It seems like I can't read or watch anything without seeing homoerotic subtext anymore.

Heliomance

2011-05-31, 02:06 AM

I'm part way through listening to it on audiobook. Haven't got very far though.

unosarta

2011-05-31, 12:03 PM

So I saw the Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert on Sunday. That movie is so beautiful/fantastic/amazing/fabulous. Thank you for mentioning it, Serpentine (?).

Serpentine

2011-05-31, 12:08 PM

Yaaaaay! Told you it's good! :smallbiggrin:
And doesn't Mr. Smith look hawt in drag? :smallamused:

golentan

2011-05-31, 05:14 PM

I keep meaning to see that. Maybe I'll get to it tonight, actually. Been a long time since I had this much free time.

unosarta

2011-05-31, 05:41 PM

Yaaaaay! Told you it's good! :smallbiggrin:
And doesn't Mr. Smith look hawt in drag? :smallamused:

Yes! Oh, it was so perfect, especially his wife. She made me laugh so hard.

I really loved the interaction between the son and the other drag queen (the one who was always asking about Hugo Weaving's sexuality).

742

2011-05-31, 06:34 PM

doesn't mean it can't also be lycantropes

so you mean they arent all:smallconfused: :smallredface:
that explains so much.:smallredface:

on the subject of coming out: dont bother with anyone who lies for a living has full two way conversations with god or you have within the past twenty four hours taken hostage at knifepoint. IME that never ends well. i wish i could give some advice more applicable in normal situations.

golentan

2011-05-31, 07:41 PM

so you mean they arent all:smallconfused: :smallredface:
that explains so much.:smallredface:

on the subject of coming out: dont bother with anyone who lies for a living has full two way conversations with god or you have within the past twenty four hours taken hostage at knifepoint. IME that never ends well. i wish i could give some advice more applicable in normal situations.

I don't know. Two of those have worked fine for me in the past.

rayne_dragon

2011-05-31, 09:36 PM

I don't know. Two of those have worked fine for me in the past.

Which two?

golentan

2011-05-31, 10:32 PM

Which two?

The ones that don't involve holding someone at knifepoint.

Also, just watched Priscilla. Good movie. Words can't express how ugly I find penciled eyebrows though.

Ashtagon

2011-06-01, 01:02 AM

The ones that don't involve holding someone at knifepoint.

Also, just watched Priscilla. Good movie. Words can't express how ugly I find penciled eyebrows though.

The stage show is just as good, if not better.

Asta Kask

2011-06-01, 04:14 AM

Now, I'm fairly good at dealing with random insults. What I haven't figured out is how to deal with the...more sexual variety of comments. You know, the "keep it up" or "hey can I join?" type of remarks. Anyone have ideas?

I agree with snappy come-backs.

*look them up and down and say*

"Sure. I'll get the gag-ball."
"Only if you bring your boyfriend."
"Nah. We only let real men join."

Unfortunately, this may precipitate violence, but that's why there's pepper spray on the equipment list.

bluewind95

2011-06-01, 08:27 AM

Now, I'm fairly good at dealing with random insults. What I haven't figured out is how to deal with the...more sexual variety of comments. You know, the "keep it up" or "hey can I join?" type of remarks. Anyone have ideas?

Look them up and down in disgust and say "No. We have standards."

At least, that's how I've responded to that kind of thing.

Knaight

2011-06-01, 08:59 AM

Look them up and down in disgust and say "No. We have standards."
I prefer:
We already met "[probably profanity laced insult]" quota.

Serpentine

2011-06-01, 09:31 AM

I think laughing in their face could have potential.

Coidzor

2011-06-01, 09:32 AM

For the ones that aren't confrontational drunks looking for a fight or those too?

Knaight

2011-06-01, 09:33 AM

For the ones that aren't confrontational drunks looking for a fight or those too?

And this is why we have tasers. :smallamused:

Serpentine

2011-06-01, 09:34 AM

They get a disdainful snigger (or stare, either way), a disappointed head-shake, and a brisk walk-away.

Asta Kask

2011-06-01, 09:36 AM

I think laughing in their face could have potential.

Spitting is good too.

