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Makleveh
2011-06-07, 05:19 PM
Good evening! I am currently working on building a character (a monk, to be specific) who had taken a vow of silence. Before starting his adventuring 'career', he was a teacher of martial arts at his school- teaching solely by example and observation- never by explanation or discourse. Which makes sense, for someone with a vow of silence. I am fine with him using non-verbals to communicate, clapping, stopping, waving, ect, but to get across more abstract concepts, I needed something else. So I decided he'd have tattoos covering his body, and he'd use these to get across more elaborate ideas. I don't want them to be words or phrases, but more along the lines of pictograms or hieroglyphs. For example, a setting sun tattoo could represent 'tomorrow' or even simply 'later'. The problem I'm having is that I'm running short on ideas for these. Anyone have any ideas?

-D

Honest Tiefling
2011-06-07, 05:27 PM
What concepts would he need to get across, but can't?

Tomorrow/Future and Yesterday/Past seem good. Perhaps he has a tattoo of the sun in various positions, which he might be able to get across time with as well.

Posion/Diease/energy drain are difficult to get across, but also do not appear in conversation often.

Through, he perhaps has a developed sign language he could learn? Maybe he can try to teach it to the PCs for some good roleplaying sessions.

ClockShock
2011-06-07, 05:46 PM
Problem: If you yourself are stuck for ideas - how will other players/characters guess them?

For the sake of developing a decent idea we'll assume that you and your group have plenty of ways to handle this character so it is enjoyable for all, and not a time consuming game of charades every round.

Tortoise = slow down, take your time

Tiger = stealth, swift kill

(given the monk and martial arts vibe, playing off animal characteristics would fit well and could convey a reasonable amount of thought)

Flower = beauty

Waterfall = inevitability (bit of a stretch?)

Mountain = challenge/difficulty or steadfast/unmoving

Makleveh
2011-06-07, 06:59 PM
@Honest Tiefling - I thought about sign language, but it doesn't fit what I want him to be. In a nutshell, actions speak louder than words to him, and making a language that's not verbal to circumvent a vow of silence isn't something he'd do.

@ClockShock - More of a writers block than anything else right now- I've just poured out an entire character in a short period of time and am drained a bit from it. Besides, my party-mates are a smart bunch and I'm not above 3rd person roleplay to get a point across if they get stuck (He points at the ochre setting sun tattooed on his chest, indicating he will wait here until you are ready)

Also, I like your idea of using animals as symbols to convey adjectives. I didn't think of that. Thanks!

Nigel the Hobo
2011-06-08, 03:58 PM
How would you do abstract things like good/evil?

Fire is good; it can be fire, heat, a hearth (home by extension) and maybe evil
A table could be a meeting, a meal, or planning

OOC, would you just say what tattoo your char is pointing to and let your fellows figure it out or would you as the player speak? Because if it's the first, that may slow down play time considerably.

DontEatRawHagis
2011-06-08, 07:14 PM
Angel and devil tattoos to confer good/evil, Bad/good.

Bear trap = set ambush
Charging Bull = Attack as soon as possible.
Bunny running from fox = Retreat/fall back, its not worth the danger.

Lone Wolf(or depiction of self) = This is for me to do on my own.
Wolf Pack = Do this together.

Grim Reaper = Certain death.
Flower = Natural
rotting plant = Unnatural/undead

Olive Branch = Abstain from conversation
Running River = Retreat/Body of water nearby.
Treasure Chest = Monetary reward/Treasure

Dragon = Powerful enemies
Warrior = Normal enemies
Kobald/Goblin/Cockroach = weak enemy

Honest Tiefling
2011-06-08, 07:16 PM
The angel/devil thing for good and evil seems very logical and probably something that will come up again. Through I would suggest considering a demon, depending on if the order's main enemies were LE or CE.

Fayd
2011-06-08, 09:55 PM
Well, they could be semimagical tattoos that will form a representation of the idea when necessary. Most of the time, just lines and curves, completely unintelligible... when needed, they just ARE the symbol you need. No one notices a change, and yet, suddenly there is an image discernible in the pattern. Monks are a psionic class (in 4E...) after all... it could work something like the Doctor's Psychic paper in reverse.

