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Timeless Error
2011-06-12, 10:49 AM
NOTE: Latest version can be found HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216557).

Miscellaneous Changes:
Characters may not have a total amount of class levels beyond 8. After attaining level 8, characters gain a bonus feat for every additional 1,000 XP they gain (idea comes from the E6/E8 system, here (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/E6_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29), except at a faster rate of advancement).
There are no XP penalties for multiclassing.
Characters add their Dexterity modifier to damage with bows.
Use the Pathfinder Combat Maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Combat-Maneuvers) system, except you may add either your Str or Dex modifier to your CMD, but not both. Do not use the PF versions of the Improved Trip, Sunder, etc. feats.
Power Attack can be used with bows. Treat bows as one handed weapons for the purposes of Power Attack.
There is no attack penalty for firing ranged weapons into melee.
Use Action Points as detailed here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm).
Shield bonuses to AC apply to Touch, not Flat Footed, AC.
Spells do not have material components, unless their original 3.5 components cost more than 100 gp.
Negative levels impose a -1 penalty to all d20 rolls, instead of their 3.5 effect.

Skills:
Balance and Tumble are rolled into Acrobatics (Dex)*.
Climb, Jump, and Swim are rolled into Athletics (Str)*.
Concentration is eliminated and replaced with the following check: 1d20 + level + Con modifier.
Appraise, Craft, and Profession are rolled into Craft/Profession (Int).
Bluff (Cha) is unchanged.
Disguise and Forgery are rolled into Fraud (Cha).
Handle Animal and Ride are rolled into Handle Animal (Cha or Dex, depending on whether you're training or riding).
Intimidate (Cha) is unchanged.
Knowledge (religion) and Knowledge (the planes) are rolled into Knowledge (Esoteric) (Int).
Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft are rolled into Knowledge (Mystic) (Int).
Knowledge (dungeoneering) and Knowledge (nature) are rolled into Knowledge (Natural) (Int).
Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), and Knowledge (nobility) are rolled into Knowledge (Social) (Int).
Decipher Script and Speak Language are rolled into Linguistics (Int).
Disable Device, Knowlege (architecture and engineering), and Open Lock are rolled into Mechanics (Int).
Listen, Search, and Spot are rolled into Perception (Wis).
Perform (Cha) is unchanged.
Sleight of Hand (Dex)* is unchanged.
Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Sense Motive are rolled into Social (Cha, except for Sense Motive, which is still Wis-based).
The Diplomacy part of Social is as fixed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9606632&postcount=2) by Rich Burlew.
Hide and Move Silently are rolled into Stealth (Dex)*.
Heal and Survival are rolled into Suvival (Wis).
Use Magic Device (Cha) is unchanged.
Escape Artist and Use Rope are rolled into Use Rope (Dex)*.
*Armor Check Penalty applies, double for swimming.
Skill ranks no longer exist. You can train yourself in a number of skills equal to (class amount) + Int modifier, which allows you to add your level as a bonus to that skill. You gain a +3 bonus to trained skills.
Training yourself in a cross-class skill is exactly the same as training yourself in a class skill, except you gain no +3 bonus.
Craft/Profession, Mechanics, Knowledge, Linguistics, Perform, Sleight of Hand, and Use Magic Device cannot be used untrained.
Synergy bonuses are as follows:
{table=head]A +5 or more training bonus to...|Grants a +2 synergy bonus to...
Acrobatics|Athletics
Athletics|Acrobatics
Bluff|Fraud, Intimidate, Sleight of Hand, Social
Fraud|Bluff
Handle Animal|Wild Empathy (see Druids and Rangers)
Intimidate|Bluff, Social
Knowledge (Esoteric)|Knowledge (Mystic)
Knowledge (Mystic)|Knowledge (Esoteric), Use Magic Device
Knowledge (Natural)|Handle Animal, Survival
Knowledge (Social)|Social
Sleight of Hand|Use Rope
Social|Bluff, Intimidate, Wild Empathy (see Druids and Rangers)
Survival|Knowledge (Natural)
Use Magic Device|Knowledge (Mystic)
Use Rope|Sleight of Hand[/table]
Racial Skill Bonuses: If a race had a bonus to a skill that is now part of a new skill, the race applies that bonus to the entire new skill.
Class Skill Lists: If a class had a skill on its class skill list that is now part of a new skill, the class has the new skill on its class skill list as well.

Feats:
Feats are gained as follows:
2 at level 1.
1 at level 3.
1 at level 5.
1 at level 7.
1 for every 1,000 XP after level 8.
Remember to convert monsters as well as PCs so that they get the right number of feats each.
Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Athletic, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Investigator, Magical Aptitude, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus, and Stealthy are removed. They are replaced with Skill Specialization, which allows you to add your level as an untyped bonus to one skill.
Combat Casting allows you to suffer no penalty for casting defensively.
Add the following feat:
Dabbler [General]
Benefit: You may use all skills untrained.
Normal: Some skills cannot be used untrained.
Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows are merged into Deflect Arrows, and the prerequisite of Improved Unarmed Strike is removed.
Dodge allows you to add half your base attack bonus, rounded up, as a dodge bonus to AC (against all targets). However, the bonus granted by this feat is halved and rounded down if you are wearing medium armor and/or carrying a light shield, and negated if you are wearing heavy armor and/or carrying a heavy shield.
Add the following feat:
Einhander [General]
Benefit: When wielding a one-handed weapon in one hand and holding nothing in the other, you gain a bonus to normal AC, touch AC, and damage rolls equal to one third of your Base Attack Bonus, rounded up.
Special: This feat may be taken as a Fighter bonus feat.
Eschew Materials is removed.
Add the following feat:
Extra Battle Points [General]
Prerequisite: Access to Battle Points.
Benefit: You gain extra Battle Points per day equal to your Base Attack Bonus.
Special: This feat may be taken as a Fighter bonus feat.
Great Fortitude allows you to add one third your level, rounded up, to Fortitude saves.
Add the following feat:
Greater Inspire Courage [General]
Prerequisite: Inspire Courage class feature
Benefit: the bonus to attack and damage granted by your Inspire Courage ability is doubled.
Improved Feint allows you to feint as a swift action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#swiftActions). If you have the Improved Feint feat, a successful feint deals an additional amount of damage equal to your highest Base Attack Bonus.
Iron Will allows you to add one third your level, rounded up, to Will saves.
Lightning Reflexes allows you to add one third your level, rounded up, to Reflex saves.
Natural Spell no longer exists (sorry, no bear-shooting bears anymore).
Martial Weapon Proficiency and Simple Weapon Proficiency grants proficiency with all martial (or simple, respectively) weapons, not just one.
Mobility allows you to add half your level as a bonus to AC versus all opportunity attacks. This bonus stacks with Dodge.
In addition to its standard benefits, Run adds 5 feet to a characterís land speed.
Point Blank Shot is removed and replaced with Ranged Focus (see below). Everything that used to have the prerequisite of Point Blank Shot now has the prerequisite of Ranged Focus.
Precise Shot is removed.
Add the following feat:
Shorten Grip [General]
Prerequisite: Proficient with any reach weapon.
Benefit: When wielding a reach weapon, you may strike opponents adjacent to you as well as those 10 feet away.
Special: A Fighter may take this as one of his/her Fighter bonus feats.
Toughness grants +3 hit points +1 per hit die.
Two-Weapon Fighting is merged with Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and has a prerequisite of Dex 13 instead of Dex 15. The feat allows you to add your full Strength modifier to attacks with an off-hand weapon.
Add the following feat:
Two-Weapon Mastery [General]
Prerequisite: Two-Weapon Fighting
Benefit: The penalties for two weapon fighting are reduced by 1 per 2 points of Base Attack Bonus you have. Penalties may not be reduced beyond 0.
Special: A Fighter may take this as one of his/her Fighter bonus feats.
Weapon Aptitude (the class feature found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11468240)) is available as a feat (fighter bonus) with a prerequisite of BAB +2.
Weapon Finesse has a prerequisite of Dex 13 instead of BAB +1.
Weapon Focus is renamed Melee Focus. It grants a +1 bonus per 4 levels, minimum 1, to all melee attack rolls.
Add the following feat:
Ranged Focus [General]
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus per 4 levels, minimum 1, on all ranged attack rolls.
Weapon Specialization now has the prerequisite of Melee Focus or Ranged Focus, instead of Weapon Focus, and allows you to add half your base attack bonus to damage rolls with a chosen weapon.

