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Ursus the Grim
2011-06-17, 08:56 AM
Hey, Jake. You let it slip last night that you frequent the GitP forums, so if you are reading this, yeah, its about you. More specifically, its about you being confronted about how to heal by a certain player and how to diffuse the situation if it comes up again. Sorry brah.

The rest of you. In the current campaign I'm running, the cleric (built around a healing PrC, no less) doesn't like to cast healing spells after encounters because he has a fast healing aura. A few times now, another player has asked him for a heal spell, to which he replies

"Just stand within 10 feet of me for a while, you'll be good."
"You've got like a million healing spells, why can't you cast one?"
"I'm an efficient healer."

He is referring to the Fast Healing 2 that his aura provides. Now, I haven't said anything in character because I'm the DM, but its annoying the players greatly. Considering the current campaign began with a CR 21 fiend planeshifting in at the end of a fight, everyone is a little worried that I won't give them enough time to heal up.

I think it was going to take approximately 3 minutes after the last run for the weakened party member to get patched up. It came to a head when the two players nearly argued over it (and it was becoming an OOC argument too).

The kicker is, at this point, the Cleric is playing a blaster but half his spells are failing due to SR. So he really wouldn't lose much by throwing a Heal or Cure spell their way, especially because the Sorcerer's Effigy and the Seeker of the Song are greatly outpacing him on damage.

The obvious solution would be to throw a second, immediate encounter at them, but if the issue is as dire of the Seeker expects, we'll have a more dramatic argument because of the "stupid" cleric. They're also in a pretty sparse area right now, and will soon travel to an even more desolate, lonely location, so a random encounter (aside from being a huge time sink) would just be unlikely. But if they're not endangered, he'll have no reason to change his ways.

Any suggestions for how I can bring this up out of character without making the player feel offended that I'm telling him how to play, or on giving the cleric a bit of a kick in the pants, would be appreciated. Telling the bard/seeker to relax won't work because we feud enough as it is and I "always take" the cleric's side.

Talya
2011-06-17, 08:59 AM
He's generally right about being efficient with spells. If he has an easy source of free hit point healing, he's silly to waste spells on doing so.

However, it sounds like he's not being particularly effective anyway, so...

Coidzor
2011-06-17, 08:59 AM
Well, there is a little thing known as time skips. ...& properly setting player expectations.

& another little thing known as wanting to play a character rather than a box of band-aids.

You wanna encourage him to start using healing spells out of combat? Wand or two of lesser vigor/CLW.


The obvious solution would be to throw a second, immediate encounter at them, but if the issue is as dire of the Seeker expects, we'll have a more dramatic argument because of the "stupid" cleric. They're also in a pretty sparse area right now, and will soon travel to an even more desolate, lonely location, so a random encounter (aside from being a huge time sink) would just be unlikely. But if they're not endangered, he'll have no reason to change his ways.

No, that would just make the rest of the party more stressed out. The only reason they care is either because you drag out the time they spend after a fight (or they're being dumb about it rather than letting the time pass) or because of that CR 21 encounter you dumped on them has made them paranoid that you're going to start doing this regularly because you dislike the healing aura.

Of course he wouldn't have a reason to change his ways if they're not endangered. Why is the group so impatient that you all can't say a couple minutes pass? Because it just takes longer when you all argue about it.

Edit: And punishing another player by killing his character in order to force another player to start playing his character differently is something that would not be looked favorably upon if the group make the mental connection of what happened.

Doesn't seem to work very well either, as it just makes the healer more defensive. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198511)

Talya
2011-06-17, 09:24 AM
Of course he wouldn't have a reason to change his ways if they're not endangered. Why is the group so impatient that you all can't say a couple minutes pass? Because it just takes longer when you all argue about it.




Yeah. I don't know what this "healing aura" does specifically, but if it heals X hit points per round or something, that pretty much means the DM should be simply telling everyone to raise all their hit points to maximum immediately after every fight. It's not something you would track out of combat.

Typewriter
2011-06-17, 09:33 AM
If a fellow player started trying to tell me what spells to cast and when I'd probably stop healing them altogether.

He's healing them as he sees fit, if the other player has a problem with that he can take care of himself.

Now, if this starts to cause legitimate problems (people getting killed because a new encounter starts before he finished healing with his aura) that's one thing, but until that starts happening often enough to be a problem....

EDIT:

In short he's doing nothing wrong, but people are complaining to him in and out of character, and you're talking about finding ways to change his play style even though he's doing nothing wrong and there's no downside.

GodGoblin
2011-06-17, 09:54 AM
I agree that he isnt doing anything wrong, three minutes is 30 rounds so to your players it may seem a long time but its really just 180 seconds! That is no time at all reakky and burning a spell when you could do that seems pointless to me.

I would complain if my cleric had a healing aura but kept using his spell slots 'Just in case'.

Sir Swindle89
2011-06-17, 10:05 AM
I would complain if my cleric had a healing aura but kept using his spell slots 'Just in case'.

this

I geuss it might be a bigger issue with lvl21 HP but still they could either wait 5mins (the standard after combat rest in 4th i might point out) or not get brought back from the brink of death with a dragon bearing down on them.

GodGoblin
2011-06-17, 10:15 AM
Also something people forget when playing D&D is that you have just had a fight to the death and been probably been stabbed multiple times! If YOU were in that situation you would want a sit down for a lot longer than 5 minutes before wandering off into another cave.

erikun
2011-06-17, 10:17 AM
So, the problem is that your party cleric is not acting as the walking band-aid kit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0006.html). Furthermore, in a land full of few encounters and even less scenery, he isn't spending his spell slots to recover HP because he has an automatic healing aura that puts everyone back up to full before the next encounter starts anyways. Does that sound about right? :smallannoyed:

I tend towards playing clerics, so I know that people will demand healing from you when you play one. I also know how annoying it is to exspend 20 levels of class features on keeping people alive who insist on jumping off cliffs, swimming through acid, and fighting hill giants nude because "the cleric can just heal it off". (I wish I was joking.) This would be doubly frustrating if the player characters would naturally heal off that damage anyways, but they insist I spend my limited daily resources so that they can do it again two minutes sooner.

Also, I think you might be misinterpreting the player's build. When they took a prestige class to become a better healer, they didn't do so to heal more. They apparently did so to provide the same healing with less resources, so that they could do more other things besides healing.


Now, that doesn't mean such a playstyle isn't without problems. I would hope that they player is willing to spend a Heal spell or two if another fight jumps up immediately afterwards. And if the party is trying to move from one fight to another quickly - say, to preserve buffs with short durations - then spending spell slots rather than waiting makes sense. On the other hand, this is a "pretty sparse, desolate, lonely location" so I doubt they are travelling from room to room to preserve those rounds/level durations.

Also, why isn't the Seeker of the Song spending his spell slots healing? Bards are just as good of healers as Clerics. Or does nobody complain that the Bard isn't spending all his low-level spell slots on patching people up?

Khatoblepas
2011-06-17, 10:41 AM
The Cleric is doing the right thing.

The characters can just heal up, read a book, sharpen their swords, pray to their god or tune their guitars while they heal. It could take as much as three seconds for some downtime or they could use the time to go over their plans. Actively using spells instead actually wastes more real-world time than saying "We set up camp".

Burning out the cleric on healing spells is a really bad idea. Where are those Mass Heals the Cleric uses on the downtime when the party really needs it? Best save your resources for when you REALLY, REALLY need it.

I don't think it's the cleric that needs to change his playstyle... it's the other players.

Seerow
2011-06-17, 10:47 AM
Agreeing with the majority here, the problem isn't your cleric, it's you. When you get to the point that you are considering throwing not 2, but 3 encounters back to back without even 3 minutes of rest just to encourage the cleric to play a healbot like you want him to rather than playing how he wants, you have a major problem, not him.

Typewriter
2011-06-17, 10:56 AM
I don't think it's the cleric that needs to change his playstyle... it's the other players.

Trying to tell a fellow player how to play his character when he's not negatively affecting the game isn't a playstyle issue, it's just an issue.

/nitpick

tyckspoon
2011-06-17, 11:06 AM
I'm gonna have to join with everybody else on this one, and suggest you try looking at it from the player's perspective. He clearly doesn't think he's playing 'the healer'. He's a combat cleric, and he's already made a pretty big concession to the party in investing resources to have his healing aura and have rapid powerful healing available when needed instead of picking his feats and prestige class for 'I blow up everything forever', which he very easily could (and if he had, you'd probably have that sorcerer and Seeker of the Song complaining to you about the Cleric's damage output instead.)

Magesmiley
2011-06-17, 11:10 AM
I think that the player with the cleric is doing the smart thing here. A lot of players don't really appreciate the value of a healer that intelligently manages their resources.

If the other players don't like the way the player is handing out his spells and assets, they can always:

A) Play a character that can heal themselves (small chance of that) or

B) spring (out of their own characters' pocket) for items for the cleric to use to heal them when they think that they need healing.

Seb Wiers
2011-06-17, 11:10 AM
Not a 3.5 player, but I'm assuming they don't just give out "fast healing aura" for free to anybody. The whole point of making the investment needed to get that power would precisely be so that you don't need to use healing spells.

As for the blasty spells failing- why not buffing spells instead? Preventing damage via tank spells and dishing it out via buffs does more to keep the party safe than healing spells.

HappyBlanket
2011-06-17, 11:15 AM
So, now that the horse of what the Cleric should do has been brutally beaten to death, you still have to deal with your other players. I'll spare you another flurry of critiques, but if I'm taking your description to be accurate, then everyone at your table except Jake is against his play style. Letting Jake continue, and letting the current frequency of encounters continue, is (though fair and appropriate) not going to stop the arguments between your players.

I mean, don't get me wrong; the Cleric's play style isn't an issue at all. It's fine. It's just the table dynamic you need to worry about.

...Course, telling the Cleric what to do seems so much simpler than telling everyone else what to do. But I'm not a diplomancer, so I can't help you with that. And you should probably side with Jake here anyway.

Asheram
2011-06-17, 11:20 AM
I agree with the earlier statements and the only thing I have to say is: "Do they want nine hours of downtime or three minutes?"

Toliudar
2011-06-17, 11:22 AM
Since you're clearly willing to suggest alternative spell use to a player, and the cleric's player seems to like blasting, may I suggest Cometfall from Spell Compendium. Extremely blasty, and no SR.

Or, as mentioned before, there's a variety of excellent buffs he could be focusing on instead.

Eric Tolle
2011-06-17, 11:41 AM
The party leader needs to call the cleric into his office, sit him down, and in a non-confrontational manner ask him how he sees his role in the party, what he considers to be the expectations are of his job, and where he sees his career as a cleric going. Then the party leader can bring up the issues the other party members have noted, and approach the situation in a coaching manner, not a confrontational one.

1. Describe the Cleric's specific performance issues

* Talk about the issues, not about the Cleric's poor effort.
* Describe the results of the Cleric's performance.

2. Describe the expected standards of Adventurer performance

Be specific. Don't say you have a "poor" attitude; instead list specific occurrences that illustrate problematic behavior.

3. Determine the cause of the performance issues

* Does the Cleric lack training, skills, knowledge?
* Is there a lack of motivation, incentive?
* Are there external factors involved (family, financial, etc.)?
* Are there factors beyond the Cleric's control affecting the performance?

4. Ask the Cleric for solution(s)

What could the Cleric do to improve this situation?