Vknight
2011-06-08, 10:02 PM
A Full Moon for Night
A Setting Moon or Sun of the Next Day
A Moon and Sun for day or night
A Pike through a skull for traps
A coffin for resting place
A Bear for protection
A Golden Star for an idea
A group at a table for discussion

Makleveh
2011-06-08, 10:03 PM
@Nigel the Hobo - I've already got the elements covered- his school trains in different styles linked to the elements, which also can describe courses of action or temperaments.

For example, his tattoo of a mountain could, depending on the context, be a physical mountain, the element of earth, or someone who exhibits the characteristics of the related humor. Don't fret, it's a smart group of players, and once they get the idea of it, they'll be all over it.

To answer your other question, I'll probably third person it when he's communicating. If they're having trouble getting something, I'll be happy to help them along.
Something like "He cracks a small smile and points at you, while his other hands gestures first at his eye, then taps the crimson book on his shoulder, inviting you to watch and learn."

@DontEatRawHagis - I like a few of those, but I guess I should be more specific. He's not an adventurer. Not yet, at least. He is a teacher. He was a student. He had a life at the monastery and wasn't routinely involved setting ambushes or quality of opponents. In fact, to him, one shouldn't ever underestimate an opponent based on appearance (being a venerable creature himself). However, I am enamored with the idea of the olive branch as a tattoo. There is so much about it that can work. Thanks!

@Honest Tiefling - Good and evil are, I believe, static viewpoints of 'right' and 'wrong'. I might just be picky, but there is more to 'good' than an angel represents. Altruism, selflessness, and charity are all good, but not necessarily angelic. Perhaps a hand with an open palm?

@Fayd - That was brought up by the DM (along with activating them making a Message-like effect), but to me that violates the idea behind a vow of silence. This is communicating without words. (Though I will point out that he is literate and a calligrapher, and has absolutely no issues writing out an idea if he needs to or its practical.)

Good ideas tonight gang! A few new avenues for me to explore! Thanks, keep em coming!

-D

Fayd
2011-06-08, 10:55 PM
@Fayd - That was brought up by the DM (along with activating them making a Message-like effect), but to me that violates the idea behind a vow of silence. This is communicating without words. (Though I will point out that he is literate and a calligrapher, and has absolutely no issues writing out an idea if he needs to or its practical.)

Oh, I am not saying that you'd need writing, just so that the monk won't run out of space (or need a complex Dex based check) to communicate his thoughts. This wasn't meant for a complex communication, still in spirit with what you want... You can't change the symbols suddenly enough for it to make conversation, for example. And what I intended was the general effect was that the symbol was always THERE in the lines and whorls, but suddenly more noticeable. Like constellations if you know that they're there. I can see what you're getting at though... Hrm...

Katana_Geldar
2011-06-08, 10:59 PM
Have you read The Wise Man's Fear? I ask as it's particularly prevelant for...


...there are a society of warriors, called the Adem, that are very similar to monks. They use very few works, but have a complex system of hand gestures that are used to emphaise their speech further.

Honest Tiefling
2011-06-08, 11:00 PM
Maybe...Ask the DM for an ability that if the monk moves around alot, he can supplement the moves with very basic illusions? That way, you can just make up whatever you want on the spot and you don't have to figure out where each tattoo is, nor how large and how well hidden they could be. It also makes him look more normal, if humility with one's appearance is an aspect of the order.

He would still talk with motions, as it is the motions that generate the illusions. It would not work as a normal illusion spell, because there will be that dude spazzing in it.

Seb Wiers
2011-06-08, 11:29 PM
Sign language might also be worth looking into. Just grab a feat that grants you languages, and take "(Insert Culture Name Here) Hand Sign" as a language. It would only work when communicating with people who knew that exact specific set of hand signs, but if one other party member did, you'd have a "translator".

