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Destrude
2011-05-25, 11:57 PM
Hey, long time reader, first time poster, all that jazz. Pretend there's some more newbie blather up here, saves me the time. :smallamused:

Anyway, so I recently came across this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46752) and it really lit a fire under the creative centers of my brain. I've been tinkering with a few ideas for the last couple of weeks, but I'm hitting the point where outside ideas and review would be very helpful. My best material is usually a result of riffing off of someone else's comments.

So I figure I'll post some bits and parts and ideas, and hopefully make some progress with your help. All comments welcome, all ideas are good until they're proven otherwise. Since I use Pathfinder RPG as my default fantasy ruleset, all my references to feats, skills, spells, and abilities are from that unless otherwise specified.

Oh, and if anyone hears from SilverClawShift, let 'em know this is here please. I've tried PMing them, but no response so far.

Edit: Got the green light, no need to pester them any longer. :smallsmile:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok, so the basic concept of the Dustlands, for those who haven't read the link, is that the world has ended. Gods and Devils had their fight, moved on, put the chairs up and turned off the lights. But life survived, here and there, clinging to rocks and dark places.

Give it a little time, and now you've got new civilizations spreading out into a radically changed landscape, blasted and ruined from the nightmarish energies that scourged it during the Apocalypse. Old western style mixed with D&D fantasy, two great tastes that will crush your dreams and grind your hopes to dust in the struggle for survival. :smallamused:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gonna jump right into something with some meat on it currently, the Ghostwalker. Have a whole set of classes and whatnot planned, in varying stages of completion, but this one is fun and (hopefully) gives off the flavor I'm trying to evoke. (And yes, I know the Ghostwalker is from the old 3.0 Sword and Fist. And it sucked. This setting is perfect for it, and hopefully this version is much more playable.)

Aiming for Tier 3-ish with pretty much all of these classes, though I imagine that will be much harder than it sounds. Oh, and there won't be any full casters per se, more modified casting and some very restricted spell lists, so factor that into balance concerns please. I'll give some examples of what I mean in a later post, when they're translated from random notes into readable information.

Personal Notes in GREEN.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Ghostwalker


Class Skills
Bluff(Cha), Climb(Str), Diplomacy(Cha), Handle Animal(Cha), Intimidate(Cha), Knowledge(local)(Int), Knowledge(nature), Perception(Wis), Ride(Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), Survival(Wis)
Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

Hit Dice: d10

Ghostwalker
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2|Painful Reckoning, Vengeful Vigor (Lesser), Lesser Power

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Resolute Aura, Withstand Anything (Lesser)

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3| Lesser Power

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4|

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Lesser Power

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Lesser Power

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Vengeful Vigor (Regular)

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Withstand Anything (Regular), Regular Power

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+7|

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Regular Power

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+8|Regular Power

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Withstand Anything (Greater)

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Regular Power

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+10|

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Greater Power

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Greater Power

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Unknown Capstone Ability [/table]


Weapon Proficiencies: Proficient in Simple and Martial weapons. Proficient in Light, Medium, and Heavy armor, and Shields (including Tower Shields).


Painful Reckoning: +1 to attack and damage per 2 Ghostwalker Levels against any target whom has dealt damage to the character or affected him with a spell for a number of rounds equal to his Ghostwalker level.

I like the Weapon Training ability of the PF Fighter, but it feels too bland IMHO. Also too weak. :smallsmile: This is a bit heftier, and much more flavorful.

Resolute Aura: Gain +1 AC per 2 Ghostwalker Levels and + 1 to Saves per 4 Ghostwalker Levels against any foe who deals more than (2 x Ghostwalker Level) damage to the Ghostwalker in one round of combat. The bonuses apply immediately upon hitting the required total, and count both mundane and magical damage.

Also, I don't know if this is the case normally, but the bonus to saves should apply to saves vs. massive damage. #1 killer of a guy with piles of HP.

Vengeful Vigor, Lesser: You gain 2 temporary HP per Ghostwalker Level if you would drop in to negative HP totals, immediately prior to taking the damage. These HP last for 1 minute, and are only usable once per hour.

Stayin' alive, stayin' alive. :smallsmile:

Withstand Anything, Lesser*: Upon being dealt HP damage in combat, you may make a Fortitude Save (DC = 10 + the damage taken) to convert 1/2 of it into non-lethal damage. Usable once every (10 - Con Modifier) Rounds, minimum 2.