Should people be allowed to 'transit' from one sex to another before they're 18?

Miscast_Mage

2011-06-01, 09:45 AM

Maybe I misread something here, but surely a polite "no thanks" would suffice, assuming they earnestly were interested in a ménage à trois and not trying to make fun of you? If they were just trolling though, or they don't accept a polite no, then you verbally rip them to shreds.

Should people be allowed to 'transit' from one sex to another before they're 18?

Hoooh boy. Anyone wanna take bets on how many pages we'll be discussing this heatedly?

Right, so, my opinion here; I don't believe that a general yes or no blanket answer should be used here. This is really better answered with a case-by-case decision, backed up by psyche(or whatever the proper term is) evalutions to make sure that transitioning is really both what they want and what's best for them.

Regardless of whether or not they're allowed to transition, though, I believe that they should be given access to T-blockers, to stop most of the effects of puberty untill the person is ready to transition. This means a lot less corrective surgery to get the person's body looking like the gender that person is. Also, I don't think many trans people would want to go through puberty for the sex they don't want to be anyway.

WarKitty

2011-06-01, 10:11 AM

Miscast_Mage

2011-06-01, 10:19 AM

Since I started that bit - the context was guys yelling at a strange female couple on the street/in a park or other public arena. Definitely trolling, very definitely objectifying - it's a little hard to explain, at least where I am that kind of harassment seems to be confined to female targets. Of course, that gets into my theories that homophobia is itself generally based in sexism...

Ah, I was misreading then. Curse my fuzzy memory!:smalltongue:

Odd, if anything I would have expected more harassment and insult slinging aimed at male couples, and female couples seen more as a fantasy; as you were saying, they were being objectified.

Asta Kask

2011-06-01, 10:20 AM

Asta Kask

2011-06-01, 10:27 AM

Hoooh boy. Anyone wanna take bets on how many pages we'll be discussing this heatedly?

Right, so, my opinion here; I don't believe that a general yes or no blanket answer should be used here. This is really better answered with a case-by-case decision, backed up by psyche(or whatever the proper term is) evalutions to make sure that transitioning is really both what they want and what's best for them.

Ok, let's change the question slightly. At what age should a person be considered grown up enough for a sex change? Or should it all be determined on a case-by-case basis and what guidelines should be in place for decision?

Serpentine

2011-06-01, 10:30 AM

This is a decision none of us are qualified to make, and should be left up to the professionals whose field it is.
What we can do is make sure those professionals are pushed to be as objective and fair as they can be.

It's a catch-22, really: the younger they start the better the results will be, but also the more likely it is that something might change. When it's irreversible, you've gotta be careful.

WarKitty

2011-06-01, 10:40 AM

Ah, I was misreading then. Curse my fuzzy memory!:smalltongue:

Odd, if anything I would have expected more harassment and insult slinging aimed at male couples, and female couples seen more as a fantasy; as you were saying, they were being objectified.

Yeah pretty much. I finally had someone explain it to me - in popular culture, you have the idea that male sexuality is powerful and dangerous, while female sexuality is passive and subservient. So gay men are seen as dangerous and predatory, whereas gay women are seen as cute and not serious.

Asta Kask

2011-06-01, 10:41 AM

Then where does the campy gay and the butch lesbian come from? Methinks it's a little too pat an answer.

Knaight

2011-06-01, 10:42 AM

Yeah pretty much. I finally had someone explain it to me - in popular culture, you have the idea that male sexuality is powerful and dangerous, while female sexuality is passive and subservient. So gay men are seen as dangerous and predatory, whereas gay women are seen as cute and not serious.

This is exactly the case. The small bright side is that this adds to the punch of any responses you make. Of course, this is along the lines of "at least the mine that took my legs was shiny", but its still there.

Miscast_Mage

2011-06-01, 10:43 AM

No, male couples get beat up. :smallfrown:

Well, same logic I was going by, just a step further.

Ok, let's change the question slightly. At what age should a person be considered grown up enough for a sex change? Or should it all be determined on a case-by-case basis and what guidelines should be in place for decision?

