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Rhaegar14
2011-06-07, 01:38 AM
I hear a lot of people mention a Barbarian variant that gives Pounce at level 1, but it's not the UA Totem Barbarian. What book is it in?

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-07, 01:38 AM
Complete Champion. Spirit Lion Totem.

Rhaegar14
2011-06-07, 01:41 AM
Ah. Thanks.

Mr. Zolrane
2011-06-07, 01:43 AM
Yeah, it's basically the first thing you do when building an uber-charger.

ffone
2011-06-07, 01:45 AM
90% of the planet's martial-weapon-proficient humans are from the same tribe. Including those from the continents with no lions. Even most paladins and monks were previously non-Lawful for their own first level (must be teenage rebelliousness).

This also means they were mostly illiterate in their early life. Must be why elves look down on them so.

It's all true.

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-07, 01:46 AM
Not just humans. Apparently that tribe allows all kinds of crazy folks in, from Goliaths to Gnomes.

Maybe they're less a tribe and more like a masonic lodge. Or a union.

The Spirit Lion Totem Union.

ffone
2011-06-07, 01:48 AM
Not just humans. Apparently that tribe allows all kinds of crazy folks in, from Goliaths to Gnomes.

Maybe they're less a tribe and more like a masonic lodge. Or a union.

The Spirit Lion Totem Union.

They like to use Intimidate *on nonunion warriors until they give in and 'take the dip'.

And you know how the warblades likes their "strikes".

* Preferably with Imperious Command and that other feat and a custom +30 mask item and maybe 9 Zhent Fighter levels.

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-07, 01:50 AM
From what I hear, they've moved on a few Clerics that worship War dieties.

Greenish
2011-06-07, 02:33 AM
While UA totems represent various barbarian tribes and cultures, the spiritual totems of CC are of personal nature, as per the respective books.

Hence you can be from a tribe that reveres the wolf as their totem (and your fighting style reflects that) even though you've adopted the mighty lion as your spiritual totem.


Though anthropologists have noticed a strong correlation between having lion as your spiritual totem and starting to whirl when you get angry, they haven't been able to determine whether there's a causal link, and if so, to which direction.

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-07, 03:50 AM
I was worried it was going to be all advice, no joke, but you really stepped it up at the end there. 8/10, greenish.

drakir_nosslin
2011-06-07, 03:56 AM
I love this thread :smallbiggrin:

Just wanted to say that.

Sir Homeslice
2011-06-07, 04:18 AM
Though anthropologists have noticed a strong correlation between having lion as your spiritual totem and starting to whirl when you get angry, they haven't been able to determine whether there's a causal link, and if so, to which direction.

Spinning makes everything better.

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-07, 05:15 AM
Spinning makes everything better.

Sure, except limbs. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AbnormalLimbRotationRange)

Darth Stabber
2011-06-07, 09:07 AM
In my own campaign world the spirit Lion Totem ACF is the default, especially since there are no jaguars on the only continent that has been fully fleshed out. If a player really wanted the extra movement, they could have it as an ACF. Then again I believe that melee can have nice things. Anyone else can have it as a feat (which is on the fighter bonus feat list).

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-07, 03:36 PM
Then again I believe that melee can have nice things. Anyone else can have it as a feat (which is on the fighter bonus feat list).

This is refreshing. After reading thread after thread about DMs who think Pounce is overpowered, this is nice to see.

Lateral
2011-06-07, 03:43 PM
While UA totems represent various barbarian tribes and cultures, the spiritual totems of CC are of personal nature, as per the respective books.

Hence you can be from a tribe that reveres the wolf as their totem (and your fighting style reflects that) even though you've adopted the mighty lion as your spiritual totem.

Though anthropologists have noticed a strong correlation between having lion as your spiritual totem and starting to whirl when you get angry, they haven't been able to determine whether there's a causal link, and if so, to which direction.