Or, you know, pick a race / class that grants access to telepathy. :P

Makleveh
2011-06-09, 04:42 PM
@Vknight - I like some of those- he can convey day/night and time with depictions of the sun/moon, as well as the idea of 'tomorrow' or 'later'. He can also use them to denote longer periods, 7 suns would be a week, 12 moons a year.

@Fayd - Yeah, I'm not trying to beat a vow of silence, just trying to supplement the alternative forms of communication that the vow of silence promotes. Of course, as characters grow and evolve, that would be something to consider- especially if there is something bad that happens due to his lack of being able to communicate. I'll keep it in mind.

@Katana_Geldar - I have not, though I can see the parallels. This is a personal choice of his, both ideologically and as a teaching aide from his past, though, not something many of the monks of his order partake in. I did toy with the idea of it being order-wide, but it would lessen the impact his character will make, IMO.

@Honest Tiefling, Seb Wiers - There are plenty of ways for me to get around a vow of silence, but this is the one I am interested in exploring. I believe there is enough depth here to do what I'd like, I'm just working on piecing it all together. Telepathy or sign language seem, to me, to be cop outs that my character wouldn't take, this being a roleplay-heavy campaign.

You guys are great!

-D

Honest Tiefling
2011-06-09, 04:47 PM
Ah, sorry. Not trying to take you away from it, but I thought it might work. Hrm...For a tattoo, maybe a symbol of his own order? So he could reference back to it or indicate that he will not do certain things by pointing at it?

Ceric
2011-06-09, 05:15 PM
You said you don't want a sign language, but perhaps you could use existing signs for inspiration? For example, the ASL signs for morning, afternoon, evening, etc are basically represented by the sun - one hand - being at different angles over the horizon. (Something like that. I took class a while ago.) Your character could get a tattoo of the sun on one hand and then use that one tattoo and various movements to represent many different times, instead of a whole series of tattoos.

You might have more issues with conjunctions such as "because".

Makleveh
2011-06-09, 08:03 PM
@Honest Tiefling - Yeah, his order is a collection of styles, which can be interpretted a few ways. See my response @Nigel the Hobo back in post 10 :)

@Ceric - He will be using his hands for basic communication- pointing, counting, pointing at eyes or ears for 'look' or 'listen', etc. I've not given any thought to the placement of tattoos on his body having a meaning though, thanks!
PS- I love the avatar(s)

-D

Honest Tiefling
2011-06-09, 09:09 PM
Aha, didn't see that. So...Perhaps a circle divided into equal parts? Represent balance, fairness, equality...And you'd better give me an equal share.

DontEatRawHagis
2011-06-09, 11:38 PM
Yin Yang - Good Evil or just an interesting one to have
Scale - Balance, also judge/law.
A jar Door - enter or exit location, or to say we need another way out of this.
Ax - Barbarians, insult.
Horse shoe - Luck, travel, track
Dice - gambling, chance, fate.

Cespenar
2011-06-10, 05:05 AM
By the way, I find the idea of taking a vow of silence and then going all through gestures, tattoos, etc. contradictory. A vow of silence in theory isn't about not speaking, per se. It's about not communicating, either as to give oneself the time and chance to contemplate more, or as a device of self-restraint. Finding means to communicate despite the vow would be breaking the vow, in my opinion.

Makleveh
2011-06-10, 05:15 AM
@DontEatRawHagis - Good! Thanks!

@Cespenar - While yes, that's what a vow of silence sounds like, that would be rather silly in a cooperative, social game!

As written, Vow of Silence: The monk must speak no words and attempt to be quiet in his actions. Accidental noises and the sounds of battle (such as the sound of a fist or weapon striking an opponent) do not affect his vow, though most monks with this vow choose their weapons and opponents so as to minimize even these sounds. The monk is allowed to make a nonvocal noise to warn another of danger (such as by stomping or clapping). The monk is allowed to use gestures and motions to communicate with others (including sign language) and is allowed to write. A monk with this vow increases his ki pool by 1 ki point for every 6 monk levels (minimum +1).

The vow is more about minimizing the impact you make on others with noise, not limiting how you are able to share ideas.

