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View Full Version : [Base 3.5]The Tendersoul [Showable, Peaches]



Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-25, 05:18 AM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_jOKm01FBqXU/R86bSJ0VEFI/AAAAAAAAAAU/3UbFDHVKto8/S220/%5BAnimePaper%5Dwallpapers_D-GrayMan_Arya3087%281d.JPG (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11312512#post11312512)
Voidsoul-----------------





The Tendersoul
http://i434.photobucket.com/albums/qq68/mishi-ko/Chii%20Chobits%20Cosplay/MINILOGOCHII.jpg
"My only wish is that everyone could be saved..." - Clairess the Tendersoul


A noble maiden, a peace loving young man, Passive old monks up high in they're temples. These are some examples of the Tendersoul. People who believe fighting and violence are leading the world to the hells on a silver platter. They can't stand the death, pain, and loss it brings. Tendersouls possess a rare thing; a Pure Heart, a desire to heal, help, and give service to those in need. The Goddess smiles upon them, and gives them the power to change the world not through violence, but through care and compassion. A Paladin may think to Smite evil, but the Tendersoul thinks to reach out and help the lost soul being smothered in darkness. To find that once bright light and make it shine in goodness once more. Few mortals, nay, few of any living creatures, have the love, care, and compassion needed to become a Tendersoul. But those that do, and seek to make the world a better place are given the power to heal those in need, and to walk the most fearsome of horrors, and stare evil in person not with a gaze of fury or vengeance, but of love, mercy, and sadness in the dept of how black they're soul may have become, even demons were once good before the angels split and became fey, celestials, and demons. The Tendersoul is one of the few hopes for humanity in a world where the first thought seems to be violence.

Adventures: A Tendersoul adventures, its simple as that. They wander, they listen for inspiration as to where they're needed to be. They travel often to sites of sadness, oppression, or disaster to help those in need. Some join groups of others who seek triumph over evil, but even so its hard on them to be with those who seek only to smite evil.

Characteristics: Righteous divine power protects the Tendersoul and gives her special powers. This mysterious power wards off harm, protects her from disease, lets her heal others or herself, and guards her heart against fear. A Tendersoul uses these powers to help others, healing wounds and curing diseases. Another power that each Tendersoul possesses is the ability to to turn evil when it threatens to overwhelm her, and perhaps the Tendersoul's most joyous ability is that to atone others of they're mistakes, and eventually convert evil to the loving arms of the goddess.

Alignment: Lawful Good. The Tendersoul isn't 'dedicated' to good, She desires it. She desires purity and happiness not just for herself, even especially not for herself, but for all those around her. They are one of the purest embodiments of what is Good.

Religion: Tendersouls may believe in any Lawful Good or even any good deity that doesn't demand things that go against they're morals. but these are usually only the Tendersouls who haven't yet found the Goddess. The Goddess is something rare, an Overdiety who's influence spans across vast planes and may well dip through into other seams of existence. But unlike others, she is a deity of care, love, and seeks to bring all souls from pain, suffering, and evil. She knows the value of subtle control, forcing anything scarcely helps anyone. She works through the few who hear her whisper from the light to inspire care into the world. She loves all, but does what she must. She accepts any with open arms, simply glad to have even ex-evil overlords back on the path of good.

Background: Becoming a Tendersoul isn't something to do, Its a way of life and Many to most Tendersouls have always been caring. They may have been that 'weird kid' you grew up with who cried when the cat broke its foot, or always hugged you when you were down, cheering you up and being there for you. Or maybe the kid you picked on, enjoyed seeing cry. but eventually, Tendersoul's see enlightenment, having heard the whispers of the Goddess she sinks into her power to heal, and walk through the darkest valleys of hell if not only to say Hi to an arch demon and ask if they're doing well.

Races: Any intelligent race can become a Tendersoul. Even demons or infernal creatures that had once had the light of a Tendersoul free them from they're evils. The Goddess loves all, it doesn't matter if your an elf, devil or gnome. All are loved, and all may become a Tendersoul regardless of race.

Other Classes: Tendersoul's share they're goddesses compassion. They care for all, they hate none. They often feel the best connection with Clerics, or other divine healers. They may travel with Paladins, but they are saddened by they're way of dealing with evil. They can enjoy the company of anyone really.

Role: Healer, Support. The Tendersoul walks the fields of death and chaos to bring light to all those that need it. They're chief role is to heal, protect, and convert those from evil to the path of light, and joy.

Game Rule Information

Abilities: Charisma is most important to the Tendersoul. They need not Strength, or Constitution nearly as much as Charisma. Charisma determines most things for the Tendersoul. Next comes in with Intelligence, and Wisdom to see clearly, to know and learn skills what must be done. Dexterity comes in at number two, for the ability to more easily dodge and act on the whispers of the goddess telling them to duck, dodge, or get out of the way of something.

Alignment: Lawful Good

Hit Die: d4

Class Skills: The Tendersoulís class skills are... Heal (Wis), Survival (Wis), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Knowledge: The Planes, Nobility & Royalty, Arcana, History (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Diplomacy (Cha), Use Magic Device (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Concentration (Con).

Skill Points at 1st Level: ( 4+ Int Modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+ Int Modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Sanctuary 3/day, Goddess's Gift, Aura of Good, Morality|6|3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Atonement 1/day, Blessed Touch|6|5|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|
+1|
+2|
+1|
+3|Sanctuary 4/day, Divine Health|6|5|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|
+2|
+2|
+1|
+4|Atonement 2/day, Goddess's Gift|6|5|4|-|-|-

5th|
+2|
+2|
+1|
+4|Sanctuary 5/day, Turn evil|6|5|4|2|-|-

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Atonement 3/day, Blessed Touch|6|5|4|4|-|-

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Sanctuary 6/day, Morality |6|5|4|4|2|-

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Atonement 4/day, Divine Word, Goddess's Gift|6|5|4|4|4|-

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Sanctuary At will|6|5|4|4|4|2

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Atonement 5/day, Faith Healing|6|5|4|4|4|4

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Sanctuaries Hold +3|6|5|4|4|4|4|2

12th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+8| Atonement At Will, Goddess's Gift|6|5|4|4|4|4|4

13th|
+6|
+4|
+4|
+8|Sanctuaries hold +4|6|5|4|4|4|4|4|2

14th|
+7|
+4|
+4|
+9|Atoning Sacrifice +1, Morality|6|5|4|4|4|4|4|4

15th|
+7|
+5|
+5|
+9|Sanctuaries Hold +5|6|5|4|4|4|4|4|4|2

16th|
+8|
+5|
+5|
+10|Atoning Sacrifice +2, Goddess's Gift|6|5|4|4|4|4|4|4|4

17th|
+8|
+5|
+5|
+10|Sanctuaries Hold +6|5|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|1

18th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+11|Atoning Sacrifice +3|6|5|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|2

19th|
+9|
+6|
+6|
+11|Sanctuary!|6|5|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|3

20th|
+10|
+6|
+6|
+12|I forgive You, Eternal Peace|6|5|4|4|4|4|4|4|4|4 [/table]

Class Features: All of the following are class features of the Tendersoul class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Tendersoul are proficient with no armor, shields, or any weapon.

Spells: A Tendersoul casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Tendersoul spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time so long as she's happy with her current load out. If she wishes to change her spell selection, she can spend an hour of prayer at Midday under the sun, or at least not in a man-made building thats not dedicated to the worship of the Goddess.

To learn or cast a spell, a Tendersoul must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Tendersoulís spell is 10 + the spell level + her Cha modifier.

A Tendersoul can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, as seen on the table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see page 8 of the Playerís Handbook).

Spells Known: A Tendersoul begins play knowing any spell in her spell list, and simply chooses her spell slots which remain as Spontaneous casting. As mentioned above, a midday ritual for an hour can be used to reset her spell selections.
The Spells listing in the above table are your effective spell slots. You can cast a number of spells per day from that spell level a number of times per day equal to x3 your Charisma modifier, Every five levels, the lowest non-At Will spell level becomes at will. At fifth level, they get they're 0 level Tendersoul spells at will. At ten, 1st level. At fifteenth, 2nd level. At twentieth, 3rd.

Spell List:

Orizons
Create Water
Cure Minor Wounds
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Guidance
Light
Mending
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic
Resistance
Virtue

First Level
Bless
Bless Water
Calm Animals
Charm Animal
Charm Person
Conviction (SpC)
Comprehend Languages
Cure Light Wounds
Deathwatch
Delay Disease (SpC)
Detect Chaos/Evil
Detect Undead
Endure Elements
Entropic Shield
Goodberry
Nightshield (SpC)
Protection from Chaos/Evil
Remove Fear
Resurgence (SpC)
Sanctuary
Shield of Faith
Sleep
Speak with Animals
Unseen Servant
Vigor, Lesser (SpC)

Second Level
Aid
Augury
Barkskin
Bear's Endurance
Bull's Strength
Calm Emotions
Close Wounds (SpC)
Consecrate
Cat's Grace
Cure Moderate Wounds
Delay Poison
Eagle's Splendor
Enthrall
Fox's Cunning
Gentle Repose
Healing Lorecall (SpC)
Make Whole
Owl's Wisdom
Protection from Negative Energy (SpC)
Remove Paralysis
Resist Energy
Restoration, Lesser
Shield Other
Silence
Status
Wood Shape
Zone of Truth

Third Level
Aid, Mass (SpC)
Continual Flame
Conviction, Mass (SpC)
Create Food and Water
Cure Serious Wounds
Daylight
Deep Slumber
Dispel Magic
Helping Hand
Invisibility Purge
Locate Object
Magic Circle vs. Chaos/Evil
Magic Vestment
Plant Growth (enrichment function only)
Prayer
Protection from Energy
Quench
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Curse
Remove Disease
Resist Energy, Mass (SpC)
Speak with Plants
Stone Shape
Tiny Hut
Vigor (SpC)
Vigor, Mass Lesser (SpC)
Visage of the Deity, Lesser (SpC)
Water Breathing
Water Walk

Fourth Level
Charm Monster
Cure Critical Wounds
Death Ward
Delay Death (SpC)
Discern Lies
Dismissal
Divination
Freedom of Movement
Imbue with Spell Ability
Neutralize Poison
Panacea (SpC)
Positive Energy Aura (SpC)
Recitation (SpC)
Resistance, Greater (SpC)
Restoration
Sending
Secure Shelter
Sheltered Vitality (SpC)
Shield of Faith, Mass (SpC)
Spell Immunity
Tongues

Fifth Level
Atonement
Break Enchantment
Commune
Commune with Nature
Cure Light Wounds, Mass
Dispel Chaos/Evil
Divine Agility (SpC)
Hallow
Life's Grace (SpC)
Raise Dead
Revivify (SpC)
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC)
Sanctuary, Mass (SpC)
Scrying
Spell Resistance
Symbol of Sleep
True Seeing
Vigor, Greater (SpC)
Zone of Revelation (SpC)

Sixth Level
Banishment
Bull's Strength, Mass
Cat's Grace, Mass
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass
Dispel Magic, Greater
Eagle's Splendor, Mass
Energy Immunity (SpC)
Find the Path
Fox's Cunning, Mass
Heal
Heroes' Feast
Owl's Wisdom, Mass
Stone Tell
Resistance, Superior (SpC)
Revive Outsider (SpC)
Vigorous Circle (SpC)
Visage of the Deity (SpC)

Seventh Level
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass
Dictum (banishment function only)
Fortunate Fate (SpC)
Hiss of Sleep (SpC)
Holy Word (banishment function only)
Mage's Magnificent Manson
Refuge
Regenerate
Restoration, Greater
Restoration, Mass (SpC)
Resurrection
Scrying, Greater
Spell Resistance, Mass (SpC)

Eighth Level
Antimagic Field
Charm Monster, Mass
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
Death Ward, Mass (SpC)
Discern Location
Holy Aura
Shield of Law
Spell Immunity, Greater

Ninth Level
Foresight
Heal, Mass
Miracle (only for effects that heal, protect, or improve others)
Sympathy
True Resurrection
Visage of the Deity, Greater (SpC)


Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a Tendersoulís aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her Tendersoul level, just like the aura of a cleric of a good deity.

Detect Evil (Su): A will, a Tendersoul can use detect evil, as the spell.

Goddess's Gift (Ex): The Goddess grants you a potent gift. You add you Charisma modifier as Insight bonus to AC, as untyped bonus to Saves, It can replace Constitution for determining Concentration and HP. If you wear armor, this changes to half bonus to saves, and no AC bonus.
4: Your considered to have the Uncanny Dodge and Evasion abitties.
8: Your considered to have the Mettle ability and You are never surprised.
12: Your considered to have the Improved Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion feats.
16:You gain half your Charisma modifier again (meaning x1.5 cha) to AC, Saves and HP. This changes to no further bonus if you wear armor. You now have a constant Augury like effect that only gives "woe" warnings on particularly bad choices.

