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Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-29, 01:50 PM
http://www.anihub.com/uploads_user/32000/31912/19385_thumb.jpg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204658)
Tendersoul----------------





The Voidsoul
http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/10400000/Dragon-Slayer-black-E2-98-85rock-shooter-10432669-225-350.jpg

"There were children in that temple!"
"So?" - Kael the Voidsoul

Voidsouls... The ultimate in pure and unwavering evil, slaughter, and carelessness in any form of morality. They are devoid of all light, beings of darkness even the Goddess would have a hard time forgiving. They are the merciless killers who burn down orphanages because one way or another they felt like it. Maybe one of the orphans there was blood descendant of some grant granddaddy who looked at her granddaddy funny. Theres is a quest to be better then everyone else, and enslave all to they're bidding. They all are quite predictable that way. They serve the Emperor, for now. Everyone of them plots against even him.

Adventures: A Voidsoul doesn't "Adventure". They Quest. They quest for power, for fun, for entertainment, and most of all to kill, to maim, and cripple the lives of others. The more they can ruin the more fulfillment they feel. The worst part about a Voidsoul is they do not always know they are evil. Some crush others in a self righteous sense that in doing so they take they're dreams onto her back for her to carry on to Eternity, to reach they're goals for them in the darkest way possible. Most commonly, they adventure to do all the above, but only as a sideline to they're greater purpose which is to rise above mortality, and rise above the gods. Power. is what they adventure for, and they don't care who they have to step on to get it.

Characteristics: Unholy dedication to darkness gives the Voidsoul strength and power. It sharpens they're blade and corrupts they're being until all that remains one day is a soulless creature of shadow that brings nothing but death can never be trusted. Voidsouls kill maim and destroy, thats they're game.

Alignment: Lawful Evil. The Voidsoul isn't 'dedicated' to evil, She desires it. She relishes in corruption and unhappiness in others, they have absolutely no consciousness or value for life but they're own. They are an embodiment of evil.

Religion: Voidsouls believe in themselves, and they're quest for power. However many start off corrupted into the mission by the dark voice of the Emperor. An overdiety who finds nothing better then to whisper darkness into the souls of mortals. Eventually most Voidsouls believe they leave his whispers. but hes always there, guiding they're actions twisting they're motives, and keeping them shrouded in darkness. Even the ones who manage to tear away from his influence are of no concern to him. as they do his work anyway in the ruin they bring.

Background: Becoming a Voidsoul isn't something you do. Its what you are. Voidsouls from young ages always here whisperings in the night, thoughts of malice and discontent. Violence is in they're very being from the start. It just takes a while for them to fully embrace the Dark Whispers. Making the final connection to the Voidsoul can happen at anytime in the Voidsoul's life, but they've generally always had the whispers.

Races: Any intelligent race can become a Voidsoul. Even angels or celestial creatures that had once been corrupted by a Voidsoul and tempt them out of they're righteous life. The Emperor doesn't care, it doesn't matter if your an elf, angel or gnome. All are beings capable of great evil, any race can become a Voidsoul.

Other Classes: Voidsouls care nothing about the companions they associate with, as long as they are adept and usable the Voidsoul will cooperate long enough to get a job done.

Game Rule Information

Abilities: Charisma is most important to the Voidsoul. They're abilities stem from having a high presence to the point they absolutely radiate fear, despair, and darkness to those around them.

Alignment: Lawful Evil

Hit Die: d6

Class Skills: The Voidsoul’s class skills are... Survival (Wis), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Knowledge: The Planes, Nobility & Royalty, Arcana, History (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Concentration (Con).

Skill Points at 1st Level: ( 4+ Int Modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+ Int Modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+2|Cause Fear 3/day, Emperor's Bribe, Aura of Evil, Morality|6|3+D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+0|
+3|Atonement 1/day, Corruption Hold|6|5+D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|
+3|
+2|
+1|
+3|Cause Fear 4/day, Unholy Vitality|6|5+D|2+D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|
+3|
+2|
+1|
+4|Atonement 2/day, Emperor's Bribe|6|5+D|4+D|-|-|-

5th|
+4|
+2|
+1|
+4|Cause Fear 5/day, Turn Good|6|5+D|4+D|2+D|-|-

6th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Atonement 3/day, Corruption Hold|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|-|-

7th|
+6|
+2|
+2|
+5|Cause Fear 6/day, Morality |6|5+D|4+D|4+D|2+D|-

8th|
+6|
+2|
+2|
+6|Atonement 4/day, Word of Darkness, Emperor's Bribe|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|-

9th|
+7|
+3|
+3|
+6|Cause Fear At will|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|2+D

10th|
+8|
+3|
+3|
+7|Atonement 5/day, Corrosive Soul|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D

11th|
+9|
+3|
+3|
+7|Grip of Fear +3|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|2+D

12th|
+9|
+4|
+4|
+8| Atonement At Will, Emperor's Bribe|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D

13th|
+10|
+4|
+4|
+8|Grip of Fear +4|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|2+D

14th|
+11|
+4|
+4|
+9|Temptation +1, Morality|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D

15th|
+12|
+5|
+5|
+9|Grip of Fear +5|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|2+D

16th|
+12|
+5|
+5|
+10|Temptation +2, Emperor's Bribe|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D

17th|
+13|
+5|
+5|
+10|Grip of Fear +6|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|1+D

18th|
+14|
+6|
+6|
+11|Temptation +3|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|2+D

19th|
+15|
+6|
+6|
+11|Fear Me!|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|3+D

20th|
+15|
+6|
+6|
+12|Damn You, Undying|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D [/table]

Class Features: All of the following are class features of the Voidsoul class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Voidsoul are proficient with Light Armor, Light shields, and Simple weapons with a single martial weapon chosen at start.

Domains:
The Voidsoul, unlike the Tendersoul, has access to the following domains:
Darkness, Death, Deathbound, Deathless, Decay, Destruction, Evil, Hatred, Pestilence, Suffering, Undeath, Wrath.
The Voidsoul selects 1 new domain every five levels. 1st,5th,10th,15th, and 20th.

Spells: A Voidsoul casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Voidsoul spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time.

To learn or cast a spell, a Voidsoul must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Voidsoul’s spell is 10 + the spell level + her Cha modifier.

A Voidsoul can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, as seen on the table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see page 8 of the Player’s Handbook).

Spells Known: A Voidsoul begins play knowing any spell in her spell list.

Spell List:

0
Acid Splash
Daze
Flare
Ray of Frost
Touch of Fatigue
Disrupt Undead
Create Water
Inflict Minor Wounds
Blood Drops* (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Sorcerer/Wizard_Spells)

1
Bane
Command
Curse Water
Deathwatch
Doom
Inflict Light Wounds
Magic Weapon
True Strike
Chill Touch
Ray of Enfeeblement
Devil Armor (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Armor_%283.5e_Spell%29)
Devil's Ray of Destruction (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil%27s_Ray_of_Destruction_%283.5e_Spell%29)

2
Align Weapon
Darkness
Death Knell
Desecrate
Enthrall
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Shatter
Sound burst
Spiritual Weapon
Undetectable Alignment.
Immediate Devil Armor (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Immediate_Devil_Armor_%283.5e_Spell%29)
Devil's Prowess (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Prowress_%283.5e_Spell%29)
Acid Arrow
Web
False Life
Ghoul Touch

3
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Contagion
Deeper Darkness
Inflict Serious Wounds
Speak With Dead
Devil's Wings (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Wings_%283.5e_Spell%29)
Phantom Steed
Stinking Cloud
Rage
Ray of Exhaustion
Vampiric Touch
Blink
Slow

4
Discern Lies
Divine Power
Giant Vermin
Inflict Critical Wounds
Magic Weapon, Greater
Black Tentacles
Confusion
Crushing Despair
Shout
Phantasmal Killer
Shadow Conjuration
Enervation
Devil Fire (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Fire_%283.5e_Spell%29)

5th
Command, Greater
Insect Plague
Raise Dead (all sorts of fun torture scenarios)
Righteous Terrible Might
Inflict Light wounds, Mass
Slay Living
Symbol of Pain
Symbol of Sleep
True Seeing
Unhallow
Cloudkill
Dominate Person
Feeblemind
Mind Fog
Cone of Cold
Waves of Fatigue
Baleful Polymorph
Devil Skin (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Skin_%283.5e_Spell%29)

6th
Antilife Shell
Blade Barrier
Create Undead
Quest
Harm
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass
Symbol of Fear
Undeath to Death
Antimagic Field
Acid Fog
Contingency
Circle of Death
Disintegrate
Transformation
Devil Form (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Form_%283.5e_Spell%29)

7th
Blasphemy
Destruction
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass
Repulsion
Symbol of Weakness
Insanity
Power word Blind
Forcecage
Finger of Death
Waves of Exhaustion
Reverse Gravity
Devil Transformation (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Transformation_%283.5e_Spell%29)

8th
Create Greater Undead
Earthquake
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
Symbol of Death
Symbol of Insantiy
Unholy Aura
Incendiary Cloud
Trap the Soul
Antipathy
Polar Ray
Shout, Greater
Shadow Evocation, Greater
Horrid Wilting
Devil Pinnacle (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Pinnacle_%283.5e_Spell%29)

9
Energy Drain
Implosion
Soul Bind
Storm of Vengeance
Imprisonment
Power Word Kill
Meteor Swarm
Shades
Weird
Wail of the Banshee
Devil Apotheosis (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Apotheosis_%283.5e_Spell%29)





Aura of Evil (Ex): The power of a Voidsoul’s aura of evil (see the detect good spell) is equal to her Voidsoul level, just like the aura of a cleric of an evil deity.

Detect Good (Su): A will, a Voidsoul can use detect good, as the spell.

Emperor's Bribe (Ex): The Emperor grants special abilities to help keep you on the path of evil. You add you Charisma modifier as Insight bonus to Attack, as untyped bonus to damage.
4: You gain the Power Attack and Cleave.
8: You gain Deep Impact and You are never surprised.
12: You gain the Mighty Cleave, and again a free Exotic Weapon proficiency
16:You gain half your Charisma modifier again (meaning x1.5 cha) to Attack, damage, and half cha mod rounded down bonus to saves. This changes to no further bonus if you wear armor. You now have a constant Augury like effect that only gives "woe" warnings on particularly bad choices.

Cause Fear (Sp): A Voidsoul can perform Cause Fear at listed times per day, becoming at will at level 9. The DC however is 10+1/2 class levels +cha mod. At different levels, Cause Fear can perform alternate effects.
5th: Scare
9th: Fear
13th: Symbol of Fear
17th: Symbol of Insanity*
20th: Weird*
*- these do not become at will, instead they can be used a number of times per week equal to half you class levels.
The Voidsoul can always choose to use the new version, or an old version of her Cause Fear class ability whenever she uses it.
Grip of Fear: After becoming At Will, Cause Fear becomes more powerful. They add the listed bonus to Caster Level and for the Cause Fear save DC and plus the given number to effected HD.
FEAR ME!: Your Cause Fear does not allow Spell Resistance or any Saves. Those with Immunity to Cause Fear instead have a 50% chance of ignoring it that round. They can effect up x3 they're own character level in HD. Those naturally immune to fear are still immune.

Corruption Hold (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a Voidsoul with a Charisma score of 11 or higher can inflict wounds by touch. Each day she can deal a total number of damage equal to her Voidsoul level + her Charisma bonus x10. At 6th level and higher, whenever a Voidsoul uses her Corruption Hold, it also bestows a disease or poison. The Voidsoul need not spend any of her daily healing in order to bestow a disease on the target but spends 5 to poison, as if she had cast Contagion or Poison as the spells. Using Corruption Hold is a typical attack action using a Touch Attack to deliver effects, which use a fortitude save DC 10+cha mod+1/2 class levels for half damage, and cannot release more then 1/5th the Voidsoul's total reserve in one spending.

Atonement (Ex): A Voidsoul can use Atonement, as the spell, a number of times per day as listed on the table becoming At Will at level 12. They can use it to redeem any being of good or neutral deities back to they're path, or to convert people to the Voidsoul's religion.
Temptation: When ever the Voidsoul converts a good or neutral character to Evil through use of Atonement (Or later Damn You) the Voidsoul can sacrifice the given amount listed on the table as constitution damage to receive a gift given to them by the Emperor in recognition (and further temptation to continue the dark path). at +1, this is a Miracle effect mimicking any spell of level 4 and lower at half the XP cost of a lesser Miracle. at +2 this is a Miracle effect mimicking any spell of level 6 and lower like lesser Miracle. at +3 this is any spell of 8 and lower as Miracle. XP costs for these Miracles are shared between the Voidsoul, the Atoning creature, and The Emperor. effectively dividing the cost by three.
Damn You: Atonement is now usable as a free action, and it now delves deep down into the subconscious so if the target was unwilling, it slowly changes they're mindset, giving them a small voice or conscience that guides them to the path of evil. Will save DC 10+ 1/2Voidsoul level + Cha mod when ever they will do an evil act, or same, but +1/4th Voidsoul level when ever they would do a lawful action. Failure means they give into the dark temptations guiding them towards good and simply do not perform the action. Likewise, they make a save when presented to do evil, failure means they preform the evil action (they can forfeit the save to do it anyway) Lasts until they beat the will save three times. Every two failed will saves adds 1 more to the number needed to be free of the voice. Every Six failed saves, they change alignment to the next closest toward evil. once in evil, these become changes towards the next closest toward chaotic evil.