I've always wanted to make a Spirit Lion Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian/Totemist with Scorpion's Grasp. Fleshraker Barbarian ahoy! :smalltongue:

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-07, 03:47 PM
I've always wanted to make a Spirit Lion Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian/Totemist with Scorpion's Grasp. Fleshraker Barbarian ahoy! :smalltongue:

Gotta be a Darfellan or similar race. Extra natural attack never hurt anyone. :smalltongue:

Lateral
2011-06-07, 04:14 PM
Gotta be a Darfellan or similar race. Extra natural attack never hurt anyone. :smalltongue:

Or a race that gets poison claw attacks. Now you charge enemies, knock them over, grab them, and inject poison in their face just like a real fleshraker. :smallsmile:

Jade Dragon
2011-06-07, 04:19 PM
Here's what you do for it.

You be a goliath (hopefully with LA buyoff), you go spirit lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian 1/dungeoncrasher fighter 6/something X, you take power attack, knockback, and leap attack, then you power attack for -1 to hit +3 to damage on a full attack, you end your charge adjacent to two or more enemies, and you slam them all into the wall/tree/whatever.

Lateral
2011-06-07, 04:27 PM
Here's what you do for it.

You be a goliath (hopefully with LA buyoff), you go spirit lion totem whirling frenzy barbarian 1/dungeoncrasher fighter 6/something X, you take power attack, knockback, and leap attack, then you power attack for -1 to hit +3 to damage on a full attack, you end your charge adjacent to two or more enemies, and you slam them all into the wall/tree/whatever.

You forgot Shock Trooper. Not only is Heedless Charge insanely powerful here, but Directed Bull Rush is also invaluable to a Dungeoncrasher build.

Jade Dragon
2011-06-07, 04:28 PM
You forgot Shock Trooper. Not only is Heedless Charge insanely powerful here, but Directed Bull Rush is also invaluable to a Dungeoncrasher build.

Oh yeah, I was gonna put shock trooper in there but forgot.

Hirax
2011-06-07, 04:29 PM
Tack on rampaging bull rush to make them be prone. If they're alive.

edit: in fact, I cookie cuttered this very build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11146245#post11146245) for someone the other day. I tacked on dragonborn, though.

Jade Dragon
2011-06-07, 04:32 PM
Also, for my suggestion, tack on combat brute for advancing blows.

Darth Stabber
2011-06-07, 06:14 PM
You may want to take feat rogue2/psywar2 just to be sure you get all these various feats. Costs you 2 bab, but hey you got 4 bonus feats in as many levels.

Rhaegar14
2011-06-07, 06:25 PM
I've already got the feat-rogue 2, along with Barbarian dip 1, Diopsid LA, and Bloodstorm Blade 1. The character is for a Gestalt game, "primary" column is straight Warblade. Bloodstorm Blade is only being taken to fourth level, but the image of a beetle-man dual-wielding greatswords and throwing them thirty feet as melee attacks was too awesome for me to resist.

dgnslyr
2011-06-07, 06:26 PM
Actually, it would only cost 1 BAB, if you use fractional BAB. Why not? After all, melee deserves nice things.

Veyr
2011-06-07, 06:27 PM
Not to mention that Fractional BAB/Saves makes sense...

Lateral
2011-06-07, 06:33 PM
Not to mention that Fractional BAB/Saves makes sense...

Bah! We can't just do everything differently now because it...

..."makes sense." (http://www.goblinscomic.com/07042005/) :smalltongue:

Rhaegar14
2011-06-07, 06:35 PM
Bah! We can't just do everything differently now because it...

..."makes sense." (http://www.goblinscomic.com/07042005/) :smalltongue:

You just earned awesome points. Goblins is the best.

Lateral
2011-06-07, 06:39 PM
You just earned awesome points. Goblins is the best.

Woot! *chugs down*

Sweet, sweet awesome points... :smalltongue:

Person_Man
2011-06-07, 07:11 PM
It's worth mentioning that 90% of the Tier 1-3 melee classes have fairly easy access to Pounce and/or free movement. It's only Tier 4-6 classes that need to dip in order to get it, and even the Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger can all get access to it.

Hirax
2011-06-07, 07:16 PM
It's an attractive dip though. Granted you need to take extra rage to get the most out of it, but the bonus to attack rolls, damage, HP or extra attack (regular rage vs. whirling frenzy), etc. make it an attractive regardless of having other sources of pounce.

Mr. Zolrane
2011-06-07, 08:47 PM
In my own campaign world the spirit Lion Totem ACF is the default, especially since there are no jaguars on the only continent that has been fully fleshed out. If a player really wanted the extra movement, they could have it as an ACF. Then again I believe that melee can have nice things. Anyone else can have it as a feat (which is on the fighter bonus feat list).