Sanctuary (Sp): A Tendersoul can perform Sanctuary at listed times per day, becoming at will at level 9. The DC however is 10+1/2 class levels +cha mod.
Sanctuaries Hold: After becoming At Will, Sanctuary becomes more powerful. They add the listed bonus to Caster Level and for the Sanctuary save DC.
Sanctuary!: Your sanctuary does not allow Spell Resistance or any Saves. Those with Immunity to Sanctuary instead have a 50% chance of ignoring it that round.

Blessed Touch (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a Tendersoul with a Charisma score of 11 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points equal to her Tendersoul level + her Charisma bonus x10. A Tendersoul may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesnít have to use it all at once. At 6th level and higher, whenever a Tendersoul uses her Blessed Touch, it removes any diseases or poisons the target may be suffering from. The Tendersoul need not spend any of her daily healing in order to rid any disease or poison from the target, as if she had cast remove disease or neutralize poison as the spells. Using Blessed Touch is a free action that can never be used more then once a round.

Atonement (Ex): A Tendersoul can use Atonement, as the spell, a number of times per day as listed on the table becoming At Will at level 12. They can use it to redeem any being of good or neutral deities back to they're path, or to convert people to the Tendersoul's religion.
Atoning Sacrifice: The Tendersoul can sacrifice the given amount listed on the table as constitution damage to perform a gift for the Atoning creature. at +1, this is a Miracle effect mimicking any spell of level 4 and lower at half the XP cost of a lesser Miracle. at +2 this is a Miracle effect mimicking any spell of level 6 and lower like lesser Miracle. at +3 this is any spell of 8 and lower as Miracle. XP costs for these Miracles are shared between the Tendersoul, the Atoning creature, and The Goddess herself. effectively diving the cost by three.
I forgive You: Atonement is now usable as a free action, and it now delves deep down into the subconscious so if the target was unwilling, it slowly changes they're mindset, giving them a small voice or conscience that guides them to the path of Lawful good. Will save DC 10+ 1/2Tendersoul level + Cha mod when ever they will do an evil act, or same, but +1/4th Tendersoul level when ever they would do a chaotic action. Failure means they give into the sweet, loving voice guiding them towards good and simply do not perform the action. Likewise, they make a save when presented to do good, failure means they preform the good action (they can forfeit the save to do it anyway) Lasts until they beat the will save three times. Every two failed will saves adds 1 more to the number needed to be free of the voice. Every Six failed saves, they change alignment to the next closest toward good. once in good, these become changes towards the next closest toward Lawful good.


Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a Tendersoul gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).

Turn Evil (Su): At 5th level, a Tendersoul gains the ability to turn [evil] creatures as a good cleric turns undead. However, you cannot inflict actual harm in doing so, they simply are Turned. However because of this limitation (Despite bing a broad group) they gain + 1/4 class levels to the attempt. A Tendersoul may use Turn Evil at will, but only once against a creature per day. If an evil creature has already been turned that day, or saved against it, they are not subject to it again for 24 hours.

Divine Word (Su): Your words of love, peace, and happiness effects up to Class levels x2 HD of creatures starting with the lowest. If all are same, start with the closest.
The Divine Word has the following effects based on Alignment.
Evil creature: Frightened 1d4 rounds
Chaotic: Stunned 1d4 rounds
Neutral: dazed 1d6 rounds
Lawful: Dazzled 1d8 rounds (but not lawful good)
Good: Inspired: +4 moral bonus to saves, skill checks, and armor class for 1d10 rounds.
This is a will save 15+Cha mod.

Faith Healing (Ex): Your healing powers heal twice as much HP on Lawful Good creatures, x1.5 on neutral creatures.

Eternal Peace (Su): At 20th level a Tendersoul transcends the mortal coil and becomes something otherworldly and divine. Her type changes to Kindled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203992). However, she is not affected by spells that specifically target humanoids, such as hold person. Additionally, the Tendersoul gains fast healing 10 (Overlaps the Kindled Fast healing 1) and her damage reduction changes to DR 20/-.
In addition, the Tendersoul cannot die if she does not choose to. She still feels pain normally, and can be knocked unconscious. If put below -9 hp, she remains unconscious until a 5 rounds per point of damage over -9. Once that time passes, she starts Fast Healing as normal, and wakes up once back to 1+ hp. This overlaps the Kindled ability to do essentially the same, but is always functional unless killed in an unhallowed area, then buried in desecrated ground (Can be recovered, but permanently dead if a month has passed while buried)
She will never die of old age, as normal for a Kindled, but she can choose if she wishes to be with the goddess, forfeiting the moral world to join the goddess in a realm of light and eternal life. She may come back sometimes, as a messenger of the goddess, or to carry out simple orders as Angels do for some deities.

Morality: A Tendersoul must be of lawful good alignment and looses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, each Tendersoul must follow the Tendersoul's morals.

A Tendersoul must:


Always uphold just laws and strive for the greater good of the world.
Never act falsely.
Always seek attempt to convert the wicked and vile and those who threaten innocent folk so that they may be saved from eternal torment in the hells.
Always help those in a moment of need, so long ad it doesn't directly lead to harm to the innocent.
Never intentionally kill a sentient creature.
Always respect legitimate authority. Do not attempt to rebel against unjust rule until such a time as your goddess commands it, but do not actively help such rule if possible.


If a Tendersoul breaks one of these codes, she loses her ability to cast spells and access to all of her supernatural, spell-like, and extraordinary class abilities for the remainder of the day, unless she atones (see the atonement spell description, page 201 of the Playerís Handbook). If a Tendersoul continues to break the code, she risks permanently losing access to her Tendersoul abilities.

In addition she gains Sacred Vow at level 1, Vow of Nonviolence at level seven, and Vow of Peace at level fourteen. Theres are completely optional, consider them Bonus Feat slots usable only for those features.


Ex-Tendersoul: A Tendersoul who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all Tendersoul spells and abilities. She may not progress any farther in levels as a Tendersoul. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for his violations (see the atonement spell description, page 201 of the Playerís Handbook), as appropriate.

A Tender Soul can never do evil, or harm. Even under the name of another class, Otherwise they can multiclass just fine.

Variant:

http://wiki.erepublik.com/images/thumb/2/2e/Star.png/40px-Star.png
Top 5
The Pureheart

To make a more offensive, Less Defensive Tendersoul dubbed the Pureheart; alter the following.
Hit die: d8
(and of course alter Morality to read: Do all they can to prevent the most loss of innocent life from any side of conflict.)

Alternate Class Features for the Pureheart:

Spellcasting:
The Pureheart gets one spell of her choosing from the Sor/Wiz, or Cleric spell lists, per spell level.

Goddess's Gift (Ex): The Goddess grants you a potent gift. You add you Charisma modifier as Insight bonus to AC, and It can replace Constitution for determining Concentration. If you wear armor, this gives half Cha modifier to AC.
4: Your considered to have the and Evasion abitties.
8: Your considered to have the Mettle ability.
12: Your considered to have the Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion abilities.
16: You now have a constant Augury like effect that only gives "woe" warnings on particularly bad choices.

Sanctuary (Sp): A Pureheart can perform Sanctuary at listed times per day, becoming at will at level 9. The DC however is 10+1/2 class levels +cha mod.
Sanctuaries Hold: After becoming At Will, Sanctuary becomes more powerful. They add the listed bonus to Caster Level and for the Sanctuary save DC.
Sanctuary!: Sanctuary increases as normal for Sanctuaries Hold, but now Those with Immunity to Sanctuary instead have a 50% chance of ignoring it that round.

Eternal Peace (Su): At 20th level a Pureheart transcends the mortal coil and becomes something otherworldly and divine. Her type changes to Kindled. However, she is not affected by spells that specifically target humanoids, such as hold person. Additionally, the Pureheart gains fast healing 10 (Overlaps the Kindled Fast healing 1), She says conscious until -10, where she dies as normal for a Kindled, and her damage reduction changes to DR 15/+5.
In addition, She will never die of old age, as normal for a Kindled, but she can choose if she wishes to be with the goddess, forfeiting the moral world to join the goddess in a realm of light and eternal life. She may come back sometimes, as a messenger of the goddess, or to carry out simple orders as Angels do for some deities.

They do not gain any special offensive moves, but at DM's rule they can allow the Pureheart to take up offensive Cleric, and/or Druid spells.

Merk
2011-06-25, 07:26 AM
What business does a peace-oriented class with no weapon/armor proficiencies have with full BAB?

The Goddess' Gift abilities need to be staggered, limited, or delayed somehow, as currently this is too good of a 1-level dip for a Charisma-based character.

Veklim
2011-06-25, 08:42 AM
What business does a peace-oriented class with no weapon/armor proficiencies have with full BAB?Good question, I'd understand entirely if any weapon or attack made by the class was considered merciful (i.e. always non-lethal, but perhaps also effective vs. creatures immune to such normally?), but it also says they function best as essentially pacifists and they have no proficiencies. A level in paladin would straighten that out for sure, let us not forget also that Ghandi started out as a freedom fighter, as did Mandela... Perhaps a martial background is fine just as long as you only ever defend yourself...? Give them the ability to only use attacks as parrys? Allow them quarterstaff and shortstaff for this purpose...


The Goddess' Gift abilities need to be staggered, limited, or delayed somehow, as currently this is too good of a 1-level dip for a Charisma-based character.Agreed to a certain extent, except they still have to do all this:


Always uphold just laws and strive for the greater good of the world.
Never act falsely.
Always seek attempt to convert the wicked and vile and those who threaten innocent folk so that they may be saved from eternal torment in the hells.
Always help those in a moment of need, so long ad it doesn't directly lead to harm to the innocent.
Never intentionally kill a sentient creature.
Always respect legitimate authority. Do not attempt to rebel against unjust rule until such a time as your goddess commands it, but do not actively help such rule if possible.
...or lose the abilities and the spells. Actually a pretty good incentive to stick with it instead of dipping if you ask me.

@Cipher
Needs a little working on the spelling/grammar/making any sense at all :smalltongue: ...but I realise half of this was likely written in a psuedo-conscious stupor, as is your way :smallwink:
All that aside, the following need some clarification or rethinking before I really add anything constructive, but;

Spells known, second paragraph is ambiguous.

Goddess' Gift, Merk has a point with this, consider splitting up the uncanny dodge and evasion abilities to different levels, perhaps 1st giving the Cha swap-outs and UD, 4th for evasion (which should probably be mettle instead IMHO), 7th for perhaps mettle...? (they should REALLY have mettle more than evasion, look at the saves dude...), then 10th for the imp. UD. They'd get imp. evasion at 13th following this same logic...

Atonement is...incredibly powerful. Consider toning back significantly in my mind, but perhaps others would disagree. Either way, seems ripe for abuse. I do rather like the idea though, and I forgive you is actually really rather cool. You may like to check out my Sacred Scourge (shameless plug, link below!) for the Miraculous Reversal ability, it might actually be vaguely pertinent to this class.

Divine Word could easily dazzle, daze or stun an ally as well as give a morale bonus, was this deliberate?

That's about it for now...except I WANNA SEE THE SPELL LIST!!!!
I think a lot of my opinion of this class will be based upon that, and the clarification of certain stuff mentioned above but it's looking very nice for now...:smallbiggrin:

NeoSeraphi
2011-06-25, 10:06 AM
The chassis is a bit...weak. I mean, not that there's anything wrong with that, but you've got a noble, blessed character with only d4 HD, and that doesn't fit the precedents. I can't think of a single divine caster with d4 HD. Even the archivist had d6 (Cleric, druid, ranger and favored soul have d8, paladin has d10)

Also, no class with full BAB has had d4 HD. (I could be wrong. Someone tell me if I'm wrong because I really want to see that)

Sanctuary at will is very helpful for the class, as is the ability to turn evil creatures. Though you didn't specify how often. A cleric gets it 3+Cha mod times per day, but you seem to be giving her all these at will class abilities so it might be at will huh?

The concept is interesting, the perfect entrance to the Apostle of Peace class from BoED, and indeed, you might consider giving her Vow of Nonviolence/Vow of Peace as bonus feats, since they fit the character so well and she has to be lawful good anyway.

jiriku
2011-06-25, 12:34 PM
This is a very stylishly constructed class. I really like how the abilities integrate so consistently with the theme of the class, even though they run across a very broad spectrum of function.

Stylistically, I also am concerned about the full base attack bonus. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but it seems out of place. The strong Fortitude save also seems odd for a peace-loving, pacifistic class that doesn't stress martial prowess, physical toughness, or athletic ability.

If I interpret you correctly, you're using the spirit shaman's spell preparation mechanic. Kudos! That mechanic is a creative idea that hasn't gotten enough press, IMO.