The problem with this is how varied maturity is in people, regardless of age. I'm still standing by a case-by-case judgement, but as for general guidelines, I'm not too sure. Maybe if the person in questions shows signs of some sort of gender identity disorder? I'm really not sure what mental elements are common enough across the transgender community that could be used a baseline.

It's a catch-22, really: the younger they start the better the results will be, but also the more likely it is that something might change. When it's irreversible, you've gotta be careful.

See, this is why I'm suggesting t-blockers(note: I have no clue what some of the side effects of different t-blockers may be. If anyone has good info or experience, feel free to correct me here). Because you're only delaying puberty as opposed to stopping it or switching to the other sex's puberty, you can back out with any major loss that I'm aware of. So at the very least, the person can have more time to find out if transitioning is really what they want.

WarKitty

2011-06-01, 10:59 AM

Then where does the campy gay and the butch lesbian come from? Methinks it's a little too pat an answer.

Well, it's a description of cultural norms, which means there's a lot of variation. Kind of like saying that culturally, men are supposed to be the breadwinners and women the homemakers. Not every heterosexual couple fits that idea, but it's still a cultural norm.

Even so...I think some of that comes from the idea that any relationship must have a dominant/masculine partner and a submissive/female partner. In a heterosexual relationship, that's assumed to correlate with the gender of the partners. So there's the assumption that one partner in a homosexual relationship fits the masculine paradigm and one fits the feminine paradigm.

There's also of course elements of conscious choice. Some men just like "feminine" things, and some women like "masculine" things. Some take on the role intentionally as an act of defiance. At this point, some may take it on in order to be recognizably homosexual.

Asta Kask

2011-06-01, 11:01 AM

See, this is why I'm suggesting t-blockers(note: I have no clue what some of the side effects of different t-blockers may be. If anyone has good info or experience, feel free to correct me here). Because you're only delaying puberty as opposed to stopping it or switching to the other sex's puberty, you can back out with any major loss that I'm aware of. So at the very least, the person can have more time to find out if transitioning is really what they want.

Looked up on wikipedia. Nothing special except this: Women who are or who may become pregnant must not handle crushed or broken finasteride tablets, because the medication could be absorbed through the skin. Gulp. But probably not relevant here.

But what are the effects of putting off puberty 'til later? I don't know.

Serpentine

2011-06-01, 11:02 AM

There's also an observable part of that - the camp gay and the butch lesbian really do exist, after all, if not to the extent they're depicted - although it's uncertain, as far as I know, how much of that is cultural and how much is biological/intrinsic.

DeadManSleeping

2011-06-01, 12:11 PM

I imagine that at least some camp/butchness is biological. A lot of people really have that "stereotypical" voice as their natural one, not just as an affectation.

Changing biological sex early in life is a risky venture. I know at least one person whose sexual identity took a complete 180 from trans to cis when she was in her teens. From what I know of SRS, it's not something that you want to go partway through and then decide you don't want it.

Worira

2011-06-01, 12:25 PM

Well, ideally, partway through SRS you're unconscious.

DeadManSleeping

2011-06-01, 12:31 PM

Right, what's the word for the multi-year process that surrounds SRS, which involves lots of hormones and expensive medication? That's the thing I meant.

Qaera

2011-06-01, 01:01 PM

HRT- Hormone Replacement Therapy.

rayne_dragon

2011-06-01, 09:21 PM

Well, ideally, partway through SRS you're unconscious.

I would hope that you're unconcious for the whole procedure... it sounds really, really painful to me.

Looked up on wikipedia. Nothing special except this: Women who are or who may become pregnant must not handle crushed or broken finasteride tablets, because the medication could be absorbed through the skin. Gulp. But probably not relevant here.

But what are the effects of putting off puberty 'til later? I don't know.

I think that to some degree it isn't a well-studied phenomina. The known effects are that of the chemical used to delay the onset of puberty, although I don't think it's finesteride that they use and I don't recall what they do use off the top of the head right now.

Spitting is good too.

Should people be allowed to 'transit' from one sex to another before they're 18?

People currently are allowed to. The medical practice for this is to give the patient drugs that delay the onset/effects of puberty until they are old enough to make an educated choice or have parental and psychological consent.

