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ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 12:09 PM
People keep trying to say that 'this class doesn't have the flavor that I am looking for', which I find to be patently... ridiculous.

So I will do this: Give me your character concept, and I will build that character so that, mechanically, it is a solid build. The more specific about how you want your character to go about doing this, the easier I can tailor the build to suit your needs.

Here's the rules:

1) No contradicting requirements (i.e. 'the world's best warrior who can best anything in physical combat... and absolutely refuses to use magic', when most things over CR 6 require magic of some form to kill)

2) Bonus abilities are optional. I don't want to hear: But I didn't want x, y, and z as well. Quite bluntly, if you don't want them, don't use them. Nothing says you have to use everything your mechanics says you can do. Pretend those parts of the character sheet just don't exist. However, I personally guarantee that it will do everything you want it to do.

3) I've got a life outside of gaming. Don't expect me to post results immediately. It may take me a bit to get back to my computer. Don't get upset if I don't respond to your post promptly. It may well take me over a week to get back to you.

4) If you don't get specific with your description, I can't get specific with my build. I don't want to hear 'I want x', then I give you a build that does x very well, only to have you say 'but I also wanted y and z, and I didn't want to do x like you just did'. Please state, explicitly, what it is you want your character to do.

5) No scarcastic build requests. I'm being serious and honest about wanting to prove my point. Please at least respect this by being serious with your requests.

6) Mechanics are just that... mechanics. They have no inherent flavor in and of themselves. Being able to break through a wall because you are doing OVER 9000 DAMAGE! with an Ubercharger is the same as being able to do it with Mountain Hammer Strike. You're hitting a wall, and it is falling over. Mechanics are merely a way to express how your character interacts with the game world. If you are not willing to be open-minded on this point, then there is no point in posting a build request. The point of this thread is to demonstrate my position to those who are willing to listen, not to get into ideological debates with individuals who refuse to budge from their position in the slightest.

7) This is not 'pimp my toon'. This is a proof-of-concept.
I do not use Dragon Mag content, nor do I use 3rd party content. I will use any other resource at my disposal. This is not supposed to be 'build me a character to play in my next game, and my GM says that nothing you suggest will be allowed'. This is an expression of how game mechanics can fill any niche.

8) NO ANIME OR POP CULTURE BUILD REQUESTS. No I will not build Ranma/Bleach/Ruruni/Vader/etc... this is to make actual characters, not to rip off other people's


So why am I doing this? I'm trying to prove my point. I'm wanting to prove to everyone that classes exist merely as a way to express a character concept, and that a class combination does not, in any way, impact your ability to RP your character however you'd like to.

I'm trying to prove here that any character concept CAN be appropriately represented by a mechanics build, AND be a viable and playable build who has something to contribute, although the mechanics necessary to do what you want to do may be a bit convoluted, depending on your request.

I suppose I'm trying to prove the Stormwind Fallacy is just that... false. That you CAN have BOTH RP *AND* Powergaming in one build. THEY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

Amphetryon
2011-06-20, 12:30 PM
I approve the concept you're trying to prove. :smallbiggrin:

I'll start off with a relatively easy one: I'd like to see a "swashbuckler" that works. By this I mean a charismatic, lightly armored, swordsman who fights primarily with a one-handed Slashing or Piercing weapon, without resorting to skulking in the shadows or attacking folks when they are caught unawares. That means that the primary source of damage should not be Sneak Attacking.

Please let me know if more specifics are needed, or if this request somehow violates your parameters.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 12:37 PM
I approve the concept you're trying to prove. :smallbiggrin:

I'll start off with a relatively easy one: I'd like to see a "swashbuckler" that works. By this I mean a charismatic, lightly armored, swordsman who fights primarily with a one-handed Slashing or Piercing weapon, without resorting to skulking in the shadows or attacking folks when they are caught unawares. That means that the primary source of damage should not be Sneak Attacking.

Please let me know if more specifics are needed, or if this request somehow violates your parameters.

All right, so you're wanting a charismatic guy who relies on his wits more than his brawn to live through the day. Single blade, no skulking or hiding in the shadows or attacking people caught unawares. That doesn't necessarily rule out sneak attack, though. You could use Feinting (a common swashbuckler tactic), or Flanking (another common tactic) to get yourself sneak attacking.

Is it the precision-based damage you have a problem with, or is it the dastardly and dishonorable shoot-them-in-the-back-while-they're-not-looking?

Amphetryon
2011-06-20, 12:52 PM
All right, so you're wanting a charismatic guy who relies on his wits more than his brawn to live through the day. Single blade, no skulking or hiding in the shadows or attacking people caught unawares. That doesn't necessarily rule out sneak attack, though. You could use Feinting (a common swashbuckler tactic), or Flanking (another common tactic) to get yourself sneak attacking.

Is it the precision-based damage you have a problem with, or is it the dastardly and dishonorable shoot-them-in-the-back-while-they're-not-looking?
The latter is what's to be avoided. To my mind, the "swashbuckler/duelist archetype" is antithetical to "shoot-them-in-the-back-while-they're-not-looking," as it's often fictionalized around one-on-one combat.

QuidEst
2011-06-20, 01:08 PM
I've got a duo that got their start as thugs in a superhero setting. It'd be pretty cool to give them D&D versions.

Twitchy: He's short and scrawny, and relies on his excellent knife-throwing abilities and his partner when it comes to combat. He moves and speaks very little, but comes up with elaborate plans and contingencies. No social skills to speak of, and relies on intimidation. I'm fine with him being a magic user in the D&D setting, aiming for vicious uses of spells like extracting the water from somebody or raising dead inside a carnivore. He has bat-like hearing.
(Specific summary: small size, bad hand-to-hand proficient with throwing knives, intelligence as main stat, low charisma, good intimidate, dirty spellcasting rather than direct damage- could be through wands, etc., sound-based blindsight if possible.)

Scralt: He's tall with lean muscle, good at brawling and tolerable with projectiles. His specialty, though, is explosives. (I've never quite figured out how to do that well in D&D.) He's not very bright and acts even dumber as a ruse, but possess good charisma and instincts regarding people.
(Specific summary: tall and wiry, unarmed melee, a ranged weapon, able to prepare explosives or something mechanically similar, low intelligence, high charisma/bluff/sense motive.)

I hope I provided enough information for you! Thanks- I'd love to see what you can do. I've tried working them out, but I don't really know enough options to fit them as well as I'd like.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 02:41 PM
The latter is what's to be avoided. To my mind, the "swashbuckler/duelist archetype" is antithetical to "shoot-them-in-the-back-while-they're-not-looking," as it's often fictionalized around one-on-one combat.

All right, works for me.

Here's what I came up with:

A duelist is a man who lives by his wit, his honor, and his reflexes. He does not need an overly large phallic symbol blade, as he has nothing to prove.

He is a master of precision, however. He can skewer a man with his Epee and plant his blade into his opponent's heart with a single thrust. Having said that, he is also a man of honor, and refuses to strike a dishonorable blow. Never shall he strike from behind, or while his opponent is unawares. Trickery, of course, is all part of The Great Game. If an opponent is tricked into lowering his guard, only a fool would hesitate to take advantage of that opening.

Yet there is more to this legend to be told. This is a man who can stand, unafraid, who can laugh at a dishonorable opponent who attempts to poison his blade, trusting in his on valor to protect him from those who would use such underhanded tricks.

In an honorable duel, he sits, motionless, waiting to make the first -and last- strike. On the field of combat, he is constantly in motion, flitting from duel to duel, dispatching opponents neatly and honorably. Standing between his foes and his comrades, with a comment as sharp as his blade.

Well, there's several ways to go about doing this, really. But here's a simple way to go about doing it.

The Build:

Paladin of Freedom 2/Warblade7/Factorum9/Witch Slayer2

The techniques:

Paladin of Freedom means Charisma to AC, with the Complete Champion variant, while still avoiding the stick-up-your-pigu that Badger paladins are so infamous for. We are going for AC rather than Saves, because of the Warblade maneuvers that will allow you to shrug off the worst of anything that anyone can offer. It also gives you a bit of emergency healing in case a friend drops.

Warblade, of course, will help you flesh out your ability to use your single one-handed blade to maximum effectiveness, and give you a lot of defensive ability as well. Uncanny Dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge, Int mod (and we are talking about a fairly intelligent guy here) to Reflex saves, confirming criticals, and Damage against flat-footed individuals.

Now let's talk Maneuvers.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade. Target is flat-footed for the attack. Combo this with Iajitsu Focus and Cunning Strike to dish out some rather impressive single-target damage numbers.

Sudden Leap is also a good one for maneuverability. You're bouncing around the arena, encouraging the onlookers to cheer

Wall of Blades is a good counter to an attack. It pits your skill with a blade against theirs, may the best swordsman win.

Mountain Hammer can very easily be reflavored as "Finding the chink in the armor to bypass the damage reduction". After all, even Smaug had that one little scale that was a bit off.

Any of the 'concentration check to replace saving throw' abilities work well to cover your weak saves, particularly if you know you are going to need that. With Mettle + Evasion, you can pretty much say 'no' to anything.

Pouncing Charge. You close in with a rapid-fire series of blows, striking your opponent several times as you close.

White Raven Strike. Also called the 'Fool's Gambit', does okay damage, but more importantly, declares opponent flat-footed until the start of his next turn.

Now we turn to Factorum, which is pretty much the iconic class for any build which relies on wits.

Most of your feats should be Font of Inspiration, so you can take full advantage of these abilities every round without running out.

Cunning Insight... never say 'you can't hit MY AC'

Cunning Knowledge... very powerful to combo with several maneuvers you know, and for Iaijutsu Focus

Arcane Dilettante. I know, you don't want magic. Fine. Would you like Plot Armor instead? Well, it's *called* Mage Armor, but we can call it Plot Armor if you like, since it works the same... not wearing any armor, but still can't be hit. What's that, you want to wear a Chain Shirt? Fine, so go with Shield instead. Same concept, it's Plot Armor. Grease would be very powerful, but I could understand not wanting to use such a dirty trick. True Strike is also very thematic for being able to basically call out a Nat-20 when you absolutely need it. Jump spell is good to combo with pouncing strike. Magic Weapon means that ANY blade in your hand can be deadly. Those are just 1st level spells.

Brains over Brawn makes your Strength practically a dump-stat. Literally one if you get the feats Martial Study (Shadow Hand), Martial Stance (Island of Blades), and Shadow Blade (to use with the Short Sword, of course). But that is feat intensive.

Cunning Defense is always a good way to further improve your Plot Armor

Cunning Strike is a way to significantly boost damage output.

Opportunistic Piety is a good way to augment your very limited Lay On Hands, and can be used to fuel Caedeuceus Bracers.

And, of course, Cunning Surge... because what Factorum build would be complete without it?

Witch Slayer seems a bit odd here, but allow me to explain. Mettle is exceedingly valuable for you. Sure, you can pretty much make Will or Fort saves, but a lot of those 'Fort save or BAD' spells usually have a secondary 'kicker' effect. Slay Living, for example, still deals 1d6/level. Cloudkill still does Con Damage on a successful save. However, with this feat, you ignore any such 'kickers'. This will keep you alive.

Other feat ideas includes:

Elusive Target. This completely negates Ubercharger builds, although you need worthless feats to qualify. IIRC, there's a way to get them cheaply, but I can't remember off the top of my head.

Improved Feint. Sure, why not? Either use this or use Sapphire Nightmare Blade, whichever is handy at the moment. Either way works for you, still gets you bunches of bonus damage on your attack.

So, here you have him. He's hard to take down, and can dish out the pain against an opponent without needing to ambush. His epee is an extension of his arm, and if you challenge him, it shall extend to pierce your heart.

Essence_of_War
2011-06-20, 02:51 PM
That's pretty bawler Shneekey.

Do you mind if other people piggyback/offer additional suggestions also?

Shadowknight12
2011-06-20, 03:00 PM
This is an excellent idea. Perhaps you can help me realise a concept that's been plaguing me for a while.

Dual wielder of daggers or kukris (or some other bladed light weapon... except punching daggers and claws. More like a knife.). Some form of connection to ice (ice, snow or cold effects). Simply "it's from Frostburn" won't really do for me, since the point is that he can create ice somehow. Melee combatant, more of a mighty glacier (slow and powerful) than a fragile speedster. More defensive than offensive. High amount of resistances and immunities (undeath is a strong plus, but not required). Magic is encouraged, but if it interferes with the build (since keeping up those spellcasting levels can be a chore), it can be replaced. Some ability to ward/protect/deflect/abjure would be extremely nice as well.

Thanks in advance.

hivedragon
2011-06-20, 03:02 PM
Okay I would like a mage slayer. Spell resistance or spell immunity would be nice. High saves mixed with evasion and mettle would be cool. Should be able to deal with flying and/or invisible opponents.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 03:11 PM
That's pretty bawler Shneekey.

Do you mind if other people piggyback/offer additional suggestions also?

By all means. I am not an exhaustive source. if anyone has suggestions to further improve my builds, by all means, pipe up and suggest.

For the next build in the thread:


I've got a duo that got their start as thugs in a superhero setting. It'd be pretty cool to give them D&D versions.

Twitchy: He's short and scrawny, and relies on his excellent knife-throwing abilities and his partner when it comes to combat. He moves and speaks very little, but comes up with elaborate plans and contingencies. No social skills to speak of, and relies on intimidation. I'm fine with him being a magic user in the D&D setting, aiming for vicious uses of spells like extracting the water from somebody or raising dead inside a carnivore. He has bat-like hearing.
(Specific summary: small size, bad hand-to-hand proficient with throwing knives, intelligence as main stat, low charisma, good intimidate, dirty spellcasting rather than direct damage- could be through wands, etc., sound-based blindsight if possible.) Sounds like a really fun guy!

Well now, here's a few ideas.

Factorum, from Dungeonscape, really helps you with this. He gets a couple of spells he can use, but he's not really a spellcaster. But he can choose from pretty much the entire list, so you can get as nasty as you like with the few spell-like abilities he gets. This also enormously leverages his Intelligence, because he can pretty much apply it to everything.

For his throwing, you need to look no further than the Prestige Class Master Thrower from Complete Warrior. Sneaky Shot + Weak Spot = guaranteed flat-footed touch attacks.

For the blindsight, the best bet I can think of is the Stance 'Hearing the Air' from Tome of Battle. Some of the Shadow Hand maneuvers also mimic the 'dirty magic use', like being able to garrotte someone from at range.

Hearing the Air is a 5th level stance, meaning you need an initiator level of 10 to get it. So Factorum11/Master Thrower 5/Swordsage4 gets this nicely.

Here's how it works:

Factorum is all about using your intelligence. They spend Inspiration Points (which are refreshed every encounter) to do a bunch of different things. They can increase sneak attack damage, they can get extra attacks, they can boost skill checks, boost attack rolls... lots of stuff. One of my favorite things they get is Cunning Breach at 11, which lets them ignore DR.

Now, let's pair that with Master Thrower's ability to use a Slight of Hand check to negate opponent's dex bonus, and Chink in the Armor which makes it a touch attack.

So, when he throws his daggers, he ignores Dex, Armor, and Natural Armor bonuses to AC, gets sneak attack dice applied to the roll, and ignores DR. If that ain't fun, I don't know what is!

But wait! There's MORE!

The stance Hearing the Air does what you want to do with his Blindsight. You also can pick up Shadow Garrotte, which does 5d6 damage as a ranged touch attack. Best of all, no one knows where it is coming from, and he has to make a Fort save or be flat-footed for the next round.


Scralt: He's tall with lean muscle, good at brawling and tolerable with projectiles. His specialty, though, is explosives. (I've never quite figured out how to do that well in D&D.) He's not very bright and acts even dumber as a ruse, but possess good charisma and instincts regarding people.
(Specific summary: tall and wiry, unarmed melee, a ranged weapon, able to prepare explosives or something mechanically similar, low intelligence, high charisma/bluff/sense motive.)

I hope I provided enough information for you! Thanks- I'd love to see what you can do. I've tried working them out, but I don't really know enough options to fit them as well as I'd like.

Hmmm... explosives. Low intelligence, high charisma/bluff/sense motive.

Well, there's not many ways of representing actual explosives in combat. But let me ask you, good sir, what did he use explosives to achieve? Was it an emergency 'blow lots of people up' thing? Did he throw them? Did he set them as traps? I have a couple of ideas, depending on how he uses his explosives.

Z3ro
2011-06-20, 03:20 PM
Alright, here's one for you I've been wondering about for a while:

I'm looking for something of a weapon master build. Someone who carries and can use effectively half a dozen different weapons for whatever situation arises, as well as fight unarmed if needed. He should be unarmored or use only light armor, be mobile and able to take advantage of it. The build should have plenty of weapon "tricks", but can still kick out lots of damage.

Couple of stipulations: No swordsage; I don't mind ToB, but I do not like swordsage for some reasons, so leave that out.

If possible: Include incarnum. Not necassarily the whole build, but I love what incarnum bring to the table and if you could throw a couple weapons or feats in, so much the better.

Build away!

huttj509
2011-06-20, 03:24 PM
This is an excellent idea. Perhaps you can help me realise a concept that's been plaguing me for a while.

Dual wielder of daggers or kukris (or some other bladed light weapon... except punching daggers and claws. More like a knife.). Some form of connection to ice (ice, snow or cold effects). Simply "it's from Frostburn" won't really do for me, since the point is that he can create ice somehow. Melee combatant, more of a mighty glacier (slow and powerful) than a fragile speedster. More defensive than offensive. High amount of resistances and immunities (undeath is a strong plus, but not required). Magic is encouraged, but if it interferes with the build (since keeping up those spellcasting levels can be a chore), it can be replaced. Some ability to ward/protect/deflect/abjure would be extremely nice as well.

Thanks in advance.


Hmmm, something jumps out at me that raises a question on criteria.

Seems like the ToB desert wind school, with fire replaced by ice damage would go a long way.

Is this considered out of line, or not in the spirit of things?

Essence_of_War
2011-06-20, 03:24 PM
Okay I would like a mage slayer. Spell resistance or spell immunity would be nice. High saves mixed with evasion and mettle would be cool. Should be able to deal with flying and/or invisible opponents.

Do you mind if it is a spellcaster or psionic user also?

Shadowknight12
2011-06-20, 03:27 PM
Hmmm, something jumps out at me that raises a question on criteria.

Seems like the ToB desert wind school, with fire replaced by ice damage would go a long way.

Is this considered out of line, or not in the spirit of things?

I have honestly very, very little experience with ToB (so it's not out of the question), but I was under the impression that the point of Desert Wind (even if one replaced fire with cold) was that it focused on speed, mobility, agility and dexterity. Or am I mistaken? Because if I am, that's actually a very good idea.

hivedragon
2011-06-20, 03:28 PM
Do you mind if it is a spellcaster or psionic user also?

I'm realistic, while it would be cool to have it be a non-caster I don't think that that would be possible without massive home brewing.

Essence_of_War
2011-06-20, 03:40 PM
I'm realistic, while it would be cool to have it be a non-caster I don't think that that would be possible without massive home brewing.

That's quite fair. I'll try to do some brainstorming for you also.

QuidEst
2011-06-20, 03:41 PM
So, when he throws his daggers, he ignores Dex, Armor, and Natural Armor bonuses to AC, gets sneak attack dice applied to the roll, and ignores DR. If that ain't fun, I don't know what is!

That sounds like Twitchy all over! XD Awesome. Choices from the full range of spells is also great- I'm sure he'd find some decidedly unpleasant things to do. I'm impressed that you got all the aspects so well. He and Scralt may have to be suggested as some high-level opponents if we ever get up to that point.


Well, there's not many ways of representing actual explosives in combat. But let me ask you, good sir, what did he use explosives to achieve? Was it an emergency 'blow lots of people up' thing? Did he throw them? Did he set them as traps? I have a couple of ideas, depending on how he uses his explosives.
He uses them for a few things. The only times he pulls them out for actual combat are when things go very wrong, and their combined skills to do a bluff/intimidate combo didn't work out. They're more likely to set as traps, and still more likely to be used for tactical demolitions- knocking out parts of buildings, making a collapse look accidental, and so on. He is also fond of magnesium flares- he's got a thermos rigged to set off a blinding flare, and a special cigar for a "last request" that is blinding when lit. There seem to be a number of similar effects available for that.

One specific example: part of Twitchy's plan to carry out a dramatic hit on somebody involved a hydrogen/oxygen mixture put into a helium tank. Scralt was able to prepare that, pass bluff to deliver it to a mob boss's birthday party, and include a tip about blowing the candles out after inhaling helium, which is inert. Chemistry ensued and the pair got a reputation.

For regular jobs, though, he's relying more on ranged weapons or brawling. I'm not concerned whether he rolls, tosses, or hides the explosives in combat, but something a little classier than just buying lots of Alchemist's Fires would be nice. XP

NineThePuma
2011-06-20, 03:43 PM
I want an Assassin's creed style parkour using assassin type. Emphasis on his mobility and such. In terms of combat, however, I'd like a mix of close range unarmed strikes and throwing weapons, favoring the former.

I can think of a couple ways to do it, but second opinions are wonderful things.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 03:52 PM
This is an excellent idea. Perhaps you can help me realise a concept that's been plaguing me for a while.

Dual wielder of daggers or kukris (or some other bladed light weapon... except punching daggers and claws. More like a knife.). Some form of connection to ice (ice, snow or cold effects). Simply "it's from Frostburn" won't really do for me, since the point is that he can create ice somehow. Melee combatant, more of a mighty glacier (slow and powerful) than a fragile speedster. More defensive than offensive. High amount of resistances and immunities (undeath is a strong plus, but not required). Magic is encouraged, but if it interferes with the build (since keeping up those spellcasting levels can be a chore), it can be replaced. Some ability to ward/protect/deflect/abjure would be extremely nice as well.

Thanks in advance.

This is a really awesome concept!

When I saw 'dual Kukri', I immediately thought "Invisible Blade, or maybe Crit Fisher". Then I saw you wanted more of a 'tank' build, who can 'just say NO... to YES', with an ice-theme to it, and magic as a bonus.

Some people like to play a bastard of a guy who dual-wields daggers, and loves to shiv people with them. Some people like to play a 'Mr. NO'. I ask you, is it too much to ask for both? I say to that... NO.

My friend, this is not a problem. Allow me to introduce you to the wonderful world of Dragonfire Inspiration.

Have you ever heard of the Haka Ka Mate? Sounds like it would be just up this guy's alley.

So you've got Perform (Dance), dual-wielding kukri, and using Silverbrow Human (free Draconic Heritage: Silver) to get bonus ice damage on every attack. And by bonus damage, we're talking several handfuls of d6's.

You're wanting a bunch of 'Just say NO to YES', and we can accommodate that request as well. It's called Warblade, and White Raven Song. There's a trio of maneuvers that let you replace a Concentration check for your Saving Throw of choice. Considering how pathetically easy it is to boost Concentration checks, you can pretty much bet the farm that you can make any saving throw that they throw at you.

You see, with the feat White Raven Song, you get to add your Bard and your Warblade levels together for purposes of Inspire Courage, which is adding more d6's with Dragonfire Inspiration.

But you want more damage too? Fine. It's called Tiger Claw. Specifically, x-ing Mongoose boosts for more attacks, and and Pouncing Strike to let you make a full attack on a charge.

Oh, and don't forget, Warblade is a d12 HD, just like Barbarian. So you'll have tons of hit points.

Nut that's not enough, is it? Even if you make saves, you've still got problems with some spells still having some effects, right? So a two-level dip in Witch Hunter nets you Mettle. I'd have been tempted to go Crusader to pick it up as we go along, but it doesn't give you the 'NO' ability that the diamond mind maneuvers grant you, nor does it give you the extra damage output.

For Evasion... well, much as I hate to suggest it, there's always Monk. So if we're going to take a two-level dip in Monk, let us realize what we are really talking about here.

First off, the AC bonus. Well, there's a way around that. Since we're going Bard anyways, might as well pick up Ascetic Mage (since Bard *IS* a spontaneous arcane caster), so now you've got your CHA bonus to AC as well as your casting stat! Evasion, of course.

Now then, let's use a variant of Monk called the Cobra Strike Discipline. It's the very first one found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les). It nets you free Dodge and Mobility. That means you can pick up Elusive Target, and completely negate an opponent's power attack. You're now completely ignoring all Shock Trooper builds.

Now then, to continue with the ice-based theme, using your Charisma is always fun, so there's Snowflake Wardance, both thematic and appropriate for the situation. Battledancing Slippers also adds to the fun.

So, to recap:

Monk2/Bard4/Warblade 9/Witch Hunter 2/Abjurant Champion3

Feats: Song of the Heart (increase IC), two-weapon fighting, White Raven Song (stacks Bard with Warblade for IC), Dragonfire Inspiration (so IC does xd6 Cold damage), Elusive Target, Snowflake Wardance, improved TWF, Greater TWF.

Gear: Vest of Legends (more Inspire Courage), Harmonizing kukri (lets your IC go on longer), Slippers of Battledancing (CHA to damage)

So, with only a modest use of IC, we've got like 7d6 cold damage on every attack, using Inspirational Boost, Vest of Legends, and Song of the Heart. Some would suggest doubling your IC with an Exalted feat, but I don't much like BoED.

You've got both Mettle and Evasion. You're NOT going to fail a saving throw. So basically, the only thing you have to worry about is no-save effects. For that, you've got your Charisma bonus to AC, plus Mage Armor plus Shield.

Oh yea, Abjurant Champion means you also net yourself bonus on both Mage Armor and Shield spells, AND you can toss them up as a swift action. Make sure to get yourself a Ring of Wizardry I to double your 1st level spells, you'll be using a LOT of them. Maybe some Pearls of Power as well, since you'll be reusing the same spells over and over.

