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View Full Version : Jack Kevorkian grabbed the wrong pill bottle



polity4life
2011-06-03, 08:01 AM
The Detroit Free Press (http://www.freep.com/article/20110603/NEWS01/110603016/Assisted-suicide-advocate-Jack-Kevorkian-dies?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|FRONTPAGE) reported today that Dr. Jack Kevorkian, otherwise known as "Dr. Death" passed away today. For those who don't know Dr. Kevorkian, he spear headed the ethics debate on human euthenasia.

He was certainly a polarizing figure and many were loathe to support his point of view on death. However, he did expose some realities about the state of being of those with terminal conditions. Perhaps there is a discussion to be had here if we can keep it civil and respect the rules of the forums.

DraPrime
2011-06-03, 08:05 AM
Well, can't say that I agree with what he did. Still, may he rest in peace, and may his loved ones be comforted.

Serpentine
2011-06-03, 08:15 AM
Man, there's a lot of "Doctor Deaths". I thought this was one of the others.
Hrm. From the Wiki it sounds like, at the very least, he was pretty damn dodgy... Although that's apparently debated.

Lord Raziere
2011-06-03, 08:21 AM
Am I bad human being for merely reflecting on how ironic this is? Or am I bad human being for trying to apply irony at all because all people die?

bluewind95
2011-06-03, 08:22 AM
I watched the movie about him.

May he rest in peace.

Asta Kask
2011-06-03, 08:23 AM
Am I bad human being for merely reflecting on how ironic this is? Or am I bad human being for trying to apply irony at all because all people die?

Death is the one final certainty.

Serpentine
2011-06-03, 08:23 AM
Am I bad human being for merely reflecting on how ironic this is? Or am I bad human being for trying to apply irony at all because all people die?I... don't think it's terribly ironic just for a person who killed people to die. Most people do, eventually.

Lord Raziere
2011-06-03, 08:25 AM
I... don't think it's terribly ironic just for a person who killed people to die. Most people do, eventually.

darn it, oh well. I don't know what made me think this was ironic.

Serpentine
2011-06-03, 08:27 AM
If he, I dunno, tried to demonstrate his "Suicide Machine" and accidently had it work so he got killed by it when he didn't mean to die, then maybe you might have some irony.

polity4life
2011-06-03, 08:32 AM
From what I've read of you Dragonprime, I completely understand your disagreeing with Dr. Kevorkian's practices.

I happen to agree with him, in principle, and I'll argue that point citing both the knowledge I've gleaned from my profession and anecdotal evidence of my grandmother's passing.

Concerning the former, I work in epidemiology but more specifically I work with claims data. I see the costs associated with what the health care industry terms the, "end of life" phase of an individual. From the most impartial, heartless vantage point, treatment of terminal conditions are a fantastic resource burden upon providers (hospitals, physicians, etc.), payers (insurers), and patients (including the family of the patient). Those costs are visited upon providers and payers are then spread to everyone healthy; providers will gladly treat the terminally ill for as long as the payer allows as they obtain their fees from services rendered and payers disperse that cost across their subscriber population. Again, this point of view is pretty disgusting but it brings to light many existing and potential issues and externalities brought about by refusing to allow a terminally ill individual to depart on their terms.

Concerning the latter, my grandmother passed away this February. She was 94, married 64 years to my still-living grandfather. She was battling emphysema though she never smoked a day in her life, though a massive brain hemorrhage is what caused her death. For about four weeks after the event, she was little more than a breathing, mumbling mass. It was painful for everyone to watch. I visited her three times and after I left the hospital the first time I was moved to tears for two reasons. First, I knew she was not leaving that place alive. Second, I questioned why we are forcing her to linger when recovery was not an option. I could see how Dr. Kevorkian's services, if administered properly, would have value for my family at that time.

ghost_warlock
2011-06-03, 08:35 AM
Requiescat in pace, Dr. Kevorkian. It brings me peace to hear that your final moments were painless - a fate so few of us are blessed with.

polity4life
2011-06-03, 08:35 AM
Am I bad human being for merely reflecting on how ironic this is? Or am I bad human being for trying to apply irony at all because all people die?

