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arguskos
2011-05-27, 04:06 PM
At the good doctor's request (Doc Roc, that is), I have undertaken a bizarre and potentially fatal project: the creation of a base class or two that fits in-between D&D 3.x and his own variant system, Legend.

This thread is about the Knight, a class that never got enough love in 3.5 and could frankly use the help. This "fix", if you can call it that, will be compatible with both Legend and 3.5 (though it'll need some tweaking for either, of course, and I leave that to your discretion).

Without further adieu, I give you...

The Knight!


http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs38/f/2008/362/2/8/Dragon_Knight_by_porco2.jpg
"By my strength will my master's will be done."
-Jacobi Sartren, Knight in the service of the red dragon Ashardalon.

By porco2 (http://porco2.deviantart.com/) on deviantArt.


http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/018/8/f/Silver_Knight_by_Keun_chul.jpg
"You don't have a chance in hell, friend."
-Ketrin Cowac, Knight in the service of the Thule Society, to a mark.

By keun-chul (http://keun-chul.deviantart.com/) on deviantArt.



The Knight is a often misunderstood figure. Knights have dedicated their lives to the service of an organization, society, or singular lord, similar to Paladins. However, where Paladins are believers in a god or similar power, Knights are more earthly in their allegiances.

The Knight is a dedicated front-line warrior, and though they each learn secrets from their respective orders, all knightly descends from a singular original order. This order, lost to history, passed on certain abilities, known as the challenges, along with certain special martial techniques. All told, these special techniques along with the unique powers that each dedication gives its knights have created a powerful and new breed of warrior.

Knights are non-magical martialists, and rely on their physical characteristics like any other martialists. However, like Paladins, Knights benefit from a strong personality, and so should take care to prioritize Charisma.

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+2|The Seven Challenges, Fighting Challenge, Code of Honor

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+3|Knightly Order

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+3|Sweeping Strike

4th|+4|+4|+1|+4|Test of Mettle

5th|+5|+4|+1|+4|Knightly Order

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+5|Focused Blow

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+5|Dauntless Challenge

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+6|Knightly Order

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+6|Bulwark

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+7|Mind of Steel

11th|+11/+6/+6|+7|+3|+7|Knightly Order

12th|+12/+7/+7|+8|+4|+8|Hurling Strike

13th|+13/+8/+8|+8|+4|+8|Say My Name And I Am There

14th|+14/+9/+9|+9|+4|+9|Knightly Order

15th|+15/+10/+10|+9|+5|+9|Granite Strike

16th|+16/+11/+11/+11|+10|+5|+10|My Word Is My Bond

17th|+17/+12/+12/+12|+10|+5|+10|Knightly Order

18th|+18/+13/+13/+13|+11|+6|+11|Quicksilver Strike

19th|+19/+14/+14/+14|+11|+6|+11|Loyal Beyond Death

20th|+20/+15/+15/+15|+12|+6|+12|Knightly Order, Unbreakable Valor

[/table]
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d12

Class Skills:
The Knight's class skills (and their associated key ability modifiers) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (nobility and royalty, Int), Knowledge (religion, Int), Knowledge (engineering, Int), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Knights, befitting their place as complex and variable agents of their orders, are proficient with simple and martial weapons, along with one exotic weapon of their choice. They are proficient with all armors and shields, including tower shields.

The Seven Challenges (Ex): The core of the knight's training revolves around their unique method of confronting problems, called the challenges. Each challenge is a verbally declaration of some kind, be it to a foe, to an ally, or to the self. Knights have two challenges per/day/class level, and challenge uses are expended for their Fighting Challenge, Test of Mettle, Dauntless Challenge, Mind of Steel, Say My Name And I Am There, My Word Is My Bond, and Loyal Beyond Death abilities.

Fighting Challenge (Ex): The first and most basic of the seven challenges, the fighting challenge is a simple calling-out of a single foe, stimulating the anger centers of the brain and provoking a violent reaction. As a swift action, the knight may expend a single challenge and target one creature within 30 ft. That creature must make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 the knight's class level+the knight's Charisma modifier). If they fail, they must attack the knight to the exclusion of all other creatures or targets for a number of rounds equal to half the knight's class level (rounded down, minimum 1). If they succeed, they can attack whoever they like, but suffer a circumstance penalty to their attack rolls equal to half the knight's class level (rounded down, minimum 1) for a similar amount of rounds, unless they target the knight. No matter if the creature saves or not, the knight gains a circumstance bonus to his attack and damage rolls against that creature equal to half his class level (rounded down, minimum 1).

Fighting challenge is a sonic, language-dependent, mind-affecting ability. If the creature cannot understand the knight's language or is immune to mind-affecting abilities, the challenge fails, and the use is not expended. A knight may only have one fighting challenge active at any time.

Code of Honor: Much like a Paladin, Knights are sworn to serve, but where a Paladin serves a divine master, Knights serve a much more earthly one. The society, organization, or association that the Knight is a member of will give to him a set of rules and strictures that must be followed to be a member of that society. This code of honor varies wildly between the organization and should be worked out between the player of the Knight and the DM.

It is recommended that the Code of Honor not be exceedingly strict, and instead serve as a set of roleplaying guidelines for the player and the organization. Great care must be taken with the Code. Finally, there should be some punishment for flagrant violations of the Code. It is recommended that this punishment be that the Knight cannot take further levels in Knight until an atonement for the transgression has been undergone.

Knightly Order (Varies): Each Knight has sworn allegiance to an organization, lord, or society at 1st level, and at 2nd level learns the first secret technique of that order, learning another one every three levels thereafter (2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 20).

These abilities are taken from a single track, selected from Legend. You can find the most recent Legend release here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197886) If you have questions about Legend or tracks, I suggest you take them there, as that's the proper venue for such discussion. :smallwink:

Sweeping Strike (Ex): Knights learn how to use their weapons to the best advantage they can. At 3rd level, they learn how to perform a sweeping strike, spinning their weapon in a 360˚ circle around them, tripping everyone in that area. As a standard action, a knight may perform a sweeping strike. This functions exactly like a trip in all ways, save that it targets every square adjacent to the knight. A knight may choose to exempt a square at his option.

At level 13, this ability affects the knight's entire threatened area, not just adjacent squares.

Test of Mettle (Ex): The second of the challenges, the test of mettle is a test set by the knight for himself. As a swift action, the knight may expend a single challenge and select any one creature within 60 ft with either hit dice or challenge rating greater than the knight's class level. The knight gains a circumstance bonus to attacks and damage against that creature equal to his knight level for one round/knight level. However, if that creature is still alive at the end of test of mettle's duration, or the knight is knocked unconscious during test of mettle's duration, the knight suffers a circumstance penalty to attacks and damage equal to that creature's hit dice or challenge rating (which ever is greater) for one round per knight level.

Test of mettle is a sonic, language-dependent, mind-affecting ability. If the knight is immune to sonic or mind-affecting abilities, or cannot understand his own language, the test fails and no use is expended.