Unholy Vitality (Ex): At 3rd level, a Voidsoul gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).

Turn Good (Su): At 5th level, a Voidsoul gains the ability to turn [good] creatures as a good cleric turns undead. A Voidsoul may use Turn Good at will, but only once against a creature per day. If a good creature has already been turned that day, or saved against it, they are not subject to it again for 24 hours.
This effects good creatures differently. Neutral Good characters gain a "Turn Resistance" equal to half they're character level. Chaotic Good characters have a chance equal to they're character level to be unaffected by Turn Good as the spell passes them harmlessly. Lawful Good characters can make an opposed roll as if they had "Rebuke Good" and attempted to dispel, but at a -5 penalty and it only negates the turning against herself.

Word of Darkness (Su): Your words of fear, death, and inevitability effects up to Class levels x2 HD of creatures starting with the lowest. If all are same, start with the closest. Usable Charisma modifier times per day at a will save DC = 10+cha mod+1/2 class levels.
The Word of Darkness has the following effects based on Alignment.
Lawful Good: Petrified 1d10 rounds
Neutral Good: Stunned, deafened 1d8 rounds
Chaotic Good: Stunned, 1d6 rounds
Lawful Neutral: Dazed, 1d4 rounds
True Neutral: Dazzled, 1d4 rounds
Neutral Evil: No effect
Chaotic Evil: +1 moral bonus on Attack rolls. 1D6 rounds
Lawful Evil: +2 moral bonus on Attack rolls. 1D8 rounds.

Corrosive Soul (Ex): Your damaging abilities deal twice as much damage on Lawful Good creatures, x1.5 on neutral creatures.

Undying (Su): At 20th level a Voidsoul transcends the mortal coil and becomes something Dark, and a thing of nightmares. They gain the Undead template, However, she is not affected by spells that specifically target or have additional benefits or penalties against Undead short of Turning/Rebuking. such as Searing Light. Additionally, the Voidsoul gains fast healing 10 and her damage reduction changes to DR 10/-. Due to the Fast Healing and the nature of they're more unique case of Undead-ism, they do not rot or share the stereotypical distasteful appearance of other undead.
In addition, the Voidsoul cannot be destroyed if she does not choose to. She still feels pain normally, and can be knocked unconscious. If put below -0 hp, she remains unconscious until a 5 rounds per point of damage over -0. Once that time passes, she starts Fast Healing as normal, and wakes up once back to 1+ hp. If put below -9 hp, they are unconsious fot a number of days equal to each point of damage below -9. This is always functional unless they wish otherwise, Or have not killed an innocent for more then 24 hours, or if killed in a Hallowed area, then buried in Consecrated ground (Can be recovered, but permanently dead if a month has passed while buried)

Morality: A Voidsoul must be of lawful evil alignment and looses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act of goodness. Additionally, each Voidsoul must follow the Voidsoul's morals.

A Voidsoul must:


Never show compassion, it leads to weakness.
Never give charity without expecting something in return.
Never allow a slight to go unpunished.
Never let your enemy walk away alive.


If a Voidsoul breaks one of these codes, she loses her ability to cast spells and access to all of her supernatural, spell-like, and extraordinary class abilities for the remainder of the day, unless she atones (see the atonement spell description, page 201 of the Player’s Handbook). If a Voidsoul continues to break the code, she risks permanently losing access to her Voidsoul abilities.



Ex-Voidsoul: A Voidsoul who ceases to be lawful evil, who willfully commits an charitable act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all Voidsoul spells and abilities. She may not progress any farther in levels as a Voidsoul. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description, page 201 of the Player’s Handbook), as appropriate.

A Voidsoul can never do good, or charity. Even under the name of another class, Otherwise they can multiclass just fine.

NeoSeraphi
2011-06-29, 02:17 PM
I don't understand why you keep making this complicated "select spells to cast spontaneously" system. There's really no need. The spell list is concise, knowing the entire list and being able to cast from it spontaneously isn't overpowered if the list is so small. The dread necromancer, beguiler, and warmage can all do it.

I really think those first two alignment based abilities should be switched (I think she should have an aura of evil and be able to detect good at will, rather than the other way around)

Giving her bonuses to her attacks, as well as Power Attack and Cleave, makes me think she should have some kind of weapon proficiency. And an armor proficiency, I mean, divine spells don't have somatic spell failure chance, so there's no reason for her to not be able to wear armor, especially if she's going to be in melee and Power Attacking (with d4 hit dice)

The poison spell is a bit of a strange spell, in that it has its own personal DC of 10+1/2 caster level+Wisdom modifier (even if a wizard or sorcerer casts it). I think you want it to be based off Charisma so I was just telling you, for your Corruption Hold ability. Otherwise, I like it.

Does Word of Evil allow a saving throw? Anyway, I just wanted to point out that a Neutral Evil creature is closer to the Voidsoul's alignment than a Chaotic Evil creature, so I don't see why you aren't giving it some benefit from Word of Evil when Chaotic Evil creatures get it.

Cause Fear has an HD cap of 5, by the way. Perhaps you should have it grow over the course of her levels? Start with cause fear, then scare, and then fear?

Additionally, divine casters cannot cast spells with alignment descriptors that oppose their own alignment. If the Voidsoul is Lawful Evil, she can't cast the following spells you have listed on her spell list: detect evil, protection from evil, magic circle against evil, dispel evil, and holy aura.

The Deathless subtype are positive energy channeled undead. They are rebuked by good clerics and turned by evil ones. Again, this is a type that would be applied to a good-aligned creature. Perhaps you should turn the creature into a lich or a mummy instead?

I know that you aren't done with the class yet, but I figured that you posted it here just so you'd get some primary feedback. So I've given you every suggestion I can think of to help you fix your class when you get back.

Veklim
2011-06-29, 02:25 PM
wow, I said PrC, not entire antithesis base class! Still, nice... can't wait until it's tidied up and finished off, shall refrain from picking until then (and NeoSeraphi seems to have covered everything I would have brought up after a cursory glance anyhow!)

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-29, 09:04 PM
Back. I see everything that was obviously not yet converted to Voidsoul has been pointed out in my absence. How... quaint?


There. Now I finished as intended before I left, I think. :/

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-30, 05:22 AM
Added spell list. fixed a few things here and there.

Veklim
2011-06-30, 07:01 AM
Wrong class name and a superfluous quote ender here dude...

A Tender Soul can never do good, or charity. Even under the name of another class, Otherwise they can multiclass just fine.
[/SPOILER]No mention of domains on the table, BAB progression is properly messed up.


FEAR ME!: Your Cause Fear does not allow Spell Resistance or any Saves. Those with Immunity to Cause Fear instead have a 50% chance of ignoring it that round. They can effect up two x1.5 they're own character level in HD. Those naturally immune to fear are still immune.Why not just say 3HD/level instead? Or have I misunderstood...?

Undying may want another look. I'm not entirely sure if 'Deathless' and the undead template are the same, but the ability refers to both as if they're the same. It also bears thinking about the HP situation, the HD will become D12 but you'll still be adding 1.5X Cha mod to each level, that plus the fast healing 10 AND DR 10/- makes them arguably even tougher to drop than a Tendersoul, I fear these guys might need cutting back a little on that front, it's not as if they're gonna die or something is it? :smallwink:

EDIT: Ahhhh, I think you only half changed Emperor's Bribe, it reads +cha to attack & damage at the top, but +1.5 cha to AC, HP & saves at the bottom. My above arguement still stands, but perhaps it's not as bad as I initially feared!

You'll probably want to link this to Tendersoul and vice-versa btw, if not for your benefit then for mine :smalltongue:

All told though, it's the absolute antithesis of Tendersoul, and I like it. These guys can easily replace both the cleric/necromancer build AND the blackguard approach to NPC bad guys, and I intend to use this class to create my next recurring villain. It's so much easier to make them when they can't actually die!

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-30, 07:45 AM
Wrong class name and a superfluous quote ender here dude...
No mention of domains on the table, BAB progression is properly messed up.
Why not just say 3HD/level instead? Or have I misunderstood...?

BAB starts higher, but they don't gain multi attacks like others, they gain them every eleven, rather then six. (Actually I only just added that now...)


Undying may want another look. I'm not entirely sure if 'Deathless' and the undead template are the same, but the ability refers to both as if they're the same. It also bears thinking about the HP situation, the HD will become D12 but you'll still be adding 1.5X Cha mod to each level, that plus the fast healing 10 AND DR 10/- makes them arguably even tougher to drop than a Tendersoul, I fear these guys might need cutting back a little on that front, it's not as if they're gonna die or something is it? :smallwink:

EDIT: Ahhhh, I think you only half changed Emperor's Bribe, it reads +cha to attack & damage at the top, but +1.5 cha to AC, HP & saves at the bottom. My above arguement still stands, but perhaps it's not as bad as I initially feared!

Yea ^^' Reading your message I only just remembered that that was where I left off before heading to the party yesterday.


You'll probably want to link this to Tendersoul and vice-versa btw, if not for your benefit then for mine :smalltongue:

It is done.


All told though, it's the absolute antithesis of Tendersoul, and I like it. These guys can easily replace both the cleric/necromancer build AND the blackguard approach to NPC bad guys, and I intend to use this class to create my next recurring villain. It's so much easier to make them when they can't actually die!
Um... oh I see. forgot to change that ~ Fix'd. just a small edit... (to the Tendersoul's as well)

Veklim
2011-06-30, 08:02 AM
BAB starts higher, but they don't gain multi attacks like others, they gain them every eleven, rather then six. (Actually I only just added that now...)


Honestly, they already get their Cha to hit and damage, they don't need an accelerated BAB, just average should suffice, although I like the idea of 1st iterative @ 11th instead of 6th. The issue with that idea is multi-classing, and where iterative attacks would be placed depending...tricky.

EDIT: Regardless, level 7 is wrong, whichever way you go...

These guys would make truly horrifying and effective vampires btw, just thought I should point that out!

With this and Tendersoul both just about ready for playtesting, I'm sorely tempted to make them the basis of a new class-set. Working along the same lines as this, a chaotic/lawful skill bunny pair and a good/evil combat pair would round off a system beautifully with very few base classes and plenty of interesting RP potential... Once again Cipher, I tip my hat to you sir. :smallbiggrin:

Cipherthe3vil
2011-06-30, 08:08 AM
Honestly, they already get their Cha to hit and damage, they don't need an accelerated BAB, just average should suffice, although I like the idea of 1st iterative @ 11th instead of 6th. The issue with that idea is multi-classing, and where iterative attacks would be placed depending...tricky.

EDIT: Regardless, level 7 is wrong, whichever way you go...

These guys would make truly horrifying and effective vampires btw, just thought I should point that out!

With this and Tendersoul both just about ready for playtesting, I'm sorely tempted to make them the basis of a new class-set. Working along the same lines as this, a chaotic/lawful skill bunny pair and a good/evil combat pair would round off a system beautifully with very few base classes and plenty of interesting RP potential... Once again Cipher, I tip my hat to you sir. :smallbiggrin:

Hm.. What if I give them Full bab, with the weird 11 > 6 secondary attacks? *Thinks aloud*

editz.
naw. They ARE casters after all. They should feel lucky to get average with the slower bonus attacks.

Veklim
2011-06-30, 08:59 AM
They should feel lucky to get average with the slower bonus attacks.
Yes indeed, especially with the +Casting stat to hit and damage, and access to magic/align/spiritual weapon spells. They actually rival a full BAB character, but they can do it more reliably, in a wider array of situations...odd thing is, it still kinda works!


They ARE casters after all.

NeoSeraphi
2011-06-30, 10:34 AM
Creatures with the Undead template are destroyed when they reach 0 hit points. They do not "die", as they are not "alive". Their bodies simply turn to dust. Just thought I'd point that out, since you're so determined to make aesthetically pleasing undead.

Shadow Lord
2011-07-11, 10:35 PM
Now you have to make a PrC that is a mix between this and Tendersoul. It would be awesome. :smallcool:

Cipherthe3vil
2011-07-11, 10:37 PM
Now you have to make a PrC that is a mix between this and Tendersoul. It would be awesome. :smallcool:

I... I have to try that... like... now.

Shadow Lord
2011-07-11, 10:39 PM
I... I have to try that... like... now.

I have good ideas, occasionally.Like, for example, you could make a class that doesn't believe in the world. So s/he can make parts of the world go away. But that idea still needs more fleshing until I really know how to describe it.

Hazzardevil
2011-08-13, 04:11 AM
I like the idea of the class, but I have a question.
Who is the Emperor the class mentions a bit?

Cipherthe3vil
2011-08-13, 04:28 AM
I like the idea of the class, but I have a question.
Who is the Emperor the class mentions a bit?

The Emperor is an Overdeity, his hand can be found as the origin behind any act of evil or dark thought.
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/Hannibal09/EvilGod.jpg

Havvy
2011-08-13, 08:56 AM
Please oh please learn English.

'They're' means 'They are', not the third person plural possessive pronoun. For that, you want 'their'.

In general DnD convention, you use either masculine or feminine pronouns, and not plural third person pronouns.

'Your' is possessive. "You're" is 'You are'.