Does this build work for you?

Quirp
2011-06-20, 03:57 PM
I'm looking for something of a weapon master build. Someone who carries and can use effectively half a dozen different weapons for whatever situation arises, as well as fight unarmed if needed. He should be unarmored or use only light armor, be mobile and able to take advantage of it. The build should have plenty of weapon "tricks", but can still kick out lots of damage.

Couple of stipulations: No swordsage; I don't mind ToB, but I do not like swordsage for some reasons, so leave that out.

If possible: Include incarnum. Not necassarily the whole build, but I love what incarnum bring to the table and if you could throw a couple weapons or feats in, so much the better.


I think I can give you some ideas for this one. This is not a full build, but I think one could make a solid build, when working on it longer.
Barbarian 1/Binder 9/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5/Fist of the Forest 3/IncarnumXXX 2

You get Pounce from barbarian. When you bind the Triad, Paimon and Andras, you get proficiency with all weapons (Triad), whirlwind attack (Paimon), dance of death (Paimon) and imroved critical with all weapons (Andras). Additionally you can smite and make opponents attack each other. Fist of the Forest gives you the ability to fight unarmed, when needed.

Telonius
2011-06-20, 03:57 PM
Here's a concept for an Eberron campaign that I never did quite get right.

Wildhunt Shifter, lives in Sharn, and works as a private eye (typical Sam Spade/film noir-ish guy). He's trying to adapt his Wildhunt heritage and personality to an urban environment. He's not a magic user himself, but certainly doesn't hesitate to use magic items to help in his investigations. Somewhat gruff personality (per film noir), but lots of contacts in the city. He's not psionic, and is a bit distrustful about people "messing with his brain." He's fairly lawful; always looks for evidence and turns over criminals to the legal authority. He's not above bluffing to get his way into a protected area. He knows how to spot a bluff, a forgery, and a troublemaker.

(My original build was Urban Ranger, but this degenerated pretty quickly into a mishmash of contradicting skills and feats coupled with fairly non-spectacular racial abilities...)

Dralnu
2011-06-20, 04:02 PM
Okay, I got a hard one for you:
A gnome tinkerer/alchemist. "Eccentric" is an understatement. Enjoys crafting constructs one minute and lobbing alchemist's fire the next. The earlier he can do this, the better (aka nobody plays at level 20 anyway). Bonus points if you can mix those two aspects together. "Win the Internet" award if you can give him a way of crafting sheep constructs that fly (or are thrown) at PCs and explode.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 04:10 PM
Okay, I got a hard one for you:
A gnome tinkerer/alchemist. "Eccentric" is an understatement. Enjoys crafting constructs one minute and lobbing alchemist's fire the next. The earlier he can do this, the better (aka nobody plays at level 20 anyway). Bonus points if you can mix those two aspects together. "Win the Internet" award if you can give him a way of crafting sheep constructs that fly (or are thrown) at PCs and explode.

Well, crafting sheep constructs can be done with Effigy Master. But if you want them to explode... do you care if they happen to be necromantically constructed? Corpsecrafter + Destructive Retribution + Really Throw Anything could be in for a LOT of fun.

Technically, you can make dead sheep with Creation spell line, since they are non-living. Then raise them (The Dead Walk is a good vehicle, since they won't be lasting long, and it doesn't have material components), then toss them and watch them blow up upon impact, since they take the same damage the targets have.

Doktor Per
2011-06-20, 04:19 PM
I would like the Detective/Alchemist combination. Someone who's capable of all things needed for a detective in a fantasy setting. Being able to track down people, and be at least competent socially and academically. Alchemy is obvious. And would very much be a preferred method of combat. Unarmed strike is desire-able, as any detective worth his salt, is versed in the art of pugilism.

He would wish to avoid direct confrontation at all costs, of course.

Dralnu
2011-06-20, 04:20 PM
Well, crafting sheep constructs can be done with Effigy Master. But if you want them to explode... do you care if they happen to be necromantically constructed? Corpsecrafter + Destructive Retribution + Really Throw Anything could be in for a LOT of fun.

Technically, you can make dead sheep with Creation spell line, since they are non-living. Then raise them (The Dead Walk is a good vehicle, since they won't be lasting long, and it doesn't have material components), then toss them and watch them blow up upon impact, since they take the same damage the targets have.

I tried doing the concept as an artificer but I could never get the darned things to EXPLODE!

So, necromancy can do it huh? Yeah, that's fine. Eccentric/crazy gnome "necromancer" who focuses on the most absurd (but effective) uses for his undead minions. I'll use him as a BBEG.

potatocubed
2011-06-20, 04:22 PM
Alright, here's a character (a villain) from a different system; I'm curious if and how he would translate to 3.5:

A necromancer who raises an army of the undead... with the awesome power of his rock music. I'm thinking no armour, sonic-based attacks as his bread and butter in combat but necromantic power for buffs, debuffs and undead-raising. Human for preference.

The original Boris played an electric guitar made of someone's spine, so bonus points if you can get that in as well.

More bonus points if he can get some sort of synergy from a chorus of spectral backing vocalists.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 04:25 PM
I would like the Detective/Alchemist combination. Someone who's capable of all things needed for a detective in a fantasy setting. Being able to track down people, and be at least competent socially and academically. Alchemy is obvious. And would very much be a preferred method of combat. Unarmed strike is desire-able, as any detective worth his salt, is versed in the art of pugilism.

He would wish to avoid direct confrontation at all costs, of course.

Not enough information. What do you mean by 'alchemist'? Everything you've said so far screams 'Urban Ranger'.

QuidEst
2011-06-20, 04:26 PM
Technically, you can make dead sheep with Creation spell line.
Theoretically… could this be worked to make dead warforged sheep? I don't know if the templates are compatible or not, but that would get you mechanical sheep.

OverdrivePrime
2011-06-20, 04:26 PM
Alright this seems pretty fun.
I'm looking for a formidable boss villain here. Sort of a hobgoblin version of Nightmare from the Soul Edge / Soul Calibur series, if you're familiar. Full plate & packing steel. Sword the size of a Volkswagen, can't understand the purpose of ranged combat, all that good stuff. Yeah, so far screams warblade.
Made his name and rose to power as a dragon slayer - has the heads of bronze dragons as pauldrons, still goes out on quests to kill goodly dragons and take their stuff. Normally does so solo.
Magic is just fine and encouraged, but this character revels in spilling blood and would much rather deliver a killing blow with a combo or overpowering strike from his ridiculous sword than with a nasty spell.
This guy values power. Sheer physical power more than other power, but he's smart enough to value flexibility and cunning. Often relies on intimidation to get an edge up on battles for him, or force people into submission right away (and kill them later).

Like I said, Warblade 20 seems tempting, but I don't know that a Warblade 20 could confidently solo ancient metallic dragons.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 04:37 PM
Alright, here's a character (a villain) from a different system; I'm curious if and how he would translate to 3.5:

A necromancer who raises an army of the undead... with the awesome power of his rock music. I'm thinking no armour, sonic-based attacks as his bread and butter in combat but necromantic power for buffs, debuffs and undead-raising. Human for preference.

The original Boris played an electric guitar made of someone's spine, so bonus points if you can get that in as well.

More bonus points if he can get some sort of synergy from a chorus of spectral backing vocalists.

Rawk ON, man!

Okay, sounds like what we've got here is a real drivin' need for, like, some rock 'n roll with your necromancy.

But, like, there's one really bogus thing here, man. Like, the more you do music, like the less you can do undead stuff.

Now there's this guy named Bill, called a Bardblade/War Chanter... rockin' on with the music, man. With Requieum feat, he's even getting the undead horde in on the Zombie Jamboree, and headbangin' like nothin' else. Even gives all the undead, like, the same BAB that he does... +19. Including iterative attacks. Which is totally gnarley, man. AND does the whole drgonfire Inspiration and Inspire Courage thing so that they're really bringin' the PAIN, man.

And there's this other guy named Ted, he's called a Dread Necro. He's a really creepy dude, dude. But duuuude, he's got like TONS of minions. An' he can make 'em explode when they die. And make more of 'em as he goes along. And, like, you'd better not BE undead frontin', or he's just gonna make you his newest b***h.

To combine those two righteous dude would be... most excellent.

But that's, like, harder to do than you'd think. I mean, even Prestige Bard, which could make you one gnarly dude, gives you a -2 CL on Necromancy spells. Most heinous.

But then I found this really creepy book, had some really bad latin on the cover, you know the kind. Had some PrC called Dirgesinger. Does what you want it to do, man. Maybe not perfect, but not bad. And can always get Undead Leadership for your old army of darkness routine. And it's only a five level PrC to boot, man. Check it out, duuuude. Check it ouuuuut.


Okay I would like a mage slayer. Spell resistance or spell immunity would be nice. High saves mixed with evasion and mettle would be cool. Should be able to deal with flying and/or invisible opponents.

That would depend on the context. You see, the problem with this archetype is that, in D&D, it's pretty much impossible to kill a wizard who doesn't want you to do it. Even another wizard of the same level has trouble killing a wizard.

There is a reason why The Tier 1 classes are referred to as 'game-breaking'. It's quite simple: Wizards have more 'no' and more 'yes' buttons than any other class in the game. When you get into Craft Contingency, it has every 'no' button in the entire game at the same time. There really IS no way to do this effectively.

Unless you are willing to set arbitrary limits on what the Wizard is allowed to have, such a build does not exist.

The Rabbler
2011-06-20, 05:11 PM
Alright, here's one for you I've been wondering about for a while:

I'm looking for something of a weapon master build. Someone who carries and can use effectively half a dozen different weapons for whatever situation arises, as well as fight unarmed if needed. He should be unarmored or use only light armor, be mobile and able to take advantage of it. The build should have plenty of weapon "tricks", but can still kick out lots of damage.

Couple of stipulations: No swordsage; I don't mind ToB, but I do not like swordsage for some reasons, so leave that out.

If possible: Include incarnum. Not necassarily the whole build, but I love what incarnum bring to the table and if you could throw a couple weapons or feats in, so much the better.

Build away!

this looks like a job for Haberdash, the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633). Haberdash fights with a slew of exotic weapons used in combination with each other to do whatever he needs to in combat. The base of the build is only 9 levels long, so there's plenty of room to build off of.

As mentioned in the thread, with a 2 level dip into chameleon for the floating feat, you could get a shaped soulmeld (note: shaped not bound) in every one of your chakra slots, as shaping a soulmeld is permanent and losing access to the feat doesn't un-shape a soulmeld.

Similarly, the build synergizes nicely with some warblade levels for both offensive and defensive maneuvers. That thread is all-around a good read.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 05:17 PM
Alright, here's one for you I've been wondering about for a while:

I'm looking for something of a weapon master build. Someone who carries and can use effectively half a dozen different weapons for whatever situation arises, as well as fight unarmed if needed. He should be unarmored or use only light armor, be mobile and able to take advantage of it. The build should have plenty of weapon "tricks", but can still kick out lots of damage.

Couple of stipulations: No swordsage; I don't mind ToB, but I do not like swordsage for some reasons, so leave that out.

If possible: Include incarnum. Not necassarily the whole build, but I love what incarnum bring to the table and if you could throw a couple weapons or feats in, so much the better.

Build away!Sounds like a job for Totemist to me. Take a one-level dip in Master of Masks for the Gladiator Mask. Gives you a bonus on attack and damage rolls, and Proficiency in every weapon in existence. Yes, even those.

Heck, bind Gorrilon Arms to Totem chakra. There's your natural attacks. Sphinx Claws for Pounce (and that'll help regardless of if you want to use natural or manufactured). Lucky Dice will give you bonuses on attack and damage rolls as well (although you'll have to blow a feat on them).

Zonugal
2011-06-20, 05:23 PM
I would like the Detective/Alchemist combination. Someone who's capable of all things needed for a detective in a fantasy setting. Being able to track down people, and be at least competent socially and academically. Alchemy is obvious. And would very much be a preferred method of combat. Unarmed strike is desire-able, as any detective worth his salt, is versed in the art of pugilism.

He would wish to avoid direct confrontation at all costs, of course.

Seer 2/Monk 1/Seer X with Tashalatora should cover any supernatural mysteries.

But if you favor a less magical approach than Urban Ranger is the next suggestion.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 05:32 PM
I tried doing the concept as an artificer but I could never get the darned things to EXPLODE!

So, necromancy can do it huh? Yeah, that's fine. Eccentric/crazy gnome "necromancer" who focuses on the most absurd (but effective) uses for his undead minions. I'll use him as a BBEG.

Yea. Best way to make disposable minions like that is Warlock6 and taking The Dead Walk. Since that also nets you the ability to Take 10 on UMD, you can use a Wand of Lesser Creation. So you can start making explosive sheep around that level.

To throw them at opponents gets a little trickier, but fortunately there is a solution for that as well. The feat is called Fling Ally, and it's in Races of Stone. That should get you the rest of the way to flinging your explosive sheep around.

Remember, friends, while conducting our zany alchemical experiments, we must also strive to be more Green! Reduce! Reuse! Reanimate!

Tael
2011-06-20, 05:46 PM
I would like a build that is based around teleporting/crazy fast pouncing (and when I say fast, I don't mean just +10 foot move speed. I want "if you can see him, he can jump you" fast) and uses either dagger type weapons, natural attacks, or unarmed. I'd like him to have some kind of lightning or shadow association, and he should be a good infiltrator even when he isn't killing people.

And here's the big restriction: Must be Level 10 or Lower. All the decent methods of Shadowpouncing I know of come in after 10, and I want this to be ganking people before then.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 05:54 PM
I would like a build that is based around teleporting/crazy fast pouncing (and when I say fast, I don't mean just +10 foot move speed. I want "if you can see him, he can jump you" fast) and uses either dagger type weapons, natural attacks, or unarmed. I'd like him to have some kind of lightning or shadow association, and he should be a good infiltrator even when he isn't killing people.

And here's the big restriction: Must be Level 10 or Lower. All the decent methods of Shadowpouncing I know of come in after 10, and I want this to be ganking people before then.

Ahh, my friend, welcome to the wonderful world of Totemist.

Blink Shirt is bound to Totem chakra by level 2. DimDoor as a *move action*. Combo with WRT and you have, effectively, infinite shadowpouncing.

However, the PrC Shadowlord requires 10 ranks in skills. That's level 7, minimum, and the ability Shadow Pounce is at level 4, which means 11th level.

Crinti Shadow Marauder might get you in under 10. It only requires 8 ranks, so that might do the job

dextercorvia
2011-06-20, 06:22 PM
This is a really awesome concept!

When I saw 'dual Kukri', I immediately thought "Invisible Blade, or maybe Crit Fisher". Then I saw you wanted more of a 'tank' build, who can 'just say NO... to YES', with an ice-theme to it, and magic as a bonus.

Some people like to play a bastard of a guy who dual-wields daggers, and loves to shiv people with them. Some people like to play a 'Mr. NO'. I ask you, is it too much to ask for both? I say to that... NO.

My friend, this is not a problem. Allow me to introduce you to the wonderful world of Dragonfire Inspiration.

Have you ever heard of the Haka Ka Mate? Sounds like it would be just up this guy's alley.

So you've got Perform (Dance), dual-wielding kukri, and using Silverbrow Human (free Draconic Heritage: Silver) to get bonus ice damage on every attack. And by bonus damage, we're talking several handfuls of d6's.

You're wanting a bunch of 'Just say NO to YES', and we can accommodate that request as well. It's called Warblade, and White Raven Song. There's a trio of maneuvers that let you replace a Concentration check for your Saving Throw of choice. Considering how pathetically easy it is to boost Concentration checks, you can pretty much bet the farm that you can make any saving throw that they throw at you.

You see, with the feat White Raven Song, you get to add your Bard and your Warblade levels together for purposes of Inspire Courage, which is adding more d6's with Dragonfire Inspiration.

But you want more damage too? Fine. It's called Tiger Claw. Specifically, x-ing Mongoose boosts for more attacks, and and Pouncing Strike to let you make a full attack on a charge.

Oh, and don't forget, Warblade is a d12 HD, just like Barbarian. So you'll have tons of hit points.

Nut that's not enough, is it? Even if you make saves, you've still got problems with some spells still having some effects, right? So a two-level dip in Witch Hunter nets you Mettle. I'd have been tempted to go Crusader to pick it up as we go along, but it doesn't give you the 'NO' ability that the diamond mind maneuvers grant you, nor does it give you the extra damage output.

For Evasion... well, much as I hate to suggest it, there's always Monk. So if we're going to take a two-level dip in Monk, let us realize what we are really talking about here.

First off, the AC bonus. Well, there's a way around that. Since we're going Bard anyways, might as well pick up Ascetic Mage (since Bard *IS* a spontaneous arcane caster), so now you've got your CHA bonus to AC as well as your casting stat! Evasion, of course.

Now then, let's use a variant of Monk called the Cobra Strike Discipline. It's the very first one found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les). It nets you free Dodge and Mobility. That means you can pick up Elusive Target, and completely negate an opponent's power attack. You're now completely ignoring all Shock Trooper builds.

Now then, to continue with the ice-based theme, using your Charisma is always fun, so there's Snowflake Wardance, both thematic and appropriate for the situation. Battledancing Slippers also adds to the fun.

So, to recap:

Monk2/Bard4/Warblade 9/Witch Hunter 2/Abjurant Champion3

Feats: Song of the Heart (increase IC), two-weapon fighting, White Raven Song (stacks Bard with Warblade for IC), Dragonfire Inspiration (so IC does xd6 Cold damage), Elusive Target, Snowflake Wardance, improved TWF, Greater TWF.

Gear: Vest of Legends (more Inspire Courage), Harmonizing kukri (lets your IC go on longer), Slippers of Battledancing (CHA to damage)

So, with only a modest use of IC, we've got like 7d6 cold damage on every attack, using Inspirational Boost, Vest of Legends, and Song of the Heart. Some would suggest doubling your IC with an Exalted feat, but I don't much like BoED.

You've got both Mettle and Evasion. You're NOT going to fail a saving throw. So basically, the only thing you have to worry about is no-save effects. For that, you've got your Charisma bonus to AC, plus Mage Armor plus Shield.

Oh yea, Abjurant Champion means you also net yourself bonus on both Mage Armor and Shield spells, AND you can toss them up as a swift action. Make sure to get yourself a Ring of Wizardry I to double your 1st level spells, you'll be using a LOT of them. Maybe some Pearls of Power as well, since you'll be reusing the same spells over and over.

Does this build work for you?

This is a good build, but there are a couple of problems with it. Silverbrow doesn't change the damage type for your DFI, you still have to take the feat (or dip Dragon Shaman). Also, IIRC, Snowflake Wardance doesn't work with TWF. (I'm not as sure about that one, it might be wording open to interpretation).

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 06:31 PM
This is a good build, but there are a couple of problems with it. Silverbrow doesn't change the damage type for your DFI, you still have to take the feat (or dip Dragon Shaman). Also, IIRC, Snowflake Wardance doesn't work with TWF. (I'm not as sure about that one, it might be wording open to interpretation).

Ahh, you are correct. While the 'fluff' of Silverbrow Human says 'decended from silver dragons', it only gives you Dragontouched, not an actual Draconic Heritage: Silver. Thank you for catching that. There's going to have to be another feat shoehorned in there somewhere.

dextercorvia
2011-06-20, 06:35 PM
Ahh, my friend, welcome to the wonderful world of Totemist.

Blink Shirt is bound to Totem chakra by level 2. DimDoor as a *move action*. Combo with WRT and you have, effectively, infinite shadowpouncing.

However, the PrC Shadowlord requires 10 ranks in skills. That's level 7, minimum, and the ability Shadow Pounce is at level 4, which means 11th level.

Crinti Shadow Marauder might get you in under 10. It only requires 8 ranks, so that might do the job

For this one, I have a fondness for Sun-School. It doesn't work as well with massive numbers of natural attacks, but between using Ardent for Dimension Hop linked to Dimension Hop, (Blink Shirt is still good here), you can Teleport 3-4 times per round getting an attack at full BAB each time. Snap Kick lets you add an attack each time, but it gets expensive on the attack penalty.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 06:40 PM
For this one, I have a fondness for Sun-School. It doesn't work as well with massive numbers of natural attacks, but between using Ardent for Dimension Hop linked to Dimension Hop, (Blink Shirt is still good here), you can Teleport 3-4 times per round getting an attack at full BAB each time. Snap Kick lets you add an attack each time, but it gets expensive on the attack penalty.

True, Sun School is very nice, but Totemist has the added advantage of not requiring a whole lot. It's two levels, gets the requirements in-house, and gets out. Plus the absurdity of infinite shadow-pounces using WRT...

Lord_Gareth
2011-06-20, 06:40 PM
Alright, here's one for you:

I want a bard villain along the lines of Megamind; obsessed with "proper" supervillainy and the presentation of a real villain while being highly intelligent and devious. I'd like to see a focus on using illusions and traps in combination with each other (I can handle the "minions" aspect of it myself) with a strong blasting sub-theme for when he loses his head and starts trying to kill everything. If at all possible, I'd love to see him done as having fiendish ancestry of some kind and using Sublime Chord to match higher-level casting where it counts.

This build can be up to level seventeen, if you want to swing it that direction, and uses PC WBL.

dextercorvia
2011-06-20, 06:43 PM
True, Sun School is very nice, but Totemist has the added advantage of not requiring a whole lot. It's two levels, gets the requirements in-house, and gets out. Plus the absurdity of infinite shadow-pounces using WRT...

I'm almost positive that CSM gets shadow pounce at the same ECL as TS, though. So, I thought I would offer an alternative. I have no problem with Blink Shirt + WRT, if it can be had before then.

Fax Celestis
2011-06-20, 06:46 PM
I have one: an arcane warrior-mage who doesn't channel his spells into his attacks.

Zonugal
2011-06-20, 06:57 PM
I have one: an arcane warrior-mage who doesn't channel his spells into his attacks.

Dwarven Wizard 4/Crusader 1/Runesmith 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Runesmith 1?

TroubleBrewing
2011-06-20, 07:02 PM
I have one: an arcane warrior-mage who doesn't channel his spells into his attacks.

My first thought for this was the perennially snarky "LOL CLERIC:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:", but then I realized that that would be the perfect divine warrior-mage who doesn't channel his spells into his attacks.

And that's not even close to what you asked for. :smalltongue:

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 07:30 PM
Alright, here's one for you:

I want a bard villain along the lines of Megamind; obsessed with "proper" supervillainy and the presentation of a real villain while being highly intelligent and devious. I'd like to see a focus on using illusions and traps in combination with each other (I can handle the "minions" aspect of it myself) with a strong blasting sub-theme for when he loses his head and starts trying to kill everything. If at all possible, I'd love to see him done as having fiendish ancestry of some kind and using Sublime Chord to match higher-level casting where it counts.

This build can be up to level seventeen, if you want to swing it that direction, and uses PC WBL.

Well, you can do that with my Joker Bard concept, see link below, for the most part. He's pretty much the owner of the Xanatos Roulette Wheel.

Hmm... strong blasting sub-theme + Bard = sonic to my way of thinking. And Sonic is a good flavor to blast in anyways.

I wonder... Born of Three Thunders kind of blasting? That'll do blasting plus a bit of battlefield control for the PC's to worry about as his minions (boosted with IC) close in.

Right, but what to blast with? Sound Burst is good for Fort Save or Screwed, but very low damage. Is there a reserve feat that is sonic based he can use?

What do you want out of the higher level spells that only Sublime Chord can get? Most of what you are asking about so far only needs Bard-level casting.

For example: Permanent Image of himself to taunt the players with, while he has Greater Invisibility up. They attack the image, it poofs, he laughs at their futility. In fact, he might even be using Magic Mouth or similar methods of talking to them from a distance. Ventriloquism works well to pitch your voice at the illusion.

Illusionary Walls are also a lot of fun. Stacking a Prismatic Wall behind an Illusionary one is even more fun. Putting an Illusionary Wall one square off from a real wall that has various Symbol spells (or just 'I prepared explosive runes this morning') are always an amusing way to make people regret ever turning on their True Sight.

Anticipate Teleport and Divert Teleport ensure that they are not rude enough to bypass any of your little tricks. Having a handy friend cast Forbiddance or Dimensional Lock is always lots of fun as well. Fool Scry is always a blast at parties, to keep the Scry n Die tactics at bay.

Now then, demonic heritage... that could be as easily done as Tiefling, if it wasn't for the CHA penalty. The demonic heritage feats mostly aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Half-Fiend gets some nice SLA's, but not nice enough to overcome the CR modifier.

3rd eye: Conceal works well for a mind-blank, and can be the 'Ooooohh... Shiny...' part of the loot once they drop him.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 07:38 PM
I have one: an arcane warrior-mage who doesn't channel his spells into his attacks.

Okay, a Gish who doesn't channel his spells into his attacks. That's doable. Do you want him to be a powerful buffer, able to boost his ability and his allies before wading into combat? Do you want him to be Battlefield Control, locking down opponents with blade and spell? Do you want him to be a Blastomancer, and blow stuff up?

It's kind of a bit vague how you're wanting to go about doing things.

I mean, Suel Arcanamach is perfect for 'gish who buffs', particularly going into Abjurant Champion and War Weaver if he is into group buffing.

If you are wanting more blastomancy... you may wish to consider... well... Warlock. 3/4 BAB, unlimited blasting, has some battlefield control... and doesn't channel his arcane might into his blade. He simply forms a coherant blade of energy which slices and dices, if he deems it necessary.

For more of a battlefield control specialist that also does a bit of buffing, you can try Pal2(of whatever alignment variant you want)/Sorc4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5, with a heavy focus on the battlefield control spells. Your casting stat also goes to your saving throws.

