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Rogue Shadows
2011-07-01, 10:06 AM
Damn I've been working on this for awhile.

Anyway.

Below is the latest version of Saga Edition Dungeons & Dragons. Having recently concluded a year-long playtesting campaign, I have put what I learned in that campaign to good use.

In order to make use of this, you need access to the Star Wars Saga Edition Core Rulebook, if for nothing else but the feats. Unfortunately it is out of print. I do not recommend going to Google and finding a site that will let you download it.

Anyway. Away!

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-01, 10:11 AM
Here it is! (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B86CqQWWW_t7MmIyZjc4M2ItYjI4NS00NDUzLTk2MDI tZGNhMjA3MmNkZTVh&hl=en_US)

Okay, if I've done that right, there's the PDF.

The PDF has several chapters:
- Chapter One: Races
Human, elf, dwarf, gnome, half-elf, half-orc, and halfling, as well as a suggestion as to how to create a "member of one race raised by another" character.

- Chapter Two: Classes
Adventurer, Cleric, Fighter, Mage, and Rogue.

- Chapter Three: Skills
Outlines the twenty skills of Saga Edition D&D, and includes a breakdown of Arcana, the spellcasting skill, as well as how to make skill checks.

- Chapter Four: Feats
Basically just a list of feats from Saga Edition Star Wars. I can only copy so much before LucasArts or someone lands on me with both feet.

Chapter Five: Equipment
Mostly just details on how weapons and armor changed

- Chapter Six: Magic Items
How to create magic items. It's very different from 3.5 edition.

- Chapter Seven: Spells
Nearly fifty spells. Enjoy!

- Chapter Eight: Maneuvers
Fans of Tome of Battle...will not recognize this section. Well, they might, a little.

- Chapter Nine: Prestige Classes
Twelve prestige classes: Arcane Archer, Barbarian, Bard, Dragoon, Duelist, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Shadowdancer, Sorcerer, Spellblade, and Wizard

- Chapter Ten: Monsters
Basic rules for creating monsters in SED&D.

Most of the information in there is bare-bones basic.

I would appreciate any and all feedback.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-01, 11:04 AM
Okay, PDF is up.

I know I'm kind of late to the party with this...where was all this when 4E was just coming out, and why couldn't I release this when they were still publishing Star Wars books...

...hopefully sheer volume of completed work will make up for that.

Gustaff
2011-07-01, 11:15 AM
Couldn't access the .pdf file =( Can you put it in 4shared or something?

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-01, 11:32 AM
Hang on. I think the problem was that I forgot to make it public. :smalltongue:

Try it now.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-01, 03:00 PM
Okay, updated the pdf. Now with art! Absolutely none of it is mine, of course.

Solaris
2011-07-02, 07:13 AM
Ooh, shiny. This is something I've been meaning to do m'self.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-02, 09:41 AM
I'd appreciate any questions, comments, or concerns. Or new ideas...

Dienekes
2011-07-02, 09:51 AM
Not really a big problem so much as an annoyance. But Barbarians need to wait until level 3 to even take a Rage Talent.

I'll be looking at more when I have time.

Ashtagon
2011-07-02, 10:15 AM
Is there a way to download this so I can read it in a proper pdf viewer?

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-02, 11:15 AM
Yup. On the page that opens up when you click the link, click File and select "download original."

Then in the menu that pops up, select the icon that looks like a floppy disk.

http://i52.tinypic.com/287i2c6.png

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-02, 11:17 AM
Not really a big problem so much as an annoyance. But Barbarians need to wait until level 3 to even take a Rage Talent.

I'll add in some minor talent for 1st level Barbarians, then. Any suggestions?

(mind you - having to wait 3 levels doesn't really slow it down that much. One of the playtesters ran a Fighter/Barbarian that could reliably deal more damage per hit than the caster could per spell).

Oh, I also meant to add in a Tireless Rage talent...oops.