I am very concerned to see the save DCs for the tendersoul's spells using 15+ spell level + Cha modifier. A 5-point bonus to save DCs is a dramatic benefit, and I think it's large enough to unbalance the class.

Likewise, Goddess' Gift will cause you problems. 2x Charisma to AC and saves on a chassis that's extremely Charisma-SAD, stacking with darn near everything else, will easily generate +20 or more to both stats, resulting in situations where the tendersoul is 95% immune to anything balanced against the rest of the party and the party is 95% vulnerable to anything balanced against the tendersoul. Combined with Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, this means that the tendersoul is essentially bulletproof against anything that requires an attack roll or allows a saving throw.

I'll second the concern that Atoning Sacrifice is ripe for abuse. Spontaneous casting of almost any spell on the cleric list with greatly reduced XP costs means that whenever the situation gets difficult, the tendersoul will always have and use the correct spell to solve the problem. This kind of universal hypercompetence is what's bad about Tier 1 classes and I think you'd do well not to risk it.

I like the boost you've given to Blessed Touch over effects like Lay on Hands. LoH was always to ineffective to be more than window dressing, IMO. However, I'm concerned about the free action activation cost. A free cure+neutralize poison+remove disease every round significantly explodes the action economy, and the touch range isn't much of a restriction since the tendersoul is pretty much immune to combat and can move about the battlefield with impunity.

Sanctuary! also concerns me. The ability to completely ignore most of your opponents, even those who've gone to the trouble of gaining immunity to sanctuary, is an amazing defense, especially when piled on top of 2x Charisma to AC and saves, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and probable VoP bonuses.

Eternal Peace just takes Sanctuary! to the next level. Now anyone who by some miracle is allowed to attack you and through good fortune actually manages to hit will find their damage soaked or regenerated away (assuming the tendersoul doesn't bother to heal herself, which she does better than any other class). At least 20th level fixes the balance problem inherent in Goddess' Gift by giving 2x Charisma to the entire party's AC and saves (!!!).

My final impression of this class is that you've sort of become a victim of your own success. You set out to create a peace-loving, well-defended support character who can function well in a party without needing to kill opponents, but you've done the job so well that a tendersoul is essentially immune to danger. Unless the spell list is complete junk, this class will be more powerful than the most powerful of Tier 1 classes.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-25, 12:39 PM
*yawn*



What business does a peace-oriented class with no weapon/armor proficiencies have with full BAB?

Oversight, it was stuck from the template I copied (Coding the table yourself is a pain), I was quite sleepy at the time.


The Goddess' Gift abilities need to be staggered, limited, or delayed somehow, as currently this is too good of a 1-level dip for a Charisma-based character.
yea... everyone always seems to say that with my stuffz but:


Agreed to a certain extent, except they still have to do all this:


...or lose the abilities and the spells. Actually a pretty good incentive to stick with it instead of dipping if you ask me.

This^


Good question, I'd understand entirely if any weapon or attack made by the class was considered merciful (i.e. always non-lethal, but perhaps also effective vs. creatures immune to such normally?), but it also says they function best as essentially pacifists and they have no proficiencies. A level in paladin would straighten that out for sure, let us not forget also that Ghandi started out as a freedom fighter, as did Mandela... Perhaps a martial background is fine just as long as you only ever defend yourself...? Give them the ability to only use attacks as parrys? Allow them quarterstaff and shortstaff for this purpose...

As above... I don't intend for them to even be able to harm others, As in eternal peace, any offensive action halts your Immunity to damage. The Evasion/Uncanny dodge are there to keep them up with everyone else, as they will not be having any armor/weapon aid.



@Cipher
Needs a little working on the spelling/grammar/making any sense at all :smalltongue: ...but I realise half of this was likely written in a psuedo-conscious stupor, as is your way :smallwink:
All that aside, the following need some clarification or rethinking before I really add anything constructive, but;

Spells known, second paragraph is ambiguous.

Goddess' Gift, Merk has a point with this, consider splitting up the uncanny dodge and evasion abilities to different levels, perhaps 1st giving the Cha swap-outs and UD, 4th for evasion (which should probably be mettle instead IMHO), 7th for perhaps mettle...? (they should REALLY have mettle more than evasion, look at the saves dude...), then 10th for the imp. UD. They'd get imp. evasion at 13th following this same logic...

I didn't know of mettal until I just now googled it. and I don't see an instead. I see an In addition :)
But yea... fine, I'll Split the Gift up.


Atonement is...incredibly powerful. Consider toning back significantly in my mind, but perhaps others would disagree. Either way, seems ripe for abuse. I do rather like the idea though, and I forgive you is actually really rather cool. You may like to check out my Sacred Scourge (shameless plug, link below!) for the Miraculous Reversal ability, it might actually be vaguely pertinent to this class.

You mean the Atoning Sacrifice? If players abuse it they are obviously not the right players for this class and are playing horribly, a Tendersoul would never abuse they're gifts thus making light of the Goddess's favor.


Divine Word could easily dazzle, daze or stun an ally as well as give a morale bonus, was this deliberate?

yep. The confusion and mixed feelings non lawful good characters feel when hearing the words of love the goddess has for all the living is represented pretty all-right. could use a second look-at on my part.


That's about it for now...except I WANNA SEE THE SPELL LIST!!!!
I think a lot of my opinion of this class will be based upon that, and the clarification of certain stuff mentioned above but it's looking very nice for now...:smallbiggrin:
Ye'p, I'll get to that soon.

The chassis is a bit...weak. I mean, not that there's anything wrong with that, but you've got a noble, blessed character with only d4 HD, and that doesn't fit the precedents. I can't think of a single divine caster with d4 HD. Even the archivist had d6 (Cleric, druid, ranger and favored soul have d8, paladin has d10)

They also cast sanctuary easily, they're not supposed to be fighting, they have the Gift to make it so they don't get hurt in the first place.


Sanctuary at will is very helpful for the class, as is the ability to turn evil creatures. Though you didn't specify how often. A cleric gets it 3+Cha mod times per day, but you seem to be giving her all these at will class abilities so it might be at will huh?

fix'n.


The concept is interesting, the perfect entrance to the Apostle of Peace class from BoED, and indeed, you might consider giving her Vow of Nonviolence/Vow of Peace as bonus feats, since they fit the character so well and she has to be lawful good anyway.
*googles*
*adding*

SamBurke
2011-06-25, 12:48 PM
Oh man, this is awesome. Going to use this in a future campaign, for sure. Unfortunately not useable for any of my characters, because this is great, fluff and crunchwise. Perhaps a little over-powerful, but, with that low of HD and the inability to hurt ANYTHING it makes sense.

As to the spell list, the Cleric list makes a whole heap of sense. Unfortunately, half of paladin spells have to do with combat (and the stink so hard anyway... GAH), so that's not too usable.

BTW, could you make a single post with links to all of your homebrew? It'll be easier for followers (AKA, me) to bookmark and find things again.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-25, 12:51 PM
This is a very stylishly constructed class. I really like how the abilities integrate so consistently with the theme of the class, even though they run across a very broad spectrum of function.

thanks.


Stylistically, I also am concerned about the full base attack bonus. There's nothing inherently wrong with it, but it seems out of place. The strong Fortitude save also seems odd for a peace-loving, pacifistic class that doesn't stress martial prowess, physical toughness, or athletic ability.

Oversights, I didn't actually add those they were already there, I was quite tired and left it unfinished, but showable before I went to bed last night.


If I interpret you correctly, you're using the spirit shaman's spell preparation mechanic. Kudos! That mechanic is a creative idea that hasn't gotten enough press, IMO.

I am very concerned to see the save DCs for the tendersoul's spells using 15+ spell level + Cha modifier. A 5-point bonus to save DCs is a dramatic benefit, and I think it's large enough to unbalance the class.

It will be fine once I y'alls see the spell list, methinks.


Likewise, Goddess' Gift will cause you problems. 2x Charisma to AC and saves on a chassis that's extremely Charisma-SAD, stacking with darn near everything else, will easily generate +20 or more to both stats, resulting in situations where the tendersoul is 95% immune to anything balanced against the rest of the party and the party is 95% vulnerable to anything balanced against the tendersoul. Combined with Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, this means that the tendersoul is essentially bulletproof against anything that requires an attack roll or allows a saving throw.

as intended. The Tendersoul fears not for her own life, but seeks to give aid to others in perfect selflessness, as a result the goddess smiles upon them letting them walk the battlefields unharmed (usually) to aid the dying and the injured.


I'll second the concern that Atoning Sacrifice is ripe for abuse. Spontaneous casting of almost any spell on the cleric list with greatly reduced XP costs means that whenever the situation gets difficult, the tendersoul will always have and use the correct spell to solve the problem. This kind of universal hypercompetence is what's bad about Tier 1 classes and I think you'd do well not to risk it.

They're taking ability damage for it, and its only with the Atonement, meaning as someone converts they get a miracle.


I like the boost you've given to Blessed Touch over effects like Lay on Hands. LoH was always to ineffective to be more than window dressing, IMO. However, I'm concerned about the free action activation cost. A free cure+neutralize poison+remove disease every round significantly explodes the action economy, and the touch range isn't much of a restriction since the tendersoul is pretty much immune to combat and can move about the battlefield with impunity.

Well, I intended them to be able to purify others with a touch, Disease, sicknesses, and poisons flee the purity of the tender soul. I can swap out the HP cure pool for daily uses if you like.


Sanctuary! also concerns me. The ability to completely ignore most of your opponents, even those who've gone to the trouble of gaining immunity to sanctuary, is an amazing defense, especially when piled on top of 2x Charisma to AC and saves, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and probable VoP bonuses.

:/ . . .


Eternal Peace just takes Sanctuary! to the next level.

As intended :P

Now anyone who by some miracle is allowed to attack you and through good fortune actually manages to hit will find their damage soaked or regenerated away (assuming the tendersoul doesn't bother to heal herself, which she does better than any other class). At least 20th level fixes the balance problem inherent in Goddess' Gift by giving 2x Charisma to the entire party's AC and saves (!!!).

Hm Tendersoul being like that is intendeed but I should remove the huge party bonuses.


My final impression of this class is that you've sort of become a victim of your own success. You set out to create a peace-loving, well-defended support character who can function well in a party without needing to kill opponents, but you've done the job so well that a tendersoul is essentially immune to danger. Unless the spell list is complete junk, this class will be more powerful than the most powerful of Tier 1 classes.
:/

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-25, 12:52 PM
Oh man, this is awesome. Going to use this in a future campaign, for sure. Unfortunately not useable for any of my characters, because this is great, fluff and crunchwise. Perhaps a little over-powerful, but, with that low of HD and the inability to hurt ANYTHING it makes sense.

As to the spell list, the Cleric list makes a whole heap of sense. Unfortunately, half of paladin spells have to do with combat (and the stink so hard anyway... GAH), so that's not too usable.

BTW, could you make a single post with links to all of your homebrew? It'll be easier for followers (AKA, me) to bookmark and find things again.

I intend to use much of the Cleric list, as well as some Druid and Bard spells meshed together. may sound weird but it should be good to go once its done.


Its in my sig. However there are one or two floating around that I haven't added.

SamBurke
2011-06-25, 01:07 PM
The Tender Soul isn't on there.

As to it being over-powered, here's the thing Role-play wise:
The thing is designed to be a Clara Barton. Floating over all obstacles, healing anyone and everyone (possibly add something about needing to heal enemies? Just a suggestion.) without needing to worry about danger.

I do agree that the cleric spell list is POWERFUL, and would definitely shoot this into the Tier 1 area, possibly much higher. But if I were a DM who had a player request this, I'd say yes in a heartbeat. The story and roleplay potential is just too good.

That said, I do think that you need to rethink the spells, they're the one addition that might unbalance things. With it, they're probably Tier 0.5, without it, they're about 2ish, and still able to do their core functions plus a few other things.


ALSO: :smallredface: Man, I love this. I'd love, in fact, to help you write some fluff... if you need it. I understand if you want to do it though.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-25, 02:00 PM
There. I think thats better. I feel like I'm forgetting something though...
Didn't add any druid/bard abilities, spell list looks big enough without them. but I may skim a few alternate spells to throw in eventually.

Quellian-dyrae
2011-06-25, 02:59 PM
Long-winded Point by Point Analysis:



Spells: A Tendersoul casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Tendersoul spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time so long as she's happy with her current load out. If she wishes to change her spell selection, she can spend an hour of prayer at Midday under the sun, or at least not in a man-made building thats not dedicated to the worship of the Goddess.

To learn or cast a spell, a Tendersoul must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Tendersoulís spell is 15 + the spell level + her Cha modifier.

A Tendersoul can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, as seen on the table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see page 8 of the Playerís Handbook).