Focused Blow (Ex): Knights are such potent warriors that they train themselves to rely on only a single strike in battle to lay their opponents low. Instead of the standard iterative attack mechanic, they roll as many attacks as they are normally allowed (in most cases, this will be the number afforded by their base attack bonus), but they stop after hitting once. This means they only hit once per full attack. However, to compensate for this, knights deal double damage on a successful hit.

At level 11, they may hit twice in a full attack. Each attack deals double damage, as normal.

Dauntless Challenge (Ex): The third of the seven challenges, the dauntless challenge is among the bravest (and most foolhardy) of the seven. This ability functions exactly like fighting challenge, save that the knight must expend two challenges and targets all enemy creatures within a 30 ft radius of himself.

Dauntless challenge is a sonic, language-dependent, mind-affecting ability. If the creature cannot understand the knight's language or is immune to mind-affecting abilities, the challenge fails, and the uses are not expended. A knight may only have one dauntless challenge active at any time.

Bulwark (Ex): Knights are adept at controlling the flow of battle, and to that end learn how to maneuver themselves into the path of almost anything. As a move action, the knight may activate bulwark, which lasts for a number of rounds equal to the knight's level. While bulwark is active, the knight may, as an immediate action, move into the square of an ally within 10 ft and serve as the target of an attack that targets the ally. Taking damage for an ally ends bulwark.

Mind of Steel (Ex): The fourth of the challenges, mind of steel is among the least understood by laymen. As a move action, the knight may expend two challenges in order to lock his patterns of thinking, granting him immunity to enchantment and mind-affecting effects for a number of rounds equal to his knight level.

Additionally, mind of steel erects powerful retributive defenses around the knight's mind. Any creature that targets a knight under the effects of mind of steel with an enchantment or mind-affecting effect has that ability rebounded upon them by the effect. They must save against their own effect, and the knight is considered the originator of the ability.

Hurling Strike (Su): Anyone can throw a sword. Only the best can do it well. And only the knight can call it back afterwards without magical aid. A knight has somehow learned how to instill his weapon with a measure of his own devotion, and so when thrown, it comes back to him unerringly. As a standard action, the knight may throw his weapon in a 60 ft line, making a single attack against every creature in that line. At the end of the line, the knight's blade returns to him.

Say My Name And I Am There (Ex): The fifth of the seven challenges, this skill allows an ally to summon the knight to their side with but a word. As a swift action, the knight may expend three challenges and target a single ally in range, granting them the ability to call the knight. As long as the knight is within 60 ft, the target of this ability may speak the knight's name (a free action) and the knight will hear them, immediately rushing to an adjacent square. If there is no adjacent square, this ability fails.

Say My Name And I Am There is a sonic, language-dependent ability. If the ally cannot understand the knight upon initial use, or the knight cannot understand the ally upon calling, the challenge fails and the uses are expended. This ability will lay dormant indefinitely. A knight can only have one Say My Name And I Am There active at once.

Granite Strike (Ex): Able to channel the immovable and indomitable spirit of the earth, the knight learns how to stop an enemy's movement cold in a single strike. As a standard action, the knight may make a melee attack. If the attack hits, it deals damage as normal (so, doubled, thanks to Focused Blow) and the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 the knight's class level+the knight's Charisma modifier) or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to half the knight's class level (rounded down, minimum 1).

My Word Is My Bond (Su): A knight is so dedicated to his cause that once his word is given, it can never be broken, not even by circumstances beyond his control. The sixth of the seven challenges, My Word Is My Bond permits the knight to unconsciously tap into the latent magical energy of the universe through sheer dedication. As an immediate action, he may expend three challenges to reroll any roll he has made in the last round.

Quicksilver Strike (Ex): The last of the knight's unique combat tricks, the quicksilver strike teaches the knight how to strike faster than the eye can see. Once/encounter, the knight may use Quicksilver Strike to make an attack as an immediate action.

Loyal Beyond Death (Ex): The last and greatest of the seven challenges, a knight's dedication is so strong, so unbreakable, that he can transcend death itself to complete his tasks. As an immediate action, when the knight would be killed by an attack or effect, he may expend four challenges and instead be re-set to full hp, and have all conditions (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm) removed from him. Finally, he regains all his challenge uses.

Loyal Beyond Death can only be used once/day.

Unbreakable Valor (Ex): At this point, the knight has reached the pinnacle of duty, honor, dedication, and valor. At level 20, the knight gains a number of abilities. First, he regains one use of challenge per round. Second, he is no longer restricted to a maximum of two attacks/full attack, but still deals double damage on a hit. Finally, the knight gains the ability to, as a full-round action, expend twenty challenges and make a declaration against all enemies within a 60 ft radius of himself. Any enemy that hears this declaration must make a Fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 the knight's class level+the knight's Charisma modifier) or die of fright. This is a mind-affecting, sonic, language-dependent, fear effect.

Flickerdart
2011-05-27, 09:32 PM
Knights gain one challenge per/day/class level
I believe you mean "Knights can use their challenge abilities once per day per class level" or similar. The way you have it, not only is it weird grammatically, but the Knight can just hang around his castle for a month and have hundreds of challenge uses.


As a swift action, the knight may expend a single challenge and target one creature within g0 ft.
How many is g0?

arguskos
2011-05-27, 09:34 PM
I believe you mean "Knights can use their challenge abilities once per day per class level" or similar. The way you have it, not only is it weird grammatically, but the Knight can just hang around his castle for a month and have hundreds of challenge uses.
Ah, good note.


How many is g0?
g0 ft are all of the ft, obviously.

Where was that particular terrible typo?

EDIT: Nvm, I took care of it.

Ziegander
2011-05-28, 01:16 AM
I read the class, and I gotta say, it's very nice, but one thing stuck out to me as a grievous error.


If they fail, they must attack the knight to the exclusion of all other creatures or targets for a number of rounds equal to half the knight's class level (rounded down). If they succeed, they can attack whoever they like, but suffer a circumstance penalty to their attack rolls equal to half the knight's class level (rounded down) for a similar amount of rounds, unless they target the knight. No matter if the creature saves or not, the knight gains a circumstance bonus to his attack and damage rolls against that creature equal to half his class level (rounded down).

As written at first level the duration of the challenge is 0 rounds, the penalty to attack rolls is -0 if their save succeeds, and the knight's bonus to attack and damage is +0. Your only significant class feature (aside from the Combat Training skill, which I'm on the fence about) does nothing.

Speaking of Combat Training, I really like all three of the effects... I'm just not so sure they should be attached to a skill, or rather, I'm not so sure they should be represented by a skill of their own that only the Knight has access to... Roll With It could definitely work with Balance or Tumble (or either). The other two, Showmanship and Challenge Overcome, could theoretically be rolled in as new uses of Concentration if renamed. The static bonus to things is really unnecessary in my opinion, especially with Showmanship in there, all you're really benefiting from is the Initiative boost, which is nice, but I don't see it as a crucial thing for a Knight class.