That's a good idea. Just wondering, are there any prereqs for that feat, as you rule it? Every feat and its brother that involves movement requires Dodge and Mobility as prereqs, so maybe that, if anything?

Lateral
2011-06-07, 08:51 PM
That's a good idea. Just wondering, are there any prereqs for that feat, as you rule it? Every feat and its brother that involves movement requires Dodge and Mobility as prereqs, so maybe that, if anything?

I don't think that's a good idea; those two suck so hard, they're basically feat taxes. Nobody likes feat taxes.

Mr. Zolrane
2011-06-07, 08:57 PM
I don't think that's a good idea; those two suck so hard, they're basically feat taxes. Nobody likes feat taxes.

Dodge isn't too bad if you use the houserule that many people use: it's a general dodge bonus that applies to everything, rather than just the designated target. That's how my group did it anyway, and the Pathfinder guys seem to have had the same idea, as that's how in works by RAW in PF. It's better still if you use any kind of feat retraining rules (I'm told they have some in PHBII; I do not know what they are, but I have my own which may or may not resemble the ones in PHBII), so you can swap it out once it's outlived its usefulness.

But you're right, Mobility is terrible, and I feel no compulsion to defend it.. I wasn't really making a value judgement so much as asking Stabber what prereqs, if any, he used for his pounce feat.

Lateral
2011-06-07, 09:08 PM
Dodge isn't too bad if you use the houserule that many people use: it's a general dodge bonus that applies to everything, rather than just the designated target.

It's still not very good; a +1 bonus to AC is negligible even at mid-levels. When I implement it, I usually make it some sort of scaling bonus so that it doesn't suck at higher levels.

Mr. Zolrane
2011-06-07, 09:42 PM
It's still not very good; a +1 bonus to AC is negligible even at mid-levels. When I implement it, I usually make it some sort of scaling bonus so that it doesn't suck at higher levels.

Oh yeah? How does it scale, as you rule it?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-06-07, 09:52 PM
My guess is +1 AC for every 4 levels to a maximum of +5 AC at level 20

MeeposFire
2011-06-07, 11:40 PM
Essentially pounce and 2 skill points is what makes a barb a tier 4 and a fighter tier 5.

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-08, 01:30 AM
Not to mention d12 hit dice, better skill selection, better class features, a (slightly) scalable source of bonus damage, better access to useful prestige classes...

Barbarian is superior in every way, except bonus feats, which is all the Fighter gets.

Oh, I'm sorry: you can only get Greater Weapon Specialization as a Fighter.

But you should still probably dip Barbarian.

MeeposFire
2011-06-08, 01:35 AM
Not to mention d12 hit dice, better skill selection, better class features, a (slightly) scalable source of bonus damage, better access to useful prestige classes...

Barbarian is superior in every way, except bonus feats, which is all the Fighter gets.

Oh, I'm sorry: you can only get Greater Weapon Specialization as a Fighter.

But you should still probably dip Barbarian.

Actually if you think it through you can pick up essentially the entire barbarian class with feats. If they are not fighter bonus feats the amount of general feats you save by going fighter makes up for the few non-fighter feats you need to mimic the barbarian. Also I mentioned skills as being one of two things that the fighter can't really mimic.

Greenish
2011-06-08, 01:41 AM
Actually if you think it through you can pick up essentially the entire barbarian class with feats.Except for Pounce*, Rage, Trapfinding and skill list/points.

So, uh, you can pick up poor DR and Uncanny Dodge as feats, woohoo.


*Yes, there're a few feats that can get a very limited Pounce, some of which require Rage. Spirit Lion totem has them all beat.

MeeposFire
2011-06-08, 01:45 AM
Except for Pounce*, Rage, Trapfinding and skill list/points.

So, uh, you can pick up poor DR and Uncanny Dodge as feats, woohoo.


*Yes, there're a few feats that can get a very limited Pounce, some of which require Rage. Spirit Lion totem has them all beat.