Races:
Dwarves are small with Powerful Build (see the half-giant racial feature, here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/halfGiant.htm)). Dwarves gain a +2 racial bonus to Mechanics checks. Dwarves may choose to replace their racial penalty to Charisma with a -2 penalty to Dexterity (this choice must be made at first level, and may not be changed once it is made).
Elves may choose to replace their racial bonus to Dexterity with a bonus to Intelligence, and/or may choose to replace their penalty to Constitution with a -2 penalty to Strength (this choice must be made at first level, and may not be changed once it is made). Elves may cast either the Catís Grace spell or the Foxís Cunning spell, on themselves only, once per day.
Gnomes may choose not to gain spell like abilities. Instead, they may choose to gain +2 to Deception and Social checks (this choice must be made at first level, and may not be changed once it is made). Gnomes gain a +2 racial bonus to Mechanics checks. Gnomes may choose to gain +2 Charisma instead of +2 Constitution, and/or -2 Wisdom instead of -2 Strength (this choice must be made at first level, and may not be changed once it is made).
Half-Elves gain a +2 bonus to Perception checks instead of +1. All action point dice that would normally be rolled as d6ís are instead rolled as d8ís for a Half-Elf.
Halflings gain +2 to a Perform skill of their choice (this choice must be made at first level, and may not be changed once it is made). All action point dice that would normally be rolled as d6ís are instead rolled as d8ís for a Halfing.
Half-Orcs take either a -2 penalty to Int or a -2 penalty to Cha, but not both (this choice must be made at first level, and may not be changed once it is made). Half-Orcs may rage (as the Barbarian ability) once per day or +1 time per day if they have levels in Barbarian. Normal Orcs also gain this ability.
Humans do not gain a bonus feat at level one. Instead, they gain +2 to an ability score of choice (this choice must be made at first level, and may not be changed once it is made). All action point dice that would normally be rolled as d6ís are instead rolled as d8ís for a Human.

Classes:
Barbarian
Barbarians gain either Melee Focus or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
Barbarians gain Tireless Rage at level 8.
Barbarians gain access to Battle Points.
Bard
Bards do not gain 3rd level spells at 7th level. Instead, they gain a single 3rd level Bard spell known, and a single 3rd level spell per day (spell per day not affected by ability scores) at level 8.
Bards gain their suggestion bardic music class feature at level 7.
Cleric
Clerics have spells known from the Cleric spell list equal to 3 x the Sorcererís spells known (but they still prepare spells). Since Sorcerers learn spells of a new level a level later than other classes, treat the Cleric as having 1 2nd-level spell known at 3rd level, and 1 3rd-level spell known at 5th level. Additionally, Clerics gain Cure (or Inflict) Minor Wounds and Cure (or Inflict) Light Wounds as bonus spells known at level 1, Cure (or Inflict) Moderate Wounds as a bonus spell known at level 3, and Cure (or Inflict) Serious Wounds as a bonus spell known at level 5.
Clerics never gain spells of a level higher than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level (note that 8th-level effects are not spells, and thus are not subject to this rule).
At level 8, a Cleric may learn one 8th level effect from the Cleric 8th-level list. The Cleric may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Druid
Druids have spells known from the Druid spell list equal to 3 x the Sorcererís spells known (but they still prepare spells). Since Sorcerers learn spells of a new level a level later than other classes, treat the Druid as having 1 2nd-level spell known at 3rd level, and 1 3rd-level spell known at 5th level. Additionally, Druids gain Summon Natureís Ally I as bonus spells known at level 1, Summon Natureís Ally II as a bonus spell known at level 3, and Summon Natureís Ally III as a bonus spell known at level 5.
Druids gain Wild Shape 1/day at level 4, Wild Shape 2/day at level 6, and Wild Shape 3/day at level 8.
Use the Pathfinder Wild Shape Rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid#TOC-Wild-Shape-Su-) for the Druid Wild Shape ability.
Druids never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level (note that 8th-level effects are not spells, and thus are not subject to this rule).
At level 8, a Druid may learn one 8th level effect from the Druid 8th-level list. The Druid may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Fighter
Fighters gain either Melee or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
Add Knowledge (Social), Perception, and Social to the Fighter class skill list.
Tough it Out: A number of times per day equal to half the Fighterís highest Base Attack Bonus, rounded down, a Fighter of second level or higher who has taken damage may immediately attempt a Fortitude save (DC equal to 5 + damage dealt). If successful, the Fighter converts the damage to non lethal damage.
Armor Skill: At 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th level, a Fighter reduces the Armor Check penalty from wearing armor by 1, to a minimum of 0.
Grit: At level 3, when a Fighter succeeds on a Fortitude save, and he or she would normal suffer a partial effect (such as half damage), he or she instead suffers no effect.
Uncanny Dodge: Fighters gain this class feature (see the Barbarian feature) at level 4.
Zeal: At level 5, a when a Fighter succeeds on a Will save, and he or she would normal suffer a partial effect (such as half damage), he or she instead suffers no effect.
Evasion: At level 7, when a Fighter succeeds on a Reflex save, and he or she would normal suffer a partial effect (such as half damage), he or she instead suffers no effect.
Improved Uncanny Dodge: Fighters gain this class feature (see the Barbarian feature) at level 8.
Fighters gain access to Battle Points.
Light-Armor Fighter Variant:
A Fighter may choose to lose proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields, and the Armor Training class feature, in exchange for:
A) Dodge as a bonus feat at level 1.
B) Acrobatics and Stealth as class skills.
C) Starting at level 2, a Light-Armor Fighter may add either his/her Intelligence or Wisdom modifier as a dodge bonus to AC (minimum 1).
D) Starting at level 6, a Light-Armor Fighter may add either his/her Intelligence or Wisdom modifier (minimum 1) as a bonus to two of the following: Fortitude saves, Reflex saves, Will saves, Acrobatics checks, or Initiative checks.
Monk
Use jiriku's Monk as fixed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122).
Monks gain either Melee or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
Monks gain access to Battle Points.
Paladin
Paladins gain either Melee or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
The Paladinís Smite Evil is as follows: A number of times per day equal to half your Paladin level, rounded down, minimum one, you may add twice your Charisma bonus (minimum 1) as a bonus to an attack roll and a number of d6ís to damage equal to your Paladin level against an evil creature. If you accidentally use a Smite Evil attempt against a non-evil creature, there is no effect, but it still counts against your Smite Evil attempts for the day.
Paladin spells are Charisma based, not Wisdom based.
Tough it Out: A number of times per day equal to half the Paladinís highest Base Attack Bonus, rounded down, a Paladin of second level or higher who has taken damage may immediately attempt a Fortitude save (DC equal to 5 + damage dealt). If successful, the Paladin converts the damage to non lethal damage.
Zeal: At level 7, a when a Paladin succeeds on a Will save, and he or she would normal suffer a partial effect (such as half damage), he or she instead suffers no effect.
At 8th level, a Paladin adds his/her Charisma bonus to damage rolls.
Paladins gain access to Battle Points.
Ranger
Rangers gain either Melee or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
Rangers may choose to give up the Track feat, and instead gain Trapfinding and Disable Device as a class skill.
Rangers have the following combat style option, in addition to two-weapon fighting and archery.
Charging:
At level 2, a Ranger adds 1d8 to his/her total damage on a charge.
At level 6, a Ranger adds 2d8 to his/her total damage on a charge instead of 1d8.
Rangers gain access to Battle Points.
Rogue
Rogues have a d8 hit die instead of a d6 hit die.
Rogues gain either Flamboyant Action, Insightful Blow, or Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat at level 1.
At level 2, a Rogue gains either Catís Grace, Eagleís Splendor, or Foxís Cunning once per day.
At level 4, a Rogue gains Silence once per day.
At level 6, a Rogue gains an additional use per day of the spell like ability he or she selected at level 2.
At level 8, as long as both the Rogue and at least one ally threaten the same opponent, the rogue may treat that opponent as flanked.
Sorcerer
Sorcerers have a d6 hit die instead of a d4 hit die.
Sorcerers never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level (note that 8th-level effects are not spells, and thus are not subject to this rule).
Use Pathfinder Sorcerer bloodlines as detailed here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer#TOC-Bloodline). 9th level bloodline powers are instead gained at 8th level.
At level 8, a Sorcerer learns one 8th level effect from the Sorcerer/Wizard 8th-level list. The Sorcerer may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Wizard
Wizards can have spells in their spell book equal to 3 x the Sorcererís spells known (but they still prepare spells). Since Sorcerers learn spells of a new level a level later than other classes, treat the wizard as having 1 2nd-level spell in his/her spell book at 3rd level, and 1 3rd-level spell in his/her spell book at 5th level. Wizards are capable of learning the spells in one spell book well enough to cast them, but no more than that.
Wizards gain a bonus feat at levels 4 and 8, but not at level 5.
Wizards never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level (note that 8th-level effects are not spells, and thus are not subject to this rule).
There are no experience penalties for multiclassing.
At level 4, a wizard may choose one spell in his/her spellbook. This choice of spell cannot be changed once it is made. The wizard may cast this spell spontaneously, like a Sorcerer, or a good Cleric casting a cure spell. The wizard may choose another spell to cast spontaneously at level 7.
At level 8, a wizard may scribe one 8th level effect from the Sorcerer/Wizard 8th-level list into his/her spell book. The wizard may cast this 8th level effect once per day.