Another thing I was unsure about was the Focused Blow feature. 1) I don't understand how it works. 2) You're forcing that one hit on players, which I don't really like. As written it sounds like at 6th level, when making a full attack, instead of rolling two attacks at +6/+1, you roll one attack at +6 and if it hits then you deal double damage, but if it misses you just roll another one at +6 and if it hits then you deal double damage, but if it misses you, et cetera, ad infinitum. Of course, I very much doubt that's what you mean. I assume you mean that you roll your normal number of attacks, and if none of them hit then you whiff for the turn, but as soon as one of them hits you deal double damage and end your attack. Oh, and 3) The fluff of the feature says that they are all about a single powerful strike, and at 6th level the mechanics support this, but right there with the same 6th level feature is the improvement at 11th level in which the mechanics completely contradict the fluff. And the 20th level ability continues to contradict the fluff here.

Finally, I had a suggestion about making this more of an "in-between" 3.5 and Legend class (which I think is a very good idea as a matter of fact): Assign a "Track" listing to the class features for multiclassing. This will only matter when other 3.5/Legend classes are created, but it will be easy and it will be worth it. To that aim the Seven Challenges could be traded out for another classes Track. Or the Combat Tricks could be another Track encompassing all of (Sweeping Strike, Focused Blow, Bulwark, Hurling Strike, Granite Strike, and Quicksilver Strike). Clearly Knightly Order is another Track.

arguskos
2011-05-28, 07:52 AM
First, thanks for some actual feedback! Lovin' it. :smallcool:

Second, to the commentary!


As written at first level the duration of the challenge is 0 rounds, the penalty to attack rolls is -0 if their save succeeds, and the knight's bonus to attack and damage is +0. Your only significant class feature (aside from the Combat Training skill, which I'm on the fence about) does nothing.
...I completely forgot to include the "min 1" line. HERPDERPMAGURP

Imma go fix that now.


Speaking of Combat Training, I really like all three of the effects... I'm just not so sure they should be attached to a skill, or rather, I'm not so sure they should be represented by a skill of their own that only the Knight has access to... Roll With It could definitely work with Balance or Tumble (or either). The other two, Showmanship and Challenge Overcome, could theoretically be rolled in as new uses of Concentration if renamed. The static bonus to things is really unnecessary in my opinion, especially with Showmanship in there, all you're really benefiting from is the Initiative boost, which is nice, but I don't see it as a crucial thing for a Knight class.
While this is true, you don't have all of the puzzle. See, when I write a brew, it joins my compendium of work, all of which exists in a space with everything else. Combat Training was created to give martialists a Con-based skill, and to give Con more use than hit points (I am... aggravated about how Con basically got the shaft on things it's useful for :smallannoyed:).

While, at the moment, it appears that the Knight is the only thing that gets Combat Training, it's really not. Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Knight, Duskblade, and more should all have access to the skill. I gave it to Knight via a special class feature to just call attention to it. In my games, they'd just have it on the skill list.

As for the skill itself, it's meant to be a combatant-themed set of abilities to give martialists tricks so that they don't need to multi-class for Tumble/Concentration to acquire. It's a "martialists deserve nice things" idea.


Another thing I was unsure about was the Focused Blow feature. 1) I don't understand how it works. 2) You're forcing that one hit on players, which I don't really like. As written it sounds like at 6th level, when making a full attack, instead of rolling two attacks at +6/+1, you roll one attack at +6 and if it hits then you deal double damage, but if it misses you just roll another one at +6 and if it hits then you deal double damage, but if it misses you, et cetera, ad infinitum. Of course, I very much doubt that's what you mean. I assume you mean that you roll your normal number of attacks, and if none of them hit then you whiff for the turn, but as soon as one of them hits you deal double damage and end your attack. Oh, and 3) The fluff of the feature says that they are all about a single powerful strike, and at 6th level the mechanics support this, but right there with the same 6th level feature is the improvement at 11th level in which the mechanics completely contradict the fluff. And the 20th level ability continues to contradict the fluff here.
1). Yeah you do. This following is correct: "I assume you mean that you roll your normal number of attacks, and if none of them hit then you whiff for the turn, but as soon as one of them hits you deal double damage and end your attack."

2). While that is true, it's actually statistically better for players than having waves of attacks. This is why Legend shifted to a one-hit system, and I stole it blatantly from them. :smalltongue:

3). Fluff is fluff. Remember that most people who take levels in Knight are not going to make it to Knight 11 (over 50% of the progression is a lot in your average fantasy world), meaning that the majority of knights aren't going to have more than a single strike. Only the skilled and exceptional knights will, which is something I'm cool with.


Finally, I had a suggestion about making this more of an "in-between" 3.5 and Legend class (which I think is a very good idea as a matter of fact): Assign a "Track" listing to the class features for multiclassing. This will only matter when other 3.5/Legend classes are created, but it will be easy and it will be worth it. To that aim the Seven Challenges could be traded out for another classes Track. Or the Combat Tricks could be another Track encompassing all of (Sweeping Strike, Focused Blow, Bulwark, Hurling Strike, Granite Strike, and Quicksilver Strike). Clearly Knightly Order is another Track.
I'll add a note that the Seven Challenges are a second "fixed" track. The third "set" of abilities isn't going to be included as a track, though, just because it's pretty all over the place.

This was an experiment, really, to determine if a 3.5 class could be constructed that included a slot for a Legend track without being brokenly insane, and as of yet, I'm not really sure how it turned out (due to not being familiar enough with Legend to eyeball it, and no one who is that competent has commented yet).

There will likely be at least one or two other things that will come out of this great experiment, such as Duskblade and perhaps something a bit more creative, depending on Doc's desire and Legend's need.

jvluso
2011-05-28, 12:04 PM
I like the idea of a class that can work in both Legend and 3.5, however the balance for the two systems works very differently. In general, Legend classes are much more front-loaded with abilities, and some abilities are considered much better in 3.5. For example, unlimited out of combat healing is very difficult to get in 3.5, but in Legend it is much easier to get. This class, and any class balanced for 3.5 and Legend will either be very weak to start out with in Legend, or very good for dipping in 3.5.

This class, in 3.5, with a two level dip, gets a martial character the knight's challenge 2/day, access to a powerful combat skill, and unlimited healing (from Force of Will or Incantation). As a base class in 3.5, remember that Knightly Order it can be better spell casting than a Paladin(using either of the spells tracks). While this class seems to me to be quite balanced in Legend, if even a bit weak, it is far more powerful than a 3.5 class.

Also, if Unbreakable Valor was not related to Knight's Challenge, than the last set of abilities could be their third track.

Veyr
2011-05-28, 12:08 PM
Not that I completely disagree with the overall post, some details are... confusing to me.