The biggest concern for me right now, though, is expanding the Sorcerer and Wizard talent trees. And maybe coming up with a new talent tree for the Mage class, since it only has 3 (every other base class gets 4).

I also intend to come up with talent trees for each monster class; and a few new prestige classes. One called "Abjurer," another called "Conjurer," a third called "Diviner," and so on. Maybe. I might just make them talent trees available to anyone with the Spellshaper feat and trained in Arcana and a few choice spells.

I also intend to create Druid prestige class sooner or later, focused on shapeshifting. Oh! And rituals. And more races.

*sigh*

I personally do no like 4th Edition at all, but it does have some ideas that I liked. Still, digging through the 4E core rulebooks to find those ideas...well, my friend compared it to digging through a pile of crap to find a golden ring. Hey, you got a gold ring! Good luck getting the smell off of it, though.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-02, 11:47 AM
Oh, here's a sample character. Specifically, the one I was running during the playtest campaign, as she appeared at level 13.

The playtest campaign had a prestige class (Keyblade Master) and a few mechanics (Heart Points and Darkness) that are not considered part of "core" SED&D. You can ignore Hearts and Darkness as neither have an affect on the character's stats; but Keyblade Master needs a quick explenation, provided in the spoiler.

RELENA
Keyblade Master
Medium Young Adult Human Rogue 3/Adventurer 2/Fighter 2/Keyblade Master 6
AL Neutral; Action Points 12, Awesome Actions
Heart Points 8 (Curiosity); Darkness 5
Init +14; Senses Perception +10
------------------------------------------
Defenses Ref 32, Fort 27, Will 23
Hp 85; Threshold 27
------------------------------------------
Speed 6 squares
Melee Sunseeker +17 (3d6+9 plus 1d6 electric) or
Melee Sunseeker +15 (3d6+9 plus 1d6 electric) and
Melee Shortsword +14 (3d6+8) or
Ranged Sunseeker +15 (3d6+9 plus 1d6 electric)
Base Attack +11; Grp +14
Atk Options Dual Weapon Mastery II, Skirmisher, Throw Keyblade
Special Actions Quicktime 3/encounter, Steal
Maneuvers Known (Acrobatics +19) Rising Whirlwind (3), Saber Sweep (3); (Deception +16) Fluid Riposte (3); (Jump +17) Swift Flank (3)
------------------------------------------
Abilities Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 9, Cha 21
Talents Dashing Swordsman, Dual Keychains, Keyblade Ricochet, Skirmisher, Steal, Throw Keyblade, Weapon Specialization (Keyblade)
Feats Armor Proficiency (light, medium, heavy), Awesome Actions, Dual Weapon Mastery I, Dual Weapon Mastery II, Maneuver Training (4), Skill Focus (Acrobatics, Jump), Weapon Focus (Keyblade), Weapon Proficiency (basic, light blades, heavy blades, crushing weapons, thrown weapons, bows)
Skills Acrobatics +19, Deception +16, Gather Information +16, Initiative +14, Jump +17, Perception +10, Persuasion +16, Pilot +14, Sleight of Hand +14
Possessions Sunseeker w/Puncture Keychain (+1 die of damage) and Olympus Keychain (+2 Strength) (electric, acrobatics skilled, may open or close Dark Corridors like a Nobody and any lock if the DC is 20 or less), short sword (damaging), coat (defensive, Fortitude protective), Olympus Keychain (+2 Strength if equipped), Puncture Keychain (+1d6 physical damage if equipped), Heart of Flame Keychain (Fire resistance 5 if equipped), Hat feather (charisma enhancing, Persuasion skilled).
Young Adult - Relena receives a -1 penalty to each ability score (already taken into account). She receives 1d2 Heart points per level (instead of 1). Relena can have up to 1.5 x her character level Heart points (instead of just her character level)

Keyblade Master: d10 HD; +4 Ref and +2 Will; full BAB.
Quicktime - At 2nd level, a Keyblade Master can in responce to a maneuver being used against them, spend an action point. The maneuver fails, and the Keyblade Master adds the failed maneuver to their maneuver suite. They must use this maneuver before the end of their next turn, however; if they don't, it is lost (and can't be recovered). They can do this an additional time per encounter at 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th levels.
Talents - Relena has taken the talents Dual Keychains, Keyblade Ricochet, and Throw Keyblade from this class.

