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View Full Version : [D&D3.5] Weapons, Upgrades, and More



Seerow
2011-06-11, 01:48 AM
This has been an ongoing project that has gone through several itterations. It started out as a way to upgrade weapons via masterwork, rather than just getting a boring +1 to hit bonus. The goal was to allow players more customization in their weapons. Since then, that central goal has remained, but it has grown to also rebalancing the various Weapons and Armor out there in D&D. The thread has grown from there, so this post is being divided up into sections:

[Section I] Revised Weapons
[Section II] Revised Armor
[Section III] Weapon and Armor Property Descriptions
[Section IV] Upgrading Your Gear (It's a Masterwork!)
[Section V] Creating New Gear
[Section VI] The Economics of Gear
Section VII]Gear Related Feats

[Section I]Revised Weapons

Base Weapon Types:
Melee Weapons
Light Weapons-A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand.

One-Handed- A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or ˝ his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. A One-Handed weapon may be used in two hands and gain 1˝ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage.

Two-Handed-Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1˝ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Ranged Weapons
Slings and Thrown Weapons-Slings and Thrown Weapons are treated similarly except Slings use stones as projectiles rather than throwing the sling itself. Slings and thrown weapons require only one hand to use. A character may apply their Strength bonus to damage while attacking with a sling or thrown weapon. Both may be used out to 5 range increments, and reloaded/drawn with a free action.

It is worth noting a thrown weapon is different from a melee weapon with the throwing property, the throwing property grants only 10ft base range, and a weapon with this property is listed as a melee weapon. A weapon designed as a thrown weapon is listed under ranged weapon, and has a 50ft base range. Thrown weapons and slings are usable in melee with a -2 penalty to attack and damage rolls.

Bows-Bows are projectile weapons which require two hands to use. A character gets no strength bonus to damage rolls unless the bow has the Mighty Property. Bows may be fired out to 10 range increments, and may be reloaded with a free action.

Crossbows-Crossbows are projectile weapons. Most crossbows require two hands to use (exception: Crossbows with the Light property may be used with one hand). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a Crossbow. Crossbows may be fired out to 10 range increments, and may be reloaded with a move action.

Core Weapons

{table="head;width=700"]Simple Weapon | Dmg | Critical | Range | Type | Special
{colsp=6}Light Melee Weapons
Dagger | 1d4 | x2 | 10ft | Piercing or Slashing|S1
Light Mace | 1d6 | x3 | - | Bludgeoning |-
Punching Dagger | 1d6 | x3 | - | Piercing|-
Sickle | 1d6 | 19-20x2 | - | Slashing |-
Spiked Gauntlet | 1d6 | x2 | - | Piercing or Bludgeoning |E1
{colsp=6}One-Handed Melee Weapons
Club | 1d8 | x2 | - | Bludgeoning | E1*
Heavy Mace | 1d8 | x3 | - | Bludgeoning |-
Javelin | 1d6 | x2 | 10ft | Piercing | T2
Morningstar | 1d8 | x2 | - | Bludgeoning and Piercing |-
Shortspear | 1d6 | x2 | 10ft | Piercing |E2, G3
{colsp=6}Two-Handed Melee Weapons
Longspear | 1d6 | x3 | - | Piercing | E2, G3, R1,
Quarterstaff | 1d6/1d6 | x2 | - | Bludgeoning | E5, G1
Spear | 1d8 | x3 | - | Piercing | G3, E2
{colsp=6}Ranged Weapons
Light Crossbow | 1d8 | 19-20x2 | 70ft | Piercing | C, P2
Heavy Crossbow | 1d10 | 19-20x2 | 80ft | Piercing | C
Sling | 1d6 | x3 | 50ft | Bludgeoning | T
[/table]

{table="head;width=700"]Martial Weapon | Dmg | Critical | Range | Type | Special
{colsp=6}Light Melee Weapons
Handaxe | 1d8 | x3 | - | Slashing | -
Kukri | 1d6 | 18-20x2 | - | Slashing | -
Light Hammer | 1d6 | x2 | 30ft | Bludgeoning | T1
Light Pick | 1d6 | x4 | - | Piercing | -
Light Shield Spike | 1d6 | 19-20x2 | - | Piercing | E1, M2
Sap | 1d8 | x3 | - | Bludgeoning | E2
Short Sword | 1d8 | 19-20x2 | - |Piercing | -
Throwing Axe | 1d6 | x3 | 10ft | Slashing | T1
{colsp=6}One-Handed Melee Weapons
Battleaxe | 1d10 | x3 | - | Slashing | -
Flail | 1d8 | 19-20x2 | - | Bludgeoning | M1, M6
Heavy Pick | 1d8 | x4 | - | Piercing | -
Heavy Shield /Armor Spike | 1d8 | 19-20x2 | - | Piercing | E1, M2
Longsword | 1d10 | 19-20x2 | - | Slashing | -
Trident | 1d8 | x2 | 10ft | Piercing | E2, G3, T1
Warhammer | 1d10 | x3 | - | Bludgeoning | -
{colsp=6}Two-Handed Melee Weapons
Falchion | 2d4 | 18-20x2 | - | Slashing | E2
Glaive | 1d10 | x3 | - | Slashing | R1
Greataxe | 1d12 | x3 | - | Slashing | -
Greatclub | 2d6 | x2 | - | Bludgeoning | M2
Greatsword | 1d12 | 19-20x2 | - | Slashing | -
Guisarme | 2d4 | x3 | - | Slashing | M6, R1
Halberd | 1d10 | x3 | - | Slashing or Piercing | G3
Heavy Flail | 1d10 | 19-20x2 | - | Bludgeoning | M1, M6
Lance | 1d8 | x3 | - | Piercing | R1, R2
Ranseur | 2d4 | x3 | - | Piercing | M1, R1
Scythe | 2d4 | x4 | - | Piercing or Slashing | -
Tower Shield Spike | 2d6 | x2 | - | Piercing | G5
{colsp=6}Ranged Weapons
Great Crossbow | 1d12 | 19-20x2 | 90ft | Piercing | C
Longbow | 1d10 |x3 | 80ft | Piercing | B
Repeating Crossbow | 1d10 | 19-20x2 | 80ft | Piercing | C, P3
Shortbow | 1d8 | x3 | 70ft | Piercing | B, P1*
[/table]

{table="head;width=700"]Exotic Weapon | Dmg | Critical | Range | Type | Special
{colsp=6}Light Melee Weapons
Kama | 1d8 | x4 | - | Slashing | E5, M4, M6
Nunchaku | 1d12 | 19-20x2 | - | Bludgeoning | E5
Sai | 1d6 | 19-20x3 | - | Bludgeoning | E5, M3*
Siangham | 2d4 | x3 | 20ft | Piercing | T1, E5
{colsp=6}One-Handed Melee Weapons
Bastard Sword | 2d6 | 19-20x2 | - | Slashing | E2
Dwarven Waraxe | 1d10 | 19-20x4 | - | Slashing | -
Rapier | 1d10 | 18-20x2 | - | Piercing | M1*, G4
Scimitar | 1d10 | 18-20x2 | - | Slashing | E2*, G4
Whip | 1d6 | x2 | - | Slashing | G2, M1, M6, R1*
{colsp=6}Two-Handed Melee Weapons
Dire Flail | 1d12/1d12 | 19-20x2 | - | Bludgeoning | G1, M1, M6
Dwarven Ugrosh | 1d8/1d8 | 19-20x3 | - | Slashing or Piercing | G1, G3
Gnome Hooked Hammer | 1d6/1d6 | 19-20x4 | - | Bludgeoning/Piercing | G1, M6
Orc Double Axe | 1d10/1d10 | 19-20x3 | - | Slashing | G1
Spiked Chain | 2d4 | 19-20x2 | - | Piercing | G4, M1, M4, M6, R1*
Two-Bladed Sword | 1d10/1d10 | 19-20x3 | - | Slashing |G1
{colsp=6}Ranged Weapons
Bolas | 2d4 | 18-20x2 | 50ft | Bludgeoning | T, G2, M4*, M6
Shuriken | 1d4 | 19-20x4 | 50ft | Piercing | T, E5 [/table]


New Weapons

{table="head;width=700"]New Weapons |Dmg | Critical | Range | Type | Special
{colsp=6}Simple Light Weapons
Musperule | 1d6 | 19-20x2 | - | Bludgeoning | -
Steel Flute | 1d4 | 20x2 | 10ft | Bludgeoning | S2, S3, T1
{colsp=6}Simple One-Handed Weapons
Heavy Sickle | 1d8 | 19-20x2 | - | Slashing | -
{colsp=6}Martial Light Weapons
Gehennan Lancet | 1d6 | 18-20x2 | - | Piercing | -
Parrying Dagger | 1d6 | 19-20x2 | Piercing | E3
Stabaxe | 1d8 | 20x3 | - | Piercing | -
Straightblade | 1d8 | 19-20x2 | - | Slashing | -
{colsp=6}Martial Two-Handed Weapons
Ripper | 1d10 | 19-20x2 | - | Piercing | E2, G3
{colsp=6}Martial Ranged Weapons
Light Repeating Crossbow | 1d8 | 19-20x2 | 80ft | Piercing | C, P2, P3
Throwing Hammer | 1d8 | 20x3 | 50ft | Bludgeoning | T
{colsp=6}Exotic Light Weapons
Cutting Wheel | 1d8 | 19-20x2 | - | Piercing and Slashing | E5, M3*
Elven Lightblade | 1d10 | 18-20x2 | - | Piercing | E2, M1
Dwarven Buckler-Axe| 1d8 | 19-20x3 | - | Slashing | E3
Gnomish Quickrazor | 1d6 | 18-20x2 | - | Slashing | E2, S1, M5*, G6
Gnomish Tortoise Blade | 1d8 | 18-20x2 | - | Piercing | E3, E4*
Monk's Cane | 1d8 | 20x3 | 10ft | Bludgeoning | E5, M1, S2, T1
{colsp=6}Exotic One-Handed Weapons
Elven Thinblade | 1d12 | 18-20x2 | - | Piercing | G4
Gnomish Swordcatcher | 1d8 | 19-20x3 | - | Slashing | G4, M1*
Hook Sword | 1d10 | 19-20x2 | - | Piercing or Slashing | E5, M1, M4, M6
Spinning Sword | 1d6 | 19-20x2 | - | Slashing | S1, R1*, G5
{colsp=6}Exotic Two-Handed Weapons
Dwarven Double Spear | 1d10/1d10 | x4 | - | Piercing or Slashing | G1, G3
Dwarven Greataxe | 2d6 | x4 | - | Slashing | E1, E2
Dwarven Warpike | 2d6 | 20x3 | - | Piercing |G3, R1, M4, M6
Elven Courtblade | 2d6 | 18-20x2 | - | Piercing or Slashing | G4
Fullblade | 4d4 | 19-20x2 | - | Slashing | -
Jovar | 2d6 | 18-20x2 | - | Slashing | E1, E2
Minotaur Greathammer | 2d8 | x3 | - | Bludgeoning | M2
Monk's Spade | 1d8/1d8 | 20x4 | - | Bludgeoning or Slashing | E5, G1, M6
Ramhammer | 2d6 | x4 | - | Bludgeoning | G5, M2, R1
Talenta Tangat | 1d10 | 18-20x3 | - | Slashing | E2*
Valenar Double Scimitar | 1d10/1d10 | 18-20x2 | - | Slashing | G1, E2*
Zulaat (Double Glaive) | 1d8/1d8 | 19-20x4 | - | Slashing | G1, R1
{colsp=6}Ranged Weapons
Annulat | 1d10 | 18-20x2 | 50ft | Slashing | T, T4
Arbalest | 1d12 | 18-20x3 | 90ft | Piercing | C
Easy Crossbow | 2d4 | 19-20x3 | 80ft | Piercing | C, P5
Easy Light Crossbow | 2d4 | 19-20x2 | 80ft | Piercing | C, P2, P5
Footbow | 1d12 | 20x3 | 90ft | Piercing | B, P4
Greatbow | 2d6 | x3 | 110ft | Piercing | B
Skiprock | 1d8 | 20x4 | 50ft | Bludgeoning | T, T4
Talenta Boomerang | 1d8 | 20x4 | 70ft | Bludgeoning | T, T2
War Sling | 1d12 | x4 | 50ft | Bludgeoning | T
Xendrik Boomerang | 1d10 | 18-20x2 | 50ft | Bludgeoning | T, T2
[/table]


Weapon Property listing (if a weapon has a number listed under special, check this list to see what property that is):
{table=head]Abbrev|Group|Name
E1|enhanced|Brutal
E2|enhanced|Deadly
E3|enhanced|Defensive
E4|enhanced|Opportunist
E5|enhanced|Monk Weapon
G1|general|Double Weapon
G2|general|Non-Lethal
G3|general|Chargebreaker
G4|general|Finessible
G5|general|Knockback
G6|general|Sudden Draw
M1|maneuver|+2 Disarm
M2|maneuver|+2 Bull Rush
M3|maneuver|+2 Disarm
M4|maneuver|+2 Trip
M5|maneuver|+2 Feint
M6|maneuver|Tripping
P1|projectile|Riding
P2|projectile|One-handed
P3|projectile|Repeating
P4|projectile|Mighty
P5|projectile|Quick-Loading
R1|reach|Reach
R2|reach|Charger
S1|stealth|Concealable
S2|stealth|Non-Threatening
S3|stealth|Battle Instrument
T1 |thrown|Throwing
T2|thrown|Return
T3|thrown|Heavy Thrown
T4|thrown|Ricochet
T4|thrown|Arc
B | projectile|Bow
C | projectile|Crossbow
T | thrown|Thrown[/table]
*=taken twice for x2 bonus

[Section II] Revised Armor

Core Armors
{table="head;width=700"]Armor Type | Armor Bonus | Max Dex | ACP | ASF | Weight | Special
{colsp=7}Light Armor
Padded | 1 | 7 | 0 | 5% | 15lb | Fire Vulnerability 4
Leather | 2 | 6 | -1 | 10% | 16lb | Fire Vulnerability 2
Studded Leather | 3 | 4 | -2 | 10% | 18lb | -
Chain Shirt | 4 | 2 | -1 | 15% | 20lb | -
{colsp=7}Medium Armor
Hide | 4 | 5 | -3 | 15% | 30lb | Fire Vulnerability 2
Breastplate | 5 | 3 | -3 | 25% | 36lb | Fortification 1
Half Plate | 5 | 4 | -4 | 20% | 34lb | -
Chainmail | 6 | 2 | -2 | 25% | 50lb | -
{colsp=7}Heavy Armor
Scale Mail | 6 | 6 | -4 | 40% | 42lb | -
Banded Mail | 7 | 4 | -5 | 35% | 48lb | -
Splint Mail | 8 | 2 | -6 | 30% | 54lb | -
Full Plate | 9 | 0 | -5 | 30% | 80lb | -
{colsp=7}Shields
Buckler | 1 | - | 0 | 5% | 5 lbs | -
Light Shield | 2 | - | -1 | 5% | 10 lb. | Fortification 1
Heavy Shield | 3 | - | -3 | 5% | 15 lb. | Fortification 2
Tower Shield | 3 | - | -6 | 15% | 45 lb. | Cover[/table]


Sidebar: Rules Update for ACP and Movement Penalties from Armor
Armor by default incurs no penalties for being worn, except ASF. ASF is baseline 10% per armor category (so 10% for light, 20% for medium, 30% for heavy). Penalties to movement speed and armor check penalties are determined based on encumbrance. Max dex remains a property of armor, but if the max dex of your encumbrance level is more restrictive than that of your armor, use that instead.

Armor weight may be increased or decreased with the appropriate properties. Armor also has its weight reduced with increased max dexterity. An armor's weight is effectively considered double for purposes of encumbrance if the character is trying to swim.

Armor Check Penalties listed on armor are added to the the ACP incurred from encumbrance, but only penalties from encumbrance apply to strength based skills (ie Climb, Jump, and Swim). ACP incurred from the armor itself applies to the skills Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble.

Dwarves, and any other races/class features that grant the ability to move at normal speed while wearing heavy armor now gain the ability to move at normal speed when encumbered, regardless of whether this is a result of armor or not.


Sidebar: Rules Update for Donning Armor
Donning Armor takes 1 minute per armor category. So it takes 1 minute to don light armor, 2 minutes for medium, or 3 minutes for heavy. Donning the Armor hastily can reduce that time to being measured in rounds instead, so 1 round for light armor, 2 rounds for medium, and 3 rounds for heavy. Doing so reduces the armor's AC bonus by 1 and increases the Armor Check Penalty by 2.

Armor Property descriptions may be found in the next section, under upgrading armor.


[Section III]Weapon and Armor Property Descriptions


Weapon Property Descriptions:
Enhanced

Accurate-A weapon with this property gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls. This benefit may not be taken more than once.

Brutal-A weapon with this property rerolls 1s when rolling damage. This property may be taken a second time to allow for rerolling 2s.

Deadly-A weapon with this property gains a +2 bonus to critical confirmation rolls. This property may be stacked twice, up to a +4 total bonus.

Defensive-While wielding a defensive weapon, your weapon gains a +2 shield bonus to AC. If a weapon with this property gains an enhancement bonus to attack and damage, that enhancement bonus also increases the shield bonus from this property.

Opportunist-A weapon with this property gains a +2 bonus to attacks of opportunity. This property may be stacked twice, up to a +4 total bonus.

Monk Weapon-A weapon with this property may be used with a Monk's flurry of blows.

General

Chargebreaker-Once per round, if this weapon is used to attack an opponent who used the Charge action on their turn, the weapon’s base damage is doubled. You must declare this ability before rolling damage, but you may wait to see if your attack hit or not before declaring it

Double-A weapon with this property has a handle with a weapon on each end of the handle, and is treated as a one handed weapon and a light weapon when both sides are used in the same round. Each end of the weapon may deal a different damage type without costing any extra slots.

Finessible-A weapon with this property may use dexterity for attack rolls even if it is not a light weapon.

Increase Critical Multiplier-This property increases the critical multiplier of the weapon by 1 for 1 slot. So from x2, to x3, to x4. This property may not bring a weapon's multiplier above x4.

Increase Threat Range-This property increases the threat range of the weapon by 1 for 1 slot. So from 20 to 19-20 to 18-20. This property may not bring a weapon's threat range below 18-20.

Knockback-A weapon with this property allows the user to not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a Bull Rush.

Nonlethal-A weapon with this property deals only nonlethal damage, ever.

Semi-Lethal-A weapon with this property may be used to deal either lethal or non-lethal damage without penalty, as chosen by the user at the time he attacks.

Split Damage Dice-This is a property that may be added to a weapon that is either at xd8 damage or xd12 damage. This property costs 1 slot, and splits the dice, into twice as many dice of half the size. So if you have a weapon with a 1d8, you can spend .5 slots to make it 2d4. If you have a weapon with 1d12, you can spend .5 slots to make it 2d6.

For a comprehensive list of weapon damage dice, slot costs (both per level and total), and how they scale up and down with size, check in this spoiler box:

{table="head;width=700"]Base Damage Die | Slot Cost | Total Cost | Fine | Diminutive | Tiny | Small | Medium | Large | Huge | Gargantuan | Colossal
1d4 | 0 | 0 | - | 1 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 |1d6 | 2d4 | 3d4 | 4d4
1d6 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 |1d8 | 2d6 | 3d6 | 4d6
1d8 | 1 | 2 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 3d4 | 2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8
2d4 | .5 | 2.5 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 2d4 | 3d4 | 4d4 | 6d4 | 8d4
d10 | 1 | 3 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 |2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8 | 6d8
d12 | 1 | 4 | 1d3 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 1d12 | 3d6 | 4d6 | 6d6 | 8d6
2d6 |.5 | 4.5 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 3d6 |4d6 | 6d6 | 8d6
2d8 | 2 | 6.5 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8 | 6d8 | 8d8
4d4 | .5 | 7 | 1d4 | 1d6 |2d4 | 3d4 | 4d4 |6d4 | 8d4 | 12d4 | 16d4
2d10 | 2 | 8.5 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 2d10 | 3d10 | 4d10 | 6d10 | 8d10
2d12 | 2 | 10.5 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 3d6 | 2d12 | 3d12 | 4d12 | 6d12 |8d12
4d6 | .5 | 11 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 3d6 | 4d6 | 6d6 | 8d6 | 12d6 | 16d6
4d8 | 4 | 15 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8 |6d8 | 8d8 | 12d8 | 16d8
8d4 | .5 | 15.5 | 1d10 | 2d6 |4d4 | 6d4 | 8d4 | 12d4 | 16d4 | 24d4 | 32d4
4d10 | 4 | 19 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 2d10 | 3d10 | 4d10 | 6d10 | 8d10 | 12d10 | 16d10
4d12 | 4 | 23 | 1d12 | 2d8 | 2d12 | 3d12 | 4d12 | 6d12 | 8d12 | 12d12 | 16d12[/table]


Sudden Draw-A weapon with this property may be drawn and sheathed as a free action.

Maneuver

+2 to Combat Maneuver-A weapon with this property gains a +2 bonus to Disarm, Trip, Bull Rush, Feint, or Sunder checks. This property may be stacked up to twice, allowing for a total +4 to any given combat maneuver. This property may be gained multiple times for different maneuvers. So a given weapon could for example have +4 to trip attempts and +2 to sunder attempts.

Staggering-If you score a critical hit with this weapon, you may take an immediate action to make a Bull Rush or Overrun attempt. The opponent struck by the critical hit is your target, and cannot take an attack of opportunity nor can he choose to avoid the overrun attempt. If you successfully push them back you may also move into any spaces they vacate, provided you end this movement adjacent to that enemy. You are limited to your base land speed with either action, but otherwise resolve the Bull Rush or Overrun attempt normally.

Tripping-A weapon with this property may be used to make a trip attempt.

Projectile

+1 to Damage-Masterwork Ammunition with this property gains a +1 bonus to damage rolls. This property may be taken multiple times, with its effects stacking.

Bow-A Bow is a projectile weapon that may be reloaded as a free action. Bows gain +10ft to their range increment any time their damage die is increased or split.

Crossbow-A crossbow is a type of ranged weapon that is typically harder to reload. A crossbow requires a move action to reload before it may be fired again. Crossbows gain +10ft to their range increment any time their damage die is increased or split.

Repeating-A crossbow with this property stores 5 rounds, that may be used without needing to reload. Loading a new case of 5 bolts is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Riding-A weapon with this property reduces the penalties for shooting while mounted by 2. This property may be stacked twice, up to a total penalty reduction of 4.

Mighty-A ranged weapon with this property allows the user to add their strength to damage.

One-Handed-A crossbow with this property may be used one handed

Quick-Loading-A crossbow with this property may reload as a free action.

Reach

Charger-A weapon with this property deals double damage when used with a mounted charge.

Reach-A weapon with this property may strike an area 5ft further than normal, but cannot strike the area adjacent. This property may be taken a second time to allow for striking adjacent.

Stealth

Battle Instrument-A weapon with this property may function as both a musical instrument and a weapon, but it may only be used as one or the other in a given round. Both the instrument functionality and the weapon functionality may be masterworked, but both must be paid for separately.

Concealable-A weapon with this property grants a +4 bonus to sleight of hand checks to be hidden.

Nonthreatening- A weapon with this property appears to be a normal non-threatening object without careful observation. It takes a DC20 sense motive check to identify the weapon for what it is. If it is being wielded by a person proficient with the weapon, they may add their ranks in bluff to the DC to identify the weapon.

Thrown

Arc-A weapon with this property allows the user to make attacks bypass up to 2 points of cover bonus to AC. This property may be stacked twice, allowing a total of up to 4 points of cover bonus to be ignored.

Heavy Thrown-A thrown weapon with this property allows the wielder to use his strength modifier for attack rolls, rather than dexterity.

Melee Adaption-This property may be applied to a sling or thrown weapon, allowing it to be used in melee without the normal penalty to hit.

Returning- A weapon with this property flies back to a proficient user on a miss. To catch a returning weapon, the user must make an attack roll against AC 10, as if he were throwing the weapon. Failure indicates the weapon scatters 10' in a random direction (refer to splash weapon rules for details on scattering in a random direction).

Ricochet- If a proficient user manages to hit their target, the weapon ricochets to an adjacent target. The user immediately makes a second attack roll at the same bonus-2 for this attack. An attack may ricochet only once.

Throwing-A melee weapon with this property may be thrown at a 10ft range increment.

Thrown-A thrown weapon is a weapon specifically designed to be thrown, and has a 50ft range increment. A thrown weapon may be used in melee as a light weapon, but incurs a -2 penalty to attack rolls when used in this way.



Armor Property Descriptions
+2 to resist maneuver- An armor with this property bestows a +2 bonus to the wearer to resisting the specified type of combat maneuver. This property may be stacked up to 4 times, for a total of +4 bonus to any given maneuver. The property may also be taken multiple times with different maneuvers.

Acid Resist-An armor with this property has Acid Resistance equivalent to its rating. A character may stack this property multiple times, with no limit.

Armor/Shield Spike-This property adds spikes to the armor/shield, allowing it to be used as a weapon. The properties of the spike are listed on the Martial Weapons table. The spike may not be enchanted or upgraded separately from the shield, however any enhancement bonus increase to Armor Class also applies as a bonus to attack and damage rolls with the spikes.

Camouflaged-Camouflaged armor has coloring patterns that are duller than normal armor, and made in such a way that it can blend in easier with surroundings. This property eliminates up to 3 points of ACP from hide checks (ACP still applies to other skills normally).

Cold Resist-An armor with this property has Cold Resistance equivalent to its rating. A character may stack this property multiple times, with no limit.

Cover-This property may be applied only to a shield. The cover property allows a shield to provide soft cover at all times when other cover is not available. It may also be used to supply Cover to the wielder when fighting defensively or using combat expertise. When taking a full defense action, the tower shield provides Total Cover.

Damage Resistance-An armor with this property grants DR/- equivalent to its rating. A character may stack this property multiple times, with no limit. However, it does cost more for the first point of damage resistance to be added to the armor.

Dextrous-Dextrous armor has very flexible gloves/gauntlets and joints to allow for slick tricks.This property eliminates up to 3 points of ACP from Slight of Hand checks (ACP still applies to other skills normally).

Electricity Resist-An armor with this property has Electricity Resistance equivalent to its rating. A character may stack this property multiple times, with no limit.

Fire Resist-An armor with this property has Fire Resistance equivalent to its rating. A character may stack this property multiple times, with no limit.

Fortification-An armor with this property grants the wearer an additional +1 AC against critical confirmation rolls. This property may be stacked up to 4 times, for a total of a +4 bonus to AC vs crits.

Sidebar: Fortification
Here I've changed how fortification works. Rather than a miss chance against crits, Fortification provides extra AC against critical hits. This bonus AC counts against sneak attacks and other precision effects. If an attack with precision damage hits, it deals damage as normal, but to deal any extra precision damage the attack must beat the enhanced AC from fortification. So if a Rogue attacks a Fighter he is flanking with 24 AC and Fortification 4, on a 25 he will hit and deal normal damage. On a 28 he will hit and also get to add his sneak attack damage.

The easy conversion here is: Light Fortification is +4. Medium Fortification is +8. Heavy Fortification and Immunity from other sources remains as normal. (Alternatively you can make this a +12, which makes the attack unlikely to crit, but it is doable by an attacker with sufficient skill)


If you don't wish to use these fortification rules, you can easily make the bonus only apply against crit threats, and use the old armor properties as normal. It is recommended if you do to make this property provide twice its usual bonus however.

Increase Max Dex-An armor that has been improved may have its max dex increased. Increasing the maximum dexterity of the armor usually involves removing or rearranging some of the armor for a better fit. Even if the armor itself isn't lighter, it may be treated as such for purposes of encumbrance, resulting in the armor's weight being reduced by 1lb per armor category for every point the maximum dexterity is raised.

Keeled-Keeled armor is specifically designed for swimming, and does not have its weight doubled for encumbrance when swimming.

Muffled-Muffled Armor has padding muffling joints and interlocking pieces of armor so they create less noise. This property eliminates up to 3 points of ACP from move silently checks (ACP still applies to other skills normally).

Quick Don-An armor with this property has been constructed especially to be able to use the don hastily option without taking the normal penalty.

Reduced ACP-An armor that has been improved may have its ACP reduced.

Reduced ASF-An armor may have its ASF reduced in intervals of 5%.

Reduced Weight-An armor with this property has its weight reduced by 25%. This weight reduction on base armors usually comes from using a non-metal material such as leather or hide, but improved armors may also make use of this property by reducing the amount of material used. This modification may be taken multiple times, each time you take 33% off of the current weight, not the base weight. (For example a heavy armor that weighs 60lbs could be reduced to 45 lbs, and then if taken again would be reduced to 34lbs, rather than 30lbs)

Rolling-Rolling Armor is balanced weight-wise and rounded on the outside for smooth rolling. This property eliminates up to 3 points of ACP from tumble checks (ACP still applies to other skills normally).

Slick-Slick armor has a slightly oiled feel about it. This property eliminates up to 3 points of ACP from escape artist checks (ACP still applies to other skills normally).

Upright-Upright armor is designed with an internal support system, to make balancing in it easier. This property eliminates up to 3 points of ACP from balance checks (ACP still applies to other skills normally).

[Section IV]Upgrading Your Gear (It's a Masterwork!)


Weapons and Armor come in several different qualities. In the standard D&D rules, you have only common, and masterwork. There are now four qualities of gear: Common, Exceptional, Superior, Masterwork. Instead of a +1 enhancement bonus to hit, every quality increase gives a +1 bonus slot that may be used to enhance the gear as the crafter desires.

Arrows, Bolts, and other Ammunition may also be upgraded to Masterwork as normal, the benefits of a masterworked arrow do stack with those of a masterworked weapon, though normal caps still apply (for example a weapon with +4 bullrush using arrows with +4 bullrush still only has a +4, due to being capped at +4 total)

It is important to note if a property added overlaps with an already existing property, that you only charge for the difference. For example, if you take a Glaive with Reach, and want to upgrade it to inclusive reach, then you take the cost of reach (1 slot) and subtract that from the cost of inclusive reach (2 slots), and only charge the difference (1 slot). So your masterwork Glaive with inclusive reach would spend only 1 slot on that, and would still have two more slots worth of upgrades available.



Weapon Properties
{table="head;width=700"]Upgrade | Slot Cost | Melee Weapon | Ranged Weapon | Ammunition
+1 to Damage | 1 | No | No | Yes
+2 to a combat maneuver | .5 | Yes | Yes | Yes
Accurate | 1 | Yes | Yes | Yes
Arc | 1 | No | Yes | Yes
Battle Instrument | .5 | Yes | Yes | No
Brutal1| .5 | Yes | Yes | Yes
Chargebreaker | .5 | Yes | No | No
Charger | 1 |Yes | No | No
Concealable| .5 | Yes | Yes | Yes
Deadly | .5 | Yes | Yes | Yes
Deal an extra damage type | .5 | Yes | Yes | Yes
Defensive | 2 | Yes | No | No
Double Weapon3 | 2 |Yes | No | No
Easy loading| 1.5 | No | Yes | No
Finessible | 1 |Yes | No | No
Hand Crossbow | 1 | No | Yes | No
Heavy Thrown | 1 | No | Yes | No
Increase Crit Threat Range2 |1 | Yes | Yes | No
Increase Crit Multiplier2 | 1 |Yes | Yes | No
Increase Damage Dice1 | 1 | Yes | Yes | No
Knockback | .5 | Yes | No | No
Light Finessible | .5 | Yes | No | No
Melee Adaption | 1 | No | Yes | No
Mighty | 1 | No | Yes | No
Monk Weapon | 1 | Yes | Yes | No
Non-lethal| 0 | Yes | Yes | Yes
Non-Threatening | .5 | Yes | Yes | No
Opportunist | .5 | Yes | No | No
Range increment +10ft | .5 | No | Yes | Yes
Reach4 | 1 | Yes | No | No
Repeating Crossbow | 1 |No | Yes | No
Return | 1 | No | Yes | No
Ricochet | 2 | No | Yes | Yes
Riding Bow | .5 | No | Yes | No
Semi-Lethal| 1 | Yes | No | No
Split Damage Dice | .5 | Yes | Yes | No
Sudden Draw | 1 | Yes | No | No
Throwing | 1 | Yes | No | No
Tripping | .5 | Yes | Yes | Yes
[/table]


1-The slot cost of this property is multiplied by the number of dice rolled. For example, increasing from 1d6 to 1d8 is 1 slot, but upgrading from 2d6 to 2d8 is 2 slots. Similarly, increasing from 4d4 to 4d6 would cost 4 slots.
2-Double the lower cost property when combining two crit modifiers. For example 19-20x4 uses 1 slot for x19-20, 2 slots for x4. The 19-20 cost gets doubled to 2, making the combined cost 4 slots rather than the normal 3. If the slot costs are equal, then double the cost of one of the properties (so a 19-20x3 would cost 3 slots).
3-Two Handed Weapons only
4-This Property costs double on a one handed weapon



Below are some sample masterwork weapons, designed at the Superior Quality level (2 bonus slots).

{table="head;width=700"]Masterwork Only Weapons | Base Weapon |Dmg | Critical | Range | Type | Special
{colsp=7}One Handed Melee Weapons
Whip-Dagger | Whip | 1d8 | 19-20x2 | - | Slashing | R1*, M1, M6
{colsp=7}Two Handed Melee Weapons
Swordchucks | Two-Bladed Sword| 1d10/1d10 | 19-20x2 | - | Slashing | R1*, G1, E2*, 9, 13
Talenta Sharrash | - (Exotic) | 1d10 | 19-20x4 | - | Slashing | E2*, M4, M6, R1
{colsp=7}Ranged Weapons
Composite Greatbow | Greatbow | 2d8 | x3 | 120ft | Piercing | B, P4
Composite Longbow | Longbow | 1d12 |x3 | 90ft | Piercing | B, P4
Composite Shortbow | Shortbow | 1d10 | x3 | 80ft | Piercing | B, P1*, P4
[/table]





Armor Properties
{table=head]Upgrade | Slot Cost
+1 to resist bull rush (max +4) | .25 slot
+1 to resist trip (max +4) | .25 slot
+1 to resist grapple (max+4) | .25 slot
+1 to resist disarm (max+4) | .25 slot
Acid Resist +1 | .25 slots
Camouflaged* | .25 slots
Cold Resist +1 | .25 slots
Dextrous* | .25 slots
Electricity Resist +1 | .25 slots
Fire Resist +1 | .25 slots
Muffled* | .25 slots
Rolling* | .25 slots
Slick* | .25 slots
Upright* | .25 slots
Decrease Armor Check Penalty by 1 | .5 slots
Fortification +1 (max +4)| .5 slots
Increase max dex +1** | .5 slots
Increase existing DR by +1 | .5 slots
Keeled | .5 slots
Reduce ASF 5% | .5 slots
Reduced Weight | .5 slots
Quick Don Armor | 1 slots
Increase Armor Bonus +1** | 1 slot
Armor/Shield Spike | 2 slot
Add DR 1/- to an armor | 2 slots
Cover | 3 Slots[/table]
* Can be taken twice, with the effects stacking
** Upgrades of this type may use up to 6 total slots on armor, or up to 3 total slots on Shields. Any upgrades of this type beyond the 6 slot limit costs 3 times as much as normal.




[Section V]Optional Rule: Creating New Gear
Now that we have all of this material, there is another thing to consider. With all of the slot costs laid out, it is exceedingly easy to make new gear and it being balanced against the already existing gear. All of the Weapons and Armor in this topic have been balanced according to this system, so following it should get equipment roughly in line with the rest.

It is however, up to the DM to choose to allow the creation of a new weapon, and he should consider it carefully before allowing it. The DM should encourage any new weapons to be varied in use, rather than just having all slots going into straight damage for example.

Creating Weapons
All weapons have 8 slots. Making a Weapon a simple weapon takes up 4 slots. Making it a martial weapon takes up 3 slots. Making it an exotic doesn't take any. Similarly, a light or throwing weapon takes up 2 slots, a one-handed weapons and bows take up 1 slot, and crossbows and two-handed weapon takes up none.

The number of slots each weapon type has left over for upgrades can be found on the chart below:

The number of slots each weapon type has left over for upgrades can be found on the chart below:
{table="head;width=700"]Proficiency Type | Light | One-Handed | Two-Handed | Throwing/Slings |Bows | Crossbows
Simple | 2 | 3 | 4 | 2 | 3 | 4
Martial | 3 | 4 | 5 | 3 | 4 | 5
Exotic | 6 | 7 | 8 | 6 | 7 | 8[/table]

So an exotic two handed weapon has all 8 slots available. But a Simple Light weapon has only 2 slots available. A Martial One-Handed Weapon has 4 slots available. Pretty simple.