Equipment:
The club deals 1d8 damage instead of 1d6, or 1d6 for small characters.
The shortbow deals 1d8 damage instead of 1d6, or 1d6 for small characters.
The longbow deals 1d10 damage instead of 1d8, or 1d8 for small characters.
The kama has a critical range of 18-20/x2. In addition, you can make a disarm attack with a kama without taking a penalty to your disarm attempt for wielding a light weapon.
You do not take a penalty to your disarm attempt when wielding a nunchaku, and you get an additional +4 bonus to disarm checks. Additionally, you can use a nunchaku to make trip attempts.
You do not take a penalty to your disarm attempt when wielding a sai, and you get an additional +4 bonus to disarm checks. A sai has a critical range of 19-20/x2.
Sianghams are simple weapons instead of exotic weapons.
A bastard sword deals 2d6 damage instead of 1d10, or 1d10 for small characters. When wielding a bastard sword, you may add 1.5 x your Strength modifier to damage rolls as if you were wielding it 2-handed. You may additionally treat it as a 2-handed weapon for the purposes of determining Power Attack damage.
A dwarven waraxe deals 1d12 damage instead of 1d10, or 1d10 for small characters. When wielding a dwarven waraxe, you may add 1.5 x your Strength modifier to damage rolls as if you were wielding it 2-handed. You may additionally treat it as a 2-handed weapon for the purposes of determining Power Attack damage.
The orc double axe deals 1d10/1d10 damage instead of 1d8/1d8, or 1d8/1d8 for small characters.
The dire flail deals 1d10/1d10 damage instead of 1d8/1d8, or 1d8/1d8 for small characters.
The gnome hooked hammer deals 1d10/1d8 damage instead of 1d8/1d6, or 1d8/1d6 for small characters.
The dwarven urgrosh deals 1d10/1d8 damage instead of 1d8/1d6, or 1d8/1d6 for small characters.
The two-bladed sword deals 1d10/1d10 damage instead of 1d8/1d8, or 1d8/1d8 for small characters.
Light shields grant a shield bonus to AC equal to 1/4 the userís highest Base Attack Bonus, rounded up.
Heavy shields grant a shield bonus to AC equal to (1/2 the userís highest Base Attack Bonus) + 1, rounded up.

Battle Points:
Certain classes have access to battle points. These classes gain a number of battle points per day equal to their highest base attack bonus times three. These are abilities that you can apply to singular instances where you would have to make a roll or use a defense. Battle points require no action to use.
Battle Points are divided into offensive stunts and defensive stunts. Offensive stunts effect your actions on your turn (usually an attack), whereas defensive stunts effect you when it is not your turn.
You may use a maximum number of battle points on one Stunt equal to half your base attack bonus, rounded up. For example, a 5th level Fighter wants to make an attack roll and spend as many battle points as he can (in this case, 3). He could use a Three Battle Point Offensive Stunt, a Two Battle Point Offensive Stunt combined with a One Battle Point Offensive Stunt, or three One Battle Point Offensive Stunts. You can apply the same Stunt twice. For example, the same 5th level Fighter could use 3 Battle Points to give himself 45% miss chance against one attack by using the same One Battle Point Defensive Stunt 3 times.
One Battle Point Offensive Stunts
You gain a +1 bonus to one attack roll (to a maximum of +2 by spending 2 battle points at level 3+).
You gain a +2 bonus to one damage roll (to a maximum of +6 by spending 3 battle points at level 5+).
You gain a +2 bonus to your CMB for one round (to a maximum of +6 by spending 3 battle points at level 5+).
One Battle Point Defensive Stunts
You gain +1 AC against one attack (to a maximum of +2 by spending 2 battle points at level 3+).
You gain DR 2/- against one attack (no cap).
You gain 15% miss chance against one attack (to a maximum of 45% by spending 3 battle points at level 5+).
You gain a +2 bonus to your CMD for one round (to a maximum of +6 by spending 3 battle points at level 5+).
You gain a +4 bonus to one save against a fear effect (to a maximum of +8 by spending 2 battle points at level 3+).
You gain a +2 bonus to one saving throw (to a maximum of +6 by spending 3 battle points at level 5+).
Two Battle Point Offensive Stunts
Automatically confirm a critical hit.
Choose whether or not you are spending battle points on this stunt before you make your attack roll. On a successful attack roll, your opponent is dazed until next turn if they fail their Fortitude save (10 + 1/2 BAB rounded down + Str modifier).
Choose whether or not you are spending battle points on this stunt before you make your attack roll. On a successful attack roll, your opponent must make a Fort save each round (10 + 1/2 BAB rounded down + Str modifier) or take a -5 foot penalty to speed. This condition lasts until the subject of the condition regains hit points, either by mundane or magical means. You may not spend multiple battle points to increase the speed penalty for this stunt.
Ignore an opponentís armor bonus to AC for one attack.
Ignore an opponentís shield bonus to AC for one attack.
For one attack, treat a light or one handed weapon as a two handed weapon for the purposes of determining how much of your Str modifier you add to damage, and the damage bonus Power Attack grants.
Two Battle Point Defensive Stunts
When an enemy within your reach that you threaten attacks an ally, they provoke an attack of opportunity from you.
You cannot be flanked until beginning of next turn.
You gain evasion on one Reflex save. If you have evasion already, you gain improved evasion.
You gain uncanny dodge against one attack roll made against you. If you have uncanny dodge already, you gain improved uncanny dodge.
Immediately after being hit by an attack, you heal yourself for (1d8 + your Con modifier) damage points cured.
You may negate one critical hit or sneak attack.
Three Battle Point Offensive Stunts
Choose whether or not you are spending battle points on this stunt before you make your attack roll. If your attack is successful, it overcomes damage reduction.
Choose whether or not you are spending battle points on this stunt before you make your attack roll. If your attack is successful, your opponent must make a Fort save (10 + 1/2 BAB rounded down + Str modifier) or become fatigued.
Choose whether or not you are spending battle points on this stunt before you make your attack roll. On a successful attack roll, your opponent is dazed until next turn if they fail their Fortitude save (10 + 1/2 BAB rounded down + Str modifier).
Three Battle Point Defensive Stunts
Against one attack, you may use your normal AC instead of your touch AC.
Against one attack, you may use your normal AC instead of your flat footed AC.
You may replace a Fortitude save with an Athletics check.
Four Battle Point Offensive Stunts
For one round, you can move and attack normally, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, slow, and web. You automatically succeed on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.
Gain an extra attack at your highest Base Attack Bonus.
Gain two extra attacks at your lowest Base Attack Bonus.
Four Battle Point Defensive Stunts
You may replace a Reflex save with an Acrobatics check.
You may replace a Will save with a Fortitude save.

