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View Full Version : autism; 3.5 charecter flaw, dos this work?



Dalek Zek
2011-06-02, 11:08 PM
I’d like to know if people think if this would work as a character flaw ore not.


flaw : autism

Your intelligence (the ability to take something in, process it and arrive ad a conclusion) is increased. Your extelligence (the ability to understand something that lies outside of you and the ability to interact with that) however is reduced even more so.

penalty : -6 cha. Whatever other modifeirs, your Cha. cannot be higher than 6. If you spend more then 6 ours of active interaction with people out of your known circle (Manley the other adventures in your party), you need 10% more sleep to gain al the benefits of normal sleep. (fore instants, if you’re an elf you need ½ hour of additional trancing, if you’re a human you need 1 hour more sleep. Autism must be taken ad level one.

Benefit : +2 int., skill focus concentration.

Reluctance
2011-06-02, 11:17 PM
{Scrubbed}

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-02, 11:25 PM
First of all, this isn't a flaw, this is a trait.

Second, I have mild high-functioning autism, and I think I have a bonus to wisdom (I have 20:15 sight and great hearing) but a penalty to sense motive, as well as the intelligence bonus and charisma penalty.

Dalek Zek
2011-06-02, 11:56 PM
This is basically self inspired. The reason fore the spelling mistakes is my dyslexia, witch is known to be linkt to autism. The problem with the spell-check is that it gives you several options about what it thinks you mean and you have to pick one, which dos not always help if you can tell the deferens between about and aboot unless you know it is there. Dyslexia however has nothing to do with intelligence, witch is really just about the internal thoughts. But sins dyslexia would be a another trait I left that out. I do agree that trait fits better than flaw. Autism can occur in many forms and it is possible to make it apply to wisdom ore just to skills, a single from would never count everyone ho has it.
In this I choose fore Int. and Cha. Because of the element of my affliction that can be put in numbers (IQ 125, EQ 60)

Seerow
2011-06-03, 12:09 AM
Autism can be fun in games. In Shadowrun I once played a troll with a homebrewed autism quality. You think trolls are normally hard to deal with with their cha penalties, imagine one that is autistic! I think my troll had like -2 dice to roll on any social test (yeah, not a -2 dicepool modifier, if I tried to talk to somebody I got to roll negative dice), ah the penalties of being an autistic troll. It was fun though.

Anyway, on your trait, it is definitely way too good to be a flaw (Wait you mean as a Wizard I get to take not only +2 intelligence, but also get a feat for it?! And all I lose is more of my dumpstat?). You want to make it a flaw, give just the social penalties. -2 charisma, -2 to all social tests, and the illiteracy quality. Then give a trait that gives you all knowledge skills as class skills, and +1 to all intelligence checks, that requires the autism negative quality. Far more balanced, and more in line with other traits/qualities.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-03, 12:12 AM
Autism can be fun in games. In Shadowrun I once played a troll with a homebrewed autism quality. You think trolls are normally hard to deal with with their cha penalties, imagine one that is autistic! I think my troll had like -2 dice to roll on any social test (yeah, not a -2 dicepool modifier, if I tried to talk to somebody I got to roll negative dice), ah the penalties of being an autistic troll. It was fun though.

Anyway, on your trait, it is definitely way too good to be a flaw (Wait you mean as a Wizard I get to take not only +2 intelligence, but also get a feat for it?! And all I lose is more of my dumpstat?). You want to make it a flaw, give just the social penalties. -2 charisma, -2 to all social tests, and the illiteracy quality. Then give a trait that gives you all knowledge skills as class skills, and +1 to all intelligence checks, that requires the autism negative quality. Far more balanced, and more in line with other traits/qualities.

Why illiteracy?

BillyBobJoe
2011-06-03, 12:13 AM
This could possibly work as a template, but I would have no idea how to do it.

Seerow
2011-06-03, 12:16 AM
Why illiteracy?