5. Discuss each solution with the Cleric

* How will this solution help with the Cleric's problem?
* Discuss your solution(s).
* Try to jointly improve upon the solutions.

6. Agree on specific actions to be done and a time frame to implement them

Arrange for another meeting in the future to track the progress/results of the solution.

Shadowknight12
2011-06-17, 11:46 AM
I would talk to the cleric to find out what he wants out of the game and find a way to make it happen. If he wants to blast, perhaps I can work out a better set of spells for him, or I can make him find an item that gives him a large bonus to overcome SR.

That's the long, but ultimately more satisfying route. The bandaid approach is to throw lots of undead at them (with sky-high energy resistances and DR) and let him use his cure spells as blasting spells (that are unaffected by energy resistance, DR and all that). It won't be a long-term solution, but it can be a good temporary patch.

Valameer
2011-06-17, 11:50 AM
If your group really has a problem with the cleric not sucking it up like a ***** and becoming a dedicated healer, then why doesn't one of them reroll into a walking band-aid kit?

Let someone else do the healing if they think it's insufficient.

Clerics are so much more than just healers. People who play as clerics shouldn't automatically be assigned to band-aid duty.

You've asked him to heal, and he's given you his response. Obviously he has no intentions of being the main in-combat healer (which is very inefficient anyway.)

EDIT: Woaah! Assuming 3e that is. If you're playing Basic, 1e, 2e or 4e, then he better start cracking out those heals. :smalltongue:

Sewercop
2011-06-17, 11:53 AM
The party leader needs to call the cleric into his office, sit him down, and in a non-confrontational manner ask him how he sees his role in the party, what he considers to be the expectations are of his job, and where he sees his career as a cleric going. Then the party leader can bring up the issues the other party members have noted, and approach the situation in a coaching manner, not a confrontational one.

1. Describe the Cleric's specific performance issues

* Talk about the issues, not about the Cleric's poor effort.
* Describe the results of the Cleric's performance.

2. Describe the expected standards of Adventurer performance

Be specific. Don't say you have a "poor" attitude; instead list specific occurrences that illustrate problematic behavior.

3. Determine the cause of the performance issues

* Does the Cleric lack training, skills, knowledge?
* Is there a lack of motivation, incentive?
* Are there external factors involved (family, financial, etc.)?
* Are there factors beyond the Cleric's control affecting the performance?

4. Ask the Cleric for solution(s)

What could the Cleric do to improve this situation?

5. Discuss each solution with the Cleric

* How will this solution help with the Cleric's problem?
* Discuss your solution(s).
* Try to jointly improve upon the solutions.

6. Agree on specific actions to be done and a time frame to implement them

Arrange for another meeting in the future to track the progress/results of the solution.

Really? you should switch places with that player. \sigh

I would just tell them how resource managment works. After my insane good patience of 5mins had gone by to allow them to comprehend, i would have asked if they wanted healing or not. If yes, it would be healing my way.

Urpriest
2011-06-17, 11:59 AM
Hmm...this Jake...isn't Doc Roc, is it? :smallbiggrin:

Freylorn
2011-06-17, 12:05 PM
If your group really has a problem with the cleric not sucking it up like a ***** and becoming a dedicated healer, then why doesn't one of them reroll into a walking band-aid kit?

Let someone else do the healing if they think it's insufficient.

Clerics are so much more than just healers. People who play as clerics shouldn't automatically be assigned to band-aid duty.

You've asked him to heal, and he's given you his response. Obviously he has no intentions of being the main in-combat healer (which is very inefficient anyway.)

EDIT: Woaah! Assuming 3e that is. If you're playing Basic, 1e, 2e or 4e, then he better start cracking out those heals. :smalltongue:

I'd assume it to be 3e, primarily because the OP mentions a PrC.

In all honesty, I have to throw in with the choir here: don't fix what ain't broke. The party isn't wiping, the cleric is doing fine. If his method works, what's the issue?

Tyndmyr
2011-06-17, 12:36 PM
Your cleric is fine. If your other players feel a need for more healing, they are welcome to play a healer themselves, no?

If I were this healer, Id have a perverse tendancy to, after enough wining, immediately heal them after every scratch, then, as soon as a boss encounter starts, inform them that I was out of heals. For definitions of out that include "just enough to save my own butt". Id then laugh manically at their plight. The words "I told you so" might come up.

Ursus the Grim
2011-06-17, 12:41 PM
There were a lot more comments than I expected, so I can't address them all. I'm surprised, not upset, that there's so much support for the "cool your jets and wait" mentality. I would just point out that he could simply cast a 4th level spell (mind you, he is a lvl 19 full caster) to shut up the rest of the party. That's the issue the Bard had.


Hmm...this Jake...isn't Doc Roc, is it? :smallbiggrin:

Jeez. If I was Doc Roc's DM, I think I'd have bigger issues than people whining about not being healed. :smallwink: That being said, I don't know his username, so he could have already posted. HE COULD HAVE PITTED YOU ALL AGAINST ME!!!!

Edit: Wait. He did say he was working on his own system. Oh lord. Oh no. :smalleek:

/paranoia.

So, that being said, how do you think I should go about asking the rest of the party to relax without clearly taking Cleric's side. We've had a few. . . gentle arguments in the past (remember the Seduction thread that exploded?) and I don't want to cause any MORE trouble. Technically speaking, there is no party leader. The Bard's player is inexperienced, so it might actually be the Cleric.

Also, this is 3.5, to be clear.

Talya
2011-06-17, 12:54 PM
Point out the reason he has healing aura is so that he doesn't need to use up his all important spell slots on something so mundane as their hit points unless it's an emergency. That's the purpose of the damn thing.

4th level spells are huge, there's far better things he should be doing than healing with it.

Also, you could help them a lot by simply saying after every fight their hit points are healed to max. (Because they are.)

tyckspoon
2011-06-17, 12:58 PM
You could probably patch the issue by throwing a Staff of Healing at the group if all they're really wanting is the occasional Cure X Wounds. Or just suggest they go buy one for the Cleric to use; it should be a trivial cost for a high-level party. Or a Staff of Heal (ie, Staff of Life without the huge extra cost of Resurrection in it), but I've never been clear on how staff prices are derived so I don't know what that'd actually cost.

Valameer
2011-06-17, 01:03 PM
Bards make great healers! Maybe drop a wand of cure critical or something for him, and encourage the bard to pick up the cleric's slack.

If the problem is that the other players are pissed at low heals, the other players should look for ways to get more heals.

What are the other classes? Clerics aren't the only healers. Druids, bards, and artificers are all great healers. Many other classes can contribute to the healing as well.

The other players could invest in belts of healing, which are a inexpensive means for healing for anyone.

There's really no need to lean on the cleric so heavily.

Ursus the Grim
2011-06-17, 01:06 PM
Bards make great healers! Maybe drop a wand of cure critical or something for him, and encourage the bard to pick up the cleric's slack.

If the problem is that the other players are pissed at low heals, the other players should look for ways to get more heals.

What are the other classes? Clerics aren't the only healers. Druids, bards, and artificers are all great healers. Many other classes can contribute to the healing as well.

The other players could invest in belts of healing, which are a inexpensive means for healing for anyone.

There's really no need to lean on the cleric so heavily.

Other classes.
Bard/Seeker of the Song
Sorcerer/Effigy Master
Rogue/Thief Acrobat
Death Slaad Assassin

So yeah, heals are pretty much just the Bard and Cleric. I might use the "meh, everyone's up to full" handwave, just for the sake of conflict avoidance.

Talya
2011-06-17, 01:10 PM
Other classes.
Bard/Seeker of the Song
Sorcerer/Effigy Master
Rogue/Thief Acrobat
Death Slaad Assassin

So yeah, heals are pretty much just the Bard and Cleric. I might use the "meh, everyone's up to full" handwave, just for the sake of conflict avoidance.

It's not really a handwave in this case. You said his aura would heal them up to full in 3 minutes. Do you account for every minute of their day? After a fight, they usually spend more than 3 minutes just assessing the damage and collecting their loot. In this time, they're already healed to full.

Ursus the Grim
2011-06-17, 01:13 PM
It's not really a handwave in this case. You said his aura would heal them up to full in 3 minutes. Do you account for every minute of their day? After a fight, they usually spend more than 3 minutes just assessing the damage and collecting their loot. In this time, they're already healed to full.

It depends on the situation. When they're travelling in between fights, I let them heal for free. But in this case they had just fought to open a portal and were JUST about to head in to fight the thing inside.

Honest Tiefling
2011-06-17, 01:14 PM
And remember, time must always be set aside for looting! Through, have you considered just giving them a plot related NPC for healing? I think that Jake here doesn't feel like healing and trying to force him will just result in an unhappy player, which is unlikely to result in more healing. Tell the party that you are willing to give an NPC to them to help them with healing, but if they do not like it, they can go to the local temple's Heal-o-mart.

askandarion
2011-06-17, 01:16 PM
*EDIT2- and it seems others said similar things already or the OP gave more information while I was typing. I believe this where I point out the ninjas?*

I don't know. I agree that the aura is a good thing to use and save the spells for later, but the thing is, the players/characters can't be certain nothing's going to happen in that time unless they always do the rope trick/demiplane junk. I don't think it's a mortal sin for the other players to ask for additional healing, the expenditure of a spell or two, just in case. It's preparing for the worse outcomes while hoping for the better, particularly given their prior experience with back-to-back encounters.

The cleric clearly doesn't want to spend all his resources healing, and the other players don't want to risk their characters dying because of that reluctance. Here's a question: if a pc is in dire straits during combat, will the cleric pull off a heal to save their skin? The minutes it requires to heal up through the aura should generally not be an issue at that level (fast-forward, as others have suggested), unless the DM prefers otherwise- in my experience, pretty much all characters have cheap means of healing up (EDIT- at that level, such as belts or chipping in for wands). If the group is still counting rounds after a combat is clearly over, why?

It sounds like most of the group isn't that invested in optimization, but the cleric tries more. Just a slight variance in playstyles. I'd suggest glossing over the time spent or dropping/strongly suggesting wands and such. The bard would be capable of using such wands as well, after all. Ask the cleric to be more willing to drop a spell or two to give a comfort zone to the pcs, and after a combat speed up time or describe something in detail so the time passes without them being focused on their watches and tapping their feet as the aura tops them up. Don't they loot bodies?

Typewriter
2011-06-17, 01:38 PM
So, that being said, how do you think I should go about asking the rest of the party to relax without clearly taking Cleric's side. We've had a few. . . gentle arguments in the past (remember the Seduction thread that exploded?) and I don't want to cause any MORE trouble. Technically speaking, there is no party leader. The Bard's player is inexperienced, so it might actually be the Cleric.

Also, this is 3.5, to be clear.

The best way to handle it (IMO) would be to let them know that they're free to talk about this in character, and if they want to try and convince *cleric* of this then they can. And then explain to them that it is not OK to tell another player how to play his character unless he's asking for help. If it's negatively affecting their enjoyment of the game they can talk to you (the DM) about it, and you will handle it from there. Do not say "I think you're wrong" or "I think he's wrong" or "I agree with XYZ". Simply say that telling others how to play is not allowed. That's a fairly neutral ruling, and one that most games should have.

Again, IMO.