Hoooh boy. Anyone wanna take bets on how many pages we'll be discussing this heatedly?

Eight. :smalltongue:

Asta Kask

2011-06-02, 04:32 AM

I think that to some degree it isn't a well-studied phenomina. The known effects are that of the chemical used to delay the onset of puberty, although I don't think it's finesteride that they use and I don't recall what they do use off the top of the head right now.

Well, I looked up delayed puberty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_puberty), which is what it says on the label. Apart from the social awkwardness, there seems to be few side effects. I was worried that the bones would continue growing and you'd end up with 10 feet tall transgenders roaming the earth in search for food. But that does not seem to be a problem.

Serpentine

2011-06-02, 04:46 AM

So you continue on growing normally afterwards, with no likely significant long-term side-effects?
In that case, I think that might be the best compromise option.
Although, does it also effect brain development? That could be an issue.

Asta Kask

2011-06-02, 05:18 AM

That I don't know. I found this (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1129898) but it needs some interpretation before I can make heads or tails out of it. Also, the entire article would be nice... :smallsmile:

golentan

2011-06-02, 09:32 AM

That I don't know. I found this (http://www.jstor.org/pss/1129898) but it needs some interpretation before I can make heads or tails out of it. Also, the entire article would be nice... :smallsmile:

Don't have the full article, but that seems pretty clear cut to me. According to the article, early puberty leads to higher wordsmithing skills, poorer catching and/or engineering skills, and lower hemisphere bias (the process by which you favor actions or inputs received or given by one side of the brain). By contrast, late onset puberty leads to the opposite (lower verbal, higher spatial, higher hemisphere bias). Then it starts with a suggestion that since girls tend to hit puberty earlier it could be that that's a better explanation of the supposed differences between boys and gals in tests which tend to show statistical differences.

Lord Raziere

2011-06-02, 09:59 AM

huh....that might actually explain me...I'm a great wordsmith, don't really favor logic or intuition but use both and last time I checked I'm bad at catching things, and I'm guessing engineers need good math skills so I'd probably be bad at that to.

Ashtagon

2011-06-02, 03:10 PM

Should people be allowed to 'transit' from one sex to another before they're 18?

I think it should be compulsory.

blackfox

2011-06-02, 04:58 PM

golentan

2011-06-02, 04:59 PM

Pretty out. I'll openly discuss finding guys attractive with strangers.

WarKitty

2011-06-02, 05:01 PM

It just occured to me that I'm one of only a few openly queer people I know. Not one of a few queer people overall--there's plenty of people that I know that would/do readily talk to their friends about their orientation, but there's very few people who would tell some some random person on the street, and/or very few people who 'everyone knows,' correctly, is queer. Which is kind of weird for me, since I like to think that living where I do means that there won't be social intolerance. So for the actual question: For those of your who are closeted, is it mostly social pressure or some other thing that keeps you from coming out? And for those of you who are not closeted, how 'out' are you?

Sort of depends on the area. A lot of times I've found though it's just too much work to correct/inform people. If I'm not in a relationship with a girl, my orientation doesn't tend to come up a lot. So people just go on assuming I'm straight, because it never comes up.

That said...yeah social pressure has a lot to do with it. I think I'd be more comfortable if I was older, but right now I just don't want to be tarred with the "party girl" brush.

Qaera

2011-06-02, 05:11 PM

Underage + Bible Belt + not heteronormative = Narnia

WarKitty

2011-06-02, 07:52 PM

Elaboration now that I have some more time:

I've been thinking about how open I want to be a lot lately, actually. And it's sort of coming down to this weird mix of gender, orientation, and age. Honestly...objectification is a lot more of an issue to me than outright harassment. Mainly because I don't know how to deal with it. And it's worse because of my age, a lot of people seem to assume young women put on shows of being lesbians in order to attract men. Plus the whole bisexual=slut thing...