In general, Legend classes are much more front-loaded with abilities
:smallconfused: In Legend, you get two class features at 1st, and one class feature every level thereafter.

In 3.5, the Cleric gets 1 class feature at 1st, and none thereafter. The Paladin has all of his meaningful features by 5th. The Monk has all of his by 2nd.

What do you mean?


For example, unlimited out of combat healing is very difficult to get in 3.5
No, it isn't.

Ziegander
2011-05-28, 12:09 PM
While this is true, you don't have all of the puzzle. [...] I gave it to Knight via a special class feature to just call attention to it. In my games, they'd just have it on the skill list. [...] As for the skill itself, it's meant to be a combatant-themed set of abilities to give martialists tricks so that they don't need to multi-class for Tumble/Concentration to acquire. It's a "martialists deserve nice things" idea.

Fair enough.


1). Yeah you do. This following is correct: "I assume you mean that you roll your normal number of attacks, and if none of them hit then you whiff for the turn, but as soon as one of them hits you deal double damage and end your attack."

Okay, then I think you need to rewrite your ability, because "roll attacks until you hit" means exactly what it says and doesn't mean what I said in the above quote.


There will likely be at least one or two other things that will come out of this great experiment, such as Duskblade and perhaps something a bit more creative, depending on Doc's desire and Legend's need.

Heck it's already inspired me to work on a [3.5/Legend] Fighter redux. I think it's coming along well so far.

arguskos
2011-05-28, 12:58 PM
I like the idea of a class that can work in both Legend and 3.5, however the balance for the two systems works very differently. In general, Legend classes are much more front-loaded with abilities, and some abilities are considered much better in 3.5. For example, unlimited out of combat healing is very difficult to get in 3.5, but in Legend it is much easier to get. This class, and any class balanced for 3.5 and Legend will either be very weak to start out with in Legend, or very good for dipping in 3.5.

This class, in 3.5, with a two level dip, gets a martial character the knight's challenge 2/day, access to a powerful combat skill, and unlimited healing (from Force of Will or Incantation). As a base class in 3.5, remember that Knightly Order it can be better spell casting than a Paladin(using either of the spells tracks). While this class seems to me to be quite balanced in Legend, if even a bit weak, it is far more powerful than a 3.5 class.

Legend has a higher general power level, yeah, but this fits well enough. And how is the Dip Syndrome my problem? :smallconfused:

Not to trivialize that point, but I am not designing to avoid Dip Syndrome, since that's an inherent 3.5 issue, and is up to DMs and players to sort out themselves. At some tables, that's not an issue. At others, it is. Sort that out yourself in a manner that befits your table. :smallwink:

Also, comparing it to the PALADIN, a notoriously weak class in 3.5, strikes me as... well... kinda pointless.


Also, if Unbreakable Valor was not related to Knight's Challenge, than the last set of abilities could be their third track.
I know. I purposefully avoided that. I wanted them to have a variable track, a fixed track, and a set of misc. abilities. I *could* reshape Unbreakable Valor accordingly, but this isn't a complete Legend slot-in, and I leave such things to the realm of derivative work.


Okay, then I think you need to rewrite your ability, because "roll attacks until you hit" means exactly what it says and doesn't mean what I said in the above quote.
Eh, fair enough. I was worried about that wording. I'll... see what can be done.


Heck it's already inspired me to work on a [3.5/Legend] Fighter redux. I think it's coming along well so far.
Isn't that just "pick three tracks, have fun"? :smalltongue:

I'll be talking to Doc about what he'd like to see done up next and then hacking away at it.

YouLostMe
2011-05-28, 01:10 PM
At any level, that first challenge contains some serious caster lockdown. I mean, druids and clerics don't care, but you're totally kicking sand in the beguiler's and dread necro's faces with that.

I think you should add that the first challenge requires an opponent to either attack OR cast a spell/manifest a power/initiate a maneuver on the target.

arguskos
2011-05-28, 01:13 PM
At any level, that first challenge contains some serious caster lockdown. I mean, druids and clerics don't care, but you're totally kicking sand in the beguiler's and dread necro's faces with that.

I think you should add that the first challenge requires an opponent to either attack OR cast a spell/manifest a power/initiate a maneuver on the target.
I thought that "attack" was pretty self-evident to mean "attack in your normal fashion", meaning spellcasters can sling spells... as long as it's at the knight.

Is it the consensus that I should add a line about that, clarify somewhat?

jvluso
2011-05-28, 01:31 PM
:smallconfused: In Legend, you get two class features at 1st, and one class feature every level thereafter.

In 3.5, the Cleric gets 1 class feature at 1st, and none thereafter. The Paladin has all of his meaningful features by 5th. The Monk has all of his by 2nd.

What do you mean?

I wrote a counter-argument, (spoilered below) but I end up disproving myself near the end: monk brings the average number of abilities up, and wizard brings it down.

I realized about half-way through writing that post that it isn't so much more front-loaded, but more powerful. Legend is balanced against Legend, not 3.5. In Legend you get 21 useful, scaling, class features. In 3.5 you get more like 15 class features, some of which are not useful and others don't scale.
Druid gets 7 non-scaling abilities, spells, an animal companion, wild shape, and wild empathy; the bard gets 9 songs, bardic knowledge and spells; barbarian gets 2 non-scaling abilities and 4 scaling abilities; Monk gets 11 scaling and 9 non-scaling; paladin gets 5 scaling, 4 non-scaling and spells; ranger gets 4 scaling, 7 non-scaling, and spells; rogue gets 3 scaling, 4 non-scaling and 4 that can be either; cleric and sorcerer each get 1 scaling and spells; wizard gets that with another scaling
If each level of spells is counted as a separate ability, and the outlier (druid) is not included, the average number of abilities is a little under 13.

On the class: the Knightly Order might have some unintended consequences because of the Shaman and Tactician's spells. Many of the spells use terms that don't exist in 3.5 (scene), and others will interact poorly with 3.5's item creation. All artificers in a world with this class would use the Knight's spell lists for cure and inflict wands, scrolls and potions, and many of the other spells for other items. Also, Factotums will all have ranks in combat training.

arguskos
2011-05-28, 01:38 PM
On the class: the Knightly Order might have some unintended consequences because of the Shaman and Tactician's spells. Many of the spells use terms that don't exist in 3.5 (scene), and others will interact poorly with 3.5's item creation. All artificers in a world with this class would use the Knight's spell lists for cure and inflict wands, scrolls and potions, and many of the other spells for other items.
Ok? Again, I'm unconcerned. This isn't a 100% plug-and-play, but a first test of the concept. I think with some jigging it can work, but like all brew, will definitely need jigging.


Also, Factotums will all have ranks in combat training.
They have ranks in everything anyways. I fail to be concerned. :smalltongue: Also, Combat Training isn't really broken or anything, so I'm not worried.