Spells:
Alter Self no longer exists.
Blindness/Deafness is split into two spells, Blindness and Deafness. Deafness remains at its current spell level, but Blindness is an 8th level effect for all classes that have it on their list.
Color Spray no longer exists.
Daze no longer exists.
Deep Slumber deals 2d6/level nonlethal damage to 10 HD of creatures.
Dispel Magic is an 8th-level effect for all classes that have it on their spell list (and not available to Bards).
Entangle is a 2nd level spell for all classes that have it on their spell list.
Ghoul Touch causes the main target to become nauseated instead of paralyzed.
Glitterdust no longer exists.
Grease only coats one 5-ft square.
Hold Person reduces the targetís speed to 0 feet and causes them to take a -2 penalty to attack rolls and AC, but does not paralyze them.
Rope Trick no longer exists.
Sleep deals 2d6/level nonlethal damage, instead of putting the target to sleep.
Touch of Idiocy deals 1d6 Intelligence, Wisdom, OR Charisma damage, not 1d6 Intelligence, Wisdom, AND Charisma damage.
Web is a 3rd level spell for all classes that have it on their spell list.
Wind Wall causes ranged arrow and bolt attacks to take -10 penalty on their attack rolls, and other ranged attacks to take a -6 penalty on their attack rolls, instead of the current rules for deflecting ranged attacks.

Eighth Level Effects:
Cleric 8th-level effects:
Blindness
Control Water
Cure Critical Wounds
Discern Lies
Dispel Magic
Divination
Divine Power
Freedom of Movement
Giant Vermin
Greater Magic Weapon
Imbue with Spell Ability
Inflict Critical Wounds
Poison
Restoration
Sending
Summon Monster IV
Druid 8th-level effects:
Antiplant Shell
Blight
Control Water
Dispel Magic
Flame Strike
Freedom of Movement
Giant Vermin
Ice Storm
Repel Vermin
Rusting Grasp
Spike Stones
Summon Natureís Ally IV
Sorcerer/Wizard 8th-level effects:
Arcane Eye
Blindness
Confusion
Crushing Despair
Dispel Magic
Fire Shield
Ice Storm
Lesser Geas
Lesser Globe of Invulnerability
Minor Creation
Remove Curse
Solid Fog
Stoneskin
Summon Monster IV
Wall of Fire
Wall of Ice

Non-Core Classes, Adjusted:
Player's Handbook II:
Beguilers never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level.
At level 8, a Beguiler may learn one 8th level effect, which will be a Sorcerer/Wizard 8th-level effect from the schools of illusion or enchantment. The Beguiler may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Dragon Shaman gains a Full Base Attack Bonus.
Dragon Shamans gain either Melee Focus or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
Dragon Shamans gain access to Battle Points.
Duskblades gain a bonus feat at levels 4 and 8.
Knights gain either Melee Focus or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
Knights gain a good Fortitude save in addition to their good Will save.
Tough it Out: A number of times per day equal to half the Knightís highest Base Attack Bonus, rounded down, a Knight who has taken damage may immediately attempt a Fortitude save (DC equal to 5 + damage dealt). If successful, the Knight converts the damage to non lethal damage.
Zeal: At level 3, a when a Knight succeeds on a Will save, and he or she would normal suffer a partial effect (such as half damage), he or she instead suffers no effect.
At level 4, you may add your Charisma bonus to saves.
Grit: At level 6, when a Knight succeeds on a Fortitude save, and he or she would normal suffer a partial effect (such as half damage), he or she instead suffers no effect.
At level 8, you may add your Charisma bonus to damage rolls.
Knights gain access to Battle Points.
Complete Adventurer
The Ninja is replaced with the Lurk from Complete Psionic, which is in turn replaced with the Psychic Rogue (see Complete Psionic, below). Alternatively, just use a Rogue.
Scouts gain access to Battle Points.
Spellthieves have the Bardís spells known and spells per day progression, but still choose spells only from the abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation schools of the Sorcerer/Wizard list.
Complete Warrior
Hexblades gain either Melee Focus or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
Hexblades gain a good Will save.
At level 1, Hexblades may add their Charisma bonus to AC when wearing light or no armor.
Hexblades gain the Greater Hexbladeís Curse class feature at level 8 instead of level 7.
Hexblades gain a bonus feat at levels 4 and 8.
If you have the Playerís Handbook II, replace the Summon Familiar class feature with the Dark Companion class feature in Chapter 2.
Hexblades gain access to Battle Points.
The Samurai is beyond hope, and is eliminated completely. It is easily replaceable with a Fighter or a refluffed Psychic Warrior or Ardent.
Swashbucklers gain either Melee Focus or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
Swashbucklers gain a good Reflex save in addition to their good Fortitude save.
Swashbucklers lose their Grace class feature.
Swashbucklers gain their Dodge Bonus class feature at levels 4 and 8.
Swashbucklers lose their Improved Flanking class feature.
Swashbucklers may use the either their Dexterity, Intelligence, or Wisdom modifier for attack. At level three, the Swashbuckler may also modify his/her damage rolls with the chosen statistic. This replaces the Swashbuckler's Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike class features.
At second level, a Swashbuckler deals an extra 1d6 damage on a successful attack to any enemy who the Swashbuckler is adjacent to, without having any allies adjacent to the enemy. This damage increases to 1d8 at level four, 1d10 at level six, and 1d12 at level eight. (Semi-stolen from Samm's Swashbuckler fix, found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155012).)
Swashbucklers gain access to Battle Points.
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Psions gain their bonus feat at levels 4 and 8 instead of level 5.
Psions never gain powers of a level beyond 3rd, nor may they augment their powers with beyond 6 power points, unless using the Overchannel feat.
At level 8, a Psion may learn one 8th level effect from the Sorcerer/Wizard 8th-level list. The Psion may manifest this 8th level effect once per day.
Psychic Warriors may not augment their powers with beyond 6 power points, unless using the Overchannel feat.
Psychic Warriors do not gain 3rd level powers at 7th level. Instead, they gain a single 3rd level Psychic Warrior power known at level 8.
Soulknifes no longer exist. The Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) Psychic Warrior alternate class feature replaces them.
Wilders gain Volatile Mind (2 power points) at level 8.
Wilders never gain powers of a level beyond 3rd, nor may they augment their powers with beyond 6 power points, unless the wilder is using Wild Surge or the Overchannel feat.
At level 8, a Wilder may learn one 8th level effect from the Sorcerer/Wizard 8th-level list. The Wilder may manifest this 8th level effect once per day.
Complete Psionic
The Ardent gains divine grace at level 6, but uses his/her Wisdom bonus instead of Charisma bonus.
Ardents gain a new psionic mantle at level 8.
Ardents never gain powers of a level beyond 3rd, nor may they augment their powers with beyond 6 power points, unless using the Overchannel feat.
At level 8, an Ardent may learn one 8th level effect from the Cleric 8th-level list. The Ardent may manifest this 8th level effect once per day.
The Divine Mind is eliminated, as it is both weak and overlaps with the Ardent.
The Lurk is replaced with the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). The Psychic Rogue gains a bonus psionic feat at 4th and 8th level.
Psychic rogues may not augment their powers with beyond 6 power points, unless using the Overchannel feat.
Psychic Rogues gain a single 3rd level Psychic Rogue power known at level 8.
Dragon Compendium
Battle Dancers gain either Melee Focus or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
The Battle Dancerís dance of the springing tiger is moved up to level 6, and itís prerequisite is training in Acrobatics.
The Battle Dancer's AC bonus increases to +2 at level 8.
Battle Dancers gain access to Battle Points.
The Death Masterís alignment prerequisite is changed from any evil to any non-good. The class gains Master of the Dead at level 6 instead of level 5, and Sustenance of the Dead is moved from level 10 to level 8.
At level 8, a Death Master may scribe one 8th level effect from the Sorcerer/Wizard 8th-level effect list that is from the Necromancy school into his/her spell book. The Death Master may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Jesters gain Buffoonery at level 8, with the prerequisite of being trained in Perform (comedy).
Jesters do not gain 3rd level spells at 7th level. Instead, they gain a single 3rd level Jester spell known, and a single 3rd level spell per day (spell per day not affected by ability scores) at level 8.
The Mountebackís Deceptive Attack ability deals +1d6 damage at 1st level, +2d6 at 3rd level, +3d6 at 5th level, and +4d6 at 7th level (which means that Deceptive Attack is gained at level 1). Additionally, Mountebacks gain a bonus feat at 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th level.
The Savant uses the Bardís spells per day table. Savants still select spells from the Savant spell list, and they still prepares their spells.
Savants gain one 1st level Savant divine spell known, and one per day, at level 8.
Savants gain a bonus feat at level 6.
Sha'irs are bizarre, unpredictable, and hard to regulate power-wise. They are eliminated completely and replaced with a spellcaster of your choice.
Urban Druids are also eliminated. To me, they just make no sense at all.
Miniatures Handbook
Favored Souls use Charisma to determine both spells per day and spell Difficulty Classes.
Favored souls gain their 1st energy resistance at 4th level instead of 5th level, and their 2nd at 8th level instead of 10th level.
Favored Souls never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level.
At level 8, a Favored Soul learns one 8th level effect from the Cleric 8th-level list. The Favored Soul may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Replace the Healer with the first 8 levels of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133118) class.
Healers never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level.
At level 8, a Healer learns one 8th level effect from the Cleric 8th-level list. The Healer may cast this 8th level effect once per day.