I don't know. It's hard enough being taken seriously when you're often the only woman in the room. And it's hard to tell sometimes - I mean, I believe sexuality is normal and healthy, but at the same time I think the way a lot of men I know relate to sexuality isn't something I want to be on the other end of. And it's just weird and complicated and doesn't make any sense to me.

rayne_dragon

2011-06-02, 08:01 PM

It just occured to me that I'm one of only a few openly queer people I know. Not one of a few queer people overall--there's plenty of people that I know that would/do readily talk to their friends about their orientation, but there's very few people who would tell some some random person on the street, and/or very few people who 'everyone knows,' correctly, is queer. Which is kind of weird for me, since I like to think that living where I do means that there won't be social intolerance. So for the actual question: For those of your who are closeted, is it mostly social pressure or some other thing that keeps you from coming out? And for those of you who are not closeted, how 'out' are you?

I'm not very open. I'm not in the closet or anything, it's just I don't see any need to make much of a point of my orientation to everyone and their sister. It's mostly just an issue of personal boundaries and that I tend to be more reclusive with the average person than open. Usually people I discuss the issue with are people who are potential partners (although some exceptions exist).

Coidzor

2011-06-03, 12:53 AM

I don't know. It's hard enough being taken seriously when you're often the only woman in the room. And it's hard to tell sometimes - I mean, I believe sexuality is normal and healthy, but at the same time I think the way a lot of men I know relate to sexuality isn't something I want to be on the other end of. And it's just weird and complicated and doesn't make any sense to me.

As history and the lies we like to perpetuate show, sexuality is something we like to mess up in any and all ways possible. Just because coming to terms with our sexuality or absence thereof is something that's necessary to health as a person, doesn't mean everyone's going to have a healthy handle on their sexuality or sexuality in general or understand it. And certainly not everyone is healthy... indeed, health does sometimes seem to be in the distinct minority.

The way a lot of the people I know relate to sexuality isn't something I want to be on the other end of or ever see even hinted at by a partner or prospective partner. In both males and females I've found deep-seated and wrong-headed notions in addition to the usual unhealthy ones and the always fun coin-toss of whether a given person knows how to perform.

So it's a thoroughly depressing topic that is slowly, in certain areas moving away from being thoroughly depressing to merely depressing and someday, after our bones have long since turned into a form unrecognizable as having ever been in the form they are in now, might even stop being depressing on the whole.

I think it should be compulsory.

Well, that's a pretty novel way to keep the population from expanding.

742

2011-06-03, 01:27 AM

why is it that i find gay and lesbian couples cuter than straight couples of equally adorable component parts?

also:

worked fine for me
so your normal? traitor.

Asta Kask

2011-06-03, 03:43 AM

so your normal? traitor.

No. I'm normal. Somewhat.

Golentan is just happy with what hän* is.

*Finnish, 3rd person singular, he or she

Asta Kask

2011-06-03, 06:35 AM

Serpentine

2011-06-03, 06:41 AM

DeadManSleeping

2011-06-03, 07:08 AM

And in Germany, people are 'treating' homosexuals with homeopathy.

"The less straight sex you have, the straighter you'll be!"
"Really?"
"Well, it has to be diluted."
"In what?"
"Other sex, of course."
"Doesn't that just leave lots of gay sex?"
"Basically"
"So, to stop being gay, I have to only do sexual activities with people of my own sex?"
"As much as possible, yes"

Somehow this seems like a good thing to me. :smalltongue:

Dubhghall

2011-06-03, 07:29 AM

I've been coming to terms with my sexuality for the past almost five years and to be honest I'm still a little unsure and unsteady about it all. While I'm attracted to men physically I've never felt as strong an emotional bond as I have with some women. I'm sure enough that I want to try dating guys though to see if those emotions are there. I've never been good with dating to begin with but that's another story.
Anyway, I'm wanting to "come out" before I do, so I don't have to have it as some secret hanging over me with my family. I'm just not sure the best way to go about it. Should I write a letter? skype? What do you say? Should I wait for when I can tell them in person in a couple of months?
I quess I'm just looking for advice and assurance before I do this. It scares me more than a bit.

Asta Kask

2011-06-03, 07:35 AM

...
Someone on Triple J today said that "sometimes something is just so ridiculously stupid, that even though it should be really offensive, it's so dumb that it's not".
I think this comes under that.