Grendus
2011-06-20, 07:43 PM
Yea, the Arcane Warrior/Mage is pretty easy, just try a sorcadin that doesn't take Arcane Strike. You're gimping yourself a bit, but you're still fairly versatile. Heck, if you aren't incredibly picky about it being arcane magic and can withstand psionics, the Psychic Warrior fits this concept out of the box with the same basic flavor.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 07:45 PM
Yea, the Arcane Warrior/Mage is pretty easy, just try a sorcadin that doesn't take Arcane Strike. You're gimping yourself a bit, but you're still fairly versatile. Heck, if you aren't incredibly picky about it being arcane magic and can withstand psionics, the Psychic Warrior fits this concept out of the box.

Well, he explicitly stated Arcane, which is why I didn't go the PsyWar route. And really, Arcane Strike isn't all that much to write home about when you're dropping three to six Save or Lose spells on opponents per turn, depending on your familiar.

Shadowknight12
2011-06-20, 07:49 PM
Saved for posterity.


This is a really awesome concept!

When I saw 'dual Kukri', I immediately thought "Invisible Blade, or maybe Crit Fisher". Then I saw you wanted more of a 'tank' build, who can 'just say NO... to YES', with an ice-theme to it, and magic as a bonus.

Some people like to play a bastard of a guy who dual-wields daggers, and loves to shiv people with them. Some people like to play a 'Mr. NO'. I ask you, is it too much to ask for both? I say to that... NO.

My friend, this is not a problem. Allow me to introduce you to the wonderful world of Dragonfire Inspiration.

Have you ever heard of the Haka Ka Mate? Sounds like it would be just up this guy's alley.

So you've got Perform (Dance), dual-wielding kukri, and using Silverbrow Human (free Draconic Heritage: Silver) to get bonus ice damage on every attack. And by bonus damage, we're talking several handfuls of d6's.

You're wanting a bunch of 'Just say NO to YES', and we can accommodate that request as well. It's called Warblade, and White Raven Song. There's a trio of maneuvers that let you replace a Concentration check for your Saving Throw of choice. Considering how pathetically easy it is to boost Concentration checks, you can pretty much bet the farm that you can make any saving throw that they throw at you.

You see, with the feat White Raven Song, you get to add your Bard and your Warblade levels together for purposes of Inspire Courage, which is adding more d6's with Dragonfire Inspiration.

But you want more damage too? Fine. It's called Tiger Claw. Specifically, x-ing Mongoose boosts for more attacks, and and Pouncing Strike to let you make a full attack on a charge.

Oh, and don't forget, Warblade is a d12 HD, just like Barbarian. So you'll have tons of hit points.

Nut that's not enough, is it? Even if you make saves, you've still got problems with some spells still having some effects, right? So a two-level dip in Witch Hunter nets you Mettle. I'd have been tempted to go Crusader to pick it up as we go along, but it doesn't give you the 'NO' ability that the diamond mind maneuvers grant you, nor does it give you the extra damage output.

For Evasion... well, much as I hate to suggest it, there's always Monk. So if we're going to take a two-level dip in Monk, let us realize what we are really talking about here.

First off, the AC bonus. Well, there's a way around that. Since we're going Bard anyways, might as well pick up Ascetic Mage (since Bard *IS* a spontaneous arcane caster), so now you've got your CHA bonus to AC as well as your casting stat! Evasion, of course.

Now then, let's use a variant of Monk called the Cobra Strike Discipline. It's the very first one found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les). It nets you free Dodge and Mobility. That means you can pick up Elusive Target, and completely negate an opponent's power attack. You're now completely ignoring all Shock Trooper builds.

Now then, to continue with the ice-based theme, using your Charisma is always fun, so there's Snowflake Wardance, both thematic and appropriate for the situation. Battledancing Slippers also adds to the fun.

So, to recap:

Monk2/Bard4/Warblade 9/Witch Hunter 2/Abjurant Champion3

Feats: Song of the Heart (increase IC), two-weapon fighting, White Raven Song (stacks Bard with Warblade for IC), Dragonfire Inspiration (so IC does xd6 Cold damage), Elusive Target, Snowflake Wardance, improved TWF, Greater TWF.

Gear: Vest of Legends (more Inspire Courage), Harmonizing kukri (lets your IC go on longer), Slippers of Battledancing (CHA to damage)

So, with only a modest use of IC, we've got like 7d6 cold damage on every attack, using Inspirational Boost, Vest of Legends, and Song of the Heart. Some would suggest doubling your IC with an Exalted feat, but I don't much like BoED.

You've got both Mettle and Evasion. You're NOT going to fail a saving throw. So basically, the only thing you have to worry about is no-save effects. For that, you've got your Charisma bonus to AC, plus Mage Armor plus Shield.

Oh yea, Abjurant Champion means you also net yourself bonus on both Mage Armor and Shield spells, AND you can toss them up as a swift action. Make sure to get yourself a Ring of Wizardry I to double your 1st level spells, you'll be using a LOT of them. Maybe some Pearls of Power as well, since you'll be reusing the same spells over and over.


Does this build work for you?

Yes. Yes it does. It works out wonderfully, actually. If the amount of awesomeness in your person were to be converted into liquid gold, the Earth would be known as the Golden Planet. You have my thanks, respect, firstborn child and a beverage of your choice. Plus eight hundred and sixty-two internets.


This is a good build, but there are a couple of problems with it. Silverbrow doesn't change the damage type for your DFI, you still have to take the feat (or dip Dragon Shaman). Also, IIRC, Snowflake Wardance doesn't work with TWF. (I'm not as sure about that one, it might be wording open to interpretation).

Well, the first thing is okay, since it's solvable by a feat. The latter... well, I used Snowflake Wardance on a satyr who dual-wielded bastard swords once, and the DM allowed me to apply it to both weapons. So it's not that hard to convince a DM to interpret it that way.


Ahh, you are correct. While the 'fluff' of Silverbrow Human says 'decended from silver dragons', it only gives you Dragontouched, not an actual Draconic Heritage: Silver. Thank you for catching that. There's going to have to be another feat shoehorned in there somewhere.

I don't think that's a problem. It can be solved by taking flaws!

If you'll excuse me, the urge to go make a character sheet is rapidly taking over me. My heartfelt thanks, again. You have no idea how long I've been trying to build this character.

kardar233
2011-06-20, 07:55 PM
Here's one.

This guy is a little crazy. He wreaks havoc with enemies by showing up in their midst, butchering their leader with his paired blades and then disabling any retribution from his compatriots before zooming away to repeat. He loves fire. Definitely a glass cannon/fragile speedster.

I was thinking a mix of two-weapon fighting and battlefield control. Dex focus, lots of precision and per-hit damage, plenty of attacks (maybe from tricky things, like boot spikes or something), some stealth capability.

Can you work with that?

Lord Ruby34
2011-06-20, 08:03 PM
Drizzt Do'Urdan. I know that he already has an official build, but I need one that doesn't suck. I was going to build him myself, but my only idea was Dervish.

Grendus
2011-06-20, 08:12 PM
Here's one.

This guy is a little crazy. He wreaks havoc with enemies by showing up in their midst, butchering their leader with his paired blades and then disabling any retribution from his compatriots before zooming away to repeat. He loves fire. Definitely a glass cannon/fragile speedster.

I was thinking a mix of two-weapon fighting and battlefield control. Dex focus, lots of precision and per-hit damage, plenty of attacks (maybe from tricky things, like boot spikes or something), some stealth capability.

Can you work with that?

Question - is he sneaking into their midst in a mundane way, slipping in invisible, teleporting in, or flying? Mundane sneaking sounds like some kind of swashbuckler type, while going with magic sounds like a standard gish (with the fast evisceration I'm thinking some variety of swiftblade, if using an online source doesn't violate the challenge).

For an arcane type, maybe something like Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Daggerspell Mage 10/Swiftblade 3/X 1. Warp into combat, eviscerate, warp out. Swiftblade can be rotated in anywhere in the combo, by the time you qualify for Daggerspell Mage you also qualify for Swiftblade.

Draz74
2011-06-20, 08:13 PM
If you'll excuse me, the urge to go make a character sheet is rapidly taking over me. My heartfelt thanks, again. You have no idea how long I've been trying to build this character.

If you want a totally different build that fits the same concept, you could also go for a combination of Tome of Battle with Cryokineticist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e).

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 08:20 PM
Drizzt Do'Urdan. I know that he already has an official build, but I need one that doesn't suck. I was going to build him myself, but my only idea was Dervish.

Well, the problem is that TWF really is sub-optimal without damage-boosting.

Although, we can... hmmm... fine tune his build quite nicely.

Fighter4... sure, we'll let that pass. Need the extra feats anyways with the Feat Tax that TWF involves

Barbarian Dip. Spirit lion Totem, and this suddenly makes sense, with Pounce. Whirling Frenzy also makes this an ideal dip.

Ranger to flavor. Well, here's the problem. You already got Fighter to start off with, so you don't need TWF, which means a bonus feat wasted. I don't like waste in my builds... hmmm...

I know!

The youngest son of the Do'Urdan clan was born and raised as a scout. He excelled on point, spotting ambushes and traps more easily than any of his yearmates could

To me, this says Scout4 to start off with.

So, now we have Scout4/Barbarian1/Ranger to taste. Swift Hunter, much?

Now that we've got some actual damage output here, he isn't so full of Suck and Fail.

Mind you, it's still a sub-optimal choice, but at least now he's got a chance of doing something other than dying, without Plot Fiat (i.e. the old 3.0 vorpal rule being applied to him).

togapika
2011-06-20, 08:22 PM
Could you make a shapeshifter who uses that as his primary method of combat?
I don't want to have to worry about casting spells, I don't want to have decisions about what would be best in combat. I just want to shift and rip faces off...

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 08:23 PM
Could you make a shapeshifter who uses that as his primary method of combat?
I don't want to have to worry about casting spells, I don't want to have decisions about what would be best in combat. I just want to shift and rip faces off...

Wildshape Ranger 5/Master of Many Forms 10/Warshaper 3/Nature's Warrior 2.

You can turn into... just about anything you want to. And eat people. All day long. Pick a couple of forms ahead of time and pre-stat them out, so it's easy.

Failing that, Barbarian/Bear Warrior/Warshaper. You're a barbarian that turns into a bear and eats people. It really doesn't get much more simple than that.

Jade Dragon
2011-06-20, 08:25 PM
Well, the problem is that TWF really is sub-optimal without damage-boosting.

Although, we can... hmmm... fine tune his build quite nicely.

Fighter4... sure, we'll let that pass. Need the extra feats anyways with the Feat Tax that TWF involves

Barbarian Dip. Spirit lion Totem, and this suddenly makes sense, with Pounce. Whirling Frenzy also makes this an ideal dip.

Ranger to flavor. Well, here's the problem. You already got Fighter to start off with, so you don't need TWF, which means a bonus feat wasted. I don't like waste in my builds... hmmm...

I know!

The youngest son of the Do'Urdan clan was born and raised as a scout. He excelled on point, spotting ambushes and traps more easily than any of his yearmates could

To me, this says Scout4 to start off with.

So, now we have Scout4/Barbarian1/Ranger to taste. Swift Hunter, much?

Now that we've got some actual damage output here, he isn't so full of Suck and Fail.

Mind you, it's still a sub-optimal choice, but at least now he's got a chance of doing something other than dying, without Plot Fiat (i.e. the old 3.0 vorpal rule being applied to him).

Throw some warblade levels in there. He has a few tiger claw maneuvers, and iron heart and diamond mind wouldn't be alien to his concept. And he definitely has the pounce barbarian ACF.

Zaq
2011-06-20, 08:32 PM
I want to see a very reactive character who spreads his actions out all over the initiative order. He should ready an action as often as not, and should have a reason to do so. Ideally, he'd also be able to make ample (if not constant) use of AoOs, but if something must be sacrificed, this would probably be it. Having a reliable source of useful immediate actions is also important. He should also be useful against a wide variety of foes . . . readying an action to disrupt spellcasting is all well and good, but you're not always facing casters. He should still have a reason to ready actions. I'd prefer it if there was more to it than "LOL SYNCHRONICITY."

No level in mind, but the sooner he gets off the ground, the better. Magic is fine, but since AoOs are a goal (if one that can be sacrificed), someone who can stand in front and be threatening with a weapon isn't a bad idea. The critical thing is that readying the action must give him some kind of concrete advantage over just doing what he wanted to do normally. Super double bonus points if you can do this in E6 (since that's the campaign I'm actually currently in), but no biggie if you want to go standard.

Ajadea
2011-06-20, 08:40 PM
How about this pair of antagonists?

A gishy leader-type who can take out a good deal of mooks each round. Must use arcane magic, be a competent warrior, self-sufficient (even if it doesn't shine as much) despite the focus on leadership, and not use race-specific PrCs. The build should be 15th-17th level, and has to be useful before then even if it can't do everything it is supposed to.

And a changeling 'whipping girl', for a lack of a better term. Must be able to mimic the abilities of the aforementioned leader/gish to a lesser degree (that is: arcane magic and competent melee ability) while also being able to spy through all the wardings a nigh-infinite number of level 7 clerics can put up. 12th-14th level build.

Thanks, Shneekey!

Shadowknight12
2011-06-20, 08:40 PM
If you want a totally different build that fits the same concept, you could also go for a combination of Tome of Battle with Cryokineticist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e).

Oh dear. You've hit two of the three systems I'm most unfamiliar with. Throw Incarnum in there and you'll hit the jackpot.

If I might ask, what exactly am I doing with those two components? Cryokineticist doesn't advance psionic manifesting, so... what does it do? At first glance, it looks like it's got a few power-like abilities and some resistances.

Lord Ruby34
2011-06-20, 08:44 PM
Throw some warblade levels in there. He has a few tiger claw maneuvers, and iron heart and diamond mind wouldn't be alien to his concept. And he definitely has the pounce barbarian ACF.

Should I throw a Dervish Dip in there or just take oversized Two Weapon Fighting? Dervish gives some nice bonuses for Scimitar Wielders, and He needs to wield a pair of them. And Weapon Finesse would help with the whole hitting thing since I don't expect his strength to be great.

Jade Dragon
2011-06-20, 08:47 PM
Should I throw a Dervish Dip in there or just take oversized Two Weapon Fighting? Dervish gives some nice bonuses for Scimitar Wielders, and He needs to wield a pair of them. And Weapon Finesse would help with the whole hitting thing since I don't expect his strength to be great.

If you ignore the dance rank requirement, which is just there for fluff, yeah.

QuidEst
2011-06-20, 08:47 PM
Sorry, I just wanted to make sure Scralt, the charismatic demolitions expert, didn't slip through the cracks. I'm fine if you're busy, I'd just hate to wind up with only one of the duo optimized. XP Thanks again for doing this! I'd really cool to see.

Draz74
2011-06-20, 08:57 PM
Oh dear. You've hit two of the three systems I'm most unfamiliar with. Throw Incarnum in there and you'll hit the jackpot.

If I might ask, what exactly am I doing with those two components? Cryokineticist doesn't advance psionic manifesting, so... what does it do? At first glance, it looks like it's got a few power-like abilities and some resistances.

Cryokineticist doesn't use most of the psionics system; it's pretty simple. Mostly it's there to let you add first +2d6, then later +4d6 cold damage to your weapons psychicly. The ability to whip creatures with a whip made of thoughts and cold is a bonus, too. And so on. Just cold-themed abilities.

Tome of Battle, on the other hand, is to give you lots of hit points and defensive abilities, and to make your dual-wielding tactics not suck. Unfortunately, Crusader, which gets the coolest defensive abilities (like the ability to make a Fortitude save to not die, at high levels), doesn't get the TWF-stuff without spending a lot of feats on it. So unless you're willing to spend said feats, Warblade would probably be better. Warblade still gets some pretty good defensive abilities.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 09:01 PM
Sorry, I just wanted to make sure Scralt, the charismatic demolitions expert, didn't slip through the cracks. I'm fine if you're busy, I'd just hate to wind up with only one of the duo optimized. XP Thanks again for doing this! I'd really cool to see.

Hmmm... I can appreciate that. I've been mulling him over all day, trying to figure out how to do it... properly.

The problem is that there isn't a lot of ways to mundanely go about doing what you would like him to do.

I could make him a Warlock. His 'trick cigar' could just as easily be a Wand of Color Spray, for example. He could use Exploding Runes for many of his traps, or Fire Trap, for that matter.

But that would be magic, rather than mundane explosives.

I'm afraid D&D is designed for a world in which gunpowder is not widely available.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 09:25 PM
I want to see a very reactive character who spreads his actions out all over the initiative order. He should ready an action as often as not, and should have a reason to do so. Ideally, he'd also be able to make ample (if not constant) use of AoOs, but if something must be sacrificed, this would probably be it. Having a reliable source of useful immediate actions is also important. He should also be useful against a wide variety of foes . . . readying an action to disrupt spellcasting is all well and good, but you're not always facing casters. He should still have a reason to ready actions. I'd prefer it if there was more to it than "LOL SYNCHRONICITY."

No level in mind, but the sooner he gets off the ground, the better. Magic is fine, but since AoOs are a goal (if one that can be sacrificed), someone who can stand in front and be threatening with a weapon isn't a bad idea. The critical thing is that readying the action must give him some kind of concrete advantage over just doing what he wanted to do normally. Super double bonus points if you can do this in E6 (since that's the campaign I'm actually currently in), but no biggie if you want to go standard.

Ahh, a person who has mastered the Passive Way? Truly, that is a fascinating concept, but one which is poorly expressed within the D&D rules set. But, let us see what we can do.

If he wishes to be good with AoO, he will need reach. He will also need a way to make it more difficult for opponents to avoid that reach. Only then can he truly begin the path of the passive way.

Let us see if we can cast this mold within the E6 system.

First, we need reach. For this, there are few options available to you. Most common is Psychic Warrior. This fits the concept of the Passive Way being one which uses Chi to flow around his opponents. Expansion gives you reach, and Psychic Warrior grants a bonus feat for Spiked Chain.

Next, my friend, a true master of the Passive Way must remain at peace, calm in the face of adversity, and allowing himself to move with the ebb and flow of the movements around him. A Monk of the Passive Way (variant monk: Passive Way style, from the SRD) has the necessary fluidity. And Combat Expertise and Improved Trip and Evasion to ignore blastomancy.

So, my friend, I see Psychic Warrior4/Monk2. This is not incompatible, far from it.

Other feats which might interest you would be Karmic Strike, so that for every blow which misses you, one shall be delivered unto your opponent, and if ToB is allowed, Martial Study: Setting Sun (Baffling Defense), which allows you to make a Sense Motive check to make an opponent miss.

Combat Reflexes, I am assuming, is a must. If you are worried you won't get enough, then take the power Prowess, which enables you to spend 3pp to make an attack of opportunity. I hope you are a wise person, for you will need to depend on your bonus PP from your Wis score to fuel this. Hustle is also a good choice for a Power, as it gives you additional mobility.

In brief, you threaten a 20' radius around you. Use this to your advantage, and always seek to be close to your opponents when they do anything which might threaten an AoO. When they attack you, first you attack them because they must close with you, then you may attack them a second time when they miss. Two for the price of none is a good deal, eh?

There's also a feat called Mage Slayer you need. Casters you threaten cannot cast on the defensive. This is MUCH better than readying a Dispel Magic to counterspell, as you have better odds of hitting him in an E3 game, and his concentration check will be much harder to overcome than a contested caster level.

Pierce Magical Concealment is also probably going to be necessary to effectively threaten casters in an E6 game.

Again, if ToB content is allowed, the feat Martial Study: Shadow Hand (Shadow Jaunt) gives you much-needed mobility, while Martial Stance (Island of Blades) allows you to flank for opponents MUCH easier. Your party's rogue will thank you for it. From there, Shadow Blade allows you to use your Dex for damage, leaving Strength practically a dump stat.

But then, you do have a surplus of feats in E6, don't you?

So, from level 1, you are doing your shtick: Expansion + Spiked Chain + Combat Reflexes for massive AoO's. The rest of it just lets you do it better.

kardar233
2011-06-20, 09:33 PM
Question - is he sneaking into their midst in a mundane way, slipping in invisible, teleporting in, or flying? Mundane sneaking sounds like some kind of swashbuckler type, while going with magic sounds like a standard gish (with the fast evisceration I'm thinking some variety of swiftblade, if using an online source doesn't violate the challenge).

For an arcane type, maybe something like Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Daggerspell Mage 10/Swiftblade 3/X 1. Warp into combat, eviscerate, warp out. Swiftblade can be rotated in anywhere in the combo, by the time you qualify for Daggerspell Mage you also qualify for Swiftblade.

I'm sort of indifferent as to how he gets there, as long as it's fast, so stealth is out.

That build in particular isn't quite what I'm looking for, as it loses the post-butchering lockdown that I was thinking of, and I'm not seeing the escape mechanism without fiddling with Celerity. I was thinking of him going in, making his full attack or whatever to carve that one target into little tiny pieces, and then having the battlefield control to deal with his friends, at least until he can move away to repeat.

Zaq
2011-06-20, 09:34 PM
Ahh, a person who has mastered the Passive Way? Truly, that is a fascinating concept, but one which is poorly expressed within the D&D rules set. But, let us see what we can do.


If he wishes to be good with AoO, he will need reach. He will also need a way to make it more difficult for opponents to avoid that reach. Only then can he truly begin the path of the passive way.

Let us see if we can cast this mold within the E6 system.

First, we need reach. For this, there are few options available to you. Most common is Psychic Warrior. This fits the concept of the Passive Way being one which uses Chi to flow around his opponents. Expansion gives you reach, and Psychic Warrior grants a bonus feat for Spiked Chain.

Next, my friend, a true master of the Passive Way must remain at peace, calm in the face of adversity, and allowing himself to move with the ebb and flow of the movements around him. A Monk of the Passive Way (variant monk: Passive Way style, from the SRD) has the necessary fluidity. And Combat Expertise and Improved Trip and Evasion to ignore blastomancy.

So, my friend, I see Psychic Warrior4/Monk2. This is not incompatible, far from it.

Other feats which might interest you would be Karmic Strike, so that for every blow which misses you, one shall be delivered unto your opponent, and if ToB is allowed, Martial Study: Setting Sun (Baffling Defense), which allows you to make a Sense Motive check to make an opponent miss.

Combat Reflexes, I am assuming, is a must. If you are worried you won't get enough, then take the power Prowess, which enables you to spend 3pp to make an attack of opportunity. I hope you are a wise person, for you will need to depend on your bonus PP from your Wis score to fuel this. Hustle is also a good choice for a Power, as it gives you additional mobility.

In brief, you threaten a 20' radius around you. Use this to your advantage, and always seek to be close to your opponents when they do anything which might threaten an AoO. When they attack you, first you attack them because they must close with you, then you may attack them a second time when they miss. Two for the price of none is a good deal, eh?

There's also a feat called Mage Slayer you need. Casters you threaten cannot cast on the defensive. This is MUCH better than readying a Dispel Magic to counterspell, as you have better odds of hitting him in an E3 game, and his concentration check will be much harder to overcome than a contested caster level.

Pierce Magical Concealment is also probably going to be necessary to effectively threaten casters in an E6 game.

Again, if ToB content is allowed, the feat Martial Study: Shadow Hand (Shadow Jaunt) gives you much-needed mobility, while Martial Stance (Island of Blades) allows you to flank for opponents MUCH easier. Your party's rogue will thank you for it. From there, Shadow Blade allows you to use your Dex for damage, leaving Strength practically a dump stat.

But then, you do have a surplus of feats in E6, don't you?

So, from level 1, you are doing your shtick: Expansion + Spiked Chain + Combat Reflexes for massive AoO's. The rest of it just lets you do it better.

Most classy, sir, but I'm afraid that I don't see the readied actions, which is (in my mind) a criminally underused mechanic. Can we give our serene friend any kind of reason to prepare his actions in anticipation of the moves of others, in addition to simply reacting faster than the eye can see and the mind can think?

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 09:43 PM
How about this pair of antagonists?

A gishy leader-type who can take out a good deal of mooks each round. Must use arcane magic, be a competent warrior, self-sufficient (even if it doesn't shine as much) despite the focus on leadership, and not use race-specific PrCs. The build should be 15th-17th level, and has to be useful before then even if it can't do everything it is supposed to.Arcane gishy type, huh? Competent warrior, self-sufficent, and not use race-specific PrC's.

Well now, there's a couple of ways to do this. Warforged Artificer first springs to mind. I'm not the best one with that class, but I'm sure there are others on this board who can show you precisely why they are considered a Tier 1 class.

Actually, Warforged is a pretty good idea. It's really the only way Arcane and Self Sufficient get along nicely, with Repair Damage.

What kind of casting and fighting do you envision him doing? Do you see him buffing up his allies? Do you see him doing Crowd Control? Do you see him doing flashy blastomancy? Do you see him using illusions to confound and confuse his opponents?

There's too many ways to go with this. Let's narrow down the archetype... what is it you want him to do?


And a changeling 'whipping girl', for a lack of a better term. Must be able to mimic the abilities of the aforementioned leader/gish to a lesser degree (that is: arcane magic and competent melee ability) while also being able to spy through all the wardings a nigh-infinite number of level 7 clerics can put up. 12th-14th level build.When you say 'spy through all the wardings a nigh-infinite number of level 7 clerics can put up', I think 'Joker Bard'.