Use the first 8 levels of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186681) class for the Marshal.
Use the first 8 levels of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131346) class for the Warmage.
Warmages never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level.
At level 8, a Warmage learns one 8th level effect from the Sorcerer/Wizard 8th-level list. The Warmage may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
[Much credit goes to T.G. Oskar for supplying the awesome class fixes that I linked to for the Healer, Marshal and Warmage.
Complete Arcane
Warlocks gain 4 + Int modifier trained skills instead of 2.
Warlocks have a number of Invocations known equal to their Warlock class level.
For Warmage modifications, see the entry in the Miniatures Handbook, above.
Wu Jen gain their second Spell Secret at 8th level.
Wu Jen never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level.
At level 8, a Wu Jen learns one 8th level effect from the Sorcerer/Wizard 8th-level list. The Wu Jen may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Complete Divine
For Favored Soul modifications, see the entry in the Miniatures Handbook, above.
Shugenjas never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level.
At level 8, a Shugenja learns one 8th level effect from the Cleric 8th-level list. The Shugenja may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Spirit Shamans never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level.
At level 8, a Spirit Shaman learns one 8th level effect from either the Cleric or the Druid 8th-level list. The Spirit Shaman may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Spirit Shamans gain Spirit Form at level 8.
Tome of Magic
Binders are unchanged.
Make the changes to shadowcasters detailed here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/3273239-post2.html).
Use Kyeudo's Truenamer fix, found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176665).
Dungeonscape
The Factotum is unchanged.
Tome of Battle
The Crusader and Swordsage are unchanged.
Warblade bonus feats are gained at 4th and 8th level instead of at 5th level.
Dragon Magic
The Dragonfire Adept is unchanged.
Magic of Incarnum
The Incarnate and Totemist are unchanged.
Use Person_Man's Soulborn as fixed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119121).
Pathfinder Advanced Playerís Guide
The Alchemist is unchanged.
Instead of the Antipaladin class, take the Paladin (see above) and make the changes detailed here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) under Paladin of Slaughter.
Cavaliers gain either Melee Focus or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
Cavaliers have trained skills equal to 4 + Int modifier, instead of 2.
Add Knowledge history/local/nobility), Perception, and Social to the Cavalier class skill list.
Tough it Out: A number of times per day equal to half the Cavalierís highest Base Attack Bonus, rounded down, a Cavalier who has taken damage may immediately attempt a Fortitude save (DC equal to damage dealt). If successful, the Cavalier converts the damage to non lethal damage.
Armor Skill: At 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th level, the armor check penalty a Cavalier suffers from wearing armor is decreased by 1, to a minimum of 0.
Grit: At level 3, when a Cavalier succeeds on a Fortitude save, and he or she would normal suffer a partial effect (such as half damage), the Cavalier instead suffers no effect.
At 4th level, a Cavalier speed is no longer reduced while wearing armor.
Zeal: At level 5, a when a Cavalier succeeds on a Will save, and he or she would normal suffer a partial effect (such as half damage), he or she instead suffers no effect.
Cavaliers gain access to Battle Points.
The Inquisitor is unchanged.
Oracles never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level.
At level 8, an Oracle learns one 8th level effect from either the Cleric 8th-level list. The Oracle may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Summoners never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level. They DO, however, gain access to Summon Monster IV as usual.
At level 8, a Summoner learns one 8th level effect from the Sorcerer/Wizard 8th-level list, from the Conjuration school. The Summoner may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Witches never gain spells of a higher level than third. Additionally, all spell effects that scale with level cap at a maximum of 6th level.
At level 8, a Witch learns one 8th level effect from either the Druid or the Sorcerer/Wizard 8th-level list. The Witch may cast this 8th level effect once per day.
Witch familiars can store spells equal to 3 x the Sorcererís spells known. Since Sorcerers learn spells of a new level a level later than other classes, treat the Witch as having 1 2nd-level spell in his/her familiar at 3rd level, and 1 3rd-level spell in his/her spell book at 5th level.
Pathfinder Ultimate Magic
The Magus can have spells in his/her spell book equal to 3 x the Sorcererís spells known (but he or she still prepares spells).
The Magus does not gain 3rd level spells at 7th level. Instead, he or she gains a single 3rd level Magus spell known, and a single 3rd level spell per day (spell per day not affected by ability scores) at level 8.