The UCP website includes a testimonial from a southern German gay man who writes that he had been happy to find that the organization believed "that changing homosexual tendencies was possible" because finding a therapist to undertake such a task had been difficult. "Unfortunately the widespread opinion among psychotherapists is that homosexuality is inherent and unalterable," he writes.

I've been coming to terms with my sexuality for the past almost five years and to be honest I'm still a little unsure and unsteady about it all. While I'm attracted to men physically I've never felt as strong an emotional bond as I have with some women. I'm sure enough that I want to try dating guys though to see if those emotions are there. I've never been good with dating to begin with but that's another story.
Anyway, I'm wanting to "come out" before I do, so I don't have to have it as some secret hanging over me with my family. I'm just not sure the best way to go about it. Should I write a letter? skype? What do you say? Should I wait for when I can tell them in person in a couple of months?
I quess I'm just looking for advice and assurance before I do this. It scares me more than a bit.

I would like to be told in person. This is important, it deserves face-to-face contact. Just like you shouldn't dump someone over SMS. But that's just me.

Partysan

2011-06-03, 07:36 AM

And in Germany, people are 'treating' homosexuals with homeopathy.

*headdesk*

a) there's no need for a 'treatment'

*headdesk*

b) there's no proof that a 'treatment' exists

*headdesk*

c) homeopathy doesn't work

Wha... Bu- WHAT? Can I get a sauce on that? Citation needed? I am in Germany and I have never heard of such a sick thing as healing something that is healthy with a cure that doesn't cure.

"The less straight sex you have, the straighter you'll be!"
"Really?"
"Well, it has to be diluted."
"In what?"
"Other sex, of course."
"Doesn't that just leave lots of gay sex?"
"Basically"
"So, to stop being gay, I have to only do sexual activities with people of my own sex?"
"As much as possible, yes"

Somehow this seems like a good thing to me. :smalltongue:

Made my day, that's hilarious and witty.

Asta Kask

2011-06-03, 07:38 AM

Wha... Bu- WHAT? Can I get a sauce on that? Citation needed? I am in Germany and I have never heard of such a sick thing as healing something that is healthy with a cure that doesn't cure.

Der spiegel has the story. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,766281,00.html)

Partysan

2011-06-03, 07:47 AM

Der spiegel has the story. (http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,766281,00.html)

Indeed it has. *shudder* But oh well, it does speak for Germany that here this is a side note most people didn't hear of and if they do don't take it seriously. The religious right just doesn't have the same kind of voice here. Bad enough that it still has one.

Asta Kask

2011-06-03, 07:50 AM

Although this is tip-teoing very close to the edge of what the Pure and Virtuous Lady will allow, I think. So let's quietly drop it.

Serpentine

2011-06-03, 08:50 AM

An acceptable response to a coming-out. Is this one?
http://crazythingsparentssay.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/funny-parent-quotes-twistedgretchens-grandma-is-more-tolerant-than-expected.jpg

Ashen Lilies

2011-06-03, 09:04 AM

Best. Grandma. Ever.

WarKitty

2011-06-03, 11:28 AM

As history and the lies we like to perpetuate show, sexuality is something we like to mess up in any and all ways possible. Just because coming to terms with our sexuality or absence thereof is something that's necessary to health as a person, doesn't mean everyone's going to have a healthy handle on their sexuality or sexuality in general or understand it. And certainly not everyone is healthy... indeed, health does sometimes seem to be in the distinct minority.

The way a lot of the people I know relate to sexuality isn't something I want to be on the other end of or ever see even hinted at by a partner or prospective partner. In both males and females I've found deep-seated and wrong-headed notions in addition to the usual unhealthy ones and the always fun coin-toss of whether a given person knows how to perform.

So it's a thoroughly depressing topic that is slowly, in certain areas moving away from being thoroughly depressing to merely depressing and someday, after our bones have long since turned into a form unrecognizable as having ever been in the form they are in now, might even stop being depressing on the whole.