Bards are a 3/4 BAB class with some magic, so that kind of fits the whole 'gish lite' thing you are going for in-house. First level should be Rogue, though, and make sure to take the racial substitution level to Take 10 on social skills. She can Bluff and Diplomance with the best of 'em. Take the racial feat that lets her 'ping' as whatever disguise she is at the time to Divinations, and you've got a natural spy who is almost impossible to be caught, right from level 1. Once she hits 3rd level spells, however, Glibness and Magic Aura (to hide the illusion aura) puts the final nail in the coffin. At that point, she can literally walk into a Zone of Truth and lie her arse off, and *NO ONE* would be able to call her on it. Hell, even if they pull her into an Anti-Magic Field, they STILL have to beat her insanely high Bluff check, since she can Take 10 on it.

Tack on moderate IC optimization (a good idea anyways, if Mr. Boss is focusing on leadership and tons of minions, makes 'em a hell of a lot nastier) and she's surprisingly lethal in combat as well.


Thanks, Shneekey!Anything I can do to keep another Stormwind fallacy from being posted on the forums.

Essence_of_War
2011-06-20, 09:45 PM
Okay I would like a mage slayer. Spell resistance or spell immunity would be nice. High saves mixed with evasion and mettle would be cool. Should be able to deal with flying and/or invisible opponents.

Keeping in mind that it is extremely hard to kill an optimized magic-user except with another greater or equally optimized magic-user. We can try something like this:

Paladin 2/Hexblade 2/ Monk 2/Occult Slayer 5/Witch Slayer 5

You'll need a couple of ranks of spellcraft, sense motive, knowledge(religion), imp initiative, and weapon focus to qualify for the prestige classes.

You get Cha to saves and Cha to save vs. spells (which stacks!), mettle, slippery mind, and evasion. The occult slayer gives you nondetection (meh) and blank thoughts (yay!). Witch slayer allows you to disjoin magic users temporarily. The save is somewhat...unimpressive...but with ability focus, and a really buffed charisma, among others, there are ways to make it hard to beat.

Plus, it gives you a handful of levels to play with, feel free to top with your favorite 4 levels of whipped cream.

I'll have some feat suggestions in the morning, but you can get the entire mage-slayer line features prominently.

Jade Dragon
2011-06-20, 09:49 PM
Keeping in mind that it is extremely hard to kill an optimized magic-user except with another greater or equally optimized magic-user. We can try something like this:

Paladin 2/Hexblade 2/ Monk 2/Occult Slayer 5/Witch Slayer 5

You'll need a couple of ranks of spellcraft, sense motive, knowledge(religion), imp initiative, and weapon focus to qualify for the prestige classes.

You get Cha to saves and Cha to save vs. spells (which stacks!), mettle, slippery mind, and evasion. The occult slayer gives you nondetection (meh) and blank thoughts (yay!). Witch slayer allows you to disjoin magic users temporarily. The save is somewhat...unimpressive...but with ability focus, and a really buffed charisma, among others, there are ways to make it hard to beat.

Plus, it gives you a handful of levels to play with, feel free to top with your favorite 4 levels of whipped cream.

I'll have some feat suggestions in the morning, but you can get the entire mage-slayer line features prominently.

What gives you mettle? You need three levels of hexblade for that.

jvluso
2011-06-20, 09:49 PM
Most classy, sir, but I'm afraid that I don't see the readied actions, which is (in my mind) a criminally underused mechanic. Can we give our serene friend any kind of reason to prepare his actions in anticipation of the moves of others, in addition to simply reacting faster than the eye can see and the mind can think?

There are two ways I know of that you can make a build which gets additional benefits from readying an action. The first is simple: using a weapon which can be readied against a charge. However, if you wear steadfast boots (MIC p.138, 1400gp), this can be any two-handed weapon, and no longer uses your standard action.

The other way is imposable in E6: the second level ability of the Occult Slayer, Vicious Strike. This allows you to deal double damage when readying an action to disrupt a spell-caster.

Shadowknight12
2011-06-20, 09:49 PM
Cryokineticist doesn't use most of the psionics system; it's pretty simple. Mostly it's there to let you add first +2d6, then later +4d6 cold damage to your weapons psychicly. The ability to whip creatures with a whip made of thoughts and cold is a bonus, too. And so on. Just cold-themed abilities.

Tome of Battle, on the other hand, is to give you lots of hit points and defensive abilities, and to make your dual-wielding tactics not suck. Unfortunately, Crusader, which gets the coolest defensive abilities (like the ability to make a Fortitude save to not die, at high levels), doesn't get the TWF-stuff without spending a lot of feats on it. So unless you're willing to spend said feats, Warblade would probably be better. Warblade still gets some pretty good defensive abilities.

Ahh, okay. But it doesn't count towards your initiator level, does it? Or only by half?

Hm. Can't that be fixed somehow? Something like Martial Study?

I was also thinking, since this build is Cha heavy and Dex-weak, is there a way to get TWF without having to qualify for the feat? And would it be worth sacrificing two levels of Abjurant Champion for two levels of paladin to get Divine Grace? I was considering Crusader instead, but I saw that the Cha bonus only applies to Will saves.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 09:52 PM
Most classy, sir, but I'm afraid that I don't see the readied actions, which is (in my mind) a criminally underused mechanic. Can we give our serene friend any kind of reason to prepare his actions in anticipation of the moves of others, in addition to simply reacting faster than the eye can see and the mind can think?

Ready an action to:

* Attack the caster if he starts casting a spell (that way, you get TWO chances at making him flub. One for the readied action, and one for the AoO)

* Trip anyone who gets close to my healer/caster. That way, if they get past you somehow (high Tumble check, probably), you've still got your chance to get them before they get your support group.

* to cast either Biofeedback (DR/-) or Vigor (temp hit points) if I get swarmed (to survive in case they DO start landing blows on me)

Actually, E6 is the BEST place to ready actions, because you don't really lose much. You see, most people complain that readied actions are traps because you only get ONE standard action with it, which generally means losing a BUNCH of attacks in your Full Attack Progression. But if you only GET one attack anyways... then it is entirely and always to your advantage to choose the best time and place to take that action.

So position yourself well, then allow your opponents to save you the trouble of closing the distance. Your only true concern will be archers and others who can harm you outside your Circle of Death. That's why Shadow Jaunt is so much fun. 60' teleportation as a standard action.


Ahh, okay. But it doesn't count towards your initiator level, does it? Or only by half?

Hm. Can't that be fixed somehow? Something like Martial Study?

I was also thinking, since this build is Cha heavy and Dex-weak, is there a way to get TWF without having to qualify for the feat? And would it be worth sacrificing two levels of Abjurant Champion for two levels of paladin to get Divine Grace? I was considering Crusader instead, but I saw that the Cha bonus only applies to Will saves.

you already GET Divine Grace with Paladin of Freedom variant. That's the two first levels in the build. However, you trade Saves for AC, because you have the maneuvers that let you Concentration Check your way through saves.


What gives you mettle? You need three levels of hexblade for that.

Witch Slayer 2 does.

Grendus
2011-06-20, 10:20 PM
I'm sort of indifferent as to how he gets there, as long as it's fast, so stealth is out.

That build in particular isn't quite what I'm looking for, as it loses the post-butchering lockdown that I was thinking of, and I'm not seeing the escape mechanism without fiddling with Celerity. I was thinking of him going in, making his full attack or whatever to carve that one target into little tiny pieces, and then having the battlefield control to deal with his friends, at least until he can move away to repeat.

Hmm. Escape mechanism is easy with abrupt jaunt (does mean you have to be a conjurer rather than a transmuter), but I'm a little confused on the crowd control requirement. Are we talking magical lockdown or melee lockdown?

For magic, the easiest way is to pre-buff with Freedom of Movement, drop Black Tentacles, fly/teleport in and full sneak attack the now grappled (and thus flat footed) enemy, and fly/teleport out. For melee, it gets trickier. Since we have a ridiculous dex (for TWF you almost have to), you have the basis of a tripper build. Eviscerate your target in the surprise round, using Nerveskitter and Shock and Awe to make sure you win initiative. Second round you full attack as trip attempts, using Combat Reflexes to lock them down. If you can squeeze in grease, you can sneak attack with any attacks you have left over. Downside is you can get tripped back, and against level appropriate melee enemies you'll probably be outmatched.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-20, 10:30 PM
Here's one.

This guy is a little crazy. He wreaks havoc with enemies by showing up in their midst, butchering their leader with his paired blades and then disabling any retribution from his compatriots before zooming away to repeat. He loves fire. Definitely a glass cannon/fragile speedster.

I was thinking a mix of two-weapon fighting and battlefield control. Dex focus, lots of precision and per-hit damage, plenty of attacks (maybe from tricky things, like boot spikes or something), some stealth capability.

Can you work with that?

Hmmm... TWFing and Battlefield Control, lots of precision and per-hit damage, lots of attacks, and some stealthing...

There's a few ways we could go about building this sneaky speedster.

First, probably most obvious, is Swiftblade. The problem is, of course, where the extra damage is coming from. I suppose you could go Scout/Conjurer (trade in familiar for short-range teleportation, or get the reserve feat)/Swiftblade, but that's still not a whole lot of bonus damages. I suppose this is one time where arcane channeling is the flavor of the day, but I don't think that works too well either...

Wait. A. Sec.

...

Okay, this is going into Dragon Mag territory, for which I apologize in advance, but remember True Shinken's Melee Warlock Guide? Eldritch Claws + HFW + Legacy Champion may be just what you are looking for. With either Crinti Shadow Soldier or Tefflamar Shadowlord for Shadow Pounce + Flee The Scene to get in, make a full attack, and get out.

Heck, at higher levels, you get Retributive Invisibility, for at-will Greater Invisibility that really hurts when someone tries to get rid of it.

You've got Battlefield Control with an Eldritch Essence, or other invocations. Chilling Tentacles, Beshadowed Blast, Hindering Blast, Noxious Blast, Bewitching Blast... you've got Damage + Save or Lose. And with Eldritch Chain, Cone, and Line, you've got the ability to apply that to multiple targets. Don't forget Vitriolic Blast to ignore SR.

And you've got TWF feat chain, and Eldritch Claws. With new and improved Hellfire + Binder 1 (that Grinning Hound for stat recovery) + Legacy Champion (to improve Hellfire damage output to insane levels).

And, of course, you still have a 3/4 BAB.

So, basically... Nightcrawler. With more class.

soulsabre345
2011-06-21, 12:07 AM
OK, i'll give this a shot.

A efficient ranged sniper/assassin that revolves around evading and outsmarting his opponent as he steadily whittles them down through any means necessary, using just enough force or power to take down his mark. Taking anywhere from a hour to a day to a week is fine to complete a job as long as at no point during that time would he run out of tools or resources. (taking a minute or two to reload or refresh is fine, taking any more than a hour to do so is not). Preferably no tool at his disposal should ever expire and should always be reusable, even if it may take time for it to recharge. As well , if possible this character should never need to stop to sleep or rest, and can keep harrying his target until they fall.

Draz74
2011-06-21, 12:27 AM
Most classy, sir, but I'm afraid that I don't see the readied actions, which is (in my mind) a criminally underused mechanic. Can we give our serene friend any kind of reason to prepare his actions in anticipation of the moves of others, in addition to simply reacting faster than the eye can see and the mind can think?
Well, it is a psionic build, so ... Hidden Talent (Synchronicity)? I know you said you didn't want that to be the only reason to ready actions, but ... it's pretty much the best way in the game to buff abuse readied actions.


Ahh, okay. But it doesn't count towards your initiator level, does it? Or only by half?
Only by half, yeah. But that's ok. A Tome of Battle character that ends up with Initiator Level 16 can still rock out pretty hard.


Hm. Can't that be fixed somehow? Something like Martial Study?
Nope. Martial Study lets you learn one maneuver (even from a discipline your class doesn't normally get), and makes a skill a class skill for you.

You'll take it at least a couple times for Tiger Claw maneuvers if you go the Crusader route, but it won't help your initiator level.


I was also thinking, since this build is Cha heavy and Dex-weak, is there a way to get TWF without having to qualify for the feat?
Hmmm ...

Two levels of Ranger. Not really cohesive with the rest of the build.
Get Agile Shield Fighter instead. Doesn't work unless one of your weapons is a shield bash, which probably doesn't look that much like a knife. :smallfrown:
Skip the Two-Weapon Fighting feat entirely. Don't actually use both of your weapons in the same turn except whenever you initiate the Wolf Fang Strike maneuver, which lets you move and attack once with each weapon regardless of whether you have the feat. Actually not a bad idea, especially if you're using the Crusader's recharge mechanic. One downside to this option is that you won't qualify for Bloodclaw Master, the TWF-focused PrC in Tome of Battle. And a two-level dip in that would be very nice for this character. (It doesn't lose you any initiator levels.)

That's all I've got. Charisma is pretty optional, though. Crusaders are pretty light on Charisma-based features, really, and the Charisma features of Cryokineticist aren't really the ones you care about.


And would it be worth sacrificing two levels of Abjurant Champion for two levels of paladin to get Divine Grace? I was considering Crusader instead, but I saw that the Cha bonus only applies to Will saves.

Abjurant Champion what now? :smallconfused: There's no arcane casting in this build.

If you're worried about saves, maybe go Warblade instead of Crusader, and take the Diamond Mind save-replacers. Makes it hard to get Immortal Fortitude, though.

I guess you could try for a Master of Nine build in your later levels. It's a feat-intensive but awesome option. What level are you hoping to play this character at? Or do you just care how cool it looks at Level 20?

Ajadea
2011-06-21, 12:43 AM
What kind of casting and fighting do you envision him doing? Do you see him buffing up his allies? Do you see him doing Crowd Control? Do you see him doing flashy blastomancy? Do you see him using illusions to confound and confuse his opponents?

Mostly extremely attention-grabbing blastomancy with a decent bit of self-buffing and ally-buffing mixed in. Something that is noticable enough to make every average soldier run screaming for the hills.



When you say 'spy through all the wardings a nigh-infinite number of level 7 clerics can put up', I think 'Joker Bard'.

Bards are a 3/4 BAB class with some magic, so that kind of fits the whole 'gish lite' thing you are going for in-house. First level should be Rogue, though, and make sure to take the racial substitution level to Take 10 on social skills. She can Bluff and Diplomance with the best of 'em. Take the racial feat that lets her 'ping' as whatever disguise she is at the time to Divinations, and you've got a natural spy who is almost impossible to be caught, right from level 1. Once she hits 3rd level spells, however, Glibness and Magic Aura (to hide the illusion aura) puts the final nail in the coffin. At that point, she can literally walk into a Zone of Truth and lie her arse off, and *NO ONE* would be able to call her on it. Hell, even if they pull her into an Anti-Magic Field, they STILL have to beat her insanely high Bluff check, since she can Take 10 on it.

Tack on moderate IC optimization (a good idea anyways, if Mr. Boss is focusing on leadership and tons of minions, makes 'em a hell of a lot nastier) and she's surprisingly lethal in combat as well.


Will do, thanks!

kardar233
2011-06-21, 01:22 AM
Wow Shneeky, that's awesome. I was expecting you to go on and make my day, and you went on and made my day. Without the whole, y'know, shooting in the head part.

So what would that actually measure up being?

Any alternatives to Binder there? Not sure that's going to be available.

What's even scarier? This might end up being one side of a gestalt. What do you think the other one would be? Unarmed Swordsage/Tashalatora PsyWar for bonus unarmed strike damage, or get some precision damage in there with a Swift Hunter/Ambusher build, maybe?

Midnight_v
2011-06-21, 03:43 AM
Drizzt Do'Urdan. I know that he already has an official build, but I need one that doesn't suck. I was going to build him myself, but my only idea was Dervish.

I'll give it a go. Gimme a few hours...

Rhaegar14
2011-06-21, 04:20 AM
Here's a fun one.

I want a spellcaster of some sort (psionicist will also work) that "pilots" one or more constructs in battle. Think Gundams and Knightmare Frames. Bonus points for "flair," so to speak.

Edit: I thought I'd put a little more on what I want to accomplish with this. Namely, I want to have another interesting option for caster melee. Thus, versatile constructs are somewhat key, and finding a way to get them in the dungeon corridor is also a bit important.

Zonugal
2011-06-21, 05:12 AM
Here's a fun one.

I want a spellcaster of some sort (psionicist will also work) that "pilots" one or more constructs in battle. Think Gundams and Knightmare Frames. Bonus points for "flair," so to speak.

Edit: I thought I'd put a little more on what I want to accomplish with this. Namely, I want to have another interesting option for caster melee. Thus, versatile constructs are somewhat key, and finding a way to get them in the dungeon corridor is also a bit important.

A psionic shaper using the Astral Construct power can create a 'mech' with an astral construct with enough open volume on the inside of it to 'pilot it.'

NullShadow
2011-06-21, 05:23 AM
I've got one thats been bugging me for a while now,

basically i want to make a prince of Persia type character(the sands of time Prince) Huge emphasis on speed and with a bit of drunken monk style thrown in to boot what do you think?

Edit: oh and unarmed specialist if possible

QuidEst
2011-06-21, 06:43 AM
But that would be magic, rather than mundane explosives.

I'm afraid D&D is designed for a world in which gunpowder is not widely available.
All right… well, as a bit of a contrivance to get around this (with some fluff applied to make it fit better), is there a good way to keep the rest the same and give him enough ranks in Use Magical Device to have a staff with an array of demolition spells (Explosive Runes, etc.), plus a few other items in a bag of holding? I have a contact for them that can get a hold of whatever items they need, albeit at a rather stiff fee.

Telonius
2011-06-21, 07:44 AM
Any takers on the Shifter private eye?


Here's a concept for an Eberron campaign that I never did quite get right.

Wildhunt Shifter, lives in Sharn, and works as a private eye (typical Sam Spade/film noir-ish guy). He's trying to adapt his Wildhunt heritage and personality to an urban environment. He's not a magic user himself, but certainly doesn't hesitate to use magic items to help in his investigations. Somewhat gruff personality (per film noir), but lots of contacts in the city. He's not psionic, and is a bit distrustful about people "messing with his brain." He's fairly lawful; always looks for evidence and turns over criminals to the legal authority. He's not above bluffing to get his way into a protected area. He knows how to spot a bluff, a forgery, and a troublemaker.

(My original build was Urban Ranger, but this degenerated pretty quickly into a mishmash of contradicting skills and feats coupled with fairly non-spectacular racial abilities...)

It's been quite a while since I originally tried building the guy, and I've been turning him over in my head since I made the post yesterday. There are a few things that keep occurring to me - maybe use Urban Ranger as a dip, rather than a focus; possibly Factotum; maybe some Bloodhound and/or Justiciar in there somewhere. Maybe even a level of Artificer to help him figure out the magical gizmos Eberron is famous for. Lots of options. But whenever I try to bring the whole thing into a build, it just kind of loses its coherence.

Doktor Per
2011-06-21, 09:34 AM
Not enough information. What do you mean by 'alchemist'? Everything you've said so far screams 'Urban Ranger'.

I'll clarify. I want him to be rather focused on using alchemical items, and things that would boost / enable him to do that more creatively or with more preparation. Traps, distractions and general utility. His primary stat would definitely be Intelligence, logic and "knowledge of the rules of the universe" are his primary weapons after all.

And as a continuation of avoiding direct confrontation would be any sort of "I'd rather not be the target of this." abilities. The pugilism thing is there mostly so there can be a "gentlemen's brawl," the notion that duking it out is somehow more civilized than stabbing each other. Of course, it's also much easier to get someone alive with a steel toed boot. The idea is that he doesn't carry weapons, but has a bandoleer of alchemical compounds and stuff to deploy in the field. Every pocket full. Stuff he makes himself.

I hope I'm more clear now, I'm sorry if I'm not.

Dragonsoul
2011-06-21, 09:48 AM
I'd like a knife thrower, one of those classic rogue types with a bandolier is knives across there chest- and the ability to use them for more than just inserting them in people, his combat ability is about throwing large numbers of knives, at all comers, I really don't care about damage or +AB just storms of pointy knives.

dextercorvia
2011-06-21, 10:02 AM
I'd like a knife thrower, one of those classic rogue types with a bandolier is knives across there chest- and the ability to use them for more than just inserting them in people, his combat ability is about throwing large numbers of knives, at all comers, I really don't care about damage or +AB just storms of pointy knives.

I'm thinking a (non-psionic) Thri-Kreen Archivist with permanent Girallon' Blessing, Knowledge Devotion and the Multi-weapon fighting line.

mootoall
2011-06-21, 10:10 AM
Ahh, okay. But it doesn't count towards your initiator level, does it? Or only by half?

Hm. Can't that be fixed somehow? Something like Martial Study?

I was also thinking, since this build is Cha heavy and Dex-weak, is there a way to get TWF without having to qualify for the feat? And would it be worth sacrificing two levels of Abjurant Champion for two levels of paladin to get Divine Grace? I was considering Crusader instead, but I saw that the Cha bonus only applies to Will saves.

Dunno if anyone's answered this, but Gloves of the Balanced Hand, while expensive, give you TWF or, if you already have it, ITWF.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-06-21, 11:09 AM
Not that expensive, IIRC 8K GP

Hazzardevil
2011-06-21, 11:39 AM
This seems like the sort of thread that needs to be encouraged.
I have my own request, I would like a charecter that can use meld into stone at-will, this would be done most easily with Urban Soul from Races of Destiny.
I would also like some good melee or ranged capacity, preferably ranged.
It doesn't need to be long ranged, in fact at most the range will be roughly 50 ft.
Race has to be human if you take the Urban Soul route.
And Tome of battle classes are a no, although feats are fine.

Draz74
2011-06-21, 12:00 PM
Any takers on the Shifter private eye?



It's been quite a while since I originally tried building the guy, and I've been turning him over in my head since I made the post yesterday. There are a few things that keep occurring to me - maybe use Urban Ranger as a dip, rather than a focus; possibly Factotum; maybe some Bloodhound and/or Justiciar in there somewhere. Maybe even a level of Artificer to help him figure out the magical gizmos Eberron is famous for. Lots of options. But whenever I try to bring the whole thing into a build, it just kind of loses its coherence.
I read your concept, and frankly thought "just straight Factotum." Maybe a one-level Urban Ranger dip; but then again, maybe just take the Urban Tracker feat.


Dunno if anyone's answered this, but Gloves of the Balanced Hand, while expensive, give you TWF or, if you already have it, ITWF.

Oh yeah, I was meaning to recommend those for this character ... but I forgot that they gave TWF, not just ITWF. :smallredface:

You may or may not feel comfortable using an item-granted feat to qualify for a PrC (Bloodclaw Master).

Eloel
2011-06-21, 12:03 PM
OK, i'll give this a shot.

A efficient ranged sniper/assassin that revolves around evading and outsmarting his opponent as he steadily whittles them down through any means necessary, using just enough force or power to take down his mark. Taking anywhere from a hour to a day to a week is fine to complete a job as long as at no point during that time would he run out of tools or resources. (taking a minute or two to reload or refresh is fine, taking any more than a hour to do so is not). Preferably no tool at his disposal should ever expire and should always be reusable, even if it may take time for it to recharge. As well , if possible this character should never need to stop to sleep or rest, and can keep harrying his target until they fall.

This sounds alot like Soulbow to me.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 12:16 PM
Mostly extremely attention-grabbing blastomancy with a decent bit of self-buffing and ally-buffing mixed in. Something that is noticable enough to make every average soldier run screaming for the hills.
So, we're look for flashy, dashing, and exceedingly noticable. He stands on the top of the hill in his 'here I am, shoot me now' shiny armor, raining death and destruction down on his opponents, while his minions swarm them from the sides, hmmm?

Well, I'd hate to simply offer a traditional Sorcadin, since that's the easiest way to get this to work.

I tried looking at Warmage, being Mr Flashy of the casters, but he really just didn't... fit. It's only a 1/2 BAB class, unfortunately, and the spell list leaves a lot to be desired. I do like how it has access to the entire spell list, though. I mean, he's got a lot of flash and dash, but not a Gish by any means, and the spell list is too... crippled. No buffing at all in there.

Beguiler has... potential. 3/4 BAB, so adequate for a 'gish', and has some buffing and TONS of flash, but no bang for your buck. If he had more 'boom' and less 'sneak', he'd have done well.

As distasteful as it is, Battle Sorcerer might do the trick. Wears light armor, with a feat you can make that Medium for Mithral Full Plate. But the spells known list is... even more crippled than Warmage. They get few enough spells known as it is, removing one at every spell level *REALLY* hurts. Particularly when a lot of the spells you want are going to be at the same spell level (3rd level has both Fireball and Lightning Bolt, which I assume he wants, plus Haste and Stinking Cloud and Dispel Magic and Explosive Runes, AND Sleet Storm, AND Haste and GMW). You'd need a LOT of knowstones/runestaves to make up for this.

Bards just don't have the blastomancy necessary to do the job

Warlock... has a lot of potential, actually. You want unlimited, phenomonal, cosmic blasting? Warlock has that in spades. Specifically, Hellfire Warlock.

And ya know what? You get a chance to utilize more than just the Hellfire blast too. However, to do that, you'll need to decide (since you are the GM) that Strongheart Vest does not shut down Hellfire, because otherwise he's gonna burn his Con too quickly.

You see, Hellfire Warlocks are awesome blasters. You pick up Eldritch Chain and Eldritch Cone, and you're talking about lots of flashy area-effect blastomancy. Hell, come up with Eldritch Ball (fireball-like burst with ref/half) and Eldritch Line (line effect like a lightning bolt, with ref/half) invocations for him, just so he has more options of mass-blasting. Since he's blowing Invocations on them, it's really sub-par for him, but he doesn't much care since it gives him so much more versatility.