Non-lethal still knocks you out if it equals your current HP total, AFAIK, so this mostly makes it easier to heal. Also, since healing magic is somewhat limited in my vision of the setting, being knocked out is better for you than being diced to ribbons.

Vengeful Vigor, Regular*: You gain +5 temporary HP per Ghostwalker Level plus your Wisdom Modifier instead of the previous amount. Otherwise acts as Lesser version.

Seems like a lot, though at 20th Lvl with a Con Mod of +5, you're averaging 224 normal HP, and this is only 100 temp HP for 1 min. Reasonable?

Withstand Anything, Regular*: As the Lesser version, but changes all of the damage from that attack to non-lethal and the DC = 5 + the damage taken.

Might be some problems with scaling on this chain. I ran a few numbers but haven't field-tested it yet.

Withstand Anything, Greater*: As the Lesser version, but you only take the non-lethal half of the damage, and the DC = 1/2 the damage dealt by the triggering attack.

Yeah, really not sure about the numbers on this one. Assuming standard Bestiary encounters for ECL 16-20, is this any good?


Lesser Power: (I really have to come up with a better name for these things.) Powers marked with a * may only be used immediately upon being struck for damage in combat. Choose one from the following list:

Evasive, Lesser*: You may teleport as the spell Dimension Door up to 1 foot per point of damage done to you in the triggering attack, rounded up to the nearest 5 foot increment, as an Immediate Action.

Both for getting into, and out of, messy combats. Keep up with baddies that abuse Spring/Flyby Attack, duck under long reach by taking one on the chin, or escape the same.

Intimidating Toughness: By dealing at least 1 point of damage per Ghostwalker Level to yourself, you may make an Intimidate Check with a Competence Bonus equal to your Ghostwalker Level.

*wince* REALLY need to get a better name for this one. Classic tough-guy drifter stuff. Cut your hand and smear the blood on your face, all "Tell me where she is or I do it to you next" kind of flavor. Too weak for the cost, though?

No Fear(Ex): Some Ghostwalkers are just too hardboiled (or bullheaded) to be afraid when they should be. Watching a man spit in the face of a dragon can be strangely inspiring, and so the Ghostwalker's teammates gain some measure of his strength of will. Upon making a Will Saving throw against a Fear effect, the Ghostwalker may take a -2 to the save. If he succeeds, he may grant a +4 Morale bonus on Will Saves to a number of people equal to his Wisdom Mod for 1 round per Ghostwalker Level.
Not sure if I'm wording this right, seems clunky. Anyone know the official wording rules for abilities?

Shadow Cloak: You gain 20% concealment for 1 round + 1 per 5 Ghostwalker Levels. As long as this protection is active, you may extend the duration by 1 round every time you are struck and the attack is not negated by the miss chance. Move action to activate.

Not 100% sure about this one, power-wise. Too good? Too bad? I had the idea but I don't know where to place it.

Skulltap(Ex): Experience has taught the Ghostwalker that a little unnecessary roughness can be helpful. By taking a Standard Action to attack, the Ghostwalker can cause an affect similar to the spell Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/touch-of-idiocy) in addition to his normal damage. This effect lasts for 10 minutes, and stacks with itself, but still cannot drop a score below 1.


Regular Powers: Powers marked with a * may only be used immediately upon being struck for damage in combat. Choose one from the following list:

I'm thinking of having any lesser versions of powers that the player has chosen automatically upgrade to their advanced versions as you gain access to them, to get rid of redundancy in power selection. Nothing more boring than learning "Greater Healing #10" if I already know the first 9.

EDIT: Not a lot of lesser/greater versions of powers anymore, so this may become moot.

Anonymity: A Ghostwalker can draw on the aura of mystery and aloofness that surrounds him, enforcing its effect on those who would try to uncover his secrets. He gains SR = 10 + his Ghostwalker Level against any Scrying or Divination effect targeted on him or including him in it's area. If the spell fails to penetrate his SR, it shows nothing but a barren landscape filled with mists and a single shadow.
Feeling like this might be a core ability instead, not sure though.

Convincing Argument: As a Standard Action, you may make a single attack (melee or ranged, though they must be within 60 feet of you for ranged attacks). Instead of actually dealing damage, you intentionally miss by the barest fraction, stunning your target into obedience for a while. They are affected as by the spell Suggestion (DC = 10 + your BAB + 1 for every 10 points of damage you would have done) with a CL equal to your Ghostwalker Level. This may affect creatures normally immune to Mind-Affecting Effects, but not anything without an Intelligence Score. The Suggestion lasts for 3 + your Wisdom Modifier in minutes.