YouLostMe
2011-05-28, 02:23 PM
Ok? Again, I'm unconcerned. This isn't a 100% plug-and-play, but a first test of the concept. I think with some jigging it can work, but like all brew, will definitely need jigging.
Yeah, but he's saying it needs some jiggling, and is telling you to start jiggling if you want this class to be decent.


Also, Combat Training isn't really broken or anything, so I'm not worried. I disagree on two premesis. Here's the first: "If [Concept X] is so good that everyone who has the option to take it will end up taking it, it is overpowered." Well, everyone who has the option to take Combat Training will take it, therefore it is overpowered.

Now, let's grab one of those +30 items of Being Awesome at Skill Checks, and take max ranks with a skill AND stock Con (which is probably already happening for a melee class). You can end up with ridiculously high skill checks for Combat Training, meaning (effectively) DR Level/-, auto-succeeding at trips, grapples, bullrushes and the like, AND playing rocket launcher tag in melee.

This skill is far too full of absolute ownage to not be overpowered. It seems to be worth more than a feat, actually.

arguskos
2011-05-28, 02:45 PM
Yeah, but he's saying it needs some jiggling, and is telling you to start jiggling if you want this class to be decent.
The class IS decent without the track option. Tell you what, remove them from the equation and tell me if you think the class suddenly went to crap. Since it won't suddenly go to crap, I think we're ok. :smalltongue:

Notice how the presented issues are not the fault of the class, they are the fault of Legend spellcasting mechanics interacting with the widely-acknowledged-to-be-broken item creation mechanics of 3.5. I don't feel like that's my problem, to be honest.

Legend and 3.5 interfacing oddly was a known concern, but I can't fix it without overhauling 3.5 or Legend entirely to be more like the other one. Since that doesn't make a terrible amount of sense, I think we have to accept that certain tracks are just going to be weird and that there's little to be done about it. *shrug*


I disagree on two premesis. Here's the first: "If [Concept X] is so good that everyone who has the option to take it will end up taking it, it is overpowered." Well, everyone who has the option to take Combat Training will take it, therefore it is overpowered.
So? Same issue exists with Concentration, Autohypnosis, and/or Iaijutsu Focus, but no one argues that those are blatantly overpowered (only Iaijutsu Focus could be argued, and honestly, my experiences with it do not indicate such).


Now, let's grab one of those +30 items of Being Awesome at Skill Checks, and take max ranks with a skill AND stock Con (which is probably already happening for a melee class). You can end up with ridiculously high skill checks for Combat Training, meaning (effectively) DR Level/-, auto-succeeding at trips, grapples, bullrushes and the like, AND playing rocket launcher tag in melee.
That's... not Combat Training's fault. That's the fact that you're using the Item Creation rules to do something that is considered broken by many. Also, I'd like to point out that boosting skills was broken looooong before Combat Training hit the scene.

Further, your analysis of what Combat Training can do is somewhat incorrect.
-Yes, on one attack, you can have DR=skill ranks. Ok, cool, that's a one-time save button. Not seeing a bad thing.
-Yes, you can functionally auto-succeed on a single grapple, disarm, and sunder. That's nice, I guess, but the only one I'm concerned about is the disarm, and really, disarming needs the boost.
-Yes, you gain one coup-de-grace on steroids per encounter. That one is powerful, yes, but at those levels, you could probably just kill them anyways.

If you want to argue against something I've created (and I'm all fine with that, actually, helps me streamline my work), please do me the honor of actually being clear about it's capabilities. The skill cannot interact with trips or bull rushes, is not flat DR, and has once/encounter limitations.

Oh, to shut down the preemptive encounter argument, I define an encounter as a combat encounter OR once/five minutes outside of combat. Ask your DM for details about his definition, but don't hold me responsible if he makes a bad call. :smalltongue:


This skill is far too full of absolute ownage to not be overpowered. It seems to be worth more than a feat, actually.
And yet, it's not as good as you claim. Since it has rank limitations on the DR, a very specific list of possible roll substitutions, and a coup-de-grace that's not as good as it appears when the math is run, since you could just stab them to death.

I will acknowledge that Combat Training is good, one of the stronger skills even. Is it broken? I'd argue that no, it's merely worth taking. Where you might look at the other skills and say "but this one does so much more, it must be restricted", I'd look at them and say "let's give them more toys to play with, bring everyone up a notch" (and in fact have done some of that already with my Monk rewrite).

Ziegander
2011-05-28, 02:45 PM
Isn't that just "pick three tracks, have fun"? :smalltongue:

lol, strangely I'd never even considered that. :smallamused:

But no, the class I'm working on is heavily steeped in Weapons of Legacy menus and lore as basically all the standard fighting-men in fiction have been associated with a legendary item of some kind (the one-ring, excalibur, icingdeath, etc). The basic gist is that it gets a customizable legacy weapon via the Heroic Legacy track with none of the normal taxes or hoops to jump through, it gets a track of legitimate class features a la the Combat Training track, and then it gets the requisite bonus feats at 1st, 2nd, and every three levels thereafter. The bonus feats, as well as the Living Legend capstone, are not a part of a track.

It is a tremendous amount of work setting up the Heroic Legacy track, but that's okay because I want it to offer a very wide variety of interesting choices.

arguskos
2011-05-28, 02:49 PM
lol, strangely I'd never even considered that. :smallamused:
You should have. I'd play that class. :smalltongue:


But no, the class I'm working on is heavily steeped in Weapons of Legacy menus and lore as basically all the standard fighting-men in fiction have been associated with a legendary item of some kind (the one-ring, excalibur, icingdeath, etc). The basic gist is that it gets a customizable legacy weapon via the Heroic Legacy track with none of the normal taxes or hoops to jump through, it gets a track of legitimate class features a la the Combat Training track, and then it gets the requisite bonus feats at 1st, 2nd, and every three levels thereafter. The bonus feats, as well as the Living Legend capstone, are not a part of a track.
Sounds boss.


It is a tremendous amount of work setting up the Heroic Legacy track, but that's okay because I want it to offer a very wide variety of interesting choices.
Sounds like it's going to. Good luck, I look forward to seeing it!

Doc Roc
2011-05-28, 04:04 PM
Please treat the shaman list as divine, for 3.x back compatibility. Let me know if you want a hand with focused blow.

arguskos
2011-05-28, 07:01 PM
Please treat the shaman list as divine, for 3.x back compatibility. Let me know if you want a hand with focused blow.
So noted.

If you have any feedback, please, feel free. Or, more likely, lay it on me when I'm online next. :smalltongue:

YouLostMe
2011-05-28, 11:25 PM
Lots of rebuttal in there.


The class IS decent without the track option. Tell you what, remove them from the equation and tell me if you think the class suddenly went to crap. Since it won't suddenly go to crap, I think we're ok. :smalltongue:

Notice how the presented issues are not the fault of the class, they are the fault of Legend spellcasting mechanics interacting with the widely-acknowledged-to-be-broken item creation mechanics of 3.5. I don't feel like that's my problem, to be honest.