All Weapons - start with a d4 damage die, and a 20x2 crit, which may be bought up normally.
All Ranged Weapons - Start with a 50ft range.
Bows and Crossbows - Gain +10ft range for every time their damage die is increased or split. (So a bow with a d10 damage has a 80ft range, a bow with 2d6 has 100ft, 2d8 has 110ft, etc)

Creating Armor
All Armor has 4 slots, and a base armor value of 2. Making Armor Light takes up 2 Slots, making it Medium takes up 1 slot, and Heavy Armor takes no additional slots. So Light Armor has 2 Slots, Medium has 3, and Heavy has 4. Armor however can come with extra penalties, such as an Armor Check Penalty which give extra slots to be used to upgrade other areas. For example, ACP grants .5 slots, so if you have a Light armor with 2 points of ACP, that Armor may have 3 slots worth of upgrades.

The table below indicates each type of armor, its base stats, how many slots are available to modify it, and how many penalty slots the armor may have.

{table=head]Armor Type | Base Slots | Base Armor | Base Max Dex | Base ACP | Base ASF | Max Penalty Slots | Max Total Slots | Base Weight
Light Armor | 2 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 10% | 1 | 3 | 10 lbs
Medium Armor | 3 | 2 | 1 | -1 | 20% | 1.5 | 4.5 | 30 lbs
Heavy Armor | 4 | 3 | 0 | -2 | 30% | 2 | 6 | 60 lbs
Buckler | 0 | 1 | - | - | 5% | 0 | 0 | 5 lbs
Light Shield | 1 | 1 | - | - | 5% | .5 | 1.5 | 10 lbs
Heavy Shield | 2 | 1 | - | -1 | 5% | 1 | 3 | 15lbs
Tower Shield | 3 | 1 | - | -2 | 15% | 2 | 5 | 45lbs[/table]

For example, the player Joe wants to design a new set of heavy armor for his Fighter/Wizard. When designing a Heavy Armor, you have 4 slots you may use to customize it, and can take up to 2 points in penalties. You take 4 points of ACP, giving you a total of 6 ACP, and giving you 6 slots to customize the armor with. You then decide you want this armor for a caster, so you spend 3 slots reducing the ASF from 30% to 0%. The character making the armor has an 18 in dexterity so he wants a max dex of 4, letting the armor accommodate this costs another 2 slots. He then uses his last slot on +1 to armor. So the end result is a heavy armor with 4 AC, 4 max dex, no ASF, and 6 ACP. The armor would have a weight of 48 lbs.

There is one other restriction on custom armor: While some armor upgrades (such as elemental resistances and damage resistance) have no cap in how high they may be pushed overall, no armor may have a higher base value than 4 with these properties. So while you can have a Masterwork armor and armor specializabtion and push your fire resistance up to 20, you cannot have a heavy armor with 28 points of fire resist as its default value.

Penalties
As mentioned above, when creating armor, you can apply penalties to the armor to give it extra slots to work with. The penalties you can apply are as follows:

Armor Class Penalty-Your armor is built in a way that restricts your movement to provide better protection elsewhere. For every point of ACP added to your armor, you gain .5 slots to modify the armor.
Bulky-Your armor is designed in a way that makes it particularly bulky, reducing movement speed by 5 even if the armor does not encumber you. This flaw gives you 1 slot to modify your armor.
Crit Vulnerability-Your armor leaves some vital areas vulnerable to provide better protection elsewhere, reducing your armor class against crit confirmations. For every point of Crit Vulnerability applied, you gain .5 slots to modify your armor.
Elemental Vulnerability-Your armor is crafted in such a way that it is more vulnerable to a specific element, to provide better protection elsewhere. For every point of vulnerability applied, you gain .25 slots to modify your armor.
Increased Weight-Your armor is designed to be heavier than normal, to provide more protection. This increases the weight of your armor by 33%. This penalty provides .5 slots to modify your armor.
Noisy-Your armor is built clumsily and generates much more noise when you move than one would expect. You incur a -3 penalty to your move silently checks. This penalty provides .25 slots to modify your armor.
Gaudy-Your armor might be exceptionally shiny, it might be made out of a material that is a strange color, or your armor might just be too bulky to slip into shadows. For whatever reason, an armor with this property incurs a -3 penalty to hide checks. This penalty provides .25 slots to modify your armor.

Seerow
2011-06-11, 02:03 AM
[Section VI] The Economics of Gear


Buying Gear
There are a lot of changes to weapons and armor above, but one thing is conspicuously left out: How hard is it to make or obtain the item? For the most part, you could use the default prices from the books for things from the book. But there are several new weapons, and the new masterwork rules, and all of the weapons have been codified, so you shouldn't be spending more money for a weapon that is functionally equivalent to another weapon. Given that it makes sense for a codification of costs. The costs for weapons and armor are given below:

{table=head]Gear Type | Cost
Simple Light Weapon | 5sp
Simple One-Handed Weapon | 1gp
Simple Two-Handed Weapon | 2gp
Martial Light Weapon | 2gp
Martial One-Handed Weapon | 4gp
Martial Two-Handed Weapon | 8gp
Exotic Light Weapon | 8gp
Exotic One-Handed Weapon | 16gp
Exotic Two-Handed Weapon | 32gp
Light Armor | 30gp
Medium Armor | 60gp
Heavy Armor | 120gp
Buckler | 5gp
Light Shield | 10gp
Heavy Shield | 20gp
Tower Shield | 40gp
Exceptional | +300 gp
Superior | +1800gp
Masterwork | +4300gp[/table]



These costs of upgrading weapon quality are inclusive, so upgrading a weapon that is already Exceptional to Superior costs the difference between the two (1800-300 = 1500gp). This cost, unlike with normal 3.5, is the same for both weapons and armor.


Crafting Gear

Weapons and armor are made with the Weaponsmithing and Armorsmithing skills respectively. These new crafting rules replace the relevant sections of the crafting rules in the PHB.

A simple weapon or light armor has a base DC to craft of 10. This is increased by 5 for a Martial Weapon or Medium Armor, and 5 more for an Exotic Weapon or Heavy Armor. Additionally, every increase in quality of the weapon increases the DC of the craft by 5. So for example, a common martial weapon takes a DC of 15 to craft, but a masterwork heavy armor takes a DC of 35 to craft.

Crafting a piece of weapon or armor has a base timeframe of one week. However, a craftsman may choose to take longer, or try to speed the process up, by modifying the DC of the craft. You may double the time spent working on the item in exchange for reducing the DC by 5. You may do this up to twice, making the item take a month to craft, but reducing the DC by 10.

Alternatively, the craftsman can add +5 to his DC, to halve the time spent crafting. He may do this as many times as he feels necessary. So a crafter could increase his DC by 20 to take the time from 1 week->3.5 days->2 days->1 day->half a day.

Crafting a common weapon out of a special material is harder than crafting one out of common metals. The special materials are harder to work, giving a +5 DC to working with them. However, these materials can be worked into more difficult positions with a skilled touch, so the DC increase from working with a special material is reduced by 2 for every quality above common the craft is (so a exceptional weapon has only a +3 DC, Superior is +1, Masterwork actually gets a -1 to the DC for using the special materials)



The following is a table of Craft DCs/Modifiers:

{table=head]Item | Base DC
Buckler | 5
Simple Weapon | 10
Light Armor | 10
Light Shield | 10
Martial Weapon | 15
Medium Armor | 15
Heavy Shield | 15
Exotic Weapon | 20
Heavy Armor | 20
Tower Shield | 20
Exceptional Quality | +5
Superior Quality | +10
Masterwork Quality | +15
Divide time by 2* | +5
Special Material Common | +5
Special Material Exceptional | +3
Special Material Superior | +1
Special Material Masterwork | -1
Increase time x2 | -5
Increase time x4 | -10[/table]

*=Can be used multiple times, without limit



[Section VII]Gear Related Feats

Simple Weapon Proficiency
Special: This is not a feat. If you have proficiency with at least one simple weapon, you can have all of them. It really isn't a big deal, and I don't care if you decide you like a javelin more than the club you're supposed to start with. If you don't have at least one simple weapon proficiency... then go take a damn class level. Seriously. I mean it.

Martial Weapon Proficiency (Light Weapons)
Prerequisite: Proficiency with a simple light weapon
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all martial light weapons.

Martial Weapon Proficiency (One-Handed Weapons)
Prerequisite: Proficiency with a simple one-handed weapon
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all martial one-handed weapons.

Martial Weapon Proficiency (Two-Handed Weapons)
Prerequisite: Proficiency with a simple two-handed weapon
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all martial two-handed weapons.

Martial Weapon Proficiency (Ranged Weapons)
Prerequisite: Proficiency with a simple ranged weapon
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all martial ranged weapons.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Light Weapons)
Prerequisite: Proficiency with a martial light weapon
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all exotic light weapons.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (One-Handed Weapons)
Prerequisite: Proficiency with a martial one-handed weapon
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all exotic one-handed weapons.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Two-Handed Weapons)
Prerequisite: Proficiency with a martial two-handed weapon
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all exotic two-handed weapons.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Ranged Weapons)
Prerequisite: Proficiency with a martial ranged weapon
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all exotic ranged weapons.

Light Armor Proficiency
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all light armors and bucklers.

Medium Armor Proficiency
Prerequisite: Light Armor Proficiency
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all Medium Armors, and Light Shields

Heavy Armor Proficiency
Prerequisite: Medium Armor Proficiency
Benefit: You gain proficiency with all Heavy Armors, and Heavy Shields.

Tower Shield Proficiency
Prerequisite: Heavy Armor Proficiecny
Benefit: You gain proficiency with Tower Shields.


Weapon Focus
Prerequisite: BAB+1
Benefit: Pick one weapon group you are proficient with (ie One-Handed Martial Weapons). When weilding a weapon of that group, you gain a bonus weapon upgrade slot. At any time you may spend a swift action to change the benefit this upgrade slot provides.

Greater Weapon Focus
Prerequisite: Fighter level 8, Weapon Focus.
Benefit: You gain a second bonus weapon upgrade slot with your chosen weapon group. Additionally, you may now choose to switch your benefit as an immediate action.

Armor Specialization
Benefit: Choose one type of armor you are proficient with. You may ignore one point of ACP per armor category (so ignore 1 for light, 2 for medium, 3 for heavy), and gain one bonus upgrade slot for armor worn of that type. You may shift the benefit of this upgrade slot as a swift action.

Greater Armor Specialization
Prerequisite: Armor Specialization
Benefit: Your armor check penalty is reduced by an additional 1 point, and you gain an extra bonus upgrade slot when wearing armor of the appropriate type. You may now choose to switch the benefit of your Armor Specialization upgrade slots as an immediate action.

DoomHat
2011-06-11, 02:42 AM
This is pretty cool.
Here's a little bit of a non sequitur, but have you given any thought to making your setting one with more magic, but fewer magicians?
By that I mean, superstitions are simply real. Magic is so ubiquitous that they don't have a name for it.
I bring it up because it might be interesting to be able to (for example) add the damage type "Burning" to a weapon simply through 'mundane' exquisite craftsmanship. You could feed into Japanese legends about cursed swords with supernatural properties and possess those properties for down to earth reasons like, "They say the craftsman used to much fire and to dark a silk in its making"

Seerow
2011-06-11, 11:01 AM
This is pretty cool.
Here's a little bit of a non sequitur, but have you given any thought to making your setting one with more magic, but fewer magicians?
By that I mean, superstitions are simply real. Magic is so ubiquitous that they don't have a name for it.
I bring it up because it might be interesting to be able to (for example) add the damage type "Burning" to a weapon simply through 'mundane' exquisite craftsmanship. You could feed into Japanese legends about cursed swords with supernatural properties and possess those properties for down to earth reasons like, "They say the craftsman used to much fire and to dark a silk in its making"

I was actually thinking about stuff like that coming from the special materials, so they still exist, but you only have one at a time. The rest of the stuff comes from within, some mix of ability and spirit.

The main end intent is to reduce the christmas tree effect and have a system where you can effectively eschew wealth by level, and use magic items for what I've always felt they should be: Really special objects that make an impact on how your character works.

Making it so mundane people could enchant weapons with multiple effects like the current magic item system works, just without magic, it doesn't really solve the issue that everyone needs really expensive and rare weapons... just changes the flavor slightly.

Mulletmanalive
2011-06-12, 11:43 AM
Saingham and Sai should be Finessable, Sai really don't fly all that well compared to daggers and Saingham DO actually fly pretty well, at least over short distances being basically oversized spike shuriken.

Come to that, most Monk weapons should be finessable by D&D's logic [or is that a quality of the Monk weapons type?]

Most of the rest are almost identical to the stats I assigned weapons in my home system [where they had to cope with armour as DR so the damage went up a bit] and conincides with the crafting mechanic I already have in place. Spooky :smallcool:

Lateral
2011-06-12, 11:58 AM
This is really cool, although the 'creating a new weapon' thing is fairly abusable; I could make a MW 2-handed weapon that has reach, threaten adjacent, trip, and a +30 to Tripping checks.

That said, you do have the DM- adjucation line there, so it's fine. Just something to note.

Seerow
2011-06-12, 04:54 PM
Saingham and Sai should be Finessable

Both are finessible by virtue of being light weapons. Weapon finesse applies to all light weapons, and then specific other weapons that have the property specifically, per the feat.


Sai really don't fly all that well compared to daggers and Saingham DO actually fly pretty well, at least over short distances being basically oversized spike shuriken.

I was going by the default stats that had the Sai as a throwing weapon (though with 10ft range). Are you saying the stats on the two should be basically reversed?


Come to that, most Monk weapons should be finessable by D&D's logic [or is that a quality of the Monk weapons type?]

I think the only one that's not finessible is the quarterstaff.


Most of the rest are almost identical to the stats I assigned weapons in my home system [where they had to cope with armour as DR so the damage went up a bit] and conincides with the crafting mechanic I already have in place. Spooky :smallcool:

Spooky indeed.


This is really cool, although the 'creating a new weapon' thing is fairly abusable; I could make a MW 2-handed weapon that has reach, threaten adjacent, trip, and a +30 to Tripping checks.


Should only be able to increase a given maneuver twice (for a +4 for 1 point). I'll make that clear in the text. So at that point you have your +4 to trip, and have another 6.5 points to spend elsewhere (for higher crit, damage, bonuses to other maneuvers, extra damage types, etc). And you'd still have to pay the feat for the exotic weapon proficiency. And of course as you note, new weapons are something the DM should adjucate carefully, to prevent any serious abuses I haven't foreseen.

Mulletmanalive
2011-06-12, 05:38 PM
Looking at it, i'd probably have the Saigham be a 1d8, x3, Range 30ft weapon, or a 1d8, 19/x3, range 10ft weapon.

The sai, heck, why not keep it as it is and just go with the Elektra-ness of it all.

I only really know about saigham because they're about the only martial arts weapons [aside from dark judge brushes, which are basically the same thing] that i can wield in pairs without hurting myself... Thinking about it, I kinda suck at martial arts :smalltongue:

Seerow
2011-06-12, 06:07 PM
Looking at it, i'd probably have the Saigham be a 1d8, x3, Range 30ft weapon, or a 1d8, 19/x3, range 10ft weapon.

The sai, heck, why not keep it as it is and just go with the Elektra-ness of it all.

How's how I made it now?

Saigham went to 2d4x 3 with 30ft (19-20x3 would have gone over cost, since a 19-20x3 costs 3 slots). Sai dropped down to 10ft throwing range, and got kicked up to a d6.

The nunchaku seem really close to the sai now, with their only difference being crit. Is that enough to differentiate them? I was considering switching nunchaku's bonus to disarm to bonus to trip, but I'm not sure how well that fits with the weapon.

Mulletmanalive
2011-06-12, 06:26 PM
Their use is mostly pain; i've never actually seen anyone use them for anything other than consussing people in real martial arts. [Ok, you can, disarm stuff but it's not great to pit chain against a blade and it requires two hands]

I know they were given the disarm bonus in core but i'd either up their damage or give them a bonus on attacks of opportunity [if you can price that at a 1 slot, +2 to hit maybe?] because they're fast and really difficult to block.

If you go with the attacks of opportunity thing, another really fast weapon is the hanbo, which is basically a club wielded in a different way. Monk weapon, pretty solid defensively and fast.

Lateral
2011-06-12, 06:28 PM
Should only be able to increase a given maneuver twice (for a +4 for 1 point). I'll make that clear in the text. So at that point you have your +4 to trip, and have another 6.5 points to spend elsewhere (for higher crit, damage, bonuses to other maneuvers, extra damage types, etc). And you'd still have to pay the feat for the exotic weapon proficiency. And of course as you note, new weapons are something the DM should adjucate carefully, to prevent any serious abuses I haven't foreseen.

Ah. That makes far more sense, and there aren't really any other easily-observed abuses. Only other thing is that I don't really think 'able to do nonlethal damage' warrants a full +1- maybe a +.5; it's not exactly as strong as a Reach weapon, after all.

Seerow
2011-06-12, 06:31 PM
So maybe drop nunchaku back to what I had for the saingham originally (2d6 damage light weapon with a decent crit), making it the go-to weapon for pain? Makes as much sense to me as anything else.


Being able to apply a bonus to AoOs seems like a cool effect that would be nice to add, and I think I will add it to the options, but like bonuses to bull rush, grapple, and sunder, I don't want to add it to any of the core weapons. I think I will add that to the list of potential abilities that you can add in for .5, like bonus to combat maneuvers, as a masterwork weapon, and now that I think about it, a bonus on crit confirmation rolls also seems like a good option to add to that list.


Ah. That makes far more sense, and there aren't really any other easily-observed abuses. Only other thing is that I don't really think 'able to do nonlethal damage' warrants a full +1- maybe a +.5; it's not exactly as strong as a Reach weapon, after all.


Well nonlethal damage normally imposes a -4 penalty, and there's only one core weapon that ignores it. I guess I could make it .5, but then what would the sap gain for that extra .5 points leftover?



edit: Random thought-what if nonlethal damage were free, but the ability to switch between lethal and nonlethal at will costs 1? That way the sap doesn't have to deal with half slots, as it's nonlethal only, but someone who wants a masterwork greatsword that is forged in such a way to make hitting someone with the flat of the blade not totally unwieldy, they have to pay for it.

Lateral
2011-06-12, 06:42 PM
Ease of concealment or +2 disarm, probably.

Edit: Actually, what you said works even better.

averagejoe
2011-06-12, 08:25 PM
I like this a lot. It's a really nice, elegant idea, and I'm generally in favor of any efforts to make less christmas tree-ing.

A couple things. It would be helpful to point out which properties apply to range weapons, which apply only to range weapons, and so on. Some are obvious, but some (for example, "Can be used to trip") aren't. There's also an issue of choosing damage type or the, "Additional damage type," property; this seems to be a property of ammunition, not of a bow/crossbow.

Seerow
2011-06-12, 08:31 PM
I like this a lot. It's a really nice, elegant idea, and I'm generally in favor of any efforts to make less christmas tree-ing.

I think you'll like the latter half of it when I get around to finishing/posting it then. (I'm working on a half dozen things at once which leads me to be pretty slow at all of them... alas). This portion alone is basically just rebalancing weapons, reducing the christmas tree effect comes next, then the third step (the hardest part) is making the remaining magic items useful without needing a full WBL worth of them.


A couple things. It would be helpful to point out which properties apply to range weapons, which apply only to range weapons, and so on. Some are obvious, but some (for example, "Can be used to trip") aren't. There's also an issue of choosing damage type or the, "Additional damage type," property; this seems to be a property of ammunition, not of a bow/crossbow.

Good point. I think I can add two new columns to the table to indicate what can be used by what. That said I'm not sure that "can be used to trip" shouldn't be available to ranged. Isn't that basically what a bola is after all? If someone wants to invent a bow that shoots bola rounds or something, go nuts. Hell in my weapon styles feats I already have a feat that lets ranged weapons use any combat maneuver they like.

As for the additional damage type however, ironically enough in the core rules damage type is determined by the weapon, not the ammunition. Check the SRD, the bow is listed as piercing damage, while the arrow has - in that spot. Seriously. It might be something worth changing, but seems like a needless complication when the same thing could be gotten across either way. (though some customization options exclusive to masterwork ammunition may be in order, I'd have to be careful to avoid stepping on the toes of what the weapon itself can do)


edit: Updated the table. Only one I wasn't sure about was disallowing a double ranged weapon. I mean I could easily see a two handed crossbow firing two things at once being treated as a double weapon... but then again that's just asking for abuse, so probably better to just say no, and let the person pick up two hand crossbows.

averagejoe
2011-06-12, 08:57 PM
As for the additional damage type however, ironically enough in the core rules damage type is determined by the weapon, not the ammunition. Check the SRD, the bow is listed as piercing damage, while the arrow has - in that spot. Seriously. It might be something worth changing, but seems like a needless complication when the same thing could be gotten across either way. (though some customization options exclusive to masterwork ammunition may be in order, I'd have to be careful to avoid stepping on the toes of what the weapon itself can do)

>.> I never noticed that. The SRD strikes again. But, yeah, if that's how it already is, no need to create more rules. I like how usable out-of-the box this is. I see a lot of homebrew projects that I like in theory, but are so complex/personalized that it seems like a lot of work to make them usable.

bryn0528
2011-06-12, 09:11 PM
What? You mean I can't have a crossbow with reach? How lame.

But, on a serious note, I came across a confusing conundrum. When creating a new custom weapon, you gain additional slots for a weapon being one-handed or two-handed. Normally this isn't a problem, but you can get an upgrade for a crossbow to make it one-handed. Does this affect slots? I imagine it wouldn't, but maybe this should be specified.

Seerow
2011-06-12, 09:27 PM
What? You mean I can't have a crossbow with reach? How lame.

But, on a serious note, I came across a confusing conundrum. When creating a new custom weapon, you gain additional slots for a weapon being one-handed or two-handed. Normally this isn't a problem, but you can get an upgrade for a crossbow to make it one-handed. Does this affect slots? I imagine it wouldn't, but maybe this should be specified.

The idea is that One Handed and Two Handed are melee only specifications. Crossbow and Bow are separate classifications. You don't select "Two Handed Crossbow" for +4 slots, you select "Crossbow" for 2 slots. You can then opt to spend 2 slots to make it a 1-hand crossbow.

I'll see if I can edit the OP to make that clearer.

Seerow
2011-06-13, 05:22 PM
Sword-Chucks yo


Swordchucks are a masterwork exotic two handed weapon:

1d8/1d8 19-20x2 . Double Weapon, inclusive reach, finessible can trip, +2 to trip attempts, +4 to crit confirmation rolls.


Just decided this needed to be added for posterity.

Lateral
2011-06-13, 07:14 PM
Niiice.

They're swords, though, so I'd take out Finessible and replace with a +2 to Disarm and a +2 to opportunity attacks.

averagejoe
2011-06-13, 07:21 PM
Yeah, sword-chucks don't exactly scream, "Finesse," to me, chain weapon or not. Though it probably helps.

What about pricing on these weapons? Is that just up to the GM?

Seerow
2011-06-13, 07:42 PM
Really, no finesse? I figured as a chain weapon it really would fit, and also lends to the absurdity that is swordchucks. I could see exchanging the finesse for other benefits.

As for pricing, yeah I'd say GM discretion, simply because the core costs don't seem to have any balance ramifications, and are there just to have something there.

If I were going to assign costs, I'd personally be inclined to standardize weapon prices. If I was going to go into pricing I'd make it something like:

Simple-1 gold
Martial-5 gold
Exotic-20 gold

With a x1.5 multiplier for a one handed or ranged weapon, or a x2 multiplier for a two handed weapon.


But I also figured such standardized pricing would be too far from the norm, relative to the rest of it and didn't have any real meaningful impact, so didn't bother.

jvluso
2011-06-13, 08:14 PM
I really like this system. A few things:

The main point of standardized prices is for the craft skill.
Also, is there anything beyond masterwork for additional points?

And the whip would probably be:
exotic 1-handed 9 points
reach+adjacent for a one handed -6 points
can be used to trip -1 point
+4 trip and disarm -2 points
non-leathal -0 points

Seerow
2011-06-13, 08:29 PM
The main point of standardized prices is for the craft skill.

I suppose that makes sense, I admit to usually handwaiving the crafting rules, so don't have a lot of experience with that. So if you, or anyone else, wants to give input on what would be appropriate, I'll listen and may stick it in the first post.


Also, is there anything beyond masterwork for additional points?

I noted in the first post that I intend to go through the list of special materials and make special properties for them, and give a couple extra slots. A material with a good property might only gain 1 bonus slot, a meh property or situational property may get 2 slots. There may be a single one with no property that gets 3 slots.


And the whip would probably be:
exotic 1-handed 9 points
reach+adjacent for a one handed -6 points
can be used to trip -1 point
+4 trip and disarm -2 points
non-leathal -0 points

To be clear an exotic one handed weapon has 7 points, unless masterwork, then it has 9. Also can be used to trip is only .5 points, so a masterwork whip would have an extra .5 points to spend.


But the reason I didn't stat the whip was because some people may for some reason enjoy the current incarnation (where it acts as some weird ranged melee weapon with 15ft reach that only damaged unarmored targets), and I didn't want to try to quantify such a strange and unique quality, so I figured it would be best to leave it alone. You can of course create an alternate version of the whip as you did if you do not like the normal version.



Edit: Working on the Special Materials and Armor Upgrade rules now. Those should be up within a couple hours. Also, should I add the ability to add +1 to hit with a weapon for 2 upgrade slots? It would be useless once magic weapons/inherent enhancement bonuses come online, but for people who want that +1 to hit at low level, may as well leave the option there for them.

Seerow
2011-06-14, 11:25 AM
Armor mods are up now, as are the Adamantine style metals. Still working on Cold Iron/Silver

Dryad
2011-06-14, 11:56 AM
Seerow: *curtsies* That's all. ^_^

Seerow
2011-06-14, 12:41 PM
Seerow: *curtsies* That's all. ^_^

I take that as a good sign :smallbiggrin:




Anyway updated again, about half the Silver/Cold Iron stuff is up, but I'm drawing blanks on what sorts of properties to add that don't seem out of place, especially for armor. I think I need to go splat diving for some other properties.

edit: Okay, finished updating the properties in. I'm still not certain on all of them, so if anything looks out of place or wrong, point it out, and I am more than open to suggestions for alternate properties that you feel would make more sense.

Gideon Falcon
2011-06-14, 02:03 PM
So much awesomeness...

Just to make sure, when it says mithral weapons gain the speed property, does that mean the +3 bonus equivalent ability to gain an extra attack on any full attack?

Seerow
2011-06-14, 02:07 PM
So much awesomeness...

Just to make sure, when it says mithral weapons gain the speed property, does that mean the +3 bonus equivalent ability to gain an extra attack on any full attack?

Yes that was the intent, though looking at it compared to the others that does seem to be a fair bit better than the other weapon properties, given most of the others are +1-2 enhancements.

Gideon Falcon
2011-06-14, 05:27 PM
Well, at least it isn't splitting, which has the same cost as speed but gives you an extra attack for every successful attack you make! In other words, you can up to double your attacks. I don't have the supplement it's from, though, so I don't know exactly how it works.

Seerow
2011-06-14, 05:34 PM
Well, at least it isn't splitting, which has the same cost as speed but gives you an extra attack for every successful attack you make! In other words, you can up to double your attacks. I don't have the supplement it's from, though, so I don't know exactly how it works.

Yeah splitting is awesome, and ranged only.

Any suggestions for things that seem overbalanced or need to be changed?

Jjeinn-tae
2011-06-14, 06:02 PM
I've liked this so far, though with masterwork relating with special materials... I'm assuming that you use the general special materials are automatically masterwork; do they get the bonus slots for it?

Gideon Falcon
2011-06-14, 06:05 PM
Splitting is a ranged only ability? Seriously? Wow. That actually negates one of the major premises of a MWF build I once made.

Seerow
2011-06-14, 06:14 PM
I've liked this so far, though with masterwork relating with special materials... I'm assuming that you use the general special materials are automatically masterwork; do they get the bonus slots for it?


Yes, you get the benefits of masterwork in addition to the bonus from the materials. So if you have a Masterwork Adamantine Longsword, you have 5 bonus upgrade slots to play with.

The intent is, you get the basic weapon, it's about on par with what it normally is, maybe slightly stronger. You get masterwork around level 2, and instead of a generic +1 to hit, you can customize your weapon/armor a bit. Then around level 5-6 special materials start coming online, and you can make your gear truly your own, with further customization/power potential. Beyond that point, the focus should be more on the character and their abilities than the gear.



Splitting is a ranged only ability? Seriously? Wow. That actually negates one of the major premises of a MWF build I once made.


Hah, yeah. I believe it even only applies to bows and crossbows. It's out of Champions of Ruin.

On the upside, while it killed the MWF build you made, it makes a Arrow Demon with 2 splitting bows downright scary.

Gideon Falcon
2011-06-14, 07:56 PM
Just a side note, the thing with the composite bows is that they are unrealistic. They have worse range than normal bows, because they are designed to be on the same level. Composite bows are supposed to be a level up from normal ones, which is why they cost so much more. In real life, unless I am mistaken, composite bows have a higher range than normal ones, as in normal 3.5 core.

Seerow
2011-06-14, 08:33 PM
Just a side note, the thing with the composite bows is that they are unrealistic. They have worse range than normal bows, because they are designed to be on the same level. Composite bows are supposed to be a level up from normal ones, which is why they cost so much more. In real life, unless I am mistaken, composite bows have a higher range than normal ones, as in normal 3.5 core.

I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but that is part of what made the D&D weapons borked in the first place, two weapons that are supposed to be the same proficiency level, yet one is strictly superior to the other.

I suppose I could remove composite bows altogether, and make a note that composite bows are masterwork bows that pick up an extra range and str to damage quality.

Gideon Falcon
2011-06-14, 11:05 PM
That works much better, being what the composite bows were originally supposed to be. They were basically the same weapon, but made better. That's why they were the same proficiency level, but the composite bows racked their prices up fast in order to apply any significant strength bonus.

Seerow
2011-06-14, 11:34 PM
That works much better, being what the composite bows were originally supposed to be. They were basically the same weapon, but made better. That's why they were the same proficiency level, but the composite bows racked their prices up fast in order to apply any significant strength bonus.

I updated to that effect.

I also changed the shortbow slightly, bumping its damage up to the same as the Longbow, with a higher crit damage, to compensate the Longbow's longer range.

I figured if we're worrying about realism, that a shortbow with more range than a longbow makes no sense, but the shortbow packing more potential punch in closer quarters while the longbow has more range makes a bit more sense. Not a whole lot more, but longbow/shortbow is another case where them being the same proficiency category makes it hard to differentiate them meaningfully/realistically. I'm almost tempted to make shortbow a simple weapon, but I get the feeling that's even more unrealistic.

The Black Staff
2011-06-15, 06:27 PM
You could totally use a system like this to make a better magic system... hm...

Anyhoo, this looks cool. :smallcool:

Cieyrin
2011-06-17, 02:14 PM
Hey, neat system that I think does mostly what you claim it does, that is better balance out weapons against one another according to weapon category.

I say mostly, as there are a couple of things in the system when you converted the core weapons that are off or just don't plain work. I spent a good couple hours going through the custom weapon system to see how you came to the end results that you did and it tends to work out as intended. There are a couple things here and there that are kinda fugly, though, as my raw data can show (which I'll spoiler, since it's pretty extensive).


Light Simple Melee (2)
Dagger: d4 x2 10' Piercing or Slashing (Concealable [.5], Throwable [1], Extra Damage Type [.5] = 2)
Punching Dagger: d6 x3 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 2)
Spiked Gauntlet: d6 x2 Piercing or Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1] = 2)
Light Mace: d6 x3 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 2)
Sickle: d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 2)

One-Handed Simple Melee (3)
Club: d8 x2 10' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Throwable [1] = 3)
Heavy Mace: d8 x3 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 3)
Morningstar: d8 x2 Bludgeoning and Piercing (Extra Damage Type (And) [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2] = 3)
Javelin/Shortspear*: d6 x2 30' Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Throwable [1], Increase Range [1] = 3)

Two-Handed Simple Melee (4)
Longspear*: d6 x3 Piercing (Set [.5], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 4)
Quarterstaff: d6/d6 x2 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Monk Weapon [1], Double Weapon [2] = 4)
Spear*: d8 x3 Piercing (Set [.5], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Increase Damage x2(d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 4)

Ranged Simple
Heavy Crossbow: d10 19-20/x2 80' Piercing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 4)
Light Crossbow: d8 19-20/x2 100' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Range [1] = 4)
Sling*: d6 x2 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Strength to Damage [1] = 4)

Light Martial Melee (3)
Throwing Axe: d6 x3 10' Slashing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Throwable [1] = 3)
Light Hammer: d6 x2 30' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6), Throwable [1], Increase Range [1] = 3)
Handaxe: d8 x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 3)
Kukri*: d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2] = 3)
Light Pick*: d6 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 3)
Sap: d8 x3 Bludgeoning (Subdual Only [0], Increase Damage x2 (1d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 3)
Short Sword: d8 19-20/x2 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (1d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 3)

One-Handed Martial Melee (4)
Battleaxe: d10 x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod [1] = 4)
Flail: d8 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 4)
Longsword: d10 19-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 4)
Heavy Pick*: d8 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 4)
Rapier*: d6 18-20/x2 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Scimitar*: d6 18-20/x2 Slashing ((Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Trident*: d8 x2 10' Piercing (+2 Crit Confirm [.5], Set [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Throwable [1] = 4)
Warhammer: d10 x3 Bldugeoning (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 4)

Two-Handed Martial Melee (5)
Falchion*: 2d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 6)
Heavy Flail: d10 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 5)
Glaive: d10 x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 5)
Greataxe: d12 x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x4 (d12) [4], Increase Crit Mod x3 [1] = 5)
Greatclub: 2d6 x3 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Mod x3 [1] = 5)
Greatsword: 2d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 5)
Guisarme*: 2d4 x3 Slashing (Tripper [.5], +2 Trip [.5], Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 5)
Halberd*: d10 x3 Slashing or Piercing (Set [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 5)
Lance: d8 x3 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Mounted Charge [1], Reach [1] = 5)
Ranseur: 2d4 x3 Piercing (+4 Disarm [1], Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 5)
Scythe: 2d4 x4 Slashing or Piercing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 5)

Ranged Martial
Longbow: d8 x3 90' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Range [1] = 4)
Shortbow*: d8 x3 70' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Mounted Archer [1] = 4)

Light Exotic Melee (6)
Kama: d8 x4 Slashing (Tripper [.5], +2 Trip [.5]Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Monk [1] = 6)
Nunchaku: 2d6 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Monk [1] = 6)
Sai*: d6 19-20/x3 Bludgeoning (+4 Disarm [1], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Monk [1] = 6)
Siangham: 2d4 x3 30' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Throwable [1], Increase Range [1], Monk [1] = 6)

One-Handed Exotic Melee (7)
Bastard Sword: 2d6 19-20/x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2] = 7)
Dwarven Waraxe: d10 19-20/x4 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 7)

Two-Handed Exotic Melee (8)
Orc Double Axe: d10/d10 19-20/x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Meteor Hammer: 2d4 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], +4 Trip [1], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Finessable [1], Flexible Reach [2] = 8)
Dire Flail: d12/d12 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x4 (d12) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) (1), Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Gnome Hooked Hammer*: d6/d6 19-20/x4 Bludgeoning or Piercing (Tripper [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Two-Bladed Sword: d10/d10 19-20/x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Dwarven Urgrosh*: d8/d8 19-20/x3 Slashing or Piercing (Set [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Minotaur Greathammer: 2d6 19-20/x4 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 8)
Goliath Greataxe: 3d6 x4 Slashing (Increase Damage x4 (1d12) [4], Heavy Damage (3d6) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 8)

Ranged Exotic
Hand Crossbow: d8 19-20/x2 80' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], One Handed [2], Easy Loading [3] = 8)
Heavy Repeating Crossbow: d10 19-20/x3 80' Piercing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Repeating [2] = 8)
Light Repeating Crossbow: d8 19-20/x2 100' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Increase Range [1], Repeating [2] = 8)
Greatbow: 2d6 x4 90' Piercing (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Increase Range [1] = 7)
Arbalest: d12 18-20/x2 100' Piercing (Increase Damage x4 (d12) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Increase Range [1] = 8)
Shuriken: d4 19-20/x4 30' Piercing (Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Increase Range [1], Monk [1] = 6)

Sword-Chucks: d8/d8 19-20/x2 Slashing (+2 Trip [.5], Tripper [.5], +4 Crit Confirm [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Range (19-20) [1], Finessable [1], Flexible Reach [2], Double Weapon [2] = 10) EMTM
Whip: d4 x2 Slashing (Nonlethal only [0], +2 Disarm (.5), Tripper (.5), Flexible Reach [2x3=6] = 7) EOM
Whip-Dagger: d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (+2 Disarm (.5), Tripper (.5), Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Flexible Reach [2x3=6] = 9) EMOM
Fullblade: 2d8 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Heavy Damage (2d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1] = 8) ETM
Bolas: d8 19-20/x2 30' Bludgeoning (Nonlethal Only [0], +2 Trip [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increased Range [1], Strength to Damage [1] = 6) ER
Talenta Sharrash: d10 19-20/x4 Slashing (+4 Crit Confirm [1], +2 Trip [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Reach[1], Increased Crit Range (19-20) [1x2=2], Increased Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increased Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 10) EMTM
Halfling War Sling: d6 x4 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Strength to Damage [1] = 6) ER

The weapons marked with asterisks is where things go astray, either by something skipped or something being off. Some of this is just my personal opinion on how much things should cost or tweaking weapons, as I found that a lot of exotics tweaked out their crit ranges, as-if you just didn't know where to put points by that time, which very well may be. Let me get into the first bits and then see if I can organize the data to be more legible.