Another western toughguy classic: firing off a gun right next to your head, or slamming down a knife between your fingers, followed by a terse command. Hopefully will give the Ghostwalker some options in town, although the consequences of swinging/firing a weapon in town can vary.

Feign Death*: If you are struck in combat for more than 3x your Ghostwalker Level, you may drop to the ground and appear dead as a free action. If you are dying, you may stabilize automatically. Any ongoing poisons or bleed damage are paused for the duration of this effect. A Perception check (DC = 10 + 1/2 Class Level + Wisdom Modifier) will reveal that you are still living. This effect lasts up to 1 minute per Ghostwalker Level, and may be ended as a Swift Action.

A potentially useful trick in combat, or if you get caught scouting. Also nice if you get poisoned by assassins, or just feel like scaring your teammates. :smallsmile: Not really sure if anyone will take it though, is it interesting enough?

Grim Interrogator(Su): An unnerving air surrounds many Ghostwalkers, causing palms to sweat, hands to tremble, and lies to falter. As a Full-Round Action, the Ghostwalker may create an effect similar to the spell Zone of Truth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/z/zone-of-truth), with a Caster Level equal to his Ghostwalker Level and a DC of 10 + 1/2 Ghostwalker Level + Wis Mod. This ability is usable a number of times per day equal to his Wis Mod.
I like this one, not sure why I didn't think of it before.

Visage of Death*: Upon using Vengeful Vigor, you may make an Intimidate Check as a Free Action against all opponents within 100 feet with a competence bonus equal to your Wisdom Modifier + 1 per Ghostwalker Level. You appear horrifyingly wounded and half dead for the duration of Vengeful Vigor. Obviously, this requires you to have Vengeful Vigor to select it (any version).

Dead Man Walkin'!

Major Powers: Powers marked with a * may only be used immediately upon being struck for damage in combat. Choose one from the following list:

Evasive, Greater*: You may become ethereal, as per the spell Ethereal Jaunt, for up to 1 round for every 10 points of damage taken from the triggering attack. It takes an Immediate Action to change between ethereal and normal states, and is usable 1 per hour.

Haven't come up with a "Regular" version of Evasive yet, and I'm going to change the name anyway, but this seemed like the next logical step after teleporting. Might make it so this and the Lesser version are both available as options, instead of one replacing the other.

Resolute Vengance*: Upon using Vengeful Vigor, you may gain DR 10/- for the same duration. This applies only to foes affected by your Resolute Aura. Obviously, requires you to have Vengeful Vigor.

DR 10/- against some people some of the time. Worth it? Not sure myself. Might make it against everyone instead of being restricted by Resolute Aura.



Whew, that was a lot of typing. Ok, so comments? Obviously I'm short on Powers of all tiers, and I'm thinking of adding in some bonus Combat feats in there somewhere. More social options would be good as well, nobody works alone in the Dustlands after all. :smallamused:

A big preemptive "Thank You" to anyone who takes the time to help me on this project, which promises to be massive. You guys make it worth the effort.

Edit: Updated Resolute Aura and Intimidating Toughness.

Haldir
2011-05-26, 04:18 AM
First thing I noticed is that you've given the class no capstone ability. Because you've based all of the effects in the class on character level rather than Ghostwalker Level, there will never be a reason to take all 20 levels of the class.

Intimidating Toughness is not a very good option. The bonus is static, but the ability actually gets more costly to you as you gain more experience, this is counter intuitive.

Feign Death also seems unintuitive to me. Why the arbitrary limiter on how long someone can pretend to be a corpse? Each time your level increases, you slightly decrease the number of opportunities you have to use the ability.

The same issue comes up with Resolute Aura.

Destrude
2011-05-26, 08:20 AM
First thing I noticed is that you've given the class no capstone ability. Because you've based all of the effects in the class on character level rather than Ghostwalker Level, there will never be a reason to take all 20 levels of the class.

Intimidating Toughness is not a very good option. The bonus is static, but the ability actually gets more costly to you as you gain more experience, this is counter intuitive.

Feign Death also seems unintuitive to me. Why the arbitrary limiter on how long someone can pretend to be a corpse? Each time your level increases, you slightly decrease the number of opportunities you have to use the ability.

The same issue comes up with Resolute Aura.

