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Chambers
2011-06-26, 09:35 AM
Kuji-Kiri
The Nine Symbolic Cuts


http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery1/44243_C1_rogue.jpg
"Ninja? Bah! Old peasants tales, nothing more."

The Temple of the Nine Swords was not the only place where martial disciplines were taught. There have been other schools and teachers that practice different styles and different methods of spreading their tradition. Lesser known schools may be part of a local cultural heritage or be a fighting technique that simply never gained serious recognition. The art of Kuji-Kiri is none of those, as the knowledge of it's technique's was considered illegal in the country of it's origin. Developed for the sole purpose of silent assassination, the users of this fighting method were killed wherever the government found them. The discipline went underground and silently removed itself from the eyes of the world, while the government claimed that the fighters were dead, that the shadow warriors died centuries ago.

The ninja wouldn't have it any other way.

Forced to practice their forbidden art in secrecy and silence, the followers of the nine symbolic cuts that is Kuji-Kiri kept out of public awareness, though they did not stop their killing. The government continues to deny the existence of the ninja and the ninja continue to creep through the night, delivering silent death.

The Kuji-Kiri discipline's associated skill is Sleight of Hand, as the practioners seek to master the hand movements that allow them to break the bonds of natural world. The associated weapons of the Kuji-Kiri discipline are the hand crossbow, blow gun, kama, kukri, nunchaku, sai, short bow, short sword, shuriken, and siangham. Many of the associated weapons are exotic weapons and when a martial adept initiates a Kuji-Kiri maneuver with an exotic weapon for which he does not have the Exotic Wepaon Proficiency feat, he does not take the -4 penalty for non-proficiency. This only applies when using a Kuji-Kiri exotic weapon with a Kuji-Kiri maneuver.

As the Kuji-Kiri discipline was not taught at the Temple of the Nine Swords it is rare to encounter martial adepts outside the shadow tradition that are even aware of the discipline. Only Swordsages can start with Kuji-Kiri as one of their disciplines known. Swordsages must give up one of their known discplines in order to gain access to Kuji-Kiri. A swordsage that starts with the Kuji-Kiri discipline gains Sleight of Hand as a Swordsage class skill.

Other martial adepts, including Swordsages that did not start with knowledge of the Kuji-Kiri discipline, must be taught the secrets of the discpline by a follower of Kuji-Kiri. The teacher must have knowledge of 5th level Kuji-Kiri maneuvers and the training requires a month to complete. Afterwards the martial adept may learn Kuji-Kiri maneuvers normally, including replacing known maneuvers with different maneuvers.

Chambers
2011-06-26, 09:36 AM
Maneuver List

1st Level
Silencing Tactic (Boost) Next attack silences target.
Ki Dodge (Counter) 50% miss chance against one attack.
Light as a Feather (Stance) Climb faster and jump higher.
Sudden Strike (Strike) Deal +2d6 damage +1/initiator level.

2nd Level
Deadly Dose (Boost) Apply poison as swift action.
Ghost Step (Counter) Avoid attack, turn invisible until start of your turn.
Stunning Blow (Strike) Deal +2d6 damage, attack stuns creature.

3rd Level
Ghost Hand Feint (Boost) Use Sleight of Hand to feint in combat.
Ghost Sight (Stance) See invisible/ethereal creatures, ignore concealment.
Hypnotic Gestures (Counter) Confuse one attacker.
Pain Touch (Strike) Strength damage, attack nauseates creature.

4th Level
Call the Shadows (Boost) Hide in Plain Sight for 1 round.
Greater Ki Dodge (Counter) Avoid attack, turn ethereal until start of your turn.
Improved Sudden Strike (Strike) Deal +6d6 damage +1/initiator level.

5th Level
Ghost Touch (Boost) Attack ethereal creatures normally.
Empty Hand (Counter) Deflect arrows and other projectiles.
Speed of Darkness (Stance) Bonus to speed, fast stealth.
Crippling Fear (Strike) +4d6 damage, Attack causes creature to cower.

