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ExemplarofAvg
2011-06-18, 07:11 PM
I want to make a class that has all of the "Improved _____ Feats" and can use them well. (Disarm, Feint, Trip, Grapple, Bullrush, Overrun and Sunder) Thinking of drawing on monks unarmed strike and bonus Int to Dex and will have Full Bab, good Fort and Ref d10 HD, and 4+Int skills, as well as some way to gain the above mentioned feats through some class feature or something. Now I am not quite sure of how I want this to be put together other than the spine of the class. I want to find a way to incorporate the feats and in a way so the character has some playability to it. Any suggestions?

Seerow
2011-06-18, 07:19 PM
What does Overrun or Sunder have to do with being a blackbelt? Those are more about brute force than skill.

ExemplarofAvg
2011-06-18, 07:27 PM
What does Overrun or Sunder have to do with being a blackbelt? Those are more about brute force than skill.

Knocking down your opponent and breaking stuff. And Brute Force is still required, Black Belt was just picked to draw interest to the post.

NeoSeraphi
2011-06-18, 07:28 PM
If you want playability and Grapple/Trip to occupy the same sentence, you need to have a way to remove the Size restriction. You need a human to be able to grapple a Colossal dragon. (He might not WIN his Grapple checks, but he at least needs to not automatically fail them)

Light or no armor is obvious, but the sleeper-hold thing from Reaping Mauler was alright (The class was terrible, but the ability was decent)

You should make his unarmed strike be treated as a two-handed martial weapon for the purposes of Disarm and Sunder checks, and possibly give a shove maneuver that combines Bull Rushing with Trip to allow you to push someone 10 feet back and knock them prone at the same time.

You should give him the ability to Overrun as part of a charge, with a bonus for doing so. (I never got this about Overrun. It's a momentum-based ability that does not allow a running start. So strange)

For Sunder attempts, I suggest taking a look at the Deadly Concussion feat from DR 330. (Whenever you Sunder someone's armor with a bludgeoning weapon, you deal as much damage to them as you did to the weapon)

If you want Sunder to be playable you need to either give him Ki Strike (Adamantine) and change it to actually making his fists adamantine, or give some other way to ignore hardness for a quick and easy destruction.

This guy would obviously use his feet for low kicks and leg sweeps on Trip attempts, so maybe do some flavor or crunch around that, and give him the ability to throw someone he's grappled. (I think there was a Setting Sun counter that allowed that somewhere)

ExemplarofAvg
2011-06-18, 07:49 PM
If you want playability and Grapple/Trip to occupy the same sentence, you need to have a way to remove the Size restriction. You need a human to be able to grapple a Colossal dragon. (He might not WIN his Grapple checks, but he at least needs to not automatically fail them)

Light or no armor is obvious, but the sleeper-hold thing from Reaping Mauler was alright (The class was terrible, but the ability was decent)

You should make his unarmed strike be treated as a two-handed martial weapon for the purposes of Disarm and Sunder checks, and possibly give a shove maneuver that combines Bull Rushing with Trip to allow you to push someone 10 feet back and knock them prone at the same time.

You should give him the ability to Overrun as part of a charge, with a bonus for doing so. (I never got this about Overrun. It's a momentum-based ability that does not allow a running start. So strange)

For Sunder attempts, I suggest taking a look at the Deadly Concussion feat from DR 330. (Whenever you Sunder someone's armor with a bludgeoning weapon, you deal as much damage to them as you did to the weapon)

If you want Sunder to be playable you need to either give him Ki Strike (Adamantine) and change it to actually making his fists adamantine, or give some other way to ignore hardness for a quick and easy destruction.

This guy would obviously use his feet for low kicks and leg sweeps on Trip attempts, so maybe do some flavor or crunch around that, and give him the ability to throw someone he's grappled. (I think there was a Setting Sun counter that allowed that somewhere)

#1 I was already looking at something like that, some class feature of sorts that allows him to grapple creatures larger than them but with reasonable increments. So maybe so it scales along like the Druids wild shape, I wouldn't expect him to be able to grapple a dragon (But how cool that might be) But a Medium Character grappling something huge by level 8 seems plausible, right?