Jothki
2011-06-17, 01:43 PM
He has a fast healing aura, not an "instantly heal everyone to full at the end of combat" aura, which would be more difficult to obtain if it existed. It's the DM's duty to make sure that at some point, there's a difference between the two.

Vladislav
2011-06-17, 01:46 PM
If I could go from gravely injured, dragging my intestines on the floor and bleeding all over the place to fully patched up and battle ready in three minutes, with no action required on my part, I wouldn't complain at all.

As long as the option of back-to-back threats is off the table, there's no reason for him to accelerate his healing, and no reason for the rest of the party to complain. As a DM, if you know you're not going to have a back-to-back encounter, whenever such argument develops, cut it short with "three minutes pass, everyone's healthy, what do you want to do now?"

Edit: If you do want to bring back-to-back threats into the game, make sure the party is aware of the possibility in advance. Drop thick hints. Do not attempt to be subtle about it. For example, have an NPC with the party comment, "Why such slow healing? When traveling through the Caverns of Despair, one needs to be battle-ready at all times! Why, I remember when ...." etc

d13
2011-06-17, 01:48 PM
I might use the "meh, everyone's up to full" handwave, just for the sake of conflict avoidance.

Unless you have something more important than that to happen in the... 3 ingame minutes that are needed to get everyone back to full, or the healing aura has some sort of clause (like only heals up to half, or whatever) you should.

I mean... Three minutes. You've just been stabbed, smashed, pierced and fireballed by stuff that wants to kill you. You are going to be sitting for A LOT more than 3 minutes, to be able to continue advancing, 19th level or 2nd.

Typewriter
2011-06-17, 01:57 PM
He has a fast healing aura, not an "instantly heal everyone to full at the end of combat" aura, which would be more difficult to obtain if it existed. It's the DM's duty to make sure that at some point, there's a difference between the two.

Yes and no. The DMs job isn't to nerf people for the sake of nerfing them. If it makes sense for something to attack them within 3 minutes of the last fight ending then it should.

It is not the DMs duty to simply attack them for the sake of proving a point.

I mean, seriously? What about a player who has fast healing for just himself? Are you going to periodically attack the entire party after a fight because one guy saved his potions for later when he felt fine to just sit on his fast healing for a few rounds?

Sewercop
2011-06-17, 03:03 PM
Are there any good reasons to why none of the other players can heal themselves? no potions bought,no healing belts,no regen?
Wand of cure light wounds?
Seriously?

They are a party without a frontliner.. And they demand the one able to be a good frontliner be a healbot? So i guess they have damage sorceror, stealthy slaad and tumbling thief and singing bard...
hmmm

That reminds me... Checking the spells.. Whoa!! The bard can heal too.. hmm
Perhaps he is scrying for the next battle... or should that be done by the sorceror? What are the stealthys doing? nagging on healing cause they got targeted in the fight i guess... Sorry.. The assasin(do he have lvls at all in assasin?) err death slaad with 15 racial hit die and prob a lvl adjustment beyond fun(or legal) prob cast some spells at will and got away with some less damage..
That raises another point.. why cant he just summon in a bunch of slaads and send them to scout the portal.. for say like 3 mins?

The cleric is doing the party the favor of saving theyre behinds cause they cant be botherd to spend coins on self preservation at all?
And the bard should be taught a lesson in healing by the cleric.. say.. a gated solar telling him to heal himslef and everybody else when the cleric feels it appropriate...

I applaud the cleric for standing his grounds against morons!


Ps.. It probably aint this bad.. But i have played with to many morons to even bother to pretend i can be neutral on subjects like this.

Ursus the Grim
2011-06-17, 03:23 PM
Are there any good reasons to why none of the other players can heal themselves? no potions bought,no healing belts,no regen?
Wand of cure light wounds?
Seriously?

They are a party without a frontliner.. And they demand the one able to be a good frontliner be a healbot? So i guess they have damage sorceror, stealthy slaad and tumbling thief and singing bard...
hmmm

That reminds me... Checking the spells.. Whoa!! The bard can heal too.. hmm
Perhaps he is scrying for the next battle... or should that be done by the sorceror? What are the stealthys doing? nagging on healing cause they got targeted in the fight i guess... Sorry.. The assasin(do he have lvls at all in assasin?) err death slaad with 15 racial hit die and prob a lvl adjustment beyond fun(or legal) prob cast some spells at will and got away with some less damage..
That raises another point.. why cant he just summon in a bunch of slaads and send them to scout the portal.. for say like 3 mins?

The cleric is doing the party the favor of saving theyre behinds cause they cant be botherd to spend coins on self preservation at all?
And the bard should be taught a lesson in healing by the cleric.. say.. a gated solar telling him to heal himslef and everybody else when the cleric feels it appropriate...

I applaud the cleric for standing his grounds against morons!


Ps.. It probably aint this bad.. But i have played with to many morons to even bother to pretend i can be neutral on subjects like this.

Here's the thing. I'm arguing on behalf of the rest of the party because I understand their points, and they can't be here to defend themselves when directly insulted.

What is the one thing the Core, non-cheesed Cleric can do better than ANY other class? Heal. They can spontaneously convert spells into heals. They can take a healing domain. His PrC was centered around improving his heal spells. He had EIGHT fourth-level spells prepared, one of which was a domain spell from, *gasp* HEALING.

Why use up permanent resources when you have a renewable resource right there? Potions and other use-limited healing items were in reserve for when the Cleric went down and needed to be patched up or when he (as happened during the following fight) was removed due to a Maze spell. How much sense would it make to use up all your limited healing resources when a healing-based build was right there and could do it better?

Why would it make more sense for the BARD to heal? He doesn't get Cure Serious until 10th level, the Cleric got it at 5th. The Bard could cast maybe 5 3rd level spells. The Cleric could cast twice that many, AND get a bonus to it.

I don't get how having the Bard scry instead of the sorcerer has any bearing on the whole situation. Nevermind the fact that they already knew what awaited them AND the next area couldn't be scried anyway.

As for tank, you missed the Advanced, Augmented, Legendary Bear Effigy with more HP and AC then any of them, plus DR 15. The cleric was not playing tank. He was playing stay away and cast spells at him while the DPS goes in and flanks.

Nice way to make assumptions about the group. The Death Slaad was a story-related NPC and was a mostly non-negotiable factor given what the players already knew. Because I was playing that, I wasn't going to bring in another NPC to play a healer when there was a character that was focused on it.

You called effectively everyone in my entire group a moron, because you have some crazy notions about how everyone should play their characters. The most humorous thing is that the biggest reason they got zinged in that battle was because the Cleric cast a spell that dealt 20d6 to anything taking a hostile action, except the enemy whose SR he failed against. The second funniest thing? That enemy was a Solar.

I didn't mind people saying "he can do what he wants, that time isn't that important." But you crossed a line, methinks. I've been learning to take criticism, but insulting people you don't even know is unacceptable where I'm from.

erikun
2011-06-17, 03:24 PM
I would actually throw out a recommendation to Jake, rather than the DM or the party.

Hey Jake! You want to blast, and still be able to heal yourself as well? Then, I'd actually recommend a Warforged Wizard. Check out the Repair Damage spells from Complete Arcane. They are basically identical to the Cure Wounds spells the Cleric has, except they only affect constructs.

Guess what Warforged are.
Guess what the rest of the party is not.
They can't ask you to heal them if you can't heal them in the first place. :smallamused:


But yeah, if the conflict continues, it might be best for Jake to just roll up another character than can't be thought of as a walking band-aid kit. Perhaps the Seeker of the Song will appreciate the roll a bit more when he is forced to give up spell slots/spells known to learn the Cure line and take up band-aid duty.


I would just point out that he could simply cast a 4th level spell (mind you, he is a lvl 19 full caster) to shut up the rest of the party.
Cure Critical Wounds heals around whopping 40 HP. Most 20th level characters have well over 100 HP, and some can probably get up to 300 HP. If they are seriously concerned about 40 HP lost, then it just sounds like whining to me.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-17, 03:28 PM
I would actually throw out a recommendation to Jake, rather than the DM or the party.

Hey Jake! You want to blast, and still be able to heal yourself as well? Then, I'd actually recommend a Warforged Wizard. Check out the Repair Damage spells from Complete Arcane. They are basically identical to the Cure Wounds spells the Cleric has, except they only affect constructs.

Guess what Warforged are.
Guess what the rest of the party is not.
They can't ask you to heal them if you can't heal them in the first place. :smallamused:


But yeah, if the conflict continues, it might be best for Jake to just roll up another character than can't be thought of as a walking band-aid kit. Perhaps the Seeker of the Song will appreciate the roll a bit more when he is forced to give up spell slots/spells known to learn the Cure line and take up band-aid duty.


Yeah, if you want to play a damage spellcaster, play a wizard or sorcerer (sorcerer's actually better than wizard if all he wants is raw damage).

erikun
2011-06-17, 03:30 PM
What is the one thing the Core, non-cheesed Cleric can do better than ANY other class? Heal. They can spontaneously convert spells into heals. They can take a healing domain. His PrC was centered around improving his heal spells. He had EIGHT fourth-level spells prepared, one of which was a domain spell from, *gasp* HEALING.
Bards can heal, and they can spontaneously convert any spell slot into any healing spell they know as well. Taking the healing domain grants a whole +1 HP at most, and at 19th level, that only applies to Cure Critical Wounds.

Ursus the Grim
2011-06-17, 03:37 PM
I would actually throw out a recommendation to Jake, rather than the DM or the party.

Hey Jake! You want to blast, and still be able to heal yourself as well? Then, I'd actually recommend a Warforged Wizard. Check out the Repair Damage spells from Complete Arcane. They are basically identical to the Cure Wounds spells the Cleric has, except they only affect constructs.

Guess what Warforged are.
Guess what the rest of the party is not.
They can't ask you to heal them if you can't heal them in the first place. :smallamused:


But yeah, if the conflict continues, it might be best for Jake to just roll up another character than can't be thought of as a walking band-aid kit. Perhaps the Seeker of the Song will appreciate the roll a bit more when he is forced to give up spell slots/spells known to learn the Cure line and take up band-aid duty.


Cure Critical Wounds heals around whopping 40 HP. Most 20th level characters have well over 100 HP, and some can probably get up to 300 HP. If they are seriously concerned about 40 HP lost, then it just sounds like whining to me.

He wasn't being selfish to that degree, he just didn't want to waste valuable spells healing them when the healing would take place with time. And the problem was that that 40 HP was dealt with one attack to a character with about 120 HP. Two more hits and she would have been gone, so she was playing it up a bit.


Unless you have something more important than that to happen in the... 3 ingame minutes that are needed to get everyone back to full, or the healing aura has some sort of clause (like only heals up to half, or whatever) you should.

I mean... Three minutes. You've just been stabbed, smashed, pierced and fireballed by stuff that wants to kill you. You are going to be sitting for A LOT more than 3 minutes, to be able to continue advancing, 19th level or 2nd.

See, that's the magic about magic healing. Realistically, we'd be rolling for PTS with the horrible things that happen to characters. In game, one HEAL and you're good to go.


If I could go from gravely injured, dragging my intestines on the floor and bleeding all over the place to fully patched up and battle ready in three minutes, with no action required on my part, I wouldn't complain at all.

As long as the option of back-to-back threats is off the table, there's no reason for him to accelerate his healing, and no reason for the rest of the party to complain. As a DM, if you know you're not going to have a back-to-back encounter, whenever such argument develops, cut it short with "three minutes pass, everyone's healthy, what do you want to do now?"