Dual Keychains: You may attach up to two keychains to your keyblade, gaining the benefits of both keychains.

Keyblade Ricochet: Whenever you throw a keyblade and it strikes a target, you may immediately have it attack a second target within 6 squares of the first target. You may spend a Heart point to ricochet your keyblade between any number of separate targets. You must make separate attack rolls for each target, however. If your keyblade misses a target, no additional attacks may be made. You canít hit a single target more than once.
Prerequisite: Throw Keyblade.

Throw Keyblade: You may throw your keyblade as though it were a throwing weapon with a range of 6 squares. It automatically returns to your hand at the start of your next turn. Alternatively, you may spend a Heart point as a free action at any point between when you throw your keyblade and the start of your next turn, in order to have it return to your hand immediately.

Ashtagon
2011-07-02, 12:43 PM
Yup. On the page that opens up when you click the link, click File and select "download original."

Then in the menu that pops up, select the icon that looks like a floppy disk.

http://i52.tinypic.com/287i2c6.png

The page you linked to earlier looks nothing like the above image.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-02, 01:08 PM
Did you follow step 1?

In the first page, there's a "file" button on the left.

Mulletmanalive
2011-07-02, 06:27 PM
A major point is that the brawler talents are still insulting: they"re insultingly pants in Star Wars and look even worse here. Not much short of doubling the benefits is likely to help on that count. Compare them to any rogue talent and you'll see what i mean.

Like SAGA, this suffers from high level invulnerability: defences scale far faster than attack bonus and damage at top end. Not much i can suggest around this though, aside from using 3/4 level for defences, perhaps...

gkathellar
2011-07-02, 07:13 PM
Also like Saga, it suffers from magic and maneuvers being excessively powerful at low levels. Skill bonuses start 20% higher than attack or defense bonuses, so while the playing field will even out over time, it's going to start off a little wobbly.

Otherwise though this looks awesome. Everything 4E did right is something that Saga did even better, while riding a unicycle and on fire and aping 3.5.


A prestige class is a blah blah blah you know what a God damned prestige class is.

I "loled," or whatever you kids are calling it these days.

Mayhem
2011-07-02, 09:13 PM
I like the racial talents, that's both a nice way to make them feel more unique and it can potentially make your race still relevant at higher levels should you so choose.
One of the human talents says 'Jake' of all trades. I assume you meant 'Jack'?
In the equipment table, the club reads '1dd6.'

I really like your work here, I must say I'm very impressed with the amount of work you've put into this project.

Could you show us some sample 3.5 SRD monster converted into your saga rules? I'd really like to see how it's done.

Ashtagon, I hope you found it I had trouble with that too. In google docs, there's a file menu on the top left side of the page. That's where the download original command is.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-02, 09:28 PM
A major point is that the brawler talents are still insulting: they"re insultingly pants in Star Wars and look even worse here. Not much short of doubling the benefits is likely to help on that count. Compare them to any rogue talent and you'll see what i mean.

Upgrade the Brawler talent tree. Got it.

Then again, Melee Smash is how you get into Barbarian, and magical things begin to happen to you when you hit your 3rd level of Barbarian...

especially since in this system you can easily be a literal magical barbarian.


Like SAGA, this suffers from high level invulnerability: defences scale far faster than attack bonus and damage at top end. Not much i can suggest around this though, aside from using 3/4 level for defences, perhaps...

