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View Full Version : Psionics has a niche? Please?



Okuno
2011-06-02, 03:35 PM
To me, it just seems like the psion is just a mana sorcerer with a tweaked spell list and a bit more flexibility during casting. In short: there's nothing to distinguish it from just magic. Even if you use the Psionics is Different variant, all you're really doing is doubling the magic rules without adding anything new. This effect is already displayed in most psionic items, where we have the dorje a.k.a. wand, crown a.k.a. staff, &c.

Here's the thing: psionics is massively flavorful, and shouldn't be done away with, whether by disuse or merging everything (i.e. the mechanics, niche and even feel) in with everything magic already offers. Not in general, anyway.

With the situation set up, here's the problem I'm looking at: what can be done to give psionics something meaningful to call its own?

Maybe I'm out of the buzz (no surprise) and someone already did this, in which case links are nice.

I'm a second generation dungeon crasher, and so I remember reading about attack/defense modes in the old AD&D books. (No idea which one, and I'm not pulling the box out of the attic to check <.<) I was happy to see it again in the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, but by that point, my game design instincts had developed and I recognized immediately their uselessness in a low-psionics campaign like that generally described.

When EPH rolled in, I was sad to see the attack/defense modes done totally away with in EPH rather than expanded to something useful. That's my idea, but I'm not at all sure how to accomplish it. Obviously, expand the modes, give some modes to specific sorts of psychics (seers don't get much telekinesis), allow the modes to work against the laymen. But how to distinguish it from simulated spells or simulated stabbing? How to balance an essentially new system like that with casters without using caster mechanics? How to integrate psionics into a world wherein none of the monsters have any power resistance written into their stats without making a total revision of monsters, too?

I'm throwing open the floodgates for any ideas or links. They can be detailed or vague, qualitative or quantitative, expanding on my thoughts or developing a totally new line, and arbitrarily stupid.

Nero24200
2011-06-02, 04:33 PM
Well the problem I see isn't so much that they don't have a niche, it's that their niche now lies in the hands of the Wizard/Sorcerer.

Check the arcane version of Telekinesis and the Psionic versions and you may notice that the arcane casters are better at it (for starters you may notice I used the phrase Psionic versions, it's the same spell split into three seperate powers).

What's more other abilities which could be heavily suited to Psionics (Domination, some divination spells etc) are all in the hands of normal casters.

The sad truth is that as long as core casters have such a wide variety of spells at their disposal it becomes almost impossible for new casters to have a niche. In theory you could tweak the fluff of some spells to replicate a binder, shadowcaster or truenamer via core as well (with the shadowcaster and truenamer being particularly easy thanks to the Power Word and Shadow spell lines).

If you want a niche you may be better off tweaking core.

Glimbur
2011-06-02, 04:35 PM
Psionics can do some of the same things as wizard/cleric magic can, but there are also unique things. Time manipulation is easier, for example Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm). Mental control is easier, for example Death Urge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/deathUrge.htm). A self buffing character is different, for example Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) and the claws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metaphysicalClaw.htm) powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawsoftheVampire.htm).

There is an old post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10577897&postcount=11) which I found reposted which explains the problems people have with psionic attack/defense modes.

Seerow
2011-06-02, 04:39 PM
I agree with the above.

You want psionics to have a niche? You need to start cutting spells away from wizards (and maybe clerics where their spells overlap).

On the other hand, you may want to cut away some psionic powers that flow into what should be magic exclusive. Where exactly that line should be cut is harder to determine.

Squark
2011-06-02, 04:42 PM
Hyperconscious does reintroduce Psionic combat to 3.5, with a lot of adjustments. It does slow the game down for nonpsionic characters, though (In essence, each round has a Mindscape combat phase, and then the regular round, with a character's results in the Mindscape combat phase giving them bonuses against enemies who they beat in Mindscape combat)

Okuno
2011-06-02, 05:12 PM
@ Nero, Glimbur, Seerow, since you're all expressing the same sort of thing, i'll respond at once.

The project I have will have massive cuts to the mage's spell lists. As in, for a rough draft, I'm thinking eliminate the divination and enchantment schools entirely, at least a ton of illusion as well. That'll fit better with my idea of combined arms.