I think it's just a coincidence in this case.

Serpentine
2011-06-03, 08:49 AM
I think it's just a coincidence in this case.Yeah, who could've guessed the guy would eventually die of natural causes.
:smallconfused:

LaZodiac
2011-06-03, 08:52 AM
I think it is ironic. "Grabbed the wrong pill bottle" would be a great cover for suicide. All he would have to say is that the paitent reached for his medicene, and before he noticed he had already taken it and died from a horrible reaction. So it's kinda ironic.

Also, I really thought he was already dead.

grimbold
2011-06-03, 08:54 AM
wait a minute
my math teacher's last name is kevorkian :smalleek:

polity4life
2011-06-03, 08:55 AM
I think it is ironic. "Grabbed the wrong pill bottle" would be a great cover for suicide. All he would have to say is that the paitent reached for his medicene, and before he noticed he had already taken it and died from a horrible reaction. So it's kinda ironic.

Also, I really thought he was already dead.

Well if he actually did grab the wrong pill bottle then I think we have an instance of irony. Alas, I'm just being a jerk and making light of his death with the title.

Serpentine
2011-06-03, 08:56 AM
I think it is ironic. "Grabbed the wrong pill bottle" would be a great cover for suicide. All he would have to say is that the paitent reached for his medicene, and before he noticed he had already taken it and died from a horrible reaction. So it's kinda ironic.

Also, I really thought he was already dead.If he had done that, it would be. But it was a blood clot.

Oh Polity, and your confusing titles :smalltongue:

LaZodiac
2011-06-03, 08:57 AM
Oh poo. Oh well. It was funny though, so worth it.

Kislath
2011-06-03, 10:22 AM
Well, I think he got a seriously raw deal and was totally screwed over, but most folks were so preoccupied with the whole "oh noes, he's helping people die" part that they completely ignored the legal issues. The REAL irony is that cigarettes are still perfectly legal.

Tirian
2011-06-03, 10:49 AM
Come on guys, telling jokes about the recently deceased is in very questionable taste.

I won't speak on the politics or ethics of Mr. Kervorkian's life mission here. But I think that his contribution to the conversations concerning health and suffering contributed in some measure to a more comprehensive system of medical care. Now his direct contribution to that dialog is over, and I wish him peace and offer my sympathy to those who were close to him.

Maxios
2011-06-03, 11:00 AM
I hope Mr. Kevorkian rests in peace

Zen Monkey
2011-06-03, 11:09 AM
I remember debating this guy back in school, which was (edited) years ago. :smalltongue:

To avoid argument and infraction, I'll just say that he definitely contributed to the discussion about death in our society, and raised some interesting questions. One benefit of free speech and free discussion is that whether you agree with someone or not, their ability to ask difficult questions helps you to reshape or reinforce your own position.

AsteriskAmp
2011-06-03, 11:17 AM
May he rest in peace.
Even though I disagree with his views I do believe some of the points he raised were of transcendence and affected meaningfully a part of how we view health-care today (even if I disagree with most of those points).

Zevox
2011-06-03, 11:33 AM
Huh, so that's why I recall hearing about him as a child - he lived not too far from where I do.

Anyway, my approval or disapproval of his own practices depends on the accuracy of some of the allegations in the "criticism" section of his Wikipedia page, but I'm with him on the larger principle his controversy speaks to, no doubt there. Not sure how much we can say on it though since matters of contested legality like that tend to constitute political discussion.

Zevox

AtlanteanTroll
2011-06-03, 01:15 PM
He was a good man (what he did is debatable). RIP Dr. Kevorkian.