#2 Yeah, I don't imagine this being something that you'd see marching around in full plate, it should have good dexterity and a means to show it off. Hmm, the Int to Ac as well as Dex to AC, maybe ripping off the monks AC boost and making it Int, would that be too much to have while still lightly armored? And the sleeper hold thing, that's the hold for three rounds equals instant death right?

#3&4, Hmm, sounds like a neat idea, but a -4 isn't that much of a crippling thing, possibly a lowering of it overtime. And I had thought of something that combined Charge/Bull-Rush/Overrun Basically a tackling type move..

#5 I don't have DR's. could you possibly link to it, or give a better description (and honestly as far as I knew you couldn't sunder something a character was wearing, which always seemed stupid to me) but I do love the ability and the flavour that something like that would provide.

#6 I thought about some "Fists of X" ability where it improves along the way. Ending up as adamantine, but not magic and lawful the way a monks is.

#7, Possibly this would be where the Throw type move is, you can trip someone after you grapple them something very common in the only martial art I know well enough to compete in, Judo. Hmm, yes i do remember throws being a big part of the Setting Sun Maneuvers.

All in all thanks, anything you would add to this?

NeoSeraphi
2011-06-18, 07:54 PM
At least grant him the ability to grapple Gargantuan. Most Epic enemies will be larger than Huge and very powerful, and if one of the party can hold him down while the others punch, that will help greatly.

Int to AC, and the Monk's bonus to AC, but making it Int? You really shouldn't have Int to AC twice. I suggest Int to AC and Dex to AC and light armor, but without improvements along the 20 levels as the monk does. (The swordsage gets Wis to AC and light armor, but his doesn't improve over 20 levels)

Deadly Concussion: Prereqs: Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Str 15
Effect: Whenever you Sunder an object that a person is wearing with a Bludgeoning weapon, you automatically deal the same damage to that person that you did to the object.

ExemplarofAvg
2011-06-18, 08:00 PM
At least grant him the ability to grapple Gargantuan. Most Epic enemies will be larger than Huge and very powerful, and if one of the party can hold him down while the others punch, that will help greatly.

Int to AC, and the Monk's bonus to AC, but making it Int? You really shouldn't have Int to AC twice. I suggest Int to AC and Dex to AC and light armor, but without improvements along the 20 levels as the monk does. (The swordsage gets Wis to AC and light armor, but his doesn't improve over 20 levels)

Deadly Concussion: Prereqs: Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Str 15
Effect: Whenever you Sunder an object that a person is wearing with a Bludgeoning weapon, you automatically deal the same damage to that person that you did to the object.

#1 True and fair enough.
#2 Oh sorry, I wasn't sure the first thing about the monk type AC bonus ability was noticed so I thought I'd post it again just to clarify, sorry. And yes that sounds like a good idea, considering the Decent AC potential.
#3, Thank you.

DracoDei
2011-06-18, 08:33 PM
I think you can sunder shields, but not armor.

ForzaFiori
2011-06-18, 10:01 PM
For the grapple, why not just let the character treat his size as larger than it is, and scale it with level? If you wind up at Gargantuanish, that would let you hold your own against the gargantuan epic monsters, and still have a chance against colossal creatures, while still being difficult.

playswithfire
2011-06-19, 07:20 AM
If you'll forgive some self-promotion, a couple classes and disciplines from Tome of Tactics (see sig) might work. Specifically, a Soldier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183826#post10181086)/Swordage going into Hand-to-Hand Specialist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183826#post10181086) will have access to most of the combat options you're trying to use.

ExemplarofAvg
2011-06-19, 07:32 AM
If you'll forgive some self-promotion

I'm perfectly alright with self promotion. And if I don't use it directly I may borrow a mechanic that I feel would work well. Only if I have your permission of course.

ExemplarofAvg
2011-06-19, 08:34 AM
So far what I have is some combat maneuvers using the feats.