To represent the dyslexia that is clearly associated with autism. Maybe that one was a step too far and should be a separate flaw.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-03, 12:17 AM
This could possibly work as a template, but I would have no idea how to do it.

The one difference I find between templates and traits are that templates change your physical appearance and that templates give you things like flight. This doesn't change appearance or give special abilities.

Edit.
To represent the dyslexia that is clearly associated with autism. Maybe that one was a step too far and should be a separate flaw.
It should be. The two are not intertwined.

VanBuren
2011-06-03, 12:33 AM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

There's definitely a way to handle this subject maturely.

But yeah, it's a dangerous place.

Reluctance
2011-06-03, 12:49 AM
If you're looking to model yourself, I usually recommend using existing mechanics before creating new ones.

First, ask yourself honestly how likely you are to become an adventurer in the first place. The bit about following a routine and the "save or be useless for the day" kinda preclude that. (Never mind bad wording. If people are around and need to be interacted with, aren't they watching you at the same time?) People unwilling to deal with the dangerous, messy, chaotic world of adventuring don't become adventurers. You must be at least this high-functioning to play.

Second, a lot of what you're focusing on seems to define crappy Cha, and most likely a Wis in the 8-10 range. Cha 8, maybe the Pathetic flaw to drop it to a 6, and that's a pretty good way of reflecting an aspie. You can then take the points you didn't spend on those stats, and spend them on Int instead.

(You'd get a bit more mileage out of a trait that did something like +1 Concentration, -2 Sense Motive. That seems a lot more balanced and self-contained than your idea. Not to mention that for autism spectrum disorders, a huge Sense Motive hit is a huge part of the definition of the deal. Why you didn't give it a penalty is beyond me.)

Dalek Zek
2011-06-03, 03:48 AM
[QUOTE=Reluctance;11127862]If you're looking to model yourself, I usually recommend using existing mechanics before creating new ones.

First, ask yourself honestly how likely you are to become an adventurer in the first place. The bit about following a routine and the "save or be useless for the day" kinda preclude that. (Never mind bad wording. If people are around and need to be interacted with, aren't they watching you at the same time?)

This is the said point of autism. It's not just that you hafe trouble dealing with people, but also that you hafe trouble dealing with yourself. You need other people, cause you can't handel life on your own, but this also causes more stress.

There are sevaral reasons to go advanturing, like an inabilety to see your own short commings, ore because you cant handel your self in normal life and are wandering without goal already. A small group of people and a clear task (cast certain spels, know things others don't ore offer a pragmatic few) can be verry helpfull. Still, it would cose muts stres, and so you will need more time to sleep.

A good example is Dr. Reed from crimanal minds.

Dalek Zek
2011-06-07, 06:41 AM
I have changed the bonus you get to only the +2 int and skill focus concentration because people seem to find the old one to strong. Also, I have put in that the charisma of an autistic character cannot exceed 6, so to keep the abilities within the realm of abnormality.

Alternative versions people talkt about could be:

Flaw -4 cha. ; Benefit +2 wis. , alertness feat.

Flaw -20 sense motive, -10 diplomacy ; Benefit : skill focus concentration, +8 kill point ad level one and +2 whenever you gain a level, these may only be used fore any two knowledge skills. (the knowledge skill must be chosen ad level one and cannot change throughout the characters life.)

Maybe addition penalties could be added, like the penalty on night rest. I was also thinking about increasing the cha. penalty to -6 and leaving out the bit about night rest ore the inertia, to make it more simple to apply.

Dylaer
2011-06-07, 08:31 AM
Add in "Can always take 10 on a concentration check", and likely "must be Lawful". I'd also say that rather than a Cha penalty, give a flat -4 to all interaction based skills - diplomacy, sense motive, bluff, and so on, but a +2 bonus on all INT based skills.