Funny I already said except for skills and pounce a fighter can copy the barbarian class effectively. So if you are going to say I am wrong you can't say pounce or skills since I already mentioned those. Also a fighter can pick up trap finding using feats so that one does not count (not that it would be worth it really with my bad skill points).

Greenish
2011-06-08, 01:47 AM
Funny I already said except for skills and pounce a fighter can copy the barbarian class effectively.There's no feat to gain Rage, and discounting those, well, there isn't anything to copy.

And yeah, I forgot the trapfinding, though fighter would be hard pressed to get the ranks in Know (Planes).


[Edit]: So you're saying that a fighter can copy everything barbarian does except the strong/useful things? :smalltongue:

MeeposFire
2011-06-08, 01:52 AM
There's no feat to gain Rage, and discounting those, well, there isn't anything to copy.

And yeah, I forgot the trapfinding, though fighter would be hard pressed to get the ranks in Know (Planes).


[Edit]: So you're saying that a fighter can copy everything barbarian does except the strong/useful things? :smalltongue:

The bonuses from rage can be essentially equaled via feats. The weapon mastery line isn't the best but it essentially will equal the rage line especially if you start adding the other feats in.

Greenish
2011-06-08, 01:56 AM
The bonuses from rage can be essentially equaled via feats. The weapon mastery line isn't the best but it essentially will equal the rage line especially if you start adding the other feats in.Uh, huh. :smallconfused:

So fighter can copy barbarian in that they both can walk up to an enemy and hit it? So if you discount all barbarian class features, fighters can copy what's left?


Okay, so what feat allows fighters to intimidate as immediate action or grow larger or get an extra attack?

Hirax
2011-06-08, 01:59 AM
Yeah, I'm not buying the fighter can equal barbarian argument at all. You're hard pressed to find a better 1 level dip for a melee character if they can afford it. Though ToB classes are very dip friendly, so they're solid contenders in that category as well.

Greenish
2011-06-08, 02:08 AM
Yeah, I'm not buying the fighter can equal barbarian argument at all. You're hard pressed to find a better 1 level dip for a melee character if they can afford it.Well, fighter makes for excellent dip too, with ACF stacking. Say, Hit and Run Tactics Exoticist for Dex to damage vs. flat-footed, initiative bonus, proficiencies in four exotic weapons and a bonus feat.

Hirax
2011-06-08, 02:17 AM
Oops, leave it me to leave out the obvious since we were talking about them.

Darth Stabber
2011-06-08, 09:26 AM
That's a good idea. Just wondering, are there any prereqs for that feat, as you rule it? Every feat and its brother that involves movement requires Dodge and Mobility as prereqs, so maybe that, if anything?

Requirements: BAB +1, Jump 1 rank.

The original requirement was BAB +6, but that holds back TWFers and Totemists (and will not stand for Totemists getting the short end of a house rule)

Dodge is such a stinky feat, and mobility is little better. My players tend to favor casters (they like having nice things), which is the main reason I actually got over my aversion to ToB, and made melee a friendlier option for access to pounce (if nothing else it helps lawful types avoid their "time in the wild").

Amphetryon
2011-06-08, 09:32 AM
Funny I already said except for skills and pounce a fighter can copy the barbarian class effectively. So if you are going to say I am wrong you can't say pounce or skills since I already mentioned those. Also a fighter can pick up trap finding using feats so that one does not count (not that it would be worth it really with my bad skill points).
Emphasis mine.

I'd love to see that build. :smallsmile:

Darth Stabber
2011-06-08, 10:02 AM
Yeah, I'm not buying the fighter can equal barbarian argument at all. You're hard pressed to find a better 1 level dip for a melee character if they can afford it. Though ToB classes are very dip friendly, so they're solid contenders in that category as well.

Melee classes in general tend to exist as dip anyway. Look at the builds that are floating around on all the various boards. Paladin, Fighter, Monk, Swashbuckler, and Barbarian are commonly seen in 1-2 lvl doses all over the place. It is rather misleading to say that ToB classes are dip friendly, since most melee classes are frontloaded and taken in 1-2 level increments. It is more accurate to say that ToB classes are continued progression friendly, since most of their brothers in arms are not.

Mr. Zolrane
2011-06-08, 12:24 PM
Requirements: BAB +1, Jump 1 rank.