Edit: If you do want to bring back-to-back threats into the game, make sure the party is aware of the possibility in advance. Drop thick hints. Do not attempt to be subtle about it. For example, have an NPC with the party comment, "Why such slow healing? When traveling through the Caverns of Despair, one needs to be battle-ready at all times! Why, I remember when ...." etc

I wasn't being terribly subtle. The group, with the exception of him, was constantly expecting consecutive fights. They were travelling, pursued by fiends, to thwart the plans of Demogorgon. They knew full well things weren't going to fight fair. I made that clear with the first fight of the module.



He has a fast healing aura, not an "instantly heal everyone to full at the end of combat" aura, which would be more difficult to obtain if it existed. It's the DM's duty to make sure that at some point, there's a difference between the two.

Thats my personal train of thought. Fast healing's thing is that its supposed to be gradual healing, not complete HP refreshment between battles.


The best way to handle it (IMO) would be to let them know that they're free to talk about this in character, and if they want to try and convince *cleric* of this then they can. And then explain to them that it is not OK to tell another player how to play his character unless he's asking for help. If it's negatively affecting their enjoyment of the game they can talk to you (the DM) about it, and you will handle it from there. Do not say "I think you're wrong" or "I think he's wrong" or "I agree with XYZ". Simply say that telling others how to play is not allowed. That's a fairly neutral ruling, and one that most games should have.

Again, IMO.

They asked nicely at first, then asked him why not, then asked why not again, etc. They were doing it in character but slowly getting more and more bitter.


And remember, time must always be set aside for looting! Through, have you considered just giving them a plot related NPC for healing? I think that Jake here doesn't feel like healing and trying to force him will just result in an unhappy player, which is unlikely to result in more healing. Tell the party that you are willing to give an NPC to them to help them with healing, but if they do not like it, they can go to the local temple's Heal-o-mart.

Loot in this instance consisted of two swords. Angels don't carry much as they guard a barren tunnel without moving for millenia. The player's thought process was "Hey, he's a Healing Cleric with a Healing PRC, he must want to heal, because that's what a healer does!" The bard in question eventually grumbled and used a few potions, but it left a bad taste in the mouth for a while.


*EDIT2- and it seems others said similar things already or the OP gave more information while I was typing. I believe this where I point out the ninjas?*

I don't know. I agree that the aura is a good thing to use and save the spells for later, but the thing is, the players/characters can't be certain nothing's going to happen in that time unless they always do the rope trick/demiplane junk. I don't think it's a mortal sin for the other players to ask for additional healing, the expenditure of a spell or two, just in case. It's preparing for the worse outcomes while hoping for the better, particularly given their prior experience with back-to-back encounters.

The cleric clearly doesn't want to spend all his resources healing, and the other players don't want to risk their characters dying because of that reluctance. Here's a question: if a pc is in dire straits during combat, will the cleric pull off a heal to save their skin? The minutes it requires to heal up through the aura should generally not be an issue at that level (fast-forward, as others have suggested), unless the DM prefers otherwise- in my experience, pretty much all characters have cheap means of healing up (EDIT- at that level, such as belts or chipping in for wands). If the group is still counting rounds after a combat is clearly over, why?

It sounds like most of the group isn't that invested in optimization, but the cleric tries more. Just a slight variance in playstyles. I'd suggest glossing over the time spent or dropping/strongly suggesting wands and such. The bard would be capable of using such wands as well, after all. Ask the cleric to be more willing to drop a spell or two to give a comfort zone to the pcs, and after a combat speed up time or describe something in detail so the time passes without them being focused on their watches and tapping their feet as the aura tops them up. Don't they loot bodies?

See above replies. They don't think they should have to spend their resources when the spell costs nothing more than a slot. They don't charge for their class abilities that benefit the rest of the party, why should they pay money so the cleric can hoard his? The Bard is liberal with her music, the rogue listens to the bad advice of the party. I doubt there is a distinction to them.



Bards can heal, and they can spontaneously convert any spell slot into any healing spell they know as well. Taking the healing domain grants a whole +1 HP at most, and at 19th level, that only applies to Cure Critical Wounds.

This is true, but it still costs more for the Bard if we consider Spell Slots as resources. I was using most of those as an example as to why they expected the Cleric to heal.

Don't get me wrong, guys. I was pretty neutral on the conflict as a whole, and saw both their points, and I personally hate playing Clerics because everyone expects them to be Healbots. I've just got to play devil's advocate for much of this. I'll say something along the lines of "its his character, buddy" if it comes up again, and I'll handwave the fact that they have to stay within 10 feet for the entirety of those couple minutes despite attempting to do other things.

Codemus
2011-06-17, 03:52 PM
Intresting conversation. I actualy support the rest of the party however. Mostly, because I am picturing this from a roleplay point of view. Lets say the Rogue/Thief Acrobat gets dropped to 1 or 2. He is hurt badly. He knows that the cleric has healing spells that could help him recover sooner, rather than later.

Yeah, the fast healing would heal him to full *eventualy*. Key word there. If I were stabbed, I'd want it patched up soon as possible. It dosen't specify weather or not fast healing removes all the pain from those wounds either, so he could be in pain during all that time.

Meh, just the way I see it.

Sewercop
2011-06-17, 04:03 PM
Edit: I'm editing my post to address some of the less inflammatory posts that were put up.



Here's the thing. I'm arguing on behalf of the rest of the party because I understand their points, and they can't be here to defend themselves when directly insulted.

What is the one thing the Core, non-cheesed Cleric can do better than ANY other class? Heal. They can spontaneously convert spells into heals. They can take a healing domain. His PrC was centered around improving his heal spells. He had EIGHT fourth-level spells prepared, one of which was a domain spell from, *gasp* HEALING.

Why use up permanent resources when you have a renewable resource right there? Potions and other use-limited healing items were in reserve for when the Cleric went down and needed to be patched up or when he (as happened during the following fight) was removed due to a Maze spell. How much sense would it make to use up all your limited healing resources when a healing-based build was right there and could do it better?

Why would it make more sense for the BARD to heal? He doesn't get Cure Serious until 10th level, the Cleric got it at 5th. The Bard could cast maybe 5 3rd level spells. The Cleric could cast twice that many, AND get a bonus to it.

I don't get how having the Bard scry instead of the sorcerer has any bearing on the whole situation. Nevermind the fact that they already knew what awaited them AND the next area couldn't be scried anyway.

As for tank, you missed the Advanced, Augmented, Legendary Bear Effigy with more HP and AC then any of them, plus DR 15. The cleric was not playing tank. He was playing stay away and cast spells at him while the DPS goes in and flanks.

Nice way to make assumptions about the group. The Death Slaad was a story-related NPC and was a mostly non-negotiable factor given what the players already knew. Because I was playing that, I wasn't going to bring in another NPC to play a healer when there was a character that was focused on it.

You called effectively everyone in my entire group a moron, because you have some crazy notions about how everyone should play their characters. The most humorous thing is that the biggest reason they got zinged in that battle was because the Cleric cast a spell that dealt 20d6 to anything taking a hostile action, except the enemy whose SR he failed against. The second funniest thing? That enemy was a Solar.

I didn't mind people saying "he can do what he wants, that time isn't that important." But you crossed a line, methinks. I've been learning to take criticism, but insulting people you don't even know is unacceptable where I'm from.


I dont tell people how to play, thats for theyre own choosing. But i do tell what i think is stupid to do.

Spell slots are more valuable than a potion or ten when you are fighting epic monsters.

Then again, a death slaad n(dm)pc(you listed as a player) and a super boosted bear wasnt really what you stated.. And that they knew what they were going to fight is kinda important info.

Against a solar.. Chug a potion before battle or expend resources? Easy choice. That the cleric messed up in the battle.. Does not change anything. He still did the right thing IMO.

You advocate the other players, I understand that. I just dont agree, at all.

Sewercop
2011-06-17, 04:05 PM
Intresting conversation. I actualy support the rest of the party however. Mostly, because I am picturing this from a roleplay point of view. Lets say the Rogue/Thief Acrobat gets dropped to 1 or 2. He is hurt badly. He knows that the cleric has healing spells that could help him recover sooner, rather than later.

Yeah, the fast healing would heal him to full *eventualy*. Key word there. If I were stabbed, I'd want it patched up soon as possible. It dosen't specify weather or not fast healing removes all the pain from those wounds either, so he could be in pain during all that time.

Meh, just the way I see it.

Hmm, You are lvl 19. If you hit 1 or 2 hp you should have at least one heal potion. How did you survie so far?

Hiro Protagonest
2011-06-17, 04:10 PM
Against a solar.. Chug a potion before battle or expend resources? Easy choice. That the cleric messed up in the battle.. Does not change anything. He still did the right thing IMO.

{Scrubbed} Ursus said this guy doesn't heal in combat, but his fast healing aura heals them up full before the next combat.

Sewercop
2011-06-17, 04:16 PM
{Scrubbed]Ursus said this guy doesn't heal in combat, but his fast healing aura heals them up full before the next combat.

Healing in combat are in average worse than continuing with offense. So him doing that i kinda agree to. If another player are in dire straits, then you heal. Being down 40hp of 120total are not dire straits.

And what i mean are that a 4th lvl spell slot is more worth than a cure critical potion. By far...

Douglas
2011-06-17, 04:19 PM
Thats my personal train of thought. Fast healing's thing is that its supposed to be gradual healing, not complete HP refreshment between battles.
No, Fast Healing's thing is that it's (usually) supposed to be fast enough to be potentially relevant in combat despite being automatic, constant, and actionless. Given the time scale of combat, that necessarily means that it's usually a free full heal between battles, and that is why it is usually very difficult for PCs to acquire. The healing aura in question, which I believe is from a certain PrC in the Book of Exalted Deeds, is one of a very small handful of ways for PCs to acquire perpetual fast healing, and it's the capstone or near capstone of a 10 level PrC with requirements that IIRC would require more than 5 pre-PrC levels to meet without early entry tricks. The amount of character build resources that have to be spent to get it is quite substantial, and in my opinion easily enough to justify free between-battle healing to full.

Narren
2011-06-17, 04:40 PM
The party leader needs to call the cleric into his office, sit him down, and in a non-confrontational manner ask him how he sees his role in the party, what he considers to be the expectations are of his job, and where he sees his career as a cleric going. Then the party leader can bring up the issues the other party members have noted, and approach the situation in a coaching manner, not a confrontational one.

1. Describe the Cleric's specific performance issues

* Talk about the issues, not about the Cleric's poor effort.
* Describe the results of the Cleric's performance.

2. Describe the expected standards of Adventurer performance

Be specific. Don't say you have a "poor" attitude; instead list specific occurrences that illustrate problematic behavior.

3. Determine the cause of the performance issues

* Does the Cleric lack training, skills, knowledge?
* Is there a lack of motivation, incentive?
* Are there external factors involved (family, financial, etc.)?
* Are there factors beyond the Cleric's control affecting the performance?

4. Ask the Cleric for solution(s)

What could the Cleric do to improve this situation?

5. Discuss each solution with the Cleric

* How will this solution help with the Cleric's problem?
* Discuss your solution(s).
* Try to jointly improve upon the solutions.

