Removing Precise Shot? [3.5/PF]

[blackmage]

I am wondering, what is the purpose of the Precise Shot feat? Yes, it gets rid of the firing-into-melee penalty, but why does this penalty exist in the first place? Realism? I grant that, but to me it feels like a feat tax. Every archery-related character MUST take this feat, regardless of what they want to do. The -4 penalty is the same as being nonproficient, essentially the same as every ranged character needing to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency(ranged weapons).

So, I feel like house-ruling this feat/rule as not existing. There is no penalty for firing into melee, the Precise Shot feat disappears, any feats or abilities that have it as a prerequisite have it removed from their prereq list. I feel like this would make feat-intensive archery characters much easier to pull off, and would make 'dipping' into archery more appealing to various characters. Is this a good idea? Bad idea? Who cares? What does the playground think?

[Shades of Gray]

I am wondering, what is the purpose of the Point-Blank Shot feat? Yes, it gives you a bonus when firing at close range, but why doesn't this exist in the first place? To me it feels like a feat tax. Every archery-related character MUST take this feat, regardless of what they want to do.

[Merk]

I think this makes sense. I would probably do the same thing.

[NineThePuma]

I'd replace Point Blank Shot before I remove Precise.

Or just roll them in together.

[Welknair]

... essentially the same as every ranged character needing to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency(ranged weapons).


Wait, what? Why do they need to take that? :smallconfused:

[NineThePuma]

He means that Precise Shot -is- "EWP(Ranged Weapons)

[ericgrau]

I wouldn't bother with precise shot if my party only had 1 melee in it, at least not for a long while. The whole archery tree has options that are nice for archers to take, but you don't necessarily take them all and you might take them in a certain order forcing decisions at lower levels. Point blank shot is one of the ways that archers get a higher attack bonus than melee to help them keep up on damage. And if everybody got it for free then the melee might do as well or almost as well at archery as someone who was supposed to be good at archery. If anything rapid shot might bug me because it's almost universally a good choice for any archer. But some sniper or mobile builds might not take it and eh, oh well even if everyone does. It's yet another way to keep up with or even stay ahead of melee (short of ubercharger cheese).

People underestimate the impact of all those full attacks, attack bonuses, and extra attacks have on archery. At low levels you keep up via double attacks and later so much of your damage comes from your magic weapon the greater number of hits are still really nice. Not to mention the huge tactical advantage.

If you do give away the basic archery feats for free then you need to add new options to fill the gaps. Probably things for trick shots over more stats because otherwise the damage can get surprisingly crazy in gaming groups that aren't ready for it.

[Tacitus]

The most common fixes I see for the feat tax are rolling them into one or removing Point Blank Shot from the prerequisites of everything. One of my favorite fixes rolls the two feats into a single feat and lets it scale according to BAB.

[Cipher Stars]

Have you ever tried to shoot at something with something you don't want to hit actively moving around each other? One could move in your path at any moment, Your arrow/bullet could stray, You could twitch wrong sending it ever so off and into your buddies guts.

Precise Shot is fine. Its point blank shot that gets me. :/ Though I can kinda see it with a bow...

[Morph Bark]

why doesn't this exist in the first place?

It kinda already does, in a way, as you get penalties for firing at higher ranges.


Rolling the two into one wouldn't be a problem though.

[blackmage]

Hmm, hadn't thought of removing PBS as a prereq from other feats, but that'd be nice too. PBS is sort of a feat tax, but I'm more okay with it because it actually gives you a bonus instead of removing a crippling penalty in a common situation. Thank you for input all, looks like several ways to approach this.

[Forged Fury]

The most common fixes I see for the feat tax are rolling them into one or removing Point Blank Shot from the prerequisites of everything. One of my favorite fixes rolls the two feats into a single feat and lets it scale according to BAB.
You should roll Improved Precise Shot in there too, possibly providing the benefits at a certain BAB. Considering that there is a good chance the archer is shooting from behind his ally in the melee, you're also having to overcome the cover your ally is providing to the enemy (+4 AC).

Honestly, at low levels, I don't understand how any ranged characters successfully hit anything once melee is joined. It's a net -8 to attack without Precise Shot!

[blackmage]

/looks at SRD

Oh...my...gosh...that's really how its supposed to work? Wow. I'm so glad my group apparently doesn't know about that rule. Yeah, my level 1 ranger in a friend's campaign (WITH precise shot) should not have hit anything last session apparently. Now I dunno what to think.

[Seerow]

My current DM has it so the penalty for firing into melee is only -2 instead of -4, and ignores cover from allies. Personally I'd just get rid of both of the precise shot feats and make it inherent to anyone who can use a bow.

[Forged Fury]

/looks at SRD

Oh...my...gosh...that's really how its supposed to work? Wow.
Yup, it also applies to ranged touch spells and reach weapon weilders attacking from behind the frontline. (Which, incidentally, has the additional effect of messing up a number of melee lockdown builds since you can't initiaite an AoO against someone with cover relative to you).

At the same time, the rule does help to shield your squishy characters in the rear. It cuts both ways.

Edit: In prior versions, you could shoot your allies in combat. (You still can if they're in a grapple).

[Paintomancer]

You should roll Improved Precise Shot in there too, possibly providing the benefits at a certain BAB. Considering that there is a good chance the archer is shooting from behind his ally in the melee, you're also having to overcome the cover your ally is providing to the enemy (+4 AC).

Honestly, at low levels, I don't understand how any ranged characters successfully hit anything once melee is joined. It's a net -8 to attack without Precise Shot!

I always understood the -4 penalty when firing into a melee as a result of the cover your allies granted the target. How about perking precise shot such that you can (also) ignore up to half-cover of the target. This would be ultra-powerful and possibly breaking a few PrC abilities, but it would be

1) a feat worth taking for an archer
2) what somebody not familiar with the rules would understand a precise shot was capable of

You could adjust it. Maybe just ignoring cover in the point blank shot range? I really don't know.

[OverdrivePrime]

Hmm. Yeah, I like the idea of having a penalty for firing into melee, but the way it currently is severely gimps archery characters and, ugh. the feat tax is pretty terrible.

Keep in mind that firing into melee affects ranged touch spells too.

How about this:
Rule that you can ignore the penalty for firing into melee as a move action.

Point Blank Shot becomes:

Ranged Fighting[General]
Benefit
You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet and you can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard -4 penalty on your attack roll.

Special
A fighter may select Ranged Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats. This replaces Point Blank Shot as the prerequisite for the archery tree.

[blackmage]

Maybe this...not totally sure I like it. This issue is significantly more complicated than I realized. (Which is why I asked the playground. Thanks all!)

Point Blank Shot[General]
Benefit
You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet. When firing at a target within 30 feet, you may ignore one creature when determining whether your target has soft cover from your attacks.

Special
A fighter may select Ranged Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats. This replaces Point Blank Shot as the prerequisite for the archery tree.