Dryad
2011-06-07, 08:31 AM
I personally don't see why there has to be an intelligence increase. Don't take this the wrong way, but I've met many autistic people (people autism is a huge spectrum, and a lot of people would be associated with it) and honestly: Increased intelligence doesn't show. Some people with (a form of) autism are more intelligent than others; I honestly don't see anything intelligence-related to autism.

Of course; you have the idiots savant, but... They're really simply incredibly stupid, but have a few 'gifts;' a few subjects in which they are brilliant. Hardly worth an intelligence bonus, though.

Also, I would like to point out that the wisdom stat for things like vision and hearing are not about your physical state of the eyes or ears. Rather, it represents how well you're aware of your surroundings.

All in all, I like the idea of playing a character with autism, but can't it just be a roleplaying quirk?

Dylaer
2011-06-07, 08:39 AM
All in all, I like the idea of playing a character with autism, but can't it just be a roleplaying quirk?

Not really, because autism is diagnosed IRL by an impairment in social interaction and communication skills. Sure, autism is a broad - very broad - spectrum of conditions, but that is their linking factor. My particular design is not actually an accurate representation of autism, but rather an attempt to model a high-function autistic individual in a way that fits into the game framework.

Just so people know, I'm currently training as a teacher's aide, and autism was a specific research project I had to complete.

Dryad
2011-06-07, 08:47 AM
Not really, because autism is diagnosed IRL by an impairment in social interaction and communication skills.
I don't understand your reasoning. Autism in an RPG cannot be 'just a roleplaying quirk' because it was diagnosed IRL? That's really not a reason.
The same would go for...
ADD, ADHD, paranoia, schozophrenia and hairy toes. All of these things exist IRL. That doesn't mean an RPG needs to have a structured system to deal with them; a player can just choose to play the character as she sees fit. In other words: A roleplaying quirk. You really don't need to balance it out by giving it penalties and bonusses.

Welknair
2011-06-07, 08:52 AM
Would Asperger's just be a lesser version of this? Like +1 Intelligence, -1 to social interactions? :smallconfused:

Dylaer
2011-06-07, 06:46 PM
I don't understand your reasoning. Autism in an RPG cannot be 'just a roleplaying quirk' because it was diagnosed IRL? That's really not a reason.
The same would go for...
ADD, ADHD, paranoia, schozophrenia and hairy toes. All of these things exist IRL. That doesn't mean an RPG needs to have a structured system to deal with them; a player can just choose to play the character as she sees fit. In other words: A roleplaying quirk. You really don't need to balance it out by giving it penalties and bonusses.

But the social traits of autism can easily mechanically defined, at least in the sense of a general view. It has a definite effect on social development, and impaired social skills, while yes, could be just a roleplaying quirk, there'd be no point if they weren't shown mechanically. After all, what's the point of saying "my character is bad at X" without that actually being shown?

@Welknair - That's a possible way of doing it, yep. It's just that it's hard to do accurately, so there's always going to be different ways to do it, just as there are differences between it's manifestation in an individual.

Ozymandias
2011-06-07, 10:05 PM
While the relationship between autism and mental retardation has been overrepresented in research, largely due to the weakness of "intelligence tests" (which in turn is largely due, in my opinion, to the vagueness of the term, even in psychology), the position that autism is associated with higher intelligence, causally or otherwise, is essentially indefensible. This does not mean, of course, that people with autism cannot be intelligent, or indeed brilliant, as this is clearly not the case.

On a more gameplay level, it's not really a flaw if you get some benefit out of it. I think the +Concentration, -Sense Motive is a good trait, though. Or a penalty to social checks as a flaw.

In any case, I would question the utility of creating a flaw in the first place - it seems like it would be easier and more expedient to just ad-hoc an individual character concept; most of the symptoms of autism are behavioral anyway.


But the social traits of autism can easily mechanically defined, at least in the sense of a general view. It has a definite effect on social development, and impaired social skills, while yes, could be just a roleplaying quirk, there'd be no point if they weren't shown mechanically. After all, what's the point of saying "my character is bad at X" without that actually being shown?