The first thing is on the work of Set, that is, setting your weapon against a charge for double damage. Frankly, I've never seen anyone ever do it, even if it is neat and historically accurate. Generally, when there's two groups at charge range from one another, it kinda devolves down to who has initiative and can charge first, bringing the hurt to the other guys before they can do the same to you, rather than waiting for their charge. It leads me to thinking it shouldn't be worth a full point but half of one, considering that the closest parallel, Mounted Charger, which is held by lances, actually happens on any sort of basis. The affected weapons (halberd, longspear, spear and trident) I gave +2 Crit Confirm to make up for the gap, except halberd, which needed the half point for something else. I see it as an Impaling effect as my reasoning for going that way.

Next bit is a short thing on Shortspears and Javelins, as I don't see why you have them separate in your system, as they're identical stat-wise. The difference in Core is only that shortspears were shorter ranged but didn't take a penalty for using 'em in melee, which doesn't exist in your system. I'd just as well get rid of shortspears and just call them all javelins.

Next on the chopping block is slings. I have no idea how you came to their stats, as they have twice as many points to them than they should, going by your system. My only guess is they got the two-handed weapon bonus, in which case Strength to Damage would be instead Throwable. I rather favor slings, personally, and find that d20 tends to look unfavorably on them in general, when they're much more dangerous than most would admit, considering people generally think of bows in high fantasy.

Nextly, we have kukris and light picks. They're fine as-is, it's more to do with how crit range and modifier modifications are applied, which is internally inconsistent with how damage is increased. Throughout my data, I considered each modification a separate feature, which is as follows: Increase Crit Threat (19-20) = 1 slot, Increase Crit Threat (18-20) = 2 slots, Increase Crit Mod (x3) = 1 slot, Increase Crit Mod (x4) = 1 slot. When adding them on, just make sure you have the prerequisites and when applying both, total threat range and mod to determine which gets doubled. /OCD

In martial one-handers, Heavy Picks as you presented are identical to Light Picks, leaving them a point short, which should probably increase damage another step so you have a reason to use them, as otherwise, you'd just finesse Light Picks.

Another major upset is with rapiers, scimitars and falchions. They all go over budget in points from adding finessable to the mix. If you reduce damage to make up for this cost, rapiers and scimitars are identical stat-wise to kukris. I'm not sure how to rectify this, other than reducing the cost of Crit Threat (18-20) to 1 slot, though that leads to other quirks, especially in exotic weapons.

Simple error: Guisarmes had a bonus to trip but couldn't be used to trip. Just a forgotten note, as there's points to do so.

Halberds got the squeeze bad in this system, which is unfortunate, given how awesome halberds are supposed to be and they get further nerfed. My change to Set's value allowed halberds to get back their choice of piercing or slashing damage, which should be there, as any medieval history buff should be able to tell you that a halberd has 4 striking surfaces: The tip, the blade, the spike at the base of the halberd and the inner point on the blade, which can be used to pull back towards the user, which is where the tripping the Core version has comes in. A Masterwork version would probably gain Tripper, +2 Trip and Reach, I'd imagine, provided one didn't just jump to a Dwarven Warpike, which is what a Halberd should have been.

The change with shortbows, since I don't see a reason they should be that much more deadly than longbows when it comes to hitting somebody in the kidney, is bringing up the fact that you can actually shoot a shortbow from horseback, something that can't be done with an unwieldy longbow, greatbow, crossbow or any other non-throwing weapon. Hence, why I traded out the crit increase for a new ability, Mounted Archer.

The sai had too many points, so I dropped Throwable from it, as Mulletmanalive suggested that sais aren't very aerodynamic, anyways. I think it's due to forgetting the cost multiplication that increasing both sides of the crit capability incurs.

Gnome Hooked Hammers lost the trip bonus, due to the extra damage type being forgotten. I checked to see if there was something special about double weapons getting separate damage types but didn't see anything of the sort, so that's where we are there.

The Urgrosh had a major cost overrun with the crit mod, so that got removed. They also lost the Tripper bonus, which was never part of Urgroshes, as the weapon's design is aimed at using the axe side mostly and using the spear for finishing downed enemies quickly. I'm not sure where it became an implement of tripping, really. It's back down to 8 points from 10, which benefited from the Set cost reduction as well.

The rest of the data is just tweaks to weapons, like creating specifically heavy and light repeating crossbows, making all hand-crossbows easy reload (pretty distinctive there and has a bit of precedence with Hand Crossbow Focus, anyways), heavily redesigning the Greatbow to be a better longbow and leaving room for the composite (aka masterwork) version. I also through the first new weapon I made using the system, based on the great crossbow (which I just call an arbalest, since that sounds cooler and breaks with the 'adjective' bow naming convention :smalltongue:).

The last block is recreating additional weapons, including whips and bolas, which work fine in your system without tweaks. The end codes are just defining what kind of weapon they are for how many points they have. The Whip-Dagger and Sharrash are masterworks, like Sword-chucks, so that they could work as defined, pre-errata, even.

My last thing of note is I'm curious how ammunition works in your system, as that's half the fun of being an archer, is being able to have different ammo for different situations.

Despite the overanalysis above, I'm still highly impressed with your weapon system and I'll be tooling around with it to see what other weapons I can bring over from other source books (Planar Handbook, Secrets of Sarlona and Arms and Equipment Guide, I'm looking at you :smallcool:). Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Seerow
2011-06-17, 02:27 PM
Despite the overanalysis above, I'm still highly impressed with your weapon system and I'll be tooling around with it to see what other weapons I can bring over from other source books (Planar Handbook, Secrets of Sarlona and Arms and Equipment Guide, I'm looking at you ). Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.


I appreciate the overanalysis. I apparently messed up on my mental math in several places, and I appreciate having someone double check my work.

I'll give a more in depth response and likely updates once I've had time to digest all of that. It'll prolly be later tonight.


Also any thought on the special materials and how they measure up, or the masterwork armor properties? I recognize those are a bigger departure from how things normally work, so may not be as interesting, but I'd appreciate some commentary on those.

Cieyrin
2011-06-17, 03:46 PM
I appreciate the overanalysis. I apparently messed up on my mental math in several places, and I appreciate having someone double check my work.

I'll give a more in depth response and likely updates once I've had time to digest all of that. It'll prolly be later tonight.


Also any thought on the special materials and how they measure up, or the masterwork armor properties? I recognize those are a bigger departure from how things normally work, so may not be as interesting, but I'd appreciate some commentary on those.

I'll see what I can do with armor and materials, as the custom weapon list made it fairly easy to lay out what to look at. Just from a brief analsis, masterworking seems able to make armor check penalty a non-issue if you invest enough slots into it, given Masterwork Full Plate with all the slots thrown at reducing ACP completely removes it. I'll futz about with some of the published exotic armors to see how play with your system, too, or at least see if I can go from core to them.

Seerow
2011-06-17, 06:01 PM
I'll see what I can do with armor and materials, as the custom weapon list made it fairly easy to lay out what to look at. Just from a brief analsis, masterworking seems able to make armor check penalty a non-issue if you invest enough slots into it, given Masterwork Full Plate with all the slots thrown at reducing ACP completely removes it. I'll futz about with some of the published exotic armors to see how play with your system, too, or at least see if I can go from core to them.

Yeah, the exotic armors will probably end up being stronger almost universally, like the exotic weapons wound up being. I'd be more interested in if anything seems out of place, or too strong relative to the others, etc.


Anyway, back to your other post:

Reading over your list, it seems that you highlighted not just ones I went overboard on, but also ones with the set against charge property that you modified. I'm going to just pull the ones you have highlighted out of the list:


Changed due to set:
Longspear*: d6 x3 Piercing (Set [.5], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 4)
Spear*: d8 x3 Piercing (Set [.5], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Increase Damage x2(d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 4)
Scimitar*: d6 18-20/x2 Slashing ((Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Trident*: d8 x2 10' Piercing (+2 Crit Confirm [.5], Set [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Throwable [1] = 4)
Guisarme*: 2d4 x3 Slashing (Tripper [.5], +2 Trip [.5], Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 5)
Halberd*: d10 x3 Slashing or Piercing (Set [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 5)

Wrong Point Values:
Sling*: d6 x2 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Strength to Damage [1] = 4)
Rapier*: d6 18-20/x2 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Scimitar*: d6 18-20/x2 Slashing ((Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Falchion*: 2d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 6)

Sling: I messed up pretty badly there, and went pretty arbitrary since it was the only real weapon of its type. I also didn't realize slings normally get str to damage, so didn't account for that. Redesigning it to fit its limits as a simple weapon (thus only 2 slots) would probably be d4x2 30ft Bludgeoning (increase range x1, str to damage = 2)

Rapier: I'm not sure how I messed this one up. You're right that dropping it down to a d4 makes it basically a kukri clone, I guess that's the problem with 1-handed finessible weapons, light weapons basically have finessible for free, so spending your 1 bonus slot on finessible makes you identical to the light weapon. The rapier would still have the ability to wield two handed technically, but that's kind of silly. I'm kind of tempted to bump rapier down to exotic so it can be made stronger, alternatively make finessible only .5 slots, so that it at least gets some minor benefit, if not the full extra damage die but do you have any other ideas?

Scimitar: Same as Rapier

Falchion: Another one that it looks like I just forgot to add finessible. Did I get any of these right?


Unsure Why Flagged:
Kukri*: d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2] = 3)
Light Pick*: d6 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 3)
Heavy Pick*: d8 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 4)
Shortbow*: d8 x3 70' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Mounted Archer [1] = 4)
Sai*: d6 19-20/x3 Bludgeoning (+4 Disarm [1], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Monk [1] = 6)
Dwarven Urgrosh*: d8/d8 19-20/x3 Slashing or Piercing (Set [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Double Weapon [2] = 8)

These are flagged with your *, but they add up to where they should be as far as I can tell.

Okay, that's just from going down the list. I'm guessing your post explains why the ones I was uncertain on are flagged. Let's see!



First point: Setting a weapon against a charge costs too much. I can agree with that, I didn't really think about it in those terms (also added it before I decided to include half slot costs, and didn't think to include it in the reduction). Personally, I use it more than you seem to think is the norm, but that is likely just me, especially in any sort of optimized play (or anything where there is decent levels of mobility or pounce available). I think reducing the cost is perfectly reasonable in this case though.

Second Point: Shortspears and Javelins. Yeah, I was actually looking out for things like that that wound up identical to separate them... somehow I missed this one. You say eliminate the shortspear, I'm curious if there's anything that could be done to make the shortpspear different? Like make the shortspear only 10' range, but can be set against a charge and has +2 to crit confirms or something.

Third Point: You don't like how the crit costs are presented. That can be fixed easily enough, I figured the way I had it would be easier than having to add a bit explaining prerequisites and whatnot. At least that explains why those two weapons were flagged.

Fourth Point: Finessible One-Handers suck. They are all over budget or the same as their light weapon counterpart. Being one handed does have some benefit (can be used two handed, can be used to power attack) which differentiates them... but not enough. As mentioned in the spoiler above, a potential fix is making finessible only half a slot, so while they are similar, a rapier might have say a +2 bonus to disarming, or a scimitar may have a +2 crit confirm. Not quite as nice as an extra damage die, but at least it's something to differentiate. Alternatively, those weapons could become exotic, but that has other implications.

Fifth Point: Didn't give guisearms the ability to trip. Whoops. :smallredface:

Sixth Point: New ability-Mounted Archer. I like it, it is simple, clean, and makes sense. One problem I do have is wondering if this restriction currently exists? Also is it worth a full slot even if it does? I mean, I understand for realism purposes, it makes more sense for the shortbow to not be more deadly, but for balance I don't see that it is actually worth that much.

7th Point: Exotic Weapons overbalanced. Okay, a few of those I was unsure of got explained here. Apparently in your data you had already fixed them while flagging them.

-Sai: Losing throwing seems fine
-Urgosh: Again, your fix seems fine.
-Gnome Hammer: You're probably right that I didn't account for that, and may be part of what went over for the urgosh as well.

8th Point: All Hand Crossbows become easy loading. I don't necessarily think that is needed. I can see a hand crossbow that is as difficult to reload as a typical crossbow, and if someone really wants to put up with that (or blow the feat rather than weapon slots) that should be an option for them. While your tweaks work there, and simplify down the options a fair bit, I kind of prefer it the way it is, where there's more choice.





tl;dr: Thanks for all the in depth dissection. I agree with the majority of it, and will be making several updates to the OP. The major points of contention are:
-Finessible One Handers, what to do with them
-Shortspears vs javelins
-Mounted Archery ability
-Hand Crossbows all having easy loading.

Seerow
2011-06-18, 04:03 PM
Okay, OP is updated. There is now a table for Masterwork upgrades that includes the composite bows, swordchucks, and the masterwork weapons provided by Cieyrin. I'm pretty sure I fixed all of the errors Cieyrin pointed out, and I decided to go with the .5 cost for making a finessible weapon.

I didn't change the shortbow as Cieyrin suggested just yet, because I'm not sold that making only shortbows usable while mounted is the right answer here. While it makes them different in a realistic way, it's not a particularly great advantage, and is more a stealth nerf to other bows than a meaningful benefit for the shortbow.

Perhaps if the shortbow gained a property that negates the normal penalty, (-4 while moving -8 while running) for shooting on horseback would be in order, as that's a benefit to them rather than a nerf to others. I'm still not sure if it's worth it, but I guess I could see it having use in some niche build, with the longbow being the normal go-to weapon. In fact I'll probably edit this new property in after posting this.

Cieyrin
2011-06-18, 04:07 PM
Wrong Point Values:
Sling*: d6 x2 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Strength to Damage [1] = 4)

Sling: I messed up pretty badly there, and went pretty arbitrary since it was the only real weapon of its type. I also didn't realize slings normally get str to damage, so didn't account for that. Redesigning it to fit its limits as a simple weapon (thus only 2 slots) would probably be d4x2 30ft Bludgeoning (increase range x1, str to damage = 2)

Having thought about it some more, another solution that I've used previously is to treat slings as throwing weapons, like javelins. It's what they really are in actuality, too, as the sling acts as an arm extension and is basically just a throwing enhancer, not a projectile weapon like bows and crossbows. Going along those lines, we could count slings as one-handed throwing weapons, which has 3 slots, and have it buy Throwable, and Increase Range x2, which puts its stats at d4 x2 50' Bludgeoning, which are what they are in Core and gets Strength to damage by default. A fringe benefit of this is slings will get all the throwing boosts in the game already, too, which I think is not a bad thing either way.


Rapier*: d6 18-20/x2 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Scimitar*: d6 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 5)
Falchion*: 2d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2], Finessable [1] = 6)

Rapier: I'm not sure how I messed this one up. You're right that dropping it down to a d4 makes it basically a kukri clone, I guess that's the problem with 1-handed finessible weapons, light weapons basically have finessible for free, so spending your 1 bonus slot on finessible makes you identical to the light weapon. The rapier would still have the ability to wield two handed technically, but that's kind of silly. I'm kind of tempted to bump rapier down to exotic so it can be made stronger, alternatively make finessible only .5 slots, so that it at least gets some minor benefit, if not the full extra damage die but do you have any other ideas?

Scimitar: Same as Rapier

Falchion: Another one that it looks like I just forgot to add finessible. Did I get any of these right?

Hmm, I'm not sure if either solution is terribly good, though I suppose that all the other finessable one-handers or greater are exotics, so maybe there's good precedent for that. Given that rogues and bards, the classes in core that use rapiers primarily, specifically get proficiency, changing it up to exotic wouldn't hurt those classes. Let's see what results we get by upping those weapons to exotic:

Rapier: d8 18-20/x2 Piercing (+4 Crit Confirm [1], Finessable [1], Increase Damage x2 (1d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2] = 7)
Scimitar: d8 18-20/x2 Slashing (+4 Crit Confirm [1], Finessable [1], Increase Damage x2 (1d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2] = 7)

Going through the math, it actually works out better if Finessable stays a full point, which also makes some gameist sense, as being able to change your attack stat can be pretty powerful. As for falchions, why not drop finessable and leave that to elven courtblades? Falchions in 3.5 seemed primarily used by orcs, who aren't exactly known for their grace in any case. If people want a non-exotic finessable two-hander, I'd think leaving it in masterwork territory would make the most sense.


Unsure Why Flagged:
Kukri*: d4 18-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [2] = 3)
Light Pick*: d6 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 3)
Heavy Pick*: d8 x4 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1] = 4)
Shortbow*: d8 x3 70' Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Mounted Archer [1] = 4)
Sai*: d6 19-20/x3 Bludgeoning (+4 Disarm [1], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Monk [1] = 6)
Dwarven Urgrosh*: d8/d8 19-20/x3 Slashing or Piercing (Set [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2], Double Weapon [2] = 8)

These are flagged with your *, but they add up to where they should be as far as I can tell.

Yeah, I suppose that was a bit confusing, since these were the post-fixing results for the most part. Kukri and Light Pick were to illustrate the way slots were used with crit boosting.


First point: Setting a weapon against a charge costs too much. I can agree with that, I didn't really think about it in those terms (also added it before I decided to include half slot costs, and didn't think to include it in the reduction). Personally, I use it more than you seem to think is the norm, but that is likely just me, especially in any sort of optimized play (or anything where there is decent levels of mobility or pounce available). I think reducing the cost is perfectly reasonable in this case though.

I don't know, I've futzed with the set ability since D&D Basic and never seen it come up. Maybe I just don't play with the right groups or have played a proper war campaign, where a spear hedge makes plenty of sense to stave off cavalry... :smallconfused:


Second Point: Shortspears and Javelins. Yeah, I was actually looking out for things like that that wound up identical to separate them... somehow I missed this one. You say eliminate the shortspear, I'm curious if there's anything that could be done to make the shortspear different? Like make the shortspear only 10' range, but can be set against a charge and has +2 to crit confirms or something.

Hmm, drawing on 300 and allowing a spear and shield build to be viable does seem a bit appealing. Yeah, I could definitely see that.

Shortspear: d6 x2 10' Piercing (+2 Crit Confirm [.5], Set [.5], Damage Increase (d6) [1], Throwable [1] = 3)


Fourth Point: Finessible One-Handers suck. They are all over budget or the same as their light weapon counterpart. Being one handed does have some benefit (can be used two handed, can be used to power attack) which differentiates them... but not enough. As mentioned in the spoiler above, a potential fix is making finessible only half a slot, so while they are similar, a rapier might have say a +2 bonus to disarming, or a scimitar may have a +2 crit confirm. Not quite as nice as an extra damage die, but at least it's something to differentiate. Alternatively, those weapons could become exotic, but that has other implications.

As I said above, making non-light melees finessable seems like exotic territory. It hurts the full BABers, especially swashbucklers, but they got other toys they can play with and swashes are a dipping class for Daring Outlaws, anyways.


Sixth Point: New ability-Mounted Archer. I like it, it is simple, clean, and makes sense. One problem I do have is wondering if this restriction currently exists? Also is it worth a full slot even if it does? I mean, I understand for realism purposes, it makes more sense for the shortbow to not be more deadly, but for balance I don't see that it is actually worth that much.

For where the restriction exists, they specifically mention it in the bow descriptions. Of the four bows in Core, longbows are the only ones that can't be used mounted, no idea why composite longbows can (laminated horn is more compact, maybe? :smallconfused:). No mention in crossbows or slings, though, but I can't imagine trying to load a non-hand crossbow mounted, since you usually need a winch or use your leg muscles to help reset the crossbow for firing. With my above suggestion for treating slings as thrown weapons, that neatly puts it with other thrown weapons, which are all arm strength, anyways.

As for cost, perhaps I was a bit overzealous with the cost, as, while a powerful strategy, enabling Mounted Archery is about as powerful as Setting is compared to Mounted Combat, so making it .5 points makes sense. What to do with the other .5 points, I have no clue, as the only ability that makes sense, +2 Crit Confirm, back pedals into making shortbows x4 crit again. Maybe cut Range Increase to 10'/.5 would work for granularity and not change anything majorly for anyone else, so shortbows would be:

Shortbow: d8 x3 80' Piercing (Mounted Archer [.5], Increase Range [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 4)


7th Point: Exotic Weapons overbalanced. Okay, a few of those I was unsure of got explained here. Apparently in your data you had already fixed them while flagging them.

-Sai: Losing throwing seems fine
-Urgrosh: Again, your fix seems fine.
-Gnome Hammer: You're probably right that I didn't account for that, and may be part of what went over for the urgrosh as well.

As above, my data was partially post-fix, so I apologize again for the confusion.


8th Point: All Hand Crossbows become easy loading. I don't necessarily think that is needed. I can see a hand crossbow that is as difficult to reload as a typical crossbow, and if someone really wants to put up with that (or blow the feat rather than weapon slots) that should be an option for them. While your tweaks work there, and simplify down the options a fair bit, I kind of prefer it the way it is, where there's more choice.

As I said in the original post, that after the Urgrosh were just tweaks that I thought made sense to the ranged weapons. In Core, there's practically no reason to use a hand crossbow when you could use a light crossbow, even if you got it free as a rogue, as the damage and range were nickels and dimes in comparison. Making them all easy loading gives you an actual reason to use one, as you're otherwise a feat behind those using a light crossbow to get free reloads, which is too costly in archery, with the overburdened feat trees and all.

Either way, you can feel free to ignore the ranged weapon tweaks if you wish, as what you had works just fine. Just my take on how I'd have exotic ranged weapons work stat-wise, take them or leave them as you wish.

Now some new exotics, first a correction, as, while I was looking at Secrets of Sarlona and the spinning swords specifically, I realized that a) whip daggers and spinning swords are practically identical, except for whip weirdness, and b) I forgot to make whips and whip daggers finessable. :smallsigh: Also, when trying to implement my fix, I think triple cost of reach on one handers is just too expensive to be actually used. I'd recommend making it double, so it's still expensive but not so much that to gain it that it's to the exclusion of everything else in the weapon.

Whip: d4 x2 Slashing (Nonlethal only [0], +4 Disarm (1), +2 Trip [.5], Tripper (.5), Finessable [1], Flexible Reach [2x2=4] = 7) EOM
Whip-Dagger: d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (+4 Disarm (1), +2 Trip [.5], Tripper (.5), Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Range (19-20) [1], Finessable [1], Flexible Reach [2x2=4] = 9) EMOM

Speaking of Secrets, here's the conversions for everything, plus any new abilities that come up.

Light Simple Melee (2)
Steel Flute: d4 x2 10' Bludgeoning (Nonthreatening [.5], Battle Instrument [.5], Throwable [1] = 2)

Light Exotic Melee (6)
Monk's Cane: d8 x3 10' Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Nonthreatening [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Monk [1], Throwable [1] =6)
Cutting Wheel: d8 19-20/x2 Piercing and Slashing (+4 Disarm [1], Extra Damage Type (And) [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Monk [1] = 6)

One-Handed Exotic Melee (7)
Hook Sword: d10 19-20/x2 Piercing or Slashing (+2 Disarm [.5], +2 Trip [.5], Tripper [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Monk [1] =7)
Spinning Sword: d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (Concealable [.5], Light Finessable [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Range (19-20) [1], Flexible Reach [2x2=4] = 7)

Two-Handed Exotic Melee (8)
Monk's Spade: d8/d8 x4 Bludgeoning or Slashing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Monk [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Zulaat(Double Glaive): 2d4/2d4 19-20/x4 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)

New Weapon Abilities
Name [Cost of Ability] (Melee Available/Ranged Available): Description
Battle Instrument [.5] (Y/Y): This weapon also functions as a musical instrument and may be masterworked as both a weapon and instrument. Such processes must be paid for separately. The weapon can be used as a weapon or instrument but not both at once in the same round.
Light Finessable [.5] (Y/N): As Finessable but, due to short grips and light materials, can't be two-handed.
Nonthreatening [.5] (Y/Y): People nonproficient in the weapon can't tell that it's a weapon without careful study. To discern the danger, an observer needs to succeed at a Sense Motive check (DC 20). Alternatively, a proficient wielder can make an opposed Bluff versus an observer's Sense Motive to hide the threat they present.

Them's a further 2 coppers. Take as you will.

EDIT:
Okay, OP is updated. There is now a table for Masterwork upgrades that includes the composite bows, swordchucks, and the masterwork weapons provided by Cieyrin. I'm pretty sure I fixed all of the errors Cieyrin pointed out, and I decided to go with the .5 cost for making a finessible weapon.

Slings and Heavy Picks didn't get updated, though I await to see what you think about my alternate solution for slings. Speaking of, I'll write a quick write-up of the War Sling with my suggestion in place:

War Sling: d6 x4 70' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Throwable [1], Increase Range x3 [3] = 7)

Looking at the scimitar, rapier and falchion, I definitely don't think they're as good as other one-handed martial weapons and work better as exotics.


I didn't change the shortbow as Cieyrin suggested just yet, because I'm not sold that making only shortbows usable while mounted is the right answer here. While it makes them different in a realistic way, it's not a particularly great advantage, and is more a stealth nerf to other bows than a meaningful benefit for the shortbow.

Perhaps if the shortbow gained a property that negates the normal penalty, (-4 while moving -8 while running) for shooting on horseback would be in order, as that's a benefit to them rather than a nerf to others. I'm still not sure if it's worth it, but I guess I could see it having use in some niche build, with the longbow being the normal go-to weapon. In fact I'll probably edit this new property in after posting this.

That seems reasonable for giving further value to Mounted Archer without being a stealth nerf but may I suggest that it just halves the penalty so that Mounted Archery, the feat, still has a use and when one has both they negate the penalty entirely?

Seerow
2011-06-18, 04:15 PM
You just had to crosspost me and give me all that -after- I finished updating didn't you? :p

Cieyrin
2011-06-18, 05:31 PM
You just had to crosspost me and give me all that -after- I finished updating didn't you? :p

Not my fault, I swear! >_>;; I didn't see your new post before I finished my new one, though I did edit in a response to your new one after I noticed it, specifically what got missed, changes to the war sling to match up to my sling suggestion and what to do with Mounted Archer.

So, to futzing with armor and materials...

Seerow
2011-06-18, 06:05 PM
1) So go back to a full point but make Scimitar/Rapier exotic? I guess it works out all right since someone could just take a masterwork longsword or something if they want a non-exotic weapon.

2) Slings as melee throwable weapons is kind of akward though, as that implies you're throwing the sling rather than the stone, so it would need a special footnote. I do agree that the stats line up better that way though.

3) One handed reach is too expensive: I disagree on this. One handed reach is rare, and that should be because it's hard to get. As it is you can get a one handed weapon with reach for 3 points, which isn't too bad, it's only when you want inclusive reach (which in core is exclusive to the spiked chain) that it gets really expensive.

But then again this is one of the reasons I was hesitant on statting up whips. The reach is already 5' shorter than in core, but in exchange doesn't provoke AoOs, lets you take AoOs, and can damage armored targets. Perhaps you could add in flaw: doesn't damage unarmored targets/cant take AoOs for a bonus slot that lets you finesse it... but then you're making a new exception just for this weapon... again part of why I wanted to avoid statting it, and just let it go with the old rules.

4) Will update the weapons you pointed out that I missed.

5) The way I did it I actually think works a bit smoother. Mounted Archery has a -4 penalty or -8 while running. Now you can take the shortbow and have no penalty while riding normally, or take the shortbow+feat to have no penalty while running.

I'm actually fine with the shortbow negating the need for the feat for people who don't care about running, because honestly the mounted archery feat is pretty bad anyway. Making it something so you can use the better longbow with it rather than the shortbow is fine imo. Though most people will prolly just carry a shortbow with them if they have a mount.



edit: And updated. I'm still not sold on the sling as a one handed melee weapon thing, but I put it in as that for now. I'm thinking maybe slings should just get a note that they gain a free 20ft range, in the same vein as bows getting a free +60ft range and 1 slot and crossbows gaining 70ft range and 2 slots. It would hardly be game breaking to do so, and requires less explanation than having slings as melee weapons.

Jjeinn-tae
2011-06-18, 10:56 PM
I didn't change the shortbow as Cieyrin suggested just yet, because I'm not sold that making only shortbows usable while mounted is the right answer here. While it makes them different in a realistic way, it's not a particularly great advantage, and is more a stealth nerf to other bows than a meaningful benefit for the shortbow.

Perhaps if the shortbow gained a property that negates the normal penalty, (-4 while moving -8 while running) for shooting on horseback would be in order, as that's a benefit to them rather than a nerf to others. I'm still not sure if it's worth it, but I guess I could see it having use in some niche build, with the longbow being the normal go-to weapon. In fact I'll probably edit this new property in after posting this.

One thing to note is that shortbows being the only bow able to be used while mounted is based on the core rules:



Longbow

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a bonus for high Strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below) but not a regular longbow.


Shortbow

You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a shortbow while mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a shortbow. If you have a bonus for high Strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite shortbow (see below) but not a regular shortbow.

Cieyrin
2011-06-19, 12:04 AM
1) So go back to a full point but make Scimitar/Rapier exotic? I guess it works out all right since someone could just take a masterwork longsword or something if they want a non-exotic weapon.

Exactly.


2) Slings as melee throwable weapons is kind of awkward though, as that implies you're throwing the sling rather than the stone, so it would need a special footnote. I do agree that the stats line up better that way though.

It's what slings really do, though. It makes your arm effectively longer so you have a longer lever to use to throw the rock or whatever harder and farther. Same concept as an atl-atl but instead of javelins, you're throwing rocks. You're just using a leather pouch as your hand instead of your hand.


3) One handed reach is too expensive: I disagree on this. One handed reach is rare, and that should be because it's hard to get. As it is you can get a one handed weapon with reach for 3 points, which isn't too bad, it's only when you want inclusive reach (which in core is exclusive to the spiked chain) that it gets really expensive.

But then again this is one of the reasons I was hesitant on statting up whips. The reach is already 5' shorter than in core, but in exchange doesn't provoke AoOs, lets you take AoOs, and can damage armored targets. Perhaps you could add in flaw: doesn't damage unarmored targets/cant take AoOs for a bonus slot that lets you finesse it... but then you're making a new exception just for this weapon... again part of why I wanted to avoid statting it, and just let it go with the old rules.

It's still outside the purview of simple and martial weapons to have a one-handed flexible reach weapon and still be any modicum of effectiveness, though. Plus, the whip, whip-dagger, spiked chain and spinning sword are the only weapons in the game with flexible reach, anyways, and the spiked chain is still king, as the only one of the 4 that's two-handed and gets neat boosts besides. I don't think anyone is gonna break the game with the whip being actually functional, as it still does paltry damage and is mostly a combat maneuver enhancer. Things like Stand Still and other BC feats aren't going to function as well with a whip, not even with dual wielding a pair of whips, as that just means you're capable of doing more support for someone else to go in and nuke the baddies while you have 'em tied down.

Basically, what I did with one-handed flexible reach still leaves it as the most expensive ability available for purchase and you barely have points left over to do much with it. I should also point out that you already threw up a disclaimer about having DM adjudication in place before letting in a custom weapon, which should handle something like one-handed flexible reach with the other slots thrown all into damage or something like that. I just want whips and its associates to actually see play and not have to depend on Lasher or some such to crutch it into viability, y'know? I want to enable Zorro to be able to play from the get-go.


5) The way I did it I actually think works a bit smoother. Mounted Archery has a -4 penalty or -8 while running. Now you can take the shortbow and have no penalty while riding normally, or take the shortbow+feat to have no penalty while running.

I'm actually fine with the shortbow negating the need for the feat for people who don't care about running, because honestly the mounted archery feat is pretty bad anyway. Making it something so you can use the better longbow with it rather than the shortbow is fine imo. Though most people will prolly just carry a shortbow with them if they have a mount.

Y'know what? I rescind my previous statement about Mounted Archery, the feat, and agree with you totally. Archers have few enough feats as-is and cutting out one so a mounted archer can play just a bit better is its own reward.


edit: And updated. I'm still not sold on the sling as a one handed melee weapon thing, but I put it in as that for now. I'm thinking maybe slings should just get a note that they gain a free 20ft range, in the same vein as bows getting a free +60ft range and 1 slot and crossbows gaining 70ft range and 2 slots. It would hardly be game breaking to do so, and requires less explanation than having slings as melee weapons.

I'm just trying to eliminate the awkwardness slings normally have, as their not quite projectile weapons and not quite thrown but somewhere in between in core. Pushing them firmly into thrown weapons opens up possibilities and lets the red-headed stepchild of weapons actually shine a bit and lets halflings keep using their favored weapons effectively for a longer period. I see no reason why that's a bad thing. Having them as their own category makes a slight bit of sense if you want to go that way but I think having them as one-handed melees works just fine, as you can just explain how you pound the rock into the poor sap's head who thought he could come and threaten you so you wouldn't shoot. Sling bullets are a half a pound a piece, y'know. :smalltongue:

Cieyrin
2011-06-24, 06:39 PM
Arms and Equipment Guide is a bit harder to convert than I thought, as I have to cross-reference more recent books to see what's been updated and what hasn't, so that'll take a bit longer.