And now we get to all his pretty toys. He likes wands. A lot. He doesn't need to roll to use 'em, since he can simply Take 10 on UMD. He can use 'em for things like Glitterdust (pathetically easy DC to avoid blindness since it's from a wand, but he can still outline invisible foes with it), Grease, and buffing. He can even use Hellfire Infusion to boost the effectiveness of his wands.

Give him the gauntlets in the MIC to let him change up the flavor he is blasting as well, those are always a hoot.

So, invocations known:

Least: Eldritch Spear (reach out and blast someone!), See The Unseen (see invis), and Entropic Warding (20% miss chance + pass without trace + no scent)

Lesser: Brimstone Blast, Eldritch Chain, Eldritch Ball, Eldritch Line (feat: extra invocation)

Greater: Eldritch Cone, Hindering Blast (Will/slowed for 1 round), Noxious Blast (Fort/nauseated 1 rd)

Sound good? Maybe blow a feat on Eldritch Glaive while you are at it. Nothing says 'badass' like a guy in mithral plate dual-wielding wands (bonus points if he calls them Hurt and Burn) that can form a 10' coherant blade of hellfire-infused energy to slice opponents in half with.

He even has 'self sufficient' because he can use wands/scrolls of cure x wounds.

Grendus
2011-06-21, 12:20 PM
You got the beguiler wrong. 1/2 BAB. I know, I was surprised at first too.

Edit: To me, this somehow says Psion, specifically Kinetecist. You can wear the flashy and shiny armor, because you have no ASF. Pick out some manifestations that have visual cues, and... well, let's face it, nothing says terror like a nine foot arc of raw fire lancing from your head and pinging between unfortunate victims on the battlefield (which you then have your psicrystal maintain) while you hurl glowing electric missiles into the crowd.

Body Adjustment and Body Purification can grant you the self sufficiency, and psions have some great buffs and debuffs (just from the name, Demoralize screams "power to make your enemies run"). Going straight Kinetecist or Anarchic Initiate, depending on if he's fighting for a cause or against it, and you have a guy who would make the rank in file soldiers flee leaving yellow trails in their armor.

Fax Celestis
2011-06-21, 12:21 PM
As distasteful as it is, Battle Sorcerer might do the trick. Wears light armor, with a feat you can make that Medium for Mithral Full Plate.

Something like Flavius Hilaris (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1894564&postcount=9) could work.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 12:24 PM
Something like Flavius Hilaris (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1894564&postcount=9) could work.

True, although a very limited selection of spells really hurts his ability to blast in any flavor of the rainbow. Also, Explosive Spell is probably flashier than Smiting Spell.

You got the beguiler wrong. 1/2 BAB. I know, I was surprised at first too.

Edit: To me, this somehow says Psion, specifically Kinetecist. You can wear the flashy and shiny armor, because you have no ASF. Pick out some manifestations that have visual cues, and... well, let's face it, nothing says terror like a nine foot arc of raw fire lancing from your head and pinging between unfortunate victims on the battlefield (which you then have your psicrystal maintain) while you hurl glowing electric missiles into the crowd.

Body Adjustment and Body Purification can grant you the self sufficiency, and psions have some great buffs and debuffs (just from the name, Demoralize screams "power to make your enemies run"). Going straight Kinetecist or Anarchic Initiate, depending on if he's fighting for a cause or against it, and you have a guy who would make the rank in file soldiers flee leaving yellow trails in their armor.

Hmmm... you have a point. No one can Nova like a Keneticist can. I guess I'm not used to thinking about Psions much.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 12:40 PM
Sorry, I just wanted to make sure Scralt, the charismatic demolitions expert, didn't slip through the cracks. I'm fine if you're busy, I'd just hate to wind up with only one of the duo optimized. XP Thanks again for doing this! I'd really cool to see.

Okay, I have a possible way of doing this.

It all started off with a guy who loved Explosive Runes. I mean *REALLY* loved it. And he wanted it to become more widely used. Then he came up with an idea of scribing a book *FULL* of explosive runes. Then casting Dispel Magic at it, deliberately flubbing the CL check to cause them all to explode.

The Warlock gets a dispel Magic he can toss around an unlimited number of times. Plus can use all the other wands and such to represent other such explosives. The trick is getting him access to Explosive Runes.

I don't suppose you'd mind him being Undead? Spellstitched comes to mind as being the most obvious way to do so.

Hazzardevil
2011-06-21, 12:48 PM
Shneeky, as much as I hate to correct you but the Stalwart Sorcerer is like Battle only. Rather than a crippeld casting altogether simply one less of your highest level and +2 hp per level.
And light armour casting with average BAB, did I forgot profiency with a martial weapon and weapon focus?

Etrivar
2011-06-21, 12:53 PM
Good Sir Sheenky,

Please craft Gandalf.

dextercorvia
2011-06-21, 12:53 PM
This seems like the sort of thread that needs to be encouraged.
I have my own request, I would like a charecter that can use meld into stone at-will, this would be done most easily with Urban Soul from Races of Destiny.
I would also like some good melee or ranged capacity, preferably ranged.
It doesn't need to be long ranged, in fact at most the range will be roughly 50 ft.
Race has to be human if you take the Urban Soul route.
And Tome of battle classes are a no, although feats are fine.

That looks like Azurin Bard3/Totemist2/HumanParagon2/UrbanSoul3 to me. Feats include Dragontouched, Draconic Heritage:Battle, Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity

You will want to bind the Manticore Belt to your Totem Chakra. You'll be able to make 4-5 attacks (30' range increment) each with +4d6 Sonic damage or so as a standard action. Other melds to consider include Blink Shirt and Dread Carapace. You'd benefit from Knowledge Devotion if you can fit it in there.

Hazzardevil
2011-06-21, 12:55 PM
That looks like Azurin Bard3/Totemist2/HumanParagon2/UrbanSoul3 to me. Feats include Dragontouched, Draconic Heritage:Battle, Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity

You will want to bind the Manticore Belt to your Totem Chakra. You'll be able to make 4-5 attacks (30' range increment) each with +4d6 Sonic damage or so as a standard action. Other melds to consider include Blink Shirt and Dread Carapace. You'd benefit from Knowledge Devotion if you can fit it in there.

Does Azurin Qualify for classes that say you need to be Human? I wasn't sure.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 12:57 PM
Shneeky, as much as I hate to correct you but the Stalwart Sorcerer is like Battle only. Rather than a crippeld casting altogether simply one less of your highest level and +2 hp per level.
And light armour casting with average BAB, did I forgot profiency with a martial weapon and weapon focus?

From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer):

pellcasting

A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).

I'm sorry, but battle sorcerer DOES reduce by one spell known per spell level (minimum 1). That's why it is so commonly paired with Stalwart, which only reduces the highest spell level known, because it rarely has more than one at that slot, so you might as well get free benefits half the time.

Having said that, if you see where I have made an error, please point it out to me. I do make mistakes, after all.

dextercorvia
2011-06-21, 01:00 PM
Does Azurin Qualify for classes that say you need to be Human? I wasn't sure.

If it doesn't, then you get an extra skill point every level instead of 1 point of essentia. I messed up and forgot how little essentia Totemists get. You'll have to swap out Dragontouched/Draconic Heritage for essentia granting feats.


@Schneeky, he isn't saying you made a mistake, he is saying use Stalwart instead of Battle. His punctuation is off.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 01:04 PM
Good Sir Sheenky,

Please craft Gandalf.

Umm... no. I'm trying to build mechanically viable characters here. A character needs more than Telekinesis and Daylight as SLA's to qualify.



@Schneeky, he isn't saying you made a mistake, he is saying use Stalwart instead of Battle. His punctuation is off.

Oh, I see...

No, Stalwart doesn't change your BAB, you still have a 1/2 rather than a 3/4 BAB, which makes it completely pointless for making a Gish

Hazzardevil
2011-06-21, 01:04 PM
From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer):


I'm sorry, but battle sorcerer DOES reduce by one spell known per spell level (minimum 1). That's why it is so commonly paired with Stalwart, which only reduces the highest spell level known, because it rarely has more than one at that slot, so you might as well get free benefits half the time.

Having said that, if you see where I have made an error, please point it out to me. I do make mistakes, after all.

I did use Bad Grammer sorry, but Stalwart is better, full stop.


Good Sir Sheenky,

Please craft Gandalf.

In one of the early issues of dragon they did an Article on how Gandalf was a 5th level wizard, that shouldn't be too hard.

NineThePuma
2011-06-21, 01:08 PM
From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer):


I'm sorry, but battle sorcerer DOES reduce by one spell known per spell level (minimum 1). That's why it is so commonly paired with Stalwart, which only reduces the highest spell level known, because it rarely has more than one at that slot, so you might as well get free benefits half the time.

Having said that, if you see where I have made an error, please point it out to me. I do make mistakes, after all.

It reduces spells per day. I'm not sure if it reduces spells known anywhere, ever. =\

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 01:11 PM
It reduces spells per day. I'm not sure if it reduces spells known anywhere, ever. =\

read the second paragraph I quoted in the post you just quoted. It reduces both spells per day and spells known.

And Stalwart doesn't give additional BAB, it only gives hit points and martial weapon proficency in exchange for one fewer spell known. At least Battle Sorcerer has a 3/4 BAB to show for his sacrifice.

You might try combining the two, since you're already hitting yourself in the head with the nerf-bat.

NineThePuma
2011-06-21, 01:13 PM
I want an Assassin's creed style parkour using assassin type. Emphasis on his mobility and such. In terms of combat, however, I'd like a mix of close range unarmed strikes and throwing weapons, favoring the former.

I can think of a couple ways to do it, but second opinions are wonderful things.

This got lost.


And you're right, I misread. Oops. ^^;

jhardin87
2011-06-21, 01:14 PM
how bout this? a chaotic good lvl 8 rogue/assassin tailored after ezio auditore from Assassins Creed2/brotherhood. if you're familliar with the games you should know what im talking about. i would especially like to work in the hidden blade weapon for help with sneak attacks. i want him able to hold up around the edges of combat, quickly dispatching smaller mobs where he can and able to dart off to safety if things get to hairy. anything to maximize his ability to get off sneak attacks would be good. also, if your familliar with the ezio character you'll know hes a bit of a pimp so good bluff/diplomacy/etc skills would be nice. the dm is allowing a mixture of 3.5 and pathfinder rules. basically whatever works best out of the 2. he'll be the secondary trapfinder so thats not as important as combat abilities. base stat rolls are 18,18,16,14,14,15. let me know what you think.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 01:16 PM
I want an Assassin's creed style parkour using assassin type. Emphasis on his mobility and such. In terms of combat, however, I'd like a mix of close range unarmed strikes and throwing weapons, favoring the former.

I can think of a couple ways to do it, but second opinions are wonderful things.

Hmmm...

I never played the game, so I hope I don't miss anything.

IIRC, though, he's good at blending into crowds, disguise, shanking, tossing, and getting from point A to point B rapidly through crowded areas.

Honestly? Sounds like a Rogue/Swordsage to me. Go heavy into the Shadow Hand discipline. Maybe Master Thrower for Sneaky Shot.

If you go Changeling, you can pick up an ACF at 1st level Rogue to be able to Take 10 on a bunch of social skills, you can change your appearance to whatever you want to look like, pick up a racial feat so that even Divination effects are fooled, and you're good to go.

NineThePuma
2011-06-21, 01:17 PM
Nifty. I think I will. =3

Draz74
2011-06-21, 01:20 PM
Please craft Gandalf.

Aasimar Factotum with a backstory about how he used to be a Planetar before he accepted the long-term quest to become semi-mortal and help the mortals throw down the Dark Lord.

Use LA Buyoff. Get a Runestaff of Power (and convince your DM that Factotums can use Runestaves) and a homebrewed Lesser Ring of Elemental Command (fire) and a +1 Orc-Bane Longsword.

Done.

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 01:32 PM
I need a "Jack of All Trades" Build using 2 PrCs (DM's Rules...). This character needs to be Eberron-Themed, and thus far is Factotum 5/Chameleon 10. I just need 5 levels of "Jack of All Trades"-theme

Urpriest
2011-06-21, 01:33 PM
Shapeshifter of the mix'n'match in combat variety, growing different weapons and/or other bodyparts from round to round to adapt to different situations. Must not use NI cheese (so Warshaper can't grant multiple weapons).

veven
2011-06-21, 01:34 PM
Oh yea, Abjurant Champion means you also net yourself bonus on both Mage Armor and Shield spells, AND you can toss them up as a swift action. Make sure to get yourself a Ring of Wizardry I to double your 1st level spells, you'll be using a LOT of them. Maybe some Pearls of Power as well, since you'll be reusing the same spells over and over.

Does this build work for you?

I know this build is a few pages back but it doesn't look like anyone pointed out that Abjurant Champion does nothing for Mage Armor since it's from the conjuration school.

Also, as far as Snowflake Wardance goes, it works with two weapon fighting. The requirement is that you use it with 1 handed slashing weapons, it says nothing about not being able to do it with both hands.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 01:35 PM
I need a "Jack of All Trades" Build using 2 PrCs (DM's Rules...). This character needs to be Eberron-Themed, and thus far is Factotum 5/Chameleon 10. I just need 5 levels of "Jack of All Trades"-theme

Technically a violation of Rule 7 in the OP, but I'll go ahead and answer it this time.

What's wrong with more Factorum? You want at least Factorum 8 for bonus actions anyways.


I know this build is a few pages back but it doesn't look like anyone pointed out that Abjurant Champion does nothing for Mage Armor since it's from the conjuration school.

Technically a point, but since it is explicitly mentioned in the wording of the class ability, most GM's allow it. It's something you may wish to talk to your GM about.

veven
2011-06-21, 01:39 PM
i would especially like to work in the hidden blade weapon for help with sneak attacks.

The gnomish quick razor from Races of Stone is pretty much this. It doesn't do much for sneak attack sadly but if you are able to throw in some factotum levels and max out the Iajutsu focus skill you can still throw fist-fulls of d6's with a hidden weapon.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 01:41 PM
The gnomish quick razor from Races of Stone is pretty much this. It doesn't do much for sneak attack sadly but if you are able to throw in some factotum levels and max out the Iajutsu focus skill you can still throw fist-fulls of d6's with a hidden weapon.

If you are Iaijutsu striking, then you are also sneak attacking, since you need to be flat-footed to be the target of an Iaijutsu strike.

jhardin87
2011-06-21, 01:42 PM
This is an excellent idea. Perhaps you can help me realise a concept that's been plaguing me for a while.

Dual wielder of daggers or kukris (or some other bladed light weapon... except punching daggers and claws. More like a knife.). Some form of connection to ice (ice, snow or cold effects). Simply "it's from Frostburn" won't really do for me, since the point is that he can create ice somehow. Melee combatant, more of a mighty glacier (slow and powerful) than a fragile speedster. More defensive than offensive. High amount of resistances and immunities (undeath is a strong plus, but not required). Magic is encouraged, but if it interferes with the build (since keeping up those spellcasting levels can be a chore), it can be replaced. Some ability to ward/protect/deflect/abjure would be extremely nice as well.

Thanks in advance.

i have the perfect thing for you. frostrager prestige for barbarian. when you rage you coat your body in ice giving you a natural armor ac boost and increased unarmed damage due to literal blades of ice growing from your fists. as you progress ac and damage increases, you gain a nasty rend attack and cold damage heals you. plus you cant bleed out because of your blood will freeze immediately stabalizing you. best of all its open source:)

sonofzeal
2011-06-21, 01:42 PM
Okay, here's a challenge...

Killua, from Hunter x Hunter

http://images.wikia.com/hunterxhunter/images/2/25/Yoyo.jpg

- very fast, extremely stealthy when he wants to be, freakishly strong.
- able to rip a man's heart straight out of his chest as no more than a standard action
- immune (or highly resistant) to electrical damage
- able to generate electrical fields in his hands that can do reasonable amounts of damage
- uses a pair of yoyos that hit like a sack of bricks and can transmit his electrical attacks along their wire.

OPTIONAL: penalty on saves against Fear.

Quirp
2011-06-21, 01:44 PM
I need a "Jack of All Trades" Build using 2 PrCs (DM's Rules...). This character needs to be Eberron-Themed, and thus far is Factotum 5/Chameleon 10. I just need 5 levels of "Jack of All Trades"-theme

How about Fortune´s Friend from Complete Scoundrel? Nothind says Jack of all Trades like succeeding at any check by dumb luck.

veven
2011-06-21, 01:44 PM
If you are Iaijutsu striking, then you are also sneak attacking, since you need to be flat-footed to be the target of an Iaijutsu strike.

Right. I'm AFB at the moment and have never actually played an Iaijutsu character, thanks for the clarification.

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 01:45 PM
Technically a violation of Rule 7 in the OP, but I'll go ahead and answer it this time.

What's wrong with more Factorum? You want at least Factorum 8 for bonus actions anyways.

Sorry. DM said everyone must use 2 PrCs

jhardin87
2011-06-21, 01:48 PM
The gnomish quick razor from Races of Stone is pretty much this. It doesn't do much for sneak attack sadly but if you are able to throw in some factotum levels and max out the Iajutsu focus skill you can still throw fist-fulls of d6's with a hidden weapon.

is this all in the races of stone sourcebook? im not familliar with factotum levels or iajutsu focus.

NineThePuma
2011-06-21, 01:49 PM
Factotum is from Dungeonscape, while Iaijutsu Focus is from Oriental Adventures.

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 01:50 PM
How about Fortune´s Friend from Complete Scoundrel? Nothind says Jack of all Trades like succeeding at any check by dumb luck.

That's more like what I might've aimed for.

Ajadea
2011-06-21, 01:54 PM
So, we're look for flashy, dashing, and exceedingly noticable. He stands on the top of the hill in his 'here I am, shoot me now' shiny armor, raining death and destruction down on his opponents, while his minions swarm them from the sides, hmmm?

-snip-

Warlock... has a lot of potential, actually. You want unlimited, phenomonal, cosmic blasting? Warlock has that in spades. Specifically, Hellfire Warlock.


I never would have thought of warlock for him! Thanks again, Shneekey. I'm off to build some antagonists now.

QuidEst
2011-06-21, 01:56 PM
Okay, I have a possible way of doing this.

It all started off with a guy who loved Explosive Runes. I mean *REALLY* loved it. And he wanted it to become more widely used. Then he came up with an idea of scribing a book *FULL* of explosive runes. Then casting Dispel Magic at it, deliberately flubbing the CL check to cause them all to explode.

The Warlock gets a dispel Magic he can toss around an unlimited number of times. Plus can use all the other wands and such to represent other such explosives. The trick is getting him access to Explosive Runes.

I don't suppose you'd mind him being Undead? Spellstitched comes to mind as being the most obvious way to do so.

Well, from what I read, Spellstitched only allows Conjuration, Evocation, or Necromancy spells, while Explosive Runes is Abjuration. It's a nice thought… It doesn't look like there's a wand for it, either. =/ He might have to be rogue/fighter (or something like that) with some sort of homebrew thrown in. Or given somewhat unfair access to consumeable items as an NPC villain…

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 01:56 PM
Okay, here's a challenge...

Killua, from Hunter x Hunter

http://images.wikia.com/hunterxhunter/images/2/25/Yoyo.jpg

- very fast, extremely stealthy when he wants to be, freakishly strong.
- able to rip a man's heart straight out of his chest as no more than a standard action
- immune (or highly resistant) to electrical damage
- able to generate electrical fields in his hands that can do reasonable amounts of damage
- uses a pair of yoyos that hit like a sack of bricks and can transmit his electrical attacks along their wire.

/sigh

Oh well, at least we got to page 5 before the anime references came out. I suppose I should be grateful.

Honestly, never seen the anime, never even heard of it before. But I'll see what I can do.

Ripping out a man's heart is actually pretty damn easy, if you are talking about a Commoner 1. He's only got like 4 hit points, after all. Doing 14 is auto-dead.

Fast, stealthy, and freakishly strong sounds like Swordsage to me. Desert Wind, Shadow Hand (that can also do move-action and swift-action teleports), and Stone Dragon (breaking walls et al). Unarmed variant, and he's easily able to rip out someone's heart.

There are no weapons in D&&D 3.5 that are equivelant to yo-yo's. I suppose, if you want to use the stats for a Whip, you could.

The lightning is a bit harder to do. Maybe Warlock, if there was an Invocation that gave you electricity flavor. Then you could use Hideous Blow to channel your EB through your weapon. Energy Resistance is also inherent in the class.

Gauntlets of Eldritch Energy can let you do it, but only 3/day, which is not what we want to do. I suppose you can homebrew an Invocation for lightning flavor (probably a Lesser, to go along with Hellrime and Brimstone), or you can just say that 'it looks like lightning, but it's really just a standard eldritch blast'.

It's up to you to mix them around to fit the character, depending on how powerful you want the lightning to be.

Zonugal
2011-06-21, 02:04 PM
All right… well, as a bit of a contrivance to get around this (with some fluff applied to make it fit better), is there a good way to keep the rest the same and give him enough ranks in Use Magical Device to have a staff with an array of demolition spells (Explosive Runes, etc.), plus a few other items in a bag of holding? I have a contact for them that can get a hold of whatever items they need, albeit at a rather stiff fee.

You should look into the Combat Trapsmith from Complete Scoundrel. By 4th level in the prestige class you can 'MacGyver' together a rudimentary bomb from any ingredients in the surrounding area.

Quirp
2011-06-21, 02:05 PM
If you could put Binder 3/KotSS 5 in there you could get lightning from focalor and electricity (and cold) immunity from acererak. Swordsage 12/Binder 3/KotSS 5 seems like a viable build.

sonofzeal
2011-06-21, 02:06 PM
/sigh

Oh well, at least we got to page 5 before the anime references came out. I suppose I should be grateful.

Honestly, never seen the anime, never even heard of it before. But I'll see what I can do.

Ripping out a man's heart is actually pretty damn easy, if you are talking about a Commoner 1. He's only got like 4 hit points, after all. Doing 14 is auto-dead.

Fast, stealthy, and freakishly strong sounds like Swordsage to me. Desert Wind, Shadow Hand (that can also do move-action and swift-action teleports), and Stone Dragon (breaking walls et al). Unarmed variant, and he's easily able to rip out someone's heart.

There are no weapons in D&&D 3.5 that are equivelant to yo-yo's. I suppose, if you want to use the stats for a Whip, you could.

The lightning is a bit harder to do. Maybe Warlock, if there was an Invocation that gave you electricity flavor. Then you could use Hideous Blow to channel your EB through your weapon. Energy Resistance is also inherent in the class.

Gauntlets of Eldritch Energy can let you do it, but only 3/day, which is not what we want to do. I suppose you can homebrew an Invocation for lightning flavor (probably a Lesser, to go along with Hellrime and Brimstone), or you can just say that 'it looks like lightning, but it's really just a standard eldritch blast'.

It's up to you to mix them around to fit the character, depending on how powerful you want the lightning to be.
Thanks for the quick reply. And apologies about the anime-ness, but Killua was actually something I really struggled to represent myself once, so I figured it made a good example for the challenge.

Whips won't work very well for the yoyos though. See the below image for why:
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e254/hitokiri7303/178-12.jpg

Nevermind the around-the-tree aspect, but that's clearly Bludgeoning and Lethal. I'm honestly surprised yoyos aren't anywhere in D&D, given that they're actual historical weapons and just about everything else I can name has been included in some sourcebook or other.

And even if we go with Whips, I don't know a way to make them effective enough to be worth using. The whole "deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher" is kiiiind of a dealbreaker for me.

Hmmm... but Desert Wind altered to Electricity would actually work really well for that side of things. Good thought!

Fax Celestis
2011-06-21, 02:19 PM
Maybe an incarnate with Lightning Gauntlets and Thunderstep Greaves?

QuidEst
2011-06-21, 02:19 PM
You should look into the Combat Trapsmith from Complete Scoundrel. By 4th level in the prestige class you can 'MacGyver' together a rudimentary bomb from any ingredients in the surrounding area.

Thanks! That's the sort of thing I was looking for. No structural damage, but that's generally avoided, I suppose. That looks like it would be rogue/combat trapsmith/something thrown in for good hand-to-hand. Any way to make high CHA do something? He'll probably hurt from low INT, but that's probably to be expected. I suppose Warlock works, since it bumps attack, but the HD aren't any better.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 02:25 PM
If you could put Binder 3/KotSS 5 in there you could get lightning from focalor and electricity (and cold) immunity from acererak. Swordsage 12/Binder 3/KotSS 5 seems like a viable build.

Focalor only calls down weak lightning strikes, it doesn't augment or change the flavor of your attacks. Immunity from Acererak works, though.
Maybe an incarnate with Lightning Gauntlets and Thunderstep Greaves?

Hmmm... possibly. Touch attacks, anyways. But even if you bind Lightning Gauntlets to your hands, it only augments one attack a round.

Thunderstep Greaves just give you some minor sonic damage when you charge, it doesn't seem too relevant here.

Eloel
2011-06-21, 02:29 PM
Okay, here's a challenge...

Killua, from Hunter x Hunter

http://images.wikia.com/hunterxhunter/images/2/25/Yoyo.jpg

- very fast, extremely stealthy when he wants to be, freakishly strong.
- able to rip a man's heart straight out of his chest as no more than a standard action
- immune (or highly resistant) to electrical damage
- able to generate electrical fields in his hands that can do reasonable amounts of damage
- uses a pair of yoyos that hit like a sack of bricks and can transmit his electrical attacks along their wire.

OPTIONAL: penalty on saves against Fear.
Just a suggestion here:
Electrokineticist. On top of a PsyWarrior or Swordsage chassis. I'm not going to do the whole build, but it should work with little fiddling.