Cheerful aren't you? *randomly glomps*

It's as much the difficulty of articulating what exactly one objects to. It's sort of like the attitudinal version of the backhanded compliment - it leaves one with the feeling that one ought to be flattered that one is seen as sexually desirable, and yet there's a certain condescension that makes it hard to explain to other parties exactly why one is offended.

Ashtagon

2011-06-03, 11:41 AM

Elentari

2011-06-03, 06:36 PM

An acceptable response to a coming-out. Is this one?
http://crazythingsparentssay.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/funny-parent-quotes-twistedgretchens-grandma-is-more-tolerant-than-expected.jpg

*sighs* I wish my grandma would be that understanding. As it is, I'm terrified to come out to my grandparents. Extremely Catholic+Prejudice =/= Acceptance....

On the other hand, however, I came out to my parents. And they're ok with it.

You may go about your regularly scheduled thread biz now...

Lord Raziere

2011-06-03, 07:08 PM

Man you guys are brave, I'm still frightened over coming out to you guys that I sometimes think I want to be a girl.

Lix Lorn

2011-06-03, 07:14 PM

Man you guys are brave, I'm still frightened over coming out to you guys that I sometimes think I want to be a girl.
Well... congrats on telling us? And we're here for you?

rayne_dragon

2011-06-03, 07:44 PM

Man you guys are brave, I'm still frightened over coming out to you guys that I sometimes think I want to be a girl.

You shouldn't be frightened - we will only burn you as a witch if you want us to. :smallwink:

An acceptable response to a coming-out. Is this one?
http://crazythingsparentssay.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/funny-parent-quotes-twistedgretchens-grandma-is-more-tolerant-than-expected.jpg

That's an awesome response.

And in Germany, people are 'treating' homosexuals with homeopathy.

*headdesk*

a) there's no need for a 'treatment'

*headdesk*

b) there's no proof that a 'treatment' exists

*headdesk*

c) homeopathy doesn't work

It happens here in North America a fair bit, although not usually with homeopathy. Also, I question the veracity of your point c - it seems to work for a lot of people, even if it is only working on the placebo effect.

why is it that i find gay and lesbian couples cuter than straight couples of equally adorable component parts?

Novelty, I would suppect.

golentan

2011-06-03, 08:10 PM

Actually, I burn people as witches if they sacrifice other people's life force for personal power, and will not if I'm asked too otherwise. But apart from that I agree.

And yeah. Awesome grandma is awesome. /tautology

Serpentine

2011-06-04, 02:44 AM

Also, I question the veracity of your point c - it seems to work for a lot of people, even if it is only working on the placebo effect.Then it's not working - the placebo effect is :smallwink:

Skeppio

2011-06-04, 03:45 AM

golentan

2011-06-04, 10:24 AM

Then it's not working - the placebo effect is :smallwink:

On the other hand, as long as the providers don't expect anything more than the placebo and screen for negative effects, is it really so bad to use the placebo effect to improve the general well being level?

If my friends get sick less often even just because they believe they will, I personally count that as a win.

On the other hand, if my friends start being sexually repressed because of the placebo effect, I count that as a loss. Generally speaking, my friends won't mack with me anyway, but still. So yeah. Context.

Asta Kask

2011-06-04, 10:35 AM

What's the harm in homeopathy?

Let's see. (http://whatstheharm.net/homeopathy.html)

Yes, actual medicine has side effects, and they can be lethal. But at least they help.

ETA: There's also the question of ethics. Homeopaths like to accuse real doctors of being shills for Big Pharma, but Homeopathy is a multi-billion dollar industry. Is it ethical to charge premium prices for water and false hope?

golentan

2011-06-04, 10:44 AM

I'm not saying that you should exclude actual medicine. But I don't see the harm of placebo effects if there are no intrinsic side effects as long as people aren't idiots and insist on disregarding conventional medical advice and treatment options. The fact that humanity routinely fails to pass the "not an idiot" test is not the issue at stake.