In the mean time, I can post the fruits of my labors for conversions of the weapons from Planar Handbook, Races of Stone, Races of the Wild and Eberron Campaign Setting, along with new abilities. EDIT: Now including Secrets of Sarlona! The mass table is as follows:

Light Simple Melee (2)
Musperule: d6 19-20/x2 Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 2)
Steel Flute: d4 x2 10' Bludgeoning (Nonthreatening [.5], Battle Instrument [.5], Throwable [1] = 2)

One-Handed Simple Melee (3)
Heavy Sickle: d8 19-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Range (19-20) [1] = 3)

Light Martial Melee (3)
Gehennan Lancet: d6 18-20/x2 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1] = 3)
Stabaxe: d8 x3 Piercing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1] = 3)
Straightblade: d8 19-20/x2 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 3)

Two-Handed Martial Melee (5)
Ripper: d10 19-20/x2 Piercing (+2 Crit Confirm [.5], Set [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1] = 5)

Light Exotic Melee (6)
Dwarven Buckler-Axe: d8 19-20/x3 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Battle Shield [1] = 6)
Monk's Cane: d8 x3 10' Bludgeoning (+2 Disarm [.5], Nonthreatening [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Monk [1], Throwable [1] =6)
Cutting Wheel: d8 19-20/x2 Piercing and Slashing (+4 Disarm [1], Extra Damage Type (And) [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Monk [1] = 6)
Foot Spike: d6 19-20/x3 Piercing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Aerial Pounce [2] = 6)
Throwing Hammer: d8 x3 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Throwable [1], Increase Range x2 [2] = 6)
Elven Lightblade: d8 18-20/x2 Piercing (+2 Disarm [.5], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Weapon Familiarity (Rapier, Shortsword) [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1] = 6)
Gnomish Tortoise Blade: d8 18-20/x2 Piercing (+4 AoO [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Battle Shield [1] = 6)
Gnomish Quickrazor: d6 18-20/x2 Slashing (+4 Feint [1], +2 Crit Confirm [.5], Concealable [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Sudden Draw [1] = 6)

One-Handed Exotic Melee (7)
Hook Sword: d10 19-20/x2 Piercing or Slashing (+2 Disarm [.5], +2 Trip [.5], Tripper [.5], Extra Damage Type [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Monk [1] =7)
Spinning Sword: d6 19-20/x2 Slashing (Concealable [.5], Light Finessable [.5], Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Range (19-20) [1], Flexible Reach [2x2=4] = 7)
Gnomish Swordcatcher: d8 19-20/x3 Slashing (+4 Disarm [1], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Finessable [1] = 7)
Elven Thinblade: d10 18-20/x2 Piercing (Weapon Familiarity (Longsword, Rapier) [1], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Finessable [1] = 7)

Two-Handed Exotic Melee (8)
Elven Courtblade: 2d6 18-20/x2 Piercing or Slashing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Weapon Familiarity (Greatsword) [.5], Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Finessable [1] = 8)
Dwarven Double Spear: d10/d10 x4 Piercing or Slashing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Set [.5], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Jovar: 2d6 18-20/x2 Slashing (+4 Crit Confirm [1], Brutal 1 [1], Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1] = 8)
Ramhammer: 2d6 x4 Bludgeoning (+2 Bull Rush [.5], Knockback [.5], Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Reach [1] = 8)
Valenar Double Scimitar: d10/d10 18-20/x2 Slashing (Crit Confirm +4 [1], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Monk's Spade: d8/d8 x4 Bludgeoning or Slashing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Tripper [.5], Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Monk [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)
Talenta Tangat: d10 18-20/x3 Slashing (Crit Confirm +4 [1], Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1x2=2] = 8)
Dwarven Warpike: 2d6 x3 Piercing or Slashing (Extra Damage Type [.5], Set [.5], Tripper [.5], Trip +2 [.5], Increase Damage x4 (2d6) [4], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Reach [1] = 8)
Zulaat(Double Glaive): 2d4/2d4 19-20/x4 Slashing (Increase Damage x2 (2d4) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1x2=2], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x4) [1], Double Weapon [2] = 8)

Ranged Exotic
Annulat: d6 18-20/x2 50' Slashing (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Crit Threat (18-20) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Arc [1] = 6)
Talenta Boomerang: d6 x3 70' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], increase Range x3 [3], Return [1] = 6)
Xendrik Boomerang: d8 19-20/x2 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage x2 (d8) [2], Increase Crit Threat (19-20) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Return [1] = 6)
Footbow: d10 x3 90' Piercing (Increase Damage x3 (d10) [3], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Range [1], Strength to Damage [1], Mighty Pull [1] = 7)
Skiprock: d6 x3 50' Bludgeoning (Increase Damage (d6) [1], Increase Crit Mod (x3) [1], Increase Range x2 [2], Ricochet [2] = 6)

New Weapon Abilities
Name [Cost] (Melee Usable/Ranged Usable): Description
Aerial Pounce [2] (Y/N): When a proficient user wields a pair of these weapons and makes a dive attack, they may attack with both weapons at the end of a charge.
Arc [1] (N/Y): When a proficient user wields this weapon, they can make the weapon's trajectory curve around obstacles, allowing the wielder to ignore 4 points of cover bonus to AC.
Battle Instrument [.5] (Y/Y): This weapon also functions as a musical instrument and may be masterworked as both a weapon and instrument. Such processes must be paid for separately. The weapon can be used as a weapon or instrument but not both at once in the same round.
Battle Shield [1] (Y/N): Built into this weapon is a small Buckler, that provides a +1 shield bonus, -1 ACP and 5% ASF. As with any shield, if you attack with a Battle Shield, you lose the shield bonus until your next turn. You may masterwork a Battle Shield as both a shield and a weapon, though you must pay for each separately.
Knockback [.5] (Y/Y): A proficient user of this weapon can use it to bull rush without entering their target's square, avoiding the attack of opportunity.
Light Finessable [.5] (Y/N): As Finessable but, due to short grips and light materials, can't be two-handed.
Mighty Pull [1] (N/Y): A proficient user can apply extra leverage when using the weapon, allowing the wielder to apply 1.5 of their Strength bonus to damage. Requires Strength to Damage weapon ability.
Nonthreatening [.5] (Y/Y): People nonproficient in the weapon can't tell that it's a weapon without careful study. To discern the danger, an observer needs to succeed at a Sense Motive check (DC 20). Alternatively, a proficient wielder can make an opposed Bluff versus an observer's Sense Motive to hide the threat they present.
Return [1] (N/Y): A weapon with Return flies back to a proficient user on a miss. To catch a returning weapon, the user must make an attack roll against AC 10, as if he were throwing the weapon. Failure indicates the weapon scatters 10' in a random direction (refer to splash weapon rules for details on scattering in a random direction).
Ricochet [2] (N/Y): If a proficient user manages to hit their target, the weapon ricochets to an adjacent target. The user immediately makes a second attack roll at the same bonus-2 for this attack. An attack may ricochet only once.
Sudden Draw [1] (Y/N): This weapon may be drawn and sheathed as a free action. A Sudden Draw weapon must be sheathed after each attack to be used properly. You are treated as unarmed on other creature's turns if this is your only weapon.
Weapon Familiarity [.5] (Y/Y): This weapon is similar to another weapon in use and technique. You may treat this weapon as that weapon for the purpose of the following feats: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-07-09, 10:47 AM
Sword-Chucks yo


Swordchucks are a masterwork exotic two handed weapon:

1d8/1d8 19-20x2 . Double Weapon, inclusive reach, finessible can trip, +2 to trip attempts, +4 to crit confirmation rolls.


Just decided this needed to be added for posterity.

What about them squirrel-chux ?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_vuIKof4gZww/S9tbGfjoJKI/AAAAAAAAAvE/GFZjdDW8Hb0/s1600/kungpow.jpg

Seerow
2011-09-27, 12:19 AM
Okay, this fell by the wayside for a few months, but I'm reviving it. I decided to go along with reducing the cost for one handed reach, and redid the stats for whip/whip-dagger (though I'll have to double check those sometime when it's not 1am to make sure I got it right). I also rather than updating all of the new weapons Cieyrin posted into the OP gave a link to those. I may go through and prune out all of the non-core weapons and make another post in the thread with a link to them, so that you can easily distinguish core weapons and extra weapons from other sources. I also intend to look hard at Armor and special materials again, to make sure what I put up before is balanced.

Oh also, I decided to add in the brutal property from 4e. I remembered that being fun, so tossed it into the table, with what seemed like a fair value. I am moderately concerned with brutal and size scaling, but it represents at most a 14% damage increase, and while 14% of a lot can be a lot, the fact remains at that point you had a lot anyway so oh well. Not nearly as disasterous as my more recent weapon damage scaling with strength was before ammending it to consider size modifiers.

Cieyrin
2011-09-27, 11:18 AM
The Secrets of Sarlona weapons didn't get covered but I'll move those stats over to the linked post, since no one wants to read through all that analysis for weapon stats, I expect.

Also, Brutal, huh? Intriguing...Better than PF's weapon qualities (Deadly, indeed :smallannoyed:). Is that gonna get on the Minotaur Greathammer or Dwarven Greataxe?

Also, if I have the time, maybe I'll get to actually looking at the armor and materials and maybe see about getting back to the A&EG weapon conversions. My time has gotten a bit more fleeting, if the progress of my Gunslinger's Handbook is any indication.

Seerow
2011-09-27, 11:27 AM
The Secrets of Sarlona weapons didn't get covered but I'll move those stats over to the linked post, since no one wants to read through all that analysis for weapon stats, I expect.

Also, Brutal, huh? Intriguing...Better than PF's weapon qualities (Deadly, indeed :smallannoyed:). Is that gonna get on the Minotaur Greathammer or Dwarven Greataxe?

Also, if I have the time, maybe I'll get to actually looking at the armor and materials and maybe see about getting back to the A&EG weapon conversions. My time has gotten a bit more fleeting, if the progress of my Gunslinger's Handbook is any indication.

Heh no problem, I've been very intermittently active myself. And honestly have a project due tomorrow I should be working on right now. Oh well.

As for Brutal, right now I'm going to leave it as a quality for masterwork upgrading. I may update some of the exotics to include it eventually, but for now I'm thinking it's fine as an option and not something that necessarily needs to be integrated into the core weapon table.


Also, apparently you can't update the topic title after X period of time. That kind of sucks, I tried to update it to say it was updated yesterday, and it accomplished nothing. QQ

Yitzi
2011-09-27, 12:16 PM
I notice some of your weapon increases overlap. Perhaps you should make it so that you can "trade in" an ability when getting another ability that includes it (so, for instance, making a ranseur able to hit adjacent as well as having reach would only cost 1, as the other one comes from trading in the reach property.)

Seerow
2011-09-29, 05:54 PM
I notice some of your weapon increases overlap. Perhaps you should make it so that you can "trade in" an ability when getting another ability that includes it (so, for instance, making a ranseur able to hit adjacent as well as having reach would only cost 1, as the other one comes from trading in the reach property.)

Okay, yeah, I pretty much just assumed that if someone took overlapping abilities the new ability would supplant the old one (for example taking a d8 weapon to a d10 weapon doesn't cost 4 slots, the cost of a d10 weapon, it costs 1 slot, the cost of increasing it). If you think that the intent isn't clear, I'd be happy to update the OP, if you can think of a simple way to word it that won't just confuse the matter more.





On Armor:
Do you think there's really any way to codify it more? I pretty much just said **** it last time I was working on it, and just did the masterwork upgrades/special materials. Was this wrong?

I think the main issue I had was that Light/Medium/Heavy armor all balance out to the same effective AC, but with heavy having more innate, and lighter requiring more dex, and Heavy always having some ACPs. What if this weren't the case? Frankly, Heavy Armor should be better. It is a higher level proficiency, and in the same way that exotic weapons should be better than martial weapons, heavy armor should be better than medium armor. Possibly even moreso because of the increased cost and inherent penalties with heavy armor.

On one hand, I think this is a potential problem with the AC system itself, making it go too far from the average destroys the RNG, especially at low levels. On the other hand, any changes to the AC system exceed the scope of the project. For example trying to change up armors to work with my damage threshold system from a while back implies that you'd need that system to run with this system, which isn't desirable.


Given that, I'm currently still leaning towards leaving armor alone, except maybe dropping down the max dex of leather armors, but make max dex cheaper to raise than actual armor.

So for example your light armor might be an average of 3 armor with 4 max dex. Medium Armor might be 5 armor with 3 max dex. And Heavy Armor 8 with 2.

...in fact I kind of like this, I think I'm gonna run with it and see where it goes. That combined with a better conversion for heavy armors with special materials should keep heavy armor relevant as the game progresses.

Seerow
2011-09-29, 06:54 PM
Armor:

Light Armor
{table=head]Armor Type | Armor Bonus | Max Dex | ACP
Padded Armor | 2 | 6 | 0
Leather Armor| 3 | 4 | -1
Studded Leather | 4 | 2 | -2 [/table]

Medium Armor
{table=head]Armor Type | Armor Bonus | Max Dex | ACP
Chainmail | 4 | 5 | -2
Breastplate | 5 | 3 | -3
Scale mail | 6 | 1 | -4 [/table]

Heavy Armor
{table=head]Armor Type | Armor Bonus | Max Dex | ACP
Banded Mail | 6 | 5 | -4
Splint Mail | 7 | 3 | -5
Full Plate | 8 | 1 | -6 [/table]

Shields
{table=head]Armor Type | Armor Bonus | Max Dex | ACP
Buckler | 1 | - | 0
Light Shield | 2 | - | -1
Heavy Shield | 3 | - | -2
Tower Shield | 3 | - | -3[/table]


So what we end up with here is each tier being clearly better than the last, without throwing the RNG horribly out of whack. I did drop one armor from each category, because frankly, trying to keep them actually meaningfully different was a pain in the ass. The way I ended it was starting with the middle armor. The one above it, I'd subtract 1 armor, add 2 max dex, and reduce the ACP by 1. The one below it, I'd add 1 armor, subtract 2 max dex, and increase ACP by 2. This leads to the lowest armor on the next tier being basically the same as the highest armor on the previous tier, but with a better max dex, but the penalties generally associated with heavier armor.

Speaking of, here's the descriptions of each category of armor.

Light Armor
Has 10% Arcane Spell Failure chance, provides proficiency with Bucklers. You may notice that the Chain Shirt is missing. If you absolutely must have this armor, make it equivalent to Studded leather. Takes 1 minute to don.

Medium Armor
Has 20% Arcane Spell Failure Chance, reduces movement speed by 5ft. Provides proficiency with Light Shields. You may notice that that Hide is missing. If you absolutely must have this armor, make it equivalent to Chainmail. Takes 2 minutes to don.

Heavy Armor
Has a 30% Arcane Spell Failure Chance, reduces movement speed by 5ft. Provides proficiency with Heavy Shields. You may notice that that Half-Plate is missing. If you absolutely must have this armor, make it equivalent to Banded Mail. Takes 3 minutes to don.

Shields
All Shields, regardless of type, take only 1 move action to don.

Tower Shield
Tower Shields are treated as an exotic proficiency. A Tower Shield provides soft cover at all times when other cover is not available. It may also be used to supply Cover to the wielder when fighting defensively. When taking a full defense action, the tower shield provides Total Cover.




Donning armor hastily
Donning armor hastily reduces the time to don an armor from minutes to rounds. (So light armor would be doned in 1 round, heavy in 3 rounds). Doing so incurs a -1 armor penalty and an additional -2 ACP penalty.







Also, here's the list of armor upgrade abilities, with some minor changes from the OP.

{table=head]Upgrade | Slot Cost
Decrease Armor Check Penalty by 1 | .25 slot
+1 to resist bull rush (max +4) | .25 slot
+1 to resist trip (max +4) | .25 slot
+1 to resist grapple (max+4) | .25 slot
+1 to resist disarm (max+4) | .25 slot
+1 AC vs Crit Confirmation (max +4)| .25 slot
Fire Resist +1 | .25 slots
Cold Resist +1 | .25 slots
Electricity Resist +1 | .25 slots
Acid Resist +1 | .25 slots
Increase max dex +1 | .5 slot
Increase existing DR by +1 | .5 slot
Quick Don Armor | 1 slot
Reduce ASF 5% | 1 slot
Increase Armor Bonus +1 | 1 slot
Armor/Shield Spike | 1 slot
Add DR 1/- to an armor | 2 slots
Light Fortification | 3 slots[/table]


Quick Don Armor is a new property that negates the penalty for donning armor hastily. This allows any armor to be donned in an interval of rounds with no penalty


What would be nice however, is ideas for other armor properties that make sense as mundane masterwork style upgrades. We have a pretty lengthy list for weapons, I'm sure there's some stuff for armor out there that I'm not thinking of. Anyone got anything to add to the list?

Amechra
2011-09-29, 07:20 PM
Armor Spikes.
Quicker removal/donning.
Some elemental resistances (fire would be insulation, and such).

Seerow
2011-09-29, 07:26 PM
Armor Spikes.
Quicker removal/donning.
Some elemental resistances (fire would be insulation, and such).

How much resist would you think is appropriate? Something like 5 points per point invested? 1 per .25?


Also I forgot about removal/donning time. I need to look up the details on that again, and see if I can work with it.



edit: Okay updated. I went with 1 per .25 invested, so a normal masterwork armor can get 8(12) resistance in a single element. I also standardized the donning rules to 1/2/3minutes, and 1/2/3 rounds for donning hastily. Added new property to allow donning hastily without penalty. Kind of situational, but probably useful when it matters. Also added Armor/Shield spike as a 1 slot ability, and separated the +1 combat maneuver into specific maneuvers. Overall the table looks a bit more full now. It does have a leaning towards lower cost abilities, but I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with that.


I think I'll update that stuff into the OP soon. I'm mostly happy with it unless someone has a legitimate concern, and then to look at special materials. Also considering epic level materials, as was suggested in another thread. Really powerful cool stuff like a captured lightningbolt. But I can't really think of enough potential suitably epic materials.

jiriku
2011-09-29, 08:45 PM
Seerow, this isn't exactly what you're doing, but I thought you might be able to mine it for a couple of useful ideas. A few years back I reverse-engineered the weapons to build some guidelines for my players to introduce some new weapons. I've copied them below; they've been playtested through about 4 years of steady use, and weapons created through these rules have been found to be well-balanced against existing weapons. Perhaps you can harvest one or two useful nuggets for use with your system, especially involving the costs for various upgrades.

Custom weapons receive 9 trait points, and may purchase traits from the following menus. Build each half of a double weapon as a separate weapon with its own point budget, purchasing the double weapon special separately for both halves.

(This system can be used to rebuild more than 90% of the published weapons in the game, with the notable exception of a number of very unimpressive exotic weapons that are widely regarded as not worth the EWP feat required to learn them.)

http://i846.photobucket.com/albums/ab24/gallopinggiraffes/weaponguidelines.jpg

Amechra
2011-09-29, 08:50 PM
What do you mean, "Dirt Cheep"?

jiriku
2011-09-29, 08:57 PM
Stuff like club, greatclub. Any weapon that's abnormally inexpensive for its class. It's the best way to account for such weapons being as sub-par as they are. The "dirt-cheap" option is not going to be appealing to a player designing a weapon for his PC, but if you're trying to outfit an army on a budget, dirt-cheap weapons may be preferable to those of higher cost.

Seerow
2011-09-29, 09:10 PM
Meh, I don't think "dirt cheap" is worth a weapon quality hit. The cost of a weapon barely matters at level 1, and after that it's even less of an issue.

Looking at your costs, I think I may have overpriced the 18-20 crit. I've had the feeling I classed that a bit too high from the start, and realize if I drop it to 2 slots, it's probably a bit more reasonable. I'll do some math to see how much of a difference it really makes in a bit.

Aside from that, you have a lot of your stuff overpriced compared to mine, but your weapons have more slots (7 for a 2 handed martial with yours vs 5 for mine), so it probably comes close to the same. The difference in slots between my exotics and non-exotics is a bit bigger, so the exotics are worth more, but I felt relative to current 3.5 that was absolutely necessary.

So yeah, main thing I got out of that was reevaluate crit costs. Math inc shortly.



Okay 1 = base damage. Assuming you hit on an 8 (65% hit rate).


20x2:
1-7: 0
8-19: 1
20: 35% 1, 65% 2

Total avg: .6825


20x3
1-7: 0
8-19: 1
20: 35% 1, 65% 3

Total avg: .715
Baseline Average: .6825
Increase: 4.75%

19-20x2
1-7: 0
8-18: 1
19-20: 35% 1, 65% 2

Total avg: .715
Baseline Average: .6825
Increase: 4.75%

20x4
1-7: 0
8-19: 1
20: 35% 1, 65% 4

Total avg: .7475
Baseline Average: .6825
Increase: 9.5%

18-20x2
1-7: 0
8-17: 1
18-20: 35% 1, 65% 2

Total avg: .7475
Baseline Average: .6825
Increase: 9.5%


19-20x3
1-7: 0
8-18: 1
19-20: 35% 1, 65% 3

Total avg: .78
Baseline Average: .6825
Increase: 14.29%

19-20x4
1-7: 0
8-18: 1
19-20: 35% 1, 65% 4

Total avg: .845
Baseline Average: .6825
Increase: 23.8%

18-20x3
1-7: 0
8-17: 1
18-20: 35% 1, 65% 3

Total avg: .845
Baseline Average: .6825
Increase: 23.8%

18-20x4
1-7: 0
8-17: 1
18-20: 35% 1, 65% 4

Total avg: .94425
Baseline Average: .6825
Increase: 38.1%







So basically: [expected reflects what the cost would be under the system with 18-20x2 as 2 slots. current reflects the costs I have been using]
19-20x2 = 1 (expected: 1)
20x2 = 1 (expected: 1)
18-20x2 = 2 (expected: 2, current: 3)
20x4 = 2 (expected: 2)

Both so far so good. Then mixing them up some:
19-20x3 = 3 (expected 3)
19-20x4 = 5 (expected: 4)
18-20x3 = 5 (expected: 4, current: 5)
18-20x4 = 8 (expected: 6, current: 7)

Basically, making 18-20x2 cost 2 is more reasonable than the current 3. Because while it brings the value closer to what is accurate in a couple of places, it is overpriced by itself.


I think there's two choices here: Either explicitly spell out the cost of each crit range, or accept that the higher crits are going to be a little more efficient even with the stacking penalty of multiply by 2.

jiriku
2011-09-30, 01:46 AM
Meh, I don't think "dirt cheap" is worth a weapon quality hit. The cost of a weapon barely matters at level 1, and after that it's even less of an issue....

....The difference in slots between my exotics and non-exotics is a bit bigger, so the exotics are worth more, but I felt relative to current 3.5 that was absolutely necessary.

Most would agree with you. I priced it thus because I was trying to measure how the existing weapons worked, rather than how I felt they ought to work. I can agree with you that the progression of exotic weapons in splatbooks shows that WoTC was struggling to find a balance point for them. Exotic weapons in the PH or in Complete Adventurer generally only got 1 extra "perk", while those in Complete Warrior usually got two, and those in Races of Stone generally netted 3 or 4.

Looking at your costs, I think I may have overpriced the 18-20 crit. I've had the feeling I classed that a bit too high from the start, and realize if I drop it to 2 slots, it's probably a bit more reasonable. I'll do some math to see how much of a difference it really makes in a bit.


I think there's two choices here: Either explicitly spell out the cost of each crit range, or accept that the higher crits are going to be a little more efficient even with the stacking penalty of multiply by 2.


It's necessary to include both range and multiplier when making the calculation, because an increase in threat range multiplies the impact of an increase in critical multiplier. Here's my math behind the crit pricing. Assuming you perfectly sample 20 attacks made with a weapon, you'll see every possible d20 result exactly once. Assume you hit on a 2+ and confirm all criticals. How many times will your weapon deal its base damage in a perfect sample of 20 attack rolls?

20/x2 = 20
20/x3 = 21
20/x4 = 22
19-20/x2 = 21
18-20/x2 = 22
19-20/x3 = 23
18-20/x3 = 25
19-20/x4 = 25
18-20/x4 = 28

Thus, the pricing of the combined threat range and crit multiplier is based on the number of additional times you'll get to roll damage per 20 attacks.

Seerow
2011-09-30, 09:39 AM
It's necessary to include both range and multiplier when making the calculation, because an increase in threat range multiplies the impact of an increase in critical multiplier. Here's my math behind the crit pricing. Assuming you perfectly sample 20 attacks made with a weapon, you'll see every possible d20 result exactly once. Assume you hit on a 2+ and confirm all criticals. How many times will your weapon deal its base damage in a perfect sample of 20 attack rolls?

Actually if you look inside the spoiler, that's the math I did, except instead of looking at how many times you deal weapon damage, I calculated average damage per round, and measured the % increase from 20x2.

My system does already make the crits cost 1 more slot than normal when combining both range and multiplier, or 2 more when maximizing both.

The problem is that the damage increase is actually a bit higher than that, proportionally. But if I make it 100% proportional, a 18-20x4 crit range needs to be 8 slots, which is 100% of the slots from a exotic two hander, which would be left at d3 damage and have no other perks. Kind of sad.

Cieyrin
2011-09-30, 09:47 AM
I may look a bit deeper later but I don't really think 18-20 is overpriced, as increasing the chances of a crit, including the damage bonus attached to the attack, tends to be more powerful than a higher multiplier you get less often.

Also, your refined armor rules have this issue with confusing 'don' with 'dawn'. Just thought I'd point that out. :smallwink:

Seerow
2011-09-30, 10:20 AM
I may look a bit deeper later but I don't really think 18-20 is overpriced, as increasing the chances of a crit, including the damage bonus attached to the attack, tends to be more powerful than a higher multiplier you get less often.

The math I did actually showed them to be pretty much identical at all levels in terms of % damage increase.



edit: I've decided I'm going to drop 18-20x2 down by 1 slot, to make it 2 slots just like 20x4 is. I'm going to leave the multiplier as is, because while it is a bit more efficient, it all depends on how much you have in the way of static damage. I mean a rogue with an 18-20x4 who relies on sneak attack mostly doesn't get a whole lot out of it, especially if their damage die is only a d3. A fighter with a flat +50 damage gets quite a bit out of it. So a 18-20x3 or 19-20x4 costing 1 slot less than their theoretical value, or 18-20x4 costing 2 less than the theoretical value... I'm not gonna sweat it, because with the high slot costs involved, it's not a obvious always go to solution. And if you use the system I posted recently for converting +attribute damage mods to extra weapon dice, the weapon die upgrades become a lot more important, so different weapons still prosper.



Also, your refined armor rules have this issue with confusing 'don' with 'dawn'. Just thought I'd point that out. :smallwink:

Good sir, I must say. I have no idea what you are talking about. :smalltongue:

Seerow
2011-09-30, 02:37 PM
I updated the OP, updating the cost of 18-20x2 crit, and the weapons that had 18-20 crit ranges getting a slot back. Also added a paragraph explaining that overlapping benefits also overlap in cost, and giving an example. Hopefully that clears up that issue.

Mangles
2011-09-30, 08:40 PM
If iv'e read this right you can get a masterwrok exotic 2 handed adamantite weapon which gives you 12 upgrade points. starting at d4x20

Bump the weapon damage up 2d6 costs 4 points
Bump its damage up to 8d6 costs 8 points

You now can do 8d6 damage on a medium weapon. Combining that with your other dice rolls homebrew is quite deadly. Sure you can't trip or finesse but still, DAMAGE!

Alternativley only go up to 3d6 damage and instead grab 18-20 * 4 crit multiplier. Although if I was the barbarian I'd be taking the first option.

Seerow
2011-09-30, 09:17 PM
If iv'e read this right you can get a masterwrok exotic 2 handed adamantite weapon which gives you 12 upgrade points. starting at d4x20

Bump the weapon damage up 2d6 costs 4 points
Bump its damage up to 8d6 costs 8 points

You now can do 8d6 damage on a medium weapon. Combining that with your other dice rolls homebrew is quite deadly. Sure you can't trip or finesse but still, DAMAGE!

Alternativley only go up to 3d6 damage and instead grab 18-20 * 4 crit multiplier. Although if I was the barbarian I'd be taking the first option.


Actually it would be 6 slots (exotic) + 2 slots (two handed weapon) + 2 slots (masterwork) + 3 slots (adamantine), for 13 slots total. So worse than you said.

You are right that that scales up too quickly, I can think of two ways to change it:

1) Have the cost increase the further above 2d6 you get. Every increase past 2d6 costs an additional +1. (So 3d6 is 2 points, 4d6 is 3, 6d6 is 4, 8d6 is 5).

This would make 13 slots cap at 6d6, with nothing else.

2) Make a different progression chart. The assumed progression chart is for size bonuses. We're talking about increasing weapon damage die size, which has no precedent for going above 2d6. So what if instead it increases to 2d8 (9), then 2d10 (11), then 2d12(13). Then increment cost again, and it then jumps to 4d6 (14)->4d8(18) -> 4d10 (22) ->4d12 (26)

At that point you have costs for slots going:
0-1d4
1-1d6
2-1d8
3-1d10
4-2d6
6-2d8
8-2d10
10-2d12
13-4d8


And past that isn't really possible.

It's still a lot of damage, but better 4d8 than 8d6.






The other possibility is that the new weapon rule specifically says DM adjudication is required, so someone trying to make a new weapon that is nothing but damage is bad. Which means the best you'd get is the base weapon of 3d6, and spend 5 upgrade slots increasing damage, which can get you to 6d6. (Taking that into account, with the first alternate system it would instead cap at 4d6, second alternate system it would cap at 2d12)

Cieyrin
2011-10-01, 12:33 PM
I updated the OP, updating the cost of 18-20x2 crit, and the weapons that had 18-20 crit ranges getting a slot back. Also added a paragraph explaining that overlapping benefits also overlap in cost, and giving an example. Hopefully that clears up that issue.

My 18-20 weapons are also updated. The Arbalest update doesn't actually work, though, since increasing its Crit mod costs 2 slots, not 1, due to the cost multiplier for increasing both sides. I'd recommend giving it a range increase.

Seerow
2011-10-01, 01:07 PM
My 18-20 weapons are also updated. The Arbalest update doesn't actually work, though, since increasing its Crit mod costs 2 slots, not 1, due to the cost multiplier for increasing both sides. I'd recommend giving it a range increase.

Huh? You initially had it at 100 range, I cut it down to 80 (giving it back 1 slot), and bumped it up to x3, which would cost that slot plus the slot freed up from reducing crit range cost.



Calculation:
Arbalest (Exotic Crossbow, 8 Slots)
1d12 (4 slots) + 18-20 (2 slots) x3 (1 slot * 2) = 8 slots.


Looks like it works to me.


[edit: Just realized you said that the cost multiplies for both sides. I never changed that. It still only multiplies the cost for the lower value. So two stage 1 upgrades still costs 3, a stage two and stage one upgrade costs 4, and two stage 2 upgrades costs 6. It is a little less than the actual scale of damage increase gained from the crit ranged, but 6 slots is cost intensive enough to keep most people away from it until looking at special material weapons, which should have nice things since that's the point.]



Also, any opinion on which way to handle damage dice above 2d6? Or alternate methods? Once that is decided, I'll probably need to update several weapons, and I'm thinking about cleaning up the first few posts, or just starting a full new thread (so I can have a separate post for current weapons, extra weapons, masterwork rules, Armor, and Special Materials, rather than compressing it all so much)

Cieyrin
2011-10-01, 03:29 PM
Huh? You initially had it at 100 range, I cut it down to 80 (giving it back 1 slot), and bumped it up to x3, which would cost that slot plus the slot freed up from reducing crit range cost.



Calculation:
Arbalest (Exotic Crossbow, 8 Slots)
1d12 (4 slots) + 18-20 (2 slots) x3 (1 slot * 2) = 8 slots.


Looks like it works to me.


[edit: Just realized you said that the cost multiplies for both sides. I never changed that. It still only multiplies the cost for the lower value. So two stage 1 upgrades still costs 3, a stage two and stage one upgrade costs 4, and two stage 2 upgrades costs 6. It is a little less than the actual scale of damage increase gained from the crit ranged, but 6 slots is cost intensive enough to keep most people away from it until looking at special material weapons, which should have nice things since that's the point.]

Bah, this is what I get for looking at my old notes instead of backanalyzing the presented stats. ~_~ Nevermind...


Also, any opinion on which way to handle damage dice above 2d6? Or alternate methods? Once that is decided, I'll probably need to update several weapons, and I'm thinking about cleaning up the first few posts, or just starting a full new thread (so I can have a separate post for current weapons, extra weapons, masterwork rules, Armor, and Special Materials, rather than compressing it all so much)

I think the scaling cost of Heavy Damage should work, as well as emphasizing that DM attention on customizing weapons is warranted.

On a different note, I had a proposal for bringing in special ammo: Masterwork ammo provides 1 slot of customization. So a flight arrow would have 1 slot worth of range, while a serpent tongue arrow would provide Extra Damage Type (Slashing) and do both damage types at the same time, etc.

Mangles
2011-10-01, 05:01 PM
I think option 1 is the better of the two ways to handle this. It keeps with the current idea of scaling dice and someone can go DAMAGE if they really want but would probably be better off taking crits or something like that. Still 6d6 is nothing to scoff at.

Might want to mention somewhere though that the rules for creating weapons are for medium creatures and that the damage dice should change if the weapon is created for creatures of a different size.

Seerow
2011-10-01, 06:42 PM
Okay, it seems you both prefer the first option. But while thinking about it, a couple problems occur to me that are admittedly pretty niche, let me know what you think about them:


1st) How should I handle the fullblade? It having a medium damage die of 2d8 throws off everything else, and ends up actually weaker always than bumping up to 3d6. Consider:

2d8 (9)
3d8 (13.5)
4d8 (18)
6d8 (27)
8d8 (36)

vs

3d6 (10.5)
4d6 (14)
6d6 (21)
8d6 (28)
12d6 (42)



Yet, both of these options would currently cost the same. Should I just bump Fullblade up to 3d6 base instead of the traditional 2d8? Or should increasing the damage die past 2d6 be an alternate option that costs 1 slot. (So you could go from 2d6 to 3d6 for 2 slots, or to 2d8 for 1 slot, or 2d10 for 2 slots. These two are fairly close together. But then scaling from here has its own problems. So it seems the better way to handle it would be just make the fullblade 3d6.



2nd) The way damage dice scale to a new size doesn't work quite as prettily as just "figure out what point on the chart you are and start going". The way the size scaling actually works is double your weapon damage every 2 sizes, with each step being the same increase.


So if you have 3d6 as a medium creature, you should have 4.5d6 as a large creature, and 6d6 as a huge. You can see where that would be a problem. This is something you could probably just handwave, and pretend like past 2d6 you were just scaling weapon sizes rather than base damage dice, but it feels to me like a good reason to keep weapon sizes as a even number of dice, rather than trying to follow size scaling rules.



For comparison's sake, the second method would involve more change from the default, but would result in a more consistent damage, curve that doesn't break outrageously even if extra slots are provided for in the future.

I'm thinking since going from 1d12 to 2d6 is actually an average damage increase and synergizes better with brutal, to account for that: You buy up to damage die size normally, but at d8 or d12, you can pay .5 slots to double the number of dice but reducing the die size to d4 or d6 respectively. Then scale normally again, with costs per increase = number of damage dice. Could make it all just a table:

{table=head]Base Damage Die | Slot Cost | Total Cost | Fine | Diminutive | Tiny | Small | Medium | Large | Huge | Gargantuan | Colossal
1d4 | 0 | 0 | - | 1 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 |1d6 | 2d4 | 3d4 | 4d4
1d6 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 |1d8 | 2d6 | 3d6 | 4d6
1d8 | 1 | 2 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 3d4 | 2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8
2d4 | .5 | 2.5 | 1d2 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 2d4 | 3d4 | 4d4 | 6d4 | 8d4
d10 | 1 | 3 | 1d3 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 |2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8 | 6d8
d12 | 1 | 4 | 1d3 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 1d12 | 3d6 | 4d6 | 6d6 | 8d6
2d6 |.5 | 4.5 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 3d6 |4d6 | 6d6 | 8d6
2d8 | 2 | 6.5 | 1d4 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8 | 6d8 | 8d8
4d4 | .5 | 7 | 1d4 | 1d6 |2d4 | 3d4 | 4d4 |6d4 | 8d4 | 12d4 | 16d4
2d10 | 2 | 8.5 | 1d6 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 2d10 | 3d10 | 4d10 | 6d10 | 8d10
2d12 | 2 | 10.5 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 3d6 | 2d12 | 3d12 | 4d12 | 6d12 | 8d12
4d6 | .5 | 11 | 1d8 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 3d6 | 4d6 | 6d6 | 8d6 | 12d6 | 16d6
4d8 | 4 | 15 | 1d10 | 2d6 | 2d8 | 3d8 | 4d8 |6d8 | 8d8 | 12d8 | 16d8
8d4 | .5 | 15.5 | 1d10 | 2d6 |4d4 | 6d4 | 8d4 | 12d4 | 16d4 | 24d4 | 32d4 [/table]

The table could be extrapolated further, but at this point the pattern is set, and no slot cost currently allowable will need more. (4d10 would be 19 slots, 4d12 would be 23 slots, and 8d6 would be 23.5 slots)




It is also worth re-emphasizing: The masterwork minor customization can be slotted into any game without too much trouble.

With the bigger impact special materials, the idea is to replace some of the more boring magic item properties eventually, so while a 4d6 base damage weapon seems like a lot, it's probably actually a toss up at best, net loss at worse, when compared to a typical +5 +xd6 weapon. Similarly when combined with the other subsystem, that replaces strength mod. The synergy between the two of these is pretty good, so it is probably a net gain, but not as scary of one as it seems at first.






On the subject of Masterwork Arrows: I should have thought of that. That will go in, but it does mean masterwork arrows need to be crafted specifically for their bow. Because otherwise it's pretty weird (well I put an increase crit range on this arrow... but the bow already has an increased crit range. Does it upgrade to 18-20? What if the bow is already 18-20, is my arrow just useless? Similar questions arise with damage. Unless you want to just say similar abilities overlap, sucks if your bow can already do that.

Amechra
2011-10-01, 11:19 PM
I like having single abilities overlap- after all, you could just NOT buy that given type of arrow.

You know, I'm actually ruminating on something based off of this...

I made a feat a while ago called Spellcrafter. It was meant as an e6 capstone feat, and it worked by allowing you to exchange the +1 from Masterwork with any +1 enhancement (so you could make a Flaming sword, or a Keen rapier, or what have you.)

So, here is my rumination: if you take a certain feat, you may craft your weapons and armor from a special "material" called magic.

What magic does is that it gives an extra 2~3 slots, and the crafter (i.e., you) gets to decide on two different 'tracks' for the weapon/armor.

For example, take a Magic Simple Two-Handed Weapon: it would have 6~7 slots, which we shall spend like so:

Finessable, Increase Crit Threat, Gain Reach, Double Damage on a Mounted Charge, Increased Damage Dice x2/3 (whichever floats your boat.)

And then we pick 5 slots of "magical properties", which work like so:

At 4th level, you can replace one slot of the normal enhancement with one slot of the Magical enhancements. Every 4 levels thereafter, you may swap a single extra slot over to the "magic" state.

Obviously, you would pick thematic magical abilities, like switching out the Finessable ability for one that allows you to use Charisma for your attack rolls, or swapping out the Double Damage on a Mounted Charge with some kind of speed increase.

And another suggestion: Weapon Focus should allow you to pick a single slot's worth of weapon upgrades that apply to every weapon of that given type that you pick up. So you could make it so you treat Greatswords as Finessable, or that you have Reach with daggers, or whatever.

And then every future iteration of Weapon Focus should grant you another slot.

Weapon Specialization would need to be altered, though, since I can't think of what to change it to...

Oh, an Improved Natural Attack? It should totally give you an upgrade slot instead of a size increase to your Natural weapon's damage. And then it should be allowed to be taken multiple times (maybe with the same general level prereqs that the Weapon Focus line has), so that you can run around with awesome claws of whatever you feel like!

Armor Specialization should work like Weapon Focus, as should Shield Specialization (or Focus; can't remember what it is actually called); there should also be an equivalent feat for Natural Armor.

And, to combo this with my earlier rumination, there can be a feat that essentially makes it so that any object you have the proper feats for can be made magical instead! Like making it so that every dagger you pick up starts spontaneously dripping poison, or that every single piece of banded mail you don bursts into awesome-looking flames.