Catch
2011-06-03, 01:57 PM
The title of this thread is in poor taste. The man had chronic kidney problems, liver cancer, and pneumonia - that's cause to commiserate, not crack jokes because of his career. His work was certainly political and controversial (the direction I suspect this discussion is headed) but let's not speak ill of the dead.

arguskos
2011-06-03, 02:07 PM
He was a good man (what he did is debatable). RIP Dr. Kevorkian.
Agreed. My opinions on his work are many... and irrelevant to this thread. He did as he believed was right, and from all appearances, really believed that his work was helping others, and that's what counts.

I hope you find your well-deserved rest, Doctor. See you on the other side, for better or for worse. Farewell.

Kallisti
2011-06-03, 05:04 PM
Fear no more the heat of the sun
Nor the furious Winter's rages
Thou thy worldly task have done
Home are gone and ta'en thy wages

Fear no more the frown of the Great
Thou art past the Tyrant's stroke
Care to more to clothe and eat
To you the reed is as the oak
The scepter, learning, physic, must
All follow this and come to dust

Requiescat in pace, Doctor.

grimbold
2011-06-03, 05:32 PM
beautiful poem kallisti

Solaris
2011-06-03, 05:41 PM
Come on guys, telling jokes about the recently deceased is in very questionable taste.

It is? But... that doesn't make sense. I know, it's a taboo, but why would someone dying change whether or not it's okay to crack jokes about him?

That said, I think this one fell pretty short from being funny. Better luck next time.

pendell
2011-06-03, 05:44 PM
...

Given that I have spent the past week trying to help a friend after a failed suicide attempt, you can guess that I would not be best pleased with one who would have put the counsel of Grima Wormtongue in my friend's ears. The counsel of despair over hope, and the counsel of death over life.

Perhaps the good Professor best expressed it ...




Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death. And only the heathen kings, under the dominion of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.

Come! We are needed. There is much that you can yet do.


Words similar to that I have used with real humans in the real world, fighting death for the lives of my friends, arguing for life instead of death, and hope instead of despair.

As for the man himself, I can only wish for him what I hope he would wish for me were our positions reversed: That he receive mercy and forgiveness. Certainly I need it. I, like him, mean well, but who can truly say whether either of us has done the world a favor?

As to whether he was a good man or not, I am in no position to judge. Presumably he is now united with his patients in death, and now they are all aware of the costs and benefits of their actions. Let them judge the good doctor. *I* shall not.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Kallisti
2011-06-03, 06:22 PM
beautiful poem kallisti

Yes, it is. (Not that I wrote it; it's from Cymbeline, IIRC.)

Destro_Yersul
2011-06-03, 07:57 PM
...

Given that I have spent the past week trying to help a friend after a failed suicide attempt, you can guess that I would not be best pleased with one who would have put the counsel of Grima Wormtongue in my friend's ears. The counsel of despair over hope, and the counsel of death over life.

Perhaps the good Professor best expressed it ...



Words similar to that I have used with real humans in the real world, fighting death for the lives of my friends, arguing for life instead of death, and hope instead of despair.

As for the man himself, I can only wish for him what I hope he would wish for me were our positions reversed: That he receive mercy and forgiveness. Certainly I need it. I, like him, mean well, but who can truly say whether either of us has done the world a favor?

As to whether he was a good man or not, I am in no position to judge. Presumably he is now united with his patients in death, and now they are all aware of the costs and benefits of their actions. Let them judge the good doctor. *I* shall not.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Depends on why your friend wanted to do it, I'd say. From what I understand, Doc Kevorkian didn't help people die just because they wanted to, there had to be a medical reason. He believed he was ending suffering for people who literally didn't have a hope of recovering.

KerfuffleMach2
2011-06-03, 08:59 PM
Huh, so that's why I recall hearing about him as a child - he lived not too far from where I do.

Anyway, my approval or disapproval of his own practices depends on the accuracy of some of the allegations in the "criticism" section of his Wikipedia page, but I'm with him on the larger principle his controversy speaks to, no doubt there. Not sure how much we can say on it though since matters of contested legality like that tend to constitute political discussion.