Well, the disorder dictates the behavior, and the behavior dictates what happens. So an inability to follow decorum could get you thrown in a dungeon (or whatever). If you roll Diplomacy or Bluff for everything, just give the character a low Charisma, which affixes a mechanical explanation for the consequence of the character's behavior - which is what stats are supposed to do, anyway. This means no autistic savant bard piano prodigies, though, so that's a loss. So in my opinion the template is probably unnecessary.

Debihuman
2011-06-08, 10:37 AM
Let's consider that autism is really a social disorder. From Wikipedia: "Autism is a disorder of neural development characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior."

The restricted and repetitive behavior is something that goes beyond what a flaw does. That would be between the GM and the Player or simply the Player's choice.

Now, impaired social interaction and communication are things that can be judged in game. Unfortunately, this is a very broad spectrum. At worst, the individual is unable to speak and takes a -10 to all Charisma based skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device). That's pretty nasty and makes for a rather unplayable character. At best, the character takes a -2 penalty to Diplomacy checks.

Within those extremes are an enormous range of abilities/disabilities. I'm fairly sure that I wouldn't want to try to evaluate a PC along those lines and yet that is what such a flaw would do.

Debby

Nerd-o-rama
2011-06-08, 10:59 AM
Flaw: Social Disorder
Description: The character is afflicted with one of a spectrum of neural disorders that affects their ability to read and follow social cues.
Effect: -2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive.

Bam.

Balanced, not game-altering, not overly specific, and covers the basics of a wide range of social disorders. The feat it grants can be spent on a feat that enhances particular Int-based skills, or metamagic, or whatever, to represent the increased academic and intellectual inclinations found in many people diagnosed with autism. If you want to add more or more severe symptoms, taking a second flaw like Curious or Gullible or (ugh, this name) Pathetic or a trait like Absent-Minded, Detached, or Specialized would fit the bill for many things.

A flaw or trait that gives a higher penalty that -3 or so, or starts altering base ability scores by more than 2, is way beyond the scope of your normal trait/feat/flaw. If you want a concept that isn't fairly "high-functioning" (though I kind of loathe that term, it's at least a common reference point for "not particularly debilitating conditions"), it's probably best to build the whole character around it, starting with your ability score selections.

Dalek Zek
2011-06-09, 11:06 AM
I have altered the description again. I hope that this is a simpler description. I kept it close to my own kind of autism, but you could spend all day making alternative forms because of the broad spectrum autism presents it self. This form is like a idiot savant minor (basically: strongly reduced idiot genius) form, also because this can easily be described by numbers. I kept it running on abilities, cause autism a genetic disorder that in its simplest form means the brain cannot form connections that appear naturally by others reducing your skills and not a lack of training them.

If you want further penalties, maybe sense motive and diplomacy can always be cross class skills?

Quote : Would Asperser’s just be a lesser version of this? Like +1 Intelligence, -1 to social interactions?

With asperser’s I would say the penalty’s are halved, and the benefits as well. (-3 cha., +1 int., +2 bonus on concentration, 10% extra sleep fore each ten hours of interaction.)

Quote : Flaw: Social Disorder
Description: The character is afflicted with one of a spectrum of neural disorders that affects their ability to read and follow social cues.
Effect: -2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive.

The problem with this is that it can be easily comprised with high training. The penalty on is not something that can be traint away, especially with the adding that your cha. cannot be higher then 6. (note that this also applies to magical increases like cloak of charisma.) This way ad the least, you will always have to play having a very weak social mind.

Lord_Gareth
2011-06-09, 01:50 PM
As an Aspie kid, I'd honestly say that the degree to which it affects you depends greatly on A. how you were raised and B. your attitude towards your diagnosis. I didn't have a diagnosis until I was, like, in high school and by then I'd lived by whole life more or less dealing with it, and now I'm one of the most sociable people in my circle of friends.