Why this alteration for Weapon Focus and the like, you may ask? Because being extremely focused on a weapon should let you use it expertly, even if the weapon itself is of wimpy quality.

In other words, a master of fighting with clubs, say, should be capable of picking up a random piece of wood an kick ass with it.

Those are my two copper pieces, take of them what you will.

Seerow
2011-10-01, 11:43 PM
Hrm... my problem with the weapon focus and similar feats that you are talking about is they typically are really bad. Like even with these changes I'm considering making proficiencies work like:

Simple Weapons
-Everybody has them

Martial Weapons
-All Light Martial Weapons
-All One Handed Martial Weapons
-All Two Handed Martial Weapons
-All Ranged Martial Weapons

Exotic Weapons
-All Light Exotic Weapons (prerequisite, at least one light martial weapon)
-All One Handed Exotic Weapons (prerequisite, at least one one-handed martial weapon)
-All Two Handed Exotic Weapons (prerequisite, at least one two-handed martial weapon)
-All Ranged Exotic Weapons (prerequisite, at least 1 ranged martial weapon)


With each bullet point being a feat you can take, rather than a specific weapon. (You can still get individual proficiencies from a class, but if you blow a feat on it, you get the group). So now, you want a spiked chain? You get all Two Handed Exotics. So that feat is worth a fair bit, because in general, there's going to be an exotic weapon with a niche for whatever you want to do. This gives the feat a fair bit more versatility, making it more desirable. (Honestly I'm half tempted to just make it ALL martial and ALL exotics, rather than separating categories, but think that might be -too- broad).


Now say you make the Weapon Focus line work based like that. ie you take "Weapon Focus, 1-handed weapons". Well you can't pick one slot benefit that every one handed weapon you ever pick up won't have, because they're a pretty diverse lot. But just one set in stone ability is pretty rigid anyway. So what if we make it more flexible? Say as a swift action you can change what the bonus is. Now that weapon you can shift between having a higher crit/damage to having a bonus to disarming someone just before you make the attempt. Or you can now choose to use it for non-lethal damage without taking a penalty. Or you can get the extra mounted charge damage with it. Or now you can throw your greatsword. etc.

I mean, disallow something silly like double weapon (then again that costs 2 slots, so wouldn't be an issue unless you made a greater weapon focus... and actually double weapon just translating into you are so awesome you can use one weapon as two would be a pretty badass thing to do), but the vast majority of things seem like they would work, and would be pretty cool. So you have this floating point that you can use for all those niche things that you'd like to have but know won't come up frequently enough to actually spend a slot on it. I like the idea. (And it works similarly well for Armor and Shield spec, especially with resisting maneuvers and energy resistances, though those are harder to justify flavorwise)




Also, I am leaning towards agreeing with you on the Arrow thing. It just kind of sucks looting arrows that are masterwork for something that isn't compatible with your bow.



On the magical slots thing, I'd need to see more to comment. I'm not sure where the 5 magical slots came from (given that the magical property granted 3 slots), and the only magical property example I saw was cha to hit.

Personally I'm still partial to using special materials to replicate magical item properties (and would love a list of properties that could fit into this that I've missed, if anybody has favorites that didn't go in. I know I didn't cover even a fraction of what's out there), but there is still the possibility of epic materials that would come online around level 15 or so, and a weapon made out of raw magic sounds like it would fit into that category.

Amechra
2011-10-02, 12:06 AM
Well, the idea for "magic" is that you get X extra slots, and then at every level divisible by 4, you exchange 1 slot for a "magic slot".

"Magic Slots" will probably be something along the lines of:

1: Use Charisma to hit instead of normal ability score modifier.
.5: Deals a single type of energy damage as well as the normal type of damage (so Fire+Bludgeoning, or Sonic+Slashing. Essentially, it would be affected by the least effective of either DR or Energy Resistance.)

And the like.

Seerow
2011-10-02, 06:46 PM
Well, the idea for "magic" is that you get X extra slots, and then at every level divisible by 4, you exchange 1 slot for a "magic slot".

"Magic Slots" will probably be something along the lines of:

1: Use Charisma to hit instead of normal ability score modifier.
.5: Deals a single type of energy damage as well as the normal type of damage (so Fire+Bludgeoning, or Sonic+Slashing. Essentially, it would be affected by the least effective of either DR or Energy Resistance.)

And the like.

I dunno. I'll have to think on it. I already have the seed of an idea how I'd like actual magic items to work, and this is pretty radically different from what I was thinking, while not being much further developed than what I have in mind.

Like ideally, I'd like to see actual magic items be basically the incarnum subsystem, but everyone uses it for actual items. Magic items do things that are interesting, and you can invest more essentia/essence/whatever, to make that item more powerful. So you can have a character with a couple of magic items bound strongly, or a character with a dozen magic items bound loosely, and both should be equally viable.

But all of the +x hit/damage, or +y stat, or +z to a skill, should be pretty much gone. Where needed those could be rolled into levelup stats, but you can already see where my goal has been to roll the +damage portion of magic weapons into the more mundane side of things, so ideally all that would be needed is a base save increase, and some +stats.

The devil of course is in the details, coming up with conversions for a couple hundred magic items to keep them interesting is a lot of long boring work, which is why months later I still haven't gotten around to doing it :(.






As an aside, I am working on updating and reformatting all of the information. I've currently got the majority of it done. I need to update Making New Weapons, Special Materials, and write up Weapon/Armor feats still. That first section should be pretty quick to update, but the materials I think need to be overhauled, especially the armor benefits now that I've changed up the armor bases, so making special materials give heavier armor a much higher benefit isn't needed.

Amechra
2011-10-02, 07:41 PM
Incarnum is a decent system to use for magical items...

You know what would be interesting? If you "built" your magic; for example, you have a single, main effect, and each character gets to make a "personal" effect.

So your Magic Boots of Awesome would be different than if someone else uses them.

Seerow
2011-10-02, 10:31 PM
I just want to comment-Holy **** this project has grown a lot. Right now, I just pasted out of notepad and into word to do a wordcount: The document is 23 pages long, representing 5,725 words, and 31,708 characters. I have no idea what the post limit is here, but I get the feeling that's pushing it.

And this still doesn't have the updated special materials :/



You know what would be interesting? If you "built" your magic; for example, you have a single, main effect, and each character gets to make a "personal" effect.

So your Magic Boots of Awesome would be different than if someone else uses them.

Out of curiosity, how would you codify that? Everyone getting a custom effect is cool in theory, but to make it an actual system you need to be able to categorize it. And if you make the personalization too deep, you loose a lot of the difference between items. I'd rather have items that are more meaningful when you get them, than have "get any item you can find and have the same basic effects"

Amechra
2011-10-02, 11:24 PM
I mean that everyone picks something from a list; something equivalent to a skill trick, say, and then gains access to it in relation to your magical items.

For example. one could be repairing damage to your magical item; another could be, I dunno, that you magic item works within a certain radius, without you even touching it.

Or such-like.

Cieyrin
2011-10-03, 10:52 AM
I just want to comment-Holy **** this project has grown a lot. Right now, I just pasted out of notepad and into word to do a wordcount: The document is 23 pages long, representing 5,725 words, and 31,708 characters. I have no idea what the post limit is here, but I get the feeling that's pushing it.

And this still doesn't have the updated special materials :/

You got room yet, the character limit is 50k on posts, I believe.

Seerow
2011-10-03, 11:38 AM
Huh well that's good to know. For some reason I thought I was already pushing that cap. This means I can update what I have now into the first post, and still have some room to grow and make the second post special materials and possibly magic properties.

I guess I'll go ahead and update now.



edit: And the first two posts are now updated. I did rework the armor a bit more from the draft I posted earlier, to the point where I got what I feel is a well working system out of it. I also reintroduced the armors I had previously cut, giving them a few points worth of properties to differentiate them from the other armors. Though the properties chosen had no particular reason, so if they strike you as too weird or something else would fit better, I'm open to suggestion there.

I also did decide to go with the second option for balancing weapon damage, because I felt the scaling towards the extremes worked better, and if I intend to allow more stuff that boosts slots at the late game, that could end up making or breaking the system, as it is the difference between the weapon having 12d6 base damage or 4d8 base damage. Quite a large gap, that only gets bigger the further the scaling goes.

As for the special materials, I did update the post on them, but it was primarily just getting rid of the different benefits for different classes of armor, and making all armor gain the same benefit. I would still love suggestions on other properties for armors (or weapons) that would be fitting. Things that are more on the supernatural end of things are preferred.

I'm also considering having some of those armor properties scale with level somehow. While getting 1d6 fire damage from a dragonbone weapon is nice around level 6, by higher levels you're better off just getting a bonus slot weapon. But then I'm not sure how much sense you being stronger making your weapons and armor stronger works. Any opinions on this?

Amechra
2011-10-03, 05:23 PM
Have it deal amalgam damage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10068.40) between fire and whatever damage type it was originally, and then deal an extra 1d6 damage.

Seerow
2011-10-03, 06:00 PM
Have it deal amalgam damage (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10068.40) between fire and whatever damage type it was originally, and then deal an extra 1d6 damage.

I guess that could work. Though I'd probably make it one extra [weapon] die, and have it give no bonus slots. So you could have a 10 slot weapon (maximum damage 2d10 I believe, at 8.5 slots invested in damage. Alternatively 4d4 costs 7 slots. Raising any further for either takes it above 10, though with Greater Weapon Focus you could technically get a 2d12 damage), vs a 13 slot maximum with other materials.


Also, any other suggestions for properties for special materials? Offensive or defensive. I'll probably do a dive through MIC or something soon.

Gideon Falcon
2011-10-07, 10:12 PM
When I first went over the original version of this, I thought it was awesome. Now I see the current version, and I am awestruck. This is a masterpiece of homebrew. I love it.

flabort
2011-10-08, 10:35 PM
I can make almost exactly the same weapon with Jiriku's (Top of page 3) and Seerow's (OP's) methods of creating weapons.
(Assuming I understand Seerow's right, his is a bit fuzzy when it comes to double weapons)

Jiriku's method:
9 slots:

Exotic 0
Double Weapon 2
Monk 2
slashing 1
finesse 1
dirt cheap 1
reach + adjacent 2
20/x2 0
1d1 damage 0

Exotic 0
double weapon 2
monk 2
bludgeoning 1
finesse 1
dirt cheap 1
Trip 1
20/x2 0
1d4 damage 1


1d1 slashing (reach + adjacent) 20/x2 // 1d4 bludgeoning (Adjacent, tripping) 20/x2
Exotic, Monk, finesse, "dirt cheap", double weapon.

(If remove "dirt cheap")
1d4 slashing (reach + adjacent) 20/x2 // 1d4 bludgeoning (adjacent, tripping) 19-20/x2
Exotic, Monk, finesse, double weapon.



Seerow's Method:
8 slots

exotic (0)
Two Handed (0)
d4 base
20/x2 base
Finessible (1)
Monk Weapon (1)
Double weapon (2)
Bludgeoning | Slashing
Tripping (.5) | Reach (1), +adjacent (really reach x2) (+1 (=2))
Increase threat range (1) | Settable (.5)

1d4 slashing (reach + adjacent, settable against a Charge) 20/x2 // 1d4 bludgeoning (adjacent, tripping) 19-20/x2
Exotic, Monk, finessible, double weapon.


In both cases, it ends up being a double weapon, dealing 1d4 damage on either end. It has a slashing side, which can hit adjacent or reach, and a bludgeoning side, which isn't reach-able, but can be used to trip, and has a 19-20 crit range.
Both are exotic, finessible monk weapons.

The only difference is that with Seerow's method, the slashing side can be set against a charge, because I had half a point left over.

Nice.

NineThePuma
2011-11-12, 05:14 PM
Crossbows got shafted pretty hard, didn't they? Light Crossbows are no longer "one handed" so to speak, while nothing but easy load crossbows actually have a listed reload speed.

Rather than keep it as is, I recommend that you bump the crossbow up from a base 4 to a base 5, then have reloading be a standard action; it can cost a slot (or half a slot) to move that reload down to a move action. Maybe add a trait that let's it be used as a one handed weapon, with the Hand Crossbow Trait letting it be used as a Light weapon.

Seerow
2011-11-12, 05:50 PM
Honestly, until your PM, I was unaware that Light Crossbows could be fired one handed. Probably because that -2 attack roll penalty makes it not worth doing.

Though it has got me thinking about how to handle crossbows. I think you're right that Crossbows aren't up to par with other weapons, but disagree that they're worse off than they are in core.


I think the big problem is the difference between a Crossbow and a Bow is 10ft of range and 1 slot. So like 1.5 slots worth of bonuses for the crossbow. So getting a easy loading crossbow should translate into about that difference. One Handed should cost a little more, but the difference in a one handed weapon and two handed weapon is only 1 slot, so that's probably more what the hand crossbow property should cost.

So right now I'm thinking One-Handed property is only 1 point, repeating costs 1 point, and easy loading costs 1.5 slots. This makes it so that after picking up those properties, the crossbow is pretty much the same as the bow. Also considering adding a property for ranged weapons that can add dex to damage for 1.5 slots and can't be taken with str to ranged damage property (or possibly with double cost to add both a la crit, in which case I may also make it something that can be added to melee).


Edit: I went ahead and did the easy loading/repeating/hand crossbow changes. Apparently my exotic crossbows had previously been pretty hugely over budget so not a lot of change was needed. Light Crossbow now acts as a hand crossbow rather than having a longer range, which makes more sense anyway.

NineThePuma
2011-11-12, 06:25 PM
Part of the problem, I think, is that WotC overvalued range. Compare a Fighter 6 specializing in a bow to one specializing in a melee weapon. The one with the bow is probably only just getting it off the ground, but the Melee has Shocktrooper & Leap Attack running or some such.

Combine with the fact that Crossbows are Simple Weapons and thus more widely available and you end up with a weapon that's already fairly below average. This system leaves them in the same fairly crippled position. You make a point about bows being a one point difference, but fail to notice that every non-exotic bow is martial, and every non-exotic crossbow is simple, evening them out. Bows have their Strength To Damage bonus, free action reload, and deal basically the same damage. Crossbows can't get Strength to damage in a way that makes sense (which makes things like Power Shot or (using your rebalance) Piercing Shot), have to spend a valuable slot to get the free action reload, and are much less supported in core (no manyshot, only a few exclusive goodies in later splats).

Crossbows were already shafted by WotC. Your system presents a chance to un-shaft them, and so I'm going to present it.

Edit: Ninja'd by the edit.

Seerow
2011-11-12, 07:07 PM
Part of the problem, I think, is that WotC overvalued range. Compare a Fighter 6 specializing in a bow to one specializing in a melee weapon. The one with the bow is probably only just getting it off the ground, but the Melee has Shocktrooper & Leap Attack running or some such.

Combine with the fact that Crossbows are Simple Weapons and thus more widely available and you end up with a weapon that's already fairly below average. This system leaves them in the same fairly crippled position. You make a point about bows being a one point difference, but fail to notice that every non-exotic bow is martial, and every non-exotic crossbow is simple, evening them out. Bows have their Strength To Damage bonus, free action reload, and deal basically the same damage. Crossbows can't get Strength to damage in a way that makes sense (which makes things like Power Shot or (using your rebalance) Piercing Shot), have to spend a valuable slot to get the free action reload, and are much less supported in core (no manyshot, only a few exclusive goodies in later splats).

Crossbows were already shafted by WotC. Your system presents a chance to un-shaft them, and so I'm going to present it.

Well with the reductions in slot costs for easy loading more or less bridges the gap. It also lets someone get easy loading with just masterwork, which is nice.

I can see the argument that a Martial Crossbow would be nice to have, and I could add one or two under the new weapons category, if anyone can think of names. They'd basically just be the simple weapons with probably a +1 damage die, or something else universally good.


On the note of feats and how they interact with crossbows, and how ranged weapons get hosed in general, that's a problem with individual feats that needs to be addressed separately. The important thing here is making sure the weapons themselves are relatively balanced with each other.

NineThePuma
2011-11-12, 07:14 PM
You still need to specify the "normal" reload time for a crossbow.

Seerow
2011-11-12, 07:22 PM
You still need to specify the "normal" reload time for a crossbow.

It's specified as a move action in the original post. Though now that I look at it, it's in the creating a new weapon section. I'll add it into the definitions under the main weapons as well to make it easier to find.

NineThePuma
2011-11-12, 07:41 PM
For Martial Crossbows, what about moving the 'Repeating' property out of Exotic territory?

I think that short of "Great Crossbow" we're not going to find a good name for a Martial Crossbow, but a 1d12 19-20/x2 works out mathematically. Alternatively, 2d6, 20/x2 is possible, but doesn't really fit with the others.

Light & Heavy Repeaters as Martials works and makes a "Crossbow" focused martial build theoretically possible.

The Exotic Arbalest strikes me as less of a super special weapon in this case (in fact, all the Exotic Crossbows seem like they could probably be downgraded to Masterwork Only.)

And everything for making new weapons seems scattered around.

I've got a Hunting Bow in front of me, as a Simple Weapon, but 1d6, x3, 90 range seems like it doesn't fit with the others (though a 1d8, x3, 70 is identical to the Riding Bow otherwise...)

Seerow
2011-11-12, 08:25 PM
For Martial Crossbows, what about moving the 'Repeating' property out of Exotic territory?

I think that short of "Great Crossbow" we're not going to find a good name for a Martial Crossbow, but a 1d12 19-20/x2 works out mathematically. Alternatively, 2d6, 20/x2 is possible, but doesn't really fit with the others.

Light & Heavy Repeaters as Martials works and makes a "Crossbow" focused martial build theoretically possible.

1d12 19-20x2 works for a Great Crossbow.

I guess you could then have a Repeating Crossbow which is 1d10 19-20x2 repeating, and a light repeater with 1d8.



The Exotic Arbalest strikes me as less of a super special weapon in this case (in fact, all the Exotic Crossbows seem like they could probably be downgraded to Masterwork Only.)

Well the Arbalest still has that nice x3 crit damage, which costs it 2 of its 3 extra bonus slots from being exotic. I'm fine with leaving the exotic crossbows that are still there (I removed a few of them when doing the updates earlier, and may remove another couple with the next update), just to have a somewhat stronger base for a crossbow user who wants to pick up exotic proficiencies.


And everything for making new weapons seems scattered around.

I've got a Hunting Bow in front of me, as a Simple Weapon, but 1d6, x3, 90 range seems like it doesn't fit with the others (though a 1d8, x3, 70 is identical to the Riding Bow otherwise...)

Yeah the material did get kind of scattered with the reformat because rather than upgrades/new weapons being the centerpiece, the rebalanced weapons themselves became the main thing. Which meant that the weapons table had to come first, and for the weapon table to make sense you need a listing of what the properties do... but the slot costs of those properties, and the base values of weapons had to go under creating/upgrading weapons.


Edit: Updated. Repeating Crossbow is now a Martial Weapon. The Light Repeating Crossbow and Great Crossbow have been added.

I'm still on the fence about the dex to damage weapon property (being left for exotic weapons, like str to damage is for bows), any opinion on that?

NineThePuma
2011-11-12, 08:43 PM
How would the Dex To Damage trait interact with Crossbow Sniper?

I'm mentally generating a Super Crossbow, code named the Deathbow; it's currently a 4d4 Repeater; at base. Masterwork would add Easy Loading and an extra 10ft range. Masterwork crossbow bolts with Brutal twice places minimum damage at 12-16 each shot. Not particularly powerful if I'm honest, but it's more damage than a greatsword. Swap Repeater for the One Handed trait, and dual wield them.

Seerow
2011-11-12, 08:55 PM
How would the Dex To Damage trait interact with Crossbow Sniper?

I'd imagine they'd overlap not stack. The idea is to kill unnecessary feat tax like Crossbow sniper.

...Though come to think of it I'm not horribly offended by someone spending a feat and their masterwork upgrade to use a crossbow for dex*1.5 bonus damage, matching what a two handed melee weapon can do by default.

NineThePuma
2011-11-12, 08:59 PM
Last question, because my mind is getting sidetracked into Mecha.

How well does this integrate with the rebalanced combat styles?

Edit: Also, if I beat you up, do I get 15 silver points? :smallbiggrin:

Seerow
2011-11-12, 09:32 PM
Last question, because my mind is getting sidetracked into Mecha.

How well does this integrate with the rebalanced combat styles?

Edit: Also, if I beat you up, do I get 15 silver points? :smallbiggrin:

1) They should integrate just fine. I can't think of anything that would conflict, though I would have to go through with a fine toothed comb to be sure. The intent of this project was to mostly keep things in line with normal weapons, so it can integrate with anything else 3.5. That's partially why I'm on the fence about the dex to damage thing, because the rebalanced weapon styles already provide that bonus... which brings it down to wondering if it should be a feat effect or a weapon property.

2) Yes. Yes you would.


edit: Added Heavy Thrown property, coutesy of 4th edition. Added it as a property to javelins, but aside from that left it as something to pick up on a masterwork.

Seerow
2011-11-13, 12:51 PM
Update:

-Organized the tables in the OP, so weapons and properties are alphabetized.

-Added a column to the weapon properties for ammunition, so it is clear what can and cannot be added to ammunition. (I disallowed crit increasing and damage die increasing on ammunition, just to avoid the confusing issue of how they stack, which has been nagging at me.)

-Added a new ammunition only property that gives a flat bonus to damage to compensate for this, for those who really want their higher damage ammo.

-Updated the property table to include the new properties, which for some reason never happened before, so the only place with the slot costs for those was Cieyrin's post.

-Moved the property descriptions all the way down to the upgrading weapons/armor. This is to keep the upgrading/making new stuff all in one general area. I'm still not sure on this, and may end up moving it back though, because it seems weird to have to go into making new stuff to find out what the core stuff does.

-Added brief descriptions of the 4 major weapon types, mostly copy/pasted from the SRD, with a few changes under ranged weapons to reflect updates.

-Added a new property in the tables listing bows/crossbows. This is to be able to differentiate them from other ranged weapons even when bow/crossbow isn't in the name (Such as the Arbalest). This did require pushing back some of the other properties, while I believe the table is 100% updated correctly, if you notice any errors, please point them out.

Cieyrin
2011-11-14, 01:50 PM
While we're on the topic of non-bows, mayhaps it's time to revisit the issue of slings? I know you weren't particularly pleased with how the best solution was to make 'em one-handed weapons so they can do what they do. I've since seen further justification for melee with slings, via a PF feat that lets you melee with one like it was a mini-flail, so maybe this can work out alright.

Seerow
2011-11-14, 01:56 PM
Random thought that just occured to me: What if Bows/Crossbows rather than having a really high base range, had a property that gave them a little range for free with each damage die?

ie we can standardize all ranged weapons to say 50ft base range, and make each damage die increase give either 5 or 10ft extra range (probably 10ft).

This would open up non-bow ranged weapons to be a little less crappy, and make the difference in a throwing melee weapon and throwing weapon not intended for melee more pronounced. Because as it is there is almost no reason to have a ranged weapon that's not a bow.






While we're on the topic of non-bows, mayhaps it's time to revisit the issue of slings? I know you weren't particularly pleased with how the best solution was to make 'em one-handed weapons so they can do what they do. I've since seen further justification for melee with slings, via a PF feat that lets you melee with one like it was a mini-flail, so maybe this can work out alright.


Well I was pretty much okay with the idea after you convinced me to change it. Though if I go with the change above, we could make slings ranged weapons again, and add a property that lets the ranged weapon be used in melee with a slight penalty to damage (and probably a feat could be made that eliminates that penalty, though it would need something else to really be worthwhile).



edit: Another thought. Someone over on BG suggested a change to the fortification mechanic, making fortification in general just +AC vs crit confirmation. In the case of sneak attack and similar mechanics you have to beat the target's AC by more than their fortification value to get the bonus damage. So say you are fighting someone with 20 AC and fortification 4, if you roll below a 20, you miss. If you roll 20-23, you deal normal damage. If you roll a 24 or higher, you deal sneak attack damage.

I was thinking rolling that into this system would be good, especially since I already have a mechanic for adding +crit confirm and light fortification to armor, may as well streamline it.

Cieyrin
2011-11-15, 10:49 AM
Well I was pretty much okay with the idea after you convinced me to change it. Though if I go with the change above, we could make slings ranged weapons again, and add a property that lets the ranged weapon be used in melee with a slight penalty to damage (and probably a feat could be made that eliminates that penalty, though it would need something else to really be worthwhile).

Could work out.


edit: Another thought. Someone over on BG suggested a change to the fortification mechanic, making fortification in general just +AC vs crit confirmation. In the case of sneak attack and similar mechanics you have to beat the target's AC by more than their fortification value to get the bonus damage. So say you are fighting someone with 20 AC and fortification 4, if you roll below a 20, you miss. If you roll 20-23, you deal normal damage. If you roll a 24 or higher, you deal sneak attack damage.

I was thinking rolling that into this system would be good, especially since I already have a mechanic for adding +crit confirm and light fortification to armor, may as well streamline it.

Hmm, neat. Replace extra dice rolls with a little extra math. Pros and cons to that, depending how you feel about math. I'm merely intrigued.

Seerow
2011-11-15, 05:46 PM
Okay, I updated all of the ranged weapons, reformatted the original post again, into something I'm pretty happy with this time. If there's any errors from the movements that I missed, please point them out to me. I also haven't included a sling feat yet because I'm not sure if eliminating that penalty is a good enough benefit. It's also pretty narrow, which goes against the idea of the rest of the feats (consolidating stuff together). Maybe a general ranged weapon benefit feat that includes that as a perk?

NineThePuma
2011-11-15, 06:52 PM
Stupid question, but do masterwork and special materials stack?

Also, do special materials that grant a magic property boost the effective enhancement bonus of the item?

Also: Armor, how does it handle customization and making "custom" armor beyond the Core armors?

Seerow
2011-11-15, 07:47 PM
Stupid question, but do masterwork and special materials stack?

Also, do special materials that grant a magic property boost the effective enhancement bonus of the item?

Yes and No. It is worth noting that the special materials are intended to be a power up, as I intend to use them alongside a overhauled magic item system I haven't gotten around to finishing. You can use them as written with a normal game and just the rules posted, but it will be a definite power increase, so keep that in mind.



Also: Armor, how does it handle customization and making "custom" armor beyond the Core armors?

Wow I apparently lost that section somewhere along the way, or forgot to put it in completely. You get 2 bonus slots for masterwork armor, just like with weapons. I'll add that in later tonight or tomorrow. If you meant something else, please clarify.

NineThePuma
2011-11-15, 07:54 PM
I'd like to rtract my final question there. I found it on a more in depth reading.

Cieyrin
2011-11-15, 07:54 PM
Okay, I updated all of the ranged weapons, reformatted the original post again, into something I'm pretty happy with this time. If there's any errors from the movements that I missed, please point them out to me. I also haven't included a sling feat yet because I'm not sure if eliminating that penalty is a good enough benefit. It's also pretty narrow, which goes against the idea of the rest of the feats (consolidating stuff together). Maybe a general ranged weapon benefit feat that includes that as a perk?

I likes the cut of your jib, giving the best of both worlds, letting thrown support still work on slings but making 'em proper ranged weapons, along with other thrown weapons getting a like boost.

As for the melee sling feat, why not just have a special ability to deal with that that you can masterwork in? Call it a 1 slot ability.

Seerow
2011-11-15, 08:03 PM
I likes the cut of your jib, giving the best of both worlds, letting thrown support still work on slings but making 'em proper ranged weapons, along with other thrown weapons getting a like boost.

As for the melee sling feat, why not just have a special ability to deal with that that you can masterwork in? Call it a 1 slot ability.

Fair enough, as long as I don't have to add one with it to the prebuilt weapons (seriously that list of properties under the tables is monstrous. I wish I could find a way around it). It does feel a little unfair to light throwing weapons though (given for 1 slot you turn a throwing weapon into effectively a light weapon while keeping 50ft range. Meanwhile adding throwing to a Light Weapon only gets you 10ft range, but the same stats otherwise). Maybe make it a full two slots? It'd still be better than the Accurate Property (2 slots for +2 to hit and +2 damage in melee vs just +2 to hit) in exchange for being less universal.

Kurtmuran
2011-11-17, 11:47 AM
how looks the weapon named ripper?

Cieyrin
2011-11-17, 12:03 PM
how looks the weapon named ripper?

If you're asking what it looks like, it's essentially a barbed spear. It's from the Planar Handbook.

NineThePuma
2011-11-18, 04:52 AM
I would increase the cost of splitting damage dice; despite what the "average" says, the probabilities are weighted quite heavily toward that average (which is SLIGHTLY higher than the pre-split average. This makes splitting damage dice almost universally more preferable than the Brutal property, despite theoretically similar properties (and also because brutal's price is jacked up over time).

Please clarify what happens when you have a 19-20/x3 critical weapon in the text. I figured it out, but had to rip the data out of an exotic weapon to do it.

Can you stack the +1 damage or the +1 accuracy traits?

Can you build a bow out of, say, Silverwood for the extra slots, and then use arrows of a different material?

Edit; Also, mithril is stupidly good for armor.

Seerow
2011-11-18, 11:55 AM
I would increase the cost of splitting damage dice; despite what the "average" says, the probabilities are weighted quite heavily toward that average (which is SLIGHTLY higher than the pre-split average. This makes splitting damage dice almost universally more preferable than the Brutal property, despite theoretically similar properties (and also because brutal's price is jacked up over time).

I was originally going to have splitting dice increase in cost by the number of damage dice split, a la brutal. (So going from 1->2 dice is .5, 2->4 dice is 1), but it's so hard to actually get to the 2d8 point where you can split a second time (costs 6.5 slots), I figured it's fine to just let that stay a little cheaper.

I'm however not going to make splitting dice cost a full slot, that's too much of a cost for too little benefit. You are right in pointing out it weights things more towards average, and while that means you are less likely to get the minimum, you are also less likely to get the maximum, which can be important as well.


Please clarify what happens when you have a 19-20/x3 critical weapon in the text. I figured it out, but had to rip the data out of an exotic weapon to do it.

You mean something like "Double the lower cost property when combining two crit modifiers. For example 19-20x4 uses 1 slot for 19-20, 2 slots for x4. The 19-20 cost gets doubled to 2, making the combined cost 4 slots rather than the normal 3. "?


Can you stack the +1 damage or the +1 accuracy traits?

I guess I should put an explicit answer in there. I think I'm going to say yes to damage, (as it's meant to replace bigger damage dice on ammo) and no to accuracy.


Can you build a bow out of, say, Silverwood for the extra slots, and then use arrows of a different material?

Edit; Also, mithril is stupidly good for armor.

Not quite sure on this. And yes I have been procrastinating on the special material properties because they're a lot harder to actually balance. I think I may need to give up on the idea of giving them bonus slots to compensate for a weaker property, because giving a couple mundane properties in exchange for a really good magic or unique property is a bad tradeoff.


Right now I'd lean towards no on the Bow, if things do stay the way they are. Bows and other ammunition based weaponry already have an advantage in being able to masterwork both the bow and the ammo. While ranged is typically weaker anyway, so the advantage can be okay, it doesn't need to be made a bigger advantage by getting double the special material upgrades. On the other hand, flavorwise it makes sense that a bow could be made from a special wood for a bonus, and you could compare the benefit to two weapon fighting, where both weapons get their own upgrades (though that's a slightly unfair comparison given that the bow gets its full attack at once with all of the upgrades combined)

NineThePuma
2011-11-18, 12:22 PM
1) I'm just math crafting, but there's a significant net boost in probabilities of certain damage ranges. Higher weapon damage is (theoretically) only important at low levels anyway. But I digress, that's neither here nor there.

2) Read what I said again. Your example has an explicit "more costly" ability. My example does not. Do they both double? Does one double? Since they're equal, neither should double, at which point why pay 4 for 19-20/x4 when you can pay 4 slots for 18-20/x4?

3) there goes my Nonthreatening Super Cutty Blade to abuse Iaijutsu Focus with that has enough pluses to never miss anyway. Oh well. Now I actually have to optimize to-hit. (this is mostly joking. I built such a weapon, but as the accuracy thingy didn't say it could stack I assumed it couldn't.)

4) Materials are fun. I'm a little wary of the Adamantine materials though. And Cold Iron. It feels like everything should have some special goodies. Especially cause it's very easy to run out of slots.

Seerow
2011-11-18, 12:41 PM
1) Well yeah, you are statistically more likely to get a result closer to the average because there are more possible results that do so. I however think that this is not a huge advantage that warrants a higher cost, since this comes at the cost of less likely to get maximum damage. The average is still what matters here.

As for weapon damage dice not mattering past low level, you're right. Personally I also use this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216528) to keep the weapon damage relevant at higher levels. (It's also why I explicitly defined the damage scaling of weapons rather than increasing as if it was increasing size categories, as doing it that way caused damage to get catastrophically high by low to mid levels)

2) Updated the example to clarify that scenario.

3) Heh. Well for the future, I pretty much explicitly said "You can take this multiple times" on things that can. If I missed that on anything that should have it, let me know.

4) Yeah, I'd still want to fix special materials, what I'm wondering is if I should continue trying to balance it with slots at all, or just give them all a flat 1 slot bonus and actual properties.

NineThePuma
2011-11-18, 06:02 PM
1:
Well, the problem I see is that while Brutal bumps up the average by eliminating lower results, the cost gets much less bang for your buck as you scale up. The price is right (.5 slot cost for an increase of .5 damage, which pretty much everything else fits) but... Alright, you spend 6.5 points to get a 2d8 weapon. Your average damage per roll is 9; with brutal, that goes up to 10, with a higher chance of that average damage, for a slot cost of 7.5; or you can go ahead and spend .5 to split your damage dice again for the exact same effect, but also a wider range of possibilities. At this point, splitting the damage dice is, theoretically, the best thing you can do for your average damage.

Course, this is all math crafting, so it ultimately doesn't matter.

3) you had it on almost everything, but I was curious about that one, since I was trying to diversify a character's equipment some. He ended up with a 4d4 (18-20/x4) two hander, which reminds me that I need to do math checking to see if there's a scenario where maximizing your critical chances aren't preferred. Since I already had a pure damage beat stick, I wanted to exemplify something else with his other gear. His "long sword" ended up with a bunch of random traits, cause I didn't wan it to be a rehash of the giant beat stick.

4) I'd say two slot, and standardized abilities all around.

5) the armor crafting rules seem very slightly wonky. They work, but I got confused along the way. Recommend that you spell out a couple things about it, as it's entirely possible to build what I think of as "the fire retardant shirt" as mythril light armor and just spend as much as you can get away with on fire resist.

Seerow
2011-11-18, 06:18 PM
1:
Well, the problem I see is that while Brutal bumps up the average by eliminating lower results, the cost gets much less bang for your buck as you scale up. The price is right (.5 slot cost for an increase of .5 damage, which pretty much everything else fits) but... Alright, you spend 6.5 points to get a 2d8 weapon. Your average damage per roll is 9; with brutal, that goes up to 10, with a higher chance of that average damage, for a slot cost of 7.5; or you can go ahead and spend .5 to split your damage dice again for the exact same effect, but also a wider range of possibilities. At this point, splitting the damage dice is, theoretically, the best thing you can do for your average damage.


Well you could make this an argument for brutal being weak, and needing to not have its cost scale with damage dice. But here's how I see it:

2d6:
2-2.7%
3-5.5%
4-8.3%
5-11.1%
6-13.8%
7-16.6%
8-13.8%
9-11.1%
10-8.3%
11-5.5%
12-2.7%

1d12 brutal 1
2-9.1%
3-9.1%
4-9.1%
5-9.1%
6-9.1%
7-9.1%
8-9.1%
9-9.1%
10-9.1%
11-9.1%
12-9.1%

(Note I did round off at only one decimal point, so rounding error applies and these may not add up to exactly 100%)

So you have a significantly better chance of rolling a 10 or above, and 4 or below, while a worse chance of rolling a 5-9. I think getting that maximum damage value about 4 times more often makes up for the fact that you also roll minimum that much more often. It's swingier damage compared to regular damage, but there are people who enjoy that.



3) He ended up with a 4d4 (18-20/x4) two hander, which reminds me that I need to do math checking to see if there's a scenario where maximizing your critical chances aren't preferred.

For pure DPR it probably depends on how many bonus damage sources you can get that can be multiplied on a crit. For example, a rogue would probably ironically benefit least from a high crit weapon since all his sneak attack dice gain nothing from critting. However even then if he uses something like Shadow Hand crit could become more valuable.



5) the armor crafting rules seem very slightly wonky. They work, but I got confused along the way. Recommend that you spell out a couple things about it, as it's entirely possible to build what I think of as "the fire retardant shirt" as mythril light armor and just spend as much as you can get away with on fire resist.

Yeah, you can push elemental resist values pretty high at the cost of actual armor. I wanted to give the same kind of diversity that was available for weapons and that was one of the few ways I could think of. I could maybe cap off elemental resists, or make a cap for custom armors (so an armor can't have more than 4 elemental resist base, but masterwork or special material armor can have significantly more).