Zevox

Huh. That means you can't be too far from me. I am within walking distance of Royal Oak. Which is not only the city he worked in, but the city where HBO shot their movie about him. The one where Al Pacino plays Kevorkian.

Anyways, you are right, Destro. He would only help kill people who had some kind of terrible medical condition that wasn't really curable and they were in great pain. And, in all honesty, I agree with him on those points.

Serpentine
2011-06-04, 02:41 AM
Anyway, my approval or disapproval of his own practices depends on the accuracy of some of the allegations in the "criticism" section of his Wikipedia page, but I'm with him on the larger principle his controversy speaks to, no doubt there. Not sure how much we can say on it though since matters of contested legality like that tend to constitute political discussion.Yeah, that.

averagejoe
2011-06-04, 12:42 PM
Come on guys, telling jokes about the recently deceased is in very questionable taste.

The Mod They Call Me: I tend to agree.

I already see a debate brewing. Discussing the ethics of euthanasia will most likely get this thread shut down.

Flame of Anor
2011-06-04, 01:24 PM
Perhaps the good Professor best expressed it ...


Not that I'm taking a side, but it was given to the Numenoreans to choose the hour of their death when their life had reached its end.

JonestheSpy
2011-06-04, 01:53 PM
Not that I'm taking a side, but it was given to the Numenoreans to choose the hour of their death when their life had reached its end.

Yeah, the story of Aragorn and Arwen actually ended with

Aragorn deciding his time had come and going to the crypts to lay down and die, and Arwen begging him to stay longer. Aragorn answered it was much better to die with dignity than to desperately cling to life while falling into doddering weakness and senility.

So while it's just speculation, I suspect Tolkien would have been sympathetic to Kevorkian's views, if not necessarily his methods.

All said and done, I think Kevorkian had a very positive impact on the discussion over end-of-life issues. An ironic-but-fitting legacy, one might say, for a man who said his only regret was not marrying and having children.

Moff Chumley
2011-06-04, 03:42 PM
He was a good, and very brave, man. May he rest in peace.

DraPrime
2011-06-04, 03:57 PM
Not that I'm taking a side, but it was given to the Numenoreans to choose the hour of their death when their life had reached its end.

That however is a privilege given to them. The standards given to them are different from what is given to normal men. Furthermore, it's not quite the same as committing suicide in "despair and pride" as Gandalf puts it. Gandalf speaks of those kings as slaying themselves, which is somewhat different from what Aragorn does. Ultimately, one can find what Tolkien believes easily in his ideology, which would have disagreed quite a bit with Dr. Kevorkian.

JoseB
2011-06-04, 04:06 PM
I come from a medical family in Spain. My father was a doctor, my mother was a nurse, and I know *lots* of doctors and assorted medical professionals from all walks of life.

*Every* single one of them, at some point in their careers, have "hastened" somebody's death on purpose when there was no more hope. Many patients end up asking for it. The doctors talk with them. Finally, taking away "restrictions" with the morphine, sedating them a bit too much... things like that, and death comes soon. My father told me about that, not long before his own death.

Doctors helping terminal patients die: it happens, all the time. Nobody tends to talk about that, because it still is illegal. I guess that Dr. Kevorkian was too "pushy" and flamboyant with his suicide machines and all that; that was what got him some very public trials and jail.

pendell
2011-06-04, 04:49 PM
Yeah, the story of Aragorn and Arwen actually ended with

Aragorn deciding his time had come and going to the crypts to lay down and die, and Arwen begging him to stay longer. Aragorn answered it was much better to die with dignity than to desperately cling to life while falling into doddering weakness and senility.

So while it's just speculation, I suspect Tolkien would have been sympathetic to Kevorkian's views, if not necessarily his methods.

All said and done, I think Kevorkian had a very positive impact on the discussion over end-of-life issues. An ironic-but-fitting legacy, one might say, for a man who said his only regret was not marrying and having children.


Hmm ... I did a quick re-read of the appropriate portion of the appendices.