6th Level
Knife in the Back (Strike) Deal +10d6 damage, creature flat-footed for 1 round.
Reflected Shadows (Counter) Avoid attack, create shadow duplicates.
Vanish (Boost) Turn ethereal until end of your turn.

7th Level
Greater Ghost Step (Boost) Gain superior invisibility.
Easy Target (Counter) Attack foe with quick strike.
Fade Into Shadows (Strike) Deal +12d6 damage, move your speed and hide in plain sight.

8th Level
No Mind (Counter) Defeat scrying attempts.
Ghost Walk (Stance) Become ethereal, move faster.
Cut the Heart Strings (Strike) Deal +14d6 damage, attack deals Constitution damage.

9th Level
Burst of Shadows (Counter) Avoid attack, discorporate and create shadow duplicates that attack.
Final Lesson (Strike) Deal +20d6 damage, creature must save versus death.

Chambers
2011-06-26, 09:37 AM
Stances
Light as a Feather
Kuji-Kiri (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 1
Prerequisite: 1 Kuji-Kiri maneuver
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Through rigorous and strenuous training, the swordsage learns to control and manipulate his body allowing him to defy gravity.

While in this stance any jumps you make are considered running jumps and you act as if you had the Run feat, granting you a +4 bonus on the jump check. With a succesful climb check you may climb your speed as a move action and you only need one hand to climb. In addition you receive an insight bonus on Climb, Jump, and Tumble checks equal to twice your initiator level.

Ghost Sight
Kuji-Kiri (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 3
Prerequisite: 1 Kuji-Kiri maneuver
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

The ninja does not rely on only what his eyes show him. Through intense practice you have mastered the art of seeing with your third, mystical eye. While in this stance you gain the benefits of the See Invisibility spell. In addition you ignore all miss chances while in this stance.

At Initiator Level 11 this stance grants you the benefit of the True Seeing spell instead of See Invisibility.

Speed of Darkness
Kuji-Kiri (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 5
Prerequisite: 2 Kuji-Kiri maneuvers
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

The ninja is fast and silent, moving through darkness as a shadow flitting between points of light. While in this stance you gain a +30ft insight bonus to your speed. In addition you take no penalty on Hide and Move Silently checks when moving, including running.

Ghost Walk
Kuji-Kiri (Stance)
Level: Swordsage 8
Prerequisite: 3 Kuji-Kiri maneuvers
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

The material world holds no secrets to the ninja as he can flit back and forth between the prime and the ethereal with but a moments thought. While in this stance you gain the benefits of the Ethereal Jaunt spell except that you can move at full speed, your vision and hearing range is doubled from 60ft to 120ft and you make attacks as if using a ghost touch weapon.
Strikes
Sudden Strike
Kuji-Kiri (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 1
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee or Ranged attack
Target: One flat-footed creature

Attacking an unaware or distracted target is the trademark of the ninja. Hitting from the shadows and slinking back into them is how they became legend.

As part of this maneuver you make a single melee or ranged attack. This attack deals an extra 2d6 damage, plus 1 point per initiator level. This maneuver only works against a flat-footed target. You must be within 30ft of your target to use this maneuver as a ranged attack.

Stunning Blow
Kuji-Kiri (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 2
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One flat-footed creature

Attacking while your enemy has his guard down, you deliver a powerful blow that may knock him senseless.

As part of this maneuver you make a single melee attack. This attack deals an extra +2d6 damage and the target must make a fortitude save (DC 10+ 1/2 Initiator Level+ Wisdom Modifier) or be stunned for 1 round. If the save succeeds the target is merely shaken for 1 round. This maneuver only works against a flat-footed target.

Pain Touch
Kuji-Kiri (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 3
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee or Ranged attack
Target: One living creature

There are weak points on the body, places where an accurate strike can cause a creature to collapse, overburned with pain.