If the wonkiness is something like a high max dex no ACP heavy armor though, that's intended. Though I probably should put like a minimum 1/2/3 armor bonus for light/medium/heavy armor, and adjust slot mods accordingly.

NineThePuma
2011-11-18, 06:29 PM
The wonk had more to do with the way the rules are laid out. It's not very clear that armors start with 0 AC and 0 max dex mod, and it's relatively easy to assume that you missed something in there.

On the other hand, having 3 AC/3 MD/0 ACP/Resistance 5 or so to F/A/C/E was totally worth it.

Hmmm... Would it be possible to add faults to armor in return for more slots, or would that be a horrible thing? *Is thinking something like an elemental vulnerability*

Seerow
2011-11-18, 06:32 PM
The wonk had more to do with the way the rules are laid out. It's not very clear that armors start with 0 AC and 0 max dex mod, and it's relatively easy to assume that you missed something in there.

On the other hand, having 3 AC/3 MD/0 ACP/Resistance 5 or so to F/A/C/E was totally worth it.

[quote]Hmmm... Would it be possible to add faults to armor in return for more slots, or would that be a horrible thing? *Is thinking something like an elemental vulnerability*


That's actually basically what ACP already is (you take ACP to get bonus slots to spend on other things). I suppose we could add other stuff in along with it, and make it "max X slots worth of negative slots"

I'll see about updating it in a bit.

NineThePuma
2011-11-18, 06:38 PM
Well, while you're tinkering, I'm gonna do some math and figure out what the "most optimal" DPR weapon is, though I suspect that it's the 4d4 (18-20/x4) and figure out where the "breakpoints" are.

Seerow
2011-11-18, 06:49 PM
Well, while you're tinkering, I'm gonna do some math and figure out what the "most optimal" DPR weapon is, though I suspect that it's the 4d4 (18-20/x4) and figure out where the "breakpoints" are.

That's what 11 slots? A two handed exotic is 8, if materials were changed so they only gave one or two bonus slots that wouldn't be possible, even with a custom built weapon, unless you spent a feat on weapon spec and gave up the best benefit of it (that is being able to switch **** around at will. Because spending a swift action to get a +4 to any maneuver or **** like that is nice).

Also don't forget to compare stuff like deadly (+crit confirm is generally underrated).

NineThePuma
2011-11-18, 07:01 PM
I'm just doing raw "by the numbers" stuff.

And that's actually 13 slots, IIRC.

Seerow
2011-11-18, 07:06 PM
I'm just doing raw "by the numbers" stuff.

And that's actually 13 slots, IIRC.

Yeah you're right, it's 13. I typed 11 but was thinking 13 (8+2 masterwork+1 material = 11, so would have been possible with 11 slots).


But based on the numbers I ran earlier, 18-20x4 is actually slightly more efficient damagewise for what it does than the other crit bonuses. And of course, in a no-weapon damage scaling environment crit almost always scales better, so you'll probably find going all out on crit is the way to go.

I would be curious to see how the weapon damage scaling thing I linked you alters that though. I can see that making weapon damage valuable enough to outweigh crit at some point.

NineThePuma
2011-11-18, 07:18 PM
I'm using Nonsi's math rather than yours, but getting 18-20/x4 is STRICTLY INFERIOR for a very long time. It costs a base 6, while, for similar, you can get a 2d6 weapon that deals on average 140 damage over 20 rounds versus the 70 damage a 1d4 (18-20/x4) weapon does.

{table] slots| max crit| damage scaling

6|70|140(+1.5 slots)
7|98|180(+.5 slots)
8|126|220(+.5)
9|154|220(+1.5)
10|182|260
11|196(+.5)|280[/table]

I'm gonna do some calcs based on the crit stuff being worth (.5) slots instead of (1) and see if that changes things, but it seems like crit scaling is strictly worse at an given point.

NineThePuma
2011-11-18, 07:29 PM
{table] slots| max crit| damage scaling

3|70|110
4|98|130
5|126|140(+.5)
6|154|140(+1.5)
7|182|200
8|196(+.5)|200(+1)
9|196(+1.5)|220(+.5)
10|280|220(+1.5)
11|280(+1)|280[/table].

Altered calcs based on reduced crit modification cost.

I think these speak for themselves.

{table] slots| max crit| damage scaling

3|70|110
4|98|130
5|126|140(+.5)
6|154|160(+.5)
7|182|200
8|196(+.5)|200(+1)
9|224(+.5)|220(+.5)
10|280|240(+.5)
11|280(+1)|280[/table]

I decided to add the Brutal property to the areas that are patchy or otherwise there were enough slots for it. I also have math in front of me taking it up to 13 slots.

Seerow
2011-11-18, 08:10 PM
For the numbers you're running, what are the stats of the character using them? What sort of damage mods are they using, what level?

It looks like you're comparing with a set character their damage per (hit? round?) at each slot value with a max crit weapon and a max damage weapon, but there's still a lot of other variables, unless I missed something major.



Also, I updated the custom armor creation rules. Toned the potential of tower shields down a bit, and reduced customizability of armor and shields by putting minimum armor bonus and a maximum bonus for scaleable armor traits. Also put in more options for the penalties.

Let me know if anything still seems unclear.

NineThePuma
2011-11-18, 08:19 PM
I'm using Nonsi's stuff from... Page 3? And I'm comparing the weapons alone, right now; my original plan was to figure out what the "best" weapon was for each set of slots, but the damage scales so much better than crits that I got sidetracked.

I'm assuming a Str 10 character for all of these calculations. Adding even +1 damage from strength will skew the numbers much better toward max crit; just a rough guestimate, but I'll crunch the numbers.

Edit:
Based on the way I'm crunching numbers, you need at least 12 points of "extra damage" on the original 6 slot for max crit; that is the point where Max Crit starts out damaging maximum damage with a "6 slot" weapon. It's much earlier with my reduced cost

Seerow
2011-11-18, 08:30 PM
Also to be clear, the reason I say it seems like those numbers are off is because it sounds like you're just comparing the base weapon damage with nothing at all, which isn't at all accurate. Just as a quick example:


At 8 slots:
Baseline Crit Weapon (d6 damage, 18-20x4 crit, +4 crit confirms)
Baseline Damage Weapon (4d4, 19-20x2 crit)

No Damage Bonuses at all, 50% average hit chance:

Crit Weapon
1-10: 0 damage
11-17: 3.5 damage
18-20: 10.85 damage (70% 14 damage, 30% 3.5 damage)

Average: 2.8525 damage per round


No Damage Bonuses at all, 50% average hit chance:

Crit Weapon
1-10: 0 damage
11-18: 10 damage
19-20: 15 damage (50% 20 damage, 50% 10 damage)

Average: 5.5 damage per round.



In this case, the base damage is clearly superior. But let's take the same weapons and add a flat +50 damage to both.


Crit Weapon
1-10: 0 damage
11-17: 53.5 damage
18-20: 165.85 damage (70% 214 damage, 30% 53.5 damage)

Average: 43.575


Base Damage Weapon
1-10: 0 damage
11-18: 60 damage
19-20: 90 damage (50% 120 damage, 50% 60 damage)

Average: 33 damage


Now we see the crit weapon clearly pulls ahead, because the flat weapon damage works so much better with it.


edit: Got ninjad

NineThePuma
2011-11-18, 09:53 PM
I edited my post with more math thoughts, but you ninja'd my edit.

Terazul
2011-11-22, 11:08 PM
Heavy Thrown-A thrown weapon with this property allows the wielder to use his strength modifier for attack rolls, rather than damage.

Shouldn't that be "rather than dexterity"? Or do you gain your strength to attack rolls but no longer benefit from it for damage? :smallconfused:

Seerow
2011-11-23, 12:07 AM
Shouldn't that be "rather than dexterity"? Or do you gain your strength to attack rolls but no longer benefit from it for damage? :smallconfused:

You're right, good catch. I'll edit that in.



Also, I'm thinking about breaking up masterwork some. Instead of just 1 masterwork for 2 bonus slots, and special material for an extra, I'm thinking 3 stages of masterwork, priced so they're appropriate for 2nd/4th/6th level characters, giving 1/2/3 slots. Making a special material weapon requires the highest quality masterwork.

This makes it a little bit easier to balance and gives a better gradiant. This is especially useful for the armor where the bonuses make a much bigger difference at low levels. (Having +2 extra AC or +8 resistance or DR/- at level 1 is a huge deal. Having it at level 4-6 not so much)


Edit: Also just realized I lack a defensive property, a la a parrying dagger type deal, that gives you +2 AC when held in the offhand. Does anyone have an argument to not include something along these lines [assume that it will be worded such that it is explicitly nonstacking, likely a shield bonus]

NineThePuma
2011-11-23, 12:14 AM
"You already have something like that"?

*points to the Buckler-Axe's property* (26, IIRC)

Seerow
2011-11-23, 12:47 AM
"You already have something like that"?

*points to the Buckler-Axe's property* (26, IIRC)


Looking at it again, I think I can modify that to fit what I want, but don't like the way it is currently. Like I mentioned I'm thinking parrying dagger, where battle shield is basically a shield that's a part of the weapon. However, I could change battle shield to a more general "defensive" property, up the bonus to +2, while eliminating the ability to masterwork the shield part of it. Then that makes the buckler axe a defensive weapon that has the shield just as a part of the fluff, and you can make a parrying dagger using the same property without having to worry about looking funny having half a shield attached to your dagger.

NineThePuma
2011-11-23, 01:06 AM
Would it be a shield bonus?

Seerow
2011-11-23, 01:09 AM
Would it be a shield bonus?

Yes, still a shield bonus. Just not necessarily a shield by fluff. A small distinction to be sure, but I think it's worth making, because the guy using a regular dagger in his offhand to parry weapons is a real thing that should be representable, even moreso than a lot of these other properties.

NineThePuma
2011-11-23, 01:15 AM
That turns me off of it slightly, then.

Seerow
2011-11-23, 01:21 AM
That turns me off of it slightly, then.

What would you suggest instead?

I'd ideally like it to be something explicitly not stackable (so you don't get defending bootknives, armorspikes, helmspike, gloves, etc). The idea is you hold this in your offhand instead of a shield, it's not quite as good as a fullblown shield since you can't enhance it the same way and lack access to the shield feats, but it has the advantage in being relatively cheap and without the normal shield penalties (mainly ACP).

NineThePuma
2011-11-23, 01:26 AM
If you're not able to enhance the defensive properties, then it's largely useless in the long run. Yes, it's cheap, but I can just as easily pick up a Mythril Heavy Shield for largely the the same benefit. Or, baator, just get a +1 animated heavy shield.

It strikes me more as something that is represented more in a fighting style than a weapon.

Seerow
2011-11-23, 01:35 AM
If you're not able to enhance the defensive properties, then it's largely useless in the long run. Yes, it's cheap, but I can just as easily pick up a Mythril Heavy Shield for largely the the same benefit. Or, baator, just get a +1 animated heavy shield.

It strikes me more as something that is represented more in a fighting style than a weapon.

Well I was figuring it would fit best with two weapon fighting and einhander, both of which get some bonus AC as well. Then again, both of those are also capable of working with shields at the moment.

One problem I have with changing the typing of the bonus is that it would allow the shield user to pick up the property on their shield spike, and suddenly they get both bonuses.



Hrm.. what about this? You can't enchant or masterwork your weapon as a shield, but your enhancement bonus on the weapon does apply to the defending bonus. This makes it a much cheaper option, but a less defensive one (as you only get the AC bonus, and can't get the extra fun magic armor properties or masterwork bonuses). On the other end of things, I'd make it so shield spikes work similarly, but the other way around (ie make your spike into a viable baseline weapon, but can't be masterworked or enchanted as a weapon. Your ehancement bonus to armor becomes the enhancement value of the weapon).

So your choice of shield vs offhand defensive weapon comes down to if you want to be more defense oriented or more offense oriented, and lets you save some money by getting both offensive and defensive benefit out of the enchantment.

NineThePuma
2011-11-23, 01:39 AM
That sounds functional, at least.

Seerow
2011-11-23, 01:53 AM
Updated OP with Defensive Property and Spikes as described above.


Any opinion on the different values of masterwork? And if you think it's a good idea, any ideas on names for the 3 ratings?

NineThePuma
2011-11-23, 01:57 AM
The improving masterwork split sounds good.

There was a "Masterwork but better" that was in a dragon magazine; I think it was Dwarven Craft. Maybe make it a "quality" thing? Mastercraft, could be a filler between the two.

snowboule
2011-11-23, 08:46 AM
About the Talenta Sharrash, if you check out for the errata of the dragonlance books you can find that this weapon does not have the proper stats.

proof here ---> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

Page 120: Weapons Table
The Talenta sharrash should have a critical threat range
of 19–20/x2, not 19–20/x4.

Deepbluediver
2011-11-23, 09:20 AM
Base Weapon Types:
Melee Weapons
Light Weapons-A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand.

One-Handed- A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or ˝ his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. A One-Handed weapon may be used in two hands and gain 1˝ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage.

Two-Handed-Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1˝ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

I've never understood the effective strength-penalty (1/2 instead of 1 for rolling damage) to offhand weapons. I can see the attack-roll penalty, because most people favor either one hand or the other, and are less accurate when using their off-hand, but both of your arms are equally strong (unless you are a professional arm-wrestler or something).

For simplicities sake, will it break anything to badly if we just apply our normal strength bonus to any attack made 1-handed, and twice our strength bonus to any attack made 2-handed?

Maybe save the 1-and-a-half rule for special situations, like using a 1-handed weapon in both hands.


P.S. I love the slot rule for weapon modification.

Cieyrin
2011-11-23, 10:00 AM
About the Talenta Sharrash, if you check out for the errata of the dragonlance books you can find that this weapon does not have the proper stats.

proof here ---> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

Page 120: Weapons Table
The Talenta sharrash should have a critical threat range
of 19–20/x2, not 19–20/x4.

I know. When I designed it, it was based off the original, because tricked out scythes without a x4 crit modifier are just wrong. Also note the weapon is Masterwork only. If you want to have the errata'd version, the cost of dropping the x4 to x2 would probably drop it back to being non-Masterwork. Not sure how it's currently working with Masterwork being shifted into a more modular model but that's how it was. It's also from Eberron, not Dragonlance. Dragonlance is the purveyer of kender weaponry, strange as they are.

As for the battle shield to defensive property conversion, I suppose it looks alright. Less of a hassle and you don't have to deal with the buckler situation where if you use it to attack with the weapon, you lose the AC bonus, not to mention the minor issue that it can't be fully enchanted on both sides pre-epic, since it'd hit the pre-epic cost cap. Good job sidestepping the Defending issue, too. I make the Defending bonus a Competence bonus precisely because of that problem whenever I run games (as infrequent as that is :smalltongue:).

snowboule
2011-11-23, 10:55 AM
True my mistake haha for dragonlance, and true it seemed weird to me the errata at the time anyway:smallsmile:

NineThePuma
2011-11-23, 11:06 AM
Spent some time screwing around building a weapon; ended up with an Exotic Light that has Concealable, Non-threatening, Sudden Draw, Deadly2 and an 18-20/x2 threat range. It's not amazing, but it's pretty damn amusing to imagine. It was inspired by the Hidden Blade from AC, and I just wish there were more ways to Flat Foot people against an attack so I could pull off ridiculous Iaijutsu Spamming. Oh well.

Cieyrin
2011-11-23, 12:18 PM
Spent some time screwing around building a weapon; ended up with an Exotic Light that has Concealable, Non-threatening, Sudden Draw, Deadly2 and an 18-20/x2 threat range. It's not amazing, but it's pretty damn amusing to imagine. It was inspired by the Hidden Blade from AC, and I just wish there were more ways to Flat Foot people against an attack so I could pull off ridiculous Iaijutsu Spamming. Oh well.

Bags of Marbles?

Dr.Orpheus
2011-11-23, 07:16 PM
Something D&D forgot is the power of an arrow. The range needs to be decreased slightly (which I see you have done except crossbows should have even less range, but should be easier to hit with) and the damage needs to be increased for both bows and crossbows. Historically speaking during the 100 year war France lost all battles for the first portion because they were always out of range with there crossbows, and the English aiming there bow's to fire in a high arc could get a 2.5-3 ft. arrow to come down on there head and go strait through the brain and the neck so that only a inch of arrow was left left sticking out the top of the helmet. Arrows and bolts kill people more effectively because they are fast moving and piercing, lances when mounted can inflict terrible wounds because of the horses speed firing a bow releases a far faster projectile which is harder to block, and can leave deeper wounds because it has a smaller tip and can thus focus its energy into a smaller space. This will outweigh the fact you will not have the weight of a horse behind your blow. Piercing weapons have the deepest wounds, and depth maters most for determining whether a wound will reach through the fat, muscle, and bone to get to the organs which is where you deal the most damage. Over all though you did a great job reworking the other weapons.

Seerow
2011-11-23, 11:12 PM
Honestly, Bows and Crossbows are strong enough as is now. They are roughly on par with an equivalent melee weapon, but usable from range. They lose out slightly from needing to spend a slot for +str to damage, but they gain that back and then some with the ability to use masterwork arrows, which gives them 2-3 more slots than the equivalent melee weapon.

If you still think archery is too weak, try checking out the weapon styles in my sig. They replace most of the archery feats, and give Archery dexterity to damage, ranged control ability, and the ability to use power attack with a favorable return, easily making them on par with the equivalent melee styles.



If what you want is arrows that kill people instantly, far more efficiently than melee from 50-100ft away, I'm just going to say no to that. My goal here is not realism (though that does factor in some) as much as balance. Using your logic for arrows doing more damage, rapiers should also do far more damage. Their ability to pierce and hit critical targets more frequently is represented in their critical damage increase, or crit chance increase.

Cieyrin
2011-11-24, 12:09 AM
If what you want is arrows that kill people instantly, far more efficiently than melee from 50-100ft away, I'm just going to say no to that. My goal here is not realism (though that does factor in some) as much as balance. Using your logic for arrows doing more damage, rapiers should also do far more damage. Their ability to pierce and hit critical targets more frequently is represented in their critical damage increase, or crit chance increase.

Which bows do anyways, what with the x3 crit mod. So I think we're good, don't you think? :smallsmile:

Dr.Orpheus
2011-11-24, 02:46 AM
Honestly, Bows and Crossbows are strong enough as is now. They are roughly on par with an equivalent melee weapon, but usable from range. They lose out slightly from needing to spend a slot for +str to damage, but they gain that back and then some with the ability to use masterwork arrows, which gives them 2-3 more slots than the equivalent melee weapon.

If you still think archery is too weak, try checking out the weapon styles in my sig. They replace most of the archery feats, and give Archery dexterity to damage, ranged control ability, and the ability to use power attack with a favorable return, easily making them on par with the equivalent melee styles.

If what you want is arrows that kill people instantly, far more efficiently than melee from 50-100ft away, I'm just going to say no to that. My goal here is not realism (though that does factor in some) as much as balance. Using your logic for arrows doing more damage, rapiers should also do far more damage. Their ability to pierce and hit critical targets more frequently is represented in their critical damage increase, or crit chance increase.
I tend to think all weapons are weak and adding to the rapier may be a good idea seeing that the nature of their flexible blade is not taken in to account, but you are right to change these for balance sake rather than realism because a game will never be truly realistic and still be a game. It instead would be fighting with actual weapons. However you could make a more realistic game (see above, maybe increasing the treat range instead of the damage, and maybe increasing the penalty for firing multiple range increments which I should have mentioned), but do so in a way that is still realistic.

Which bows do anyways, what with the x3 crit mod. So I think we're good, don't you think? :smallsmile:
If you value the multiplier more than the threat range you could get a scythe (the threat range is a bit better though statistically speaking so I would get a Geatsword or Greatclub) .5 higher average damage, and x4 crit. It has no range, but you don't provoke AoO's from melee combatants, add str to damage , and need no ammo it is the same . So let's just say the bow is not the best, which it does not have to be.

flabort
2011-12-06, 02:58 PM
Not quite a month, I think, so I don't think I'm necroing (I hope not), but I do have a genuine question.

Someone in This thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12328424#post12328424), which is about dual wielding two 2H weapons because you have 4 hands, brought up wielding a weapon with more than two hands. The ridiculous damage brought about by wielding a weapon that way (by that way, I mean with 32 hands) was discussed.

But someone mentioned, to wield a weapon like that, it needs to be specifically build for it. So, say you wanted a 3H weapon. Would I just use the 2H weapon points (4, 5, or 8), or would I have more points (5, 6, or 9, perhaps)?

So say I had 4 hands, and had a simple light weapon; lets say I used the two slots on tripping and increasing the damage dice. I use this as my off hand weapon. I also have a massive 3H weapon, lets say it were martial (but due to having fighter levels could use it). IF this let me take more slots, say it gave me 6, would I be able to have it do 2d4 damage, take brutal, and knockback?

Seerow
2011-12-06, 03:04 PM
IF this let me take more slots, say it gave me 6, would I be able to have it do 2d4 damage, take brutal, and knockback?

Given that IF then:

2d4 = 2.5 slots
Brutal = 1 slot
Knockback = .5 slots

So yes, you could get all of that for 4 slots, you'd be able to get it even with a simple two handed weapon, no extra slots needed.




As for bonus slots for requiring more hands, I'd personally say no. Just give it standard two handed stats.

flabort
2011-12-06, 03:09 PM
Whoop, I typed 2d4, meant 2d6.

But, simple two handed stats. OK.

...:smalltongue: Not even for a couple extra hundred gold? Perhaps a few candies your way? :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:
But I see. But including a clause saying "A weapon designed for more than two hands still only uses two handed weapon stats" on the OP... may or may not be a good idea, your choice.

Seerow
2011-12-06, 03:16 PM
Whoop, I typed 2d4, meant 2d6.

But, simple two handed stats. OK.

...:smalltongue: Not even for a couple extra hundred gold? Perhaps a few candies your way? :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:
But I see. But including a clause saying "A weapon designed for more than two hands still only uses two handed weapon stats" on the OP... may or may not be a good idea, your choice.


2d6 would bring that up from 4 slots to 6 slots, so yes would be doable with your 3 handed martial weapon assuming the DM let you have a bonus slot for multihanded weapons.

The problem I have with letting people get hugely better stuff for more-handed weapons is there's all sorts of extra hand cheese out there, and then you end up with someone crying about how my system let their player make a 50 slot weapon for their 40 armed freak player. It's better to just stick to the normal rules for multi-handed weapons (that is, use regular weapons, get your multi armed benefits from wielding more of them). Though I do seem to remember a rule (can't remember if it was optional, homebrew, or real) that let a character get an extra .5 str multiplier for each extra hand on the weapon. That might be up your alley.

Of course, this is all homebrew, and it is a tabletop RPG, if your DM (or you if you're the DM) thinks it's acceptable for a really big weapon specially designed to be used with more than 2 arms, and gets benefits out of doing so, that's within his power, just not something I would personally get behind.

flabort
2011-12-06, 03:24 PM
Maybe, if you DID allow extra slots, you could remove the rule, and add an extra upgrade just for weapons for 3 or more hands to reinstate adding 1/2 damage for an extra hand.

...maybe. That way, if you spend your slots on that, it would be like wielding a normal 2H weapon with X hands, but you can trade out the extra multiplier for something else?

BTW, from the linked thread, someone said that rule was from Savage Species. Same place that says the weapon has to be specifically built to accommodate those extra hands.

Cieyrin
2011-12-07, 02:11 PM
BTW, from the linked thread, someone said that rule was from Savage Species. Same place that says the weapon has to be specifically built to accommodate those extra hands.

Yep, it is. The justification is there normally isn't enough weapon to grip to bring the leverage there. How that works with hafted weapons, I have no idea.

Seerow
2011-12-07, 03:34 PM
Yep, it is. The justification is there normally isn't enough weapon to grip to bring the leverage there. How that works with hafted weapons, I have no idea.

Honestly I have trouble imagining how more than 4 hands can be used on a single weapon, even with a longer hilt. Eventually the swing motion of the arms is going to be too far apart so it won't work. Even 4 is pretty hard, but I can imagine it as doable.



Anyway I think I am going to take some time and, update the masterworking rules, and probably put in some crafting/purchasing rules to go along with it. For the quality tiers I'm thinking:

-Common
-Exceptional (~300 GP cost)
-Superior (~1800 GP cost)
-Master (~4300 GP cost)

Which makes it cost ~1/3 of WBL for 2/4/6 respectively. Until I get around to doing an actual magic item overhaul, Exceptional Quality becomes free with a +1-3 weapon/armor, Superior becomes free with a +4-6 weapon/armor, and Master becomes free with a +7 or higher weapon/armor.

For crafting DCs I'm thinking DC 10 for any simple weapon, DC 15 for Martial, DC 20 for Exotic. Add +5 DC for Exceptional, Superior, and Master. So a Master Exotic Weapon requires a DC35 craft (aka requires a pretty good crafter), while a common simple weapon can be made by anyone with a little downtime with little to no training.


Then for base weapon costs, I'm thinking standardize it as:

Simple Light - 5sp
Simple One-Hand- 1gp
Simple Two-Hand- 2gp

Martial Light- 2gp
Martial One-Hand- 4gp
Martial Two-Hand- 8gp

Exotic Light-8gp
Exotic One-Hand-16gp
Exotic Two-Hand-32gp

With the extra note that crafting an exotic weapon takes the same materials as a martial weapon, the extra cost there comes from the extra work for the crafter (much the same way that masterwork does). So an Exotic Light Weapon would cost as much to craft as a Martial Light Weapon (so 30% of 2gp, or 6sp).





Anyone have any thoughts on this? Anything that needs to be changed before formalizing it and updating the OP?

NineThePuma
2011-12-07, 04:01 PM
How would someone go about making a DC 35 craft check?

Wouldn't it be easier to do it the same way it's done normally, with a separate "masterwork" craft check?

Cieyrin
2011-12-07, 07:14 PM
How would someone go about making a DC 35 craft check?

Wouldn't it be easier to do it the same way it's done normally, with a separate "masterwork" craft check?

There are magic forges in Races of Stone that give +20 to Craft(Weaponsmithing) and (Armorsmithing), respectively, if you just want to throw gold at it. A dedicated Weaponsmith that didn't bother with said forge would probably be a Dwarf Expert with a high Int, Skill Focus, masterwork tools and lower level assistants to Aid the check. At 1st level on an Elite array, metal or stone weaponry on such a crafter would have a bonus of +13, +11 for wooden or other non-metal/stone weaponry. By 4th level, the bonus has risen to +17 by himself, +21 with 2 1st level assistants. With a bit more investment, you can see its not difficult to achieve such results, its just a matter of properly kitting out the hirelings. What did you think Leadership was for? It wasn't for making armies or a second character. :smallwink:

Hanuman
2011-12-07, 11:11 PM
I do like the swordchucks as I'm a trained user IRL, but I didn't see dueling shields on the list, which IMO are a much more impressive and badass weapon. Swordchucks have a novelty though.

Seerow
2011-12-08, 12:15 AM
There are magic forges in Races of Stone that give +20 to Craft(Weaponsmithing) and (Armorsmithing), respectively, if you just want to throw gold at it. A dedicated Weaponsmith that didn't bother with said forge would probably be a Dwarf Expert with a high Int, Skill Focus, masterwork tools and lower level assistants to Aid the check. At 1st level on an Elite array, metal or stone weaponry on such a crafter would have a bonus of +13, +11 for wooden or other non-metal/stone weaponry. By 4th level, the bonus has risen to +17 by himself, +21 with 2 1st level assistants. With a bit more investment, you can see its not difficult to achieve such results, its just a matter of properly kitting out the hirelings. What did you think Leadership was for? It wasn't for making armies or a second character. :smallwink:

Pretty much this. But I was also thinking including a DC shift that could be taken to increase/decrease the base time. So if base time to make a item is 1 week, you could double it to 2 weeks for a -5 to the DC, and double it again to a month for -10 to the DC. Then the other way around, you could make it in a few days for +5, and in a single day for +10. A DC25 is low enough that an above average or merely high level crafter can make the best weapons in the game, but at the expense of taking longer. Meanwhile a legendary crafter could churn out one of these daily, making a fair bit of profit for themselves.




I do like the swordchucks as I'm a trained user IRL, but I didn't see dueling shields on the list, which IMO are a much more impressive and badass weapon. Swordchucks have a novelty though.


Swordchucks were added in for fun more or less. But what exactly is the difference between a regular shield and a dueling shield? If you can answer that I'll see what I can do.

Hanuman
2011-12-08, 06:18 AM
Swordchucks were added in for fun more or less. But what exactly is the difference between a regular shield and a dueling shield? If you can answer that I'll see what I can do.
Yeah, gyrespikes (the dnd sword-mace) are much more efficient, you can only really use the angled head while the swung head's blade cannot be angled, so having a weapon that doesn't require an angle works fine. The two about swordchucks is that theres much lighter, more compactable and more efficient weapons that are similar (not gyrespike) in real life, the second thing is that DnD is a world of magic, and when you start altering physics you open up a huge array of viable tools for injury that use mechanics both physical and magical. Even something minor like being able to angle the swung weight with the held sword's blade would make it viable, let alone a character with at least DR1 being so much less viable to injury in a combat scenario.


Dueling shields are 2 handed shields with weaponized tips, they are lemon shaped with 4 catches on them that can catch other weapons or dueling shields. It is a pretty old practice but there should be some references somewhere.

Cieyrin
2011-12-08, 11:12 AM
Yeah, gyrespikes (the dnd sword-mace) are much more efficient, you can only really use the angled head while the swung head's blade cannot be angled, so having a weapon that doesn't require an angle works fine. The two about swordchucks is that theres much lighter, more compactable and more efficient weapons that are similar (not gyrespike) in real life, the second thing is that DnD is a world of magic, and when you start altering physics you open up a huge array of viable tools for injury that use mechanics both physical and magical. Even something minor like being able to angle the swung weight with the held sword's blade would make it viable, let alone a character with at least DR1 being so much less viable to injury in a combat scenario.

Wait, gyrspikes are real? Like, real people used the crazy things without braining themselves or someone else that isn't their target?!? I...I need to sit down...:smalleek:

Spiryt
2011-12-08, 11:31 AM
I think he may refer to something like that:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y277/TheyCallMePavz/TalhofferManual.jpg

or many other funky spiky dueling swords depicted in Talhoffer's Fechtbuchs for example.

Gyrspike as depicted in D&D is probably too crazy even for dueling use, and I've never seen anything even remotely like that. Kusarigama is probably closest.

And dueling shield is something like that:

http://mikemonaco.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/hackenschilden-twohanded.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/De_Fechtbuch_Talhoffer_109.jpg/400px-De_Fechtbuch_Talhoffer_109.jpg

Seerow
2011-12-08, 11:35 AM
So a dueling shield is basically a spiked tower shield used as a two handed weapon. I can swing that.

Still not quite clear on the gyrespike, that picture doesn't look too different to a normal bladed weapon to me.


Edit: Added tower shield spike as a two-handed martial weapon, with 2d6 damage and the knockback property. So someone can have a tower shield + weapon, or just two hand a tower shield after spending the armor slot on spikes. As per the normal spikes rules, the weapon part can't be masterworked or enchanted, but gains an automatic enhancement bonus to hit and damage equal to any enhancement bonus to the Shield AC.

Cieyrin
2011-12-08, 12:23 PM
Edit: Added tower shield spike as a two-handed martial weapon, with 2d6 damage and the knockback property. So someone can have a tower shield + weapon, or just two hand a tower shield after spending the armor slot on spikes. As per the normal spikes rules, the weapon part can't be masterworked or enchanted, but gains an automatic enhancement bonus to hit and damage equal to any enhancement bonus to the Shield AC.

Confused me when looking for it to see it in SRD weapons, considering you can't normally use it in a shield bash by Core rules. Shouldn't it be in New Weapons?

Incidentally, when I was looking around for it and checking the special ability numbers, Ramhammers have Arc instead of Knockback.

Seerow
2011-12-08, 01:00 PM
Confused me when looking for it to see it in SRD weapons, considering you can't normally use it in a shield bash by Core rules. Shouldn't it be in New Weapons?

Good point, but I figured all shield spikes are in the core rules. The restriction on tower shield not being able to bash wasn't carried over in my tower shield write up, so I didn't think of it as something new.


Incidentally, when I was looking around for it and checking the special ability numbers, Ramhammers have Arc instead of Knockback.

I'll fix that in a second.




Also I just put up the different weapon qualities, and costs/crafting rules.

LordErebus12
2011-12-08, 01:49 PM
Seerow, your a genius for this. (so are those who helped :smallwink:)
im gonna use section 4 from now on.

Partysan
2011-12-08, 08:44 PM
I'd pick a dueling shield more as a tripping weapon actually. They have hooks well suited (and intended) to pull an opponent to the ground. Seems more fitting than knockback.
If you want to fiind out more about that there was a documentation that showed a short fight with them, I'll have to look for that though.

EDIT: It was Weapons that made Britain. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7dsFIlPj8&feature=channel_video_title#t=1m41s)

Hanuman
2011-12-08, 09:42 PM
Wait, gyrspikes are real? Like, real people used the crazy things without braining themselves or someone else that isn't their target?!? I...I need to sit down...:smalleek:
It's just a hybridized weapon, you need to learn the physics and training of other weapons over a few thousand hours before it really clears up.
I was a professional fire performer for 3 years, I developed swordchucks as a fire prop as they don't need to hit with a blade and the wicks are cylindrical. Problem was I don't have enough to fund the project properly right now, so it's suspended in beta stage right now without a model that doesn't melt your hands off (optimum form turned out to be too hot, hotter than any existing firetool and requires aluminized kevlar protective gloves, similar to steel-mill protection).

As for Gyrspike*, here's an image (5th from left):
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/row_gallery/86659.jpg
There's a more detailed picture on Arms and Equipment Guide pg. 9 or in Sword and Fist pg. 72.

It's a sword that has a flail in place of a tassel.

Gyrspikes themselves aren't an established weapon, but most of their physics are established in weapons such as nunchaku, double meteor hammer, ect.

If you have any more questions feel free to shoot.


I'd pick a dueling shield more as a tripping weapon actually. They have hooks well suited (and intended) to pull an opponent to the ground. Seems more fitting than knockback.
Agreed wholeheartedly.

TuggyNE
2011-12-15, 11:16 PM
I discovered this thread a few days ago, and it took me some time to sort through it all (:smallwink:), but I did have an idea to make the weapon property footnotes a bit more manageable by grouping them into categories.

As it stands, it took me an hour or two to make it through the list, flipping back and forth between the properties list and the weapons list just to get some idea of what a weapon did in the system.

Here's a preliminary attempt:
{table=head]#|Original Name|Abbrev|Group|New Name
5|Monk Weapon|C1|class|Monk Weapon
25|Battle Instrument|C2|class|Battle Instrument
7|Brutal|E1|enhanced|Brutal
8|Deadly|E2|enhanced|Deadly
26|Defensive|E3|enhanced|Defensive
27|Opportunist|E4|enhanced|Opportunist
4|Double Weapon|G1|general|Double Weapon
6|Non-Lethal|G2|general|Non-Lethal
9|Tripping|G3|general|Tripping
16|Finessible|G4|general|Finessible
30|Knockback|G5|general|Knockback
29|Sudden Draw|G6|general|Sudden Draw
10|+2 Disarm|M1|maneuver|+2 Disarm
11|+2 Bull Rush|M2|maneuver|+2 Bull Rush
12|+2 Disarm|M3|maneuver|+2 Disarm
13|+2 Trip|M4|maneuver|+2 Trip
28|+2 Feint|M5|maneuver|+2 Feint
15|Riding Bow|P1|projectile|Riding
17|Hand Crossbow|P2|projectile|One-handed
18|Repeating Crossbow|P3|projectile|Repeating
19|Mighty|P4|projectile|Mighty
21|Bow|P5|projectile|Bow
22|Crossbow|P6|projectile|Crossbow
23|Easy Loading Crossbow|P7|projectile|Quick-Loading
3|Reach|R1|reach|Reach
2|Settable|R2|reach|Settable
14|Charger|R3|reach|Charger
1|Concealable|S1|stealth|Concealable
24|Non-Threatening|S2|stealth|Non-Threatening
32|Return|T1|thrown|Return
20|Heavy Thrown|T2|thrown|Heavy Thrown
33|Ricochet|T3|thrown|Ricochet
31|Arc|T4|thrown|Arc[/table]

Cieyrin
2011-12-15, 11:30 PM
Arc's a thrown property, since you're arcing your shot around that wall to smack somebody in the head. So it should be thrown, not reach.

Seerow
2011-12-15, 11:31 PM
That's actually a really good idea Tuggyne, the large number of possible abbilities and how that looks on the table has been bothering me, and that method of formatting does seem better. I'll have some free time tomorrow so I'll look over it then for anything I want to change, and update the OP accordingly.


Arc's a thrown property, since you're arcing your shot around that wall to smack somebody in the head. So it should be thrown, not reach.

That's odd, I thought Arc was a projectile ability. Then again, the only thing that uses it is the Annulat, and I have no idea what that actually is (one of the weapons you put up) so I'll defer to you on that one.