"Your considered to have the Power Attack and Cleave." "You gain Cleave and Power Attack as bonus feats."

For the World of Darkness ability, you have an area of effect save or suck that lasts long enough to be a save or die. Also, this is especially horrible: "Usable Charisma modifier times per day at a will save DC = 10+cha mod+1/2 class levels." Word is sanely, like "World of Darkness can be used a number of times per day equal to the Voidsoul's Charisma modifier (minimum 1). It's effects may be negated with a will save (DC 10+1/2 class level+Charisma modifier)."

Maraxus1
2011-08-13, 10:53 AM
It is common form to write class descriptions in 3rd person singular. You randomly switch between that, the also used 2nd person singular and the 3rd person plural (which I can't remember to have seen in anyone's class description before).




(...)

Game Rule Information

Abilities: Charisma is most important to the Voidsoul. They're abilities stem from having a high presence to the point they absolutely radiate fear, despair, and darkness to those around them.

Alignment: Lawful Evil

Hit Die: d6

Class Skills: The Voidsoul’s class skills are... Survival (Wis), Knowledge: Religion (Int), Knowledge: The Planes, Nobility & Royalty, Arcana, History (Int), Intimidate (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Concentration (Con).
Please order alphabetically, the class does not really need Use Magic Device, the correct way to write it would be:
Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility & royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes).
Alternatively, I'd use:
Knowledge (arcana, history, nobility & royalty, religion, the planes) (Int).
But I'm not exactly sure, why this class would need all those knowledges either.


Skill Points at 1st Level: ( 4+ Int Modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+ Int Modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+2|Cause Fear 3/day, Emperor's Bribe, Aura of Evil, Morality|6|3+D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+0|
+3|Atonement 1/day, Corruption Hold|6|5+D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

3rd|
+3|
+2|
+1|
+3|Cause Fear 4/day, Unholy Vitality|6|5+D|2+D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

4th|
+3|
+2|
+1|
+4|Atonement 2/day, Emperor's Bribe|6|5+D|4+D|-|-|-

5th|
+4|
+2|
+1|
+4|Cause Fear 5/day, Turn Good|6|5+D|4+D|2+D|-|-

6th|
+5|
+2|
+2|
+5|Atonement 3/day, Corruption Hold|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|-|-

7th|
+6|
+2|
+2|
+5|Cause Fear 6/day, Morality |6|5+D|4+D|4+D|2+D|-

8th|
+6|
+2|
+2|
+6|Atonement 4/day, Word of Darkness, Emperor's Bribe|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|-

9th|
+7|
+3|
+3|
+6|Cause Fear At will|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|2+D

10th|
+8|
+3|
+3|
+7|Atonement 5/day, Corrosive Soul|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D

11th|
+9|
+3|
+3|
+7|Grip of Fear +3|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|2+D

12th|
+9|
+4|
+4|
+8| Atonement At Will, Emperor's Bribe|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D

13th|
+10|
+4|
+4|
+8|Grip of Fear +4|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|2+D

14th|
+11/1|
+4|
+4|
+9|Temptation +1, Morality|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D

15th|
+12/2|
+5|
+5|
+9|Grip of Fear +5|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|2+D

16th|
+12/2|
+5|
+5|
+10|Temptation +2, Emperor's Bribe|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D

17th|
+13/3|
+5|
+5|
+10|Grip of Fear +6|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|1+D

18th|
+14/4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Temptation +3|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|2+D

19th|
+15/5|
+6|
+6|
+11|Cause Fear!|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|3+D

20th|
+15/5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Damn You, Eternal Peace|6|5+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D|4+D [/table]
"Cause Fear!" on 19 should be "Fear me!", I guess.
"Eternal Peace" should be "Undying".


Class Features: All of the following are class features of the Voidsoul class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Voidsoul are proficient with Light Armor, Light shields, and Simple weapons with a single martial weapon chosen at start.

Domains:
The Voidsoul, unlike the Tendersoul, has access to the following domains:
Darkness, Death, Deathbound, Deathless, Decay, Destruction, Evil, Hatred, Pestilence, Suffering, Undeath, Wrath.
The Voidsoul selects 1 new domain every five levels. 1st,5th,10th,15th, and 20th.

Spells: A Voidsoul casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Voidsoul spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time so long as she's happy with her current load out. If she wishes to change her spell selection, she can spend an hour of prayer at Midday under the sun, or at least not in a man-made building thats not dedicated to the worship of the Goddess.

To learn or cast a spell, a Voidsoul must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Voidsoul’s spell is 10 + the spell level + her Cha modifier.

A Voidsoul can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, as seen on the table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see page 8 of the Player’s Handbook).

Spells Known: A Voidsoul begins play knowing any spell in her spell list, and simply chooses her spell slots which remain as Spontaneous casting. As mentioned above, a midday ritual for an hour can be used to reset her spell selections.
The Spells listing in the above table are your effective spell slots. You can cast a number of spells per day from that spell level a number of times per day equal to x3 your Charisma modifier, Every five levels, the lowest non-At Will spell level becomes at will. At fifth level, they get they're 0 level Voidsoul spells at will. At ten, 1st level. At fifteenth, 2nd level. At twentieth, 3rd.
Now this is messed up HUGE.
"She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time so long as she's happy with her current load out."
What is this "load out" you are speaking of for a spontaneous caster?
*check* Ah, I think I get it:
1. There are a number of spells, the character generally knows,
2. those that he knows simultaneously at a given time (a subset of 1. obviously)
3. and a number of spells, he can cast per day...

Now, you could think, the 1. is obvious at least but let me clarify this:
Generally he knows all spells on his spell list and all spells from any domain he has chosen.

The other two are more difficult.
You write: "The Spells listing in the above table are your effective spell slots." Spell slots is a common D&D term and I think you mean something differently. I think you mean the number of spells, he knows simultaneously. Or in other words: The size of the list he picks, which he can then spontaneously cast from. Where "5+D" means: "He can have 5 spells from his spell-list and one spell from his domains 'currently known'."

How many can he cast per day, however?
This is in the next sentence: "You can cast a number of spells per day from that spell level a number of times per day equal to x3 your Charisma modifier, Every five levels"
and it's highly irregular, let me phrase it as a table:

{table=head]Level|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-
8th|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-
9th|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-
10th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-
11th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-
12th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-
13th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-
14th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-
15th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-
16th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-
17th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3
18th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3
19th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3
20th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3[/table]
I'm intentionally writing it that way. On levels where you can not yet cast spells you should have "-" spells per day, just to mention that you can't use them to cast spells from lower levels or meta-magically enhances spells in there either. Likewise, I wrote at will/Cha*3 for the low-level spells at high class levels to point out, that on the one hand you can use every spell there as an at-will ability but you also have Cha*3 "spells" if you want them as such (likely to use them with meta-magic feats)


Plus, you also have this sentence in there:
"A Voidsoul can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, as seen on the table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score"
This is written in relation to Nr.2, the "currently known" as I call them. And in the context above, it makes me seriously wonder, if you have understood how spellcasting works in D&D.
To the point, "only a certain number of spells per day" really means this not "only a certain number of different spells per day. If a sorcerer wants two cast two magic missiles on the same day, this is two "spells per day", one for each casting, not one, because it's the same spell.
This is what bonus spells for high ability scores are applied too, usually.

So, what are my problems with this? I can live with the system of
X spells on the list total
Y different spells available each day (Y<X)
Z castings per day.

What I do not like is, that: Y gets bonus spells for high Charisma. Z should get Bonus spells for high Charisma, however, and more importantly, Z should not be a multiple of the charisma bonus! This is just too much attribute dependency and screams for balancing issues depending on the availability of +Charisma items, unusual races etc.





Okay, let's go on to the next point:


Spell List:

0
Acid Splash
Daze
Flare
Ray of Frost
Touch of Fatigue
Disrupt Undead
Create Water
Inflict Minor Wounds
Blood Drops* (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Sorcerer/Wizard_Spells)

1
Bane
Command
Curse Water
Deathwatch
Doom
Inflict Light Wounds
Magic Weapon
True Strike
Chill Touch
Ray of Enfeeblement
Devil Armor (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Armor_%283.5e_Spell%29)
Devil's Ray of Destruction (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil%27s_Ray_of_Destruction_%283.5e_Spell%29)

2
Align Weapon
Darkness
Death Knell
Desecrate
Enthrall
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Shatter
Sound burst
Spiritual Weapon
Undetectable Alignment.
Immediate Devil Armor (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Immediate_Devil_Armor_%283.5e_Spell%29)
Devil's Prowess (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Prowress_%283.5e_Spell%29)
Acid Arrow
Web
False Life
Ghoul Touch

3
Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Contagion
Deeper Darkness
Inflict Serious Wounds
Speak With Dead
Devil's Wings (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Wings_%283.5e_Spell%29)
Phantom Steed
Stinking Cloud
Rage
Ray of Exhaustion
Vampiric Touch
Blink
Slow

4
Discern Lies
Divine Power
Giant Vermin
Inflict Critical Wounds
Magic Weapon, Greater
Black Tentacles
Confusion
Crushing Despair
Shout
Phantasmal Killer
Shadow Conjuration
Enervation
Devil Fire (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Fire_%283.5e_Spell%29)

5th
Command, Greater
Insect Plague
Raise Dead (all sorts of fun torture scenarios)
Righteous Terrible Might
Inflict Light wounds, Mass
Slay Living
Symbol of Pain
Symbol of Sleep
True Seeing
Unhallow
Cloudkill
Dominate Person
Feeblemind
Mind Fog
Cone of Cold
Waves of Fatigue
Baleful Polymorph
Devil Skin (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Skin_%283.5e_Spell%29)

6th
Antilife Shell
Blade Barrier
Create Undead
Quest
Harm
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass
Symbol of Fear
Undeath to Death
Antimagic Field
Acid Fog
Contingency
Circle of Death
Disintegrate
Transformation
Devil Form (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Form_%283.5e_Spell%29)

7th
Blasphemy
Destruction
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass
Repulsion
Symbol of Weakness
Insanity
Power word Blind
Forcecage
Finger of Death
Waves of Exhaustion
Reverse Gravity
Devil Transformation (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Transformation_%283.5e_Spell%29)

8th
Create Greater Undead
Earthquake
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
Symbol of Death
Symbol of Insantiy
Unholy Aura
Incendiary Cloud
Trap the Soul
Antipathy
Polar Ray
Shout, Greater
Shadow Evocation, Greater
Horrid Wilting
Devil Pinnacle (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Pinnacle_%283.5e_Spell%29)

9
Energy Drain
Implosion
Soul Bind
Storm of Vengeance
Imprisonment
Power Word Kill
Meteor Swarm
Shades
Weird
Wail of the Banshee
Devil Apotheosis (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Apotheosis_%283.5e_Spell%29)


I did not look at the linked spells but from the player handbook skills I can say: No way!! already. Those are some wizard powerhouse spells on there, the very reasons, why the wizard has puny BAB, HD and almost no class features besides his spells.
Oh and other spells from the cleric list. And while the cleric has better BAB and HD, he has minimal class features (turn undead) compared what you want to have, too. You shouldn't get his best spells on the same level.

Given the whole lot of overpowering class features, I'd rather recommend to drop from 9 spell-levels to a bard-like spell progression anyway but let's try to fix that within the 9. I just warn you (or your DM, if you want to play that in some campaign) that afterwards it might still be overpowered.)

Move up Ray of Enfeeblement from level 1 to 3.
Move up Acid Arrow from level 2 to 3 or more
Totally remove Web without replacement.
Not sure about Bestow Curse and Contagion. Better move them from 3 to 4.
Move up Ray of Exhaustion from 3 to 5.
Remove Divine Power, you have Transformation for this.
Definitely, without doubt remove Black Tentacles
Move up Enervation from 4 to 5 or 6
Move up Righteous/Terrible Might from 4 to 5
Remove Dominate Person
Move Antimagic Field from 6 to 8
Definitly remove Forcecage
Move Reverse Gravity from 7 to 8
Remove Horrid Wilting
Remove Imprisonment
Remove Meteor Swarm
Remove Wail of the Banshee



Aura of Evil (Ex): The power of a Voidsoul’s aura of evil (see the detect good spell) is equal to her Voidsoul level, just like the aura of a cleric of an evil deity.

Detect Good (Su): A will, a Voidsoul can use detect good, as the spell.

Emperor's Bribe (Ex): The Emperor grants special abilities to help keep you on the path of evil. You add you Charisma modifier as Insight bonus to Attack, as untyped bonus to damage.
4: Your considered to have the Power Attack and Cleave.
8: Your considered to have the equivalent of Deep Impact ability as the psionic feat and You are never surprised.
12: Your considered to have the Mighty Cleave, and again a free Exotic Weapon proficiency
16:You gain half your Charisma modifier again (meaning x1.5 cha) to Attack, damage, and half cha mod bonus to saves. This changes to no further bonus if you wear armor. You now have a constant Augury like effect that only gives "woe" warnings on particularly bad choices.

1. It's "you are" not "your" in this case.

2. All that? Why does he need all that? I'm sure, the Good gods like their paladin's too, and they don't grand them soooooo much stuff. Charisma to attack and damage - okay but not all at level 1 that's way to frontloaded. I think "+1 insight to attack / unnamed to damage up to a maximum of Charisma or Class Level / 2 (rounded up) sounds good.