Change Log:
6/13/11:
1) Revised the material spell component rules.
2) Eliminated the rule that allowed characters to add half their BAB to AC.
3) Gave several classes Weapon Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
4) Pulled Forgery out of Linguistics and Disguise out of Deception (which went back to being called Bluff) and rolled them into Fraud (Cha).
5) Switched Jump from Acrobatics to Athletics.
6) Made minor changes to Skill Synergy Bonuses.
7) Rolled Disable Device, Knowledge (architecture and engineering), and Open Lock into Mechanics (Int).
8) Gave Dwarves and Gnomes a +2 racial bonus to Mechanics checks.
6/14/11:
9) Added Non-Core Classes, Adjusted section with Player's Handbook II classes.
6/18/11:
10) Changed Smite Evil mechanic.
6/19/11:
11) Added classes from Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Complete Psionic to the Non Core Classes, Adjusted section.
6/21/11:
12) Added Knowledge (Social) - Social skill synergy bonus.
6/24/11:
13) Removed the Flamboyant Action, Insightful Blow, and Zen Strike feat chains, and removed Improved/Oversized Weapon Finesse.
7/20/11:
14) Relocated the "Daze" Battle Point Stunt from the Two-Point Offensive section to the Three-Point Offensive section.
7/24/11:
15) Modified the Mobility feat.
16) Added Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes feats.
17) Modified Combat Concentration (which is now called Combat Casting again), Dodge, and Toughness to exclude save bonuses.
7/29/11:
18) Put a Two Battle Point cap on the ability to boost attack bonus, AC, and saves vs. fear effects from the list of One Battle Point Stunts.
19) Put a 3 Battle Point cap on the other One Battle Point Stunts, with the exception of the Damage Reduction Defensive Stunt.
20) Added clarification to the speed-decreasing Two Battle Point Offensive Stunt.
21) Changed the Dodge feat to avoid ridiculous AC by way of combining the feat with heavy armor and shield usage.
22) Changed the Weapon Focus feat, and split it into the two feats "Melee Focus" and "Ranged Focus."
23) Monks now gain access to Battle Points.
24) Psychic Warriors no longer have their bonus feat progression, instead gaining access to Battle Points.
25) Added the Swashbuckler to the Non-Core Classes, Revised, list with several modifications.
26) Added classes from Dragon Compendium, Miniatures Handbook, Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Tome of Magic, Dungeonscape, Tome of Battle, Dragon Magic, Magic of Incarnum, and the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide and Ultimate Magic.
7/31/11:
27) Modified the Wind Wall spell.
28) Modified the Melee Focus and Ranged Focus feats.
29) All classes with access to Battle Points and a Full Base Attack Bonus gain either Melee Focus or Ranged Focus as a bonus feat at level 1.
30) Changed the levels on which the Fighter class gains its Armor Skill class feature.
31) Added the Light-Armor Fighter Variant class.
8/1/11:
32) Modified the Combat Maneuver system in the Mechanics section.
33) Changed the Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Witch, and Magus spells known allotments.
8/3/11:
34) Modified the Psychic Warrior in the Non-Core Classes, Revised section.
35) Removed the 3 Battle Point Offensive Stunts that allow you to attack a target's touch or flat-footed AC instead of its normal AC, due to overlap with other stunts.
8/5/11:
36) Modified the Psychic Rogue.
37) Relocated Warblade bonus feats.
8/14/11:
38) Made changes to the Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows feats.
39) Removed Point Blank Shot and replaced it with Ranged Focus.
40) Modified the Improved Feint feat.
41) Changed/clarified the Tough it Out class feature of the Fighter, Paladin, Knight, and Cavalier.
8/21/11:
42) Removed at-will 0-level spells.
43) Increased rate at which feats are gained above level 8.
44) Changed the key skill for Craft/Profession.
8/23/11:
45) Added the Weapon Aptitude feat.
8/24/11:
46) Merged Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

DoomHat
2011-06-12, 09:39 PM
A pretty interesting streamlining of things.
Though for me personally, a swapping around of numbers isn't spicy enough for me to really be all that interested in sampling. I'm mostly posting to give this thread a bump in the hopes that someone useful might comment on your ideas.

erikun
2011-06-12, 11:26 PM
There are no material components for spells.
You'll probably want to keep expensive material components, unless you like the idea of free Resurrections and Animate Dead.


Skill ranks no longer exist. You can train yourself in a number of skills equal to (class amount) + Int modifier, which allows you to add your level as a bonus to that skill. At level 1, you gain a +3 bonus to class skills you are trained in.
Training yourself in a cross-class skill is now exactly the same as training yourself in a class skill, except you gain no +3 bonus at level 1.
So does the bonus increase at higher levels? Or do you choose to train in skills again as you level up?

To put it simply: Assume I have a 7th level character who is trained in Deception but not trained in Intimidate. 10 Charisma, no other bonuses. What bonus would I have in the Deception and Intimidate skills?



I would also be concerned about modifying AC too much. So far, I see a potential +9 AC above standard (+4 from the BAB addition, +4 from the Dodge feat, +3 from the Large Shield AC increase). Conversely, I only see Weapon Focus adding anything new to attack rolls. Any kind of a fighter with Dodge and a Large Shield would be nearly untouchable at 8th level... except to spellcasters, of course.

Timeless Error
2011-06-13, 06:19 AM
Yay! Replies!


You'll probably want to keep expensive material components, unless you like the idea of free Resurrections and Animate Dead.

Hm...since there is a cap on level, there will be no Resurrections. However, I'll change it to the following:


Spells do not have material components, unless their original 3.5 components cost more than 100 gp.


So does the bonus increase at higher levels? Or do you choose to train in skills again as you level up?

To put it simply: Assume I have a 7th level character who is trained in Deception but not trained in Intimidate. 10 Charisma, no other bonuses. What bonus would I have in the Deception and Intimidate skills?

It scales with level. Your training bonus for being trained in a class skill is your level + 3, and being trained in a cross class skill allows you to add your level without the + 3 bonus. The 7th level character you mentioned would have a +10 Deception bonus and a +0 Intimidate bonus.


I would also be concerned about modifying AC too much. So far, I see a potential +9 AC above standard (+4 from the BAB addition, +4 from the Dodge feat, +3 from the Large Shield AC increase). Conversely, I only see Weapon Focus adding anything new to attack rolls. Any kind of a fighter with Dodge and a Large Shield would be nearly untouchable at 8th level... except to spellcasters, of course.

That's a very good point (and then there's Battle Points on top, which can enhance AC quite a bit). I'll eliminate the BAB addition. Maybe full BAB classes get Weapon Focus as a bonus feat at level 1?

erikun
2011-06-13, 07:12 AM
Your training bonus for being trained in a class skill is your level + 3, and being trained in a cross class skill allows you to add your level without the + 3 bonus.
You might want to add a Skill Training feat then, for characters who want to become trained in a particular skill after 1st level. You currently have no mechanic to do so.


I'll eliminate the BAB addition. Maybe full BAB classes get Weapon Focus as a bonus feat at level 1?
That would be quite attractive! Although I'd wonder that some full BAB classes (Warblade, Crusader) might be getting a bit too much from the deal.

Timeless Error
2011-06-13, 08:11 AM
You might want to add a Skill Training feat then, for characters who want to become trained in a particular skill after 1st level. You currently have no mechanic to do so.

Skill Training [General]
Prerequisite: Intelligence 13, must have practiced skill in question (as determined by DM)
Benefit: You become trained in one skill of your choice, whether it is a class skill or not.

How's that?


hat would be quite attractive! Although I'd wonder that some full BAB classes (Warblade, Crusader) might be getting a bit too much from the deal.

Instead of making it a general rule that all classes with full BAB get Weapon Focus, I think I'll just note specific classes that get this benefit (to be exact, the Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, and Ranger get it, but martial adepts don't).

Gamer Girl
2011-06-13, 01:39 PM
Skills I just do not get rolling vaguely related skills into one skill. Maybe you can tell me why you even like this idea in general?