TuggyNE
2011-12-16, 12:54 AM
Arc's a thrown property, since you're arcing your shot around that wall to smack somebody in the head. So it should be thrown, not reach.

Heh. I was positive it belonged to a reach weapon. Oh well! Guess I misread at least one entry... :smallamused:

Cieyrin
2011-12-16, 10:52 AM
That's odd, I thought Arc was a projectile ability. Then again, the only thing that uses it is the Annulat, and I have no idea what that actually is (one of the weapons you put up) so I'll defer to you on that one.

An annulat is a chakram-like weapon invented by the Neraphim, which they use to hunt Chaos Beasts on Limbo. It's in the Planar Handbook, which has a lot of interesting weapons, especially in that they're not all exotic weapons, either.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ex_Cado_Doomlord.jpg

Hanuman
2011-12-17, 02:54 PM
D2 sins grant the idea of weaponized boots, making boots deal damage like a shield would, thoughts?

Deepbluediver
2011-12-17, 06:15 PM
@Seerow

This system works great for all the mundane stats, but have you given any thought to working magical weapon-modifiers into it as well?
What I mean is, if you wanted a weapon with the "Shocking Burst" or "Vorpal" quality, or any of the other standard modifications, how many slots can we have things like that take up? If it even possible to work out what it might cost or would you want to put it on an entirely different set-up altogether?

The original rules say that these kind of weapons have to be at least Masterwork, but you've added in several other levels of craftmanship, so maybe say they just need to be Superior (or whatever the one-step above normal is).

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I only skimmed pages 3-5 of the thread, so I could have missed things.

Seerow
2011-12-18, 12:23 AM
Okay, first I lied. I didn't get the changes up yesterday when I said I would, and today was my actual day for playing D&D, so am just now getting on. So tomorrow, hopefully.


D2 sins grant the idea of weaponized boots, making boots deal damage like a shield would, thoughts?


Not sure about D2, but I do know in one book or another there are boot blades, which I'd stat as a dagger, just usable in a weird slot. If you mean just regular boots, like cleats or something, then I'd just treat it as an unarmed strike or spiked gauntlets.


@Seerow

This system works great for all the mundane stats, but have you given any thought to working magical weapon-modifiers into it as well?
What I mean is, if you wanted a weapon with the "Shocking Burst" or "Vorpal" quality, or any of the other standard modifications, how many slots can we have things like that take up? If it even possible to work out what it might cost or would you want to put it on an entirely different set-up altogether?

The original rules say that these kind of weapons have to be at least Masterwork, but you've added in several other levels of craftmanship, so maybe say they just need to be Superior (or whatever the one-step above normal is).

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I only skimmed pages 3-5 of the thread, so I could have missed things.

This is what I was originally trying to do with special materials, but abandoned it for the time being due to being really unbalanced in general. I just don't see any balanced way to integrate it with the mundane item slots. Even a simple +xd6 elemental damage enhancement would have to be 2-3 slots to be balanced against the other stuff. I'm also uneasy about some of the previously magic armor enhancements that became mundane, but a lot of those were pretty overpriced to begin with so probably not too big of a deal.

Cieyrin
2011-12-18, 12:28 PM
Not sure about D2, but I do know in one book or another there are boot blades, which I'd stat as a dagger, just usable in a weird slot. If you mean just regular boots, like cleats or something, then I'd just treat it as an unarmed strike or spiked gauntlets.

They're all in Complete Scoundrel's Hidden Blades, from Boot Blades to Elbow Blades and Bayonets.

Seerow
2011-12-18, 08:38 PM
Okay, updated the identification scheme for weapon properties as suggested up-thread, separating the properties into categories. I also updated the weapon property descriptions accordingly, using the same categories. I did change settable to general, because a lot of the weapons with it don't have reach. I made the monk special weapon an enhancement type, and made B/C/T for Bow/Crossbow/Thrown (T1 is Throwing, which is the short range throwing property for melee weapons), and probably a few other changes I'm forgetting. Hopefully that makes it a bit easier to read the charts.

Hanuman
2011-12-19, 11:43 AM
I meant more along the lines of using actual armor as weapon, shields have a shield bash, boots without weapons (such as boots or greaves) could be used in the same manner as kamas to augment unarmed strike rather than being a dagger.

Seerow
2011-12-19, 01:27 PM
I meant more along the lines of using actual armor as weapon, shields have a shield bash, boots without weapons (such as boots or greaves) could be used in the same manner as kamas to augment unarmed strike rather than being a dagger.

This would be basically an unarmed strike, much the same that a guy in full plate without armor spikes/spiked gauntlets still only does regular unarmed strike damage. If you want more than that, the rules for making custom weapons are there.


Edit: Updated again. The settable property became chargebreaker, with a change in how the mechanic works to make it more generally useful. Also added the new property staggering, which allows a character to make a bull rush or overrun attempt on a crit. Both of these are courtesy of the min-max boards.

Deepbluediver
2011-12-27, 09:01 PM
This is what I was originally trying to do with special materials, but abandoned it for the time being due to being really unbalanced in general. I just don't see any balanced way to integrate it with the mundane item slots. Even a simple +xd6 elemental damage enhancement would have to be 2-3 slots to be balanced against the other stuff. I'm also uneasy about some of the previously magic armor enhancements that became mundane, but a lot of those were pretty overpriced to begin with so probably not too big of a deal.

I've been turning this issue over in my mind, and I have a suggestion of sorts. (now that I have a few days off I actually have time to write this stuff up)
I admit that working magic weapon effects into your existing slot system would probably be tough, but if you want to attach it to special materials somehow, I've come up with an alternative.

If you want to add a special property to a weapon, it's required that it be better than normal, and sometimes even made of rare materials.
To add any property to a weapon that would incur a +1 Base Price Modifier such as Frost or Keen the weapon can be made of regular steel, but must be of at least Exceptional quality. Better quality swords and rarer metals can also have these qualities, this is just the minimum.
For any property that would add a +2 Base Price Modifier, such as Flaming Burst or Holy, the weapon must be of at least superior quality and must be made of either Mithril, Cold Iron, or a Silvered metal.
For any property that would add a +3 or +4 Base Price Modifier, such as Speed, the weapon must be of at least Masterwork quality and must be made of Adamantine.

I'm not sure what other materials regularly get made into swords, and what kind of thing we would need for a +5 BPM, such as for the Vorpal effect, but that's the basic premise.
Just for reference, I'm working based off the chart found at dandwiki.com (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Magic_Weapons#Table:_Melee_Weapon_Special_Abil ities).

Cieyrin
2011-12-29, 02:51 PM
I've been turning this issue over in my mind, and I have a suggestion of sorts. (now that I have a few days off I actually have time to write this stuff up)
I admit that working magic weapon effects into your existing slot system would probably be tough, but if you want to attach it to special materials somehow, I've come up with an alternative.

If you want to add a special property to a weapon, it's required that it be better than normal, and sometimes even made of rare materials.
To add any property to a weapon that would incur a +1 Base Price Modifier such as Frost or Keen the weapon can be made of regular steel, but must be of at least Exceptional quality. Better quality swords and rarer metals can also have these qualities, this is just the minimum.
For any property that would add a +2 Base Price Modifier, such as Flaming Burst or Holy, the weapon must be of at least superior quality and must be made of either Mithril, Cold Iron, or a Silvered metal.
For any property that would add a +3 or +4 Base Price Modifier, such as Speed, the weapon must be of at least Masterwork quality and must be made of Adamantine.

I'm not sure what other materials regularly get made into swords, and what kind of thing we would need for a +5 BPM, such as for the Vorpal effect, but that's the basic premise.
Just for reference, I'm working based off the chart found at dandwiki.com (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Magic_Weapons#Table:_Melee_Weapon_Special_Abil ities).

That seems more a nerf on non-spellcasters than anything else, as you're making it more expensive for them to get weapons that keep them able to do their jobs. It also skews weapons towards being more just enhancement bonuses than specials, which may not be a bad thing, since I don't think I've seen weapons with a higher than +1 bonus except in niche cases in a good long time or outside PF, which grabbed the nifty Monte Cook Enhancement Table, which lets higher bonuses break through more DR types.

Deepbluediver
2012-01-04, 10:35 AM
That seems more a nerf on non-spellcasters than anything else, as you're making it more expensive for them to get weapons that keep them able to do their jobs. It also skews weapons towards being more just enhancement bonuses than specials, which may not be a bad thing, since I don't think I've seen weapons with a higher than +1 bonus except in niche cases in a good long time or outside PF, which grabbed the nifty Monte Cook Enhancement Table, which lets higher bonuses break through more DR types.

Sorry if I wasn't clear; what I had intended was that any enhancement that could be placed on a lower level of weapon could also be included on one made with better materials, so you could get a Keen mithril shortsword if you wanted.

My suggestion was more for flavor than power balance. I think the cost of a weapon made with special materials is relatively minor compared to the cost of getting the enchantment/effect on it in the first place.
With the system for improving weapons given as it I was hoping you wouldn't need weapons with enhancement bonuses, so you could focus on the more interesting effects.

Seerow
2012-01-10, 09:43 PM
No offense, but I'm not sure I like the idea of that special material scheme. It seems to discourage variety or option in material choices, and encourage always having the best material you can afford. I'd much rather have all materials be affordable around mid lower levels (6-10), but offer varied relatively interesting effects. Having it so every weapon must be made of adamantine to get the best enchantments just seems like it kills a lot of potential variety in the game.






Anyway, new update time. Still no magic item or special materials. Yes I suck and am slow etc etc. Instead, I made a new armor update. Armor no longer has an inherent movement speed penalty. Now, movement speed penalties are dependent entirely on encumbrance. If you can wear your armor without encumbrance, you move at full speed. Of course to make this work, I added rules for armor weight, and rules for modifying that weight up and down. I also tweaked a few other things in that section, and modified a couple of the default armors. (If someone wanted to try to redo the base armors entirely to try to match up closer with the SRD using the new rules, I'd appreciate that a lot. I've been mostly doing little patches here and there.)

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-11, 07:26 AM
I must say, this is very in depth and well thought out, and works pretty well. Having read the whole thread, I would like to make a small suggestion for magic items (you may of course disregard this if you don't like it).

Enchanting an item means giving it a bonus. In order to enchant an item, you have to first give it a bonus equal to the value of the enchantment. You want a vorpal longsword? Gotta nab that +5 first, then. This has seen a little testing in my games, and it works fairly well. In terms of your system, each +1 magical enhancement to the weapon would grant an enchantment slot, so you could enchant it to +2 to get the benefits of that, plus give you two slots specifically for magical effects that you could enchant later.

Also, you might want to increase how high some of your tables go, since you have a class that gives you up to 6 extra slots using this system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228049) already in the works. That class would let you get as high as 19 slots on an exotic weapon, if you have both weapon focus feats.

Hope this helps some. Keep it up, it looks good. :smallsmile:

Deepbluediver
2012-01-11, 08:54 AM
Enchanting an item means giving it a bonus. In order to enchant an item, you have to first give it a bonus equal to the value of the enchantment. You want a vorpal longsword? Gotta nab that +5 first, then. This has seen a little testing in my games, and it works fairly well. In terms of your system, each +1 magical enhancement to the weapon would grant an enchantment slot, so you could enchant it to +2 to get the benefits of that, plus give you two slots specifically for magical effects that you could enchant later.


Yeah, I like this better than my suggestion.

But I can never leave anything alone, so here's a quick little idea for special materials: let them come with +bonuses and enchanting slots that aren't otherwise factored into the limit. For example, any mithril sword comes with a +1 bonus and 1 enchanting slot. By paying for a full +5 bonus you could give it the equivalent of 6 slots. Just a thought I had.

Seerow
2012-01-11, 10:36 AM
I must say, this is very in depth and well thought out, and works pretty well. Having read the whole thread, I would like to make a small suggestion for magic items (you may of course disregard this if you don't like it).

Enchanting an item means giving it a bonus. In order to enchant an item, you have to first give it a bonus equal to the value of the enchantment. You want a vorpal longsword? Gotta nab that +5 first, then. This has seen a little testing in my games, and it works fairly well. In terms of your system, each +1 magical enhancement to the weapon would grant an enchantment slot, so you could enchant it to +2 to get the benefits of that, plus give you two slots specifically for magical effects that you could enchant later.


That would potentially work. The main problem is if/when I do get around to redoing special materials and magic items, my goal is to remove the need for magic items. I would be getting rid of +x swords entirely, and would be adding a lot of bonuses to inherent character progression. Ideally I'd like to remove the need for wealth by level past level 8-10 or so (which is about the point where special materials and minor magic items like potions would be common enough you no longer have to freak out about your players looting an adamantine door). So while your suggestion is good, it goes against my vision of magic items.


Also, you might want to increase how high some of your tables go, since you have a class that gives you up to 6 extra slots using this system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228049) already in the works. That class would let you get as high as 19 slots on an exotic weapon, if you have both weapon focus feats.

Hope this helps some. Keep it up, it looks good. :smallsmile:

Heh I hadn't seen that. As far as I can tell, the bonus slots are for improvised weapons though, so I don't think 19 slots is possible. But I can extend the tables a bit, it's not that big of a deal. Which tables would need to be expanded, just the damage scaling table? Edit: The damage scaling table now proceeds as high as 23 slots. The next step would be 23.5, and then 31.5, so I'm personally leaning towards that's as high as it really needs to go.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-11, 11:40 AM
The "improvised" weapons are standard weapons made on the fly from junk, so yes, this class could indeed make a scythe using that ability that had the extra 6 slots to devote to damage. But yeah, 23 should be plenty, even I can't figure out a way to tweak it past 21 available slots.

As for your vision on magic items...I honestly don't see a way to make that work. Sorry I couldn't help more. :smallredface: I'm quite interested in how you figure out how to do it, so I'll be watching for your solution. Good luck! :smallsmile:

Seerow
2012-01-11, 11:51 AM
As for your vision on magic items...I honestly don't see a way to make that work. Sorry I couldn't help more. :smallredface: I'm quite interested in how you figure out how to do it, so I'll be watching for your solution. Good luck! :smallsmile:

No problem, thanks for your input! As for how I want to see magic items work, the baseline is bonus to AC/Attack/Damage/Stats based on level replacing the magic items that currently do this. Then one of a couple things:

1) Some new resource used that replicates a lot of the minor magic items that make sense someone could do without an item. For example you might be able to invest a few points to treat any weapon you pick up as if it were keen. Or as if you had the ghost touch property. Probably with a few things like pearl-of-power esque abilities for casters as well.

Magic Items then cover only the major overtly magical things. They'd be more interesting, but rarer and completely optional. So you could remove magic items entirely and still have the game function fine.

2) Alternatively, a magic item system with a heavy basis in incarnum. You get items that you need to bind to yourself to get any real benefit from. You can bind as many items as you want, but you can bind them as stronger or weaker, so you end up choosing between a few powerful effects or many weak effects. The bindings would be changeable with an hours focus or whatever (as opposed to like a single action in incarnum). With this, magic items can be as plentiful or scarce as you want, and still remain relatively balanced, as long as each character eventually gets a few

3) Some combination of the first two. Incarnum based magic items, with a few generic abilities anyone can choose to invest in if they lack items. Possibly also feats and class features that can add new things you can bind.

This is the most likely option, but also the one that takes the most work, and is why I've been delaying working on it for nearly a year. Sitting down and actually doing it all would be a huge undertaking, probably as big as everything else I've done combined.





Edit: Made another quick update. I decided I didn't like that light armors had like 4 max dex, so gave a slight boost to base max dex for light and medium armor. 2 free max dex for light armor, 1 free max dex for medium. This bring's light armor's effective slots up to 4, medium's up to 5.5, heavy remains 7. So now they're all 1.5 apart rather than 2 apart. This helps light armors feel a little less restrictive, while maintaining superiority of heavy armor.

I'm contemplating another change to make increasing max dex reduce weight. 1 lb per for light, 2lb per for medium, and 3lb per for heavy. That way if you have a heavy armor with 2 armor and 20 max dex (theoretically possible, though requires a custom made armor, and thus GM approval) that still weighs 60 lbs. This would then replace the reduce weight option. What do you guys think? Too much, too little, not necessary?

Cieyrin
2012-01-12, 09:59 AM
Hmm, I'm not sure Max Dex necessarily equates to less weight, as it's not just how heavy it is but how it's distributed, as Full Plate is just as heavy as Half-Plate but has the weight better distributed so that it doesn't slow you down as much and lets you throw your weight around that much easier.

Seerow
2012-01-12, 10:17 AM
Hmm, I'm not sure Max Dex necessarily equates to less weight, as it's not just how heavy it is but how it's distributed, as Full Plate is just as heavy as Half-Plate but has the weight better distributed so that it doesn't slow you down as much and lets you throw your weight around that much easier.

So do you not think the possibility of a 60lb armor having a significantly higher max dex than a 15lb armor is bad? Do you think armors are more or less fine with a uniform weight?


Edit: Also I spent 2 hours last night working on a new set of armor that actually takes advantage of its maximum bonus slots across the board (hint the current set doesn't do that, and leaves them somewhat imbalanced), and got it mostly done, but wanted to give it a once over when it wasn't 2:30am to see what kinds of mistakes I made before posting. Wake up today, and the file I was working on is gone, eaten by a random windows update.

Cieyrin
2012-01-12, 10:48 AM
So do you not think the possibility of a 60lb armor having a significantly higher max dex than a 15lb armor is bad? Do you think armors are more or less fine with a uniform weight?

Arcana Evolved called such a thing an Articulated Harness, so yes, I do think such a thing could be gotten away with.


Edit: Also I spent 2 hours last night working on a new set of armor that actually takes advantage of its maximum bonus slots across the board (hint the current set doesn't do that, and leaves them somewhat imbalanced), and got it mostly done, but wanted to give it a once over when it wasn't 2:30am to see what kinds of mistakes I made before posting. Wake up today, and the file I was working on is gone, eaten by a random windows update.

:smallmad:

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-12, 01:02 PM
My two cents: armor weight is far less of an issue than armor distribution. A well made 40lb armor can be far easier to move in than a 15lb poorly crafted armor. For example (an IRL example): jousting armor is heavy, and made of mostly stationary plates, highly restricting movement. Scale male, however, while roughly the same weight, is pretty much flexible all over, allowing it to be used on a true battlefield to far greater effect. And for anyone who disputes the weight difference there, true scale mail is a double layer chain shirt with a layer of scales over the top, and just the shirt can weigh 30lbs or more (compared to a breastplate, which is roughly the same weight but totally solid). The primary reason the solid metal plate armor was used more throughout history is because it's far, far easier to pump out in mass quantities at an acceptable quality.

In short: weight should be a separate thing from max dex mod, because that's a different set of penalties and issues to deal with.

Seerow
2012-01-14, 09:29 PM
Arcana Evolved called such a thing an Articulated Harness, so yes, I do think such a thing could be gotten away with.


If you say so o.0


My two cents: armor weight is far less of an issue than armor distribution. A well made 40lb armor can be far easier to move in than a 15lb poorly crafted armor. For example (an IRL example): jousting armor is heavy, and made of mostly stationary plates, highly restricting movement. Scale male, however, while roughly the same weight, is pretty much flexible all over, allowing it to be used on a true battlefield to far greater effect. And for anyone who disputes the weight difference there, true scale mail is a double layer chain shirt with a layer of scales over the top, and just the shirt can weigh 30lbs or more (compared to a breastplate, which is roughly the same weight but totally solid). The primary reason the solid metal plate armor was used more throughout history is because it's far, far easier to pump out in mass quantities at an acceptable quality.

In short: weight should be a separate thing from max dex mod, because that's a different set of penalties and issues to deal with.



Okay I get your conclusion, but given that do you think it might work to go based off ACP instead? Or just assign weight values randomly? I just think weights all being so uniform seems very bland, and even with being able to move up and down 5lbs per category doesn't seem worth it. (I also run into the problem that .25 slots tend to be hard to fill, so weight mods only really get used for medium armor, unless you want specific elemental resists/vulnerabilities)

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-15, 01:51 PM
The problem with ACP is that WotC didn't really think about it, they just said "!@#$ it, these skills will be penalized when you wear armor", regardless of what that armor is made of. I would honestly give different types of armor different penalties to different skills, instead of just flat out saying "this penalizes this", but you want a simple numerical system to assign values to, so that won't work.

Honestly? I would make weight specific to armor type (light, medium, or heavy) AND armor material. So steel armor might be 20, 45 and 60 pounds respectively, whereas Mithral armor might be 10, 20 and 30 pounds respectively. ACP is mostly derived out of whether or not the person can use the armor right (proficiency and proper Strength/Dexterity to move in it) and how well the armor is made. However, I'd make the following change to ACP: metal armor suffers a default penalty on Swim and Move Silently. Leather armors, wood armors, cloth armors and such really don't penalize those skills too much, and it always bugged me that my hide armor was louder than my chain shirt. :smallannoyed:

Honestly, having ACP in place as a system to buy more points is nice. I do make one suggestion though: I'd make each armor type have a baseline bonus to AC and a baseline ACP. So light armor might have +1AC/-0ACP, medium might be +2AC/-1ACP, and heavy might be +3AC/-2ACP. So if I make a heavy armor, give it 6 additional points of ACP, and dedicate all my points to AC, I would have an AC of 10 and an ACP of 8. Interestingly, I noticed that you sort of did this with shields already, which kind of makes me wonder why you skipped the armors.

Sorry if this is kind of long and rambley; I'm not a very organized thinker. Poke me if I wasn't clear on anything.

Seerow
2012-01-15, 02:48 PM
Well material benefits would be a part of special materials. Mithril already cuts armor weight in half.


Having a clear difference between non-metal and metal armor would be good, as you can feed that into special materials (ie can't make hide armor out of Adamantine). But from your description it would just be a lighter armor, which is something that can be handled through the slots (reduce weight), that doesn't take as many penalty slots from armor class penalty.

Which leaves two possibilities: Either the hide armors are weaker because of lack of penalty slots, or they take other penalties. Which means crit vulnerability or elemental vulnerability. Maybe they're weaker to fire?



Honestly, having ACP in place as a system to buy more points is nice. I do make one suggestion though: I'd make each armor type have a baseline bonus to AC and a baseline ACP. So light armor might have +1AC/-0ACP, medium might be +2AC/-1ACP, and heavy might be +3AC/-2ACP. So if I make a heavy armor, give it 6 additional points of ACP, and dedicate all my points to AC, I would have an AC of 10 and an ACP of 8. Interestingly, I noticed that you sort of did this with shields already, which kind of makes me wonder why you skipped the armors.


I could maybe do this in place of the bonus slots. I already have lighter armors getting a better max dex. I kind of liked the innate customizability of choosing how much or little ACP you want, but really a heavy armor with 2 ACP is already pretty decent. I'll think on it and probably do something along these lines when I decide to take another shot at redoing the core armors.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-15, 06:18 PM
I can see hide armor as being weaker to fire, yes. I can also see most metal armors having issues with electricity. If you want, I can take a stab at making a list of special materials and some suggested properties for them based off of the ones in the WotC books.

Also, even if you don't put a baseline ACP on them (which I wouldn't, if that option leads to taking away the ACP penalty for bonus slots), I still suggest a baseline AC bonus, even if it's just a scaling +1/+2/+3 on light, medium and heavy respectively. This still leaves them opened for a lot of customizeability, and also rewards those people who bothered with heavy armor proficiency (I don't know if it's an issue in your games, but no one uses heavy armor in mine).

Seerow
2012-01-15, 06:43 PM
I can see hide armor as being weaker to fire, yes. I can also see most metal armors having issues with electricity. If you want, I can take a stab at making a list of special materials and some suggested properties for them based off of the ones in the WotC books.

Well the thing is if both have elemental weaknesses, they'll both also have less ACP. The point is that while metal armors typically have higher ACP, leather armors typically are vulnerable to fire. You could say that metal armors are typically insulated by a layer of padding under the armor or something to that effect.


Also, even if you don't put a baseline ACP on them (which I wouldn't, if that option leads to taking away the ACP penalty for bonus slots), I still suggest a baseline AC bonus, even if it's just a scaling +1/+2/+3 on light, medium and heavy respectively. This still leaves them opened for a lot of customizeability, and also rewards those people who bothered with heavy armor proficiency (I don't know if it's an issue in your games, but no one uses heavy armor in mine).


That is an issue in most games (people not wanting to use heavy armor), but that issue is why I allowed for a higher max penalty and a higher slot value for heavy armor. With this system heavy armor has effectively a 2 slot advantage over medium armor, and 4 slots over light armor. Even with the newly raised max dex of lighter armors, it's still an effective 1.5/3 slots over medium/light armor, which is pretty beefy.

The higher slot values typically translate directly to higher AC, but can translate to higher other things like fortification, damage reduction, or elemental resists instead. If I did the +1/2/3 without adding ACP on top of it, what I'd do to compensate is lower the max available slots, thus making new custom created armors less customizable, which I don't think is necessarily desirable.

Now the +armor -ACP with armor category might work. Putting it altogether what it'd look like is:

Light: 1 Armor, 2 Max Dex, 0 ACP (effective 2 slots)
Medium: 2 armor, 1 max dex, -1ACP (effective 2 slots)
Heavy: 3 armor, 0 max dex, -2 ACP (effective 2 slots)

Meaning it all comes out balanced the same as if I just had 2 armor and no max dex/ACP across the board. So I could leave the penalties system and slots alone, and it would all be fine.

Now what it is doing is automatically using up a half a penalty for medium and a full slot for heavy, so max penalty slots would end up being:

1 slot for light
1.5 slots for medium
2 slots for heavy

As opposed to 1/2/3. But should work fine.



Now I COULD make a metal vs leather material as well. Where leather gives you 2 fire weakness, and half weight, while metal gives you 2 ACP and +1 armor, or something like that, but honestly I'm thinking it's best to just incorporate penalties/bonuses along those lines into the armors without having to explicitly choose a baseline material, simply to avoid having to put the extra complication on it.

Seerow
2012-01-15, 11:58 PM
Having learned my lesson last time, I am updating this post a little more frequently rather than doing a bunch of work then putting off updating until the next morning when it can be complete.

As such the new rules for creating armor are up, as are some changes to armor modifications (mostly costs, but weight reduction and max dex got a touch up). I decided to go with my original thought and have max dex reduce armor weight. Before you get onto me about realism, I did include a note in the description indicating that this can be either straight up removing tiny bits, or can be an abstraction, the armor fits you better and thus for purposes of encumbrance weighs less, even if the amount of material is the same. It's not perfect, but I'm going to go with good enough until I see a suggestion I like better, because everyone having the same armor weight seemed really weird to me.


One thing I did do is eliminate quarter point costs. I'm also currently thinking a few new properties may be introduced, partially removing ACP. Like a .5 cost property "Muffled" that eliminates the move silently check to armor, or "Camouflaged" to remove the hide penalty, while still leaving the ACP in tact for other skills. I'm not sure if this is worth a full .5 slot cost though, it will likely see use only for heavy armors. Would it make more sense to bring back .25 slot costs, and have it be something like "Eliminate 3 points of ACP for this skill per .25 slots" (so then even the noisiest heavy armor gets a full elimination for .5 slots, but most light and medium armors are covered with .25).


But I am now working on updating the core armors.



edit: Fun fact. The heaviest armor currently create-able without special materials is 188 lbs. This requires a minimum of 23 strength to wear without encumbrance penalties, after factoring in other gear you almost certainly want 24 strength to wear it. That sounds like a fun high level armor. Maybe the new Mechanus Plate.

Also, I just found out that Adamantine doesn't have a weight increase inherent in it. I thought it gave a +100% weight. Welp I think that may end up changing soon, to make the heaviest armor require 28 strength to wear effectively. Now that's a real man's armor, something so heavy it would crush a lesser being, but if you're strong enough you can wear it and have no ACP or other penalties at all.

Deepbluediver
2012-01-16, 12:28 AM
edit: Fun fact. The heaviest armor currently create-able without special materials is 188 lbs. This requires a minimum of 23 strength to wear without encumbrance penalties, after factoring in other gear you almost certainly want 24 strength to wear it. That sounds like a fun high level armor. Maybe the new Mechanus Plate.

Also, I just found out that Adamantine doesn't have a weight increase inherent in it. I thought it gave a +100% weight. Welp I think that may end up changing soon, to make the heaviest armor require 28 strength to wear effectively. Now that's a real man's armor, something so heavy it would crush a lesser being, but if you're strong enough you can wear it and have no ACP or other penalties at all.

I like the idea for eliminating the ACP only to certain skills. What will you call the one that eliminates the ACP to Swim? :P

A 100% weight increase seems a bit extreme; that makes me think of some of those pictures of fantastic armor where it looks like you could die standing up and the armor keeps you from falling over. Also, if weight is becoming an important factor, does mithral get a decrease?


Fun story: I once played a game where the DM had designed a whole set of traps and puzzles that worked (partialy) on weight. Our party rogue, scouting ahead, didn't set them off but the party warrior, following close behind, triggered every one. The problems began when the rogue started carrying 3 players worth of equipment and ended when a Rust Monster showed up.

It ended because the wizard failed his knowledge check and the entire party promptly lost thier weapons; the advanture was pretty much over after that.

Seerow
2012-01-16, 12:52 AM
I like the idea for eliminating the ACP only to certain skills. What will you call the one that eliminates the ACP to Swim? :P

I was hoping I might see some suggestions for that one actually :p. Or for any of the other skills I didn't mention. Fluff justifications would be nice too.

Personally, I'm leaning towards saying that ACP doesn't count against str based skills at all, but make armor's effective weight double when in the water. So you can still climb and jump just fine in armor as long as you're not over encumbered, at which point it's the weight that's hurting you, not the restricted movement of the armor. Similarly if you're good enough at swimming you can keep swimming while wearing heavy armor, but swimming with a heavy load is a pretty arduous task, and you're almost certainly going to have a heavy load with armor in the water.

For dex based skills, I already mentioned hide/move silent, that leaves Balance, Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, and Tumble. Any suggestions for any of these would be nice.



A 100% weight increase seems a bit extreme; that makes me think of some of those pictures of fantastic armor where it looks like you could die standing up and the armor keeps you from falling over. Also, if weight is becoming an important factor, does mithral get a decrease?

It is kind of extreme, but for a more normal heavy armor, say full plate, you're looking at 60 base weight, say a max dex of 2. That gives 54 weight. Add the weight increase property once, and it's about 72 lbs. So adamantine full plate is 142 lbs. That's damn heavy, but definitely manageable for a mid level adventurer. It can be worn as a medium load as early as 16 str, and as a light load at 21-22 str.

Mithril does have a decrease inherent in it. By the book it has a 50% weight reduction. I'm thinking with the removal of movement penalties from armor itself, I can eliminate the "counts as a armor class lighter" bonus. So Mithril would reduce armor weight 50%, reduce ACP by 3, increase max dex by 2, and ASF by 10%. Wow mithril has a lot of bonuses. But anyway, that's equivalent to ~5.5 slots worth of upgrades. That's actually quite a bit so I'll probably end up culling that list some more, but regardless ideally Adamantine would end up balanced against it.


Edit: And the revised core armors are up. And I'm really hoping I can stick with this version of armor, minus adding a few of the properties mentioned above. I'm feeling happy with it now, but I've said the same thing the last 3 times so...

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-16, 01:35 AM
I suggest "bubbly" for Swim, because the idea of bubbly admantine armor makes me giggle. Also, I have to admit: the first thing I thought of was a heavy armor that instead of having an eye slit has a periscope. :smallbiggrin:

Balance: Upright armor, has an internal support system included for added support and balance.
Escape Artist: Slick armor, has a slightly oiled feel about it to help one slide out of sticky situations
Slight of Hand: Dextrous armor, has very flexible gloves/gauntlets and joints to allow for slick tricks
Tumble: Rolling armor, which is balanced weight-wise and rounded on the outside for smooth rolling
Swim: Buoyant armor, has several small bladders installed that support one in water, and has the weight distributed to help one swim

Also, I liked the .25 point system. :smallfrown:

Seerow
2012-01-16, 01:57 AM
I suggest "bubbly" for Swim, because the idea of bubbly admantine armor makes me giggle. Also, I have to admit: the first thing I thought of was a heavy armor that instead of having an eye slit has a periscope. :smallbiggrin:

Balance: Upright armor, has an internal support system included for added support and balance.
Escape Artist: Slick armor, has a slightly oiled feel about it to help one slide out of sticky situations
Slight of Hand: Dextrous armor, has very flexible gloves/gauntlets and joints to allow for slick tricks
Tumble: Rolling armor, which is balanced weight-wise and rounded on the outside for smooth rolling
Swim: Buoyant armor, has several small bladders installed that support one in water, and has the weight distributed to help one swim

Also, I liked the .25 point system. :smallfrown:

I like the cut of your jib. These will probably be making it in tomorrow. I may even put back the .25 points for the things that had it before to work with this (since if I put in an inverse of these as penalties, there'd be a lot more .25 options to choose from, which makes me a little more comfortable with it. I just really didn't like having the .25 slots but then only having like one or two things to use when it came up.

TuggyNE
2012-01-16, 06:44 AM
Doesn't Stormwrack have "keeled" for armor that doesn't have such massive penalties to Swim? Anyway, I think that would be a good name, and gives at least some justification (the keel enables you to swim straighter with less effort, and the joints are designed for the movements of swimming).

Cieyrin
2012-01-16, 10:03 AM
I like the cut of your jib. These will probably be making it in tomorrow. I may even put back the .25 points for the things that had it before to work with this (since if I put in an inverse of these as penalties, there'd be a lot more .25 options to choose from, which makes me a little more comfortable with it. I just really didn't like having the .25 slots but then only having like one or two things to use when it came up.

Looks like you forgot Open Lock, which is also Dex-based. I'd maybe just include that with Sleight of Hand, as it seems weird that enhancing manual dexterity would benefit one but not the other, since they're dependent on both. I'd say the same for Balance and Tumble & Hide and Move Silently, though that last one is a tad less necessary, I think.

TuggyNE
2012-01-16, 10:37 AM
Looks like you forgot Open Lock, which is also Dex-based. I'd maybe just include that with Sleight of Hand, as it seems weird that enhancing manual dexterity would benefit one but not the other, since they're dependent on both. I'd say the same for Balance and Tumble & Hide and Move Silently, though that last one is a tad less necessary, I think.

Open Lock doesn't normally have an Armor Check Penalty, though. (For whatever reason.) Perhaps that should be remedied as well...?

Cieyrin
2012-01-16, 10:44 AM
Open Lock doesn't normally have an Armor Check Penalty, though. (For whatever reason.) Perhaps that should be remedied as well...?

So it doesn't, probably due to the fact that it's only the gloves affecting you for the most part, instead of the entire armor. Slipped my mind, apparently.

Seerow
2012-01-16, 12:32 PM
Yeah when I took the list of skills that had a penalty I just went to the SRD and copy/pasted.

I just updated the ACP rules to reflect what I was talking about before (ACP from armor applies to dex, not str. ACP incurred from encumbrance still applies to str checks), and put in the new properties to remove ACP from one specific skill. Also put the combat maneuvers and elemental resists back to .25 per 1 rather than .5 per 2.


Also considering a series of custom new armors, both because it sounds fun, and to make the armor section a little less tiny relative to the weapons section. Things along the lines of Mechanus Gear (really heavy, sturdy, armor. Possibly Exceptional quality), Elven Battle Plate, Thief Armor, Arctic Rainment, Desert Plate, etc.

If anyone has some suggestions or requests for new armors to be statted up, this would be the time.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-16, 01:28 PM
Crystal Armor, though I forget what book it's from; it's heavy armor made of crystal that grows on the wearer, you make a Str check to break out of it at night and the next morning when you get up you're back in your armor. The book it was from states that it takes 8 hours to grow back.

flabort
2012-01-16, 01:34 PM
Hey, got some odd numbers for you related to increasing/splitting damage dice, that go outside the 'norm', or your limits. And strange thing is, even when outside those limits like this, the prices still can't be changed for a specific number of dice (4d4 cannot get more or less expensive). You don't have to update your tables, I just thought this was cool. I mean, compare the numbers I came up with, for the values that are also on your table, with the values on your table. Their the same, except that the route to get there was radically different!
I mean, I came up with 8d2, for 7.5 slots, increased it to 8d4, for a total of 15.5 slots - which is the number of slots 8d4 had if you DON'T use d2s. Increasing up to d20s and then splitting down to d10s also yielded the same costs as the d10s normally had.
Weird.... But awesome.