6. Agree on specific actions to be done and a time frame to implement them

Arrange for another meeting in the future to track the progress/results of the solution.

Somebody has been taking industrial/organizational psychology classes. :smalltongue:

askandarion
2011-06-17, 05:12 PM
I wasn't being terribly subtle. The group, with the exception of him, was constantly expecting consecutive fights. They were travelling, pursued by fiends, to thwart the plans of Demogorgon. They knew full well things weren't going to fight fair. I made that clear with the first fight of the module.
--------
See above replies. They don't think they should have to spend their resources when the spell costs nothing more than a slot. They don't charge for their class abilities that benefit the rest of the party, why should they pay money so the cleric can hoard his? The Bard is liberal with her music, the rogue listens to the bad advice of the party. I doubt there is a distinction to them.

So they were expecting you to double-whack them, constantly. Yes, their desire for faster healing is reasonable in that sense. And I wasn't saying they (the party) specifically had to be the ones to shell out their money- although most games I've been in, the group shells out anyway, even if the cleric/healer IS a band-aid, because "Hey, more healing!/CMA in case the cleric goes down/get the cleric back up in case he goes down/we'd rather the cleric have the spell resources to use as chosen instead of having to drop everything for cures."

As an IC discussion, it's perfectly normal. If it's actually building up OOC resentment, ask both sides to calm down and give a little ground. No, it wouldn't kill the cleric to pop out a couple of spells, especially if they can get hold of a metamagic wand to boost the numbers. Using the cleric's aura only can be reasonable.. in a vacuum. The circumstances around your game (non-optimization-focused party?, hard-rushing encounters instead of a leisurely pace) would have a more reasonable person adapting. Compromise is a wonderful thing... if both sides agree.

This kind of reminds me of someone I play with- chose cleric, tends to avoid healing when possible. Almost always chooses to do things that are contrary to the party's benefit, typically not for any good reason, just from boredom. No attachment to the characters they play, so they don't care about walking into a dragon's lair or killing a group of people over misunderstandings after repeated requests to stand down for multiple reasons. It happens. I haven't heard that the cleric is that severe, so just talk to him. If you're running a game where people will die if they always have to wait a few minutes to be fully healed up, TELL him. If no one's died yet, ask the party to calm down a bit. Yes, it'd suck to have their character die. Give them the options to avoid that death if the cleric is failing at his healing function.

I guess the point of all that rambling is that the sides (including the DM) might benefit from understanding the variation in their playstyles, and maybe discuss them and compromise (bit more healing from the cleric, bit more tolerance from the group, bit more willingness to adjust the DM style).

I don't know why the cleric's holding back, so I can't think of anything better to say.

EDIT- I will say there seems to be an expectaction from the cleric (and discussion in this forum) of self-reliance from the characters, and more of a group-oriented attitude from the rest of the party. Is that correct?

TheCountAlucard
2011-06-17, 05:28 PM
A similar sort of scenario applied back when I was playing a Cleric; the GM was using a mana-based system, and thanks to all the stuff I'd taken, Cure Light Wounds (along with about half a dozen other first-level spells) cost me absolutely nothing to cast. Thus, I had close to no incentive to burn mana on higher-powered healing spells, even during combat.

And I didn't. I made the party realize that there was much more benefit to be had from the buffs I could bestow on them.

Literally the only times I'd ever bothered to use mana on healing spells, over the entire campaign, was a Mass Cure Light Wounds, and a Heal, both of which I'd cast when fighting a literal army of ninjas. :smallannoyed:

Codemus
2011-06-17, 05:42 PM
Hmm, You are lvl 19. If you hit 1 or 2 hp you should have at least one heal potion. How did you survie so far?

I'm level 19? I didn't realize. I don't even know what class I am. I'm pretty sure I neglected to buy potions too. :smalltongue:

But yeah, I should have clarified. I meant that little scenario to be something like, after a battle with no more threats to their hp.

Oh, on another tangent, considering what Ursus said about where they are and where they are going, I'd think potions would be a much greater resource to withhold than spells. I mean, unless they pass a potion shop in the middle of nowhere or one of them happens to have Brew Potion and the necessary ingredients, those guys aren’t going to find any more. Unless one of them has something crazy like a Belt of Infinate Potions or something. (which dosen't exist to my knowledge, but it would be pretty cool)

Randel
2011-06-17, 05:52 PM
There is also the healing belt from Magic Item Compendium. I think they cost about 500 gp and can heal 3d6 damage per day (they aren't one-use items like potions). If you guys are level 19 then you should be able to afford a whole boatload of those things, double that if anyone has the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

Just buy a whole bunch of healing belts, distribute them to the players who want to complain about not being healed up instantly, and then let them heal themselves if they feel the need to be instantly healed instead of waiting three minutes.

Heatwizard
2011-06-17, 06:07 PM
Is the guy prepping heal spells, and then not using them for the sake of conserving resources? I mean, they go away at the end of the day, you might as well spend 'em. And, in fact, what's the harm if you run out of heal? You've got an aura to keep everyone topped off. Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but between two casters and two sneaky-types, no one's in a position to soak damage. At 19th level, do you honestly have such critical need for every single spell you have prepped, you can't spare a single cure to keep squishier teammates in comfortable HP?

I think he is being too conservative with his resources. However, that being said, I suspect you could solve this problem by sticking a Cure Whatever wand or two in the pockets of their next enemies.

Re'ozul
2011-06-17, 06:20 PM
I have to admit that in this situation I'd be foremost interested in the reasons of the cleric-player.
He chose to start with a healing attitude from what I can gather, even going so far to PrC into a healing class.
But now he wants to blast mainly (ineptly from what I can gather) and not heal more than is absolutely necessary.

I'd be interested as to the reason of this shift in interest?
Was he disillusioned on how badly healing scales before the actual Heal spell?
Did he find himself bored by the repetetive task having thought that he would be the valiant positive ebergy thrower that consistently pulls back people from the brink of death only to have everyone else play careful enough that this was not necessary resulting in boredom and a feeling that he wasn't actually contributing.

Something created a dissonance between what he thought healing would mean for both him and the group and what it eventually did.
Maybe that would be a better point to start the investigation than the current playstyle.

Greenish
2011-06-17, 06:45 PM
The bard in question eventually grumbled and used a few potions, but it left a bad taste in the mouth for a while.That's why you should check the "best before" dates.

Ursus the Grim
2011-06-17, 06:47 PM
That's why you should check the "best before" dates.

I just have the most amazing ability to set people up for puns. I'd respond to the rest, but I need to mull over it and figure a response without just rehashing things I've said.

Warlawk
2011-06-17, 06:57 PM
Yeah, the fast healing would heal him to full *eventualy*. Key word there. If I were stabbed, I'd want it patched up soon as possible. It dosen't specify weather or not fast healing removes all the pain from those wounds either, so he could be in pain during all that time.

Meh, just the way I see it.

If I were an adventurer, where being stabbed is literally part of my job description, being in pain for the matter of less than 3 minutes suddenly becomes less of a deciding factor. Let me just add a different perspective on to your statement.

If I were stabbed and not in any serious danger of death or permanent injury, and I knew that chances are good I will be in a literal life and death situation possibly just minutes in the future, I would want the one person with resources to save me to conserve those resources until they are really truly needed.

Granted, if I'm at 10/120 HP, I would probably pester the cleric to throw a low level spell or two at me since we are expecting attack any time. As a separate consideration, if I couldn't be troubled to pick up a wand of lesser vigor or something I probably shouldn't complain too much.

Bottom line for the OP, it's not your place to tell a player how to play his character. If the others have that big a problem with it then one of them needs to play a healbot because the cleric in question doesn't want to. He devoted a lot of his build resources to ensure that everyone has constant access to reliable healing, and seems to be more than willing to try and keep people from dieing, but not to pamper their comfort level otherwise. The other players need to step back and realize they're throwing a tantrum because he isn't playing his character the way they think he should. Then they should realize that's an extremely rude way to treat a friend and gaming companion.

Mordar
2011-06-17, 08:52 PM
The party leader needs to call the cleric into his office, sit him down, and in a non-confrontational manner ask him how he sees his role in the party, what he considers to be the expectations are of his job, and where he sees his career as a cleric going. Then the party leader can bring up the issues the other party members have noted, and approach the situation in a coaching manner, not a confrontational one.

Now be honest...are you an HR drone, or did you just go through supervisor training? :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2011-06-17, 09:19 PM
The party leader needs to call the cleric into his office, sit him down, and in a non-confrontational manner ask him how he sees his role in the party, what he considers to be the expectations are of his job, and where he sees his career as a cleric going. Then the party leader can bring up the issues the other party members have noted, and approach the situation in a coaching manner, not a confrontational one.


That's in-character, right? It sounds like the party has sat down to play a relaxing game of Cubicles and Co-Workers.

Ursus the Grim
2011-06-17, 10:03 PM
Is the guy prepping heal spells, and then not using them for the sake of conserving resources? I mean, they go away at the end of the day, you might as well spend 'em. And, in fact, what's the harm if you run out of heal? You've got an aura to keep everyone topped off. Plus, correct me if I'm wrong, but between two casters and two sneaky-types, no one's in a position to soak damage. At 19th level, do you honestly have such critical need for every single spell you have prepped, you can't spare a single cure to keep squishier teammates in comfortable HP?

I think he is being too conservative with his resources. However, that being said, I suspect you could solve this problem by sticking a Cure Whatever wand or two in the pockets of their next enemies.

That's the aspect of their view that I agree with. Even if he doesn't have them prepared, he can spontaneously cast cures. He doesn't need to ration them, and he doesn't use his lower level slots for anything else. The thing with wands though is that if its a cheap wand, they'll need time to heal up using it, thus they might as well use the fast healing aura. The other problem is that chances are they'd give it to the cleric (because the player is the best at tracking notes and inventory) and thus, we'd be right back to square one. "Why should we waste charges when you can just stand there for a while?"


There is also the healing belt from Magic Item Compendium. I think they cost about 500 gp and can heal 3d6 damage per day (they aren't one-use items like potions). If you guys are level 19 then you should be able to afford a whole boatload of those things, double that if anyone has the Craft Wondrous Item feat.

Just buy a whole bunch of healing belts, distribute them to the players who want to complain about not being healed up instantly, and then let them heal themselves if they feel the need to be instantly healed instead of waiting three minutes.

I'm the DM, so its not me buying anything or distributing it to the party. The group's not used to high level play or any of the little tricks you can pull. NONE of them have any extradimensional storage spaces, so buying a ton of belts would be an issue. Plus, by the time they were to take out the belt, put it on, activate it, remove it, change belt, repeat, it would hardly be instantaneous healing.



Oh, on another tangent, considering what Ursus said about where they are and where they are going, I'd think potions would be a much greater resource to withhold than spells. I mean, unless they pass a potion shop in the middle of nowhere or one of them happens to have Brew Potion and the necessary ingredients, those guys aren’t going to find any more. Unless one of them has something crazy like a Belt of Infinate Potions or something. (which dosen't exist to my knowledge, but it would be pretty cool)

I give my players some OP stuff on occasion (+5 Dagger of Slay Living, lol) but no Belt of Infinite Potions. Their presence on Pandemonium is only temporary, but they're going to another plane soon. They could Plane Sift back to the Material and Plane Shift back, but that would defeat the purpose of the Cleric wanting to preserve his spells, wouldn't it? Gold requires effort to earn, spells require time.