As part of this maneuver you make a single melee or ranged attack. In addition to normal damage the target takes 6 points of Strength damage and must make a fortitude save (DC 10+ 1/2 Initiator Level+ Wisdom Modifier) or be nauseated for 1 round. You must be within 30ft of your target to use this maneuver as a ranged attack.

Improved Sudden Strike
Kuji-Kiri (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 4
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee or Ranged attack
Target: One flat-footed creature

As part of this maneuver you make a single melee or ranged attack. This attack deals an extra 6d6 damage, plus 1 point per initiator level. This maneuver only works against a flat-footed target. You must be within 30ft of your target to use this maneuver as a ranged attack.

Crippling Fear
Kuji-Kiri (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 5
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee or Ranged attack
Target: One flat-footed creature

The ninja works with silence and shadow, but fear is among one of her most potent weapons. Commonly regarded as nothing more than a legend, the ninja uses this myth to frighten her foes when she reveals herself.

As part of this manevuer you make a single melee or ranged attack. This attack deals an extra 4d6 damage and the target must make a will saving throw (DC 10+ 1/2 Initiator Level+ Wisdom Modifier) or cower for 1 round. If the save succeed's the target is merely shaken for 1 round. You must be within 30ft of your target to use this maneuver as a ranged attack. This maneuver only works against a flat-footed target. This maneuver is a supernatural fear ability.

Knife in the Back
Kuji-Kiri (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 6
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: One flat-footed creature

Sliding up behind your target, you strike quickly while he is distracted. Overwhelmed by the pain, he's unable to stop you as you step back into the shadows.

As part of this maneuver you make a single melee attack. This attack deals an extra 10d6 damage and the target is flat-footed until the end of your next turn. This maneuver only works against a flat-footed target.

Fade into Shadows
Kuji-Kiri (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 7
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee or Ranged attack
Target: One flat-footed creature

Attacking from the shadows, you land a devastating blow and swiftly retreat to the enveloping darkness.

As part of this maneuver you make a single melee attack or ranged attack. This attack deals an extra 12d6 damage and after the attack you may move your speed and make a Hide check while being observed and without the need for cover or concealment. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Cut the Heart Strings
Kuji-Kiri (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 8
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee or Ranged attack
Target: One living creature

Some attacks do not require stealth in order to be deadly. Knowing the precise spot to strike, you lash out at your opponents heart.

As part of this maneuver you make a single melee or ranged attack. This attack deals an extra 14d6 damage and the target must make a fortitude save (DC 10+ 1/2 Initiator Level+ Wisdom Modifier) or take 1d6 Constitution damage. If the save succeeds the target is instead staggered for 1 round.

Final Lesson
Kuji-Kiri (Strike)
Level: Swordsage 9
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee or Ranged attack
Target: One living creature

The most powerful strike the ninja learns does not just target the body, but also the mind and soul. Piercing all three in a horrendous attack, those that survive the initial onslaught often die from the overwhelming shock and trauma to their body and soul.

As part of this maneuver you make a single melee or ranged attack. This attack deals an extra 20d6 damage and the target must make a fortitude save (DC 10+ 1/2 Initiator Level+ Wisdom Modifier) or die. If the save succeeds the target takes an additional 15d6 damage.

Counters
Ki Dodge
Kuji-Kiri (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 1
Initiative Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

In the instant before the strike, you shift and cause your form to waver, hoping to dodge your enemies attack.

You can use this maneuver when an enemy attacks you. You gain 50% concealment against the triggering attack. You must be conscious and aware of the attack, not flat-footed, in order to use this maneuver. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Ghost Step
Kuji-Kiri (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 2
Initiative Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

The proper hand gesture can trigger a shift in your material body, rending you invisible to sight.

You can use this maneuver when an enemy attacks you. You must be conscious and aware of the attack, not flat-footed. Make a Sleight of Hand check with a DC equal to your opponents attack roll. If you succeed then you dodge the attack and gain the benefit of the Greater Invisibility spell until the start of your next turn. You may take a 5ft step after turning invisible. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Hypnotic Gestures
Kuji-Kiri (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 3
Initiative Action: 1 immediate action
Range: One creature within 30ft
Target: One creature

The unprotected mind is weak and easy to befuddle. In an instant before your enemy strikes you cast doubt into his mind.