5 feats and uncanny dodge: Uncanny dodge neither fits the caster nor the warrior aspect, skip it. Cleave: Works fine, maybe give a magic equivalents like: Magic cleave: When a spell cast by the Voidsoul deals enough damage to a creature to make it drop, or kills it through a death effect, the Voidsoul regains the spell-per-day used to cast this spell.
Of cause make it an either-or decision. Not every two Voidsouls need to be the same. Also, Power attack and exotic weapon proficiency are not really what you'd expect to be on the training schedule for such a class. Sure, many Voidsould might find that fitting and take is as their character-level dependent feats but they should not get it for free. Likewise I'd say for mighty cleave but that does not really matter.

Word the level 16 ability like that:
16:At level 16, if you are unarmored the insight bonus to attack and the damage bonus increase to 1.5 times the charisma bonus and you get a bonus of 0.5 the Charisma bonus to all saves (rounded down).
Instead of just limiting it to unarmored, you might want to add unencumbered.
The Augury like effect: No. If you mess up as a player and everybody laughs at you, it's your fault, no abilities against stupid decisions.



Cause Fear (Sp): A Voidsoul can perform Cause Fear at listed times per day, becoming at will at level 9. The DC however is 10+1/2 class levels +cha mod. Every Cause Fear level, They Voidsoul can effect +1 HD of creatures.
Grip of Fear: After becoming At Will, Cause Fear becomes more powerful. They add the listed bonus to Caster Level and for the Cause Fear save DC and plus the given number to effected HD.
FEAR ME!: Your Cause Fear does not allow Spell Resistance or any Saves. Those with Immunity to Cause Fear instead have a 50% chance of ignoring it that round. They can effect up x3 they're own character level in HD. Those naturally immune to fear are still immune.

"Every Cause Fear level, They Voidsoul can effect +1 HD of creatures."
What is a cause fear level? I assume 1;3;5;7 and 9?
So this makes the max HD effected at level say 17:
5 (spell) +5 ("cause fear levels") +6 (grip of fear bonus) = 16

Sounds complicated and unintuitive
{table]Char level|1|3|5|7|9|11|13|15|17|19|20
Max HD effected|6|7|8|9|10|13|14|15|16|57|60[/table]
Let's see, by spell description, it's 5. If you made Class level +2 from level 3 on, you'd have a bit less at levels 1-5 and a little more at 8-10 and 12-18 and at all times you'd have something equally reliable.

Granting caster level and save DC bonuses up to +6 sounds overpowered. Add ability focus and a good Charisma (16+4levelup+6enh+2inh=28 is absolutely reasonable at Level 17) and the save DC is 29.
*check monsters* Marilith, CR 17 demon Will save +14, Aboleth Mage +15, DMG lvl17 NPC fighter: Puny +6!!!!!

I'd say half this Caster Level / Save DC bonus and then we can get to: FEAR ME!
This is just wrong. Sure, it's evil to play intentionally overpowered classes but this does not mean that evil abilities should be overpowered.
No save or Spell resistance???? No way. Skip without replacement. And this HD effected = Character HD*3 adds insult to insanity. Do you really want to provoke the DM into saying: hey, your ability specifically states, that it can't effect 58 HD monsters. So I NEED to include one or two of them, or this would be no limitation. You forced me to do this!
No, you don't want this. Simply writing "can effect creatures regardless of HDs" is basically the same but more honest. And with save and Spell-resistance still in place, that's even fair.
Likewise "a 50% chance to ignore spells or abilities (but not inherent creature qualities) that grand immunity to fear" sounds fair, too.



Corruption Hold (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a Voidsoul with a Charisma score of 11 or higher can inflict wounds by touch. Each day she can deal a total number of damage equal to her Voidsoul level + her Charisma bonus x10. A Voidsoul may choose to divide her infliction among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. At 6th level and higher, whenever a Voidsoul uses her Corruption Hold, it also bestows a disease or poison. The Voidsoul need not spend any of her daily healing in order to bestow a disease the target but spends 5 to poison, as if she had cast Contagion or Poison as the spells. Using Corruption Hold is a typical attack action using a Touch Attack to deliver effects, which use a fortitude save DC 10+cha mod+1/2 class levels for half damage.
Is that
Level + (Cha * 10)
or
(Level + Cha) * 10
? I don't see anything wrong with a "lay on hands"-like Level * Cha.
Also the sentence "The Voidsoul need not spend any of her daily healing in order to bestow a disease the target but spends 5 to poison, as if she had cast Contagion or Poison as the spells." somehow went wrong, not only because it says "healing" in there. I guess you mean:
"Bestowing a poison works like the poison spell and requires the Voidsoul to spend at least 5 points of Corruption Hold-damage. Bestowing a disease works like the Contagion-spell and has no limit on the number of Corruption Hold-damage spend.
I would change that btw, making both require 5 points.



Atonement (Ex): A Voidsoul can use Atonement, as the spell, a number of times per day as listed on the table becoming At Will at level 12. They can use it to redeem any being of good or neutral deities back to they're path, or to convert people to the Voidsoul's religion.
Temptation: The Voidsoul can sacrifice the given amount listed on the table as constitution damage to perform a gift for the Atoning creature. at +1, this is a Miracle effect mimicking any spell of level 4 and lower at half the XP cost of a lesser Miracle. at +2 this is a Miracle effect mimicking any spell of level 6 and lower like lesser Miracle. at +3 this is any spell of 8 and lower as Miracle. XP costs for these Miracles are shared between the Voidsoul, the Atoning creature, and The Emperor. effectively dividing the cost by three.
Damn You: Atonement is now usable as a free action, and it now delves deep down into the subconscious so if the target was unwilling, it slowly changes they're mindset, giving them a small voice or conscience that guides them to the path of Lawful good. Will save DC 10+ 1/2Voidsoul level + Cha mod when ever they will do an evil act, or same, but +1/4th Voidsoul level when ever they would do a chaotic action. Failure means they give into the sweet, loving voice guiding them towards good and simply do not perform the action. Likewise, they make a save when presented to do good, failure means they preform the good action (they can forfeit the save to do it anyway) Lasts until they beat the will save three times. Every two failed will saves adds 1 more to the number needed to be free of the voice. Every Six failed saves, they change alignment to the next closest toward good. once in good, these become changes towards the next closest toward Lawful good.
Work that over!


Unholy Vitality (Ex): At 3rd level, a Voidsoul gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).

Turn Good (Su): At 5th level, a Voidsoul gains the ability to turn [good] creatures as a good cleric turns undead. A Voidsoul may use Turn Good at will, but only once against a creature per day. If a good creature has already been turned that day, or saved against it, they are not subject to it again for 24 hours.

Word of Darkness (Su): Your words of fear, death, and inevitability effects up to Class levels x2 HD of creatures starting with the lowest. If all are same, start with the closest. Usable Charisma modifier times per day at a will save DC = 10+cha mod+1/2 class levels.
The Word of Darkness has the following effects based on Alignment.
Lawful Good: Petrified 1d10 rounds
Neutral Good: Stunned, deafened 1d8 rounds
Chaotic Good: Stunned, 1d6 rounds
Lawful Neutral: Dazed, 1d4 rounds
True Neutral: Dazzled, 1d4 rounds
Neutral Evil: No effect
Chaotic Evil: +1 moral bonus on Attack rolls. 1D6 rounds
Lawful Evil: +2 moral bonus on Attack rolls. 1D8 rounds.
Okay, okay and ... What?
Word of Darkness is poorly worded and unnecessarily complicated. (which even resulted in the fact, that you forgot chaotic neutral)

1. It's really irregular to use "Charisma modifier times per day". Why are you breaking the conventions?
2. Petrification is (so far) always instantaneous (and you should have a reason to break this tradition), you probably want paralyzed instead?
3. These effects are so random. Why does a word dazzle someone? Why do chaotic evil and lawful evil characters get moral bonuses but the neutral evils right in between nothing???
Might I suggest instead:
Good creatures are stunned, neutral (on the good/evil axis) dazed and evil creatures are granted a +2 moral bonus on attack rolls. The duration of this is 1d3 rounds for chaotic creatures, 1d6 for neutral creatures and 1d10 for lawful creatures.



Corrosive Soul (Ex): Your damaging abilities deal twice as much damage on Lawful Good creatures, x1.5 on neutral creatures.
Clarify "damaging abilities". With the corruption hold alone, this is probably overpowered already, with spell-damage on top, this is just way off. Give a +X bonus instead of a factor (+4/+2 sounds okay).


Undying (Su): At 20th level a Voidsoul transcends the mortal coil and becomes something Dark, and a thing of nightmares. They gain the Undead template, However, she is not affected by spells that specifically target or have additional benefits or penalties against Undead short of Turning/Rebuking. such as Searing Light. Additionally, the Voidsoul gains fast healing 10 and her damage reduction changes to DR 10/-. Due to the Fast Healing and the nature of they're more unique case of Undead-ism, they do not rot or share the stereotypical distasteful appearance of other undead.
In addition, the Voidsoul cannot be destroyed if she does not choose to. She still feels pain normally, and can be knocked unconscious. If put below -0 hp, she remains unconscious until a 5 rounds per point of damage over -0. Once that time passes, she starts Fast Healing as normal, and wakes up once back to 1+ hp. This is always functional unless they wish otherwise, Or have not killed an innocent for more then 24 hours, or if killed in a Hallowed area, then buried in Consecrated ground (Can be recovered, but permanently dead if a month has passed while buried)Hahahaha. No!


Morality: A Voidsoul must be of lawful evil alignment and looses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act of goodness. Additionally, each Voidsoul must follow the Voidsoul's morals.

A Voidsoul must:


Never show compassion, it leads to weakness.
Never give charity without expecting something in return.
Never allow a slight to go unpunished.
Never let your enemy walk away alive.


If a Voidsoul breaks one of these codes, she loses her ability to cast spells and access to all of her supernatural, spell-like, and extraordinary class abilities for the remainder of the day, unless she atones (see the atonement spell description, page 201 of the Player’s Handbook). If a Voidsoul continues to break the code, she risks permanently losing access to her Voidsoul abilities.



Ex-Voidsoul: A Voidsoul who ceases to be lawful evil, who willfully commits an charitable act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all Voidsoul spells and abilities. She may not progress any farther in levels as a Voidsoul. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description, page 201 of the Player’s Handbook), as appropriate.

A Voidsoul can never do good, or charity. Even under the name of another class, otherwise they can multiclass just fine.I feel that this code leads easily to a complete sociopath and "stupidly evil caricature". At the same time, most reasonable DMs will agree with their players, that some bits of finesse, cold revenge and subtlety are okay for the sake of the greater evil. Which then on the other hand can turn this mostly irrelevant, as any evil-doer who does something "good" is "only faking it" and if he is letting an enemy/insulter leave, he is just "plotting a much more evil revenge".

Instead of pointing out, that he must be really, really mean (bleh, how stereotype), it would be more useful to know, how far he has to openly pronounce is philosophy and how far he is allowed to withhold it. Much like with a paladin, who is allowed to associate with evil doers only to redeem them, not work together with them for a common goal, even if it's an paladin-okay goal.

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-13, 12:12 PM
2. Petrification is (so far) always instantaneous (and you should have a reason to break this tradition), you probably want paralyzed instead?


This statement is incorrect. The totemist totem chakra ability from the Basilisk Mask soulmeld works like the spell flesh to stone, but it changes the duration to 1 round. She's not breaking tradition.

Hazzardevil
2011-08-13, 12:23 PM
Your post makes it obvious you dislike this class and I'll reply to your opinions, I'll bold all my posts.


It is common form to write class descriptions in 3rd person singular. You randomly switch between that, the also used 2nd person singular and the 3rd person plural (which I can't remember to have seen in anyone's class description before).
Your write here, but it is a simple problem that is easy to fix.

Please order alphabetically, the class does not really need Use Magic Device, the correct way to write it would be:
Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility & royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes).
Alternatively, I'd use:
Knowledge (arcana, history, nobility & royalty, religion, the planes) (Int).
But I'm not exactly sure, why this class would need all those knowledges either.
Your right again, although I feel that the only knowledges it needs are arcane, religion and planes.

"Cause Fear!" on 19 should be "Fear me!", I guess.
"Eternal Peace" should be "Undying".
True

Now this is messed up HUGE.
"She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time so long as she's happy with her current load out."
What is this "load out" you are speaking of for a spontaneous caster?
*check* Ah, I think I get it:
1. There are a number of spells, the character generally knows,
2. those that he knows simultaneously at a given time (a subset of 1. obviously)
3. and a number of spells, he can cast per day...
This is dodgy wording, I think this needs to be fixed.
Now, you could think, the 1. is obvious at least but let me clarify this:
Generally he knows all spells on his spell list and all spells from any domain he has chosen.
I'm just reading this as cast spontaneously off the list.
The other two are more difficult.
You write: "The Spells listing in the above table are your effective spell slots." Spell slots is a common D&D term and I think you mean something differently. I think you mean the number of spells, he knows simultaneously. Or in other words: The size of the list he picks, which he can then spontaneously cast from. Where "5+D" means: "He can have 5 spells from his spell-list and one spell from his domains 'currently known'."