--Balance, Jump, and Tumble are rolled into Acrobatics, so everyone that can jump can also tumble and balance ? A kangaroo can jump but can also walk on a tight rope? A halfling that tumbles around on the ground can also make a standing high jump?
--Climb and Swim are rolled into Athletics, so if you can swim you can climb? So all fish and aquatic life forms can climb rocks and trees? And anyone who can climb a tree can also swim?
--Listen, Search, and Spot are rolled into Perception, this one bugs me the most. Not everyone has perfect senses! Some people have good eyesight, and some people have good hearing, but rarely both. The average eagle eyed sharpshooter does not also hear pins drop, let alone have the ability to search.


1.If you lessen the number of skills, why don't you lessen the number of skill points? Like cut them in half? Why cut down the number of skills and then use the Core skill points? It's bad enough in core that characters can get +10, +20 in skills in no time...but you want to make that even easier and give them 'bonus skills' too. Or do you want all characters to have all skills maxed out so that they automatically make all skill checks and never have to roll?

2.Do you not think it's odd that a elf living and climbing the trees in a jungle 100 miles from any lake or ocean as also a perfect Olympic class swimming despite the fact she has never been in the water?

Phosphate
2011-06-13, 01:45 PM
This looks like a system where, given how concentrated skills are (so much so that you're basically raising 2/3 ranks per skill point spent) and how low you get with spellcasting (level 8 means level 4 spells, don't forget), skillmonkeys are kings.

Which is AWESOME.

Actually, if I was you, I would add the Factotum to your allowed classes, and laugh as everybody picks it. Especially as the exp+feat thing completely solves his feat starvation problem.

Vladislav
2011-06-13, 02:04 PM
I have been running a consolidated skill system in my games for years, so I believe I'm qualified to comment on this part.

* I don't agree with Spot/Listen/Search being all one skill, as the former two are passive and the latter proactive. Spot/Listen = Perception, and leaving Search alone is what I'd do.

* Acrobatics and Athletics - you may want to consolidate the Dex-based skills (Tumble, Escape Artist, Balance) into Acrobatics, and Str-based (Swim, Climb, Jump) into Athletics. As per objections raised above, you may want to disallow some skill uses on case-by-case basis (a fish can't climb....)

Suggested descriptive names:
* Knowledge: Mystic = Arcana + Spellcraft
* Knowledge: Esoteric = Religion + The Planes
* Knowledge: Social = History + Local + Nobility/Royalty + Geography
* Knowledge: Natural = Nature + Dungeoneering

* Consolidating Bluff with <something else> is too much, as Bluff is plenty good on its own. If anything, you want to consolidate the rarely used skills, eg. Disguise + Forgery = Fraud, while leaving the commonly used ones alone.

* Not sure I agree with Ride and Handle Animal rolled together. This is a different skillset, and having both keyed off same ability is unrealistic. How exactly does a high Charisma help you quickly dismount or fall softly when your mount is killed under you? If you want to have both be the same skill, at the very least consider applying Charisma modifier to all checks related to commanding and training an animal, and Dexterity modifier to all checks related to staying in saddle, soft fall, fast dismount, etc.


1.If you lessen the number of skills, why don't you lessen the number of skill points? Like cut them in half? Why cut down the number of skills and then use the Core skill points? It's bad enough in core that characters can get +10, +20 in skills in no time...but you want to make that even easier and give them 'bonus skills' too. Or do you want all characters to have all skills maxed out so that they automatically make all skill checks and never have to roll?Gamer Girl, you may be too quick to draw the sword of sarcasm and are missing the issue.

There are currently 45 skills in core. Forty five. A competent rogue with fairly high Int can max out, I dunno, no more than 11 of those. Less than 25% of the total skillset, and that's for a character that's supposed to be the ultimate skillmonkey. Assuming the rest of the party is Cleric with average Int (2-3 maxed out skills), Paladin (same) and Wizard with Int 17 (5-6 maxed out skills), the entire party has only about half of the entire skillset maxed out. Please don't tell me this is a good thing when an entire party of competent adventurers, even assuming there's no doubling of skills (eg. Paladin and Cleric coordinate and don't both take Knowledge (religion)), can only be good at 1/2 of the skill set.

Clearly, the core system has too many skills. We can argue about implementation, but the general idea of reducing that number is a good one. Again, I've been playing with a set of ~25 skills for years and I love it. It's a lot better than 45. By the way, 4E also reduced the number of skills greatly, one of the things I like about 4E.

Timeless Error
2011-06-13, 02:08 PM
This looks like a system where, given how concentrated skills are (so much so that you're basically raising 2/3 ranks per skill point spent) and how low you get with spellcasting (level 8 means level 4 spells, don't forget), skillmonkeys are kings.

Which is AWESOME.

As I will mention later in this post, I intend to lower the trained skills per level to more reasonable amounts.


Actually, if I was you, I would add the Factotum to your allowed classes, and laugh as everybody picks it. Especially as the exp+feat thing completely solves his feat starvation problem.

Oh, I'm not limiting my players to choosing core classes. I'll add my ideas for changes to non-core classes soon.


Skills I just do not get rolling vaguely related skills into one skill. Maybe you can tell me why you even like this idea in general?

--Balance, Jump, and Tumble are rolled into Acrobatics, so everyone that can jump can also tumble and balance ? A kangaroo can jump but can also walk on a tight rope? A halfling that tumbles around on the ground can also make a standing high jump?
--Climb and Swim are rolled into Athletics, so if you can swim you can climb? So all fish and aquatic life forms can climb rocks and trees? And anyone who can climb a tree can also swim?
--Listen, Search, and Spot are rolled into Perception, this one bugs me the most. Not everyone has perfect senses! Some people have good eyesight, and some people have good hearing, but rarely both. The average eagle eyed sharpshooter does not also hear pins drop, let alone have the ability to search.


...Are you assuming that D&D, even remotely, corresponds to reality in any way?

I rolled skills together because some skills in the old system (such as climb, for example) had barely any utility at all, whereas others (social skills like Bluff and Diplomacy, in addition to Use Magic Device) could be applied to 75% of situations in any given game. I realize that I'm sacrificing one more bit of realism here, but was there ever any realism in D&D in the first place?


1.If you lessen the number of skills, why don't you lessen the number of skill points? Like cut them in half? Why cut down the number of skills and then use the Core skill points? It's bad enough in core that characters can get +10, +20 in skills in no time...but you want to make that even easier and give them 'bonus skills' too. Or do you want all characters to have all skills maxed out so that they automatically make all skill checks and never have to roll?

2.Do you not think it's odd that a elf living and climbing the trees in a jungle 100 miles from any lake or ocean as also a perfect Olympic class swimming despite the fact she has never been in the water?

Number 2 I already addressed above. Number 1 is largely an oversight on my part.

Here's what I plan to have the new "skills trained" values be:

Barbarian 3 + 1/2 Int modifier, rounded down
Bard 4 + 1/2 Int modifier, rounded down
Cleric 2 + 1/2 Int modifier, rounded down
Druid 3 + 1/2 Int modifier, rounded down
Fighter 1 + 1/2 Int modifier, rounded down
Monk 5 + 1/2 Int modifier, rounded down
Paladin 1 + 1/2 Int modifier, rounded down
Ranger 4 + 1/2 Int modifier, rounded down
Rogue 5 + 1/2 Int modifier, rounded down
Sorcerer 3 + 1/2 Int modifier, rounded down
Wizard 3 + 1/2 Int modifier, rounded down

Vladislav
2011-06-13, 02:12 PM
This looks like a system where, given how concentrated skills are (so much so that you're basically raising 2/3 ranks per skill point spent) and how low you get with spellcasting (level 8 means level 4 spells, don't forget), skillmonkeys are kings.

Which is AWESOME.
As I will mention later in this post, I intend to lower the trained skills per level to more reasonable amounts.
Suddenly a lot less awesome. Pretty much back to square one after a lot of meaningless tumbling.

Timeless Error
2011-06-13, 02:18 PM
I have been running a consolidated skill system in my games for years, so I believe I'm qualified to comment on this part.