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 02:29 PM
I have an interesting Proof of Concept idea based on an earlier request: a Rock Band

Using leadership, can you build the most Head-Banging, Hardcore, Blow-the-Roof-Off-the-House band that D&D has ever seen who act as an actual Band using the following Setup:

Lead Singer: He's the Leader. He sings and acts as the group face. Preferably the "Most Powerful" of the Bards. More than likely a Human

Lead Guitar/Bass Guitar: Dvati Twins who add the power chords and deadly riffs to the band. Able to make women love them and men want to be them

Drummer: Undead (of some sort). He's the "Wild One" of the band, more akin to a cross between 80's Hair Metal and Death Metal

Keyboard: Gloura who blends her gorgeous looks with her ability to cover 98% of all instruments

Back-Up Singer: He's the Hippie of the Group. He covers the higher notes of the songs and blends his culture with the more metal-themed music of this band

Good Luck, as ROB would say

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 02:30 PM
Thanks! That's the sort of thing I was looking for. No structural damage, but that's generally avoided, I suppose. That looks like it would be rogue/combat trapsmith/something thrown in for good hand-to-hand. Any way to make high CHA do something? He'll probably hurt from low INT, but that's probably to be expected. I suppose Warlock works, since it bumps attack, but the HD aren't any better.

Unarmed Swordsage would blend nicely here. Unarmed damage, bonuses to sneak attack (Assassin's Stance), some Desert Wind for flashy fire effects, and Stone Dragon to break walls and stuff.

QuidEst
2011-06-21, 02:44 PM
Unarmed Swordsage would blend nicely here. Unarmed damage, bonuses to sneak attack (Assassin's Stance), some Desert Wind for flashy fire effects, and Stone Dragon to break walls and stuff.

Thanks! I'm sure Twitchy will be able to work with any differences. X) By the way, I came across your Joker Bard before you made this, and rather enjoyed reading it. Stick it to the Batman Wizard!

mootoall
2011-06-21, 02:46 PM
I figure this thread's going to be overloaded with requests, so I hope you don't mind if I help out Shneeky!


I need a "Jack of All Trades" Build using 2 PrCs (DM's Rules...). This character needs to be Eberron-Themed, and thus far is Factotum 5/Chameleon 10. I just need 5 levels of "Jack of All Trades"-theme

You know what always seemed very Jack of All Trades-y? Bard. Y'know what was converted to a PrC in UA? Bard. Bam, second prestige class for some Jack of All Trades goodness.

mootoall
2011-06-21, 02:48 PM
Okay, here's a challenge...

Killua, from Hunter x Hunter

-snip-

- very fast, extremely stealthy when he wants to be, freakishly strong.
- able to rip a man's heart straight out of his chest as no more than a standard action
- immune (or highly resistant) to electrical damage
- able to generate electrical fields in his hands that can do reasonable amounts of damage
- uses a pair of yoyos that hit like a sack of bricks and can transmit his electrical attacks along their wire.

OPTIONAL: penalty on saves against Fear.

Dip a level of Rogue in addition to other peoples' suggestions, qualifying you for Craven if you want that penalty on saves against fear, as well as a bit of extra damage on your yo-yo (Whip Dagger refluff?) sneak attacks!

sonofzeal
2011-06-21, 02:51 PM
Dip a level of Rogue in addition to other peoples' suggestions, qualifying you for Craven if you want that penalty on saves against fear, as well as a bit of extra damage on your yo-yo (Whip Dagger refluff?) sneak attacks!
Hmmm.... Whip Dagger... where are those?

Shadowknight12
2011-06-21, 02:54 PM
Only by half, yeah. But that's ok. A Tome of Battle character that ends up with Initiator Level 16 can still rock out pretty hard.

Oh, I see.


Nope. Martial Study lets you learn one maneuver (even from a discipline your class doesn't normally get), and makes a skill a class skill for you.

You'll take it at least a couple times for Tiger Claw maneuvers if you go the Crusader route, but it won't help your initiator level.

Huh. Hrm. Is there a way to go warblade/cryokineticist while focusing on Intelligence instead of Charisma? Or does Cryokineticist benefit more from a high Cha?


Hmmm ...

Two levels of Ranger. Not really cohesive with the rest of the build.
Get Agile Shield Fighter instead. Doesn't work unless one of your weapons is a shield bash, which probably doesn't look that much like a knife. :smallfrown:
Skip the Two-Weapon Fighting feat entirely. Don't actually use both of your weapons in the same turn except whenever you initiate the Wolf Fang Strike maneuver, which lets you move and attack once with each weapon regardless of whether you have the feat. Actually not a bad idea, especially if you're using the Crusader's recharge mechanic. One downside to this option is that you won't qualify for Bloodclaw Master, the TWF-focused PrC in Tome of Battle. And a two-level dip in that would be very nice for this character. (It doesn't lose you any initiator levels.)

That's all I've got. Charisma is pretty optional, though. Crusaders are pretty light on Charisma-based features, really, and the Charisma features of Cryokineticist aren't really the ones you care about.

But isn't it a rule that fighter, ranger, paladin, monk and a couple others give full initiator levels instead of half? That could make the ranger dip worthwhile.

Hrm. No. Shields are nice, I suppose, but I'm just a stickler for symmetry.

Huh. Well. Hum. That could work, actually. Especially if I combine manoeuvres with the cryokineticist abilities, I wouldn't need to rely so heavily on full attacks.


Abjurant Champion what now? :smallconfused: There's no arcane casting in this build.

If you're worried about saves, maybe go Warblade instead of Crusader, and take the Diamond Mind save-replacers. Makes it hard to get Immortal Fortitude, though.

I guess you could try for a Master of Nine build in your later levels. It's a feat-intensive but awesome option. What level are you hoping to play this character at? Or do you just care how cool it looks at Level 20?

Sorry, I thought your comment was about adding Cryokineticist to the build Shneeky had suggested. I see what you mean now, something like Crusader 10/Cryokinecist 10.

Warblade sounds more and more appealing, to be honest.

Master of the Nine... isn't it a waste if you don't plan on using manoeuvres from all nine disciplines? Or is it accepted that you only use it to get a couple of specific manoeuvres?

To be honest, I've no idea when I'll get a chance of using it. I'd like a level 20 build, of course, because that's cool, but I'd also like the ability to jump into a game with him at any level.


Dunno if anyone's answered this, but Gloves of the Balanced Hand, while expensive, give you TWF or, if you already have it, ITWF.

That definitely solves my TWF problems. Thanks!


i have the perfect thing for you. frostrager prestige for barbarian. when you rage you coat your body in ice giving you a natural armor ac boost and increased unarmed damage due to literal blades of ice growing from your fists. as you progress ac and damage increases, you gain a nasty rend attack and cold damage heals you. plus you cant bleed out because of your blood will freeze immediately stabalizing you. best of all its open source:)

You know, I have read most of Frostburn more times than I can count, but I never looked twice at the Frostrager. I don't even know what it does! I guess that goes to show you how nasty preconceptions can be. Thanks for the suggestion, that does sound like a great idea. Besides, I can always refluff the "rage" as "entering a state of cold, homicidal intent" or "entering a state of righteous zeal."

mootoall
2011-06-21, 02:54 PM
Hmmm.... Whip Dagger... where are those?

Whip with a dagger on the end :smalltongue: I forget what sourcebook they're from, but I believe it might be A&EG. It's basically a whip that does lethal damage.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 02:54 PM
I have an interesting Proof of Concept idea based on an earlier request: a Rock Band

Using leadership, can you build the most Head-Banging, Hardcore, Blow-the-Roof-Off-the-House band that D&D has ever seen who act as an actual Band using the following Setup:

Lead Singer: He's the Leader. He sings and acts as the group face. Preferably the "Most Powerful" of the Bards. More than likely a Human

Lead Guitar/Bass Guitar: Dvati Twins who add the power chords and deadly riffs to the band. Able to make women love them and men want to be them

Drummer: Undead (of some sort). He's the "Wild One" of the band, more akin to a cross between 80's Hair Metal and Death Metal

Keyboard: Gloura who blends her gorgeous looks with her ability to cover 98% of all instruments

Back-Up Singer: He's the Hippie of the Group. He covers the higher notes of the songs and blends his culture with the more metal-themed music of this band

Good Luck, as ROB would say

Lead Singer: Bard4/Warblade6/War Chanter10. DFI optimization. Song of Legion so that everyone in the 'band' has a +19 BAB, regardless of their actual BAB.

Lead Guitar/Base Guitar: Bard/Mindbender/Exemplar. With the telepathy from Mindbender, and Mindsight, they're both the radar of the party and the communication center, passing along messages. They also use Power Attack/Shock Trooper, using their axes as... well... axes.

Drummer: Barbarian1 (pounce and whirling rage)/Bard/Warblade (mostly into Tiger Claw). He's all about LOTS of attacks with his twin light maces. Lightning Mace is a natural feat for him. He can use them on things other than drums as well. Being undead helps him ignore the fatigue after raging.

Keyboard: Bard/Chameleon2/Exemplar1/Seeker of the Song. Versitile Performer, now she can use every instrument. Yes, even those. Chameleon for the floating feat and for general all-around versitility. Seeker of the Song is an odd duck of a PrC, but a hell of a lot of fun. Exemplar dip is to Take 10 on Perform checks.

Back-Up Singer: Bard/Rogue/Druid/Fochlucan Lyricist. Like, make love, not war, man. Also the healer of the party with druid spellcasting. Definitely your flower child.

Urpriest
2011-06-21, 03:03 PM
Lead Guitar/Base Guitar: Bard/Mindbender/Exemplar. With the telepathy from Mindbender, and Mindsight, they're both the radar of the party and the communication center, passing along messages. They also use Power Attack/Shock Trooper, using their axes as... well... axes.

Keyboard: Bard/Chameleon2/Exemplar1/Seeker of the Song. Versitile Performer, now she can use every instrument. Yes, even those. Chameleon for the floating feat and for general all-around versitility. Seeker of the Song is an odd duck of a PrC, but a hell of a lot of fun. Exemplar dip is to Take 10 on Perform checks.


How are you getting a Gloura chameleon?

Also, on the Dvati, you might try Psionics rather than magic, both because it synergizes better with Dvati RAW since they can both manifest in one turn (probably not RAI) and because it can actually achieve the "makes men want to be them" thing with Mind Seed.

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 03:08 PM
Lead Singer: Bard4/Warblade6/War Chanter10. DFI optimization. Song of Legion so that everyone in the 'band' has a +19 BAB, regardless of their actual BAB.

Def. Leader. Very Martial and 10 levels of a class I never see enough. Well Done


Lead Guitar/Base Guitar: Bard/Mindbender/Exemplar. With the telepathy from Mindbender, and Mindsight, they're both the radar of the party and the communication center, passing along messages. They also use Power Attack/Shock Trooper, using their axes as... well... axes.


Whut? Using Guitars as weapons? That's a new one for me. Wonder what the damage would be... Cool Overall.


Drummer: Barbarian1 (pounce and whirling rage)/Bard/Warblade (mostly into Tiger Claw). He's all about LOTS of attacks with his twin light maces. Lightning Mace is a natural feat for him. He can use them on things other than drums as well. Being undead helps him ignore the fatigue after raging.

What type of Low CR/Low LA undead is "Optimal" for this? Super Sweet for a drummer overall


Keyboard: Bard/Chameleon2/Exemplar1Seeker of the Song. Versitile Performer, now she can use every instrument. Yes, even those. Chameleon for the floating feat and for general all-around versitility. Seeker of the Song is an odd duck of a PrC, but a hell of a lot of fun. Exemplar dip is to Take 10 on Perform checks.

Cool. So you opted for another Human instead of a Gloura. Classic Shneekey.


Back-Up Singer: Bard/Rogue/Druid/Fochlucan Lyricist. Like, make love, not war, man. Also the healer of the party with druid spellcasting. Definitely your flower child.

Super Awesome. Peace bro, peace...


Now, three questions from this:

1. What are all of the feats used for each character? I mean, you dabble-talked into each one, but I'm missing a lot of what makes them who they are

2. Exact level Numbers. I'm kinda new with Bard (specifically) and need some info on what number of levels "Optimally" work

3. Acting all together in "one action." IE: How can they all play their music at the same time? Yes, they are all TECHNICALLY 5 characters, but they are a band, and thus when the leader says, "Let's Rock," they all start playing music together.


And a rules question: Do multiple people using Bardic Music combine into a single song, thus creating an "Uber Bardic Music" effect?

jhardin87
2011-06-21, 03:09 PM
Unarmed Swordsage would blend nicely here. Unarmed damage, bonuses to sneak attack (Assassin's Stance), some Desert Wind for flashy fire effects, and Stone Dragon to break walls and stuff.

what sourcebook is swordsage from?

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 03:10 PM
what sourcebook is swordsage from?

Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords, or ToB:Bo9S for short, Pgs. 15-19

Eloel
2011-06-21, 03:12 PM
Whut? Using Guitars as weapons? That's a new one for me. Wonder what the damage would be... Cool Overall.


Something like this (http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/394748/5858745/0/1210573095/Electric_Guitar_AXE.jpg)?

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 03:15 PM
Something like this (http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/394748/5858745/0/1210573095/Electric_Guitar_AXE.jpg)?

That is the single-most BA Guitar ever. For that, you deserve a cookie

McClintock
2011-06-21, 03:15 PM
I just recently watched "The Professional". Leon is the ultimate neutral good/ neutral thief. how would you build him at say level 15. MUSTS INCLUDE: ULTRA Sneaky, quick kills, possibly a solo battle expert, naive (child-like sense of humor), has a conscience.. did I miss anything?

mootoall
2011-06-21, 03:16 PM
@Tokuhara: Readied actions work here. Entire band starts playing when the leader says "Let's Rock." Bardic Music is a standard action, so a bit of an intro before the lead singer comes in with the screamo battle music. Unfortunately the music doesn't stack, but SotS, Warchanter, Virtuoso and Bard all have different songs other than Inspire Courage. Or DFI into several different elements :smallcool:

sonofzeal
2011-06-21, 03:17 PM
Something like this (http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/394748/5858745/0/1210573095/Electric_Guitar_AXE.jpg)?
Or this (http://ninjarealmmedia.webs.com/photos/NINJA%20PICTURES/guitar%20hero.jpg).

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 03:22 PM
@Tokuhara: Readied actions work here. Entire band starts playing when the leader says "Let's Rock." Bardic Music is a standard action, so a bit of an intro before the lead singer comes in with the screamo battle music. Unfortunately the music doesn't stack, but SotS, Warchanter, Virtuoso and Bard all have different songs other than Inspire Courage. Or DFI into several different elements :smallcool:

So, the entire band (minus the leader) readies to use their respective Bardic Music abilities (Inspire Courage, whatnot) when they get the verbal cue. Then, after some smack-talk-ery, they all play, creating a multitude of effects which collaberate into a single nasty song able to be the "Mary Sue of Bardic Music?"

Amphetryon
2011-06-21, 03:25 PM
Or this (http://ninjarealmmedia.webs.com/photos/NINJA%20PICTURES/guitar%20hero.jpg).

I pictured this (http://home.iag.net/~greth/elkabong.jpg).

Fax Celestis
2011-06-21, 03:26 PM
And a rules question: Do multiple people using Bardic Music combine into a single song, thus creating an "Uber Bardic Music" effect?

Not in core, but I made a bard PrC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9792850&postcount=23) that does something like that.

Andmcmuffin2
2011-06-21, 03:26 PM
Alright, trying to make four characters with a similar theme. Psuedo-BBEG's, so if there's underhanded tricks to pull, go for it. These are the top cultists to the four Chaos gods from Warhammer, Khorne (http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Khorne), Nurgle (http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nurgle), Tzeentch (http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tzeentch), and Slaanesh (http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Slaanesh). I don't really want to go straight barbarian/wizard/sorceror on them, I don't have a clue what to do for Nurgle's champion, and the only thing I am sure of is that I'll be renaming and tossing in a couple of the devil-touched feats from Fiendish Codex II.


As for the ongoing conversation, there's a homebrew Disciple of Metal (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19523298/The_Disciple_of_Metal_PrC_Bard) bard PrC that if you can get your DM to go for it, your bard just took a level in badass.

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 03:29 PM
I pictured this (http://home.iag.net/~greth/elkabong.jpg).

El Kabong? Maybe more like this (http://rlv.zcache.com/guitar_smash_poster-p228440507230714003t5wm_400.jpg)

mootoall
2011-06-21, 03:29 PM
Pretty much. Using the stats from the previous bard build, it's +7d6 of fire, cold, acid, electricity, and (if you can get Pyroclastic draconic heritage) sonic damage. Harmonizing enhancements on all of your instruments, so you can, every turn, start a new song, building up into a Bohemian Rhapsody of morale effects.

Grendus
2011-06-21, 03:34 PM
I just recently watched "The Professional". Leon is the ultimate neutral good/ neutral thief. how would you build him at say level 15. MUSTS INCLUDE: ULTRA Sneaky, quick kills, possibly a solo battle expert, naive (child-like sense of humor), has a conscience.. did I miss anything?

Sounds... like a rogue, single classed. Skill points out the wassou with hide and move silently as class skills, sneak attacks make for quick kills, with good bluff for feint you could handle battles solo against most opponents, and no alignment restrictions. I've never seen the movie though, I don't know if there are other qualifiers that Rogue misses. Heck, I can't even find the movie in IMDB... just a french movie and two TV series.

McClintock
2011-06-21, 03:38 PM
Sounds... like a rogue, single classed. Skill points out the wassou with hide and move silently as class skills, sneak attacks make for quick kills, with good bluff for feint you could handle battles solo against most opponents, and no alignment restrictions. I've never seen the movie though, I don't know if there are other qualifiers that Rogue misses.

I guess that works, but it seems too easy. Kind of like "Anybody" could do that. Leon strikes me as more special. His comment about not getting to use the knife until she was ready makes me think of a more focused rogue

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 03:40 PM
Pretty much. Using the stats from the previous bard build, it's +7d6 of fire, cold, acid, electricity, and (if you can get Pyroclastic draconic heritage) sonic damage. Harmonizing enhancements on all of your instruments, so you can, every turn, start a new song, building up into a Bohemian Rhapsody of morale effects.

That would be a riot: a Heavy Metal/Punk/Rock band suddenly going all Bohemian Rhapsody on the enemy. And with only one member dragon-blooded (the lead singer, who looks like David Draiman & James Hetfield had a child), Different Of The Haunted needs band versatility

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 03:43 PM
Now, three questions from this:

1. What are all of the feats used for each character? I mean, you dabble-talked into each one, but I'm missing a lot of what makes them who they are

2. Exact level Numbers. I'm kinda new with Bard (specifically) and need some info on what number of levels "Optimally" work

3. Acting all together in "one action." IE: How can they all play their music at the same time? Yes, they are all TECHNICALLY 5 characters, but they are a band, and thus when the leader says, "Let's Rock," they all start playing music together.


And a rules question: Do multiple people using Bardic Music combine into a single song, thus creating an "Uber Bardic Music" effect?

Well, you gave me generalities to work with, so I gave you generalities back. Levels and feats depend on how powerful you want them.

Necropolitian seems like a good choice for undead. No level adjustment.

For the duo with Mindbender, you need Bard 5 to qualify. Bard4 for the drummer, then into Warblade. The Keyboard player needs more to qualify for Seeker of the Song. But, as was pointed out, perhaps Virtuoso would be a better idea, for song synergy.

So the Keyboardist should be Bard5/Chameleon2/Virtuoso to taste. If she gets to Virtuoso7 (character level 14), she gets Song of Rage, which is a viable buff for the party.

The Back-Up Singer should have Rogue2 (for evasion prerequsite)/Druid1 (to meet rest of prerequsites)/Bard7/Fochlucan Lyricist to flavor.

The Lead Singer has dual-song, so he has BOTH DFI and Song of Legion going at the same time. The back-up singer probably has more Bard levels than anyone else, so he gets to do the regular IC. Keyboardist does Song of Rage. The two guitarists... beat on things. I mean, they're guitarists... thinking isn't really their forte. Maybe if they go DFI of a different elemental flavor, it would all stack. That could get really nasty...

Just remember, when charging into battle...

And the dragon comes in the... NIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 03:59 PM
Well, you gave me generalities to work with, so I gave you generalities back. Levels and feats depend on how powerful you want them.

Necropolitian seems like a good choice for undead. No level adjustment.

For the duo with Mindbender, you need Bard 5 to qualify. Bard4 for the drummer, then into Warblade. The Keyboard player needs more to qualify for Seeker of the Song. But, as was pointed out, perhaps Virtuoso would be a better idea, for song synergy.

So the Keyboardist should be Bard5/Chameleon2/Virtuoso to taste. If she gets to Virtuoso7 (character level 14), she gets Song of Rage, which is a viable buff for the party.

The Back-Up Singer should have Rogue2 (for evasion prerequsite)/Druid1 (to meet rest of prerequsites)/Bard7/Fochlucan Lyricist to flavor.

The Lead Singer has dual-song, so he has BOTH DFI and Song of Legion going at the same time. The back-up singer probably has more Bard levels than anyone else, so he gets to do the regular IC. Keyboardist does Song of Rage. The two guitarists... beat on things. I mean, they're guitarists... thinking isn't really their forte. Maybe if they go DFI of a different elemental flavor, it would all stack. That could get really nasty...

Just remember, when charging into battle...

And the dragon comes in the... NIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!

So it would look like this?:

Different of the Haunted

Ace of Spades - Lead Singer (David Draiman & James Hetfield hybrid): Silverbrow Human Bard4/Warblade6/War Chanter10

Jack of Clubs - Back-Up Singer (Axel Rose with FLAMING DREDLOCKS!!!): Fire Elf Savage Bard 7/Rogue 2/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyricist 7

Joker of Swords - Drummer (John Bonham post-mortem): Necropolitan Barbarian1/Savage Bard 4/Warblade 14

Queen of Diamonds - Keyboard (Amy Lee): Human Bard 6/Chameleon2/Exemplar1/Virtuoso 7/Seeker of the Song 3

Kings of Hearts - Guitarist Twins (Kieth Richards + Eddie Van Halen): Dvati Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Exemplar 9

Zonugal
2011-06-21, 04:03 PM
Thanks! That's the sort of thing I was looking for. No structural damage, but that's generally avoided, I suppose. That looks like it would be rogue/combat trapsmith/something thrown in for good hand-to-hand. Any way to make high CHA do something? He'll probably hurt from low INT, but that's probably to be expected. I suppose Warlock works, since it bumps attack, but the HD aren't any better.

How about something akin to this:

Dwarf Spellthief 5/Combat Trapsmith 4/Spellthief 4/Silver Key (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2) 7

It gains a lot of swell abilities: lets you invest in Craft (Alchemy) to build Eggshell Grenades & Explosive Packs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101), minor spell-casting which uses charisma like a Sorcerer (so you get to put that high charisma to good use), and the ability to use disable device & open lock up to 60 feet away telekentically make this a pretty solid bomber (and bomb-disarmer)...

Hazzardevil
2011-06-21, 04:14 PM
what sourcebook is swordsage from?

Shame on you! Shame on You!

QuidEst
2011-06-21, 04:17 PM
How about something akin to this:

Dwarf Spellthief 5/Combat Trapsmith 4/Spellthief 4/Silver Key (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2) 7

It gains a lot of swell abilities: lets you invest in Craft (Alchemy) to build Eggshell Grenades & Explosive Packs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148101), minor spell-casting which uses charisma like a Sorcerer (so you get to put that high charisma to good use), and the ability to use disable device & open lock up to 60 feet away telekentically make this a pretty solid bomber (and bomb-disarmer)...
It fits the mechanics well, but (and it's a darn unreasonable basis to pass on it) Scralt is tall and lean, to Twitchy's short and scrawny. It would feel very weird playing scenes out without that. XP On the other hand, I'd be more than willing to try and get it by as a minor refluff if I use him, and take some sort of disadvantage somewhere. Thanks!


Shame on you! Shame on You!
Hey, be nice. I don't have any ranks in Knowledge(Sourcebooks) either.

Zonugal
2011-06-21, 04:17 PM
Sounds... like a rogue, single classed. Skill points out the wassou with hide and move silently as class skills, sneak attacks make for quick kills, with good bluff for feint you could handle battles solo against most opponents, and no alignment restrictions. I've never seen the movie though, I don't know if there are other qualifiers that Rogue misses. Heck, I can't even find the movie in IMDB... just a french movie and two TV series.

He is very good at killing low-level warriors... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmkrPWQCmIU)

mootoall
2011-06-21, 04:18 PM
I just recently watched "The Professional". Leon is the ultimate neutral good/ neutral thief. how would you build him at say level 15. MUSTS INCLUDE: ULTRA Sneaky, quick kills, possibly a solo battle expert, naive (child-like sense of humor), has a conscience.. did I miss anything?

Why, this gentleman sounds almost ... prescient! Would it be uncouth to call him a person who sees things, almost as if he can predict the future? Why then, I'd like to direct you to the Unseen Seer prestige class. A most excellent method of maintaining sneakiness, combat prowess and prescient strategizing!

Avalon2099
2011-06-21, 04:51 PM
Forgive this incoming description, I originally played the lower level version back in 2000 and hadn't touched the character in forever, recently however the DM of that game liked the concept of the character so much he has written it into his continuity and asked me to write up a history of the character leading up to recent in game events... What follows is a text message sent history largely cleaned up and posted here as I want to see other peoples thoughts on what he should be...

As long as mankind on Three Stones has existed, Fortune has been around in one way or another. Fortune is tied to the will and especially the emotions of the people, Fortune is not real in the sense of a living breathing creature rather the utter personification of living thought, and emotion, Fortune travelled the world with no particular direction, wherever the need was greatest, a woman being raped by Marauders, calling for help after her family and village was razed, Fortune would simply blow in on the wind, cutting down the aggressors, and as quickly fade into the sunset....