Spells Known: A Tendersoul begins play knowing any spell in her spell list, and simply chooses her spell slots which remain as Spontaneous casting. As mentioned above, a midday ritual for an hour can be used to reset her spell selections.

The Spells listing in the above table are your effective spell slots. You can cast a number of spells per day from that spell level a number of times per day equal to x3 your Charisma modifier.

I'm...very confused about how the spells work. The lines in bold are the most confusing for me. Part of it sounds like Spirit Shaman...part like Warmage...and then there's the 3 * Cha mod thing that I just don't get.

I also agree that the DC starting at 15 is too good. You still have spells like Hold Person, Command and Greater Command, and a few other spells that can ruin someone's day on a failed save. It's substantial offensive combat efficiency, pure and simple.

I'm also kind of wondering what Divine Favor, Righteous Might, Divine Power (!!), and Contagion (!!!???!!!) are doing on the spell list.


Goddess's Gift (Ex): The Goddess grants you a potent gift. You add you Charisma modifier as Insight bonus to AC, as untyped bonus to Saves, It can replace Constitution for determining Concentration and HP.
4: Your considered to have the Uncanny Dodge and Evasion abitties.
8: Your considered to have the Mettle ability and You are never surprised.
12: Your considered to have the Improved Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion feats.
16:You gain Twice your Charisma modifier to AC, Saves and HP. You now have a constant Augury like effect that only gives "woe" warnings on particularly bad choices.

Yeah, this looks solid until you get to the doubled Cha. That really is just a massively powerful defense. I know a big point of the class is strong defenses, but with its spells and abilities, this class is far from useless in a combat scenario. If you want them to be a bit more resilient than single Cha gets them, I'd give them light armor proficiency, shield proficiency, a higher HD, and good saves across the board (favored souls get it, after all). Also, you may want to specify these boosts don't stack with similar ones, and maybe that the AC boost is lost in armor (or non-light armor). Otherwise, you know, fighter, monk, and paladin dips. :smalleek:


Sanctuary (Sp): A Tendersoul can perform Sanctuary at listed times per day, becoming at will at level 9.
Sanctuaries Hold: After becoming At Will, Sanctuary becomes more powerful. They add the listed bonus to Caster Level and for the Sanctuary save DC.
Sanctuary!: Your sanctuary does not allow Spell Resistance or any Saves. Those with Immunity to Sanctuary instead have a 50% chance of ignoring it that round.

You might want to make the base DC of the Sanctuary 10 + 1/2 level + Cha mod, rather than using the typical DC of 11 + Cha mod for a spell-like of a first level spell. Sanctuary! is indeed pretty strong, but I think it's okay. It can still be dispelled and gotten around with area and effect spells.


Blessed Touch (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a Tendersoul with a Charisma score of 11 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points equal to her Tendersoul level x 4 her Charisma bonus. A Tendersoul may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesnít have to use it all at once. At 6th level and higher, whenever a Tendersoul uses her Blessed Touch, it removes any diseases or poisons the target may be suffering from. The Tendersoul need not spend any of her daily healing in order to rid any disease or poison from the target, as if she had cast remove disease or neutralize poison as the spells. Using Blessed Touch is a free action that can never be used more then once a round.

Free action healing gives this class an awesome combat role. I like it. Especially nice since you can drop a cure as standard and use this healing to top it off. Quick question, is this supposed to be level * 4 * Cha, or is the 4 an artifact that was supposed to be replaced by Cha? I'm assuming the former?



Atoning Sacrifice: The Tendersoul can sacrifice the given amount listed on the table as constitution damage to perform a gift for the Atoning creature. at +1, this is a Miracle effect mimicking any spell of level 4 and lower at half the XP cost of a lesser Miracle. at +2 this is a Miracle effect mimicking any spell of level 6 and lower like lesser Miracle. at +3 this is any spell of 8 and lower as Miracle. XP costs for these Miracles are shared between the Tendersoul, the Atoning creature, and The Goddess herself. effectively diving the cost by three.


This is really strong. Even removing overtly deadly spells, this provides massive versatility. At an absolute minimum, you should specify that the Con damage can't be healed. Otherwise, you basically get a minor-to-not-so-minor miracle at the cost of a level 2 slot (Lesser Restoration). Even then, it's really strong. Souping up the Con damage, adding a 1/day limit, or something to tone it down is, I think, necessary. Also, Miracle itself allows different spell levels depending on the spell list...how does this work with such spells?


I forgive You: Atonement is now usable as a free action, and it now delves deep down into the subconscious so if the target was unwilling, it slowly changes they're mindset, giving them a small voice or conscience that guides them to the path of Lawful good. Will save DC 10+ 1/2Tendersoul level + Cha mod when ever they will do an evil act, or same, but +1/4th Tendersoul level when ever they would do a chaotic action. Failure means they give into the sweet, loving voice guiding them towards good. Lasts until they beat the will save three times. Every two failed will saves adds 1 more to the number needed to be free of the voice. Every Six failed saves, they change alignment to the next closest toward good. once in good, these become changes towards the next closest toward Lawful good.

In some ways, I really like this ability. Others not so much. I love the idea of it forcing a save every time they perform an evil action. I would, however, define what "giving into" the voice means (I'd say lose the action and become dazed for a round or something). I'd also remove the actual alignment changing, shifting away from the "holy mindrape" as a certain BoED spell is often called and just making it really, really hard to do anything evil until they choose to atone.


Turn Evil (Su): At 5th level, a Tendersoul gains the ability to turn [evil] creatures as a good cleric turns undead. However, you cannot inflict actual harm in doing so, they simply are Turned. However because of this limitation (Despite bing a broad group) they gain + 1/4 class levels to the attempt. A Tendersoul may use Turn Evil at will, but only once against a creature per day. If an evil creature has already been turned that day, or saved against it, they are not subject to it again for 24 hours.

The [evil] confuses me a bit. That's usually used to designate creatures that actually have the Evil Subtype. The rest of the ability suggests it works on evil creatures in general, which I assume is the intention. It's cool, but it's also a powerful multi-target save-or-lose.


Divine Word (Su): Your words of love, peace, and happiness effects up to Class levels x2 HD of creatures starting with the lowest. If all are same, start with the closest.
The Divine Word has the following effects based on Alignment.
Evil creature: Frightened 1d4 rounds
Chaotic: Stunned 1d4 rounds
Neutral: dazed 1d6 rounds
Lawful: Dazzled 1d8 rounds
Good: Inspired: +4 moral bonus to saves, skill checks, and armor class.

This is another powerful save-or-...wait...is there a save allowed here? If not, this is a massively powerful offense/buff for...really, almost any level, but especially coming in below 10th. I also don't see a range on it. I suppose the fact that it could hinder the party is something of a balance...although really, it seems like you'd either set it up to not affect non-lawful the party, or it just becomes a hindrance rather than a help. I do find the fact that even Lawful creatures get dazzled to be a little weird. Final thing: the inspired bit for Good needs a duration.


Faith Healing (Ex): Your healing powers heal twice as much HP on Lawful Good creatures, x1.5 on neutral creatures.

This seems off...what about a non-lawful but good creature?


Eternal Peace (Su): At 20th level a Tendersoul transcends the mortal coil and becomes something otherworldly and divine. Her type changes to Kindled (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203992). However, she is not affected by spells that specifically target humanoids, such as hold person. Additionally, the Tendersoul gains fast healing 10 (Overlaps the Kindled Fast healing 1) and her damage reduction changes to DR 20/-.
The Tendersoul is now immune to all forms of damage directed at her, or directed into her area that she does not willingly accept so long as she has not acted offensively even once this day. (this includes any spell that would have a negative effect.)
She will never die of old age, as normal for a Kindled, but she can choose if she wishes to be with the goddess, forfeiting the moral world to join the goddess in a realm of light and eternal life. She may come back sometimes, as a messenger of the goddess, or to carry out simple orders as Angels do for some deities.

Glad you got rid of the super party buffing. Kindled seems pretty powerful, but that's fine for a capstone. The Fast Healing and DR are quite high, but I tend to think those abilities are generally too low across the board. That blanket immunity...might be a bit much. Although it does prevent your offenses, it still leaves you as an invulnerable heal/buff station for your party.


Morality: A Tendersoul must be of lawful good alignment and looses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, each Tendersoul must follow the Tendersoul's morals.

No real balance analysis, but I do have a question: why Lawful Good? I'd think any Good would be okay, and really, if I were to choose an alignment that best represents this class, I'd probably go with Neutral Good, caring only about virtue without interest in law and chaos. Just my opinion though.


In addition she gains Sacred Vow at level 1, Vow of Nonviolence at level seven, and Vow of Peace at level fourteen.

I...actually might suggest not using these. I think one of the biggest complaints about these vows is that they take what should be a character's personal vows and impose them on the rest of the party. I like the idea of a high-defense support class that can't directly harm enemies, but making it so the party can't fight effectively makes it very hard to get such a character in a normal adventuring group.

Also, the +4 to DCs from Nonviolence would make that base DC of 15 for spells even crazier.


Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a Tendersoul will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A Tendersoul may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts or are lawful good.

I don't think this rule works for Tendersouls. As agents of redemption, they should be expected to associate with evil characters and those who offend them - how else would they redeem them?

TL;DR: I like the premise of the class, and a lot of the execution, but I do think it has way too much offensive ability (in the sense of being able to neutralize opponents, not directly harm or kill them) and sheer versatility to justify some of the truly massive defensive abilities. It's not really a well-defended but martially helpless support character. It's a powerful cleric with better-than-normal spellcasting and a host of exceptional support and personal defense abilities on top of that.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-25, 03:51 PM
Long-winded Point by Point Analysis:

I'm...very confused about how the spells work. The lines in bold are the most confusing for me. Part of it sounds like Spirit Shaman...part like Warmage...and then there's the 3 * Cha mod thing that I just don't get.

Whats not to get... Listed number on the table is how many spells you can Set, have at ready. Otherwise they have free access to they're full spell list, but need to Reset they're selections to do so. They cast x3 cha spells per level - spell level. Cha +5 = 15 0 per day, 14 first per day, 13 2nd per day, ect.


I also agree that the DC starting at 15 is too good. You still have spells like Hold Person, Command and Greater Command, and a few other spells that can ruin someone's day on a failed save. It's substantial offensive combat efficiency, pure and simple.

That was before I decided to let them have more then heals and buffs, forgot about it. fixed.


I'm also kind of wondering what Divine Favor, Righteous Might, Divine Power (!!), and Contagion (!!!???!!!) are doing on the spell list.

Divine Power I was just talking about, Favor and Power are to be removed. Contagion slipped in somehow and wasn't meant to be. Righteous Might however is there for fluff. ya know, filling with divine might ya know, it works with how I view it. in fact I'm also going to add Aspect of Deity when I find them.




Yeah, this looks solid until you get to the doubled Cha. That really is just a massively powerful defense. I know a big point of the class is strong defenses, but with its spells and abilities, this class is far from useless in a combat scenario. If you want them to be a bit more resilient than single Cha gets them, I'd give them light armor proficiency, shield proficiency, a higher HD, and good saves across the board (favored souls get it, after all). Also, you may want to specify these boosts don't stack with similar ones, and maybe that the AC boost is lost in armor (or non-light armor). Otherwise, you know, fighter, monk, and paladin dips. :smalleek:

Without double cha you will be an easy target. I'm seeing what... a total of +5 from dex or something, and then this bonus. to realistically maybe +20. for AC 35 at like level 20. meanwhile other characters can get that at ten it seems.




You might want to make the base DC of the Sanctuary 10 + 1/2 level + Cha mod, rather than using the typical DC of 11 + Cha mod for a spell-like of a first level spell. Sanctuary! is indeed pretty strong, but I think it's okay. It can still be dispelled and gotten around with area and effect spells.

better DC? sure.




Free action healing gives this class an awesome combat role. I like it. Especially nice since you can drop a cure as standard and use this healing to top it off. Quick question, is this supposed to be level * 4 * Cha, or is the 4 an artifact that was supposed to be replaced by Cha? I'm assuming the former?

? Its x4 meaning level five, with a +5 cha, would be 5 + (5x4) or level 10 with a +5 cha would be 10 + (5x4).
hm... that actually looks pretty weak...




This is really strong. Even removing overtly deadly spells, this provides massive versatility. At an absolute minimum, you should specify that the Con damage can't be healed. Otherwise, you basically get a minor-to-not-so-minor miracle at the cost of a level 2 slot (Lesser Restoration). Even then, it's really strong. Souping up the Con damage, adding a 1/day limit, or something to tone it down is, I think, necessary. Also, Miracle itself allows different spell levels depending on the spell list...how does this work with such spells?

*sigh* again, this is just for the forgiven. You atone them, they get a little mini-wish as the Goddess smiles upon they're choice.