The original requirement was BAB +6, but that holds back TWFers and Totemists (and will not stand for Totemists getting the short end of a house rule)

Dodge is such a stinky feat, and mobility is little better. My players tend to favor casters (they like having nice things), which is the main reason I actually got over my aversion to ToB, and made melee a friendlier option for access to pounce (if nothing else it helps lawful types avoid their "time in the wild").

Yeah, I was thinking BAB +6 myself, but I know what you mean about the TWFers. I actually know exactly jack about Totemists; would you mind elaborating on that a bit?

Would you Dodge is decent if you houserule it be scalable, as someone else described above? I ask, because you're clearly much more experienced than me, and I'm trying to learn as much as possible before I DM for the first time this fall.

Greenish
2011-06-08, 12:27 PM
I actually know exactly jack about Totemists; would you mind elaborating on that a bit?Totemists get several attacks, too, via natural weapons.

They do have access to pounce in-class though, but that eats a chakra bind.

Darth Stabber
2011-06-08, 12:49 PM
Totemists get several attacks, too, via natural weapons.

They do have access to pounce in-class though, but that eats a chakra bind.

5 attacks on a full attack at lvl 2 is neither uncommon nor difficult with that class, but you have to wait until 6 for pounce. Mostly a matter of quality over quantity though. The big upside is that you can choose different class features everyday, and tweek the ones you picked on the fly (as a swift action).

Mr. Zolrane
2011-06-08, 12:50 PM
5 attacks on a full attack at lvl 2 is neither uncommon nor difficult with that class, but you have to wait until 6 for pounce. Mostly a matter of quality over quantity though. The big upside is that you can choose different class features everyday, and tweek the ones you picked on the fly (as a swift action).

That sounds pretty cool. What book is it from?

Greenish
2011-06-08, 12:51 PM
That sounds pretty cool. What book is it from?Magic of Incarnum.

Mr. Zolrane
2011-06-08, 12:58 PM
Magic of Incarnum.

Ah, cool. Thank you much.

Veyr
2011-06-08, 01:03 PM
Standard note on Magic of Incarnum: while the system is excellent and really quite elegant, the writing and organization of the book cannot be said to be anything but poor. It can be very difficult to get a handle on what, exactly, the various Meldshaping classes can do, and how the details of Incarnum work.

Primary notes (almost as important as "thou shalt not spend more Power Points than thy Manifester Level") is that Soulmelds have two distinct states: Shaped, where you just gain their basic benefit, but it does not take up a magic item slot, and Bound, where you gain more impressive benefits but it does take up on a magic item slot.

Further, each Meldshaper has access to all Soulmelds on his list from level 1, but can only Bind a certain number of them and then only to the Chakras he has already opened. Thus, rather than getting new, more powerful Soulmelds as you level, you instead open new, more powerful Chakras, which allow the Soulmelds you've always had to become more powerful.

Also, the Essentia Capacity of any given Soulmeld depends on your Character Level, not class level or any other such thing. As such, it's listed at the introduction to the Incarnum Classes chapter, and nowhere in the Incarnum/Meldshaping rules chapter (see what I said about it being poorly organized?).

Lateral
2011-06-08, 03:51 PM
It really is a great system. Lots of fun, not too complex, and well-balanced. Probably easily PF-compatible, too. Like I said, Spirit Lion Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1 plus Totemist levels plus Scorpion's Grasp and Knock-Down equals Fleshraker Barbarian. :smalltongue:

Mr. Zolrane
2011-06-08, 06:25 PM
Probably easily PF-compatible, too.

That's certainly good to hear. On a somewhat similar note, do you know of anyone who has done the work of updating the Warlock for PF?

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-08, 06:56 PM
That's certainly good to hear. On a somewhat similar note, do you know of anyone who has done the work of updating the Warlock for PF?

Due to possible copyright problems with Warlock NOT being OGL content, non-existant. And always will be.

Mr. Zolrane
2011-06-08, 07:14 PM
Due to possible copyright problems with Warlock NOT being OGL content, non-existant. And always will be.

Oh, I know that (which is kinda dumb, I mean, it's a warlock, not a Dragonborn Tibbit Weredisplacer-beast pseudonatural Ruby Knight Vindicator), but I was just wondering if anyone's homebrewed that jank at the time of this writing.