Legend and 3.5 interfacing oddly was a known concern, but I can't fix it without overhauling 3.5 or Legend entirely to be more like the other one. Since that doesn't make a terrible amount of sense, I think we have to accept that certain tracks are just going to be weird and that there's little to be done about it. *shrug*Here are your options:
a) Remove the Legend track from the class: It fix the wonkiness of the class, BUT you haven't done that yet.
b) Add a stipulation about how you can remove the Legend track from the class: It would fix the wonkiness of the class, BUT it looks like a band-aid fix and you haven't done that yet.
c) Keep the Legend track: The class will still be wonky, BUT you won't have to change anything.

I'm not complaining about the fact that someone can adapt this class and make it better, I'm complaining that your OP contains wonky material. And you should change that, or else it will be wonky material forever.

In other news, STOP DISMISSING THINGS! You can say "well this is fixed easily" as much as you'd like, but when push comes to shove, you haven't fixed a problem until you've fixed it. Take action. Change the class.


So? Same issue exists with Concentration, Autohypnosis, and/or Iaijutsu Focus, but no one argues that those are blatantly overpowered (only Iaijutsu Focus could be argued, and honestly, my experiences with it do not indicate such).Erm... people use Autohypnosis all the time? I would disagree with that.

In addition, Concentration good, Iajutsu Focus is REALLY GOOD, Use Magic Device is REALLY GOOD, and the RAW version of Diplomacy is REALLY GOOD. People complain about those skills, and Iajutsu Focus isn't allowed in many games as a result of its power. As a Titan in the Playground, I'm sure you've seen more than 1 complaint about UMD, and maybe a few rants about how easy it is to break the world with Diplomacy as-written.


That's... not Combat Training's fault. That's the fact that you're using the Item Creation rules to do something that is considered broken by many. Also, I'd like to point out that boosting skills was broken looooong before Combat Training hit the scene. Ummm... so Glitterdust and Wail of the Banshee aren't bad, it's actually the fault of Fortitude and Will Saves?

Also, let's put a +30 bonus on some other skills. Profession (Underwater Basketweaving), ...kay. Jump, sure. Balance, cool. Spot or Listen, awesome. Combat Training, borken. UMD, borken as well.[/quote]


-Yes, on one attack, you can have DR=skill ranks. Ok, cool, that's a one-time save button. Not seeing a bad thing.
I missed that once/encounter thing. Hm, makes more sense this way. Still throws me off, since its DR equal to your level, and no other skill provides a bonus that way.

-Yes, you can functionally auto-succeed on a single grapple, disarm, and sunder. That's nice, I guess, but the only one I'm concerned about is the disarm, and really, disarming needs the boost.Disarm, Grapple, and Sunder need a "boost", as in "better mechanics", not a number bonus. You're just making it easy to be strong with very weak mechanics, instead of making the system better. That, I would say, is still a bad thing.


-Yes, you gain one coup-de-grace on steroids per encounter. That one is powerful, yes, but at those levels, you could probably just kill them anyways.All right, let's look at it this way.
a) Use the RNG-breaking-items: It's overpowered.
b) Don't use RNG-breaking items: It's useless.

Either way it's bad.


If you want to argue against something I've created (and I'm all fine with that, actually, helps me streamline my work), please do me the honor of actually being clear about it's capabilities. The skill cannot interact with trips or bull rushes, is not flat DR, and has once/encounter limitations.
Sorry, I read "combat maneuvers" in showmanship and got confused, as your passive ability section at the beginning applied the Ranks/5 bonus to all combat maneuvers. If anything, I do believe that's a mark against the writing itself.

And now let me hop on another track here and argue that, if your abilities all have once/encounter limitations (aside from that passive +1 init/5 ranks, which is totally not-skill-like at all)... doesn't that mean they're too strong for skills? I mean, I can't think of a single somewhat-balanced skill that uses per-encounter abilities.


Oh, to shut down the preemptive encounter argument, I define an encounter as a combat encounter OR once/five minutes outside of combat. Ask your DM for details about his definition, but don't hold me responsible if he makes a bad call. :smalltongue: lol only grognards argue that.


And yet, it's not as good as you claim. Since it has rank limitations on the DR, a very specific list of possible roll substitutions, and a coup-de-grace that's not as good as it appears when the math is run, since you could just stab them to death. Rank limitations mean Level+3, the specific list means it's broken for a few things instead of a lot of things, and the coup-de-grace was analyzed with a +30 item of combat training bonuses. The alternative to that is also discussed, and either possibility renders the ability useless.


I will acknowledge that Combat Training is good, one of the stronger skills even. Is it broken? I'd argue that no, it's merely worth taking. Where you might look at the other skills and say "but this one does so much more, it must be restricted", I'd look at them and say "let's give them more toys to play with, bring everyone up a notch" (and in fact have done some of that already with my Monk rewrite).
If you allow all those widespread skill bonuses from items and feats and such to Combat Training, you break it, because the things it supports are super-useful in combat with high enough numbers. If you don't allow those things, the only ability that becomes worthwhile is Roll With It, and even that's only OK.

You're either bringing nothing up a notch, or you're giving another avenue for "Look at me being OP!"

And let me tack on another argument that has come to mind in light of the once/encounter rebuttal.

What you seem to have developed with Combat Training is a decent [Tactical] feat. Skills don't have once/encounter stuff, and they don't usually have all their uses compiled into a list in their class entry. Most skills are reactions to environmental stimuli (spot, listen, disable device, balance, jump, concentration, swim, climb, search, etc.), with few exceptions. Your skill is very much unlike any of those skills. It's more like three different low-level maneuvers than an actual skill.

So why is it a skill?

arguskos
2011-05-28, 11:52 PM
Here are your options:
a) Remove the Legend track from the class: It fix the wonkiness of the class, BUT you haven't done that yet.
b) Add a stipulation about how you can remove the Legend track from the class: It would fix the wonkiness of the class, BUT it looks like a band-aid fix and you haven't done that yet.
c) Keep the Legend track: The class will still be wonky, BUT you won't have to change anything.

I'm not complaining about the fact that someone can adapt this class and make it better, I'm complaining that your OP contains wonky material. And you should change that, or else it will be wonky material forever.

In other news, STOP DISMISSING THINGS! You can say "well this is fixed easily" as much as you'd like, but when push comes to shove, you haven't fixed a problem until you've fixed it. Take action. Change the class.

Erm... people use Autohypnosis all the time? I would disagree with that.

In addition, Concentration good, Iajutsu Focus is REALLY GOOD, Use Magic Device is REALLY GOOD, and the RAW version of Diplomacy is REALLY GOOD. People complain about those skills, and Iajutsu Focus isn't allowed in many games as a result of its power. As a Titan in the Playground, I'm sure you've seen more than 1 complaint about UMD, and maybe a few rants about how easy it is to break the world with Diplomacy as-written.