You can use this maneuver when an enemy attacks you. You must be conscious and aware of the attack, not flat-footed. Make a Sleight of Hand check with a DC equal to your opponents AC. If you succeed then the target must make a Will saving throw (DC 10+ 1/2 Initiator Level+ Wisdom Modifier) or be confused until the end of your next turn. This maneuver is a mind-affecting, supernatural ability.

Greater Ki Dodge
Kuji-Kiri (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 4
Initiative Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

You can use this maneuver when an enemy attacks you. Make a Sleight of Hand check with a DC equal to your opponents attack roll. If you succeed then you dodge the attack and turn ethereal until the start of your next turn. You must be conscious and aware of the attack, not flat-footed, in order to use this maneuver. You may take a 5ft step after turning ethereal. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Empty Hand
Kuji-Kiri (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 5
Initiative Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

Trained to react to danger before they are consciously aware of it, the ninja can pluck arrows out of the air and knock them aside.

You can use this maneuver when an enemy attacks you with a ranged weapon. You may deflect the projectile and take no damage from it. Massive ranged weapons cannot be deflected. This maneuver may be used while you are flat-footed. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

At Initiator Level 15 you may deflect targeted spells and massive ranged weapons.

At Initiator Level 20 any attack you deflect with this maneuver is reflected back at the attacker using your ranged attack bonus.

Reflected Shadows
Kuji-Kiri (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 6
Initiative Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

The ninja learns to live with the shadows, and they within him. For a few brief moments he can call them from him to do his bidding.

You can use this maneuver when an enemy attack you. Make a Sleight of Hand check with a DC equal to your opponents attack roll. If you succeed then you dodge the attack and create shadow duplicates that last until the end of your next turn. These shadow duplicates function as the spell Mirror Image, using your Initiator Level as your Caster Level. You must be conscious and aware of the attack, not flat-footed, in order to use this maneuver. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Easy Target
Kuji-Kiri (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 7
Initiative Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Melee or Ranged attack
Target: One creature

As your ally strikes your enemy, you find a gap in his defenses and exploit it to your advantage.

You can use this maneuver when an ally (not yourself) hits an enemy with a melee attack. You may make an attack of opportunity against that enemy, and you may use any Kuji-Kiri strike that has an initiation action of 1 standard action for your attack of opportunity. The target is considered flat-footed for this attack.

No Mind
Kuji-Kiri (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 8
Initiative Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

As the ninja hides from sight, they also hide from the mind and powers of the mind.

You may use this maneuver when someone attempts to scry on you. Make a Sleight of Hand check with a DC equal to the scryers Caster Level. If you succeed then the scrying attempt fails. If the scrying spell targets an area that the ninja is in then the spell works but the ninja isn't detected. This manuever is a supernatural ability.

Burst of Shadows
Kuji-Kiri (Counter)
Level: Swordsage 9
Initiative Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You

Cloaked in living shadow, the ninja breathes in night and exhales death.

You may use this maneuver when an enemy attack you. Make a Sleight of Hand check with a DC equal to your opponents attack roll. If you succeed then you dodge the attack, discorporate into shadows, and create shadow duplicates that attack your enemies. While discorporated you do not exist. No creature has line of effect or line of sight to you. You remain discorporated until the start of your next turn.

The shadow duplicates function as the spell Mirror Image, using your Initiator Level as your Caster Level. Each of the shadow duplicates makes a single melee or ranged attack at the enemy that attacked you. The shadow duplicates attack bonus is equal to your initiator level and each attack deals 8d6 damage. The enemy is considered flat-footed for these attacks.

You must be conscious and aware of the attack, not flat-footed, in order to use this maneuver. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Boosts
Silencing Tactic
Kuji-Kiri (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 1
Initiative Action: 1 swift action
Range: Melee or Ranged attack
Target: One creature

Focusing your ki, you prepare to strike out at your enemy, silencing his voice.