In some ways, I really like this ability. Others not so much. I love the idea of it forcing a save every time they perform an evil action. I would, however, define what "giving into" the voice means (I'd say lose the action and become dazed for a round or something). I'd also remove the actual alignment changing, shifting away from the "holy mindrape" as a certain BoED spell is often called and just making it really, really hard to do anything evil until they choose to atone.

But holy mind rape is good :) I did clarify what happens on fail.




The [evil] confuses me a bit. That's usually used to designate creatures that actually have the Evil Subtype. The rest of the ability suggests it works on evil creatures in general, which I assume is the intention. It's cool, but it's also a powerful multi-target save-or-lose.

It was evil subtype, but I think I'll make it generic and alignment based.





This is another powerful save-or-...wait...is there a save allowed here? If not, this is a massively powerful offense/buff for...really, almost any level, but especially coming in below 10th. I also don't see a range on it. I suppose the fact that it could hinder the party is something of a balance...although really, it seems like you'd either set it up to not affect non-lawful the party, or it just becomes a hindrance rather than a help. I do find the fact that even Lawful creatures get dazzled to be a little weird. Final thing: the inspired bit for Good needs a duration.

Lawful, but not lawful good. added duration.




This seems off...what about a non-lawful but good creature?

As most, Divine Word namely, its intended to stack. Lawful good heals x2.5.





No real balance analysis, but I do have a question: why Lawful Good? I'd think any Good would be okay, and really, if I were to choose an alignment that best represents this class, I'd probably go with Neutral Good, caring only about virtue without interest in law and chaos. Just my opinion though.


I was just thinking that a while ago....



I...actually might suggest not using these. I think one of the biggest complaints about these vows is that they take what should be a character's personal vows and impose them on the rest of the party. I like the idea of a high-defense support class that can't directly harm enemies, but making it so the party can't fight effectively makes it very hard to get such a character in a normal adventuring group.

Also, the +4 to DCs from Nonviolence would make that base DC of 15 for spells even crazier.



I don't think this rule works for Tendersouls. As agents of redemption, they should be expected to associate with evil characters and those who offend them - how else would they redeem them?

That was added in the early stages before I had the full picture. *removed*

Veklim
2011-06-25, 04:18 PM
Looking better, a little concerned about the excessive (IMHO) spell list and the lack of class skills, liking mettle being added, makes sense no? BAB and saves look more sensible too, might still wanna consider D6 HD but it's not essential I don't think.

With regards to spells, would it not be easier to pick a few domains you like and give them spell lists based on them (kinda mystic style), helps you cut it down and allows you to simply add a new 'domain' list if you wanna add druid/bard spells later...just a thought :smallbiggrin:

Overall, looking good dude, finishing touches, a bit of polish and plenty of sleep do wonders for a bit of homebrew! :smalltongue:

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-25, 04:30 PM
Looking better, a little concerned about the excessive (IMHO) spell list and the lack of class skills, liking mettle being added, makes sense no? BAB and saves look more sensible too, might still wanna consider D6 HD but it's not essential I don't think.

With regards to spells, would it not be easier to pick a few domains you like and give them spell lists based on them (kinda mystic style), helps you cut it down and allows you to simply add a new 'domain' list if you wanna add druid/bard spells later...just a thought :smallbiggrin:

Overall, looking good dude, finishing touches, a bit of polish and plenty of sleep do wonders for a bit of homebrew! :smalltongue:

Well.. Maybe I shouldn't point it out, as someone might start complaining about that, but the Kindled type gained at lv 20 changes the hit die to d12...
Yes, I like Mettle. The excessive list is excessive, yes. But lacks any of the fun things like Animate/create undead, Searing light, Wall of fire, ect.

Domains? hm... Nah. I already put the excessive spells down. and besides, most domains have offensive abilities.

Quellian-dyrae
2011-06-25, 04:58 PM
Whats not to get... Listed number on the table is how many spells you can Set, have at ready. Otherwise they have free access to they're full spell list, but need to Reset they're selections to do so. They cast x3 cha spells per level - spell level. Cha +5 = 15 0 per day, 14 first per day, 13 2nd per day, ect.

Ah, got it. Uh...[Captain Obvious]that's a whole lot of spells[/Captain Obvious].


Divine Power I was just talking about, Favor and Power are to be removed. Contagion slipped in somehow and wasn't meant to be. Righteous Might however is there for fluff. ya know, filling with divine might ya know, it works with how I view it. in fact I'm also going to add Aspect of Deity when I find them.

Okay gotcha. Yeah Aspect of the Deity would be great for these guys.


Without double cha you will be an easy target. I'm seeing what... a total of +5 from dex or something, and then this bonus. to realistically maybe +20. for AC 35 at like level 20. meanwhile other characters can get that at ten it seems.

Level 20, taking advantage of items, a 30 for the primary attribute is about the minimum realistically (15 base + 5 levels + 6 enhancement + 4 inherent). Add in a natural 16-18, +5 inherent, and a racial +2, and you're looking at up to 36 before shenanigans. Even then, that wouldn't be too bad, but I don't think there's anything preventing this class from using normal magical protective gear. So you're looking at +5 Dex, +20 to +26 Cha, +8 Bracers or Armor (or, with a one level fighter dip, +18 for +5 Mithral Full Plate and +5 Shield, counting the -2 for lost Dex), +5 Deflection, +5 Natural, so AC could range from 53 to like...69, depending on optimization.

There's also double Cha to saves (plus Evasion and Mettle), and the double Cha to hit points a few levels before your HD then shoots up to d12 (do Kindle lose Con to hp though?)


? Its x4 meaning level five, with a +5 cha, would be 5 + (5x4) or level 10 with a +5 cha would be 10 + (5x4).
hm... that actually looks pretty weak...

Ah okay. Yeah, that looks low. The paladin does Cha * Level, Dragon Shaman 2 * Cha * Level.


*sigh* again, this is just for the forgiven. You atone them, they get a little mini-wish as the Goddess smiles upon they're choice.

OH! I didn't notice that. Okay, that's actually really cool.


But holy mind rape is good :) I did clarify what happens on fail.

LOL, fair enough.


Lawful, but not lawful good. added duration.

The DC not scaling with level means this one will get weaker (except as a buff of course) as levels get higher. Myself, I'm always a fan of the classic 10 + 1/2 level + ability modifier for saves.


As most, Divine Word namely, its intended to stack. Lawful good heals x2.5.

Okay got it.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-25, 05:19 PM
Ah, got it. Uh...[Captain Obvious]that's a whole lot of spells[/Captain Obvious].



Okay gotcha. Yeah Aspect of the Deity would be great for these guys.



Level 20, taking advantage of items, a 30 for the primary attribute is about the minimum realistically (15 base + 5 levels + 6 enhancement + 4 inherent). Add in a natural 16-18, +5 inherent, and a racial +2, and you're looking at up to 36 before shenanigans. Even then, that wouldn't be too bad, but I don't think there's anything preventing this class from using normal magical protective gear. So you're looking at +5 Dex, +20 to +26 Cha, +8 Bracers or Armor (or, with a one level fighter dip, +18 for +5 Mithral Full Plate and +5 Shield, counting the -2 for lost Dex), +5 Deflection, +5 Natural, so AC could range from 53 to like...69, depending on optimization.

Why would anyone trade for fighter just to get some armor, you can't expect to still be some fighting maniac and still hope to be a Tendersoul. Not to mention by trading a level (let alone for something so ridiculous) takes away they're opportunity to become semi-immortal at level twenty without going into epic levels. The DM would have to give them something so crazy as a +8 bracer's of armor or magic super armor, meaning they're shot in the head or are cool with it. Your throwing in a lot of weird things like Natural armor bonus of +5.... I don't know of any non monstrous race that has natural armor that doesn't have LA. Thats obviously an exaggerated crazy character that a munchkin would play. But I can't see munchkins playing Tendersoul rather then something like a wizard to blast things.


There's also double Cha to saves (plus Evasion and Mettle), and the double Cha to hit points a few levels before your HD then shoots up to d12 (do Kindle lose Con to hp though?)

Why would they? they're not some undead creep. And look again:
"It can replace Constitution for determining Concentration and HP."
I don't think its as bad as it sounds like your thinking. But I think its perfectly fair to change the double to a x1.5.




Ah okay. Yeah, that looks low. The paladin does Cha * Level, Dragon Shaman 2 * Cha * Level.

changing..




The DC not scaling with level means this one will get weaker (except as a buff of course) as levels get higher. Myself, I'm always a fan of the classic 10 + 1/2 level + ability modifier for saves.

Yea. That works right. I mean the same words aren't going to effect the bigger, more evil baddies, would it? Meanwhile they would still inspire the faithful.

Quellian-dyrae
2011-06-25, 06:16 PM
Why would anyone trade for fighter just to get some armor, you can't expect to still be some fighting maniac and still hope to be a Tendersoul. Not to mention by trading a level (let alone for something so ridiculous) takes away they're opportunity to become semi-immortal at level twenty without going into epic levels. The DM would have to give them something so crazy as a +8 bracer's of armor or magic super armor, meaning they're shot in the head or are cool with it. Your throwing in a lot of weird things like Natural armor bonus of +5.... I don't know of any non monstrous race that has natural armor that doesn't have LA. Thats obviously an exaggerated crazy character that a munchkin would play. But I can't see munchkins playing Tendersoul rather then something like a wizard to blast things.

Well, a fighter was my go-to example. Any level dip (Paladin, Crusader, Knight), or even a few feats, to get heavy armor and shield proficiencies. It would indeed carry a cost...but what I'm saying is, the feature does not strictly exclude wearing heavy armor. Really, since this class will never attack, it would be perfectly possible to just wear the armor without proficiency. All you lose are...I think attack bonus and Ride checks.

The +5 natural armor comes from an Amulet of Natural Armor +5, part of the classical protective item suite of Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, and Cloak of Resistance. I'm not sure if in your games these items aren't common; in my experience, they're standard-fare, indeed the primary way most characters get decent ACs at high levels.

Anyway, I'm not trying to throw a bunch of crazy optimization options in your face. The things I listed above are, in my experience, an expected baseline. You had said that this class needs the double Cha to AC to have a competitive AC at high levels. What I'm trying to point out is that (unless I missed something) nothing in the class strictly excludes all the usual ways characters get a high AC.

They can still use all the normal protective gear, and if they want to dip, spend feats, or just deal with the nonproficiency penalties that don't technically even hinder them (notably more on the munchkin side of things, but a legitimate balance concern), they can get all the AC any other character can, plus the double Cha. If you add explicit non-stacking with armor and other ability-modifier-to-AC things, it will help. If you say it can't stack with any other AC boost, it will indeed possibly be even too weak. As it is, it can allow a much higher than normal AC if the player chooses to invest the resources into it.


Why would they? they're not some undead creep. And look again:
"It can replace Constitution for determining Concentration and HP."
I don't think its as bad as it sounds like your thinking. But I think its perfectly fair to change the double to a x1.5.

I admittedly only skimmed it, and since several of the immunities and such seemed similar, I wanted to make sure. You are right though, I did overlook the replacement for hp, so while good, that is more balanced. X1.5 would be better balanced still.


Yea. That works right. I mean the same words aren't going to effect the bigger, more evil baddies, would it? Meanwhile they would still inspire the faithful.

Okay got it, fair enough.

NeoSeraphi
2011-06-25, 06:38 PM
Well, a fighter was my go-to example. Any level dip (Paladin, Crusader, Knight), or even a few feats, to get heavy armor and shield proficiencies. It would indeed carry a cost...but what I'm saying is, the feature does not strictly exclude wearing heavy armor. Really, since this class will never attack, it would be perfectly possible to just wear the armor without proficiency. All you lose are...I think attack bonus and Ride checks.


The penalty for wearing armor you are not proficient with is taking the armor check penalty to all Strength and Dexterity based skill checks, as well as all attack rolls, and possibly all Strength checks and Dexterity checks, including initiative, I'm not sure.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-25, 06:45 PM
Due to the nature of Goddess's Gift I didn't want to do this but.



Goddess's Gift (Ex): The Goddess grants you a potent gift. You add you Charisma modifier as Insight bonus to AC, as untyped bonus to Saves, It can replace Constitution for determining Concentration and HP. If you wear armor, this changes to half bonus to saves, and no AC bonus.
4: Your considered to have the Uncanny Dodge and Evasion abilities.
8: Your considered to have the Mettle ability and You are never surprised.
12: Your considered to have the Improved Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion feats.
16:You gain half your Charisma modifier again (meaning x1.5 cha) to AC, Saves and HP. This changes to no further bonus if you wear armor. You now have a constant Augury like effect that only gives "woe" warnings on particularly bad choices.

Quellian-dyrae
2011-06-25, 06:53 PM
The penalty for wearing armor you are not proficient with is taking the armor check penalty to all Strength and Dexterity based skill checks, as well as all attack rolls, and possibly all Strength checks and Dexterity checks, including initiative, I'm not sure.