How many can he cast per day, however?
This is in the next sentence: "You can cast a number of spells per day from that spell level a number of times per day equal to x3 your Charisma modifier, Every five levels"
and it's highly irregular, let me phrase it as a table:

{table=head]Level|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-
8th|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-|-
9th|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-
10th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-|-
11th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-
12th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-|-
13th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-
14th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-|-
15th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-
16th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|-
17th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3
18th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3
19th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3
20th|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|at will/Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3|Cha*3[/table]
I'm intentionally writing it that way. On levels where you can not yet cast spells you should have "-" spells per day, just to mention that you can't use them to cast spells from lower levels or meta-magically enhances spells in there either. Likewise, I wrote at will/Cha*3 for the low-level spells at high class levels to point out, that on the one hand you can use every spell there as an at-will ability but you also have Cha*3 "spells" if you want them as such (likely to use them with meta-magic feats)


Plus, you also have this sentence in there:
"A Voidsoul can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day, as seen on the table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score"
This is written in relation to Nr.2, the "currently known" as I call them. And in the context above, it makes me seriously wonder, if you have understood how spellcasting works in D&D.
To the point, "only a certain number of spells per day" really means this not "only a certain number of different spells per day. If a sorcerer wants two cast two magic missiles on the same day, this is two "spells per day", one for each casting, not one, because it's the same spell.
This is what bonus spells for high ability scores are applied too, usually.

So, what are my problems with this? I can live with the system of
X spells on the list total
Y different spells available each day (Y<X)
Z castings per day.

What I do not like is, that: Y gets bonus spells for high Charisma. Z should get Bonus spells for high Charisma, however, and more importantly, Z should not be a multiple of the charisma bonus! This is just too much attribute dependency and screams for balancing issues depending on the availability of +Charisma items, unusual races etc.

Okay, let's go on to the next point:

I did not look at the linked spells but from the player handbook skills I can say: No way!! already. Those are some wizard powerhouse spells on there, the very reasons, why the wizard has puny BAB, HD and almost no class features besides his spells.
Oh and other spells from the cleric list. And while the cleric has better BAB and HD, he has minimal class features (turn undead) compared what you want to have, too. You shouldn't get his best spells on the same level.

Given the whole lot of overpowering class features, I'd rather recommend to drop from 9 spell-levels to a bard-like spell progression anyway but let's try to fix that within the 9. I just warn you (or your DM, if you want to play that in some campaign) that afterwards it might still be overpowered.)

Move up Ray of Enfeeblement from level 1 to 3.
Move up Acid Arrow from level 2 to 3 or more
Totally remove Web without replacement.
Not sure about Bestow Curse and Contagion. Better move them from 3 to 4.
Move up Ray of Exhaustion from 3 to 5.
Remove Divine Power, you have Transformation for this.
Definitely, without doubt remove Black Tentacles
Move up Enervation from 4 to 5 or 6
Move up Righteous/Terrible Might from 4 to 5
Remove Dominate Person
Move Antimagic Field from 6 to 8
Definitly remove Forcecage
Move Reverse Gravity from 7 to 8
Remove Horrid Wilting
Remove Imprisonment
Remove Meteor Swarm
Remove Wail of the Banshee
I know nothing about spell lists, so no comment here.



1. It's "you are" not "your" in this case.

2. All that? Why does he need all that? I'm sure, the Good gods like their paladin's too, and they don't grand them soooooo much stuff. Charisma to attack and damage - okay but not all at level 1 that's way to frontloaded. I think "+1 insight to attack / unnamed to damage up to a maximum of Charisma or Class Level / 2 (rounded up) sounds good.
Paladin was a really badly mad class, get over it.
5 feats and uncanny dodge: Uncanny dodge neither fits the caster nor the warrior aspect, skip it. Cleave: Works fine, maybe give a magic equivalents like: Magic cleave: When a spell cast by the Voidsoul deals enough damage to a creature to make it drop, or kills it through a death effect, the Voidsoul regains the spell-per-day used to cast this spell.
Of cause make it an either-or decision. Not every two Voidsouls need to be the same. Also, Power attack and exotic weapon proficiency are not really what you'd expect to be on the training schedule for such a class. Sure, many Voidsould might find that fitting and take is as their character-level dependent feats but they should not get it for free. Likewise I'd say for mighty cleave but that does not really matter.
Meh, bonus feats, nothing wrong with them.

"Every Cause Fear level, They Voidsoul can effect +1 HD of creatures."
What is a cause fear level? I assume 1;3;5;7 and 9?
So this makes the max HD effected at level say 17:
5 (spell) +5 ("cause fear levels") +6 (grip of fear bonus) = 16

Sounds complicated and unintuitive
{table]Char level|1|3|5|7|9|11|13|15|17|19|20
Max HD effected|6|7|8|9|10|13|14|15|16|57|60[/table]
Let's see, by spell description, it's 5. If you made Class level +2 from level 3 on, you'd have a bit less at levels 1-5 and a little more at 8-10 and 12-18 and at all times you'd have something equally reliable.

Granting caster level and save DC bonuses up to +6 sounds overpowered. Add ability focus and a good Charisma (16+4levelup+6enh+2inh=28 is absolutely reasonable at Level 17) and the save DC is 29.
*check monsters* Marilith, CR 17 demon Will save +14, Aboleth Mage +15, DMG lvl17 NPC fighter: Puny +6!!!!!

I'd say half this Caster Level / Save DC bonus and then we can get to: FEAR ME!
This is just wrong. Sure, it's evil to play intentionally overpowered classes but this does not mean that evil abilities should be overpowered.
No save or Spell resistance???? No way. Skip without replacement. And this HD effected = Character HD*3 adds insult to insanity. Do you really want to provoke the DM into saying: hey, your ability specifically states, that it can't effect 58 HD monsters. So I NEED to include one or two of them, or this would be no limitation. You forced me to do this!
No, you don't want this. Simply writing "can effect creatures regardless of HDs" is basically the same but more honest. And with save and Spell-resistance still in place, that's even fair.
Likewise "a 50% chance to ignore spells or abilities (but not inherent creature qualities) that grand immunity to fear" sounds fair, too.



Is that
Level + (Cha * 10)
or
(Level + Cha) * 10
? I don't see anything wrong with a "lay on hands"-like Level * Cha.
Also the sentence "The Voidsoul need not spend any of her daily healing in order to bestow a disease the target but spends 5 to poison, as if she had cast Contagion or Poison as the spells." somehow went wrong, not only because it says "healing" in there. I guess you mean:
"Bestowing a poison works like the poison spell and requires the Voidsoul to spend at least 5 points of Corruption Hold-damage. Bestowing a disease works like the Contagion-spell and has no limit on the number of Corruption Hold-damage spend.
I would change that btw, making both require 5 points.

1. It's really irregular to use "Charisma modifier times per day". Why are you breaking the conventions?No it's not, although normally it is along the lines of 2+ cha mod times per day or something.

Hahahaha. No!
This needs toning down, try something like you are revived 24 hours - cha mod hours later, this duration is doubled each time you are killed.
I feel that this code leads easily to a complete sociopath and "stupidly evil caricature". At the same time, most reasonable DMs will agree with their players, that some bits of finesse, cold revenge and subtlety are okay for the sake of the greater evil. Which then on the other hand can turn this mostly irrelevant, as any evil-doer who does something "good" is "only faking it" and if he is letting an enemy/insulter leave, he is just "plotting a much more evil revenge".

Instead of pointing out, that he must be really, really mean (bleh, how stereotype), it would be more useful to know, how far he has to openly pronounce is philosophy and how far he is allowed to withhold it. Much like with a paladin, who is allowed to associate with evil doers only to redeem them, not work together with them for a common goal, even if it's an paladin-okay goal.

Seriously, just change the code to how you want it. Theres a good aligned version of this.

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-13, 01:14 PM
Allow me to offer a few suggestions in order to help clean up the class a bit so Hazzar can play it in our Tristalt game.

For starters cause fear only frightens the target, perhaps at level 9 you could change the ability to fear? Just to keep the power level correct. Fear also doesn't have an HD cap, so you wouldn't have to worry about that progression.

The spellcasting progression is indeed a bit...different, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. However, divine classes tend to know every spell on their list, as their power is granted by the gods instead of through knowledge. Perhaps you could word it like this: "A voidsoul knows every spell on her spell list, up to the highest level she is able to cast. Every day, she selects a number of spells of each spell level she is able to cast equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1 per spell level) that she is able to spontaneously cast that day. (Similar to preparing spells, except she leaves her spell slots open)

For example, Vanille wakes up and prepares her spells. She chooses 3 spells from each of her spell lists (thanks to her 17 Charisma). She is a 1st level Voidsoul, so she chooses 3 0 level and 3 1st level spells. She chooses daze, disrupt undead and acid splash for her orisons, and ray of enfeeblement, bane and doom for her 1st level spells.

She is able to cast any combination of her selected orisons 9 times today, and any combination of her selected 1st level spells 10 times today, receiving one extra spell due to her high Charisma score."

I would clarify on "cannot be surprised". Does this grant her the ability to act during a surprise round, prevent her from being flat-footed or flanked? It's a bit vague.

Other than that, the class looks fine. I don't see any other problems with it, though others might dislike the Undying class feature, I think it fits perfectly well.

Maraxus1
2011-08-13, 01:43 PM
Totemist - I had to google to find out, which book this is from. I guess, this is only a minor point anyway.

My harsh critic is, because the responses seam to be, that this class is almost finished. It is not, there is the spellcasting which is a mess. I can't even say whether I like it because by now, I'm not entirely sure, how it is supposed to work. Atonement seams to be mostly copied from the lawful good version.

And then definitely, it's way way way overpowered. The favored soul is top of the line powerful and this class can do almost all that and so much more and so much better stuff.
At least:
- The Spell-list. Changes I made, preferably some that go even further then this necessary.
- The Save and Spell-resistance -ignoring fear effect.
- Undeadness, that somehow grants fast healing 10 and damage reduction 10/- (which is overpowered already) plus freaking immortality!!!!!
...these 3 points need to be fixed with an axe, because anyone of them has high potential to destroy the game for some of the other players.

After this it is still a class that has way to many "nice" things, that (while not individually overpowered) are just way to much in the sum of things, thus further balancing with a scalpel is needed.

I'll see, if I can do a clean and somewhat balanced version later.

Togath
2011-08-13, 02:24 PM
Those parts seem fine to me, the undead with fast healing and DR isn't overpowered at level 20, and the spell list and fear effect are not that powerful, many creatures are immune to fear, and a strong spell list is also possessed by the cleric, nevermind, the spell list seems about average in power level. Also the totemist is from magic of incarnum

Maraxus1
2011-08-13, 03:44 PM
Those parts seem fine to me, the undead with fast healing and DR isn't overpowered at level 20
Sure, the Paladin gets a 5th Smite evil per day, cleric and mage get nothing (except for another spell level and some turning/familiar), the rogue gets nothing at all, the ranger a 5th favored enemy, the fighter yet another bonus feat and this class gets DR 10/- and fast healing 10. Basically the same thing. :smallsigh:

edit: I meant DR 10/- and fast healing 10 and ... In addition, the Voidsoul cannot be destroyed if she does not choose to.
Seriously, this is beyond the Frenzied Berzerker level of broken.

The closest you get is the monk who gets damage reduction 10/magic and no fast healing at all. THAT is not overpowered at level 20 - but it's the best you get.


and the spell list and fear effect are not that powerful, many creatures are immune to fear, [S]and a strong spell list is also possessed by the cleric, nevermind, the spell list seems about average in power level. Also the totemist is from magic of incarnum
Sure, the spell list is small, he does not have the versatility of a wizard or cleric. But compare one Voidsoul to one Sorcerer. The Sorcerer is definitely not underpowered (except for some early levels) but even if he optimizes his spell selection, it's probably not as good as the Voidsoul's spell selection.
And the Voidsoul casts them without arcane spell failure! And the Voidsoul has real useful class feature instead of "a vulnerable, useless bundle of your XP" aka familiar!


Maybe you can say: "If you min/max a character using absurd combinations of various splatbooks that not only conservative DMs would reject, then this class used absolutely unoptimized is only slightly stronger at most"
But that does not make it balanced. Compare it to the core classes. Maybe make it a little better. But "a little" means "Okay, he can have a full spell progression with a little smaller selection but more casting convenience then a cleric and on level 20 he can have a DR 5/good on top of it."
It does not mean "Okay, he gets the best wizard spells but without arcane spell failure and on top of it he gets better special abilities then the classes that don't get any spells at all".

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-13, 03:58 PM
[sarcasm]Sure, the Paladin gets a 5th Smite evil per day, cleric and mage get nothing (except for another spell level and some turning/familiar), the rogue gets nothing at all, the ranger a 5th favored enemy, the fighter yet another bonus feat and this class gets DR 10/- and fast healing 10. Basically the same thing. :smallsigh:

The closest you get is the monk who gets damage reduction 10/magic and no fast healing at all. THAT is not overpowered at level 20 - but it's the best you get.



If the general consensus of this site was that the PHB was an example of good design and balance, the homebrew section wouldn't exist at all.