Make a Sleight of Hand check with a DC equal to the targets AC. If you succeed then your next attack silences your target, rendering him unable to speak until the start of your next turn. A fortitude save (DC 10+ 1/2 Initiator Level+ Wisdom Modifier) negates the effect. You must hit with the attack for the target to be silenced. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Deadly Dose
Kuji-Kiri (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 2
Initiative Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You

Hours of practice with blade and cloth have honed your reflexes to an unconscious level. It takes almost no effort to ready a blade for a deadly strike.

As part of this manevuer you may draw and apply a poison to a weapon.

Ghost Hand Feint
Kuji-Kiri (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 3
Initiative Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You

The hand gestures of Kuji-Kiri are more than mere ritual practice. Done correctly they can upset your opponents balance and ready him for your next strike.

As part of this maneuver you may feint in combat, making a Sleight of Hand check instead of Bluff. The target resists the attempt normally. If the feint succeeds the target is flat-footed against your next attack.

Call the Shadows
Kuji-Kiri (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 4
Initiative Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You

Without a word you form your hands and vanish from sight.

Until the start of your next turn you may hide in plain sight. You may make a Hide check while being observed and without the need for cover or concealment. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Ghost Touch
Kuji-Kiri (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 5
Initiative Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You

As the ninja learns to hide in the ethereal, so to does he learn to strike out at those that do the same.

Until the end of your turn all attacks you make affect invisible and ethereal creatures normally. For invisible creatures you must still locate which square they are in, but your attacks suffer no miss chance.

Vanish
Kuji-Kiri (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 6
Initiative Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You

Sliding into another form of existence, you easily bypass the constraints of the material world.

You turn ethereal until the end of your turn. In addition any attacks you make affect material creatures normally.

Greater Ghost Step
Kuji-Kiri (Boost)
Level: Swordsage 7
Initiative Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You

The ninja tricks her enemies minds and forces her body to shift phases, granting her superior stealth.

You turn invisible, as the Superior Invisibility spell (SpC) until the end of your turn. This maneuver is a supernatural ability.

Shadow Lord
2011-06-26, 09:45 AM
Isn't normal that there is only one Ninth level maneuver?

Chambers
2011-06-26, 09:53 AM
Yep. Don't see why there couldn't be more than one though.

Mayhem
2011-06-26, 10:37 AM
I really like the idea of doing this, nice work!

Light as a Feather stance is a bit strong, perhaps the bonus to tumble et al should only be 1/initiator level?
Silencing tactics is also quite strong I thought, as it's very easy to get insane skill modifiers.

Chambers
2011-06-26, 12:21 PM
I really like the idea of doing this, nice work!

Light as a Feather stance is a bit strong, perhaps the bonus to tumble et al should only be 1/initiator level?
Silencing tactics is also quite strong I thought, as it's very easy to get insane skill modifiers.

I'll add a fort save to negate the silence.

The movement skill bonuses aren't really a balance issue as a simple fly spell provides better mobility.

DracoDei
2011-06-26, 12:26 PM
Age of Warriors precedent recommends a charge of 1,000 XPs for adding a discipline at a later time above the normal count for a class (and even then I THINK it has to be listed as associated with that class).
Any particular reason you bucked the first?
I really have no idea about the second... we (meaning the AoW team, which you would be welcome to join) may need to clarify that.

Sorting the maneuvers by type is... a good experiment, it will be interesting to see if people like it (I will reserve my own opinions at this time so as not to bias the results).

OracleofSilence
2011-06-26, 12:27 PM
Ghost Walk seems a little strong for something usable once per encounter. Maybe cut the duration or force concentration checks?

Chambers
2011-06-26, 12:44 PM
I dropped the XP cost because I think its unnecessary. Casters don't pay xp to learn spells, why should warriors pay xp to learn a discipline? Also, saw no reason to prevent warblades or crusaders from learning it.

Ghost walk is a stance, so not sure what you mean.