::Double-checks::Huh, I had never noticed the ability check penalties before. I'm pretty sure that Ride is the only Str or Dex based skill you don't already take check penalties to though, is why I put it like that (although...looking at it further, I'm also not sure that it doesn't stack, huh).

Well, in any event, I think that helps significantly. Don't believe I have anything else to add, except to say good job on the class!

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-25, 08:24 PM
Well, in any event, I think that helps significantly. Don't believe I have anything else to add, except to say good job on the class!

then in that case, thanks.

Shadow Lord
2011-06-25, 09:15 PM
You give this class the ability to be immune to damage. Think about that. I don't give a flying crud about whether or not it just heals and buffs, it is now the most overpowered thing in all of D&D. That is all.

jiriku
2011-06-26, 01:00 AM
Cipher, I'm a really, really, really scary DM. My players know when they show up to my games that even if they optimize until they're blue in the face, I'm going to thrash the PCs to within an inch of their lives in every game session.

But I could not challenge a tendersoul unless player was bad at D&D. With an endless battery of the most powerful spells in the game, ridiculously effective defenses, awesome healing, and the ability to consistently pop off 2-4 actions every turn, this thing leaves cleric and druid in the dust.

The only way I could present the character any sort of difficulty would be to throw murderously over-CR'd encounters at them that would absolutely incinerate the rest of the party, or to cheat like a mad dog.

I've got to ask, what kind of campaign are you intending to use this class for? It doesn't seem like it could do anything other than destroy any campaign I've ever played in.

Dumbledore lives
2011-06-26, 01:57 AM
Cipher, I'm a really, really, really scary DM. My players know when they show up to my games that even if they optimize until they're blue in the face, I'm going to thrash the PCs to within an inch of their lives in every game session.

But I could not challenge a tendersoul unless player was bad at D&D. With an endless battery of the most powerful spells in the game, ridiculously effective defenses, awesome healing, and the ability to consistently pop off 2-4 actions every turn, this thing leaves cleric and druid in the dust.

The only way I could present the character any sort of difficulty would be to throw murderously over-CR'd encounters at them that would absolutely incinerate the rest of the party, or to cheat like a mad dog.

I've got to ask, what kind of campaign are you intending to use this class for? It doesn't seem like it could do anything other than destroy any campaign I've ever played in.

I think this post is a little bit of an exaggeration, but the class is extremely powerful. Looking through the spell list I see a lot of the classic wizard spells, with the ability to cast them spontaneously as well as charisma to AC and saves. That is better than the wizard in many ways, which is not a good baseline. I'd say this is tier 1, where as a better balance point might be tier 3.

Just changing the spell list could be a great help, trimming it to not be quite so enormous, and getting rid of some of the best spells.

Quellian-dyrae
2011-06-26, 02:44 AM
I think this post is a little bit of an exaggeration, but the class is extremely powerful. Looking through the spell list I see a lot of the classic wizard spells, with the ability to cast them spontaneously as well as charisma to AC and saves. That is better than the wizard in many ways, which is not a good baseline. I'd say this is tier 1, where as a better balance point might be tier 3.

Just changing the spell list could be a great help, trimming it to not be quite so enormous, and getting rid of some of the best spells.

Um...I have to second this. Strongly. I think when I had looked, it was still only the cleric spells, so I wasn't sure what was up here. I went back after seeing this post, and yeah, the expanded spell list massively overpowers the class. Especially having sat down and thought some about what the spells per day system really means.

I mean, taking nothing else into consideration, if I understand everything correctly, with Cha 30 at 20th level, you could be casting Astral Projection, Gate, Miracle, and Shapechange a combined total of 21 times a day. I'm fairly sure I could post that one sentence attached to the Commoner class and it would be considered broken.

DracoDei
2011-06-26, 04:02 AM
You give this class the ability to be immune to damage. Think about that. I don't give a flying crud about whether or not it just heals and buffs, it is now the most overpowered thing in all of D&D. That is all.
All that means is you are very unlikely to lose due to damage. You can still "lose" by one of your team-mates getting perma-killed or suffering level loss or whatever. And for someone as kind as this class's fluff demands, that would be a serious blow and should be treated as such.

But that brings up a different problem... what in the world is a member of this class doing helping out people who routinely trample on their most dearly-held values (by hurting other people)?

I suppose there might be some helpful fluff associated with Vow of Peace in the BoED?

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-26, 04:25 AM
All that means is you are very unlikely to lose due to damage. You can still "lose" by one of your team-mates getting perma-killed or suffering level loss or whatever. And for someone as kind as this class's fluff demands, that would be a serious blow and should be treated as such.

But that brings up a different problem... what in the world is a member of this class doing helping out people who routinely trample on their most dearly-held values (by hurting other people)?

I suppose there might be some helpful fluff associated with Vow of Peace in the BoED?

exactly :) But I since changed it, they're not immune to damage, they just cannot die. but can get KO'd and kept for eternity as love slave to the evil, or just kept suffering in some long lasting torment that would kill anyone else.

They may feel obligated, or commanded to by someone with authority to do so. list can go on for a while I imagine.

Veklim
2011-06-26, 07:00 AM
what in the world is a member of this class doing helping out people who routinely trample on their most dearly-held values
I could see a Tendersoul running with a group just BECAUSE of this fact, not despite it. Put simply in two words, Damage Limitation. The Tendersoul is with the group because she can do the most good there, she can stop atrocities from even starting (or at least getting out of hand) and she can repair at least some of the damage caused by an adventuring party.

This is not a class to be given to a munchkin, an optimiser, or in fact any sort of a power-gamer. This is a class built for an incredible, challenging and unique roleplay experience. I can virtually guarantee that the majority of people who would actually play this class properly would be DMs themselves, me being one of them. I'd LOVE to play one of these in a campaign, not because it's potentially broken beyond reason but because it gives a wonderful opportunity to play something different.

I am, however, going to chime in one last time on the spells. It's been a sticking point on this build, and frankly it should be. The spells are too varied, far too numerous, and many of them are too far outside the realms of healing and protection for my liking. As it now stands, the rest of the class is in the 'sweet spot' for me, but if I were to use this class, I would have a VERY select list of cleric buffs and healing, bardic mind affecting and perhaps some druid nature-oriented spells. That would be the limit and I think the class would actually fare better for it. Leave gate and shapechange and all those other lovely over-powered horrific spells to the classes who still need/want them, let the Tendersoul be a pacifist in EVERY way.

DracoDei
2011-06-26, 10:40 AM
I could see a Tendersoul running with a group just BECAUSE of this fact, not despite it. Put simply in two words, Damage Limitation. The Tendersoul is with the group because she can do the most good there, she can stop atrocities from even starting (or at least getting out of hand) and she can repair at least some of the damage caused by an adventuring party.
Ok, that works. I strongly suspected there were one or more solutions out there, and that one is... reasonably plausible.


This is not a class to be given to a munchkin, an optimiser, or in fact any sort of a power-gamer. This is a class built for an incredible, challenging and unique roleplay experience. I can virtually guarantee that the majority of people who would actually play this class properly would be DMs themselves, me being one of them. I'd LOVE to play one of these in a campaign, not because it's potentially broken beyond reason but because it gives a wonderful opportunity to play something different.
"Something different" is always fun.


<Snip> Leave gate and shapechange and all those other lovely over-powered horrific spells to the classes who still need/want them, let the Tendersoul be a pacifist in EVERY way.
But... but... how am I supposed to appeal to the gentler instincts of the larger sizes of rampaging monsters without the ability to turn into a Huge sized newborn Titanic Deer Fawn to give them the baby fawn eyes with my dinner-plate sized Titanic Deer Fawn eyes?
*Makes aforementioned eyes at Veklim.*

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-26, 11:02 AM
... All I did was slash the lists together, Then I just looked for numbers (usually damage) and key words such as pain and stuff...
So yea, I guess somethings like Shapechange were still included.... it was poor job after all with many repeated spells.
edit.
Its not about healing and protection spells. Its about spells that can be used in helping those around them, from digging wells, clearing rubble, and making new homes.

DracoDei
2011-06-26, 12:05 PM
Its not about healing and protection spells. Its about spells that can be used in helping those around them, from digging wells, clearing rubble, and making new homes.
I approve of this. You might want to just make a special note that any spell that grants a bonus to attack or damage functions normally EXCEPT for said effects, I think there may be several that have a variety of benefits and... yeah.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-26, 12:08 PM
I approve of this. You might want to just make a special note that any spell that grants a bonus to attack or damage functions normally EXCEPT for said effects, I think there may be several that have a variety of benefits and... yeah.

Well, you still possess a Base attack bonus do you? Some bonuses may still be part of a spell, doesn't mean the Tendersoul will use them to harm.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-26, 12:18 PM
accepting new spell-list, Healing, Buffs, and Utilities if anyone read and thought "Psh, I could make a better one".

Quellian-dyrae
2011-06-26, 01:40 PM
accepting new spell-list, Healing, Buffs, and Utilities if anyone read and thought "Psh, I could make a better one".

Eh, I'll give it a shot.

The focus, of course, is healing and protection. Most buffs drawn from the cleric list only (barkskin the main exception, giving the class full access to the Deflection/Natural Armor/Resistance protection suite from spells alone, befitting a defense-based class). Direct offense is pretty much limited to Sleep, Charm, and Banishment. Utilities focus primarily on divination, some low-end construction, and general "help others" spells. Little to nothing in the areas of travel, stealth, battlefield control, summoning, and direct damage. Also none of the more serious status effects, and limited on the ward front (a lot of them tend to be directly harmful). Also not really any repulsion-type effects, since to me they conflict some with the "love everyone" theme of the class.

Orizons
Create Water
Cure Minor Wounds
Detect Magic
Detect Poison
Guidance
Light
Mending
Purify Food and Drink
Read Magic
Resistance
Virtue

First Level
Bless
Bless Water
Calm Animals
Charm Animal
Charm Person
Conviction (SpC)
Comprehend Languages
Cure Light Wounds
Deathwatch
Delay Disease (SpC)
Detect Chaos/Evil
Detect Undead
Endure Elements
Entropic Shield
Goodberry
Nightshield (SpC)
Protection from Chaos/Evil
Remove Fear
Resurgence (SpC)
Sanctuary
Shield of Faith
Sleep
Speak with Animals
Vigor, Lesser (SpC)

Second Level
Aid
Augury
Barkskin
Bear's Endurance
Bull's Strength
Calm Emotions
Close Wounds (SpC)
Consecrate
Cat's Grace
Cure Moderate Wounds
Delay Poison
Eagle's Splendor
Enthrall
Fox's Cunning
Gentle Repose
Healing Lorecall (SpC)
Make Whole
Owl's Wisdom
Protection from Negative Energy (SpC)
Remove Paralysis
Resist Energy
Restoration, Lesser
Shield Other
Silence
Status
Wood Shape
Zone of Truth

Third Level
Aid, Mass (SpC)
Continual Flame
Conviction, Mass (SpC)
Create Food and Water
Cure Serious Wounds
Daylight
Deep Slumber
Dispel Magic
Helping Hand
Invisibility Purge
Locate Object
Magic Circle vs. Chaos/Evil
Magic Vestment
Plant Growth (enrichment function only)
Prayer
Protection from Energy
Quench
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Curse
Remove Disease
Resist Energy, Mass (SpC)
Speak with Plants
Stone Shape
Vigor (SpC)
Vigor, Mass Lesser (SpC)
Visage of the Deity, Lesser (SpC)
Water Breathing
Water Walk

Fourth Level
Charm Monster
Cure Critical Wounds
Death Ward
Delay Death (SpC)
Discern Lies
Dismissal
Divination
Freedom of Movement
Imbue with Spell Ability
Neutralize Poison
Panacea (SpC)
Positive Energy Aura (SpC)
Recitation (SpC)
Resistance, Greater (SpC)
Restoration
Sending
Sheltered Vitality (SpC)
Shield of Faith, Mass (SpC)
Spell Immunity
Tongues

Fifth Level
Atonement
Break Enchantment
Commune
Commune with Nature
Cure Light Wounds, Mass
Dispel Chaos/Evil
Divine Agility (SpC)
Hallow
Life's Grace (SpC)
Raise Dead
Revivify (SpC)
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (SpC)
Sanctuary, Mass (SpC)
Scrying
Spell Resistance
Symbol of Sleep
True Seeing
Vigor, Greater (SpC)
Zone of Revelation (SpC)

Sixth Level
Banishment
Bull's Strength, Mass
Cat's Grace, Mass
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass
Dispel Magic, Greater
Eagle's Splendor, Mass
Energy Immunity (SpC)
Find the Path
Fox's Cunning, Mass
Heal
Heroes' Feast
Owl's Wisdom, Mass
Stone Tell
Resistance, Superior (SpC)
Revive Outsider (SpC)
Vigorous Circle (SpC)
Visage of the Deity (SpC)

Seventh Level
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass
Dictum (banishment function only)
Fortunate Fate (SpC)
Hiss of Sleep (SpC)
Holy Word (banishment function only)
Refuge
Regenerate
Restoration, Greater
Restoration, Mass (SpC)
Resurrection
Scrying, Greater
Spell Resistance, Mass (SpC)

Eighth Level
Antimagic Field
Charm Monster, Mass
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
Death Ward, Mass (SpC)
Discern Location
Holy Aura
Shield of Law
Spell Immunity, Greater

Ninth Level
Foresight
Heal, Mass
Miracle (only for effects that heal, protect, or improve others)
Sympathy
True Resurrection
Visage of the Deity, Greater (SpC)

DracoDei
2011-06-26, 01:56 PM
Quellian-dyrae:
Why Align Weapon?