Cog
2011-06-08, 07:20 PM
Hm. You could probably get away with writing a patch; a list of changes that would need to be made to the class but which doesn't contain enough content to actually recreate the class and make a playable character.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-08, 07:28 PM
I'm not sure if you can copyright the invocation mechanic of 'gain limited number of SLA's which are of unlimited use'... but they'd pretty much have to come up with an entirely different invocation lineup.

Veyr
2011-06-08, 07:38 PM
Realistically, the concept of an "at-will SLA user" is not copyrightable, nor is the name "warlock", so it could be done legally. I think, however, that it would be a violation of the OGL to do so, which means that Paizo would have to give up the use of some other things it has (which would be copyright violations if not for the OGL) in order to do so.

That's pretty much what the OGL is: "Agree not to use these things we can't legally copyright, and we'll let you use some of the stuff we can."

Lateral
2011-06-08, 08:07 PM
That's certainly good to hear. On a somewhat similar note, do you know of anyone who has done the work of updating the Warlock for PF?

Not that I know of, but porting stuff to PF from 3.5 is way easier than it is to do to, say, 4e or GURPS, even if it's not fully compatible. It's about the right power level, too, and a lot of invocations are just spells, so you can probably just get Complete Arcane and patch anything that's been changed fairly quickly.

IthroZada
2011-06-08, 08:30 PM
Honestly, any of the homebrews that move the Warlock up to Tier 3 will do just fine ported over to Pathfinder. And I would consider using some of those homebrews even without Pathfinder.

Mr. Zolrane
2011-06-08, 09:16 PM
Not that I know of, but porting stuff to PF from 3.5 is way easier than it is to do to, say, 4e or GURPS, even if it's not fully compatible. It's about the right power level, too, and a lot of invocations are just spells, so you can probably just get Complete Arcane and patch anything that's been changed fairly quickly.

I'm actually thinking of getting a thread together to convert anything worth converting from Complete Arcane to PF. With the new Magus class, Warmages are probably all but obsolete (please inform me if this is a stupid statement, as I'm far from an expert on either class), but there's a bunch of other fun stuff I'd like to see ported. Mostly the Blood Magus. Love the flavor, but to compete in PF it'd need a bump. But yeah, honestly, in an ideal world all classes would be around the Tier 3 power level. On a related note, does anyone know if there's a tier list for PF? I haven't been able to find one if it exists.


Honestly, any of the homebrews that move the Warlock up to Tier 3 will do just fine ported over to Pathfinder. And I would consider using some of those homebrews even without Pathfinder.

Mind elaborating? That sounds yummy.

IthroZada
2011-06-08, 09:28 PM
Mind elaborating? That sounds yummy.

I personally like this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72783) Well, except for it's weird fort save progression. I think the extra invocations known, and throw in the invocations from that other invocation class, and it works out well. There might be better ones, but I haven't actively looked.

Lateral
2011-06-08, 09:41 PM
I'm actually thinking of getting a thread together to convert anything worth converting from Complete Arcane to PF. With the new Magus class, Warmages are probably all but obsolete (please inform me if this is a stupid statement, as I'm far from an expert on either class), but there's a bunch of other fun stuff I'd like to see ported. Mostly the Blood Magus. Love the flavor, but to compete in PF it'd need a bump. But yeah, honestly, in an ideal world all classes would be around the Tier 3 power level.
Warmages were obsolete when they were printed. A straight sorcerer focused on blast spells kicks their ass five ways to Toledo.


On a related note, does anyone know if there's a tier list for PF? I haven't been able to find one if it exists.
Nothing official, but it's not too hard.