A similar sort of scenario applied back when I was playing a Cleric; the GM was using a mana-based system, and thanks to all the stuff I'd taken, Cure Light Wounds (along with about half a dozen other first-level spells) cost me absolutely nothing to cast. Thus, I had close to no incentive to burn mana on higher-powered healing spells, even during combat.

And I didn't. I made the party realize that there was much more benefit to be had from the buffs I could bestow on them.

Literally the only times I'd ever bothered to use mana on healing spells, over the entire campaign, was a Mass Cure Light Wounds, and a Heal, both of which I'd cast when fighting a literal army of ninjas.
:smallannoyed:

One problem with that analogy is that you mention you didn't cast healing spells at the cost of mana. But you mentioned your Cure Light Wounds did not cost anything to cast. You didn't neglect that from the sounds of it. Sure, its not much, but d8+Level per round is more than 2 per round.

Again, he's also not really buffing, that's what the Bard's been doing (instead of casting Cure Spells), he's been attempting SoDs in combat and not curing out of it. Or in it for that matter, but I can understand that sentiment.



I guess the point of all that rambling is that the sides (including the DM) might benefit from understanding the variation in their playstyles, and maybe discuss them and compromise (bit more healing from the cleric, bit more tolerance from the group, bit more willingness to adjust the DM style).

I don't know why the cleric's holding back, so I can't think of anything better to say.

EDIT- I will say there seems to be an expectaction from the cleric (and discussion in this forum) of self-reliance from the characters, and more of a group-oriented attitude from the rest of the party. Is that correct?

Your edit hits it right on, and its really why I haven't directly interceded. If it were, say the Rogue or the Assassin suggesting a "fend for yourselves" approach, it wouldn't be an issue. Instead, its the Exalted Lawful Good Healing Cleric that isn't willing to cast a spell or two to speed up the process.


The healing aura in question, which I believe is from a certain PrC in the Book of Exalted Deeds, is one of a very small handful of ways for PCs to acquire perpetual fast healing, and it's the capstone or near capstone of a 10 level PrC with requirements that IIRC would require more than 5 pre-PrC levels to meet without early entry tricks. The amount of character build resources that have to be spent to get it is quite substantial, and in my opinion easily enough to justify free between-battle healing to full.

Correct on all accounts. I actually hadn't considered the investment into the build that it took just to get that Fast Healing effect, and will be something I keep in mind when I next talk to the players if it comes up.


Healing in combat are in average worse than continuing with offense. So him doing that i kinda agree to. If another player are in dire straits, then you heal. Being down 40hp of 120total are not dire straits.

And what i mean are that a 4th lvl spell slot is more worth than a cure critical potion. By far...

40 hp when a full attack would deal another 160 kind of is, though. And what grounds do you have for saying a 4th level slot is more valuable than a Cure Critical Wounds potion? Last I checked, you get multiple spells each day at that level, they come back the next day, require the caster to not be disabled, and are normally free. You are technically limited on the number of potions you can carry, they don't require the Cleric to be conscious, they carry a very real gold piece cost (which accounts for the expenditure of xp in creating the item) and don't magically come back the next day.


Hmm, You are lvl 19. If you hit 1 or 2 hp you should have at least one heal potion. How did you survie so far?

They do. About eight or nine potions each. Versus the Cleric who has potentially dozens of heal spells.


I dont tell people how to play, thats for theyre own choosing. But i do tell what i think is stupid to do.

Spell slots are more valuable than a potion or ten when you are fighting epic monsters.

Then again, a death slaad n(dm)pc(you listed as a player) and a super boosted bear wasnt really what you stated.. And that they knew what they were going to fight is kinda important info.

Against a solar.. Chug a potion before battle or expend resources? Easy choice. That the cleric messed up in the battle.. Does not change anything. He still did the right thing IMO.

You advocate the other players, I understand that. I just dont agree, at all.

My point is not so much that you're telling people how to play, its that you're insulting people based on criteria you assume that you are entitled to set. A lot of people have pointed out that the cleric is right, but you're the only one who has decided to insult people you don't know because you think they're wrong. If I were in a better mood, I'd make a joke about being able to detect Rudeness because I'm American and have an affinity for it. But I'm not going to bother.

The Assassin went on the player list because I don't play my NPCs any different than I play players. I play them roughly as smart or as dumb as I would if I had no information about the campaign. If you had asked for the full party makeup, I would have told you, and I believe I did indeed state that the Sorcerer was an Effigy Master. It would stand to reason that the Effigy Master has a *gasp* Effigy! And what are big tin cans with no skills or abilities but tons of HP and AC generally used for?

I don't understand why you fail to realize that single-use magical items that cost money to obtain are resources, even more so than a spell is. Spells come back in the morning, potions do not.

Furthermore, I explicitly stated that I understood the view of both parties. Its only because you insulted 3 of my closest friends and peers that I may appear to be "advocating" them.

I understand why Swift's reply was scrubbed, but I'm almost inclined to agree with him as you continue.


Intresting conversation. I actualy support the rest of the party however. Mostly, because I am picturing this from a roleplay point of view.

Yeah, the fast healing would heal him to full *eventualy*. Key word there. If I were stabbed, I'd want it patched up soon as possible. It dosen't specify weather or not fast healing removes all the pain from those wounds either, so he could be in pain during all that time.

This is true, and something I hadn't considered. The players are generally good about going "please help me, I'm about to die" and the gravity of situations tends to kick in appropriately. At single digits, I doubt the cleric would withhold healing spells. But they had taken enough to be hurt, but not grievously so.


That's in-character, right? It sounds like the party has sat down to play a relaxing game of Cubicles and Co-Workers.

Hey, as long as no one pulls an Office Space on the gaming table, it could be worse.

In Closing:
If it comes up again, I will touch on the fact that its not necessarily the Cleric's obligation to heal them, and point out that the Bard is perfectly capable of healing independently. I will, however, also mention to the Cleric that there is an expectation that people tend to have when one plays a Healing-oriented Cleric. They have only one more encounter to go (I cut a LOT of stuff out of the module) so it likely won't come up again, but I figured I'd pick the playground's brains for a while. I've been coming to terms with DMing for a group of people I am still getting to know, people outside my family and childhood friends and there have been personality conflicts. I appreciate everyone's (well, almost everyone's) input and advice on dealing with personality conflicts both in this thread and in the Promiscuous thread and the myriad threads I made concerning the mechanics.

Quietus
2011-06-17, 10:12 PM
I think there's a line there, and it cuts all over the place. If a character is in-combat and about to die, yeah, there's a pressing need for healing RIGHT NAO OH NOES THE CLAW IS COMING.

If it's after combat, and they're at 10/120 HP, and there might be reinforcements for the baddies on the way, a quick top-up might be in order.

If it's after combat, and they're at 10/120 HP, but you can dump a cure light/moderate or two to give it a kick-start just in case, cool.

If it's after combat, and they're at 80/120 HP, and you KNOW something is coming and it might be scary, dropping a Cure Serious/Critical may become worth considering. Depends on how lethal the something is.

If it's after combat, and they're at 80/120 HP, and it's unlikely something's coming, and they're just griping because they don't want to wait.. tell them to chill.

TheCountAlucard
2011-06-17, 10:16 PM
One problem with that analogy is that you mention you didn't cast healing spells at the cost of mana.One of the reasons I said "similar" situation, not "same."


But you mentioned your Cure Light Wounds did not cost anything to cast. You didn't neglect that from the sounds of it.What I'm getting at is that I didn't focus on healing my allies in combat; plus since it's my piddliest, useable-at-will form of healing that costs me nothing, it may well be equated to his fast healing aura. And I only cast the Mass version of that spell when multiple party members were about to die.


Sure, its not much, but d8+Level per round is more than 2 per round.True, but it also only heals one person at a time, and has a pretty low cap on how much it can heal; I imagine that if we honestly timed how long it would take for my character to patch up the rest of the party from a somewhat-grueling fight, it'd still probably take about the same amount of time as your cleric's fast healing aura.

Still, I appreciate that since he's trying to SoD it up, he's probably not being the best he could be.

Ursus the Grim
2011-06-17, 10:18 PM
I think there's a line there, and it cuts all over the place. If a character is in-combat and about to die, yeah, there's a pressing need for healing RIGHT NAO OH NOES THE CLAW IS COMING.

If it's after combat, and they're at 10/120 HP, and there might be reinforcements for the baddies on the way, a quick top-up might be in order.

If it's after combat, and they're at 10/120 HP, but you can dump a cure light/moderate or two to give it a kick-start just in case, cool.

If it's after combat, and they're at 80/120 HP, and you KNOW something is coming and it might be scary, dropping a Cure Serious/Critical may become worth considering. Depends on how lethal the something is.

If it's after combat, and they're at 80/120 HP, and it's unlikely something's coming, and they're just griping because they don't want to wait.. tell them to chill.

In this case, the formerly deific Titan beyond the portal could have easily warranted the third case, considering the sheer damage he dished out. They were actually operating under the assumption that he could come out through the gate and attack them while they were resting. Now, according to the story, he actually could not leave, even with the gate open, so it fell pretty squarely within the fourth case, but, and this is the important thing, the party didn't know that.



One of the reasons I said "similar" situation, not "same."

What I'm getting at is that I didn't focus on healing my allies in combat; plus since it's my piddliest, useable-at-will form of healing that costs me nothing, it may well be equated to his fast healing aura. And I only cast the Mass version of that spell when multiple party members were about to die.

True, but it also only heals one person at a time, and has a pretty low cap on how much it can heal; I imagine that if we honestly timed how long it would take for my character to patch up the rest of the party from a somewhat-grueling fight, it'd still probably take about the same amount of time as your cleric's fast healing aura.

Still, I appreciate that since he's trying to SoD it up, he's probably not being the best he could be.

Yeah, I didn't mean to completely dismiss your examples. Sorry about that, especially because its up there in the growing list of good points people have made. I wasn't even trying to say he's not being effective or anything, just saying that because he hasn't been doing much buffing he had a ton of spells.

Heatwizard
2011-06-18, 01:08 AM
The other problem is that chances are they'd give it to the cleric (because the player is the best at tracking notes and inventory) and thus, we'd be right back to square one. "Why should we waste charges when you can just stand there for a while?"

Alright, I am not a DM, or even a terribly experienced player, but here is what I would do; I'd hand the bard a cure wand, put it directly into his hands, and I would say, out of character, "This is for topping off party health in a hurry, so the cleric doesn't have to use his slots. You hold onto this for when you guys think you need it and the cleric doesn't want to oblige."

I mean, the man is wasting spell slots and that's terrible, but that's a messier sort of thing to try and modify.

Coidzor
2011-06-18, 01:19 AM
Why are you all roleplaying out the 3 minutes it takes to heal everyone?

Heatwizard
2011-06-18, 01:29 AM
Why are you all roleplaying out the 3 minutes it takes to heal everyone?

The other players are paranoid that they will not have three minutes before something else jumps them.

Typewriter
2011-06-18, 01:38 AM
For the record I can see both sides of the argument as well, but the question I keep coming back to - the one that makes me side with the cleric is - what's the harm?

You said the first encounter you had a second encounter immediately after. One event does not make a trend, so why change play style over something that happened once.