Ummm... so Glitterdust and Wail of the Banshee aren't bad, it's actually the fault of Fortitude and Will Saves?

Also, let's put a +30 bonus on some other skills. Profession (Underwater Basketweaving), ...kay. Jump, sure. Balance, cool. Spot or Listen, awesome. Combat Training, borken. UMD, borken as well.

I missed that once/encounter thing. Hm, makes more sense this way. Still throws me off, since its DR equal to your level, and no other skill provides a bonus that way.
Disarm, Grapple, and Sunder need a "boost", as in "better mechanics", not a number bonus. You're just making it easy to be strong with very weak mechanics, instead of making the system better. That, I would say, is still a bad thing.

All right, let's look at it this way.
a) Use the RNG-breaking-items: It's overpowered.
b) Don't use RNG-breaking items: It's useless.

Either way it's bad.


Sorry, I read "combat maneuvers" in showmanship and got confused, as your passive ability section at the beginning applied the Ranks/5 bonus to all combat maneuvers. If anything, I do believe that's a mark against the writing itself.

And now let me hop on another track here and argue that, if your abilities all have once/encounter limitations (aside from that passive +1 init/5 ranks, which is totally not-skill-like at all)... doesn't that mean they're too strong for skills? I mean, I can't think of a single somewhat-balanced skill that uses per-encounter abilities.

lol only grognards argue that.

Rank limitations mean Level+3, the specific list means it's broken for a few things instead of a lot of things, and the coup-de-grace was analyzed with a +30 item of combat training bonuses. The alternative to that is also discussed, and either possibility renders the ability useless.


If you allow all those widespread skill bonuses from items and feats and such to Combat Training, you break it, because the things it supports are super-useful in combat with high enough numbers. If you don't allow those things, the only ability that becomes worthwhile is Roll With It, and even that's only OK.

You're either bringing nothing up a notch, or you're giving another avenue for "Look at me being OP!"
There is little here I feel like debating. I have presented a piece of material for your consideration and included an extra supplementary piece of material, and have received two responses:
1. Stop dodging an issue I don't actually agree with. This is fine, a difference of perception, and can't be argued either way without the arguers looking like tossers.
-and-
2. Your supplementary material is bad. This one I have issues with, but not enough to attempt to dissuade you from believing as you do. *shrug*

You claim there is an issue. I don't see one, instead I see that this was an experiment to see how Legend tracks might interact with a 3.5 chassis. As far as I have been made aware, the only actual issue comes from an interaction between the Item Creation mechanics of 3.5 and some Legend spellcasting tracks, the solution of which is well-beyond the scope of this project. I'd love to fix that, by the by, but it's just not something I'm doing here.

As to the "wonkiness" of the material... THAT WAS INTENDED. What has been presented was a known concern! I knew it'd look a bit funky, and honestly, I'm fine with that. I don't feel it is inherently unbalanced, and frankly, the aesthetic concerns aren't that great. This would easily fit at home in a Tier 3 3.5 game, or in a Legend game (with a bit of tweaking to fit the Legend style-guide, probably).

We are going to differ on this point. You believe, as far as I can tell, that experimentation in this vein is a bad thing. I do not, and am willing to make something that looks strange but works mechanically. I don't see an issue, and you've yet to convince me that there is one, when you seem to be fixated on a skill that I'm not entire sure you've run the math out on yet (as I did when I wrote it) and that was added as a cherry on top of the material. *shrug*

If you have some complaint against the actual class mechanics (and not the inclusion of the Legend track option), I'd like to hear it. Otherwise, I'm not seeing a lot to be gained here, other than an argument about a skill.


lol only grognards argue that.
For the record, using grognard as a pejorative to dismiss a point is insulting. Especially when it was irrelevant to what I said. :smallannoyed:

I don't (and have no intention to) attack your character, please, extend me the same courtesy.


What you seem to have developed with Combat Training is a decent [Tactical] feat. Skills don't have once/encounter stuff, and they don't usually have all their uses compiled into a list in their class entry. Most skills are reactions to environmental stimuli (spot, listen, disable device, balance, jump, concentration, swim, climb, search, etc.), with few exceptions. Your skill is very much unlike any of those skills. It's more like three different low-level maneuvers than an actual skill.

So why is it a skill?
It's an experiment into what a skill can be, and pushes the boundaries of what a skill can do, something I value. But, I have a return question: why do you care? I have my reasons, have stated them, and you don't seem to care/agree with them. Why argue against so fervently against an experiment? :smallconfused:


EDIT: However, to end this inane bickering, I am removing Combat Training from the Knight. Now, can someone PLEASE JUST LOOK AT THE CLASS FEATURES DAMMIT?! :smallannoyed:

Veyr
2011-05-29, 12:38 AM
For the record, using grognard as a pejorative to dismiss a point is insulting. Especially when it was irrelevant to what I said. :smallannoyed:

I don't (and have no intention to) attack your character, please, extend me the same courtesy.
I believe he was saying that he wouldn't make the argument you pre-empted, because only a grognard would (and by implication, he doesn't consider himself one). I could be wrong, of course, but that's how I read it.

Annnyway, I dislike the concept of adding skills to the game in general. Actually, yeah, I pretty much cannot think of any good reason to do so ever. Even adding new Spellcraft variants (a la Psicraft or Martial Lore) doesn't strike me as a wise decision. They end up poorly-supported in the rest of the material, and more importantly, 3.5 has far too many skills as it is. I haven't really read the details yet, on the skill or the class, but that's my initial reaction to the former.

I also don't really care for skills with direct combat application as a basic effect. UMD and Tumble are the best skills because they have direct combat application with no other investment, and I don't think it's good to add to that (unless you do so with other skills, I suppose; I'd support it as a general concept, just not within 3.5 as-is).

YouLostMe
2011-05-29, 01:03 AM
For the record, using grognard as a pejorative to dismiss a point is insulting. Especially when it was irrelevant to what I said. :smallannoyed:

I don't (and have no intention to) attack your character, please, extend me the same courtesy.
Oh, I was hoping that bit of humor was going to clear up the air. Obviously that failed. Believe me when I say I was chuckling as I wrote that. Grognards just so funny of a word.

EDIT: It also came to mind, reading Veyr's post, that you may have thought the "this is my counterpoint" argument that you presented was what I was directing my grognard comment to. I did not mean that at all; Veyr has what I'm talking about down.

Moving on...

Your daily challenges are pretty low in quantity, especially at the lower levels. I recommend changing the numbers to something like 3 + 1/(3 Knight levels) or something, so that level 1 players don't have a really crappy schtick, and level 20 characters still need to watch their uses/day. I also recommend making up a feat saying "add +X to your daily challenges", since that's what the bard does, and I'm sure players will love you for it. Finally in this section, there are some abilities outlined in this class that just don't seem challenge-y. Could you rename this Knightly Passions (or something less dumb), to make the term more encompassing of this class's features?