He quickly became legend, could never be tracked, located, even by magical means, most simply thought of him as made up stuff of dreams, until they saw him first hand... Over the years how he looked changed depending on those who told the stories to their children and their childrens children... As the people fell into constant wars, famine, plague, depravity and despair Fortune being what he was gradually changed with it... He was no master of his own destiny, he strode where the fates dictated and never once asked why... He simply did...

Fortune now is a personification of outrage, rage and anarchy... The people have been upheaved and leveled so many times the planet itself rages at the ants on it's surface, and thus Fortune became lost...

He weeped with the sadness and loss that had been suffered by all mortal races on the Stones of Three... He planted Gargantua into a large peak of a mountain and wept for days, the tears would not stop and thus created the fable of the "Mountain River"...

It was during these inconsolable years while he carried the weight of the worlds sadness, a young girl happened upon him as he had sat in the same place for years that plants had begun to grow over him, moss had attachéd to Gargantua and he was disheveled....

The river of tears that flowed from him caused the water to be salty, which is why no one could ever explain why the river further down near settlements had saltwater life growing in them... The water was still drinkable oddly, Fortune had nearly become the river itself had not a young girl happened upon him, she sat and stared for a long time, contemplating his sadness...

Finally after a time, she spoke "Why are you sad?" He looked up slowly, mossy beard and said "Life itself, it is too much for the people...Too much war... Too much depravity, too much inherent evil... It is simply too much... I cannot stand against it if the people do not want to... They have given up and thus rendered me powerless..."

The girl played with the flowers and then asked "if the people have given into their sadness and grief, why do you not simply follow suit, use that as your source of inspiration? Your new source of reason? If this is the will of the people, why fight it?..."

He looked away, mulling over the little girls words, perhaps she was right, the people had given up for years now they no longer cared for one another, went to wars with each other over petty and useless reasons, caused great tragedy through use of evil magics such as plagues, no one cared... Despair was all the knew... He looked up to the girl and nodded, wiping away his tears, for years this river of tears had flowed and in a single night dried up, depriving the people it's sustenance... He broke free of the weeds and tore the moss... "If the people want Sadness and Grief, then they shall have it..." He gripped Gargantua, who silently said to him 'Something is not right... Do not listen to her...' he ignored it blindly consumed by his own sadness, grief and rage..."I will deliver Saddness...." he cleaved the mountain with his sword as an avalanche of stones fell... "I will bury them with Grief" he turned and held the silently protesting Gargantua to the sky "But above all, they will know my Rage as that which they have buried and as it comes to me I will consume them with it... FOR YOU CAN HAVE IT ALL BACK!!! Despayr comes for you!!!!" he boomed as the lightning struck multiple times around him scorching the garden of hope that was growing beneath his notice..

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 05:00 PM
So it would look like this?:

Different of the Haunted

Ace of Spades - Lead Singer (Ozzy Osborne): Silverbrow Human Bard4/Warblade6/War Chanter10

Joker - Back-Up Singer (John Lennon!!!): Fire Elf Savage Bard 7/Rogue 2/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyricist 7

Jack of Clubs - Drummer (John Bonham post-mortem): Necropolitan Barbarian1/Savage Bard 4/Warblade 14

Queen of Diamonds - Keyboard (Amy Lee): Human Bard 6/Chameleon2/Exemplar1/Virtuoso 7/Seeker of the Song 3

Kings of Hearts - Guitarist Twins (Wolfgang Van Halen+ Eddie Van Halen): Dvati Bard 5/Mindbender 1/Exemplar 9

There we go, that looks a little better. The drummer had better be a face card of clubs, and you can't get more groovy than John Lennon. And of course he's a joker... playin' his music in the sun...

Tokuhara
2011-06-21, 05:04 PM
There we go, that looks a little better. The drummer had better be a face card of clubs, and you can't get more groovy than John Lennon. And of course he's a joker... playin' his music in the sun...

You are a riot, shneekey.

Grendus
2011-06-21, 05:26 PM
He is very good at killing low-level warriors... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmkrPWQCmIU)

Well, the downside to any character using a gun is modern pistols are pretty much lethal, especially if you use something like hollow point rounds - something like 1d12 damage with an x4 critical multiplier - so you don't really need Sneak Attack to kill anyone any more. And the guys in ski masks are pretty dopy. I'd honestly put him as an urban ranger after that, TWF spec, with Favored Enemy (Human) and Craft (Trapmaking) for the ambush and gas line. Corner Perch skill trick covers him hiding in the door, and being sixth level (which is about what I'd peg him as, honestly, at the limit of what you can expect in the real world) would let him have four attacks per round with ITWF.

Sorry, nothing spectacular here. Still an impressive guy, but it's a very easy concept to fill.

Zonugal
2011-06-21, 07:17 PM
Well, the downside to any character using a gun is modern pistols are pretty much lethal, especially if you use something like hollow point rounds - something like 1d12 damage with an x4 critical multiplier - so you don't really need Sneak Attack to kill anyone any more. And the guys in ski masks are pretty dopy. I'd honestly put him as an urban ranger after that, TWF spec, with Favored Enemy (Human) and Craft (Trapmaking) for the ambush and gas line. Corner Perch skill trick covers him hiding in the door, and being sixth level (which is about what I'd peg him as, honestly, at the limit of what you can expect in the real world) would let him have four attacks per round with ITWF.

Sorry, nothing spectacular here. Still an impressive guy, but it's a very easy concept to fill.

And I'm certainly not arguing that point.

I'd say that perhaps another attempt at him could be Rogue 2/Urban Ranger 2/Rogue 1/Fighter 1 (Using Hit & Run tactics) with a high focus on duel wielding hand crossbows. Regarding sneak attack I might re-flavor it to be a sort of precision-based sharp shooting.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-06-21, 07:17 PM
Ok, I have been playing Mortal Kombat a lot these days, and I want to see if you can build a competent character based on my favourite undead warrior ever.... Scorpion with all his iconic abilities:

Decent using weapons
Decent Unarmed Kombat abilties
Able to breath fire
His trusty harpoon/snake thingy/whatever.
Undead-ness is optional; but bonus cookies if you can.


The only catch is.... no ToB classes, everything else is fair game (I am not sure if this violates the rules set up by Shneekey in the OP) (Unarmed Swordsage with focus on Shadow Hand and Desert Wind)

So is anyone up for the challenge?

Zonugal
2011-06-21, 07:24 PM
Ok, I have been playing Mortal Kombat a lot these days, and I want to see if you can build a competent character based on my favourite undead warrior ever.... Scorpion with all his iconic abilities:

Decent using weapons
Decent Unarmed Kombat abilties
Able to breath fire
His trusty harpoon/snake thingy/whatever.
Undead-ness is optional; but bonus cookies if you can.


The only catch is.... no ToB classes, everything else is fair game (I am not sure if this violates the rules set up by Shneekey in the OP) (Unarmed Swordsage with focus on Shadow Hand and Desert Wind)

So is anyone up for the challenge?

How about a Bone Creature Monk 2/Fighter 2/Monk 1/Pyrokineticist X (using Tashalatora) who for the harpoon either uses a standard harpoon or a re-flavored kusari-gama (from DMG)?

If that doesn't work you could always explore playing an Enlightened Fist from Complete Arcana.

Zaq
2011-06-21, 07:24 PM
OK Shneeky, I've got another one. This one is pretty much a famous weakness in the 3.5 system, so I'm genuinely curious to see what you come up with, and I wouldn't consider this a failed effort if it doesn't work. I know a few ways to kinda fake it, but . . . anyway, on with the show.

There's a fairly major video game (and other media, but that's not the point) archetype that just doesn't work too well in 3.5. Megaman. Kirby. The Blue Mage. Ditto. I think you've guessed where I'm going by now. "Hey, that looks neat. Lemme try." What can we come up with for a character who copies and/or steals the tricks and abilities of their foes? The more tricks we can directly copy, the better. Combat maneuvers (Sublime Way and PHB-style), magic (the Spellthief's a good start, but can we do better?), mundane class features, whatever. I can do that. You just gotta show me how . . . oh look, you just did. I don't care if you have to kill them first, if you can just watch them and do it, if you have to land some kind of attack on them, whatever. Just show me that you've got what he does. Bonus points if you do it without Illithid Savant.

No level specified, but as always, the sooner the better.

(Disclaimer: I'm well aware of why, as a design choice, it wouldn't make much sense to put easy access to these abilities in a game like 3.5. That's not the point. How well can we fake it anyway?)

Veyr
2011-06-21, 07:59 PM
Scorpion with [...] His trusty harpoon/snake thingy/whatever.
Grappling Vine, an Eldeen Plantgraft from Magic of Eberron, does this. Not sure if it's incompatible with undead, though.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-21, 08:01 PM
OK Shneeky, I've got another one. This one is pretty much a famous weakness in the 3.5 system, so I'm genuinely curious to see what you come up with, and I wouldn't consider this a failed effort if it doesn't work. I know a few ways to kinda fake it, but . . . anyway, on with the show.

There's a fairly major video game (and other media, but that's not the point) archetype that just doesn't work too well in 3.5. Megaman. Kirby. The Blue Mage. Ditto. I think you've guessed where I'm going by now. "Hey, that looks neat. Lemme try." What can we come up with for a character who copies and/or steals the tricks and abilities of their foes? The more tricks we can directly copy, the better. Combat maneuvers (Sublime Way and PHB-style), magic (the Spellthief's a good start, but can we do better?), mundane class features, whatever. I can do that. You just gotta show me how . . . oh look, you just did. I don't care if you have to kill them first, if you can just watch them and do it, if you have to land some kind of attack on them, whatever. Just show me that you've got what he does. Bonus points if you do it without Illithid Savant.

No level specified, but as always, the sooner the better.

(Disclaimer: I'm well aware of why, as a design choice, it wouldn't make much sense to put easy access to these abilities in a game like 3.5. That's not the point. How well can we fake it anyway?)

The typical solution to this is Shapechange. "Oh hey, that looks nifty" *POOF* "Okay, now i'm that, and i can do that too" With various means of actually getting their SU abilities, it's pretty much what you ask for.

Unfortunately, it's not something you can get before 17

Well, Druid/Wildshape Ranger + MoMF will get most of it.

mootoall
2011-06-21, 09:04 PM
Ok, I have been playing Mortal Kombat a lot these days, and I want to see if you can build a competent character based on my favourite undead warrior ever.... Scorpion with all his iconic abilities:

Decent using weapons
Decent Unarmed Kombat abilties
Able to breath fire
His trusty harpoon/snake thingy/whatever.
Undead-ness is optional; but bonus cookies if you can.


The only catch is.... no ToB classes, everything else is fair game (I am not sure if this violates the rules set up by Shneekey in the OP) (Unarmed Swordsage with focus on Shadow Hand and Desert Wind)

So is anyone up for the challenge?

Your classic for breathing fire would be DFA, but with their poor BAB they're not what you're looking for, as well as undeadedness removes their Con score, making for weird interactions with DCs. Hmm ...

Dragonborn gives you a breath weapon, and the "recharge" mechanic makes it pretty videogame-y. By making you tougher, it also helps the Mortal Kombat toughness. We're ignoring the fluff, so this gives you what you want.

Now, the build seems to favor a Tashalatora PsyWar. Gives you great unarmed combat, and several of the more ... tentacle-y powers can be your harpoon-thingy. Blasting powers give even more "fire breath," and the build is entirely compatable with necropolitan!

Edit: Also, with 3/4 BAB and nice proficiency, weapons are deadly in your hands.


OK Shneeky, I've got another one. This one is pretty much a famous weakness in the 3.5 system, so I'm genuinely curious to see what you come up with, and I wouldn't consider this a failed effort if it doesn't work. I know a few ways to kinda fake it, but . . . anyway, on with the show.

There's a fairly major video game (and other media, but that's not the point) archetype that just doesn't work too well in 3.5. Megaman. Kirby. The Blue Mage. Ditto. I think you've guessed where I'm going by now. "Hey, that looks neat. Lemme try." What can we come up with for a character who copies and/or steals the tricks and abilities of their foes? The more tricks we can directly copy, the better. Combat maneuvers (Sublime Way and PHB-style), magic (the Spellthief's a good start, but can we do better?), mundane class features, whatever. I can do that. You just gotta show me how . . . oh look, you just did. I don't care if you have to kill them first, if you can just watch them and do it, if you have to land some kind of attack on them, whatever. Just show me that you've got what he does. Bonus points if you do it without Illithid Savant.

No level specified, but as always, the sooner the better.

(Disclaimer: I'm well aware of why, as a design choice, it wouldn't make much sense to put easy access to these abilities in a game like 3.5. That's not the point. How well can we fake it anyway?)

Hmm, it's only at high levels, but I think Factotum is giving us another run for our money! Copy any Ex class ability with, I think it's called this anyhow, Cunning Brilliance. According to one of the Monster Manuals, by the by, Spellcasting is Ex ...

Grendus
2011-06-21, 09:28 PM
OK Shneeky, I've got another one. This one is pretty much a famous weakness in the 3.5 system, so I'm genuinely curious to see what you come up with, and I wouldn't consider this a failed effort if it doesn't work. I know a few ways to kinda fake it, but . . . anyway, on with the show.

There's a fairly major video game (and other media, but that's not the point) archetype that just doesn't work too well in 3.5. Megaman. Kirby. The Blue Mage. Ditto. I think you've guessed where I'm going by now. "Hey, that looks neat. Lemme try." What can we come up with for a character who copies and/or steals the tricks and abilities of their foes? The more tricks we can directly copy, the better. Combat maneuvers (Sublime Way and PHB-style), magic (the Spellthief's a good start, but can we do better?), mundane class features, whatever. I can do that. You just gotta show me how . . . oh look, you just did. I don't care if you have to kill them first, if you can just watch them and do it, if you have to land some kind of attack on them, whatever. Just show me that you've got what he does. Bonus points if you do it without Illithid Savant.

No level specified, but as always, the sooner the better.

(Disclaimer: I'm well aware of why, as a design choice, it wouldn't make much sense to put easy access to these abilities in a game like 3.5. That's not the point. How well can we fake it anyway?)

Human Wildshape Ranger 5/Chameleon 2/Master of Many Forms 10/Chameleon 3. Use the Chameleon's floating feat to take the Assume Su Ability feat, while the MoMF capstone gives you the EX abilities for free. You can also assume some basic spellcasting via Chameleon (you can fit in the last three Chameleon levels whenever you want, and even drop as many as three MoMF levels for more Chameleon spellcasting). It's not capable of mimicking more than fifth level spells pre-epic, but considering that sixth level and higher spells are kind of like boss abilities, which you almost never get to emulate directly, that doesn't really violate the challenge any.

Edit: One moment... entry doesn't work. Neither Ranger nor Druid have the class skills for Chameleon entry like that. Might have to sneak in a level of Factotem, which sucks because that takes away a level of Chameleon. And my god, finding a decent class with Disguise and Bluff as class skills is hard. So we're looking at Rogue 1/Druid 5/Chameleon 2/Master of Many Forms 10/Chameleon 2. You get a lot of low level spells, the ability to assume the supernatural abilities of one of your forms once a day, and all the extraordinary abilities of any form you can assume. Should fit the bill nicely.

dextercorvia
2011-06-21, 09:39 PM
OK Shneeky, I've got another one. This one is pretty much a famous weakness in the 3.5 system, so I'm genuinely curious to see what you come up with, and I wouldn't consider this a failed effort if it doesn't work. I know a few ways to kinda fake it, but . . . anyway, on with the show.

There's a fairly major video game (and other media, but that's not the point) archetype that just doesn't work too well in 3.5. Megaman. Kirby. The Blue Mage. Ditto. I think you've guessed where I'm going by now. "Hey, that looks neat. Lemme try." What can we come up with for a character who copies and/or steals the tricks and abilities of their foes? The more tricks we can directly copy, the better. Combat maneuvers (Sublime Way and PHB-style), magic (the Spellthief's a good start, but can we do better?), mundane class features, whatever. I can do that. You just gotta show me how . . . oh look, you just did. I don't care if you have to kill them first, if you can just watch them and do it, if you have to land some kind of attack on them, whatever. Just show me that you've got what he does. Bonus points if you do it without Illithid Savant.

No level specified, but as always, the sooner the better.

(Disclaimer: I'm well aware of why, as a design choice, it wouldn't make much sense to put easy access to these abilities in a game like 3.5. That's not the point. How well can we fake it anyway?)


The typical solution to this is Shapechange. "Oh hey, that looks nifty" *POOF* "Okay, now i'm that, and i can do that too" With various means of actually getting their SU abilities, it's pretty much what you ask for.

Unfortunately, it's not something you can get before 17

Well, Druid/Wildshape Ranger + MoMF will get most of it.

I'm afraid to say it, but how about a Wizard? Specifically, let's go with an Elf Wizard5/ArdentDilettante9. We'll need Southern Magician for AD, Craft Contingent Spell for survival. See it Again+Mage's Lucubration means we can do it back to them, and keep it for later. Spell Turning means they eat their own spell first. (Ray Deflection is also a possibility here.) Spells like Master's Touch and Heroics will allow us to replicate Maneuvers and other Melee gimmicks. The False Theurgy skill trick can be used to trick someone into thinking you are replicating their spell. Listen to This, similarly, could be used to duplicate the Verbal component of a recently cast spell. Of course, at ECL18 you get Shapechange, which opens a whole new world of options.

Amphetryon
2011-06-21, 09:43 PM
OK Shneeky, I've got another one. This one is pretty much a famous weakness in the 3.5 system, so I'm genuinely curious to see what you come up with, and I wouldn't consider this a failed effort if it doesn't work. I know a few ways to kinda fake it, but . . . anyway, on with the show.

There's a fairly major video game (and other media, but that's not the point) archetype that just doesn't work too well in 3.5. Megaman. Kirby. The Blue Mage. Ditto. I think you've guessed where I'm going by now. "Hey, that looks neat. Lemme try." What can we come up with for a character who copies and/or steals the tricks and abilities of their foes? The more tricks we can directly copy, the better. Combat maneuvers (Sublime Way and PHB-style), magic (the Spellthief's a good start, but can we do better?), mundane class features, whatever. I can do that. You just gotta show me how . . . oh look, you just did. I don't care if you have to kill them first, if you can just watch them and do it, if you have to land some kind of attack on them, whatever. Just show me that you've got what he does. Bonus points if you do it without Illithid Savant.

No level specified, but as always, the sooner the better.

(Disclaimer: I'm well aware of why, as a design choice, it wouldn't make much sense to put easy access to these abilities in a game like 3.5. That's not the point. How well can we fake it anyway?)

Some combination of Factotum/Master of Masks/Spymaster/Chameleon could pull this off reasonably well, I think.

ImperatorK
2011-06-21, 10:02 PM
@ The Scorpion idea
For breathing fire you could work some levels of Dragon Shaman into the build.

I got my own challenge for you guys:
Anyone reads manga or watches anime? "Histories Strongest Disciple Kenichi" to be more precize? Well, I'm very curious how would you stat up the protagonist and various characters from the story. They're all basicly unarmed combatants with armed fighters in the later chapters of the manga (the anime did go that far).

Dusk Eclipse
2011-06-21, 11:18 PM
Your classic for breathing fire would be DFA, but with their poor BAB they're not what you're looking for, as well as undeadedness removes their Con score, making for weird interactions with DCs. Hmm ...

Dragonborn gives you a breath weapon, and the "recharge" mechanic makes it pretty videogame-y. By making you tougher, it also helps the Mortal Kombat toughness. We're ignoring the fluff, so this gives you what you want.

Now, the build seems to favor a Tashalatora PsyWar. Gives you great unarmed combat, and several of the more ... tentacle-y powers can be your harpoon-thingy. Blasting powers give even more "fire breath," and the build is entirely compatable with necropolitan!

Edit: Also, with 3/4 BAB and nice proficiency, weapons are deadly in your hands.



Dragonborn... hm I would have never thought on it; other than that I think you hit all the right points. Tashalastora also work quite nicely.

Tvtyrant
2011-06-21, 11:36 PM
@ The Scorpion idea
For breathing fire you could work some levels of Dragon Shaman into the build.

I got my own challenge for you guys:
Anyone reads manga or watches anime? "Histories Strongest Disciple Kenichi" to be more precize? Well, I'm very curious how would you stat up the protagonist and various characters from the story. They're all basicly unarmed combatants with armed fighters in the later chapters of the manga (the anime did go that far).

Hmmm, I would argue that each of the 9 shadows focuses on one school of the 9 schools in ToB. Kenichi is working on a Master of 9 build from Swordsage (only uses his special moves once each in a fight). All of the master levels are Epic, which explains how they are so far ahead. Shou was also a Master of 9 build, given more time I could do each person.

Veyr
2011-06-21, 11:42 PM
A Dragonborn can also definitely get the Grappling Vine from Magic of Eberron, and that is a cheap (literally just costs not-too-much gold) method of getting a very good imitation of Scorpion's harpoon.

ImperatorK
2011-06-22, 12:12 AM
Hmmm, I would argue that each of the 9 shadows focuses on one school of the 9 schools in ToB. Kenichi is working on a Master of 9 build from Swordsage (only uses his special moves once each in a fight). All of the master levels are Epic, which explains how they are so far ahead. Shou was also a Master of 9 build, given more time I could do each person.
I think there where fights in which he used some of his special attacks more then once, but I can't remember of the top of my head. I try to find them.
Also, I think that his Seikuken (sp?) is Swordsages AC Bonus, but he got it later in his training, so... maybe some levels of Warblade first and then Swordsage?

Tvtyrant
2011-06-22, 12:16 AM
I think there where fights in which he used some of his special attacks more then once, but I can't remember of the top of my head. I try to find them.

I still think Unarmed Swordsage is the best fit, but you can go into Master of 9 with the others as well.

Bewitching Fist is probably a ShadowSun Ninja honestly; or something else that grants tons and tons of miss chances.

ImperatorK
2011-06-22, 12:36 AM
Sakaki... Warblade with Stone Dragon and Iron Heart maneuvers, probably.

Tvtyrant
2011-06-22, 12:46 AM
Sakaki... Warblade with Stone Dragon and Iron Heart maneuvers, probably.

I was actually thinking Devoted Spirit, since he has the whole Dao aura that rips up things around him and smacks things really hard.

ImperatorK
2011-06-22, 12:48 AM
I was actually thinking Devoted Spirit, since he has the whole Dao aura that rips up things around him and smacks things really hard.
Hm... Maybe, maybe. Warblade/Crusader, with lots of Intimidating. I love it how he blew of those deliquents with just a stare. :smallbiggrin:

Tvtyrant
2011-06-22, 12:51 AM
Hm... Maybe, maybe. Warblade/Crusader, with lots of Intimidating. I love it how he blew of those deliquents with just a stare. :smallbiggrin:

He is actually an intimidate build samurai. Explains why he gets injured so often!

I'm going Eternal Blade for The Invincible Superman.

ImperatorK
2011-06-22, 12:59 AM
Shigure? Ranger with Urban Companion ACF (Cityscape web, afaik) for a mouse that is a better martial artist then her disciple. :smallamused: (Touhamaru would gain 3/4 Shigures hp, her BaB, her skills, she could talk with him, etc. - perfect for her :smallbiggrin:)

Tvtyrant
2011-06-22, 01:07 AM
Shigure? Ranger with Urban Companion ACF (Cityscape web, afaik) for a mouse that is a better martial artist then her disciple. :smallamused: (Touhamaru would gain 3/4 Shigures hp, her BaB, her skills, she could talk with him, etc. - perfect for her :smallbiggrin:)

But she would be really weak... Hold on while I work out some build stuff.

ImperatorK
2011-06-22, 01:12 AM
You really need only 4 levels in Ranger to get that ACF. and speaking with master isn't that important.

Lord_Gareth
2011-06-22, 02:10 AM
BUILD CHALLENGE: An INT-SAD melee character that does not use arcane, divine, or psionic casting.

NineThePuma
2011-06-22, 02:14 AM
FACTOTUM/WARBLADE, THE ANSWER TO ALL LIFE'S SAD NEEDS.

Quirp
2011-06-22, 04:05 AM
Ok, I have been playing Mortal Kombat a lot these days, and I want to see if you can build a competent character based on my favourite undead warrior ever.... Scorpion with all his iconic abilities:

Decent using weapons
Decent Unarmed Kombat abilties
Able to breath fire
His trusty harpoon/snake thingy/whatever.
Undead-ness is optional; but bonus cookies if you can.

So is anyone up for the challenge?

Since I always try to build a character using the binder:
Binder 15/Knight of the Sacred Seal 5
Binding Amon, the Triad and Ronove you gain proficiency with all weapons, a fire breath attack and the unarmed strike progression of a monk. If you are a Necropolitan and buy a harpoon (Stormwrack I think) you are set.

Vasja
2011-06-22, 05:17 AM
Hey.

How would you create a Necron Lord (from Warhammer 40k universe)?
An almost undestructible (undead) robot with great melee power (natural claw attacks?), invisibility, stuns, short range teleports, the ability to heal/resurrect fallen allies and so on.
I am looking for a build that does not require a great deal of buffing time per combat - the less the better.

Amphetryon
2011-06-22, 05:48 AM
Hey.

How would you create a Necron Lord (from Warhammer 40k universe)?
An almost undestructible (undead) robot with great melee power (natural claw attacks?), invisibility, stuns, short range teleports, the ability to heal/resurrect fallen allies and so on.
I am looking for a build that does not require a great deal of buffing time per combat - the less the better.
Necropolitan Warforged Psychic Warrior 10/Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c) 10, Claws of the Vampire, Astral Construct, and Share Pain mandatory.

mootoall
2011-06-22, 09:05 AM
Hey.