Throw: As a standard action you may attempt a melee touch attack, if you succeed resolve the throw as a trip attempt if you succeed on tripping your foe, you throw it up to 10ft away from you. The target falls prone in the designated space. Am enemy you throw does not provoke attacks of opportunity for passing through enemies threatened squares as part of the throw, and you can throw an enemy through unoccupied squares so long as there is an empty space, if there is insufficient space to throw your target into a clear space it falls prone in itís current space. You gain Improved Trip as a bonus feat even if you donít meet the prerequisites.

Fake: If you succeed on a Feint special attack you may make one extra attack at your highest base attack bonus against that foe. You gain Improved Feint as a bonus feat even if you do not meet the prerequisites.

(Name needed): If you successfully pin an opponent each round you may maintain the pin you deal them 1d6 points of damage for each round youíve maintain the pin.
You gain Improved Grapple as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites.

Smash: Whenever you sunder an object that a person is wearing with a Bludgeoning weapon, you automatically deal the same damage to that person that you did to the object. You gain Improved Sunder as a bonus feat even if you donít meet the prerequisites.

Toss: If you succeed on a Disarm attempt and beat it by five or more you may throw the Disarmed item away 5ft per five you beat their strength check. You gain Improved Disarm as a bonus feat even if you donít meet the prerequisites. (I really wish for a better use of the Disarm mechanic)

Crash: When you succeed on a Bull-Rush attempt and move your opponent back at the end of that movement you may slam them against an adjacent object dealing them 1d6 damage per 5ft of movement. You gain Improved Bull-Rush as a bonus feat even if you donít meet the prerequisites.

Trample: On a successful Overrun attempt so long as you still have movement for the round you may pass over your foe dealing your normal unarmed strike damage plus one half your strength modifier. You gain Improved Overrun as a bonus feat even if you donít meet the prerequisites.

And am working on some improvements for each if I can find a way for them to be relevant.

Fling: If you make a successful grapple check you may make a trip attempt as a free action, if you succeed on the trip attempt you may fling your foe up to 5ft per class level the target square must be empty. The foe takes damage from being thrown as normal, they land prone in the square. Prerequisites: Throw

Choke Out: If you pin an opponent while grappling and maintain the pin for 1 full round, the opponent must make a fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 Martial Artist class level + the Battles Int modifier) at the end of the round or fall unconscious for 1d6 rounds. A creature with no discernable anatomy has immunity to this effect.

Suggestions for more? and for fixes?

Pechvarry
2011-06-19, 05:59 PM
-Some basic level of +numbers to make them likely to succeed on all these assorted checks. Toss in some means of compensating size while you're at it. The obvious way is a scaling Powerful Build-esque class feature.

-Class features that allow you to combine multiple maneuvers, perhaps? I mean, I know I've seen some suggestions here, but I mean as the whole schtick of the class. Tripping bull rush, Disarming Trip, Feinting Grapple, etc.

-It occurs to me that such a class already has Str 13/Int 13. It makes any sort of dex focus seem odd. Keep that in mind.

Random class feature thoughts:

You have combat reflexes. Perhaps you gain your AC bonus from the feat on str checks for combat maneuvers as well. Note that combat expertise still negatively affects Disarming, Grappling, and probably Sundering, but this would make it help with tripping/bull rushing. This creates a funny scenario where your INT feat helps most of your STR abilities (those requiring Power Attack) only.

A huge problem with the PHB combat maneuvers is the cost of failure: a whole lost turn, often enough. Perhaps they need bonuses to checks whenever they fail, as they persist.

As a more interesting opposite to the above: failures of one maneuver type could give a nice bonus to all combat maneuvers except the one that just failed. So a failed Trip attempt could give you a nice bonus on a follow-up Grapple check.

Yitzi
2011-06-20, 02:33 AM
An idea for the capstone ability of whatever you do (the context in which I came up with it was for a grapple-oriented fighter variant): Whenever engaging in a combat maneuver, size and strength modifiers (but not modifiers from BAB, feats, or class features) are halved for both you and your opponent if such is beneficial to you.

It won't completely negate the size advantage, but in conjunction with stuff like an additional +4 to the checks (beyond that from the feats) and full BAB, it should allow for dragon wrestling.