* I don't agree with Spot/Listen/Search being all one skill, as the former two are passive and the latter proactive. Spot/Listen = Perception, and leaving Search alone is what I'd do.

Hm...Search would become a bit of a weak option, then, in my view. Maybe Perception (Listen/Spot) becomes a passive statistic, like Armor Class, and searching is an "active" Perception check?


* Acrobatics and Athletics - you may want to consolidate the Dex-based skills (Tumble, Escape Artist, Balance) into Acrobatics, and Str-based (Swim, Climb, Jump) into Athletics. As per objections raised above, you may want to disallow some skill uses on case-by-case basis (a fish can't climb....)

Yeah, I'll move Jump to Athletics. However, I think Escape Artist fits more well with Use Rope than it does Acrobatics.

As a side note, there's a system in a 3rd party sourcebook that I use called the Advanced Player's Manual which has a section on skill use for different types of creatures (like horses, fish, and gelatinous cubes) that helps with the issue you (and, to some extent, Gamer Girl) raised.


Suggested descriptive names:
* Knowledge: Mystic = Arcana + Spellcraft
* Knowledge: Esoteric = Religion + The Planes
* Knowledge: Social = History + Local + Nobility/Royalty + Geography
* Knowledge: Natural = Nature + Dungeoneering

Nice ideas, I'll use them. However, isn't leaving Knowledge (architecture/engineering) alone a bad idea? It becomes pretty much useless if it doesn't have some other branch of knowledge supplementing it.


* Consolidating Bluff with <something else> is too much, as Bluff is plenty good on its own. If anything, you want to consolidate the rarely used skills, eg. Disguise + Forgery = Fraud, while leaving the commonly used ones alone.

OK, I'll pull Forgery out of Linguistics and add it to Disguise.


* Not sure I agree with Ride and Handle Animal rolled together. This is a different skillset, and having both keyed off same ability is unrealistic. How exactly does a high Charisma help you quickly dismount or fall softly when your mount is killed under you? If you want to have both be the same skill, at the very least consider applying Charisma modifier to all checks related to commanding and training an animal, and Dexterity modifier to all checks related to staying in saddle, soft fall, fast dismount, etc.

I guess I did the same thing with Sense Motive/Social, so making Handle Animal checks to ride Dex-based sounds like a fair idea.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the person I was replying to!


Suddenly a lot less awesome. Pretty much back to square one after a lot of meaningless tumbling.

I'm getting mixed messages from my various PEACHers. I guess I'll change the "skills trained" back to their original values, then?

Vladislav
2011-06-13, 02:25 PM
I'm getting mixed messages from my various PEACHers. I guess I'll change the "skills trained" back to their original values, then?I can't speak on behalf of the others, but I actually have experience playing and DMing, both tabletop and PbP, with a system of consolidated skills (down to ~25 skills), for over 2 years, and we never saw the need to reduce the skillpoints per level. My personal impression is that having characters cover a bit more of the skillset is a good thing, not a bad thing.

erikun
2011-06-13, 02:28 PM
Nice ideas, I'll use them. However, isn't leaving Knowledge (architecture/engineering) alone a bad idea? It becomes pretty much useless if it doesn't have some other branch of knowledge supplementing it.
I put Architecture/Engineering together with Open Lock and Disable Device as a general "Mechanics" skill.


I guess I did the same thing with Sense Motive/Social, so making Handle Animal checks to ride Dex-based sounds like a fair idea.
How about rolling Handle Animal, Sense Motive, and perhaps other skills together into one named "Empathy"?

Timeless Error
2011-06-13, 02:33 PM
I can't speak on behalf of the others, but I actually have experience playing and DMing, both tabletop and PbP, with a system of consolidated skills (down to ~25 skills), for over 2 years, and we never saw the need to reduce the skillpoints per level. My personal impression is that having characters cover a bit more of the skillset is a good thing, not a bad thing.

All right, cool. Thanks for the input, I'll leave the class allotments for trained skills unchanged from their 3.5 versions.


I put Architecture/Engineering together with Open Lock and Disable Device as a general "Mechanics" skill.

Awesome, that's the solution I was looking for. I'll change it. Perfect.


How about rolling Handle Animal, Sense Motive, and perhaps other skills together into one named "Empathy"?

However, I think we should leave well enough alone with this one.

Gamer Girl
2011-06-13, 09:05 PM
There are currently 45 skills in core. Forty five. A competent rogue with fairly high Int can max out, I dunno, no more than 11 of those. Less than 25% of the total skillset, and that's for a character that's supposed to be the ultimate skillmonkey. Assuming the rest of the party is Cleric with average Int (2-3 maxed out skills), Paladin (same) and Wizard with Int 17 (5-6 maxed out skills), the entire party has only about half of the entire skillset maxed out. Please don't tell me this is a good thing when an entire party of competent adventurers, even assuming there's no doubling of skills (eg. Paladin and Cleric coordinate and don't both take Knowledge (religion)), can only be good at 1/2 of the skill set.

Clearly, the core system has too many skills. We can argue about implementation, but the general idea of reducing that number is a good one. Again, I've been playing with a set of ~25 skills for years and I love it. It's a lot better than 45. By the way, 4E also reduced the number of skills greatly, one of the things I like about 4E.

45 skills and most characters can be good at half of them, sounds fine to me. It's not like every character should have 3/4 of all the skills maxed out.


3X is bad enough with super skills. Any first level character can easily have a +10 to several skill checks. So any DC of less then 20 is pointless. And as a character levels up, it just increases. At 10th level, the character is +20 or more in skills. This makes most natural hazards and lesser magic ones pointless. The 10th level character can make the pathetic DC 10 for Grease with no roll with a Balance of +25.

And while Core gives all the pluses to characters, they don't equal up the DC's of everything. An ''Irresistible'' current has a DC of 25, a ''wicked'' trap is DC 25, and so on. By 4th level a character can get DC's of 25 with no problem.

I just see putting all the skills together making this worse. In Core you already have characters that load up Spot and Listen to see and hear everything in the world. But at least they have to use up double the skill points.

The automatic skill success just bugs me.

Vladislav
2011-06-13, 09:33 PM
45 skills and most characters can be good at half of them, sounds fine to me. It's not like every character should have 3/4 of all the skills maxed out.This is not the case right now. A group of four characters put together can be good at half of them, barely. A single character can be good at the most at 1/4 of them (high-int rogue) or as little as 1/15 of them (average-int paladin).

With the reduction of the skill set to about 25, a single skillmonkey-type character can be good at almost 1/2 of the skills, and the entire 4-man party can cover almost the entire set. Much better!


This makes most natural hazards and lesser magic ones pointless. The 10th level character can make the pathetic DC 10 for Grease with no roll with a Balance of +25.Wait a minute ... you think the fact a 10th level character can't be stopped by a piddly level 1 spell is a bad thing!? I maintain that it's the natural order of things - a level 1 spell is not supposed to be a meaninful obstacle to a level 10 character, just like an Orc is not supposed to be a meaningful opponent to a level 10 fighter.

Timeless Error
2011-06-14, 06:13 AM
Hi guys, I've updated the original post with a new section: Non-Core Classes, Adjusted. So far, I only have the one's from the Player's Handbook II up, but I also intend to make changes to classes from the Complete series and other sources. Let me know if you notice anything I should change.

Also, what are your opinions on Battle Points? I'm a little bit uncertain about the new mechanic, and I'd like a critique of it.

Timeless Error
2011-06-19, 10:16 AM
*Earth-shaking thread bump*

I've updated the Non-Core Classes section with classes from the Expanded Psionics Handbook and the Complete Adventurer, Warrior, and Psionic. Let me know what you think!

Also, nobody has any opinions on Battle Points?