How would you create a Necron Lord (from Warhammer 40k universe)?
An almost undestructible (undead) robot with great melee power (natural claw attacks?), invisibility, stuns, short range teleports, the ability to heal/resurrect fallen allies and so on.
I am looking for a build that does not require a great deal of buffing time per combat - the less the better.

Invisibility and teleports sounds like Swordsage to me, and the stuns probably requires Monk unless you want to pick the feat up yourself. However, the healing/resurrecting is tough ... Necropolitan Warforged for the Undead Robot, then the build is Monk 2/Totemist 2 (for Landshark Boots totem bind)/Unarmed Swordsage X (See if unarmed strike progression stacks with Monk)/Psywar with Tashalatora Y. You also get the benefits of getting really really big :smalltongue:

Urpriest
2011-06-22, 09:20 AM
Shapeshifter of the mix'n'match in combat variety, growing different weapons and/or other bodyparts from round to round to adapt to different situations. Must not use NI cheese (so Warshaper can't grant multiple weapons).

Reposting this for visibility.

mootoall
2011-06-22, 09:44 AM
BUILD CHALLENGE: An INT-SAD melee character that does not use arcane, divine, or psionic casting.

Well, this is a tough one, but one that should be not doable. You can't *dump* any of your stats, but just make sure you don't have penalties, because most of this is adding Int to things, not replacing it.

Start with Swashbuckler 3. I know, cliche, but hey, it works. Fairie Mysteries Initiate to replace Con to HP, and there's a whole line of feats that makes all of your saves based off Dex, making you Int/Dex dependent. Not quite what you're looking for, but a start. Add in a level of Fighter for the feat, and to round off the even level progression that you need to add Warblade X/Factotum Y, where X and Y are a combination that will get you 16 or more BAB. Be prepared to use flaws to get the feat heavy parts of this build off the ground.


Reposting this for visibility.

As I see it, your main problem lies in the "Mix 'n' match in combat" bit, otherwise you'd want Totemist. To that, I say you want a Wildshape type effect, refluffed as "Oh, I only grow the weapons." So you could go Shifter Druid (also gaining a bunch of spells (Bite of the Werewhathaveyou, etc.) to get shifting and wildshape, or Shifter Wildshape Ranger (the variety of natural attacks on only Medium creatures is still pretty big) and go into Master of Many Forms. Also, for +1 LA, there's a template out there, I forget where, that gives you the wildshape of an 11th level druid, but only for certain forms, and indefinitely. That could be used for one extra form/a few extra uses per day.

Amphetryon
2011-06-22, 09:56 AM
BUILD CHALLENGE: An INT-SAD melee character that does not use arcane, divine, or psionic casting.

There's this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871346/Tome_of_Battle:_Build_Compendium&post_num=122#338391406), and then there's this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871346/Tome_of_Battle:_Build_Compendium&post_num=363#338392370), from Tleilaxu_Ghola's old thread at 339.

danzibr
2011-06-22, 11:00 AM
I'm trying to prove here that any character concept CAN be appropriately represented by a mechanics build, AND be a viable and playable build who has something to contribute, although the mechanics necessary to do what you want to do may be a bit convoluted, depending on your request.

Ahh I love this...

So for my request, the ultimate in mobility. This person doesn't care about offense or defense (at least, not being able to take hits), only mobility. Teleport whenever, however, wherever they want, super speed if they want it, flying, tunneling, anything. I'm not sure it's within the mechanics, but maybe some psionic character would come closest.

mootoall
2011-06-22, 12:32 PM
Ahh I love this...

So for my request, the ultimate in mobility. This person doesn't care about offense or defense (at least, not being able to take hits), only mobility. Teleport whenever, however, wherever they want, super speed if they want it, flying, tunneling, anything. I'm not sure it's within the mechanics, but maybe some psionic character would come closest.

Psionics does do this! However, if you want only bonus speed, well, you wanna be diptastic.

Extra actions are your friend, because every standard action can be turned into a move action. So give yourself Hustle through PsyWar 4, then Barbarian 1 for fast movement, then a couple levels of Wizard for Expeditious Retreat AND Alter Self, altering self into a fleet footed race. Monk, unfortunately, doesn't stack with Expeditious Retreat. In fact, just add some more Wizard in for teleport, and Haste for more actions. I'm not sure if Snake's Swiftness gives an extra attack or an extra standard action, but pick that up. Grab a belt of battle too, and you should be pretty much good.

If you do, on the other hand, want to be effective, Totemist/Swordsage is your best bet, for move action and standard action teleports. There are lots of ways to do this :smalltongue:

EDIT: Also, check out Personman's guide to free movement. It's great. Some highlights are Travel Devotion, Anklets of Translocation, and Sudden Leap from ToB.

dextercorvia
2011-06-22, 12:53 PM
Ahh I love this...

So for my request, the ultimate in mobility. This person doesn't care about offense or defense (at least, not being able to take hits), only mobility. Teleport whenever, however, wherever they want, super speed if they want it, flying, tunneling, anything. I'm not sure it's within the mechanics, but maybe some psionic character would come closest.

Ardent1/CloisteredCleric1/Ardent+1/PsychicTheurge10/Cerebremancer7

Mantles: Freedom (using mantle customization to replace Evade Burst with Inconstant Location), Time, The Planes.

Domains: Spell (Spontaneous Domain ACF), Celerity, Knowledge.

Feats: Martial Study: Sudden Leap (Take Wolf-fang Strike first, and then retrain that feat away once you have Sudden Leap. It can satisfy its own prereq.) Arcane Disciple: Travel, Martial Study: White Raven Tactics(same trick as above), Martial Stance: Leaping Dragon Stance, Speed of Thought

Land Speed is 60 before enhancements. For Burrowing, Climbing, etc. use Alter Self via Anyspell. Dragonborn Wings aspect would get you an extra +10 to your Jump check and eventually flight (With a speed of 50 while psionically focused).

mootoall
2011-06-22, 12:57 PM
Ah, yes, there is a psionic feat that increases your base land speed. That's compatable with psywar and Hustle!

dextercorvia
2011-06-22, 01:05 PM
Ah, yes, there is a psionic feat that increases your base land speed. That's compatable with psywar and Hustle!

Ardent gets Hustle from the Freedom mantle a level earlier than PsyWarrior, and that mantle grants him an additional +10 to speed.

Eloel
2011-06-22, 01:05 PM
You could also go with Swordsage20, for 3 teleports a round. It's gotta count for something.

mootoall
2011-06-22, 01:17 PM
Ardent gets Hustle from the Freedom mantle a level earlier than PsyWarrior, and that mantle grants him an additional +10 to speed.

Huh. Yup, that's better than Psywar, in that case. And that gives you another level you can do whatever you want with, including some ToB for White Raven Tactics, giving you more actions for even more movement!


You could also go with Swordsage20, for 3 teleports a round. It's gotta count for something.

It's good for building Nightcrawler :smalltongue:

Dusk Eclipse
2011-06-22, 01:28 PM
Can we add a little Sinchronicity abuse (I ready an action to move XXX feet):smalltongue:

mootoall
2011-06-22, 01:30 PM
Synchronisity wouldn't be untoward to put on the Time mantle, if it doesn't have it already!

Dusk Eclipse
2011-06-22, 01:31 PM
It's a level 1 power, Hidden Talent can get you it and 2 extra PP for a feat

Grendus
2011-06-22, 01:40 PM
Now if we could just get Schism. Teleport, blast, move... you'll be uncatchable until you run out of PP.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-06-22, 01:44 PM
Now if we could just get Schism. Teleport, blast, move... you'll be uncatchable until you run out of PP.

Not really a problem, there are quite a bit ways of PP recharge, the most easy is to buy LOTS of +1 manifesting ammunition 5 PP per pop, Low level powers that need no augmentation (say hustle) for basically free.

Eloel
2011-06-22, 01:45 PM
Now if we could just get Schism. Teleport, blast, move... you'll be uncatchable until you run out of PP.
That reminds me, I had some kind of an Exalted Wildshape Ranger/Warlock/Totemist hybrid, that WS'd into a Blink Dog, some time ago. Dimension Door somewhere, Eldritch Blast, Blink Shirt back to a hiding spot. Add to that the Warlock invisibility and/or Blink, and you're not getting caught anytime soon.

Grendus
2011-06-22, 02:07 PM
Not really a problem, there are quite a bit ways of PP recharge, the most easy is to buy LOTS of +1 manifesting ammunition 5 PP per pop, Low level powers that need no augmentation (say hustle) for basically free.

Clever. Kind of cheesy, but clever.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-06-22, 02:33 PM
Clever. Kind of cheesy, but clever.

I wish i could take the credit; but I didn't come up with this trick.

Another option is to go to the psionic node for 5 extra PP

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-22, 06:58 PM
Ahh I love this...

So for my request, the ultimate in mobility. This person doesn't care about offense or defense (at least, not being able to take hits), only mobility. Teleport whenever, however, wherever they want, super speed if they want it, flying, tunneling, anything. I'm not sure it's within the mechanics, but maybe some psionic character would come closest.

Mobility, eh? Sure, we can do that.

First off, Totemist2. This gets you Blink Vest bound to Totem chakra to be able to teleport as a Move action.

You can combo this with White Raven Tactics for infinite teleportation, but be advised that if you try this in any game, you will have books thrown at you.

Pegasus Cloak grants you Flight

Impulse Boots net you Uncanny Dodge and Evasion... also the traits of a highly mobile individual

From there, you can use the suggestions others have had concerning psionics to get your super speed.

dextercorvia
2011-06-22, 09:08 PM
Mobility, eh? Sure, we can do that.

First off, Totemist2. This gets you Blink Vest bound to Totem chakra to be able to teleport as a Move action.

You can combo this with White Raven Tactics for infinite teleportation, but be advised that if you try this in any game, you will have books thrown at you.

Pegasus Cloak grants you Flight

Impulse Boots net you Uncanny Dodge and Evasion... also the traits of a highly mobile individual

From there, you can use the suggestions others have had concerning psionics to get your super speed.

Are there any ways of going infinite on WRT without Idiot Crusader?

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-22, 11:23 PM
Are there any ways of going infinite on WRT without Idiot Crusader?

Yea. Blink Shirt bound to Totem for move-action teleports + Shadow Pounce (for full attacks) + WRT.

You blink, you get a full-round attack. You use WRT, you get another move action, which you use to blink again, which gives you another full-round action

Since you're a Warblade, you get to refresh your maneuvers on an attack. Then you WRT again.

Infinite attacks.

dextercorvia
2011-06-22, 11:40 PM
Yea. Blink Shirt bound to Totem for move-action teleports + Shadow Pounce (for full attacks) + WRT.

You blink, you get a full-round attack. You use WRT, you get another move action, which you use to blink again, which gives you another full-round action

Since you're a Warblade, you get to refresh your maneuvers on an attack. Then you WRT again.

Infinite attacks.

Warblades require a swift action followed by an attack or flourish. WRT also requires a swift action to initiate. How are you getting two swift actions in a turn?

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-22, 11:48 PM
Warblades require a swift action followed by an attack or flourish. WRT also requires a swift action to initiate. How are you getting two swift actions in a turn?

Huh, you're right, didn't notice that before. Wasn't there something in Diamond Mind that let you have two swift actions per round? Or was it simply letting you do multiple boosts/counters?

EDIT: Stance of Alacrity lets you do an extra Counter without blowing your immediate action... phooie.

Oh well, I guess you'll have to go with RKV and simply be satisfied with (number of turn attempts) full attacks instead...

dextercorvia
2011-06-22, 11:53 PM
Huh, you're right, didn't notice that before. Wasn't there something in Diamond Mind that let you have two swift actions per round? Or was it simply letting you do multiple boosts/counters?

EDIT: Stance of Alacrity lets you do an extra Counter without blowing your immediate action... phooie.

Oh well, I guess you'll have to go with RKV and simply be satisfied with (number of turn attempts) full attacks instead...

Stance of Alacrity lets you make a counter each round without using an immediate action.

Edit: Ninja'd with the edit.

Heliomance
2011-06-23, 07:33 AM
I'd like to see a stealthy assassin type. Some who can get in anywhere without being detected, deal with any guards that he happens to come across with no commotion whatsoever - preferably non lethally, he's not getting paid for them - guarantee that they won't be found until he's gone, locate his target, eliminate him, and get away clean with no-one knowing anything's wrong until they find the body the next morning. Bonus points for making it look natural, if such a thing is possihle in D&D.

Eloel
2011-06-23, 07:59 AM
I'd like to see a stealthy assassin type. Some who can get in anywhere without being detected, deal with any guards that he happens to come across with no commotion whatsoever - preferably non lethally, he's not getting paid for them - guarantee that they won't be found until he's gone, locate his target, eliminate him, and get away clean with no-one knowing anything's wrong until they find the body the next morning. Bonus points for making it look natural, if such a thing is possihle in D&D.

You're looking for a Wizard with Superior Invisibility, Maze, Discern Location and Finger of Death.

Yeah, I used the easy way :smallbiggrin:

mootoall
2011-06-23, 10:16 AM
Well, we could just recommend Wizard for everything, but let's not, shall we? I think that some Warlock/Rogue multiclass does good for this build. Spiderclimb lets you do the classic "Hide on the ceiling" bit that Batman etc. are able to do, and SA is probably gonna be your best chance for instagibbing. If DimDoor can be used through walls, Warlock gets that too. Your main difficulty is dealing your lots of damage, but getting in close with Whispergnome silence should handle multi-round kills.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-23, 01:55 PM
I'd like to see a stealthy assassin type. Some who can get in anywhere without being detected, deal with any guards that he happens to come across with no commotion whatsoever - preferably non lethally, he's not getting paid for them - guarantee that they won't be found until he's gone, locate his target, eliminate him, and get away clean with no-one knowing anything's wrong until they find the body the next morning. Bonus points for making it look natural, if such a thing is possihle in D&D.

Honestly? Changeling Warlock.

Take the Changeling racial feat which allows him to fool divination spells. Congratulations, you've now got the perfect infiltrator. Walk Unseen (or, if you prefer, the Dark invocation which is Greater Invisibility) lets you ghost past things without See Invis. Entropic Warding lets you fool Scent and also has Pass Without Trace thrown into the mix, keeping you from being tracked.

Spider Climb is an invocation you can pick up to do the whole spider-man thing, or if you want to make it easier, just pick up Fell Flight. Now you can get into higher level windows without needing to worry about it. That should bypass a whole bunch of guards right there.

Invocations are Spell-Like Abilities, and thus do not have verbal components, so you can use invocations as much as you like and still remain silent.

+1 Mithral Chain Shirt of Silent Moves and Shadowed is your 'sneak suit'. Upgrade 'silent moves' and 'shadowed' as you gain in levels for higher bonuses to Hide and Move Silently. This will help for your purely mundane stealth abilities. Even better, changelings can get Able Learner, so you can just keep 'em capped.

Wand of Knock lets you get through any door. You have Detect Magic as an at-will SLA for free, so you can spot magical traps, and you have a Dispel Magic (and even a Greater Dispel Magic) invocation, so getting through magical barriers shouldn't be too hard for you. Pick up a Rod of Cancellation to deal with Force effects.

Flee The Scene also gives you unlimited teleportation, to be able to bypass most mundane challenges easily.

Eldritch Glaive gives you the one-round damage output to drop anything in the Monster Manual. Doubly so if you go Hellfire route.

Wands will give you a 'utility belt' that will allow you to bypass guards, or eliminate them if you prefer.

Best of all, Warlock does have a 3/4 BAB class. So you can quite easily shiv the target to give them an 'obvious' killshot to examine. With Hideous Blow to make it a one-shot wonder. Follow up with Quicken SLA + Eldritch Glaive if that doesn't drop him.

Draz74
2011-06-23, 02:50 PM
Even better, changelings can get Able Learner, so you can just keep 'em capped.
Able Learner does not work that way. At least not without a one-level dip in a class with Hide and Move Silently as class skills.


Follow up with Quicken SLA + Eldritch Glaive if that doesn't drop him.

Can you Quicken Eldritch Glaive? I thought it was a full-round action to use, and that only Standard Action SLA's could be Quickened.

Amphetryon
2011-06-23, 02:54 PM
Can you Quicken Eldritch Glaive? I thought it was a full-round action to use, and that only Standard Action SLA's could be Quickened.
FWIW, the melee Warlock mini-guide agrees with you, if memory serves.

Essence_of_War
2011-06-23, 02:55 PM
Only things with an activation time of greater than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.

Since the attacks from Eldritch Glaive are part of the invocation, this can get realllllly silly :smallamused:

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-23, 03:52 PM
Able Learner does not work that way. At least not without a one-level dip in a class with Hide and Move Silently as class skills. So one-level dip in Rogue, which also lets you do the changling racial sub level to take 10 on most social skills...


Can you Quicken Eldritch Glaive? I thought it was a full-round action to use, and that only Standard Action SLA's could be Quickened.

You can't quicken anything that takes more than a full-round action. Glaive is a full-round action, so it isn't more than that. Ergo...

Besides, if you don't want to get that cheesy, if the HB doesn't drop him, he'll be weakened enough that a quickened vanilla EB will finish the job.

Grendus
2011-06-23, 04:24 PM
Hmm, for natural death the Telepath power Crisis of Life causes a heart attack on a failed save. If you can sneak in and hit him with it a few times, it will look natural, you just have to bring him down before raising the alarm. Dip a level of factotem in the warlock build (anybody else noticing Warlock and Binder can fit almost any character concept? It's unnerving, actually) and pump your Use Psionic Device check to cover "natural death".

You do need to get a few power stones of it cast by a higher level manifester though, depending on your target's hit dice. And they still have to fail the save, which is fairly hard unless it's a weak save and you catch them without their save bonuses up.

Draz74
2011-06-23, 06:35 PM
So one-level dip in Rogue, which also lets you do the changling racial sub level to take 10 on most social skills...

Yes, that works, but it seems like a rather important build element to actually mention, rather than letting people figure it out on their own. :smalltongue:


You can't quicken anything that takes more than a full-round action. Glaive is a full-round action, so it isn't more than that. Ergo...

Ah, good to know.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-23, 06:49 PM
Hmm, for natural death the Telepath power Crisis of Life causes a heart attack on a failed save. If you can sneak in and hit him with it a few times, it will look natural, you just have to bring him down before raising the alarm. Dip a level of factotem in the warlock build (anybody else noticing Warlock and Binder can fit almost any character concept? It's unnerving, actually) and pump your Use Psionic Device check to cover "natural death".

You do need to get a few power stones of it cast by a higher level manifester though, depending on your target's hit dice. And they still have to fail the save, which is fairly hard unless it's a weak save and you catch them without their save bonuses up.

If you want to play with psionics, then Death Urge is another way... he simply committed suicide.

Gullintanni
2011-06-23, 07:12 PM
Inspired by this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11272727&postcount=36), I say, challenge accepted!

The goal? A TWF Cleric Brawler that Worships Kord. Important character attributes:

- Must include Cleric levels
- Must fight primarily unarmed
- Must worship Kord
- Must include Two Weapon Fighting

Bonus points:
- Still capable of casting level 9 spells.
- No more than 1 Flaw.

En garde, Stormwind!

I'm thinking of a build that includes a CG-Cleric/Paladin of Freedom/Sacred Fist. Feat starvation will be a problem so dipping 2 levels of fighter is probably necessary.

JKTrickster
2011-06-23, 07:49 PM
Mmmm since I'm always a lazy person, why not?

I want to have a Knight-esque type of character, someone who stands for valor and justice, and has the power to back it up. He's primarily concerned for his friends, so he has to have some ability to take care of his allies. Since I am imagining him as a Knight of some kind, I would like him to be decked out in Full Armor, and primarily martial ability (spellcasting is fine, as long as its primarily buffs of some kind I suppose). Also, I would appreciate it if you could incorporate some mechanic that has an "honor code" of some kind. So that he can always say "I fight for justice and that empowers me - what do you fight for?" or something like that :smallbiggrin:

Now that is simple enough, really and my request isn't complicated.

Here's the kicker: I want him to be focused on Sword And Board fighting and I want him to be really good at it. I'm kind of hoping that the Shield will be used for more things than just Shield Bashing and actually end up a core part of his defenses. I don't really know the extent of how shields can be utilized though, so please surprise me. It can even be one of those exotic shields that I don't really know about.

And finally I want him to be able to take out a lot of punishment. I mean the whole nine yards - HP damage, spells that target saves, etc. So Mettle and Evasion would be awesome!

Also I would appreciate it if the build could start from rocking from low levels as well as high levels.

dextercorvia
2011-06-23, 07:52 PM
Inspired by this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11272727&postcount=36), I say, challenge accepted!

The goal? A TWF Cleric Brawler that Worships Kord. Important character attributes:

- Must include Cleric levels
- Must fight primarily unarmed
- Must worship Kord
- Must include Two Weapon Fighting

Bonus points:
- Still capable of casting level 9 spells.
- No more than 1 Flaw.

En garde, Stormwind!

I'm thinking of a build that includes a CG-Cleric/Paladin of Freedom/Sacred Fist. Feat starvation will be a problem so dipping 2 levels of fighter is probably necessary.

What exactly do you mean by Two Weapon and unarmed? Do you want him to use off hand attacks with monk weapons, or something?

Zonugal
2011-06-23, 08:01 PM
Mmmm since I'm always a lazy person, why not?

I want to have a Knight-esque type of character, someone who stands for valor and justice, and has the power to back it up. He's primarily concerned for his friends, so he has to have some ability to take care of his allies. Since I am imagining him as a Knight of some kind, I would like him to be decked out in Full Armor, and primarily martial ability (spellcasting is fine, as long as its primarily buffs of some kind I suppose). Also, I would appreciate it if you could incorporate some mechanic that has an "honor code" of some kind. So that he can always say "I fight for justice and that empowers me - what do you fight for?" or something like that :smallbiggrin:

Now that is simple enough, really and my request isn't complicated.

Here's the kicker: I want him to be focused on Sword And Board fighting and I want him to be really good at it. I'm kind of hoping that the Shield will be used for more things than just Shield Bashing and actually end up a core part of his defenses. I don't really know the extent of how shields can be utilized though, so please surprise me. It can even be one of those exotic shields that I don't really know about.

And finally I want him to be able to take out a lot of punishment. I mean the whole nine yards - HP damage, spells that target saves, etc. So Mettle and Evasion would be awesome!

Also I would appreciate it if the build could start from rocking from low levels as well as high levels.

This sounds like a pretty classical Human Knight 4/Crusader X? Another version that comes online perhaps a bitter quicker is Human Knight 2/Crusader 1/Knight 1/Crusader X.

Zaq
2011-06-23, 08:05 PM
Ironsoul Forgemasters make pretty rockin' shields. Each point of essentia you put in your shield gives you resist 5 against all five big elements (yes, including sonic). And it counts as a soulmeld, so you can use things like Expanded Soulmeld Capacity on it. Energy resistance of that caliber is pretty sweet.

dextercorvia
2011-06-23, 08:28 PM
Ironsoul Forgemasters make pretty rockin' shields. Each point of essentia you put in your shield gives you resist 5 against all five big elements (yes, including sonic). And it counts as a soulmeld, so you can use things like Expanded Soulmeld Capacity on it. Energy resistance of that caliber is pretty sweet.

Aren't they the ones that invest essentia into their armor for DR?

Veyr
2011-06-23, 09:46 PM
Also, if the weapon or shield itself has a property that allows you to invest Essentia in it (Soulbound, for instance), 1 Essentia point should count for both item properties and class features, allowing you to "double-dip".

The main thing with a tank in 3.5 is getting your opponents not to ignore you in favor of easier targets, especially mages, who tend to be far more threatening. Unfortunately, Test of Mettle is not as good as one would hope for that; it's limited, the DC will be too easy (especially if you multiclass out), etc. etc. Crusaders have some better options, but their control is "softer" (i.e. "you can attack someone else, but I'll make you regret it"), which ultimately may not be enough.

Something of a trip-lockdown build may be better. That's not to say, however, that Knight and Crusader aren't good classes for this: Test of Mettle doesn't quite work the way you want it to, but Bulwark of Defense does make it quite a bit harder to get past you. Add in the Island of Blades stance and Defensive Rebuke, and allies near you will be tough targets.

JKTrickster
2011-06-23, 10:02 PM
Veyr kind of summed up my concerns perfectly - there are only a few ways that I know of that would really classify as "tanking" and most of them aren't the most effective ones. It's kind of frustrating how Test of Mettle doesn't work the way you want it too.

I'm just wondering if you can find something unexpected, something that I haven't really explored. That was the main reason why I checked into this thread.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-06-23, 10:07 PM
Inspired by this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11272727&postcount=36), I say, challenge accepted!

The goal? A TWF Cleric Brawler that Worships Kord. Important character attributes:

- Must include Cleric levels
- Must fight primarily unarmed
- Must worship Kord
- Must include Two Weapon Fighting

Bonus points:
- Still capable of casting level 9 spells.
- No more than 1 Flaw.

En garde, Stormwind!

I'm thinking of a build that includes a CG-Cleric/Paladin of Freedom/Sacred Fist. Feat starvation will be a problem so dipping 2 levels of fighter is probably necessary.

Actually, you can do it with straight cleric.

Superior Unarmed Strike (ToB) works very well for this. TWF is a feat, of which you get several. Greater Mighty Wallop further increases your unarmed damage. Of course, you get Divine Power, so BAB is relatively unimportant, which means you can go Cloistered for Knowledge domain, combo that with Knowledge Devotion, and you have solid damage output and full Cleric casting.