How much would casting heal spells actually help? If the group has a 10% chance to get attacked in 1 minute you can either conserve your spells while allowing your aura to work - and then pull out the big guns in the off chance that they get attacked again - or you can expend low level resources healing and ultimately only wind up healing an additional, what, 100 HP over the entire party? That just strikes me as a waste of time, especially when I think about the fact that (unless someone is in the process of dying) the party is probably thinking more about loot and or rest after the fight than "Got to get back up to full ASAP in case another challenger appears from nowhere". Sure, you could use high level spells but that just kind of sucks for him doesn't it?

What is the downside of him doing things the way he has been doing? From everything you've said there is none - just potential. Potential that you've briefly mentioned activating just to get him to do things everyone else's way.

If there's no downside, if this is optimal, if it's what he wants, and if it's nobody else's business why are they getting in his face about it?

Coidzor
2011-06-18, 01:45 AM
The other players are paranoid that they will not have three minutes before something else jumps them.

So they spend 10 minutes out of game arguing? What is wrong with these people?

It takes like 5 seconds to say! 5 seconds! Or less!

Hmm.

I'm reminded of a saying "The beatings will continue until morale improves"

Heatwizard
2011-06-18, 02:53 AM
So they spend 10 minutes out of game arguing? What is wrong with these people?

It takes like 5 seconds to say! 5 seconds! Or less!

Hmm.

I'm reminded of a saying "The beatings will continue until morale improves"

No, that there won't be three in-game minutes. The concern is that relying on fast healing alone will leave them wide open if a fight finds them, or if they're racing against the clock or something.

PersonMan
2011-06-18, 04:16 AM
No, that there won't be three in-game minutes. The concern is that relying on fast healing alone will leave them wide open if a fight finds them, or if they're racing against the clock or something.

Yeah, from what I've read it seems like the other players/characters are worried about being attacked, say, 30 seconds into those 3 minutes and being vulnerable.

Shadowknight12
2011-06-18, 04:27 AM
Yeah, from what I've read it seems like the other players/characters are worried about being attacked, say, 30 seconds into those 3 minutes and being vulnerable.

He could give the healer a Wisdom check to gauge whether they're likely to be interrupted by enemies. The DC should vary from the very obvious (DC 5, "we were just attacked and I hear more of them coming down the hall") to the truly arcane (DC 25+, "this looks like a good place to rest!).

If the healer is still unwilling to heal after he's been told that he won't have enough time for his fast-healing aura to work, it's time to sit down and talk to him, to find out what's the problem and how to solve it.

darkpuppy
2011-06-18, 08:30 AM
Yeah, it's definitely a case of "if there's something big coming, lay the heals."

I can see both viewpoints here, and both have certain amounts of validity, but one thing you have made clear is that the blasty spells he currently prays for do not get past SR, which a boatload of things at the level you seem to be playing at have. This is usually the time where a cleric either invests in "No save f**kyouken" blasties, or buffs for the party combined with heals.

It would appear to be a play-style conflict, and both parties have both validity to some of their arguments, and just sheer cussedness in other areas, but I would recommend the following:-

1) Sit the player down. If he reads the forums much, he's prolly annoyed that you brought this up here, because, let's face it, starting the thread with "Dude, it's about you" was not the smartest move. As helpful as asking for help on this may or may not be, that was, even as politely phrased as it was, something you need to apologise for. And I'm surprised not many people, if any, have pointed this out.

2) Give him the following straight dope. First, his blasty spells are going up against serious SR from this point on, so blasty, while possibly IC, is no longer as effective as it might be. Give him the concession that you will give him fair warning (when possible) of imminent encounter, but let him know that he does have to look at these situations, because he seems to believe 3 minutes is plenty of time in the Planes. And it just plain isn't. Show him how buffs can help the party, because, at high levels, I would more expect clerics to buff than blast or heal. Good example: you mentioned somebody taking 40 damage per hit. With a DR spell on the heavy hitter, a stealthing spell on the assassin, something that gives everyone less chance of getting hit/damaged, everyone wins.

3) DM Style wise: I know the need for tension. The players dd not, as you correctly pointed out, know that that Titan couldn't go through the gate. That's good. But you're also mentioning a lot of "The players are roleplaying the 3 minutes because they're paranoid about encounters." Solution to that is simple, if not as tense. You narrate past it. The fight ends, and 3 minutes pass, if you're not gonna hit them with a second fight in that time. GM descriptions should give clues, but they should also give breaks. One important thing with breaks is that all important safety valve for tension, because right now, your players are most likely a bundle of nerves. They've invested in their characters, they don't wanna see themselves fumble at the nine yard line... so give them that odd "3 minutes pass, woot, you're all better now" (obviously better described than that, but yeah, the general gist is there.)

4) Player wise: Optimisation aside (I always hate the whole "Nyer, nyer, you have to be optimised" mindset, so keep this in mind), the players are right to say "Hey, there are some situations where a heal is more effective", but from the sounds of things, they're beating him over the head with it, and this player sounds like the kind of guy who will dig in on the general principle of "I don't like being beaten over the head with things". So they should chill. This, combined with 2, may well help.

But yeah, that's a tense situation that could be best dealt with by everyone, player, GM, and other players, taking it down a notch and discussing it calmly.

My two cp, hope it helps you, and may the group continue to thrive!

Talya
2011-06-18, 08:55 AM
On the, "Its only a level 4 spell and we were about to enter a portal to fight the BBEG" argument...

How about, instead, "It's only 3 minutes of aura-healing, and wouldn't you rather have one more of the following spells when fighting the BBEG: Air Walk, Death Ward, Dismissal, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Weapon, Spell Immunity, Mystic Aegis, Delay Death, Lesser Holy/Infernal Transformation, Recitation, or Mass Shield of Faith?

tyckspoon
2011-06-18, 09:06 AM
Correct on all accounts. I actually hadn't considered the investment into the build that it took just to get that Fast Healing effect, and will be something I keep in mind when I next talk to the players if it comes up.


Incidentally, if it's the class I just checked (Celestial Mystic, level 10 ability is a positive energy aura that grants Fast Healing 2 to living creatures)... it's not actually a healing class. That aura is the only thing that has anything to do with healing other people, and it mostly does that as a side benefit- almost all the other features are personal defenses for the Cleric, and the one that isn't is basically the Archmage's Arcane Fire ability.

Maryring
2011-06-18, 10:04 AM
:smallbiggrin:Switch to pathfinder. Cleric can now cast unlimited cure minor wounds spells. :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2011-06-18, 10:08 AM
:smallbiggrin:Switch to pathfinder. Cleric can now cast unlimited cure minor wounds spells. :smallbiggrin:

Except for the bit where they removed Cure Minor Wounds (it's replaced with Stabilize, IIRC) specifically because the Paizo designers don't believe in free healing either.

Urpriest
2011-06-18, 04:07 PM
On the, "Its only a level 4 spell and we were about to enter a portal to fight the BBEG" argument...

How about, instead, "It's only 3 minutes of aura-healing, and wouldn't you rather have one more of the following spells when fighting the BBEG: Air Walk, Death Ward, Dismissal, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Weapon, Spell Immunity, Mystic Aegis, Delay Death, Lesser Holy/Infernal Transformation, Recitation, or Mass Shield of Faith?

The level 4 spell was from the Healing Domain. So it's actually 3 minutes, or the possibility of using a sub-par healing spell in combat.

Randel
2011-06-18, 05:31 PM
Sorry if this question has been asked before but I'm curious exactly what the healers build is, just in case I want to play a character with a healing aura. The only tricks I know for free healing involve the Dread Necromancer and Tomb-tainted Soul or the reserve feat that lets you heal one person up to half their hit points.

Ursus the Grim
2011-06-18, 08:00 PM
You said the first encounter you had a second encounter immediately after. One event does not make a trend, so why change play style over something that happened once.

How much would casting heal spells actually help? If the group has a 10% chance to get attacked in 1 minute you can either conserve your spells while allowing your aura to work - and then pull out the big guns in the off chance that they get attacked again - or you can expend low level resources healing and ultimately only wind up healing an additional, what, 100 HP over the entire party? That just strikes me as a waste of time, especially when I think about the fact that (unless someone is in the process of dying) the party is probably thinking more about loot and or rest after the fight than "Got to get back up to full ASAP in case another challenger appears from nowhere". Sure, you could use high level spells but that just kind of sucks for him doesn't it?

If there's no downside, if this is optimal, if it's what he wants, and if it's nobody else's business why are they getting in his face about it?

I agree with the first part. They killed the thing that was supposed to harry them for a while, so I would expect them to chill. I have no further plans to sucker punch them, but they don't and can't know that. I can't just tell their characters what to think either.

The problem is that the other players expect there to be a downside. And seeing as how he is a part of a team, he is expected to contribute when asked. Just like the rogue should disable traps to let others through. Just like the Bard doesn't just buff himself. Just like the Slaad didn't keep his SLA's to himself and used them to bust said Cleric out of a Maze. Yes, yes, he is contributing, but in their eyes, he is holding out on them.


No, that there won't be three in-game minutes. The concern is that relying on fast healing alone will leave them wide open if a fight finds them, or if they're racing against the clock or something.


Yeah, from what I've read it seems like the other players/characters are worried about being attacked, say, 30 seconds into those 3 minutes and being vulnerable.

Their responses are accurate.


He could give the healer a Wisdom check to gauge whether they're likely to be interrupted by enemies. The DC should vary from the very obvious (DC 5, "we were just attacked and I hear more of them coming down the hall") to the truly arcane (DC 25+, "this looks like a good place to rest!).

If the healer is still unwilling to heal after he's been told that he won't have enough time for his fast-healing aura to work, it's time to sit down and talk to him, to find out what's the problem and how to solve it.

Not sure how that would appeal to the other players. I think there's a principal there that they are arguing on behalf of. *shrug*


Yeah, it's definitely a case of "if there's something big coming, lay the heals."

I can see both viewpoints here, and both have certain amounts of validity, but one thing you have made clear is that the blasty spells he currently prays for do not get past SR, which a boatload of things at the level you seem to be playing at have. This is usually the time where a cleric either invests in "No save f**kyouken" blasties, or buffs for the party combined with heals.

It would appear to be a play-style conflict, and both parties have both validity to some of their arguments, and just sheer cussedness in other areas, but I would recommend the following:-

1) Sit the player down. If he reads the forums much, he's prolly annoyed that you brought this up here, because, let's face it, starting the thread with "Dude, it's about you" was not the smartest move.

2) Give him the following straight dope.

3) DM Style wise: I know the need for tension. The players dd not, as you correctly pointed out, know that that Titan couldn't go through the gate. That's good. But you're also mentioning a lot of "The players are roleplaying the 3 minutes because they're paranoid about encounters."

4) Player wise: Optimisation aside (I always hate the whole "Nyer, nyer, you have to be optimised" mindset, so keep this in mind), the players are right to say "Hey, there are some situations where a heal is more effective", but from the sounds of things, they're beating him over the head with it, and this player sounds like the kind of guy who will dig in on the general principle of "I don't like being beaten over the head with things". So they should chill. This, combined with 2, may well help.

But yeah, that's a tense situation that could be best dealt with by everyone, player, GM, and other players, taking it down a notch and discussing it calmly.

My two cp, hope it helps you, and may the group continue to thrive!
1) Didn't think it was that big a deal. I figured I'd be honest if he opened it instead of trying to avoid it when he brought it up.