OracleofSilence
2011-06-26, 01:57 PM
crap, misread that one.

but yeah, i see your point. I should probably test it before i criticize.

DracoDei
2011-06-26, 02:05 PM
I dropped the XP cost because I think its unnecessary. Casters don't pay xp to learn spells, why should warriors pay xp to learn a discipline?
Well, clerics get their whole list (may count against me...), sorcerers support my point, they have to spend a FEAT to exceed their spells known (a feat that rapidly goes stale), and wizards have to pay GPs and can fail their Spellcraft checks (trivial problems at higher levels, not so much at lower levels, but 1,000 XPs get less and less valuable at higher levels.).

Also, saw no reason to prevent warblades or crusaders from learning it.
Well, since you are basically giving it away for free (minus some fluff that I suspect many GMs will ignore, especially in backstory when designing higher level characters...)

Chambers
2011-06-26, 03:15 PM
I guess my main reason was that gaining it later is something that has to be worked out with the DM anyway, so i'd leave any mechanical requirements up to them. And as you said, 1000xp isn't much when you get to higher levels, so why have it there in the first place? At lower levels when it matters its just putting the warrior even farther behind the casters on the power curve, which is something to be avoided.

Edit:

Also, as to why I grouped the maneuvers into their different categories instead of listing them by level, I decided that having two listings by level was redundant. There's already a list of the maneuvers by level in the second post. Arranging them by classification provides another way of searching and finding the maneuvers. I know that I've been frustrated sometimes when I want to find just the boosts, or just the counters, and it strains my eyes scanning everything to find it.

So there's two methods of presenting the maneuvers - by level and by classification.

elliott20
2011-06-27, 05:46 AM
The reason why we require a discipline be associated with a class is so that we don't inadvertently allow martial initiates to learn disciplines that clearly goes against their flavor. If we were to allow people to learn any of the NEW discipline with so little restriction, why restrict what they can learn from the original schools then? That's why we require associations. Having said that, I don't think we managed to establish what every discipline association is. A general rule of thumb is that if the fluff of the discipline feels interchangeable with an existing one or is close enough to an existing one, it is associated. So, Crusaders can learn White Raven, but also it's counterpart Scarlet Bravura. (Although, to be honest, I'm beginning to think that we could just drop the rule and put in it's place a "at GM's discretion" clause)

As for 1000 xp, I felt it was a simple solution. You're right, at high levels it makes very little difference, but it's a point of concession there. Initially, we toyed with the idea of spending a feat. But we felt that was too expensive.

However, giving it away free also means that every new character will start off with not the pre-selected 3-6, but all 20+ disciplines that have been archived. This action is as much for the GM to have less of a headache, as it is to make sure that if a player REALLY wants to learn it, he has to make spend a token cost. It also represents an attempt to unify the narrative and mechanical aspects of people requiring extra dedication to learn something new. (But not so much that you take a new class)

Plus, there is already a precedent for this in the "Quintessential Monk Guide", where PCs can learn new powers by spending XP.

Of course, we could make the requirement more stringent and charge the player XP based on level. (i.e. 1000 * martial initiator level, which really rewards early adaption)

This discipline actually could fit very well in the AoW project, if Chambers is so inclined. If this discipline WERE to be added to the AoW project, it would fall under the same learning rule.

Chambers
2011-06-27, 06:55 AM
The reason why we require a discipline be associated with a class is so that we don't inadvertently allow martial initiates to learn disciplines that clearly goes against their flavor. If we were to allow people to learn any of the NEW discipline with so little restriction, why restrict what they can learn from the original schools then? That's why we require associations.

The classes can learn disciplines that "go against their flavor". Warblades & Swordsages can learn Devoted Spirit (Eternal Blade), Crusaders & Warblades can learn Desert Wind (Jade Phoenix Mage), Crusaders can learn Shadow Hand (Ruby Knight Vindicator), and anyone can learn any maneuver (Martial Knowledge & Master of Nine). All this non-thematic discipline learning happens around the mid-levels (6-10), which is approaching the point where someone could get trained by someone that knows 5th level maneuvers.