Unusual Damage Dice
A d4 may be split into two d2s. Increasing from d2s yields d4s. The total costs resulting from doing this more than once do not change!
{table=head]Base Damage Die|Previous damage Die|Slot Cost|Total Cost
2d2|1d4|0.5|0.5
2d4|2d2|2|2.5
4d2|2d4|0.5|3
4d4|4d2|4|7
8d2|4d4|.5|7.5
8d4|8d2|8|15.5
16d2|8d4|.5|16
16d4|16d2|16|32
32d2|16d4|.5|32.5[/table]
While no d14s, d16s, or d18s exist, in theory it should be able to increase through these and up to d20! Splitting can happen at d16 and d20, to d8 and d10 respectively. Simply put, splitting can happen when the result would be an even number, and increasing increases by increments of 2. There is no theoretical limit, and only what dice you actually have limit you IRL.
{table=head]Base Damage Die|Previous damage Die|Slot Cost|Total Cost
1d14|1d12|1|5
1d16|1d14|1|6
2d8|1d16|0.5|6.5
1d18|1d16|1|7
1d20|1d18|1|8
2d10|1d20|0.5|8.5
2d14|2d12|2|12.5
2d16|2d14|2|14.5
4d8|2d16|0.5|15
2d18|2d16|2|16.5
2d20|2d18|2|18.5
4d10|2d20|0.5|19
...|...|...|...
4d16|4d14|4|31
8d8|4d16|.5|31.5
16d4|8d8|.5|32
32d2|16d4|.5|32.5
...|...|...|...
4d20|4d18|4|39
1d80|1d78|1|38
2d40|1d80|.5|38.5
4d20|2d40|.5|39
...|...|...|...
1d100|1d98|1|48[/table]

As for the current armor deal, do you have armor spikes yet?
What about... Hmm, I'm coming up with nothing... Hmm. Most of the ideas I can think of would be magic armors. *Shrug* Sorry?

Seerow
2012-01-16, 01:40 PM
Hey, got some odd numbers for you related to increasing/splitting damage dice, that go outside the 'norm', or your limits. And strange thing is, even when outside those limits like this, the prices still can't be changed for a specific number of dice (4d4 cannot get more or less expensive). You don't have to update your tables, I just thought this was cool. I mean, compare the numbers I came up with, for the values that are also on your table, with the values on your table. Their the same, except that the route to get there was radically different!
I mean, I came up with 8d2, for 7.5 slots, increased it to 8d4, for a total of 15.5 slots - which is the number of slots 8d4 had if you DON'T use d2s. Increasing up to d20s and then splitting down to d10s also yielded the same costs as the d10s normally had.
Weird.... But awesome.


Yeah, that was actually intended. While I didn't intend for d2s or d14s or whatever, I had to make sure whether you split the dice at d8 or d12, you come out to the same slot cost when they catch back up with each other. Glad you liked the symmetry of it. I'm sure it could lead to all sorts of fun when playing with imaginary dice.


As for the current armor deal, do you have armor spikes yet?


Yep, Armor Spikes are an armor property that costs 1 slot. The spikes themselves can't be masterworked or enchanted, but automatically gain an enhancement bonus to hit/damage equal to the enhancement bonus to AC of the armor. (So a +5 armor would also work as a +5 armor spike).


Crystal Armor, though I forget what book it's from; it's heavy armor made of crystal that grows on the wearer, you make a Str check to break out of it at night and the next morning when you get up you're back in your armor. The book it was from states that it takes 8 hours to grow back.


That sounds pretty out there. So the only way to get out of the armor is to break it, and it regrows itself when you're asleep? Does that make you count as sleeping in armor? Is there really any mechanical effect that this has or is it just cool fluff?

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-16, 01:57 PM
I seem to recall it having crunch involving magic to make it worthwhile, though I'd have to actually find the statistics for it to know for sure. Gimme a bit, I'll see if I can scrounge it up.

Ha ha! Found it on the intarwebs:
Dendritic Armor (http://www.roleplaynexus.com/armorlist.html)

So it's pretty much a fluff armor, yeah. Still, I've always thought the concept was cool. And as long as you're on that site, take a peek at Mountain Plate and Sectioned Armor as well. Sectioned armor is especially nice, since you can take a bit to reduce it from heave to medium or light at your discretion.

Seerow
2012-01-16, 02:14 PM
I'll look through that, seems to be a nice list of various splat book armors.

I do run into the problem looking at it that a lot of these armors simply just use bigger penalties as their form of 'balance' than my system actually allows for, which means adapting them will involve a little bit of creativity and/or armors with much lesser penalties than what it assumes.

Edit: Maybe an exotic armor category to go alongside tower shields is needed? Personally I'm leaning towards no, armor values are already going to be a bit higher than normal, but...

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-16, 02:48 PM
I seem to recall exotic armors getting their own feat in one of the books, though I don't recall which. I certainly don't think it's a stretch to create an exotic armor ranking, and like the idea a lot, actually. That lets me as a GM throw things at my players that they don't expect, which I always support. :smallamused:

Seerow
2012-01-16, 03:15 PM
I seem to recall exotic armors getting their own feat in one of the books, though I don't recall which. I certainly don't think it's a stretch to create an exotic armor ranking, and like the idea a lot, actually. That lets me as a GM throw things at my players that they don't expect, which I always support. :smallamused:

I believe it was in Races of Stone, but I could be wrong on that.

My main problem with introducing exotic armors is that it raises potential ACs even higher. As it is I'm already pretty uneasy about tower shields, and am considering making it so you can't have a custom tower shield at all, or a tower shield must always have the cover property. As it is you could theoretically make a 6 base AC shield. Introducing an exotic armor with say 3 more possible slots (1 slot and 2 higher max penalties) raises maximum armor from 12 to 15.

This can utterly destroy low level RNG, and even at high levels can prove disruptive, especially if trying to introduce anything to balance the RNG (a la my other armor topic). I'm trying to maintain roughly the same range as what core armors have, while making heavier armors better, as opposed to useless. I think I've more or less accomplished that, but it's a pretty fine line that it's already toeing pretty closely.

Maybe I could do it and have a hard cap of 10 armor? (or a soft cap where it becomes more expensive past that point). Or even a cap of 6 slots being spent on armor+max dex. (which would give a maximum max dex of 14 with 1 armor on a light armor, or a maximum armor of 9 with 0 max dex on a heavy armor).

It would make it so exotic armors or masterworked heavy armors can't get too out of hand on the RNG, and while masterworked light armors might catch up with heavy armors, they still have lower base values, so they'll always be at least slightly weaker, and even when they get as close as they can, the Heavy Armor will be similar in quality, with more random other properties.



Anyway sorry for rambling there, I was really just kind of thinking as I typed. The tl;dr is what about a hard or soft cap at 6 slots invested into armor/max dex before you have to invest in something else.


Examples:

Masterworked Light/Medium/Heavy Armor going for max dex:
Light: 1 armor, 14 max dex, 1 slot worth of penalties
Medium: 2 armor, 13 max dex, 1.5 slots worth of penalties, 1.5 slots worth of misc other benefits.
Heavy: 3 armor, 12 max dex, 2 slots worth of penalties, 3 slots worth of misc other benefits

Actually has a nice bit of symetry. Each armor caps out with the same total, but each step up trades 1 armor for 1 max dex. So light armor remains preferred for extremely high dex characters, unless they really want particular perks.

Masterworked Light/Medium/Heavy Armor going for max armor:
Light: 7 armor, 2 max dex, 1 slot worth of penalties
Medium: 8 armor, 1 max dex, 1.5 slots worth of penalties, 1.5 slots of misc. benefits.
Heavy: 9 armor, 0 max dex, 2 slots worth of penalties, 3 slots of misc benefits.

Once again the symmetry from above shows up, with all 3 armors having the same total value, heavier armors having more armor and less max dex.


Best part of this is it wouldn't require rewriting the existing armors again, since nothing has over 6 slots. One downside is it makes Heavy armor stronger in early game, as it's the only armor that hits the cap right out of the gate, so for heavy armor masterwork is all about neat new toys and tricks, while medium and light armor are all about upgrading quality to play catch up with the heavy armor guy.

flabort
2012-01-16, 03:41 PM
Mmm. I see why you didn't include d2 now: Brutal. For .5 slots, we have 2d2 damage. We take brutal to reroll ones, at the cost of (.5*2) slots, and again to reroll 2s, at the cost of (.5*2) slots again. so for 2.5 slots, we reroll EVERY roll.

:smallredface:

Still, it doesn't ADD the rolls like the D2 crusader. So it never resolves, but it has a max 4 damage. :smalltongue: Oh, that's silly. A D2 Crusader would still function with a Brutal d2 weapon, though, so 1.5 slots; It wouldn't need to take any cleric levels, too, so that frees up a little bit of the build. And the crusader still needs 12 levels or so of crusader before it can actually use Aura of Chaos. :smallwink: Before Crusader 12, though, it's still only dealing 4 damage (sure, guaranteed to be 4, but that's beside the point).

:smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

Not that there'd be much reason to use that sort of cheese if you're just having fun with freinds. It's only useful if you're having, say, a cheese-a-thon. :smallwink:

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-16, 06:30 PM
Maybe I'm just dense, but I really don't see an armor with AC15 being gamebreaking, since you have to take a feat even as a warrior class to be able to equip it, and several feats for non-warriors. If I burn a feat to have the ability to wear it, an increase of +3AC is a good benefit.

Also, I'd like to suggest the property "racial" for weapons, which makes the weapon in question exotic for all but that race. If you make exotic armors, it could go there too. Not sure how I'd price it; probably half a slot.

Seerow
2012-01-16, 06:48 PM
Maybe I'm just dense, but I really don't see an armor with AC15 being gamebreaking, since you have to take a feat even as a warrior class to be able to equip it, and several feats for non-warriors. If I burn a feat to have the ability to wear it, an increase of +3AC is a good benefit.

Also, I'd like to suggest the property "racial" for weapons, which makes the weapon in question exotic for all but that race. If you make exotic armors, it could go there too. Not sure how I'd price it; probably half a slot.

Well by itself, a 15 AC armor isn't bad at high levels. But consider a core game, a Fighter who starts with a feat in exotic armor, for a 12 AC armor, and a tower shield specially designed for 6 AC. He's now a level 1 character with a 28 AC, with one feat invested. That's bad. He has 34 AC by level 6 from investing in masterworks. This pushes him pretty much off the RNG from everything until very high levels even if you eliminate all magic bonuses to AC completely.

It takes AC from being useless to making melee attacking useless in a stroke. That's bad.

Also consider if you try to fix the RNG, and then implement this system, a la my other armor topic. There the AC is balanced assuming ~8 armor. While a really high dex can skew this a bit, it shouldn't take you more than a few points off relative to straight AC unless you have something exceptionally high relative to everyone else. The difference between the guy with a +6 dex and the guy with a +12 dex is going to be 3 AC overall. But when you can have an exotic armor with +12 dex and 9 Armor still, that AC is going to be massive, well beyond what attack bonuses can keep up with.


Basically, no matter how you tweak the system, it's really hard to account for armor values that can be as far as +10 apart and remain balanced in any form.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-16, 07:38 PM
Two feats, actually; Fighters don't start proficient in tower shields. And y'know, I've never actually seen anybody use a tower shield. Do you get them in your groups a lot? I'm honestly curious here.

I can see where you're coming from, though. I guess exotic armor wouldn't work. It still smacks of "melee doesn't get nice things" to me, but I at least understand why.

Seerow
2012-01-16, 07:52 PM
Two feats, actually; Fighters don't start proficient in tower shields. And y'know, I've never actually seen anybody use a tower shield. Do you get them in your groups a lot? I'm honestly curious here.

I can see where you're coming from, though. I guess exotic armor wouldn't work. It still smacks of "melee doesn't get nice things" to me, but I at least understand why.

From the SRD: "A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields)."


So Fighters do get tower shields. Many people don't use tower shields because in 3.5 they really aren't worth it. You get an extra -10 ACP, you take -2 to all attack rolls, and while you do get 2 more AC than a heavy shield, that doesn't make up for the -2 to all attacks. To top it all off the tower shield special ability requires you to give up ALL of your attacks, and doesn't work against spells.

Here, tower shields have a significantly lower penalty, no penalty at all to hit, the same AC, and the cover ability has been drastically improved (soft cover when fighting normally, regular cover when fighting defensively, and total cover when taking full defense). So yes, I would fully expect anybody capable of using a tower shield to try to do so if they are going to use a shield at all.


This isn't so much a case of "No nice things" as "Things need to stay on the RNG for the majority of cases for the system to be remotely useful", and giving too much armor makes it so that really doesn't happen. The nice things are the relatively cheap energy resistance, improved AC against crit confirms, etc. Particularly the energy resist properties and the new skill ACP negation properties should result in some nice stuff when combined with armor specialization, even if you can't pump your AC to the stratosphere.

Cieyrin
2012-01-16, 07:57 PM
Two feats, actually; Fighters don't start proficient in tower shields. And y'know, I've never actually seen anybody use a tower shield. Do you get them in your groups a lot? I'm honestly curious here.

I can see where you're coming from, though. I guess exotic armor wouldn't work. It still smacks of "melee doesn't get nice things" to me, but I at least understand why.

Uh...yes, they are proficient with tower shields. They're the only class that's supposed to be proficient without spending a feat (Crusader omission notwithstanding).

Also, Dendritic Armor appears both in the Arms and Equipment Guide and Races of Faerun, specifically for the Urdunnir, the Stone Cutter Dwarves, who don't have to break out of their Dendritic Armor b/c they can walk through stone at will, anyways. If they want out of it, they just walk out of it. :smalltongue:

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-16, 09:41 PM
Huh. Well I'll be damned, they are proficient, aren't they? All this time I thought that no base classes in the PHBs got proficiency with them without the feat. Nice to know.

Hmm. I hadn't realized just how strong you'd made tower shields. While I like the boosts you gave them, isn't all that a bit much? Soft cover when not defending at all seems a bit extreme to me...

Seerow
2012-01-16, 09:55 PM
Huh. Well I'll be damned, they are proficient, aren't they? All this time I thought that no base classes in the PHBs got proficiency with them without the feat. Nice to know.

Hmm. I hadn't realized just how strong you'd made tower shields. While I like the boosts you gave them, isn't all that a bit much? Soft cover when not defending at all seems a bit extreme to me...

Soft Cover only applies a +4 bonus vs ranged attacks. It's nice, but hardly game breaking. Similarly actual cover gives you +4 to AC and +2 to reflex, but requires you to fight defensively which is -4 to attacks for +2 to AC normally (so you're now at -4 to hit for +6 to ac and 2 to reflex). You can take total defense for full cover, which is basically super LoS block, but costs all offense.

It's pretty strong, but at a cost of 3 slots, and the penalties associated with the biggest benefits, I think it's fine. If tower shields are too strong, it's because I gave them too many slots. Maybe cut penalty slots to 2, and take the extra slot out of AC, so you have 3 AC and cover, instead of 4 AC and Cover.

NineThePuma
2012-01-16, 10:05 PM
What if you make speed penalties part of ACP?

Sure, that fighter can pick up some +15 AC armor, but they're going to be moving at 15ft a round.

Seerow
2012-01-16, 10:24 PM
What if you make speed penalties part of ACP?

Sure, that fighter can pick up some +15 AC armor, but they're going to be moving at 15ft a round.

I very explicitly want to avoid movement penalties as an inherent part of armor. Penalizing defense by making you move slower was a bad idea from the start, and not one I intend on perpetuating.


Anyway as for changes.

Right now I'm thinking shield AC beyond 3, or Armor AC + Max Dex over 6 slots, cost triple slots. The increased cost of AC should discourage most people from grabbing it, but in the cases where it is used it shouldn't disrupt rng too much.

Also will likely introduce exotic armor with +2 slots, and +1 penalty slot over heavy armor, right now I'm thinking you can choose the base template you want to use. So an exotic light armor would have 1 armor, 2 max dex, 0 ACP, and 6 bonus slots with up to 3 penalty slots, and weigh 20lb base. An exotic heavy armor will have 3 armor, 0 Max Death, 2 ACP, and 6 bonus slots with up to 3 penalty slots, and weigh 60lbs base.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-16, 10:45 PM
Hmm. I don't think it should be an inherent part of armor, but I can see adding a movement penalty and a running speed penalty as options for armor to open new slots. You could call it Bulky armor, where it restricts how fast you can move in exchange for stronger defense.

Seerow
2012-01-16, 11:03 PM
Hmm. I don't think it should be an inherent part of armor, but I can see adding a movement penalty and a running speed penalty as options for armor to open new slots. You could call it Bulky armor, where it restricts how fast you can move in exchange for stronger defense.

I wouldn't mind that as much, it could probably be a decent penalty.

I generally see Increased Weight as the bulky option. You want armor that's really bulky and restricts movement, increase weight a lot. As mentioned you can get around 190 lbs on heavy armor, and with an extra penalty slot, Exotic Armor can get up to 330 lbs. That's gonna be bulky and restrict movement for the huge vast majority of people. But if on the offchance the Incredible Hulk gets his hands on the armor, he'll be okay because to him 300 lbs is about as light as a feather.

I guess there is room for something that is just straight up says "reduce movement" but I can't see where someone would actively choose to put that on their armor over the other penalties available.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-17, 02:03 AM
Hmm, that depends. A 5' decrease in speed or -1ACP seems a pretty even trade if you're a skill monkey, especially if you aren't worried about rushing but want to move without a ton of bulk.

Also, the mental image of the Hulk in a size-changing plated cod piece has scarred me for life. Thank you, Seerow. Thank you. *shudder*

Seerow
2012-01-17, 05:12 PM
Hmm, that depends. A 5' decrease in speed or -1ACP seems a pretty even trade if you're a skill monkey, especially if you aren't worried about rushing but want to move without a ton of bulk.

Typically the skill monkey is someone who would rather have that extra mobility to avoid getting hit in the first place than someone who's willing to trade mobility for extra armor.

That said I did add "Bulky" as a penalty slot option, giving a full slot. I personally still doubt it's worth it, but if people want to use it, it's there.


Also, the mental image of the Hulk in a size-changing plated cod piece has scarred me for life. Thank you, Seerow. Thank you. *shudder*

I live to serve.




Also, put in the softcap on armor+max dex, and exotic armor rules. Have yet to actually implement any exotic armors, but will probably do that within the next day or so.

Noctis Vigil
2012-01-18, 09:43 AM
Suggested ideas for additional penalties to add armor slots:

Flexible: This armor isn't hard, it's easy to move in, but not quite as protective. Armor made like this offers one less AC to bludgeoning damage than it does to piercing or slashing damage. (cannot be done with plate armors)
Woven: This armor was made by weaving strips of the material together, making it slightly less protective than normal. Armor made like this offers one less AC to piercing damage than it does to bludgeoning or slashing damage.

Cieyrin
2012-01-18, 09:49 AM
Suggested ideas for additional penalties to add armor slots:

Flexible: This armor isn't hard, it's easy to move in, but not quite as protective. Armor made like this offers one less AC to bludgeoning damage than it does to piercing or slashing damage. (cannot be done with plate armors)
Woven: This armor was made by weaving strips of the material together, making it slightly less protective than normal. Armor made like this offers one less AC to piercing damage than it does to bludgeoning or slashing damage.

And suddenly Morningstars become more awesome.

Seerow
2012-02-09, 04:19 PM
Been a while since I updated here. Part of it is being busy, part is just not being quite sure what to do with it.


I did decide to scrap exotic armors. I am still leaving the 6 slot softcap for now, but that may get removed later simply by virtue of me thinking it's too confusing for a player wanting to know if he can increase his light armor or not. I could probably make a more simplified way of explaining it from that perspective. ie something like light armor can spend X slots on more armor/dex before paying extra, medium armor can spend Y slots on more armor/dex before paying extra. Heavy armor can't spend any without paying extra. It works out mostly the same, but somewhat weaker for any armors that are built by default with properties that aren't AC and Max Dex.

I also added a couple new penalties that provide penalties to move silently/hide. Thinking about adding them for the other skills as well, but once again would like help with names to do so.


Suggested ideas for additional penalties to add armor slots:

Flexible: This armor isn't hard, it's easy to move in, but not quite as protective. Armor made like this offers one less AC to bludgeoning damage than it does to piercing or slashing damage. (cannot be done with plate armors)
Woven: This armor was made by weaving strips of the material together, making it slightly less protective than normal. Armor made like this offers one less AC to piercing damage than it does to bludgeoning or slashing damage.

I kind of like this, but would rather have three different types, either each type weak to 1, or each type weak to 2. As written, it makes people inclined to favor bludgeoning weapons just because. Alternatively this could also be a property, working in reverse, giving a bonus point or two of AC against a specific type of armor.

ChumpLump
2012-02-09, 06:15 PM
Last year I dived through all the D&D books I could get my hands on, and fished out every weapon I could find in order to compile, and calibrate for my own gaming pleasures, and I've found many have properties that are not listed here.
Recently I've been adapting your weapon system to match my own house-rules and the like, and have been writing up some new properties. Would you be interested in seeing these (when I finish)?
I will most likely do the same with armor once I get the weapon stuff done.

Seerow
2012-02-09, 06:36 PM
Last year I dived through all the D&D books I could get my hands on, and fished out every weapon I could find in order to compile, and calibrate for my own gaming pleasures, and I've found many have properties that are not listed here.
Recently I've been adapting your weapon system to match my own house-rules and the like, and have been writing up some new properties. Would you be interested in seeing these (when I finish)?
I will most likely do the same with armor once I get the weapon stuff done.

Sure. It's always good to see someone else's work, worst case scenario there's nothing I care to use but it's there for others to see. Best case there's some ideas that can be worked back in.

ChumpLump
2012-02-15, 09:23 AM
So, besides some new weapon properties, I've changed up some of the basic stuff. The changes are all small details, that may not really swing balance one way or another, but they really aren't terribly important.
I will note that I've changed the cost of damage to be equal to the increase in average damage from 1d4, and that I've used this system to balance improvised and natural weapons as well. (Natural Weapons cost 4 wpts, and Improvised ones cost 5 wpts).


Weapon Properties

General Properties

Alchemical Storing (General) 1 wpt
A weapon with this property is highly resistant to acid, fire, and corrosion damage, and any other types of substance that may be loaded into it. When a flask containing an alchemical, poisonous, or similar substance (be it a grenade, compound, resin, or myst) is plugged into a special slot on the weapon, it becomes primed. When a wielder strikes their target with a primed weapon and successfully attacks a target, an internal pump instantly expels the substance through hollows and out along veins in the business end of the weapon. In addition to taking any damage dealt by this weapon,the target also takes damage as if it had been struck by the flask attached to the weapon. Adjacent creatures, including the wielder, are not subject to splash damage. Loading an alchemical storing weapon is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a free action. Only one flask may be loaded into this weapon at a time.
Special:By spending an additional weapon point this weapon may be loaded with up to three flasks. While all three flasks are primed, only one flask may be activated on a given attack, choosing which single flask activates is a free action after the attack successfully attacks a target. Loading each individual flask requires a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity; the Rapid Reload feat reduces this to a free action.

Armor Penetration (General) 1 wpt
A weapon with this property ignores the first 2 points of Armor Class granted to its target from Armor, Natural Armor, Shields, Cover and other hard armor.
Special: This property may be taken up to twice. Its benefits stack.

Barbed (General) 2 wpt
A weapon with this property is designed to lodge within its opponent, inhibiting their combat abilities. A barbed weapon may lodge in an opponent it has successfully dealt damage against. Such an opponent must make a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + the damage inflicted in order to avoid having the weapon lodged. While this weapon remains in the wound the opponent suffers a -2 penalty to Dexterity, which stacks with penalties from other similar sources (such as multiple lodged barbed weapons). If a creature is lodged with one or more barbed weapons attempts to cast a spell, it must succeed at a Concentration check (DC 15) or lose the spell. The lodged creature can pull the barbed weapon from its wound if it has a free hand and takes a full-round action to do so, but in so doing it takes damage equal to the initial damage the barbed weapon dealt. An appropriate Heal check (DC equal to the attack roll that sank the weapon, and 1 minute’s time) may be used to safely remove the barbed weapon. A removed barbed weapon does not infer a penalty to Dexterity, even if removed violently. Naturally a wielder loses use of a lodged weapon.
Special: A barbed weapon may not penalize Dexterity to below 3.


Battle Instrument, Wardance (General) 1 wpt
A weapon with this property may function as both a musical instrument and a weapon, and may be used as both simultaneously, effectively allowing it to be played while taking advantage of an attack or full attack action. Both the instrument functionality and the weapon functionality may be made of masterwork quality, but both must be paid for separately. Such a weapon is difficult to identify as a weapon, and requires a Craft check of DC equal to the craft check used to create the weapon to successfully notice its combat potential.

Charger, Greater (General) 2 wpt
A weapon with this property deals double damage when used with any charge attack. If by some means the character may make multiple attacks at the end of the charge, this extra damage is only dealt if this weapon is used for the first attack, and only on the first attack.

Destructive (General) .5 wpt
A weapon with this property is quite apt at destroying objects. This weapon deals +2 damage when sundering or attacking objects or creatures of the Construct type.
Special: This property may be taken up to twice. Its benefits stack.

Dirt Cheap (General) 1 wpt
This special property reduces the price of the weapon to a negligible amount, effectively making the weapon easy enough to find or to create from readily available materials that may be gained at no price. Such a weapon does not break Vow of Poverty, and has a Craft DC 5 points lower than normal.
Increasing the quality of this weapon still increases its price (and such a weapon would break a Vow of Poverty), however it still benefits from the lower craft DC.

Dismount (General) .5
When used against a mounted opponent, this weapon increases the DC of the opponents Ride check to remain in the saddle by 5, this applies to both attacks (see Ride) and trip attacks made to dismount the target (see Trip), however this property does not grant a weapon the ability to make trip attempts.

Disposable (General) 1 wpt
A weapon with this property is easily disposed of, and quickly destroyed in a manner that is extraordinarily difficult to trace. Finding even the traces of this weapon after it has been disposed of requires an Search Check equal to 10 + the character who disposed of it’s Hide Check.

Explosive (General) 1 wpt per Die
A weapon with this property is extraordinarily dangerous in the hands of the lucky. If any of the dice in its damage comes up as its maximum (such as a 6 on a d6) it is added to the damage and re-rolled, this new number is also added to the damage. If the maximum comes up again, continue re-rolling and adding until it does not. Do not do this for extra dice added from other sources, critical hits, sneak attacks or precision based damage.
Special:This property may not be used in conjunction with a weapon that has a damage die lower than a d4 or one that has the Brutal property.

Flexid (General) .5 wpt
Attempts to disarm or sunder a weapon with this property suffer a -4 penalty due to the incredible flexibility of the weapon.

Folding (General) 1 wpt
A weapon with this property is collapsible making it easier to conceal. Such a weapon may be collapsed or folded down as a full-round action. While in this state this weapon does not suffer a penalty to Sleight of Hand checks to hide the item on one’s person. A folding weapon may be unfolded or extended as part of a the action required to draw the weapon.

Intimidating (General) .5 wpt
A weapon with this property grants its wielder a +2 bonus to Intimidate checks to demoralize foes in combat.
Special: This property may be taken up to twice. Its benefits stack.

Resonant (General) 1 wpt
A weapon with this property creates a horrible din when it strikes an opponent, and may deafen a struck creature. A creature that is damaged by a resonant weapon must make a Fortitude save of a DC equal to 10+ the damage dealt or suffer from the deafened condition for 1d6+1 rounds. (A deafened creature, in addition to the obvious effects, suffers a -4 penalty to initiative, and has a -20% chance to miss-cast or lose any spell with a verbal component that it tries to cast.)

Staggering (General) 1 wpt
A weapon with this property deals more than additional damage on a successful critical hit. If a wielder successfully confirms a critical hit with this weapon, they may use a free action to make a Bull Rush or Overrun attempt against the opponent struck by the critical hit. This opponent cannot take an attack of opportunity nor can they choose to avoid the Overrun attempt.

Shield Weight (General) 1 wpt
A weapon with this property is designed to make shields unwieldy, and inconvenient for their bearers. If this weapon is used to Sunder a shield, and succesfully deals damage to the shield the weapon (or its ammunition, in the case of a projectile weapon) is stuck in the shield. Removing this weapon takes 2d4 rounds. While this weapon is attached to a shield, the target must drop the shield or suffer a -2 penalty to Armor Class and on attack rolls and Reflex saves due to the added weight and awkwardness, this penalty stacks with itself (in the case of multiple weapons lodged in the shield). Obviously, the wielder loses use of the weapon while it is attached in this way. Ranged weapons with this property may be used to Sunder shields within their first range increment.

Strapped (General) .5 wpt
A weapon with this property is strapped to its wielder’s body, and requires 5 full round actions to stape down. Such a weapon may be wielded without being strapped down, but does not benifit from this property. While strapped this weapon provides the wielder with a +10 circumstance bonus to avoid being disarmed of the strapped weapon. While this weapon is strapped the hand that it is equipped to may not be used for any activity besides holding the weapon.

Weapon Tool (General) .5
A weapon with this property provides a +2 circumstance bonus on a single skill check, chosen at the time of creation form the following list. (Balance, Climb, Craft (Each skill, chosen individually), Disable Device, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Jump, Open Lock, Profession (Each skill, chosen individually), Ride, Survival, and Swim.)Special: This property may be taken up to twice. Its benefits stack.

Whistling (General) .5 wpt
A weapon with this property generates whistling noises that can alert nearby allies or signal those who are familiar with it. When wielded in combat (or moved in a particular fashion that requires a standard action) this weapon makes a shrill noise that can be heard at great distances, requiring a DC -5 Listen check to hear, but this DC only increases by 1 for every 50 feet between the sound and the listener. This sound may be disguised as a sound naturally heard within certain environments (such as a hawk’s cry, or the slushing of an underground ooze), and requires a Listen Check of a DC equal to the craft check of the weapon in order to properly identify it as an artificial sound. Appropriate knowledge checks may be substituted for Listen checks for this identification.

Melee Properties

Man-catcher (Melee) 1 wpt
A weapon with this property may be used to initiate a grapple. A wielder may use this weapon to attempt to begin a grapple check with a melee attack instead of a melee touch attack. This provokes an attack of opportunity as making a melee touch attack to initiate a grapple does normally (unless the wielder has the Improved Grapple feat.) This special ability differs from ‘Improved Grab’ in that the intention to grapple must be part of this special melee attack. In addition to the means of escaping a normal grapple, a man-catcher may be escaped from by dealing enough damage to break the man-catcher, or making a making a Strength check with a DC equal to the craft check of the weapon.
Special: By spending an additional weapon point the wielder does not need to move into their foe’s space to initiate or maintain this grapple. Further, in addition to the normal options available while in a grapple, the wielder of a man-catcher can attempt to pull their target to the ground (the equivalent of a trip attack, though no attack roll is necessary).
Special: A man catcher (or either 1 wpt or 2) may be built to capture creatures of a particular size category that could not normally grappled by its intended user (such as Huge or Gargantuan creatures), but such a weapon doesn't work on creatures of the wrong size, and suffers a -2 penalty to attack for each size category this is larger than the wielder.

Spikard (Melee) 2.5
A weapon with this property actually has a small firearm mechanism is built into the hilt of the weapon, which can be fired through a smoothed shaft in the middle of the business end. Along the grip of the handle is a miniature firing mechanism, as well as a channel into which the ammunition can be loaded. Loading a spikard requires a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity; the rapid reload feat reduces this to a on free action. A spikard cannot fire its ammunition at range, instead, it discharges it in conjunction with a successful melee attack. Any time a wielder that is proficient with the spikard strikes a foe in melee with a loaded spikard, the mechanism automatically triggers, discharging the ammunition directly into the target of the attack. The target takes damage equal to the base damage of the weapon as well as an additional 1d6 damage, of any sort (chosen at the creation of weapon) No additional attack roll is required.
Special: By spending an additional 1.5 weapon points, this spikard may deal 2d4 damage rather than 1d6 damage.

Reach, Flexible (General) 3 wpt (Light/One-Handed) | 2 wpt (Two-Handed)
A weapon with this property has reach, doubling the natural reach of its wielder, or adding 5 feet to the wielder's natural reach, whichever is greater. Unlike most weapons with reach, this weapon may be used to strike foes within the wielder’s natural reach.

Light Melee Properties

Hands Free (Light Melee) 1 wpt
A weapon with this property is designed to be equipped in a non-traditional “limb,” and may be worn in any conceivable location, such as dangling from a braid beard, or on the end of a tail, strapped to the elbows, or protruding from armor. Such a weapon does not fill a “hand” and may be used in conjunction with other weapons as a part of Multi-weapon fighting. However, such a weapon is difficult to use and provokes an attack of opportunity whenever the wielder attacks with it, similar to attacking with an unarmed attack (Special abilities that allow for unarmed attacks without provoking Attacks of Opportunity apply to these types of weapon as well, such as the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.) A character may not wield anymore than 2 hands-free weapons at an given point.

Spikes(Light Melee) .5 wpt
A weapon with this property is vicious within a grapple, and automatically deals damage with a successful grapple check. Even if a character is wielding multiple weapons with this property, only one weapon may deal damage per successful grapple check.

One-Handed Melee Properties

Fierce Pommel (One-Handed) .5
A one-handed weapon with this property has a particularly effective secondary weapon near its grip. Such a weapon may be used to make an attack as if it were a light weapon, but a -2 penalty to the attack roll. This allows for such an attack to be used within a grapple, or while being swallowed whole, however this attack does not normally benefit from the the Weapon Finesse feat or similar abilities.

Two-Handed Melee Properties

Mount Stabilized (Two-Handed) .5
A weapon with this property may be wielded in one hand while its wielder is mounted.

Thrown Ranged Properties

Tied (Thrown Ranged) 0 wpt
A thrown ranged weapon with this property is generally tethered to its wielder at the wrist. Such a thrown weapon may only be used out to two of its range increments, but may be retrieved as a move action after it has been thrown.

Projectile Ranged Properties

Aquatic (Projectile) 1 wpt
A weapon with this property is specially designed to fire beneath water and to withstand higher levels of tension than a normal weapon. An aquatic projectile weapon is not subject to the normal -2 penalty on ranged attack rolls for every five feet of distance (see ranged attacks underwater, pg. 93 of the DMG), and uses its normal range increment in and out of the water.

Hookshot (Projectile) 1 wpt
A projectile weapon with this property aids greatly in the scaling difficult walls, bridge chasms, or in the escaping buildings, and other tall areas. A hookshot weapon is modified to fire a special, grappling hook-headed metal bolt attached to a strand of thin silk rope. A successful attack at an appropriate target indicates that the grappling hook has hooked onto something, anchoring the rope firmly enough for a character to ascend it with a successful Climb check (DC 15). Failure brings one of three results: 1) The grappling hook simply failed to snag anything. 2) It has lodged but is not secure enough to support a character’s weight. 3) There’s simply nothing there for it to catch onto.
In the first case, the user can simply recoil the rope and try again. In the second case, a successful Intelligence check (DC 10) made before anyone tries to climb reveals the instability. The user can free that grappling hook with a DC 10 Strength Check. (Should anyone try to climb the unstable rope, the grappling hook gives way after the climber has progressed 2d10 feet. Determine damage normally for the resulting fall.) In the third case, retries automatically fail.
A character can easily anchor a grappling hook by hand in a niche or use pitons to secure it on smooth stone. This provides the same aid for descent without the need to fire the weapon.


Here are a few more thoughts...

After doing some exploitation exploration with Explosive Property, I found that on average the Explosive weapon will do a little less than +1 damage per die, so 1 wpt stays with the damage vs. wpt model.

I am still tweaking a Flammable property, that allows for a weapon to be mundanely light on fire, and used to inflict mundane fire damage, similar to the Torch.

There is another property that may be too strong, that allows for constitution damage on a successful critical hit.

Skipard is inspired by the line of weapons in MoE.

I still have some ideas cooking about for some more properties. Trying to sort out all the hidden/disguised and otherwise sneaky weapon properties and make them all have clear rules. I'm also working out rules for a Nets, Spike-Shooters, and Garrotes under this system. May take a bit.

Seerow
2012-03-06, 03:42 PM
Somehow I never saw the above post, just happened to check on here and saw there was a new page that I hadn't viewed before. Oh well.



Explosive weapons seem hard to price, but I'd like to see your math for it being just shy of a full point. I'm getting numbers ranging between .5 and .65, I'd probably round that down to .5 rather than have the property be pretty bad for everyone.


On other properties:

Alchemical Storage interests me, but given it's one use and then you have to reload it (or even 3 with 2 slots), it seems very much not worth it. It honestly seems to me like something that would make a very cool magical property (imagine a blade you can dip into a vat of poison and it absorbs that poison, and proceeds to use it until you load it with something else).

Armor Penetration is nice in theory, but it's basically +2 to hit against almost everything, which is pretty damn good for 1pt.

Barbed is kind of cool. That concentration check is negligible though, it should at least get stacked up with multiple barbed weapons. Also the only real use I see for this is in arrows. Who wants to leave their sword sticking inside someone?

The Destructive Property I really like a lot, I could see that fitting well on hammers and the like. It's a cool situational use property.

Dirt Cheap is in no way worth a full slot. Hell I didn't include anything like it because I didn't think saving a few gold pieces was worth even half a slot.



Most of the properties I do like, but several of them seem overpriced to me. On the other hand Greater Charger seems underpriced, flat damage multipliers are the main thing that leads to over the top melee damage