Fighting Challenge's lack of specification about how spells and powers and such count as "attacks" too still bothers me.

Code of Honor is begging for outlines. I don't know where (maybe after the class materials), but samples would be lovely.

The term "360˚ circle" in Sweeping Strike is redundant, as it presupposes that there are 250˚ circles and 120˚ circles. I'd just make it "circle". Can you do this with any weapons, or are you still only allowed to do it with no weapons/spiked chain/whatever. Also, I'd like to see the Improved Trip feat here, and maybe something to avoid getting tripped retaliatorily at all times (without dropping a weapon).

Test of Mettle isn't very useful... I mean, in a boss battle, you wouldn't want to use it until you were pretty sure you could beat the guy, at which point this loses a lot of its potency. I recommend making it last for the entire encounter, with no drawback. I mean, you ARE only getting one challenge/level. They're pretty valuable at this stage.

Dauntless Challenge is way better than Fighting Challenge, as the Knight is obviously meant to be a tank for the party. Since this is his shtick, and those challenges are in low quantity when you get this ability, I'd recommend it only working on foes with HD or CR 1-3 (your discretion) less than the Knight's level, and not having it cost 2 challenges. It'll play up his strengths, and it won't entice boss monsters to stab him in the eye when he's just trying to get the mooks out of the way. Alternatively, it also won't help him take the blows when faced with 1-3-monster challenges just below his level.

For Bulwark, does "attack" include spells and psionics as above in Fighting Challenge? If so, does it count area effects, or mind-affecting effects? Stipulations are needed here.

Mind of Steel is exactly what I expected. Tank it up.

Hurling Strike is... well, not super useful. I can see how people would like hitting lots of people, but it would be nicer to have an ability more related to the Knight's primary interest--getting hit a lot and staying alive through it.

[The following concerns are all about flavor] All right, explain to me how Say My Name and I am There is anywhere NEAR Extraordinary... and why you say that Mind of Steel is harder to understand than this. Thematically, je ne comprends pas. It's helpful, but it smells heavily of majik powurz, and I can imagine the inconvenience it could cause. Imagine giving this to a friend because the two of you are planning to split up tomorrow and you have extra challenges available at the end of the day. During dinner, they wouldn't be able to say your name to get your attention, because you'd end up getting teleported next to them. I mean, it's pretty funny, but I'd recommend adding some stipulation about making the word anything they want to avoid dumb people doing dumb things.

Granite Strike is... woah. Fort save v. Stun for 7 rounds minimum? And it's at will? WABARGL GET RID OF IT! Seriously, this needs some sort of revamp. Maybe stun duration based on how low their HD/CR (whichever is higher) is in comparison to the Knight's HD? No matter how you change this, I really don't see the need for it. This is a control ability, and you're adding it to a tanking class. I recommend dropping it, and finding something different.

My Word is My Bond makes no sense with its flavor. I don't even know what you were going for here.

Quicksilver Strike... get out of my house. Good name, cool ability concept, but why did you include it on a class that can't put it to good use? I mean, this is effectively +1 attack at your highest bonus per round. This could be so much more awesome if you change the class up to add some "If you hit an opponent, apply effect [X]" tanking stuff.

Loyal Beyond Death is crazy-OP, even if it's for a 19th-level character. You effectively get 2 whole characters for a fight. I recommend requiring a 4-challenge payment, but saying it applies when you would die from an effect that kills you or HP below -10 (including some stipulation about Bloodtalons and stuff that gives you a further negative HP max before death). You ignore that chance at death and keep fighting. The next time an effect that kills you succeeds, or you take another hit bringing you below your death maximum, you can spend another 4 challenges to keep going. This refreshing nonsense is broken, and is soooo not as cool.

Unbreakable Valor is incredibly broken, to the point where I don't think you really care about CR 20+ encounters, so I'll just let that stand.

Recommended Additions:
I want to see some abilities that say "If you hit and deal damage, then [Benefit Here]
Not all of your abilities are about tanking. Some of them are completely impertinent. Keep an eye out for those.
I expected Fast Healing of some level in here, or at the very least some sort of DR, since this class just wants to take a beating
If you're going to be the tank, you want good saves, Evasion and Mettle, and save bonuses (not all of those are necessary, but I'd say you need to include at least Mettle and Imp. Mettle, along with something to boost that crappy Reflex Save without items)

arguskos
2011-05-29, 05:01 PM
YouLostMe, I'll be back to you in a day or two. Right now is really rough for me IRL (lots of school work, finals, etc, plus other RL stuff). I'm not ignoring you, just busy. :smallwink:

I'll get back to this in a few days, when I find some time. If anyone else would like to discuss, please, don't let me stop you. :smallwink:

Ziegander
2011-05-29, 06:39 PM
This refreshing nonsense is broken, and is soooo not as cool.

I agree with this on the grounds that is overpowered, not that it is broken. I would recommend the 4 challenge usage and simply ignoring any damage or effect that would have killed you. For instance, you could use it in response to failing a save vs Finger of Death, or you could use it to completely ignore being dealt say 200 damage while you were only at 150 hp or so.


Unbreakable Valor is incredibly broken, to the point where I don't think you really care about CR 20+ encounters, so I'll just let that stand.

What's so broken about this? The double damage on all attacks part? Meh. That's really only broken if you're purposely trying to break it. The 1/encounter, weaker, Wail of the Banshee effect, while I don't understand how this is Knightly at all, is definitely not broken.

YouLostMe
2011-05-29, 09:53 PM
I agree with this on the grounds that is overpowered, not that it is broken. I would recommend the 4 challenge usage and simply ignoring any damage or effect that would have killed you. For instance, you could use it in response to failing a save vs Finger of Death, or you could use it to completely ignore being dealt say 200 damage while you were only at 150 hp or so.
I use those words synonymously... we may have a problem here.


What's so broken about this? The double damage on all attacks part? Meh. That's really only broken if you're purposely trying to break it. The 1/encounter, weaker, Wail of the Banshee effect, while I don't understand how this is Knightly at all, is definitely not broken.

Oh, will you look at that... it requires 20 challenge expenditures... I think I'm gonna go back to grade school and learn how to read again.

Ziegander
2011-05-29, 10:20 PM
I use those words synonymously... we may have a problem here.

No, no problem at all. I suppose that puts us in agreement.


Oh, will you look at that... it requires 20 challenge expenditures... I think I'm gonna go back to grade school and learn how to read again.

Getting a bit snippy.

Am I to understand then that you believe a weaker version of Wail of the Banshee usable twice per encounter would utterly unhinge the balance of a level 20+ game? Because if so, at that point, I would certainly have to begin questioning your understanding of the Epic environment.

Veyr
2011-05-29, 10:57 PM
Err... unless I'm greatly mistaken, I believe YouLostMe's last two lines were saying that he misread the line and that as-is, it's fine. The comment about grade school was, I believe, a bit of self-deprecating humor on his part.