While it's clear that the classes have thematic differences, it's also evident that the classes aren't restricted to those themes. I think that's pretty clear here, with Shadow Hand Crusaders and Devoted Spirit Warblades.

To anticipate your argument that those are Prestige Classes or Feats (in other words some kind of mechanical cost), yeah, that's true. But why do we have to keep it that way? As I mentioned earlier, having the ability to add a discipline at higher levels is only hurting that warrior by placing him possiblye back a level (if you spend the 1,000xp at the wrong time).

I want to make it clear that it's not my intention for PC's to go willy-nilly and grab every single discipline that they can simply because there's no mechanical cost. Take what's appropriate for the character, work with the DM whenever acquiring a discipline, and lets not let mechanical burdens get in the way.


However, giving it away free also means that every new character will start off with not the pre-selected 3-6, but all 20+ disciplines that have been archived.

I don't understand how the character would have 20+ disciplines as each homebrew discipline added takes the place of one of the regular disciplines (so there's no net change in the number of disciplines known). AoW may do it differently, but check my OP: "Only Swordsages can start with Kuji-Kiri as one of their disciplines known. Swordsages must give up one of their known discplines in order to gain access to Kuji-Kiri."


This action is as much for the GM to have less of a headache, as it is to make sure that if a player REALLY wants to learn it, he has to make spend a token cost.

Right now the token cost is in a month of down-time. For some games that's important, other's not. Again, I think it's best to leave it up to the DM, but I'm fine with no mechanical requirements, because they're not gaining something in addition to what they already know; they're are gaining something to replace what they alread know.


This discipline actually could fit very well in the AoW project, if Chambers is so inclined. If this discipline WERE to be added to the AoW project, it would fall under the same learning rule.

This is weird. Are you talking to me or about me? In either way, I'd love to be linked from the list of Disciplines on the first page, I use the AoW post all the time. However, I'm not adding any XP or mechanical requirements.

Edit:

Clarification. I don't think the different disciplines is the major thing separating the classes; there's enough overlap in which are given to starting classes, and given how classes can get disciplines they didnt start with, that the one special discipline that each has isn't the main source of their flavor.

I think the main flavor or theme for the classes comes from how many maneuvers they know/readied and their recovery mechanic. The crusader is divinely inspired, the swordsage is like a mage, and the warblade gets his power from martial training. The particular disciplines aren't that important as long as if fits the theme of the character being developed (a divinely inspired assassin [crusader shadow hand] or a warrior with elemental fire powers [desert sun warblade]).

Callos_DeTerran
2011-06-27, 09:56 AM
The classes can learn disciplines that "go against their flavor". Warblades & Swordsages can learn Devoted Spirit (Eternal Blade), Crusaders & Warblades can learn Desert Wind (Jade Phoenix Mage), Crusaders can learn Shadow Hand (Ruby Knight Vindicator), and anyone can learn any maneuver (Martial Knowledge & Master of Nine). All this non-thematic discipline learning happens around the mid-levels (6-10), which is approaching the point where someone could get trained by someone that knows 5th level maneuvers.

While it's clear that the classes have thematic differences, it's also evident that the classes aren't restricted to those themes. I think that's pretty clear here, with Shadow Hand Crusaders and Devoted Spirit Warblades.

I can't chime in on the rest of this, for the most part, but I can offer my opinion on this. There IS some precedent for 'universal' disciplines that each of the classes can take, that being Stone Dragon. If Kuji-Kiri is meant to be a 'universal' discipline then that's cool I suppose, but it doesn't really feel like one.

To discuss your example, there's a big difference between 'the classes aren't restricted to those themes' and 'they have a cost'. To use Shadow Hand Crusaders and Devoted Spirit Warblades, they have to expend significant resources to gain access to those disciplines. Martial Study/Stance can, at most, give a character three manuevers and one stance from a discipline that they can't normally take. Meanwhile, taking RKV or Eternal Blade is an example of devoting one's self to a new path. A Warblade that stops taking levels in Eternal Blade can't keep getting Devoted Spirit maneuvers unless he spends feats on Martial Study or starts taking Crusader class levels.