Zale
2011-08-13, 04:11 PM
Maybe you can say: "If you min/max a character using absurd combinations of various splatbooks that not only conservative DMs would reject, then this class used absolutely unoptimized is only slightly stronger at most"
But that does not make it balanced. Compare it to the core classes. Maybe make it a little better. But "a little" means "Okay, he can have a full spell progression with a little smaller selection but more casting convenience then a cleric and on level 20 he can have a DR 5/good on top of it."
It does not mean "Okay, he gets the best wizard spells but without arcane spell failure and on top of it he gets better special abilities then the classes that don't get any spells at all".

You can break the game into tiny pieces just with twenty levels of wizard.

And at twenty levels of wizard, I get to cast Wish or Shape-change or Gate one more time a day. Isn't that wonderful? :smallsmile:

eftexar
2011-08-13, 04:26 PM
I like your version of atonement, much better than simply forcing a character to change his alignment (which I think is sort of cheap to begin with).
As far as the turn good ability it seems more useful than most turning abilities (it actually affects more than on creature), but I've never been a fan of it.

As for your point, NeoSeraphi about the players handbook, I'll have to agree with you on that. I usually balance my stuff between the power of the martial adepts, the warlock, and the scout. Which in my opinion are the most balanced official stuff.
Now I might have said it was overpowered if its spell-list were any different (such as if it granted spells like wish or miracle). The only conceivable problem might be the shadow evocation spells. May I suggest, because of their massive utility, that you offer them as class features with once per day castings.
And 3 x your charisma modifier times per day might be a bit much, especially with at wills later on. That's, without counting at-will, over 80 spells per day and with a descent spell list. May I suggest something along the lines of this: You may cast a spell from your highest level of spells once per a day, from your second highest charisma modifier times per day, your third highest 2 x charisma, your fourth 3 x charisma, your fifth 4x, your sixth 5x, etc.

Maraxus1
2011-08-14, 03:29 AM
Okay, this might still need some looking over. I checked the Devil Lore spells and this is seriously powerful stuff especially with lot's of spells per day. But I think this should be around nice for a game among other min/maxers. As a conservative DM I guess I would not allow it in this version, as it is probably still to powerful. I'll work it over, probably but no time right now...




The Voidsoul
(revised edition 0.2)

Alignment: Lawful Evil

Hit Die: d6

Class Skills: The Voidsoul’s class skills are Concentration (Con), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nobility & royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis) Survival (Wis).

Skill Points at 1st Level: ( 2+ Int Modifier) x 4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2+ Int Modifier

Table 1: Abilities
{table]Level |Base Attack Bonus |Fort Save |Ref Save |Will Save |Bribe Attack Bonus|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|+0|Aura of Evil, Cause Fear 3/day, Detect Good, 1st Domain
2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|+0|Corruption Hold
3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|+1|Cause Fear 4/day, Emperor's Bribe, Unholy Vitality
4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|+1|Turn Good
5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|+1|Cause Fear 5/day, 2nd Domain
6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|+1|Corruption Hold (disease)
7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|+2|Cause Fear 6/day
8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|+2|Word of Darkness
9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|+2|Cause Fear At will
10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|+2|Corrosive Soul, Corruption Hold (poison), 3rd Domain
11th|+5|+3|+3|+7|+3|Grip of Fear +1
12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|+3|Emperor's Bribe (saves)
13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|+3|
14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9|+3|
15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9|+4|Grip of Fear +2, 4th Domain
16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|+4|Greater Emperor's Bribe
17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|+4|
18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|+4|Fear me!
19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|+5|Grip of Fear +3
20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|+5|Undying, 5th Domain[/table]

{table]Table 2: Spells prepared|Table 3: Spells per day
{table]Level |0th |1st |2nd |3rd |4th |5th |6th |7th |8th |9th
1st|3|2+D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|3|2+D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|3|2+D|1+D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|3|3+D|1+D|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|3|3+D|1+D|1+D|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|3|3+D|2+D|1+D|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|3|3+D|2+D|2+D|1+D|-|-|-|-|-
8th|3|3+D|2+D|2+D|1+D|-|-|-|-|-
9th|3|3+D|3+D|2+D|1+D|1+D|-|-|-|-
10th|3|3+D|3+D|3+D|2+D|1+D|-|-|-|-
11th|3|3+D|3+D|3+D|2+D|1+D|1+D|-|-|-
12th|3|3+D|3+D|3+D|2+D|2+D|1+D|-|-|-
13th|3|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|2+D|1+D|1+D|-|-
14th|3|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|2+D|2+D|1+D|-|-
15th|3|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|2+D|1+D|1+D|-
16th|3|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|2+D|2+D|1+D|-
17th|3|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|2+D|1+D|1+D
18th|3|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|2+D|2+D|1+D
19th|3|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|2+D
20th|3|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D|3+D[/table]|
{table]Level |0th |1st |2nd |3rd |4th |5th |6th |7th |8th |9th
1st|6|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
2nd|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
3rd|6|6|2|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
4th|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
5th|6|6|6|2|-|-|-|-|-|-
6th|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-|-
7th|6|6|6|6|2|-|-|-|-|-
8th|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-
9th|6|6|6|6|6|2|-|-|-|-
10th|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-
11th|6|6|6|6|6|6|2|-|-|-
12th|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-
13th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|2|-|-
14th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-
15th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|2|-
16th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-
17th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|2
18th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
19th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
20th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6[/table][/table]


Class Features:
All of the following are class features of the Voidsoul class.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Voidsouls are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the battleaxe, handaxe, heavy pick, light pick, longsword and short sword. Voidsouls are proficient with light armor and light shields.


Spells:
A Voidsoul casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Voidsoul spell list. He knows all spells on his spell-list plus his domain spells.
He can however only have a number of different spells prepared as seen on table 2. These prepared spells are not used up when cast, like a wizard or cleric does, instead the Voidsoul can spontaneously pick from these spells like a sorcerer, for a number of times each day as seen in table 3.

To learn or cast a spell, a Voidsoul must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Voidsoul’s spell is 10 + the spell level + his Cha modifier. He gets additional spells per day for having a high charisma score.

Refreshing his daily spells requires 8 hours of rest, switching the prepared spells requires one hour of praying in the midday sun, which can be included in the 8 hour rest.

Domains:
The Voidsoul chooses cleric domains. The domains he can choose from are Darkness, Death, Decay, Destruction, Evil, Hatred, Law, Pestilence, Suffering, Undeath and Wrath. The first he picks on level 1, another one on each level dividable by 5. He gains the domain power and in addition can choose his single domain spell per spell level from one of the domain spell lists.


Aura of Evil (Ex):
The power of a Voidsoul’s aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to his Voidsoul level, just like the aura of a cleric of an evil deity.


Cause Fear (Sp):
A Voidsoul can cause fear, as the spell, except that he can effect and creature of no more then his class-level +2 and the save DC is 10+1/2 class level + cha mod.
He can use this ability 3/day at first level, an additional time per day at level 3, 5 and 7 and finally at level 9 he can use it at will.


Detect Good (Sp):
A will, a Voidsoul can use detect good, as the spell.


Corruption Hold (Su):
Beginning at 2nd level, a Voidsoul with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can inflict wounds by touch. Each day he can deal a total number of damage equal to his Voidsoul level x his Charisma bonus.
A Voidsoul may choose to divide his infliction among multiple recipients, and he doesn't have to use it all at once. Corruption Hold is an attack action using a touch attack to deliver effects, which allow a fortitude save DC 10+cha mod+1/2 class level for half damage. A missed touch attack does not use up Corruption Hold points.

At 6th level and higher, when the Voidsoul uses his Corruption Hold, he can choose to also bestows a disease. The Voidsoul needs to spend at least 5 points to enhance the attack with a disease. This works like the "Contagion" spell, the initial save DC is the same fortitude save used for half damage.

At 10th level and higher, the Voidsoul can choose to enhance his Corruption hold with poison instead. This requires an attack of at least 10 points and otherwise works like the "Poison" spell.


Emperor's Bribe (Su):
Beginning at 3rd level, the Voidsoul adds to his damage rolls a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus and to his attacks an insight bonus equal to his Charisma bonus plus the value in the "Bribe Attack Bonus" column of table 1.
This ability works regardless of the form of the attack but it does not work against an evil outsider with more HD then the Voidsoul's class level or any other creature possessing and Aura of Evil stronger then that of the Voidsoul. The same limit applies to the greater versions of this power:

At 12th level he also adds half his Charisma Bonus to all saving throws.

At 16th level, the bonus to attack and damage increases by half his charisma bonus again (for a total of 1.5 times his charisma bonus) as long as the Voidsoul is unarmored and unencumbered.


Unholy Vitality (Ex):
At 3rd level, a Voidsoul gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy).


Turn Good (Su):
At 4th level, a Voidsoul gains the ability to turn creatures with the [good] subtype, as a good cleric turns undead.
He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier. He turns creatures as a cleric of two levels lower would.


Word of Darkness (Sp):
At 8th level, the Voidsoul can spend Turn Good attempts to invoke words of fear, death, and inevitability. This is a sonic effect, every creature in a 40 ft burst centered around the Voidsoul that can hear him is effected based on it's alignment:
Good creatures are stunned, neutral (on the good/evil axis) dazed and evil creatures are granted a +2 moral bonus on attack rolls.
The duration of this is 1d3 rounds for chaotic creatures, 1d6 for neutral creatures and 1d10 for lawful creatures.
Good and neutral creatures get a will saving throw against DC 10+1/2 class level + Cha mod to negate this effect.


Corrosive Soul (Su):
At 10th level, the Voidsoul can spend Turn Good attempts to increase the damage dealt by a successful Corruption Hold attack by 50%.


Grip of Fear:
From 11th level and onward, the Voidsoul's Cause Fear ability becomes even stronger. Add a +1 bonus to caster level checks and save DC. This bonus increases to +2 and +3 on the levels 15 and 19.


Fear me! (Su):
At 18th level, the Voidsoul can spend Turn Good attempts to turn his Cause Fear ability into a greater fear effect. The DC and effective caster level stays the same but it can effect a creature of any number of HD. Should the creature fail it's saving throw it is panicked instead of frightened. There is a 50% chance that Fear me! ignores any spell or ability (but not inherent creature qualities) that grands immunity to fear.


Undying:
At 20th level a Voidsoul transcends the mortal coil and becomes something Dark, and a thing of nightmares.
His type changes to Undead, he can thus be turned or rebuked by clerics, is healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy. He gains the undead traits except as follows:
- The Voidsoul retains his constitution score (and uses his constitution bonus for concentration checks)
- He is not immune to mind-affecting effects.
- He is subject to nonleathal damage.

The Voidsoul gains regeneration 2. Positive energy, spells with the [good] or [chaotic] descriptor, as well as good and chaotic aligned weapon still deal leathal damage.
The regeneration increases to 5 within the area of an unhallow spell and is suppressed within the area of a hallow spell.


Morality:
A Voidsoul must be of lawful evil alignment and looses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an act of goodness. Additionally, each Voidsoul must follow the Voidsoul's morals.

A Voidsoul must:
- Revenge any insult or attack against his person or property in due time.
- Never give acts of of charity without an even greater personal gain as a direct result in due time.
- Never show acts of compassion, except if it results in even greater suffering of the target in due time

Intentions matter and when judging the due time, the DM should judge whether the Voidsoul still pursues the greater evil and whether it is still a result of the given mercy/charity/compassion.
Intentions alone do not matter however. Doing good acts out of moral weakness is only slightly worse in the eyes of the Emperor then doing good for the sake of a greaer evil and then failing the evil plan.

If a Voidsoul breaks his code, he risks to lose his ability to cast spells and access to all of his supernatural, spell-like, and extraordinary class abilities, until he atones (see the atonement spell description, page 201 of the Player’s Handbook).


Ex-Voidsoul:
A Voidsoul who ceases to be lawful evil, who willfully commits an charitable act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all Voidsoul spells and abilities. He may not progress any farther in levels as a Voidsoul. He regains his abilities and advancement potential if he atones for his violations (see the atonement spell description, page 201 of the Player’s Handbook), as appropriate.

A Voidsoul can multiclass as long as this is possible within it's alignment and moral restrictions.