I guess I definitely should have made it clearer in the OP, but I'm not terribly worried about the relative strength of spells&powers or with the content of those spells/powers. The main thing I'm annoyed by and what seems to invalidate psionics is that there is no reason to call psionics "psionics".

Examining the mechanics, the psion might as well be called be called a mana mage. If psionics is supposed to be such a new, alien, and awe-inspiring thing as advertised, why is it more of the same? Wizardry is different from fighting, not just because it does other stuff (spell content), but because the wizard does it with a totally different mechanical apparatus: we have one chapter for combat, another for magic. The chapter of psionics is practically a copy-paste of the magic chapter: it isn't different. I'm hoping to write something chapter length with the word "Psionics" at the top that looks totally different from both Magic (the current bleh) and Combat.

I suppose a niche technically is about content more than mechanics, but whatever...

@Squark: Won't have time until tomorrow, but I'll check it out, thanks.

T.G. Oskar
2011-06-02, 05:27 PM
Well, for starters, there's Psionic Focus. Anyone who has a degree of psionic power (aka having a power point pool) can enter this state, which either allows you to take 15 on a Concentration check or expend it to do something else. Psionic Focus is meant to be a flash of insight you get, allowing you to deal harder damage or apply metapsionic feats to powers. The latter is a bit silly considering how spellcasters can add metamagic feats without the need of expending a special focus, but in that regard psionics is actually more balanced; you can't have more than two metapsionic feats on a single power, so you run no risk of having a Twinned Split Ray Maximized Empowered Enervation spell coming right at you.

The second is the nifty augmentation feature, which is most of what you call "flexibility during casting". Augmentation wasn't properly exploited until Complete Psionic (or never was properly exploited, depending on whether you confirm the existence of the book or ardently deny it) with the Lurk; by expending power points you could enhance your attacks with stuff ranging from additional sneak attack to actual negative levels. However, the bulk of augmentation relies on psionic powers, which is essentially similar to spellcasting.

I wouldn't worry much about spells and powers being too similar; in fact, the fluff sorta implies they have similarities. By that same line of thought, maneuvers should also lack a niche if only because they behave quite a lot like spells, except that you need a weapon to use them. Psionics, on the other hand, need very little to use except a thought (pretty much literally a thought), so it's like if you had a sorcerer that used mana instead of Vancian casting, that cast all its "spells" Stilled and Silenced (notice there's no Still Power or Silent Power feat?), which gets more power from its manifester level than the powers it learns (because even a 1st level spell properly augmented can beat a 7th-8th level spell) and has some flexibility (choose your energy type, augmentations allowing the power to be cast swifter or affect more than one ally or have an increased DC, for example).

...You could even argue that psionics is really the secret fix to spellcasters. Spellcasters are too powerful; psionics are just fine except for the Spell-to-Power Erudite who's basically a theurge on steroids.

Okuno
2011-06-02, 09:21 PM
I mean, I've played the rules, so I know there are some differences, it's just that I don't think it's different enough. Obviously, that's a matter of taste, but I maintain that taste is a strong creative force. Augmentation is nifty, I'll grant that, and psionic focus balances things some, but those are like the carpet and the paint in a building where I don't like the superstructure. Now that it's mentioned, I like that carpet and paint, but let's hire a good architect. </simile>.


Augmentation wasn't properly exploited until Complete Psionic... with the Lurk; by expending power points you could enhance your attacks with stuff ranging from additional sneak attack to actual negative levels.

Hmm, never really delved into that book. From what you describe it sounds like a system for making bigger numbers. Sarcastic ooh-ahh, if that's accurate. I wonder where my physical CP is...


...You could even argue that psionics is really the secret fix to spellcasters.

Aye, there's the rub! </allusion> Spellcasting has a cool mechanic. Maybe I'll take some heat for the Vancian-haters, but I personally like it. I also love the mechanics from Burning Wheel, but I plan to use a port of those on sorcerers to differentiate them better from wizards. Psionics currently has essentially a copy-catted mechanic.

Psionics is like printing the Mona Lisa on a bathtowel: it's not new enough to stand on its own. I want to make a new masterpiece to add to the D&D collection. </simile> Unfortunately, I'm at a homebrewer's block.