On the reverse side, a Crusader can't continue to gain Shadow Hand maneuvers if he/she stops taking levels in a class that grants access to that discipline except by using feats. So classes ARE kinda bound thematically to the disciplines they're associated with, cause to gain access to more requires a change in the theme of the character. Master of the Nine being the obvious exception, it's MEANT to allow access to all 9, that's the entire draw of it.

elliott20
2011-06-27, 10:46 AM
Chambers, I'm just trying to explain my rationale.

Anyway, what I meant by the discipline learning rule is just a standard thing. you don't need to modify your post. I'm just saying that we apply the rule across the board for ease.

And Callos pretty said what I wanted to say much better.

Chambers
2011-06-27, 11:54 AM
Sorry for being a bit defensive.

Because access to disciplines is a mutable thing, I'm not too worried about letting characters have easier access to this discipline. While the initially restricted disciplines do add to the flavor of each class, I see the core of the class identity being how they use maneuvers (recovery mechanic, etc). And there is a nod to class restricted disciplines here (only swordsages can start with it), but I wanted to open it up for the other classes because I could see the other martial adepts also training in this style; it just wouldn't be intuitive or part if their normal training.

Also, on comments/critiques on the mechanics of the maneuvers?

DracoDei
2011-06-27, 12:02 PM
This is weird. Are you talking to me or about me? In either way, I'd love to be linked from the list of Disciplines on the first page,
What he meant is when we are writing up the fluff for the project, or constructing the wiki, can we use this discipline?

EDIT: It also means potentially mixing it into such things as the Master of Ones (We have two classes by that name last I checked), Ruby Knight Vindicator, and so on and so forth. I mention these because they are crunch, not fluff.

Chambers
2011-06-27, 12:37 PM
What he meant is when we are writing up the fluff for the project, or constructing the wiki, can we use this discipline?

EDIT: It also means potentially mixing it into such things as the Master of Ones (We have two classes by that name last I checked), Ruby Knight Vindicator, and so on and so forth. I mention these because they are crunch, not fluff.

Oh, yeah. That'd be cool.

It should mix fine. At its heart its still just another discipline, so if it didn't play well with prestige classes and the like that'd be a problem.

DracoDei
2011-06-27, 01:08 PM
Oh, yeah. That'd be cool.
Thank you!

It should mix fine. At its heart its still just another discipline, so if it didn't play well with prestige classes and the like that'd be a problem.
Short version:
A pair of feats (the tactical one, and the one that is the prerequisite for that, would be helpful). We can then work on THIS little problem (always a tough nut to crack for a discipline, but frequently worth it), which I THINK is still part of AoW.

Long version:
Actually, it may or may not mix with certain of the items I mentioned, but if it doesn't it either won't be a problem or just the way the cookie crumbles.
An example of "Not Actually A Problem":
The RKV variants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=139711) pair up gods with disciplines, although more than one god COULD use the same discipline in theory (we managed to avoid it so far).

Examples of the second focus around The Master of One prestige classes to my knowledge:
By ErrantX (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111332) - Requires the non-tactical feat.
By PairO'Dice Lost (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134165) - Requires the tactical feat (and by extension, if one follows tradition, the non-tactical feat as well) PLUS a custom designed class ability for people who focus on your discipline AND a separate custom designed class feature for someone who wants to be able to defeat people who use your discipline. We MAY be able to copy paste from Shadow-Hand or something.

elliott20
2011-06-27, 09:04 PM
Sorry Chambers, as you can see, I'm not the most effective communicator at times, mostly due to the fact that in terms of raw knowledge, I think the other members of the AoW team pretty much blows me out of the water.

Anyway, I'm going to take a closer look at the discipline to see if I can give any meaningful feedback on the mechanics themselves. At a first glance, it looks pretty good, barring the absence of the feats.