Quellian-dyrae
2011-06-26, 02:03 PM
Hmm...it's an offensive ally buff on the cleric list, and a helpful one against fiends and stuff, but thinking about it, I don't think I added Greater Magic Weapon, and it is rather closer to that than, say, Aid, which at least has some protective value.

Removing. Good catch.

Veklim
2011-06-27, 04:44 AM
I'd be very tempted to add unseen servant, it makes a fantastic aid for field hospitals and the like, and makes sense as a purely auxilliary spell. Also think about the tiny hut/secure shelter set of spells, shelter is another part of protection after all...

Otherwise, the spell list looks pretty good to me, much better than it was, and the general power of the class is significantly (but by no means cripplingly) reduced. I'd use this tomorrow given a chance.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-27, 06:55 AM
I'd be very tempted to add unseen servant, it makes a fantastic aid for field hospitals and the like, and makes sense as a purely auxilliary spell. Also think about the tiny hut/secure shelter set of spells, shelter is another part of protection after all...

It is done.

I'd give them more Arcane spells, like Lock, and Alarm for example. But apparently no one likes it. So I'll just add as requested.

DracoDei
2011-06-27, 11:40 AM
It is done.

I'd give them more Arcane spells, like Lock, and Alarm for example. But apparently no one likes it. So I'll just add as requested.

I say go for it!

SamBurke
2011-06-27, 01:13 PM
Yeah, that could work. Some might question it, but, bah! Those work for me.

Note: I do agree that their alignment should be more Neutral Good, as Lawful Good screams "Miko" or stick-up-rear.

Also, if it isn't asking too much, could we have a version that's similar, but more OK with fighting? Basically a toned-down multiclass for a merciful Paladin. Instead of not fighting, they have to avoid it whenever absolutely possible or so on. Because I would seriously love to add this to one of my current characters.

Veklim
2011-06-27, 03:34 PM
Aye, both spells make sense.

As far as alignment goes, you could even get away with non-chaotic, non-evil in honesty, but it's hard to pin down an alignment for this, especially considering the annoyances associated with said alignment system... Leaving as is won't hurt it a jot imo.

DracoDei
2011-06-27, 04:11 PM
Note: I do agree that their alignment should be more Neutral Good, as Lawful Good screams "Miko" or stick-up-rear.
I will remind you that both Hinjo and O-Chul are also Lawful Good, and neither of them are "stick-up-rear".

Also, if it isn't asking too much, could we have a version that's similar, but more OK with fighting? Basically a toned-down multiclass for a merciful Paladin. Instead of not fighting, they have to avoid it whenever absolutely possible or so on. Because I would seriously love to add this to one of my current characters.
Would be nice... in fact nice enough that there is a SMALL chance (and ONLY a SMALL one) that if the OP doesn't make one, I might request their permission, when they are done, to make such a variation myself.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-27, 04:37 PM
To make a more offensive, Less Defensive Tendersoul alter the following.
(and of course alter Morality to read: Do all they can to prevent loss of life)
Goddess's Gift (Ex): The Goddess grants you a potent gift. You add you Charisma modifier as Insight bonus to AC, and It can replace Constitution for determining Concentration. If you wear armor, this gives half Cha modifier to AC.
4: Your considered to have the and Evasion abitties.
8: Your considered to have the Mettle ability.
12: Your considered to have the Uncanny Dodge and Improved Evasion abilities.
16: You now have a constant Augury like effect that only gives "woe" warnings on particularly bad choices.

Sanctuary (Sp): A Tendersoul can perform Sanctuary at listed times per day, becoming at will at level 9. The DC however is 10+1/2 class levels +cha mod.
Sanctuaries Hold: After becoming At Will, Sanctuary becomes more powerful. They add the listed bonus to Caster Level and for the Sanctuary save DC.
Sanctuary!: Sanctuary increases as normal for Sanctuaries Hold, but now Those with Immunity to Sanctuary instead have a 50% chance of ignoring it that round.

Eternal Peace (Su): At 20th level a Tendersoul transcends the mortal coil and becomes something otherworldly and divine. Her type changes to Kindled. However, she is not affected by spells that specifically target humanoids, such as hold person. Additionally, the Tendersoul gains fast healing 10 (Overlaps the Kindled Fast healing 1), She says conscious until -10, where she dies as normal for a Kindled, and her damage reduction changes to DR 15/+5.
In addition, She will never die of old age, as normal for a Kindled, but she can choose if she wishes to be with the goddess, forfeiting the moral world to join the goddess in a realm of light and eternal life. She may come back sometimes, as a messenger of the goddess, or to carry out simple orders as Angels do for some deities.

They do not gain any special offensive moves, but at DM's rule they can allow the Tendersoul to take up offensive Cleric, and/or Druid spells.

SamBurke
2011-06-27, 05:54 PM
OH YES.

Could I get you to put that in the OP by any chance? I'm gonna run this past my DM asap.

DracoDei
2011-06-27, 06:09 PM
To take it further in that direction one could, perhaps, do the following:
Give them the Subdual Substitution meta-magic feat (even if they have nothing in the class they can use it for by default) and the ability to deal subdual damage without a penalty to-hit (perhaps even saying that they take a -4 to cause lethal, regardless of native damage type for the weapon) at first level. Later give them the ability to deal subdual damage to things that are usually immune.

SamBurke
2011-06-27, 06:15 PM
Er... what's subdual damage?

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-27, 06:18 PM
Er... what's subdual damage?


Non-lethal .

SamBurke
2011-06-27, 06:23 PM
Ok. Thought so.

Also, it looks like you have a limit on casting CantripsOrisons. Not sure if that's what you're trying to do.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-27, 06:31 PM
Ok. Thought so.

Also, it looks like you have a limit on casting CantripsOrisons. Not sure if that's what you're trying to do.

hm ?

SamBurke
2011-06-28, 07:53 AM
Spells Known: A Tendersoul begins play knowing any spell in her spell list, and simply chooses her spell slots which remain as Spontaneous casting. As mentioned above, a midday ritual for an hour can be used to reset her spell selections.
The Spells listing in the above table are your effective spell slots. You can cast a number of spells per day from that spell level a number of times per day equal to x3 your Charisma modifier.
(emphasis added)

This is the part I'm not sure if I understand. Here's how I've interpreted it:

1. The spell progression mentioned is spells known.
2. You are able to cast any spell of a given level a number of times per day equal to ten + CHA mod - spell level (I believe you mentioned something about this earlier, which I'm about to look up).
3. Thus, assuming a Charisma of 20, Mod of 5, you can cast 15 orisons a day, by that list.

Somehow, that doesn't feel right, and I'm guessing I've done something wrong. What?

SamBurke
2011-06-28, 08:05 AM
Always respect legitimate authority. Do not attempt to rebel against unjust rule until such a time as your goddess commands it, but do not actively help such rule if possible.

This sounds more Neutral Good. Also, might the PureSoul variant need alignment change, due to its lessened morality? Just a question.

Also, being a more combat-oriented, they're going to need the standard-ish divine dice, I'm guessing. Another poster suggested it, but I think it's only really required on the PureSoul.

Also, skills are needed. Here's a few I'd suggest:
Heal (Wis), Survival (Wis), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Knowledge: The Plances (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Diplomacy (Cha), Use Magic Device (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Concentration (Con).

This class is great, though, and I can't wait to use it some time!

Veklim
2011-06-28, 11:04 AM
I would add knowledges history, nobility & royalty, arcana to that list, along with bluff (deception is often an effective approach for defusing or delaying violent situations after all).


This sounds more Neutral Good. Also, might the PureSoul variant need alignment change, due to its lessened morality? Just a question.
Short answer is no. It's not a lessened morality, just the same approach with a different emphasis, neither the tendersoul or the puresoul are 'better' than the other, paladins kill all the time and they have to be LG too.

Veklim
2011-06-28, 12:26 PM
OK, after looking back through this, the spells, the long discusion and even my own suggestion of unseen servant led me to an interesting thought for a spell these guys SHOULD have...

Summon Aid I
Level: Tendersoul 1 (Cleric/Druid 1, Bard 1 as well?)
Components: V,S,F/DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25ft.+5ft./2 levels)
Effect: 1 summoned expert
Duration: maximum 1 day/level (D) (See text)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Sometimes simply being there is not enough, sometimes you need an expert.
This spell summons an expert NPC with 3 HD, skills pertinent to the current situation and an alignment within one step of the caster's. If a bridge was collapsing, you would want an engineer for instance, but if there's been a natural disaster you would likely want triage specialists or search and rescue help instead. The expert follows the caster's commands, and is automatically Helpful for anything regarding the reason for the summoning, but is otherwise free-willed and independant. If left to their own devices, they will usually be inclined to use their skills to the best advantage, but will be utterly hopeless in a combat situation. The mind of an expert is highly trained, but their bodies are rarely so.
Note the expert arrives with 2D3 days worth of supplies for both themselves and their profession, but the spell's duration may exceed that, if this is the case, the caster must find ways of replenishing the supplies and even feeding the expert themselves. If these needs go unfulfilled for even as much as 1 hour/caster level, the spell immediately ends as if the duration had run out.

This spell has 9 levels (much like many summons), each level brings with it a corresponding number of experts (Summon Aid III summons 3 experts for example), all of whom may be chosen individually in regards to their expert type. The caster may only have a number of experts active from any and all summon expert spells equal to 3 X Charisma modifier. If excess experts emerge (I had to, sorry!), the remainder fail to turn up but the spell still works. For example, A caster with 16 cha has already got 6 experts active from other summons so even if he casts summon aid V, he will still only get 3 experts (instead of 5) for a total of 9.

SamBurke
2011-06-28, 03:43 PM
Ok, Cipher, just wanted to say something. This class is good. That's why we're criticizing it. When someone trains in classical ballet, only the best get critiqued. Why? Because they're the only ones who are worth the effort. Those others will have a nice hobby, and thus do not need to be by any measure good. Don't ask me why I know this.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-28, 08:18 PM
(emphasis added)

This is the part I'm not sure if I understand. Here's how I've interpreted it:

1. The spell progression mentioned is spells known.
2. You are able to cast any spell of a given level a number of times per day equal to ten + CHA mod - spell level (I believe you mentioned something about this earlier, which I'm about to look up).
3. Thus, assuming a Charisma of 20, Mod of 5, you can cast 15 orisons a day, by that list.

Somehow, that doesn't feel right, and I'm guessing I've done something wrong. What?
Wait, so whats the problem? :You think the 0's should be at will? Fabulous, so shall it be.


This sounds more Neutral Good. Also, might the PureSoul variant need alignment change, due to its lessened morality? Just a question.

Also, being a more combat-oriented, they're going to need the standard-ish divine dice, I'm guessing. Another poster suggested it, but I think it's only really required on the PureSoul.

Also, skills are needed. Here's a few I'd suggest:
Heal (Wis), Survival (Wis), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Knowledge: The Plances (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Diplomacy (Cha), Use Magic Device (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Concentration (Con).

This class is great, though, and I can't wait to use it some time!
Skills, good. Alignment not so much. Class has already been calibrated to provide maximum benefit towards Lawful Good. Besides, Tender to Pure wont be so much a change actually.



I would add knowledges history, nobility & royalty, arcana to that list, along with bluff (deception is often an effective approach for defusing or delaying violent situations after all).


Short answer is no. It's not a lessened morality, just the same approach with a different emphasis, neither the tendersoul or the puresoul are 'better' than the other, paladins kill all the time and they have to be LG too.
Right'o. History, Nobility& Royalty, Arcana. adding that...


OK, after looking back through this, the spells, the long discusion and even my own suggestion of unseen servant led me to an interesting thought for a spell these guys SHOULD have...