By that same line of thought, maneuvers should also lack a niche if only because they behave quite a lot like spells, except that you need a weapon to use them.
Yeah, and I never got into ToB. I expect the only reason I got into psionics was the nostalgia value. -~-

In any case, I favor building a good ruleset for fighting rather than merging fighting with spells. Rather than merge psionics with spells, I favor a good ruleset. So I've no contradiction, though reasonable assumptions might have lead you to believe otherwise.

ToB was definitely a martial fix, but you still see plenty of fighter fixes because people don't want fighter-replacements. Some strategies have been to look at the class, others looked at feats, but I think a big problem is in the fighting rules themselves: you either full attack, or you've got a build that just trips or just charges, because these tactics always work: it's a game of rock-paper-scissors without the paper. </metaphor>

(Clearly I need to get working on that one-act I thought up tonight. <.<)

EDIT: Of course it's the bathroom where people get ideas <.< I've never played a modern/future rpg, but it occurs to me that the sort of hacking that Ghost in the Shell portrays (everyone has a cybernetic brain, so you can literally remotely hack their eyes, memories, anything) could be an eminent basis for creation. Is there a system that has those sort of hacking rules?

Veklim
2011-06-03, 11:59 AM
Check out spycraft, lots and lots of hacking/espionage stuff like that.

I don't think there's such a big problem with this though. If I were to be REALLY pedantic I could say 'arcane and divine magic aren't different enough' and truly be making exactly the same point as you are here with psionics. I understand the annoyance of looking at something intimately cool and wishing it was more obviously cool than people think, but that's all it is. Other people's perceptions.

Personally, I look at a psion and I see someone who can throw nothing but high level powers, or nothing but low level augmented powers, doesn't need components or focii, doesn't become completely useless with anti-magic or counter-magic going on, and usually has more specialist options AND universal options than a well tooled specialist wizard.

A psion is closer to the concept of living magic than they are to a caster as such. They have a wealth of flavour, a unique set of abilities (some powers are just completely different to any magic spell) and have options which no caster gets anywhere near. As a result, they don't get PrC access in the same way (excepting the ridiculous idea that is cerebremancer) but have so much more in the way of options. A psion/barbarian has none of the problems a wizard/barbarian would for instance.

I see what you're wanting here, and I understand what you're saying, I just think you're wrong! :smallbiggrin:

Epsilon Rose
2011-06-03, 12:45 PM
You might find the hacking rules from the Ghost in the Shell rpg (http://www.serenadawn.com/GhostintheShellRPG.htm) to be of some use.

It also might be worth noting that Green Ronin has an interesting Psychic (not psionic) handbook that has psychic powers as skills. One of the wiki's used to have and srd of it, but I can't seem to find it.

Okuno
2011-06-03, 03:06 PM
I see what you're wanting here, and I understand what you're saying, I just think you're wrong! :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, well, I rather expected that (<.<) (>.>) (^o^)

OTOH, it's not like psionics is uncool. My first thought for a gestalt character in an urban setting was "hmm, I know my casting, I'll take cleric/psion for massive spells and I can wear armor and be discrete". But that's just it, I thought "massive spells" instead of "spells/powers", and it's making me sad (too bad it's not making me SAD, but Vanara is making up for that ^o^)


hacking rules from the Ghost in the Shell rpg (http://www.serenadawn.com/GhostintheShellRPG.htm)
Why did I not just expect this from the start? <.< I appreciate you not giving me lmgtfy.

That's for the tips everyone! Now I've got massive research and experimentation to get on (yar). ^_^;

Owrtho
2011-06-03, 04:05 PM
I feel like it should be pointed out that part of the problem is psionics in fiction basically fill the same niche as magic. Sure there tends to be more of a focus on powers like telepathy & telekinesis, but in the end psionics is really just the sci-fi version of magic. Its what it gets called when some pseudo-scientific explanation wants to be used to explain the powers without having to resort to just calling it magic. This does usually mean that the power is self contained by the individual, but that also is true of many versions of magic.
As for differing mechanics, there is really only so much you can do there. in the end an ability to set something on fire will likely read deal xdy fire damage, and when it comes down to it, if a good way of handling a specific effect has already been found, there very well may not be a good reason to make up a new way to do it (hence why many powers will refer to being like x spell).

That said, there isn't really anything wrong with what you're trying to do, and new variations of systems can always be nice.

Owrtho