The class is very much not done yet; I haven't thought of a good capstone but I'm always open to suggestions.

Good point about Intimidating Toughness. I want to avoid it becoming an irrelevant cost though, or there's no good reason not to use it every time. Maybe I should dial up the bonus instead? Perhaps more like +Class Level to Intimidate?

As for Feign Death's limit, I figure even the most well trained sniper can only lie perfectly still in ambush for just so long before he cramps up (IRL), and since it pauses poisons and bleed letting it last too long opens it up to silliness. "Oh, I'm poisoned? Ok, let me just fall over and lie there until someone sorts out what to do about it."

Resolute Aura gives a pretty decent bonus (I think), and I didn't want it applying to every mook who comes along and takes a shot at the PCs. I wanted it to represent the GW getting serious about fighting someone who is strong enough to really hurt him. Do you think the scaling is off, or should it be a static target of some sort?

Also, the effects should be based off of Ghostwalker Level, not Character Level. The dangers of using the Find/Replace option when writing up your draft. :smallsmile:

Edit: Changed relevant uses of Class Level to Ghostwalker Level. Hope that clears it up a bit.

Destrude
2011-06-01, 10:34 PM
Made a few updates, mostly to change Vengeful Vigor and Withstand Anything to be standard class features.

Moving them means I need to figure even more options for the Powers pool, or else scrap that entirely and make them all standard features. Trying to avoid that though, I want this class to be variable wherever possible.

Thoughts?

Kallisti
2011-06-02, 04:22 PM
SilverClawShift's story implied pretty strongly that there were already Dustlands rules somewhere. Anyone know where to find those?

Mayhem
2011-06-02, 05:13 PM
Hey you tidied it up and gave it a snazzy new table. Looks pretty solid. Also thank you for showing me dustlands.:smallsmile:

I visage of death should only apply to foes that can see you, but other wise solid. You could probably push the second lesser power to level 4, since you get a feat at level 3 but nothing level 4.

Kallisti, the rules are with her DM. She said they change all the time and that they haven't finalised them, so sadly I don't think there are any around.

Destrude
2011-06-03, 12:48 PM
Ok, changed Intimidating Toughness to give a bonus = Ghostwalker Level, to make it keep up a little better with the increasing cost. Too much, not enough, just right?

Also, dropped the required damage for Resolute Aura down to 2x Ghostwalker level, to make it a little easier to use at high levels. HP at Lvl 10 averages out to 120 (with a +5 Con), and requires 20 points or more.

At Lvl 20 you're averaging 224 HP, and a requirement of 40 or more, which looks about right now. That's a Claw/Claw/Bite, or a nice dose of Meteor Swarm on average.


Trying to think of more powers to add to the pool, and a better name for some of them. Maybe some SLAs, like the Convincing Argument?

Destrude
2011-06-07, 11:27 AM
Still tinkering with this project, but I've hit a bit of an impasse. Balancing one class against another is much harder when you haven't nailed down what the other class can do, so I'm looking at throwing up some of the other classes and tackling multiple parts at once.


Base classes so far:

Drifter = Int based skillmonkey with access to free skill tricks (from Complete Scoundrel) as well as special tricks above and beyond those (special combat maneuvers, manipulating the battlefield, social trickery, ect)

Ghostwalker = you've already seen what I have so far. :smallbiggrin: Wis based front-liner with tricks up his sleeve.

Glyphcaster = Int based utility caster, enhancing gear, laying traps, and other useful effects with runes and symbols.

Gunslinger = Int based gunman, probably branching into either TWF with pistols or sniping with rifles, although I'm open to more original ideas. Will also be able to build, upgrade, and create special ammo for the party's guns.

Sawbones = Wis based healer/buffer with sneak attack progression and a few other benefits based on knowing thine enemy.

Spellslinger = Cha based caster using a refluffed psionics power point system, probably focusing on battlefield effects and some blasting abilities.

Tactician (needs new name) = sort of a mashup between the Bard and Cavalier, grants bonuses to the party based on A) Knowledge checking the enemy, B) one of several pre-defined "Tactical Maneuvers", or C) based off his performance in combat (if he crits, bonus crit chance for the party for X rounds, ect). Somewhat Cha based.

Totem Warrior = Cha based tribal fighter, gains special abilities based on totem animal (wow, never would have figured that based on the name! LOL), also gains some fear-causing effects and ranger-esque survival abilities.