Asta Kask

2011-06-04, 10:54 AM

golentan

2011-06-04, 12:11 PM

Again, you seem to be tilting at a point I'm not making. I don't think doctors should prescribe it, and I don't think it should replace actual medicine.I don't care for homeopathy any more than sugar pills or warm milk or any other placebo/home remedy/stand in, in fact I like it a good bit less (mmm... sugar). But if it helps someone feel better, I'm all for it. Because if you think you feel better, by definition you do. There is a difference between feeling better and getting better, which is where medical science and professionals come in. But feeling better is good too, and can help somewhat with prognosis. So yeah, let people who want their placebo in the form of homeopathic things buy them over the counter. And let other people take their vitamin c pills when they feel a cold coming on. And let me have my clove and honey tea. Because it doesn't actually hurt things unless the person is an idiot, and it can help even if just a little.

And idiots will always find a way to hurt themselves. As long as you keep trying to educate the public that, hey, over here we have antibiotics and you should take those if you're seriously ill when your doctor says, and you take down people who commit outright fraud peddling snake oil, why does any of the rest matter?

Lissou

2011-06-04, 12:26 PM

I think the problem is when:

- they charge so much when the person might as well drink water, if it's the placebo effect. I understand charging at all because that's part of making the person believe it's legitimate, but on the other hand setting too high a price becomes blatant swindling IMO

- people might not seek proper treatment for more serious conditions that the placebo effect won't cover. Even some not-so-serious conditions might end up getting worse

Otherwise, yeah, it's "fine". It's taking advantage of people's credulity if it's only the placebo effect, but I'm for people getting better. But these two points make it harder to justify it.

Asta Kask

2011-06-04, 12:36 PM

It leads to homeopaths - and I can't think of a single correct idea about diseases or the human body that's promoted by homeopaths - diagnosing and treating illness. They're not qualified. And they can't be taught and still remain homeopaths.

Lissou

2011-06-04, 12:54 PM

Plus, the placebo effect works whatever you're taking. If you're already taking an actual medicine, it makes it work even better. So it's not like you need to take stuff that doesn't otherwise work to take advantage of the placebo effect.

Asta Kask

2011-06-04, 12:57 PM

Thank you Lissou. I knew I was forgetting stuff. Getting old and grey.

Taking the 'e' out of homeopathy (http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/06/taking_the_e_out_of_homeopathy.php#more)

Coidzor

2011-06-04, 02:06 PM

The fact that humanity routinely fails to pass the "not an idiot" test is not the issue at stake.

It's a fact that is intrinsic and pertinent to this discussion and all others that involve such accusations of predation and deleterious effects upon society resulting from a practice because of it encouraging people to remain ignorant in a certain way that profits said promoters or practitioners of the practice in question.

KenderWizard

2011-06-04, 05:57 PM

It costs money. In fact, it can cost a lot of money. And it's nothing but water. And it depends on the patient not knowing this for optimal 'effect'. In other words, the physician must either be deluded himself and/or try to delude his patient. This is gravely unethical.

Now, there has been cases when placebo has been prescribed. During my training I heard of a woman who slept like a babe on brown M&Ms (rather, on the Swedish equivalent). But it has been banned because it's not ethical.

If you are going to have someone prescribe placebo (and I recommend against it), then it should be real doctors. Homeopaths don't even accept the germ theory of disease! They believe in a life force that can be deranged by miasmas. Their thinking is stuck in time when Hahnemann died - in 1843.

I would not let a doctor from 1843 practise in a modern hospital even if he was only prescribing homeopathy. How would he know what was an infectious disease and what was not? How would he recognize whether a tumor required immediate treatment or could wait a week for the pathologist'' report? He can't. Homeopaths are a danger to the patients.

I agree. I think qualified real doctors should be allowed to use the placebo effect if, in their best judgement, it may help (eg, give pain relief) and if they are completely certain it won't do any harm (eg, they ensure the patient understands that it's an addition to, not a replacement of, their actual real causes-helpful-biochemical-changes medicine). They can explain it without lying by saying something like "This is a treatment that can relieve pain, with no noted side-effects. It doesn't work for everyone, but I think it wouldn't hurt to try it in your case." And they don't charge them for anything more than whatever sugar pills or saline solution or whatever it is costs.

Anyway, in other news, the Dublin LGBTQ (as it is called) festival is coming up and I'm really excited! I've never been to a Pride parade before! Anyone got any good stories?