Summon Aid I
Level: Tendersoul 1 (Cleric/Druid 1, Bard 1 as well?)
Components: V,S,F/DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25ft.+5ft./2 levels)
Effect: 1 summoned expert
Duration: maximum 1 day/level (D) (See text)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Sometimes simply being there is not enough, sometimes you need an expert.
This spell summons an expert NPC with 3 HD, skills pertinent to the current situation and an alignment within one step of the caster's. If a bridge was collapsing, you would want an engineer for instance, but if there's been a natural disaster you would likely want triage specialists or search and rescue help instead. The expert follows the caster's commands, and is automatically Helpful for anything regarding the reason for the summoning, but is otherwise free-willed and independant. If left to their own devices, they will usually be inclined to use their skills to the best advantage, but will be utterly hopeless in a combat situation. The mind of an expert is highly trained, but their bodies are rarely so.
Note the expert arrives with 2D3 days worth of supplies for both themselves and their profession, but the spell's duration may exceed that, if this is the case, the caster must find ways of replenishing the supplies and even feeding the expert themselves. If these needs go unfulfilled for even as much as 1 hour/caster level, the spell immediately ends as if the duration had run out.

This spell has 9 levels (much like many summons), each level brings with it a corresponding number of experts (Summon Aid III summons 3 experts for example), all of whom may be chosen individually in regards to their expert type. The caster may only have a number of experts active from any and all summon expert spells equal to 3 X Charisma modifier. If excess experts emerge (I had to, sorry!), the remainder fail to turn up but the spell still works. For example, A caster with 16 cha has already got 6 experts active from other summons so even if he casts summon aid V, he will still only get 3 experts (instead of 5) for a total of 9.

*thinks about it*
Yea,l like it.


Ok, Cipher, just wanted to say something. This class is good. That's why we're criticizing it. When someone trains in classical ballet, only the best get critiqued. Why? Because they're the only ones who are worth the effort. Those others will have a nice hobby, and thus do not need to be by any measure good. Don't ask me why I know this.
mhm. I know a class of mine fails if no one replies, or there are so few replies. Plus I can usually pick up bad mojo through someones words. Everyone seems to be giving good-mojo in this thread.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-28, 09:03 PM
Fixed the Pureheart Variant to actually say Pureheart rather then Tendersoul in its descriptions, as well as changing it to Pureheart rather then Tendersoul. Sounds better to me.
I also made the Vows optional.

Veklim
2011-06-29, 10:16 AM
Sweet, this class looks better every time I log in! Had a thought this morning though... if there's blackguard for all those unfortunate paladins who get turned to the dark side, then should there be a Darksoul prestige...?

OK, severely unsubtle, I know, but hey... :smallbiggrin:

SamBurke
2011-06-29, 01:07 PM
Gonna be playing this class at Epic Level soon, so, should be to give some playtesting advice.

SamBurke
2011-07-04, 03:41 AM
Ok. A couple of notes:

1. The Pureheart is a tad underpowered. I don't know what needs to be changed, but I do think it could get bonuses to HP at the least.

2. The explanation of spells known and spells cast-able per day still mystifies me. Can we get an example, perhaps?

Cipherthe3vil
2011-07-04, 04:00 AM
a first level Tendersoul knows all the spells on they're list.
However, she must choose six orizons, and two first level spells. She has these spells as spontaneous casting from now on.
Say, three days later. She decides she needs a different spell. At midday she goes to a sunny clearing/backyard/temple to the Goddess and prays, she can now reselect her eight spells, which replace her old selections as spontaneous casting.

The Pureheart still can't die, mind you. They just return with fast healing 1 instead of 10 until they recover to 1+ hp, in which case they're normal 10 fast healing kicks in.
but sure, changed hit die for the Pureheart to d8

SamBurke
2011-07-13, 12:59 PM
Question: how many spells per day do they get?

Let's say we've got a Tendersoul with 20 Charisma (+5). They can cast each spell level 15 times? Or is it 15, 14, 13, 12, etc for 0, 1, 2, and 3 level spells?

DracoDei
2011-07-13, 02:52 PM
The later summon expert spells should work more like Summon Monster I-IX think... As in you should have an option to get a higher few higher level experts instead of more lower level ones. The exact mechanics don't have to be the same as that series, just... when a bridge is in danger of collapsing that 3rd level guy with a +12 to Knowledge [Architecture and Engineering] and Craft [Stone Mason/Bricklayer] who comes free with all the bricks and mortar he can lay in 4 days could be key. When you are 20th level and the dimensional boundaries have been ripped asunder in the area and you need to enact the counter-ritual precisely in the next 10 minutes, or a 20 mile radius sphere on 6 separate planes will vanish from existance? Those 9 guys who come loaded down with ritual components and +10 to Knowledge[Arcana], Knowledge[Religion], Knowledge[The Planes], Spellcraft may not even have a hope of pulling it off. Note that I was going to say that their 3 HD wouldn't be that good for surviving in the middle of a storm of elemental energy... but then I remembered what this class is all about thematically, and thought that theoretically they should totally be able to make that happen. Haven't run the actual mechanics though.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-07-13, 03:42 PM
Or is it 15, 14, 13, 12, etc for 0, 1, 2, and 3 level spells.

^-- This.



Not sure what your talking about with summon expert.

DracoDei
2011-07-13, 10:53 PM
Higher level summoning should be able to get a few higher level experts, as an option to many lower level ones.

SamBurke
2011-07-13, 11:13 PM
Also, it appears that you have to wait until level five to get ORISONS at will. WUT?

A few spells to add (sorry if any are already on the list):
1st.
Tenser's Disk. (This is pretty much only able to help. Supporting bridges,
buildings, wrecked ships, and the like).
Mage Armor/Shield/Etc. Protecting other people is good.

2nd.
See Invisibility.
Detect Thoughts.
False Life (Extra Temp. HP)
Rope Trick (Hiding!)

3rd.
Magic Circle against Evil/Chaos.
Nondetection.
Displacement.
Fly.

4th.
Minor/Major Creation

7th.
Refuge


9th.
Word of Recall

Possibles:
1st.
Enlarge/Reduce Person.
Illusion line -varies. 1,2,3, 5,6,7- (Other than phantasms, you could suggest all, as well. This would make it every level other than 9. And seriously, this is one of the most underpowered line of spells. Can it hurt?)

3rd.
Heroism
Hold Person
Deep Slumber

4th.
Wall of Ice

I understand that you're trying to get rid of some of the power, but I don't think that these would mess it up all too much. The one I'm really begggggggging you to add is Tenser's Disk. I LOVE that spell, despite its apparent uselessness.

EDIT: also, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115907) homebrew seems applicable.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-07-14, 12:22 AM
Higher level summoning should be able to get a few higher level experts, as an option to many lower level ones.
I'll check it out.

Also, it appears that you have to wait until level five to get ORISONS at will. WUT?


You know... I don't know of any class to get a whole spell level at will. So 0's at level five doesn't seem a stretch.
3'rds at level 15 does, however. But not totally, due to restrictions.


A few spells to add (sorry if any are already on the list):
Tenser's Disk. (This is pretty much only able to help. Supporting bridges,
buildings, wrecked ships, and the like).
Mage Armor/Shield/Etc. Protecting other people is good.
See Invisibility.
Detect Thoughts.
False Life (Extra Temp. HP)
Rope Trick (Hiding!)
Magic Circle against Evil/Chaos.
Nondetection.
Displacement.
Fly.
Minor/Major Creation
Word of Recall
Refuge

Possibles:
Enlarge/Reduce Person.
Illusion line (Other than phantasms. And seriously, this is one of the most underpowered line of spells. Can it hurt?)
Heroism
Hold Person
Deep Slumber
Wall of Ice

I understand that you're trying to get rid of some of the power, but I don't think that these would mess it up all too much. The one I'm really begggggggging you to add is Tenser's Disk. I LOVE that spell, despite its apparent uselessness.

EDIT: also, this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115907) homebrew seems applicable.

Add spell levels.

SamBurke
2011-07-14, 12:34 AM
Every Divine Class (save the absolutely crappy Paladin/Ranger Lists) gets all known 0 level spells at will. Every Arcane Class gets its known 0 Level spells at will. That's the point of an orison/cantrip.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-07-14, 12:37 AM
Every Divine Class (save the absolutely crappy Paladin/Ranger Lists) gets all known 0 level spells at will. Every Arcane Class gets its known 0 Level spells at will. That's the point of an orison/cantrip.

I really do not believe that.
Its not mentioned anywhere, and theres a reason 0's are listed in Spells known and Spells Per Day.

Togath
2011-07-14, 12:39 AM
In the pathfinder system, at least, all casters can cast lvl 0 spells at will. I dont think 3.5 DnD casters can though., So both lvl 0 at will and lvl0 spells per day are correct depending on the system.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-07-14, 12:41 AM
In the pathfinder system, at least, all casters can cast lvl 0 spells at will. I dont think 3.5 DnD casters can though.

... Then I just learned another reason why I like Pathfinder better. None the less, every things for 3.5, so I'll stick with it and take from Pathfinder when I can.

SamBurke
2011-07-14, 12:45 AM
Snap, wut? Wow. Sorry, there, Cipher. Pathfinder is indeed awesome. Level 0 spells that are not at will? OUCH. Can someone say nerfed spellcasters? (Kinda. Not.)

Veklim
2011-07-14, 09:54 AM
Snap, wut? Wow. Sorry, there, Cipher. Pathfinder is indeed awesome. Level 0 spells that are not at will? OUCH. Can someone say nerfed spellcasters? (Kinda. Not.)

This is true, and yet surely spellcasters NEED a good nerfing (sounds rude when you say it like that...) on account of their general over-powered nature. Never-the-less, @will cantrips/orisons do make a lot of sense, with the one and only problem of cure/inflict minor being RIDICULOUSLY abusable as a result. Be careful what you port between 3.5 and pathfinder, for all their vast similarities, there are a few minor but vital differences which could screw over an entire campaign in relatively short order unless you flag them up.

DracoDei
2011-07-14, 11:00 AM
I thought PF made it so Cure Minor doesn't heal any hitpoints, it merely auto-stabilizes?

SamBurke
2011-07-14, 11:07 AM
I don't even remember it, but I rarely play pure clerics. As to that, it's a cantrip. At best, it means that you'll eventually be able to heal after all encounters.

DracoDei
2011-07-14, 11:36 AM
...l eventually be able to heal after all encounters.
Some people consider that to be non-trivial, at least at lower levels.

SamBurke
2011-07-14, 11:52 AM
True, but still.

D_Lord
2011-07-14, 02:22 PM
I like this class, reminds me of Je dit Viola. Very nice, still this is a class for a roleplayer, and powergame would fall so fast, that they break the ground when they hit.

SamBurke
2011-07-14, 02:30 PM
You're saying it's too weak for a powergamer, or too strong?

D_Lord
2011-07-14, 02:47 PM
I'm saying about all the powergames I know, do evil things, or semi evil things, or as with the Paladin the class is made to fall, lots of powergamers if they can take paladin levels only for their use in blackguards.

SamBurke
2011-07-14, 10:08 PM
Well, that's their OOC fault. When my Paladins fall, it's because I want them to fall, or deliberately do something that might make them fall as a character issue.

But agreed. This class has that added to make sure powergamers can't misuse.

Veklim
2011-07-15, 01:29 PM
I thought PF made it so Cure Minor doesn't heal any hitpoints, it merely auto-stabilizes?

It does, but if you merely port over the bits of PF you like, you miss these things out. It was merely a cautionary comment, nothing more.

It's perfectly possible to powergame a LG character by the way, just means more RP effort on behalf of the player, and I find most of the serious powergamers I come across aren't too hot on their RP.


When my Paladins fall, it's because I want them to fall, or deliberately do something that might make them fall...

I never do this, if my paladin is going to fall, it's because my DM has set up a situation where I'm likely to do something horrendous in the name of righteousness and good. I've always preferred it that way, since to become a paladin you are not only 'chosen', but then have to undergo rigorous mental and physical training. This is not something done by whimsical or uncertain characters in my experience, let alone the fact that deliberately doing something which may make you fall is certainly not usual behaviour for a holy warrior who derives abilities from his adherance to a strict moral code...

Thus endeth mine two pence. :smallbiggrin:

SamBurke
2011-07-15, 07:10 PM
I never do this, if my paladin is going to fall, it's because my DM has set up a situation where I'm likely to do something horrendous in the name of righteousness and good. I've always preferred it that way, since to become a paladin you are not only 'chosen', but then have to undergo rigorous mental and physical training. This is not something done by whimsical or uncertain characters in my experience, let alone the fact that deliberately doing something which may make you fall is certainly not usual behaviour for a holy warrior who derives abilities from his adherance to a strict moral code...


Technically, only did this once, because of a special setup. (If any other players who know who Corin Thunderfist is are reading, stop now!).

Corin didn't actually want to be a paladin, the death of his paladin brother Cor (due to Corin's own handiwork, long story) forced him to, because of family inheritance and tradition.