Ok, some baseline assumptions I'm working with:

1) Casting in general has been nerfed pretty hard. Even the Spellslinger will probably cap out with 6th Lvl Spells/Powers, and the Glyphcaster and Sawbones are limited in how many things they can maintain at once. I want to retain the utility and flexibility of magic, without making it a requirement that every other class compete with 9th level spell power.

2) Ideally, everything should be in the Tier 3 neighborhood. This is going to eventually require recalculating a good chunk of the monsters and hazards, not to mention rebalancing CR expectations. Luckily, all that will come after sorting out the classes.

3) Healing is limited. The Sawbones isn't posted yet, but his healing will focus primarily on granting of temp HP beforehand and the speeding up of natural healing afterwards. Magical healing is possible, but runs the risk of causing the Whitelight Shakes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3098490&postcount=77) and other unpleasant side effects.

4) Part of the point in running a post-Apoc game of any flavor is the hazardous nature of the world itself. Travel is dangerous, slow, and a primary feature of the world. Therefore, teleportation (excepting short range) is out. Super-high speeds are mostly out, except for the Trailblazer PrC which is still in the works. And automatic safety from traveling hazards is out. No constant flight or levitation, no immunity from the sun and heat, ect.



Some of these concepts and classes are cribbed from what we know of the original Dustlands, and some are new ideas entirely. The old ones are used with permission (and will probably mutate over time anyway), and the new ones are open for anyone who wants to try them. Just let me know how it goes, I could use the feedback. :smallbiggrin:

Should have a few new powers for the Ghostwalker up soon, and following that the beginnings of another base class. Any one in particular you guys want to see first?

Wyntonian
2011-06-07, 01:22 PM
Hey, if you do a PbP of this, i'm totally in. This looks awesome.

Destrude
2011-06-07, 07:14 PM
Hey, if you do a PbP of this, i'm totally in. This looks awesome.

I'll definitely need playtesters once the primary classes have a little more meat on their bones, so there is a possibility of a Pbp game somewhere in the nearish future. Hopefully I'll get a chance to really get cracking on some of the other classes in the next couple of days.

Thinking of working on the Glyphcaster next, to get a better comparative of expected arcane power level vs. mundane. Would it be better to put that in a separate thread, or just post it in here?

Destrude
2011-06-07, 11:30 PM
In the mean time, some new ideas for Ghostwalker powers.

Lesser Powers:

Skulltap(Ex): Experience has taught the Ghostwalker that a little unnecessary roughness can be helpful. By taking a Standard Action to attack, the Ghostwalker can cause an affect similar to the spell Touch of Idiocy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/touch-of-idiocy) in addition to his normal damage. This effect lasts for 10 minutes, and stacks with itself, but still cannot drop a score below 1.

No Fear(Ex): Some Ghostwalkers are just too hardboiled (or bullheaded) to be afraid when they should be. Watching a man spit in the face of a dragon can be strangely inspiring, and so the Ghostwalker's teammates gain some measure of his strength of will. Upon making a Will Saving throw against a Fear effect, the Ghostwalker may take a -2 to the save. If he succeeds, he may grant a +4 Morale bonus on Will Saves to a number of people equal to his Wisdom Mod for 1 round per Ghostwalker Level.
Not sure if I'm wording this right, seems clunky. Anyone know the official wording rules for abilities?


Regular Powers:

Grim Interrogator(Su): An unnerving air surrounds many Ghostwalkers, causing palms to sweat, hands to tremble, and lies to falter. As a Full-Round Action, the Ghostwalker may create an effect similar to the spell Zone of Truth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/z/zone-of-truth), with a Caster Level equal to his Ghostwalker Level and a DC of 10 + 1/2 Ghostwalker Level + Wis Mod. This ability is usable a number of times per day equal to his Wis Mod.
I like this one, not sure why I didn't think of it before.

Anonymity: A Ghostwalker can draw on the aura of mystery and aloofness that surrounds him, enforcing its effect on those who would try to uncover his secrets. He gains SR = 10 + his Ghostwalker Level against any Scrying or Divination effect targeted on him or including him in it's area. If the spell fails to penetrate his SR, it shows nothing but a barren landscape filled with mists and a single shadow.
Feeling like this might be a core ability instead, not sure though.

Destrude
2011-06-22, 01:26 PM
Added in the new powers to the main list, and tidied it up a bit. Still grinding the gears of design on the Glyphcaster as well, hope to put that up fairly soon.