2)Good advice, but I think he is aware of all those factors. I can't tell him to heal his allies, if I were so inclined. I can hardly tell him to buff said allies if he hasn't already.

3)They're not necessarily roleplaying it out, they're just asking for a heal in case something pops up because I haven't erased the battlemat yet. They like to be healthy before looting and such and continuing the story.

4)Right again. He's actually the only somewhat optimized one there. All the more reason they get hit pretty hard. Both he and the Bard (primary antagonist) in the story tend to dig in their heels as they both have a right to, and have had some disagreements before. Granted, he gets over them a lot faster than the bard does, but I'm not trying to pick on anyone.


On the, "Its only a level 4 spell and we were about to enter a portal to fight the BBEG" argument...

How about, instead, "It's only 3 minutes of aura-healing, and wouldn't you rather have one more of the following spells when fighting the BBEG: Air Walk, Death Ward, Dismissal, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Greater Magic Weapon, Spell Immunity, Mystic Aegis, Delay Death, Lesser Holy/Infernal Transformation, Recitation, or Mass Shield of Faith?

He normally doesn't prepare non-core spells. So I think about half that list is gone. Air Walk is useless thanks to fly, Divine Power only helps him (and between blasting spells and being him-focused, wouldn't appease the rest of them), Dismissal doesn't work when you're on their plane, Greater Magic Weapon is less useful when their weapons are +4 or higher anyway, Spell Immunity is practically useless unless you know your enemy is tossing exact weak spells your way, and most of them have a deflection bonus to AC already. So there were about four spells on that list that would be useful, if he had prepared them, and he gets about eight spells at that level.

Plus the following reply from Urpriest,


The level 4 spell was from the Healing Domain. So it's actually 3 minutes, or the possibility of using a sub-par healing spell in combat.


Incidentally, if it's the class I just checked (Celestial Mystic, level 10 ability is a positive energy aura that grants Fast Healing 2 to living creatures)... it's not actually a healing class. That aura is the only thing that has anything to do with healing other people, and it mostly does that as a side benefit- almost all the other features are personal defenses for the Cleric, and the one that isn't is basically the Archmage's Arcane Fire ability.

You're right and it touches a bit on what douglas mentioned. I got it confused with Radiant Servant of Pelor, and when he was discussing choosing this or a Skylord build with me, he mentioned this build had better healing. Confusions and assumptions abound.


:smallbiggrin:Switch to pathfinder. Cleric can now cast unlimited cure minor wounds spells. :smallbiggrin:

I wouldn't be averse to Pathfinder, but I'm having enough trouble convincing one of the players to upgrade from 3.0 to 3.5. (Seriously, please stop trying to use your Scry skill. . . )


Sorry if this question has been asked before but I'm curious exactly what the healers build is, just in case I want to play a character with a healing aura. The only tricks I know for free healing involve the Dread Necromancer and Tomb-tainted Soul or the reserve feat that lets you heal one person up to half their hit points.

Not really a build. The PrC is Celestial Mystic from Book of Exalted Deeds.

Typewriter
2011-06-19, 12:00 AM
I agree with the first part. They killed the thing that was supposed to harry them for a while, so I would expect them to chill. I have no further plans to sucker punch them, but they don't and can't know that. I can't just tell their characters what to think either.

That's what I'm saying though - they can't and don't know one way or the other. The cleric is making a decision and there's nothing wrong with that. It shouldn't be your job to tell the other players "No, he's right, it's totally cool to just wait three minutes", but it's also not your job to tell the cleric, "Beware, it could happen any time, you really need to lay on the heals". The only thing you need to do in this situation is keep the conflict in character. I think it makes perfect sense for the characters to want heals, and for the cleric to want to conserve his might. In character, they both have their viewpoints and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem is that it's becoming an out of character argument in which the players are trying to tell the cleric to play differently - when they can't come up with a convincing argument in cahracter.



The problem is that the other players expect there to be a downside. And seeing as how he is a part of a team, he is expected to contribute when asked. Just like the rogue should disable traps to let others through. Just like the Bard doesn't just buff himself. Just like the Slaad didn't keep his SLA's to himself and used them to bust said Cleric out of a Maze. Yes, yes, he is contributing, but in their eyes, he is holding out on them.


I believe that every party member should contribute or risk getting kicked from the party. Contributing when asked? No. Especially when it's unreasonable, and from everything I've heard so far? There's no reason to waste the resources.

As I said in my first post in this thread if a party member tried to force me to help him more than I already thought was enough they would never get healed from me again. They would not be benefiting from my aura, they would not get a single cure light - in combat or out.

The cleric has healing covered just fine. There is no downside to the way he's doing things, yet the other players want more, to the point where they're complaining about him out of character.

This is not a case of the rogue refusing to defuse the traps, it's a case of the rogue pointing out the hallway that takes an extra 5 minutes to traverse that has no traps, doesn't require him to put his neck in the middle of whirling blades and poisonous gases, and ends at the same location as the trapped hallway.

Tyndmyr
2011-06-19, 12:26 AM
Yeah, from what I've read it seems like the other players/characters are worried about being attacked, say, 30 seconds into those 3 minutes and being vulnerable.

2*number of players is actually a pretty reasonable amount of healing per turn. Unless the party is pretty torn up indeed, and I have reasonable evidence that another fight is incoming(say, I hear something coming toward us), I'm gonna just wait it out.

After all, if you've got a person at 120/200 hp, and you get thirty seconds of OOC, well, they'll be at 130 hp then. Not shabby. Enough that they almost certainly won't die in round one(at least from lack of hp). If they get low in combat, I'll hit them then.

Sure, SoDs may not be the best of tactics, but when you burn through spells rapidly, keeping a selection of options open is valuable. You're playing a guessing game...you might need that exact spell later that day instead of converting it to a heal. Gotta conserve that.

I wouldn't actually assume that healing domain = healer. It's a reasonable core domain, and the ability isn't THAT much of a boost. I often see it get taken as a second domain because the person isn't sure what they want, and figure, hell, I'll at least get some use out of it.

Advising him to look into SR:no spells or ways to overcome SR might be in order if he's frustrated about his blasty spells not landing.

There's also two amulets that might help as well...and anyone can wear them. First off, we have the amulet of second chances. Can rewind time to the start of the turn, with all actions reset and effects undone, but everyone having full knowledge of what happened. Secondly, we have...I believe it's called the Amulet of Emergency healing. It heals up to 9 hp, and it takes place after someone drops below -10, but BEFORE they die. It's explicitly there to give a bigger buffer for not dying. Both are in MiC, and are quite reasonably priced. They're even fun things to have opponents have on them for a fight.

Either of those will lessen the chance of bad effects from not healing, while not forcing anyone to play differently.

Amridell
2011-06-19, 12:43 AM
Homebrew a monster that's attacks cannot be healed by fast healing. That would be pretty badly spliced together, but you do what you gotta do. The other thing I would do would be to take him aside and tell him:

"If you can't tell, the other players hate it that you never heal them. Somebody will die. You just need to heal them more, ok?"

If he doesn't oblige, send some huge monster to kill him in one hit. He can't heal that way. That's a last resort one, but sometimes, it must be done.

Tyndmyr
2011-06-19, 12:52 AM
Homebrew a monster that's attacks cannot be healed by fast healing. That would be pretty badly spliced together, but you do what you gotta do. The other thing I would do would be to take him aside and tell him:

Eh, that sounds suspiciously like targeting him. He might feel a bit ganged up on.

That said, there is vile damage. It can't be healed by regular healing either, though, so it's not going to help that much. He'll have to blow a consecrate AND a healing spell to heal it up. Use if appropriate(if BoED is in play, the opposite book should be fair game), but don't get too happy with it.

In the same vein, consider having some days in which there are a LOT of encounter, so spells get stretched thin. Not only is it good practice to cater to different people's playing styles at different times, variety makes so many decisions much more interesting. Back to back encounters can be an occasional thing, but again, only when appropriate.

Typewriter
2011-06-19, 11:06 AM
Homebrew a monster that's attacks cannot be healed by fast healing. That would be pretty badly spliced together, but you do what you gotta do. The other thing I would do would be to take him aside and tell him:

"If you can't tell, the other players hate it that you never heal them. Somebody will die. You just need to heal them more, ok?"

If he doesn't oblige, send some huge monster to kill him in one hit. He can't heal that way. That's a last resort one, but sometimes, it must be done.

So in a situation where the cleric isn't doing anything wrong you recommend going out of your way to punish him just so that he'll do things the way you want?

Raum
2011-06-19, 12:31 PM
Meh. This entire thread is why I prefer to avoid systems with such clear cut roles and associated expectations.

At it's root, you're asking one character take on a responsibility no one else appears to want. If they really want healing available on demand, they should play the healer.

Grytorm
2011-06-19, 12:42 PM
You could try having them argue in-character and time it. After a few minutes point out that they were fully healed.

Coidzor
2011-06-19, 02:39 PM
Their responses are accurate.

Probably would've been better to make that clear from the start, because you made it seem like no one had actually died from it (and he has 5th level spell slots he can have in reserve for that sort of thing anyway with no downside) and you've only pulled that sort of thing on them occasionally rather than making a regular habit of it.

Toofey
2011-06-20, 08:41 PM
Does he heal in combat? because if they want healing between combats when they'll heal from sitting near him for a few minutes is silly. if he doesn't heal during combat leading to tactical problems then I would agree with the party. speaking as a pc.

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-20, 09:27 PM
Homebrew a monster that's attacks cannot be healed by fast healing. That would be pretty badly spliced together, but you do what you gotta do. The other thing I would do would be to take him aside and tell him:

"If you can't tell, the other players hate it that you never heal them. Somebody will die. You just need to heal them more, ok?"

If he doesn't oblige, send some huge monster to kill him in one hit. He can't heal that way. That's a last resort one, but sometimes, it must be done.

NO.

No, no, no, no.

No, no no no nonononononononononono.

This is easily the worst advice I've ever seen in printed form.

Healing is totally unnecessary in-combat. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29) Further, who the hell are you to tell him how to play his class? Just because he's playing a class that has access to healing spells does NOT mean he's playing a healer.

And another thing: I'm sure if any of the players were ever in mortal danger, he'd toss a heal their way. Out of combat, with downtime to spare? He has a fast healing aura. They will be fine.

Magesmiley
2011-06-21, 10:35 AM
You know, there's a fine line between 'stingy' and wisely managing resources. Part of it really is in how people perceive things, and how expectations are managed.

Someone acting as a healer for a party has a tough job, they have to prioritize how to allocate their resources, often in a manner that doesn't satisfy everyone (i.e. the rogue is dying, but our main tank needs to keep standing to hold the bad stuff off, so the tank gets healing first). Which resources to allocate out of combat is an extension of this. Who gets healing, how, and when really is his decision. This gets worse when there are only a few resources left too. Others are free to try to convince him or suggest a course of actions, but its really up to him.

How would the others feel about him telling them how to use their abilities, and then getting angry when they wouldn't, for whatever reason? For example, if he insisted that a caster use a daily use from a metamagic rod, even if in their opinion, it wasn't needed for the spell, and they felt they'd need the uses later.

Honestly, they should be grateful that he put work into providing them with a way to be healed at all. He could've made a character and focused everything on making himself more powerful. Healers help out everyone in the group, making everyone else's characters better. And the other players upset that he isn't putting everything that his character can do into helping out their characters? How dare he?