Spell List:

Level 0:
Acid Splash
Create Water
Daze
Disrupt Undead
Flare
Inflict Minor Wounds
Ray of Frost
Touch of Fatigue
Blood Drops (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Blood_Drops_(3.5e_Spell))

Level 1:
Bane
Chill Touch
Command
Curse Water
Deathwatch
Detect Chaos
Doom
Inflict Light Wounds
Magic Weapon
Mount
True Strike
Devil Armor (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Armor_%283.5e_Spell%29)
Devil's Ray of Destruction (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil%27s_Ray_of_Destruction_%283.5e_Spell%29)

Level 2:
Align Weapon
Darkness
Death Knell
Desecrate
Enthrall
False Life
Ghoul Touch
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Scare
Shatter
Sound burst
Spiritual Weapon
Undetectable Alignment.
Immediate Devil Armor (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Immediate_Devil_Armor_%283.5e_Spell%29)
Devil's Prowess (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Prowress_%283.5e_Spell%29)

Level 3:
Acid Arrow
Animate Dead
Blink
Contagion
Deeper Darkness
Fear
Inflict Serious Wounds
Phantom Steed
Rage
Ray of Enfeeblement
Slow
Speak With Dead
Stinking Cloud
Vampiric Touch
Devil's Wings (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Wings_%283.5e_Spell%29)

Level 4:
Bestow Curse
Confusion
Crushing Despair
Discern Lies
Giant Vermin
Inflict Critical Wounds
Magic Weapon, Greater
Phantasmal Killer
Ray of Exhaustion
Shadow Conjuration
Shout
Devil Fire (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Fire_%283.5e_Spell%29)

Level 5:
Baleful Polymorph
Cloudkill
Command, Greater
Cone of Cold
Enervation
Feeblemind
Inflict Light wounds, Mass
Insect Plague
Mind Fog
Raise Dead (all sorts of fun torture scenarios)
Slay Living
Symbol of Pain
Symbol of Sleep
True Seeing
Unhallow
Waves of Fatigue
Devil Skin (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Skin_%283.5e_Spell%29)

Level 6:
Acid Fog
Antilife Shell
Blade Barrier
Circle of Death
Create Undead
Disintegrate
Harm
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass
Nightmare
Quest
Symbol of Fear
Righteous Terrible Might
Transformation
Undeath to Death
Devil Form (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Form_%283.5e_Spell%29)

Level 7:
Blasphemy
Destruction
Finger of Death
Forbiddance
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass
Insanity
Power word Blind
Repulsion
Symbol of Stunning
Symbol of Weakness
Waves of Exhaustion
Devil Transformation (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Transformation_%283.5e_Spell%29)

Level 8:
Antimagic Field
Antipathy
Create Greater Undead
Earthquake
Incendiary Cloud
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass
Polar Ray
Power Word Stun
Reverse Gravity
Shadow Evocation, Greater
Shout, Greater
Symbol of Death
Symbol of Insantiy
Trap the Soul
Unholy Aura
Devil Pinnacle (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Pinnacle_%283.5e_Spell%29)

Level 9:
Binding
Blasphemy
Dictum
Energy Drain
Horrid Wilting
Implosion
Power Word Kill
Soul Bind
Storm of Vengeance
Shades
Weird
Devil Apotheosis (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Devil_Apotheosis_%283.5e_Spell%29)


Chance log:
v0.2: Added save DC to Cause fear and Word of darkness.
Added "missed attack does not use up points" to Corruption Hold
Removed HD cap from Word of darkness and added that it's a sonic effect that requires you to be heard.

Hazzardevil
2011-08-14, 11:46 AM
[sarcasm]Sure, the Paladin gets a 5th Smite evil per day, cleric and mage get nothing (except for another spell level and some turning/familiar), the rogue gets nothing at all, the ranger a 5th favored enemy, the fighter yet another bonus feat and this class gets DR 10/- and fast healing 10. Basically the same thing. :smallsigh:

edit: I meant DR 10/- and fast healing 10 and ... In addition, the Voidsoul cannot be destroyed if she does not choose to.
Seriously, this is beyond the Frenzied Berzerker level of broken.

The closest you get is the monk who gets damage reduction 10/magic and no fast healing at all. THAT is not overpowered at level 20 - but it's the best you get.



Now tell me Mar, how many optimized characters will actually take 20 levels of their base class?
I don't have a problem with the DR and Healing at level 20, it's the flat-out immortality I think is overpowered.

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-14, 12:17 PM
snip



Let's pretend for just a moment that posting an entire "fixed" class on a person's page was not thread hijacking and completely rude.

Since your post is so long, I'll start from the bottom and work my way up.

Fear Me is still spell-like, not supernatural. It's also pretty underwhelming. As I said in a previous post, the simple fix would be to upgrade the cause fear spell to fear, which you did, only you didn't extend the duration, left the spell level as 1 for DC purposes, and made it affect only one creature. So your "greater fear effect" that you grant at 18th level is more costly and significantly weaker than a 4th level spell that wizards got 11 levels ago.

Grip of Fear: Oh goody. By 19th level, the Cause Fear ability actually has as high a DC as the fear spell that the wizard got 12 levels ago. Too bad it still only affects one creature.

Corrosive Soul: Needs a numerical amount added to that "Spend Turn Good attempts". Also you didn't clarify what happens if you miss the touch attack.

Word of Darkness:
Right. Ignoring the Chaotic axis of an ability for a class that is required to be Lawful Evil and has the dictum spell on her spell list. Seems like a strange design.

"Good and neutral creatures are entitled to a saving throw". A saving throw on top of an HD cap, huh? Well, I guess that balances the ability, but, huh..I don't see a DC anywhere, or even a saving throw type. And hey, you didn't even mention it was a sonic effect that required them to be able to hear you! Oh, and look, MORE uses spent of Turn Good! That really cuts into the daily use thing without even providing any extra...So let's look at the effect itself. Again, another underwhelming ability. Stunning, Dazing and a +2 bonus...again, with absolutely no concern over whether the creature is chaotic or not. Well, since you're allowing a saving throw, but Stunning is a Fortitude ability and Dazing is a Will ability, that's gonna get complicated.

I definitely like Cipher's version much better.


Turn Good: Fun times! So you not only provide less daily uses even though you're powering half her class abilities with it, you also decrease the effective turning level even though this class is basically supposed to be a souped-up cleric, and she's granting the ability a full 4 levels after the actual cleric.

Corruption Hold: The damage is way too low, poison comes a full 3 levels after the spell is gained and you base the saving throw off of Wisdom which is a dump stat for the class. This ability is terrible in the same way that Lay on Hands is terrible.

Try to understand the level of balance here. It's a tier one class. It's supposed to be as good or better than a cleric or a wizard, the paladin and the fighter and the rogue shouldn't even be able to touch it.

Maraxus1
2011-08-14, 04:08 PM
Yeah, I guess I misinterpreted Hazzardevil's advice to:
"Seriously, just change the code to how you want it."
and changed the whole thing.

To your points, NeoSeraphi: Fear Me is the ability, that allows the non-action to alter the spell-like ability cause fear ... does this make it (Sp)? Good question but rather theoretically.

Grip of fear (cause fear) and Word of darkness: Right, I failed to write down that I was taking over Cipher's practice of making all Save DCs against the class features 10 +1/2 level +Cha mod.

This should also explain, why I would not want "cause fear" to be an area effect, the save DC is just to high.

Further on Word of Darkness, I did consider the Lawful/chaotic axis:
"The duration of this is 1d3 rounds for chaotic creatures, 1d6 for neutral creatures and 1d10 for lawful creatures."
Vertically: Effect Horizontally: Duration. Both considered. And I think it goes well with the image of an LE class, that Battles LG paladins: It's especially dangerous against Good, it's positive for all evil but the effect is strongest (longest) for the lawful, whether in good or bad.

And now I really need to quote this:

Turn Good: Fun times! So you not only provide less daily uses even though you're powering half her class abilities with it, you also decrease the effective turning level even though this class is basically supposed to be a souped-up cleric, and she's granting the ability a full 4 levels after the actual cleric.
Yes! Because the original version is MASSIVELY overpowered, among other things, due to the fact that it has way to many good class abilities in addition to a strong spellcasting ability. By making "Turn Good", "Word of Darkness", "Corrosive Soul" and "Fear me!" all use the same (severely limited) resource, it was possible to put them all in, which would otherwise be totally unbalanced.

Corruption Hold: It's based on Charisma.
And if you don't like it you do not have to use it. This class is good enough with only the spells and the "Emperor's bribe" ability. Everything else is supposed to not give the class a significant power boost.
I will of course add, that a missed touch attack does not deplete points. Maybe this should also be made negative energy damage. Untyped damage is a bit strange. In return the points could go up to Level x (Cha mod +2), but I really fear that then a full points Corruption Hold with Corrosive Soul and Con-poison can instant-kill an enemy mage designed for the whole party and then the other players all say: "Hey DM, why did you allow this class, it really spoils the fun for all others here?"


Also I agree, I do not like the Word of power effect, either. Like you said, the HD cap plus the save is strange but if you like Cipher's version much better, then you can probably see, that I did this because I wanted to stay close to the original, that does exactly this, too.
The Level*2 limit means, it will effect 1 powerful enemy or most likely 2 (rarely 3) creatures of the characters level or a bit below. I think with the limited number of uses, leaving the HD cap out would not unbalance this. Otherwise Level*10 would be interesting.

Zale
2011-08-14, 08:35 PM
The thing is, only you appear to think it's overpowered.

And you posted a "Fixed" class on the thread, which is rather.. rude.

afroakuma
2011-08-14, 09:46 PM
I'm going to give you my frank mechanical assessment of this class, skipping over the fluff.

The table is far too packed. It needs to be stripped down of several things.

The Morality feature appears several times and yet does not seem to change at all based on level per the rules text. It should thus appear at the first level at which it applies (I assume 1st) and nowhere beyond that.

Emperor's Bribe is so many different abilities with no link that it doesn't deserve to be a feature. I would not only remove Emperor's Bribe as the name, but remove all of those features. If you wanted to retain any, I would suggest Power Attack and Deep Impact be given directly as bonus feats at appropriate levels.

Atonement should not be available as a class feature at 2nd level. Per-day uses of spell-like abilities from class levels are not the kind of features you want to be giving out, especially to a spellcasting class. Atonement is also not a spell you'll care to use that many times per day, barring a very unusual plot wherein you have a lot of reformed villains you need to pull back down into the mud at once. So that's clutter that can be removed.

Cause fear only works on creatures with 5 or fewer HD. At 9th level, at-will cause fear isn't a feature, it's fluff. Ask yourself how many times in one day you will actually use the ability before giving per-day SLAs. This is again a feature I would just remove completely from the class, and put into its spell list instead. Grip of Fear does not improve the effect enough to make it worthwhile.

Turn Good is the sort of ability I myself have experimented with in the past, and I can tell you from the results that it is not very popular. Living creatures do not come with turn resistance, and turn/destroy allows no saving throw. Moreover, since the effects of turning generally prolong an encounter, it gets dry for everyone at the table.

Word of Darkness is just an ugly ability; it's the kind that looks good on paper but gets rapidly more obnoxious in play. I urge you to replace it. If you do not, then be advised that you are missing Chaotic Neutral.

Corrosive Soul's wording is absolutely filthy with abuse potential. I would strongly endorse either dropping the ability or turning it into, say, +2d6 damage on your attacks vs. good creatures, +1d6 vs neutral.

Is "Eternal Peace" a Voidsoul ability?

If you deliberately modified the BAB list to decrease iterative attacks, then I would strongly stress going with either 1/2 or 3/4 BAB as a standard. This interacts very very poorly with other classes, and I'm fairly certain that per the rules, writing out +6/+1 is a generous formality as you are automatically entitled to an iterative at +6. This is why taking a prestige class doesn't result in +9/+2 to iteratives or some such.

Fortitude saves, same thing. The medium save bonus has been thrown around for years and is workable, but this... caps at low save, but starts and progresses strangely. I would revise it to a proper low save.

Lastly, on formatting:

In the table, replace Base Attack Bonus with BAB. Everyone knows what it means, and it contracts the header, making the table easier on the eyes.

"You're" is a contraction of "you are". "Your" is the possessive.

"Their" is the possessive. "There" indicates a location. "They're" is a contraction of "they are".

I hope this has helped you in some capacity.

Maraxus1
2011-08-15, 02:34 AM
The thing is, only you appear to think it's overpowered.

And you posted a "Fixed" class on the thread, which is rather.. rude.

As far as NeoSeraphi, Hazzardevil and you are concerned: Good thing is, Gamebalancing is a matter of math and not of majority voting. I do not want to question your credentials, so feel free to answer or not and it will not be held against you but are you players or do you also have DM experience?
As a player you can easily fall into the mindset: "I like it, so it's balanced." while as a DM you have to ask yourself: "Will this disrupt game-play if one character uses this and the other characters play Wizard X/Rogue X/Cleric X/Barbarian X?"

Think of it as a "power per level" value (actually, I remember I made those back a few years when criticizing classes on the Wotc forums). The player can easily have a character, whose power is 1.5 times that, what a character of his level should have but the player will not necessarily feel overpowered because the DM can always pit monsters with a higher CR against him. But the DM needs to think: "How can I challenge this character without rendering the others useless?" and at some point this will hardly work anymore even with good DMs. (But then again I heard of groups where new players have to start as level 1s even if the others already are past level 10, that the game is fun for everyone seams to not be the main directive I would expect it to be)

I guess, this class should be around 1.33 to 1.4. I can see, how a character of this class at level 9 has a good 50/50 chance against CR 12 to 13 monsters or Level 12 or 13 player characters.






Anyway, details, since afroakuma mentioned them, too:

Yes, the BAB and iterative attack rules should not be screwed with. What if this class casts Divine power or Tenser's Transformation (two spells on it's spell list, not something that could not happen)?
The workaround I made uses a low BAB and an additional +0 to +5 bonus on top of the Bribe. This creates a +15/+10 in the end and can always be spiced up by rare circumstances that deny the bonus moving it down to +10/+5. (Like: The Emperor does not like it if you attack somebody above you in the hierarchy of evil, you are lawful after all)

On the power side, this means, he will be even better under the effect of Divine power or Transformation (+25/+20/+15/+10 in the end) but I think Divine power is overpowered for this class anyway and I think Transformation with it's non-trivial component and the lock on spell casting for the duration is still fair.


Saves: Yes, it appears there is a typo in Fort Save level 3 to 5, no big deal.




Cipherthe3vil: I'm sorry, if my revision was rude, my main intention was, to bring the class to a more balanced state, not to attack you personally.