... at last he felt the approach of old age and knew that the span of his life-days was drawing to an end, long though it had been. Then Aragorn said to Arwen

"At last .. my world is fading. Lo! We have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time of payment draws near. "

Arwen knew well what he intended, nnd long had foreseen it. Nevertheless, she was overborne by her grief. "Would you then, Lord, before your time leave your people that live by your word? "

"Not before my time," he answered, "For if I will not go now, then I must soon go perforce. And Eldarion our son is a man full ripe for kingship."

"... take counsel with yourself , beloved, and ask whether you would indeed have me wait until I wither and fall from the high seat unmanned and witless. Nay, lady, I am the last of the Numenoreans ... and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of middle earth , but also the grace to go at my will, and give back the gift. Therefore will I sleep. "



So, there's a lot happening here.

1) It seems to me that Aragorn, like Terry Pratchett's wizards, knows the expected hour of his death. That's why Pratchett's wizards typically die happily drunk and incidentally owing large sums of money. Aragorn has this same gift of knowing when he is *supposed* to leave the world, and therefore puts his affairs in order.

2) It seems to me that Aragorn is not so much *killing himself* as he is *accepting the fate allotted to him*. Will has a powerful magical effect in middle earth. He can stay longer than his allotted span if he chooses -- and if he does, his body will gradually fail until he dies a gibbering, doddering idiot.

Readers of the Silmarillion know that this desire to stay longer than one's alloted span is one of the chief traps that killed the country of Numenor, and this quest for immortality was not least among the reasons the Nine became the ringwraiths.

So he is *accepting his fate*. Which is a different thing from cutting his own throat or burning himself on a pyre. No, he's at a stage in life where his body will die naturally unless he puts forth his will and holds onto his life by sheer stubbornness.

Denethor is not in that position. His body has many years of productive life left -- and a specific charge to which he is to be faithful. So his suicide is a literal desertion of his post, something for which he would have hung any of his soldiers if they had, out of fear of the ringwraiths, run from the battle.

3) Readers of the Silmarillion know that Fate is a very real thing in middle earth. It is the domain of Mandos, one of the seven Valar, who decree the Dooms of all living, as he is guided by Eru Illuvatar. Thus it is he who sets the times of men's lives in middle earth.

There are then, two ways in which a man can rebel against the Valar. One way is to take his life before his time is up -- and that could prove quite troublesome, when his spirit forsakes his body and goes to the halls of Mandos.

The other -- the trap the Nazgul fell into, and Aragorn avoided -- is to deliberately prolong life beyond the fated time, requiring ever more heroic measures, culminating in black magic and necromancy, the transition from life to undeath.

All of that impinges loosely on real-world concerns, of course. Dunno about the rest of you, but Fate hasn't sent me an e-mail telling me when my time is up. I think his ISP banned him for harassing people or something :)

Respectfully,

Brian P.

grimbold
2011-06-05, 04:23 AM
Yes, it is. (Not that I wrote it; it's from Cymbeline, IIRC.)

oh okay
now i have to go check that out

JonestheSpy
2011-06-06, 02:26 AM
Lots of stuff

Well, I'd say this is one of those interesting examples of how people can react completely differently to the same source material.

To avoid getting into dodgy issues, I'll just say that I think it's a mistake to take the story of Aragorn (and all of LotR, of course) too literally. The fact is, we can't know 'when our time is', nor can we simply choose to die when we think it's right, whether one defines that as an active choice or submission to fate. So my feeling is if we're going to try and take any wisdom form The Professor's writings, we can't get too focused on the specifics of his worldbuilding. What it boils down to seems to me a pretty definitive point of view against artificially prolonging life for it's own sake. And that's what I think Kevorkian was also against, as opposed to just accepting despair as a valid excuse to end one's life, as in the case of Denethor.

Obviously, none of us reading this know the specifics of the tragic-sounding situation you were just dealing with, Pendell. But Kevorkian wasn't dealing with people who had years of productive life left, but rather people who were suffering terribly from terminal, debilitating illnesses who were never going to get better, but still might linger on for quite awhile.