Cespenar
2011-06-10, 06:54 AM
Oh, okay. I thought the vow was a custom made RP thing, but it turns out it's an actual feature, Vow of Silence, with capital letters.

No wonder it's silly then. :smalltongue:

VarianArdell
2011-06-10, 08:19 AM
My suggestion: figure out a way to gain telepathy, and see if your DM will let you communicate telepathically with images instead of words.

askandarion
2011-06-10, 08:41 AM
When I saw the thread title, the first thing I thought was, "wasn't there an X-Man who could say things with tattoos?". I guess having magic (psionic?) tattoos that can change and make words wouldn't fit with your concept, but that sent me on my own idea train...

Anyway, don't forget about Bluff/Sense Motive for getting the point across, or Perform...

I have to think more to give better specific advice for "fleshing" out the concepts you'd need, but perhaps studying a pictographic language (brain isn't working, but a language that was conveyed by symbols, like ancient Egyptian, most Native American, and some Asian languages) could also help out?

Makleveh
2011-06-10, 07:01 PM
@Cespenar - :P I know what you mean. I'm looking at it to emphasize a 'once you stop talking you can finally start to listen' choice, not out of piety or religious conviction. I'd like him to be able to communicate to debate philosophy, write, etc.

@VarianArdell - Noted, but this topic is about how to use tattoos to supplement physical communication. I know there are a few other paths I could take, but this is the one I've chosen.

@askandarion - I, too, have stumbled upon a few other neat ideas in pursuing this, every character idea I have seems to invite a few more to use up my leftover ideas. My DM reminded me about sense motive to help the party along, but I doubt it will come to that. The last thing we need is PCs rolling to understand one another. :P

I have taken a look at some languages for inspiration- I'm working on animals to pass along adjectives in a Native American style, but using Hellenic beasts and such. The game is very Mediterranean flavored, so it will hopefully be a better fit.

Thanks!

-D

Winds
2011-06-10, 10:39 PM
Happy face-Yes, Good, Correct
Frowning/Angry face-No, Bad, Wrong
Blade-Attack, Aggressiveness
Shield-Defence, Passiveness



Maybe it would make more sense for him to have a slate to draw the more complex idea symbols on?

Human Paragon 3
2011-06-12, 12:36 PM
You could have a spider or a mask that indicates deceit, a trap, when you think somebody is lying or when you think the party needs to use deceit to get what they want.

Honest Tiefling
2011-06-12, 03:24 PM
If we have a Greek/Hellenic theme going on...

Lamasu (I think these are Babylonian in origin? The Greeks tended to steal things from them anyway): Good, Justice
Sphinx: Riddle, mystery
Chimera: Danger
Pegasus: Freedom, Escape
Medusa: Could also be danger, but could also be folly. Medusa came about as she did naughty things in a shrine.
Python: Oracle (The Oracle at Delphi)
Hippocampus: Trade, Sea (Horses are associated with Poseidon. He also had a lot to do with trade, as Greeks were sea traders)
Dolphin: Indulgence, Fun (Associated with Dionysus, god of boozing, wenching and madness)
Minotaur: Shame, Depravity.
Maze: Trap, Prison
Centuar: Wisdom, but also anger. Perhaps druids/other people from the wilderness? A cross of savage and civilized?
Birds: Death. I think the greeks associated birds with death, hence the Stygian Birds.

deuxhero
2011-06-13, 12:36 AM
9 swords: "Take it from someone who knows first hand: Monk is bad, go unarmed swordsage instead"

>_>

Mouth:Speak

Shpadoinkle
2011-06-13, 09:25 PM
You know, sign language as it exists today (in the US, at least) has roots among Spanish monks who took vows of silence.

It's a vow of silence, not a vow of non-communication. Although that's kind of iffy and your DM my feel differently.

Vknight
2011-06-13, 10:50 PM
Also Morse Code and the Language System using ones hand in which each part of a hand represents a letter

pasko77
2011-06-14, 06:18 AM
You should just check the ancient drawings of chinese ideograms. After all, they're exactly what you're looking for.