Hazzardevil
2011-08-15, 03:53 AM
By what I said about the code, I meant just change it to fit your specific character, simple as that.
If you want to play a Depraved Lunatic, then change the code to fit that.
Changing a classes code is simple common sense, it's like removing multi-classing penalties.
I think just giving it turn good equal to a cleric is fine, I haven't run the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that Turn Good works better than Turn Undead because Undead tend to have a Massive amount of Hit Dice.
And as Neo said, this is Tier 1, and better than a cleric.
This does not take it to Tier 0.
Wait, no, it isn't Tier 1, this can't break the game in half, therefore, I think it is tier 3.

I think the best thing for us to do is either start a new Voidsoul or get Cipher to carry on with this.

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-15, 09:17 AM
By what I said about the code, I meant just change it to fit your specific character, simple as that.
If you want to play a Depraved Lunatic, then change the code to fit that.
Changing a classes code is simple common sense, it's like removing multi-classing penalties.
I think just giving it turn good equal to a cleric is fine, I haven't run the numbers, but I'm pretty sure that Turn Good works better than Turn Undead because Undead tend to have a Massive amount of Hit Dice.
And as Neo said, this is Tier 1, and better than a cleric.
This does not take it to Tier 0.
Wait, no, it isn't Tier 1, this can't break the game in half, therefore, I think it is tier 3.

I think the best thing for us to do is either start a new Voidsoul or get Cipher to carry on with this.

Hazzar is correct. Even with the powerful spells on its spell list, the voidsoul still has very limited options compared to a true wizard or cleric. (Who literally have 1000+ choices for spells, and the cleric knows them all)

Veklim
2011-08-15, 09:30 AM
Given ample opportunity in a perfect environment, this could still break a world, but it's very unlikely to do it directly. I'd agree it's actually sub-tier 1.

I couldn't let this go either....
@Maraxus1

...save DCs against the class features 10 +1/2 level +Cha mod.
This should also explain, why I would not want "cause fear" to be an area effect, the save DC is just to high.

How is that a high DC? Ever heard of Heighten Spell? More to the point, ever actually looked at a level 5 AoE spell and checked the DC? 10+1/2 level+ cha is simply an elegant solution to the problem of non-scaling DCs for lower level spells, it'll never push your DCs higher than the highest level spell you can cast, and that makes it perfectly reasonable.

You're bordering on Trolling with your approach to this thread, I doubt this is the intention but a little less 'passion' would be nice dude.

Hazzardevil
2011-08-15, 09:45 AM
10 + 1/2 level + cha mod is equal to a sorcerer and slightly weaker than a wizard.

Maraxus1
2011-08-15, 01:58 PM
Veklim: It is the equivalent of the highest level spell a caster of that level can cast (1 less for wizard/clerics on odd levels 1-17, 1 more on 20), plus the bonus gained from Grip of fear (plus any further development options).
And it's useable at will, limited in times a day only by the number of turns in 24 hours! Now if this was the Warlock (imho the best non core class of them all), this would go, since all your abilities are rather low for the level when compared to what a sorcerer or wizard has. But this class gets damage spells (Acid Arrow, Vampiric Touch, Cone of Cold), buff & utility spells (False Life, Blink, True Seeing), debuffs (Curse, Enervation, etc), save or else spells (Phantasmal Killer, Baleful Polymorph, Finger of Death) all on the same level as the Wizard or Cleric. And this as a spontaneous caster, who is able to switch his spells known.

I object your disguised claim that I am trolling. Take NeoSeraphi, Hazzardevil and Zale, they are defending their point of view with the same level of passion. That they share one point and I am rather alone on the other side does not make my arguments invalid.



Hazzardevil mentioned this Tier system. It has some good points although I feel it places a bit to much value on the high levels and when considering power and versatility, the focus is a bit to much on the later (because a dm can design encounters to the strengths of the lower character, they will have their light to shine, unless their power is so weak, that even in their strengths, they are outclassed by the others).

Compared to Wizard or Cleric, this class looses a bit of versatility and gains big power bonus. I think, far to much for this to be a fair trade. You think it's a fair trade. ... I don't know, maybe you think of some cheesy spell combinations due to some obscure spells which I do not think of because both when I DM as when I play, the general rule is: Core okay unless specific prohibition, plus non-core if specifically allowed.

Compared to a Sorcerer, this should be easier. This class has both more power and more versatility. More spells known altogether, more castings of the spells currently active (given normal Charisma for a character focusing on it), way better ability to fall back to fighting, new spell levels 1 level earlier, option to fall back on spell-like abilities should spellcasting be somehow negated. So speaking of the Tier system again, it might be hard to compare this one to cleric or wizard and say, whether he is same, better or worse, but he outclasses the sorcerer so hard, he should be rather 2 then 1 tier higher, don't you think?

NeoSeraphi
2011-08-15, 02:05 PM
Compared to a Sorcerer, this should be easier. This class has both more power and more versatility. More spells known altogether, more castings of the spells currently active (given normal Charisma for a character focusing on it), way better ability to fall back to fighting, new spell levels 1 level earlier, option to fall back on spell-like abilities should spellcasting be somehow negated. So speaking of the Tier system again, it might be hard to compare this one to cleric or wizard and say, whether he is same, better or worse, but he outclasses the sorcerer so hard, he should be rather 2 then 1 tier higher, don't you think?

The Voidsoul does not, in fact, have more power than the sorcerer. The sorcerer is the unquestioned king of damage dealing, he puts out more damage per round than a wizard or a druid when built specifically to do so. The Voidsoul's spell list does not have that many damaging spells, it does not allow for metamagic abuse (Can't qualify for Incantatrix, can't take Arcane Thesis, can't use arcane spellsurge, arcane fusion or greater arcane fusion.)

Tier 2 does not think about versatility at all. Tier 2 is damage-only. Tier 2 is the ability to nuke countries. Tier 1 is the ability to nuke countries and do everything else, and Tier 3 is the ability to do everything but nuke countries.

Now, that said, would the Voidsoul be a high Tier 3? Probably. Maybe even the highest of them all. But it's not a competitor for the sorcerer, because the sorcerer has way more options than Core.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-08-15, 02:38 PM
I think the best thing for us to do is either start a new Voidsoul
which would be as or more rude as posting a new entire class fix in the same thread. (Which I didn't take much offense at, though it was kinda rude)

or get Cipher to carry on with this.

I was just avoiding thread chaos... a few things have been changed in the class.

Hazzardevil
2011-08-15, 02:40 PM
And it's useable at will, limited in times a day only by the number of turns in 24 hours! Now if this was the Warlock (imho the best non core class of them all)

I thoroughly disagree with the bolded part of this sentence.
Warlocks are not the most powerful non-core class, that title belongs to the Spell to power Erudite who can learn all arcane and psionic spells, and so I'm told divine.
Warlocks are only good on their own. This is because If you have a wizard, a warlock and a fighter, the wizard can run out of spells. When this happens, you have a party member who is no longer contributing, they are now a detriment to the party, so the warlock's infinite spells are only of limited use.



I object your disguised claim that I am trolling. Take NeoSeraphi, Hazzardevil and Zale, they are defending their point of view with the same level of passion. That they share one point and I am rather alone on the other side does not make my arguments invalid.


However, the fact you are alone, does not make your argument invalid, it is taht you take many class features and take them out of context, that makes your argument invalid.

How about we take several people on the forum who say that if you PM then, they will critique homebrew and see what they have to say.

VonDoom
2011-08-15, 03:33 PM
Very flavorful class, and as a class that's intended to be powerful, it certainly meets that goal.

The one thing that does stick out to me, though, is Corruption Hold. I'd reduce the damage output that ability gives you by quite a bit -- or make it so that you can only unleash 1/5th of the total damage at a time. This could, at level 5, very easily do 100 damage in a single stroke. And then the class still has full casting and all the other class abilities to fall back on.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-08-15, 03:46 PM
Very flavorful class, and as a class that's intended to be powerful, it certainly meets that goal.

The one thing that does stick out to me, though, is Corruption Hold. I'd reduce the damage output that ability gives you by quite a bit -- or make it so that you can only unleash 1/5th of the total damage at a time. This could, at level 5, very easily do 100 damage in a single stroke. And then the class still has full casting and all the other class abilities to fall back on.

Alright ~

Maraxus1
2011-08-15, 07:35 PM
Hazzardevil: With "best" in this context I did not mean "most powerful" but the combination of interesting, innovative and balanced. I just wanted to say: I like it. :smallsmile:





NeoSeraphi:Yeah, I know Incantatrix from the fact that I have already rejected it as a DM (but that was not for a campaign, just a bigger stand-alone adventure for two days). :) Don't know the other stuff. Maybe you are right there (That would be "there, too", if you say, that "being able to get into Incantatrix" makes a class strong).
Obviously, all "caster prestige classes are a good point for the purer casters. This voidsouls casting ability alone can at most get equal to the purer casters (not for the spell-list but for the know-all/pick X/spontaneous casting mechanic) and some notorious prestige classes for those try to add some special abilities while progressing the spellcasting. So, for the Voidsoul who gets much of his power from the special abilities, they do not offer much.

Since I don't feel any need to regard those prestige classes (or any obscure feats/spells) for the Sorcerer/Wizard for granted, that what a Sorcerer/Wizard is for me is probably much different from what a Sorcerer/Wizard is for you.


And I just read the Tier system as written by the guy who has invented it. It's about power and flexibility.

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played with skill, can easily break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat or plenty of house rules, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.
You are putting to much stress on "Has world changing powers at high levels."
flexibility does not only mean "has lot's of spells", although this definitely is a sign for flexibility, being able to use spells to kill someone, to sent him away screaming with a special ability or to simply hack him into pieces is a form of flexibility, too.
"often better than classes that specialize in that thing": As it stands now, the class has about half as much combat feats as a fighter (though not as optimised) or so to say: As much as a monk. While for reasonable values of charisma, he has an even higher attack. So even in these rare situations where a DM manages to negate a parties spellcasting options, he still kicks behinds. And he pretty much does so from the earliest levels on.


But I guess, the argument runs down mostly to the point: In a core environment, he can really disrupt a campaign, on moderately high levels maybe better then a wizard, on the highest levels maybe not as much but definitely close to.
In an "anything allowed" environment, other base classes can be far better min/maxed, so he really is just somewhere in the middle of all possible options.

While I do not take this as proven until someone actively starts trying to abuse this class in all cheesy ways, I would for the sake of peace agree to such a compromise.






Cipherthe3vil: As said before (sorry if that got lost in the wall of text), I think the most important point at this time are clarifications:
- How exactly does this spellcasting work? Or more to the point: What is the number of different spells he has at his disposal at a time and what is the number of castings he can do per day?
- This Atonement thing still refers to lawful good and good actions. Also the very action of sacrificing some XP to grand a gift to someone seams like it is not really meant for this class, even if it had a chance to lead someone to the path of darkness (as you write, it's not an "Hahaha, it feels good to do evil for evil's sake" class but one who does not even necessarily know he is evil and who is most of all just really selfish and power-hungry).

Hazzardevil
2011-08-16, 04:28 AM
Hazzardevil: With "best" in this context I did not mean "most powerful" but the combination of interesting, innovative and balanced. I just wanted to say: I like it. :smallsmile:

I like it too, I think it is well balanced, but not perfectly.


You are putting to much stress on "Has world changing powers at high levels."
flexibility does not only mean "has lot's of spells", although this definitely is a sign for flexibility, being able to use spells to kill someone, to sent him away screaming with a special ability or to simply hack him into pieces is a form of flexibility, too.
"often better than classes that specialize in that thing": As it stands now, the class has about half as much combat feats as a fighter (though not as optimised) or so to say: As much as a monk. While for reasonable values of charisma, he has an even higher attack. So even in these rare situations where a DM manages to negate a parties spellcasting options, he still kicks behinds. And he pretty much does so from the earliest levels on.

But I guess, the argument runs down mostly to the point: In a core environment, he can really disrupt a campaign, on moderately high levels maybe better then a wizard, on the highest levels maybe not as much but definitely close to.
In an "anything allowed" environment, other base classes can be far better min/maxed, so he really is just somewhere in the middle of all possible options.

While I do not take this as proven until someone actively starts trying to abuse this class in all cheesy ways, I would for the sake of peace agree to such a compromise.

But this thing doesn't rip the world if half, the most broken thing it can do is create huge wight-apocalypses, which just about any caster can do.


Cipherthe3vil: As said before (sorry if that got lost in the wall of text), I think the most important point at this time are clarifications:
- How exactly does this spellcasting work? Or more to the point: What is the number of different spells he has at his disposal at a time and what is the number of castings he can do per day?
- This Atonement thing still refers to lawful good and good actions. Also the very action of sacrificing some XP to grand a gift to someone seams like it is not really meant for this class, even if it had a chance to lead someone to the path of darkness (as you write, it's not an "Hahaha, it feels good to do evil for evil's sake" class but one who does not even necessarily know he is evil and who is most of all just really selfish and power-hungry).
Casting is confusing, I just presumed it used the same casting as Dread Necromancer.

Cipherthe3vil
2011-08-16, 09:05 AM
I thought it was simple enough. oh well. BAM.

a monkey somewhere just turned in they're grave, gave them full spell list as spontaneous casting.