Mind, I still cram my foot into my mouth and gnaw upon the ankle on a regular basis, but that's what the -2 penalty to Diplomacy is for.

Ashtagon
2011-06-09, 04:50 PM
Flaw: Social Disorder
Description: The character is afflicted with one of a spectrum of neural disorders that affects their ability to read and follow social cues.
Effect: -2 to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive.

This is definitely the way to go with autism and related issues as a flaw. Seeing as how these are skills that will almost always be covered by a different member of the party if there is any kind of group at all (unlike, say Spot or Climb, which every character would need to be decent at for the group to work), a -4 penalty may even be justifiable. A flaw is meant to be twice the size of an equivalent feat, and while this does cover twice as many skills as the usual skill bonus feat, these are all of a set that see marginal use in the average dungeon crawl.

To the op: I appreciate that English may not be your first language, and you may even suffer from dyslexia. However, that doesn't change the fact that the spelling is creating a significant barrier to understanding your posts at all. These are explanations for why there may be difficulties, but they are not excuses not to try.

Dryad
2011-06-10, 06:51 AM
A friend of mine has asperger's. He's as endearing as anybody! Sure he can be awkward at times, but nothing that warrants a penalty to charisma, because.. Well; it's kind of cute, too. It's just a part of him, and some people will dislike him while other people will love him.

He's not flawed; just... Socially different.
Now; if you're adressing to people going Rainman, thén you're talking about a flaw.
But... The way I understand it is this: A flaw gets you a feat. Right? It gets you something in return? Well; I don't know about that.. People who have mental, psychological or physical handicaps of any kind never got anything in return. It's not like you can just go to the hospital, and sell your right arm for better computing skills, for instance.

Nerd-o-rama
2011-06-10, 01:55 PM
The problem with this is that it can be easily comprised with high training. The penalty on is not something that can be traint away, especially with the adding that your cha. cannot be higher then 6. (note that this also applies to magical increases like cloak of charisma.) This way ad the least, you will always have to play having a very weak social mind.

See, the thing is a) that's a ridiculously restrictive restriction by the rules, b) with point-buy stat systems you can easily give yourself a 6 Cha and just not wear a cloak of charisma to represent this kind of severe handicap, and c) with the way D&D skill ranks work, if you have a penalty, you will always have that penalty. No matter how hard someone with the flaw I proposed trains, they will always be two points behind someone else in that skill who puts in the same amount of effort, assuming equal Charisma (and you shouldn't, because as I said, it's easy enough just to not have high Charisma).


This is definitely the way to go with autism and related issues as a flaw. Seeing as how these are skills that will almost always be covered by a different member of the party if there is any kind of group at all (unlike, say Spot or Climb, which every character would need to be decent at for the group to work), a -4 penalty may even be justifiable. A flaw is meant to be twice the size of an equivalent feat, and while this does cover twice as many skills as the usual skill bonus feat, these are all of a set that see marginal use in the average dungeon crawl.

I was thinking the same thing after I posted, since only Sense Motive there is really useful to every character. Maybe a -3 as a compromise?


But... The way I understand it is this: A flaw gets you a feat. Right? It gets you something in return? Well; I don't know about that.. People who have mental, psychological or physical handicaps of any kind never got anything in return. It's not like you can just go to the hospital, and sell your right arm for better computing skills, for instance.

Unfortunately, we don't live in a magical land of elves. Or the Cyberpunk RPG, where that specific example is both possible and encouraged.

More seriously, we're discussing game mechanical effects. It's perfectly possible to play a character with some kind of social handicap just through roleplay and acting. Indeed, this is almost certainly the way to go, and I don't really endorse the idea of this feat, I just saw some rules to play around with and comment on.

But if you want this to be a game mechanic, which the OP does, it should follow the rules and guidelines for the kind of game mechanic it is.