Barbarian gets some buffs and a couple hits; nothing changes. Note, though, that the lack of Spirit Lion Totem is a major, MAJOR stealth hit to them.
Bard gets nerfed heavily with their bardic music duration, but they still stay tier 3.
Clerics are clerics are clerics. Tier 1.
Druid wildshape got heavy nerfs. Still, it's a full caster with good class features- it's still a bear riding a bear shooting bears, but that first bear is weaker than other bears. Tier 1.
Fighters are still on the very high end of tier 5, but even more so- pretty much right below the line.
Monk got minor buffs, at best. WHAT WAS PAIZO THINKING?! Tier 5.
Paladin moves up to tier 4, it was already close to the line.
Ranger got slightly buffed, but not enough to make a real difference. Tier 4.
Rogue got some serious buffs. Either still tier 4, but very high, or tier 3- it's pretty close.
Sorcerer got heavy buffs, but it's not a tier one. Still tier 2, but less stupidly designed.
A wizard is a wizard is a freaking wizard, okay? Tier 1.
Summoners are pretty smack-dab in tier 3. Good one, Paizo.
If the Witch's spell list gets stuff in future supplements, tier 2 or 1, otherwise probably 3.
Psions are pretty much the same, with minor buffs and nerfs, and that makes me happy. Tier 2.
Ditto for Psychic Warriors. Tier 3.
Artificer and Student Wilders are probably tier 3 or something- they definitely are better than the crappy WotC one (yay!). The others are just as bad (boo!).
Soulknives got a huge, huge overhaul, and that makes me happy. PF knew what they were doing when it came to psionics, man. High tier 4.

Veyr
2011-06-08, 09:52 PM
Rogue got some serious buffs. Either still tier 4, but very high, or tier 3- it's pretty close.
And some serious nerfs in terms of changes to qualifying for Sneak Attack. Probably a net-win overall, but some of those changes were just mean-spirited IMO. A lot of my problems with Paizo as a designer come not so much from what they did to the Rogue so much as how they thought about it: they seriously thought that it was necessary to limit the Rogue's ability to get a Full Sneak Attack off.


Artificer and Student Wilders are probably tier 3 or something- they definitely are better than the crappy WotC one (yay!). The others are just as bad (boo!).
There's an official PF Artificer? The only one I've seen is third-party, and possibly even more broken than the 3.5 version (of which it's almost a direct port, except the stupid-broken Weird Science replaces Infusions).


Soulknives got a huge, huge overhaul, and that makes me happy. PF knew what they were doing when it came to psionics, man. High tier 4.
You mean they knew they didn't know what they were doing (they were seriously talking about switching Psionics to Vancian at one point), and hired the Dreamscarred Press guys to do it, because those guys know Psionics better than just about anyone else.

Lateral
2011-06-08, 10:02 PM
And some serious nerfs in terms of changes to qualifying for Sneak Attack. Probably a net-win overall, but some of those changes were just mean-spirited IMO. A lot of my problems with Paizo as a designer come not so much from what they did to the Rogue so much as how they thought about it: they seriously thought that it was necessary to limit the Rogue's ability to get a Full Sneak Attack off.
Well, yeah, but it's still a massive overall buff.


There's an official PF Artificer? The only one I've seen is third-party, and possibly even more broken than the 3.5 version (of which it's almost a direct port, except the stupid-broken Weird Science replaces Infusions).
No, the artificer wilder is one of the paths (or whatever they called them) for the PF Wilder. It's a little like an artificer, but using wild surge and stuff. It's different. The student wilder is like the educated wilder ACF, but better. The other three suck balls.


You mean they knew they didn't know what they were doing, and hired the Dreamscarred Press guys to do it, because those guys know Psionics better than just about anyone else.
Yeah, pretty much, but there's nothing wrong with that. They were turning it over to the guys who had already proven that they knew how to do psionics better than WotC did; the guy who did most of the XPH is part of Dreamscarred Press. They didn't really consult him for CPsi, and...
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dnd_cwc_20060918_divmind.jpg
...this happened. (WHYYYYY)

Veyr
2011-06-08, 10:10 PM
Yeah, pretty much, but there's nothing wrong with that. They were turning it over to the guys who had already proven that they knew how to do psionics better than WotC did; the guy who did most of the XPH is part of Dreamscarred Press. They didn't really consult him for CPsi, and...
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dnd_cwc_20060918_divmind.jpg
...this happened. (WHYYYYY)
Oh yeah, I completely agree with their choice there, I'm just saying they don't really deserve credit for the product.

MeeposFire
2011-06-08, 10:21 PM
Yea definitely credit where credit is due. Psionics were not done by PF they were done by Dreamscarred PRess and you are told to allow it in PF. Personally DS Press seems to do a better job with mechanics in general than Paizo. Paizo is stuck in early 3.5 thinking...