Oh, right, another thing I forgot is to change how the Skill Focus feat works. Instead of adding a flat +5 bonus, it adds a +1 bonus per two character levels (minimum 1, maximum 5 at 10th level).

Oddly enough I was thinking of increasing, not decreasing, defenses, which seemed apallingly easy to hit at all levels during the playtest campaign.


Also like Saga, it suffers from magic and maneuvers being excessively powerful at low levels. Skill bonuses start 20% higher than attack or defense bonuses, so while the playing field will even out over time, it's going to start off a little wobbly.

Magic...was the fatal flaw throughout the campaign. By high levels, spells are actually slightly weaker than using a maneuver + magic weapon, but because they can hit so many targets - especially meteor storm - over such a wide area, the party's mage was simply obscene.

Add to this the fact that he dipped a level in Rogue for the Fool's Luck talent, and had the highest Reflex in the game even before he used mage armor...

At low levels, conversely, magic is simply too damn powerful, you're right.

I've been considering scaling back skills considerably, but the problem is creating a system where they're still good at low levels and high levels both.

Still. This can be done! I'm on a mission from Ao!


Otherwise though this looks awesome. Everything 4E did right is something that Saga did even better, while riding a unicycle and on fire and aping 3.5.

There is nothing wrong with 3.5 that cannot be fixed by what is right with 3.5

Bill Clinton said that.


I "loled," or whatever you kids are calling it these days.

Yeah, by that point I'd been working on the extreme-extreme alpha version of this (I actually have this labled "Saga 2.0" on my computer) and was frankly getting sick of looking at it. So...blah blah blah.

I've had a year to calm down, though.


I like the racial talents, that's both a nice way to make them feel more unique and it can potentially make your race still relevant at higher levels should you so choose

That's the idea. 4E promised a "race matters" system. I can't see it. So, racial talent trees.

For the record:
Subraces work by using the same basic stats as the parent race, but have a different talent tree.


Could you show us some sample 3.5 SRD monster converted into your saga rules? I'd really like to see how it's done.

Sure! Any requests?

Oh, when you're thinking up your request:

- Giants are now humanoids.
- Oozes are now aberrations.
- Vermin are now animals

Dienekes
2011-07-03, 11:04 AM
On the Adventurer

Skirmisher: is strictly weaker than Weapon Focus, personally I feel a talent should be better than a feat.

Evasion: Is there a reason it was split into two different talents? And is there a reason why Improved Evasion has such high prerequisites?

Trapfinding Tree just seems weak to me, except maybe Finder.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-03, 12:30 PM
Skirmisher: is strictly weaker than Weapon Focus, personally I feel a talent should be better than a feat.

On the other hand, it stats with Focus.

Still. Up it to +2?


Evasion: Is there a reason it was split into two different talents? And is there a reason why Improved Evasion has such high prerequisites?

...eh? I don't get your first question.

As to the second, I don't feel that Improved Evasion should be available before 7th level (as it stands - Evasion t 1st, Uncanny I art 3rd, Uncanny II at 5th, and Improved Evasion at 7th).


Trapfinding Tree just seems weak to me, except maybe Finder.

Hm. Should upgrade it, then. Suggestions?

Dienekes
2011-07-03, 06:22 PM
On the other hand, it stats with Focus.

Still. Up it to +2?

Couldn't hurt.


...eh? I don't get your first question.

As to the second, I don't feel that Improved Evasion should be available before 7th level (as it stands - Evasion t 1st, Uncanny I art 3rd, Uncanny II at 5th, and Improved Evasion at 7th).

In Saga edition, unless I'm horribly mistaken the Evasion talent is both your Evasion and Improved Evasion already. It was good but I don't think anyone thought it was all that unbalanced, made a great dip to Scout though, admittedly.


Hm. Should upgrade it, then. Suggestions?

Maybe make it just Trapper Talent Tree. Make Trapfinder a roll twice on Perception to recognize traps keep the best result (since it's more limiting than a normal roll twice keep the second talent) and drop the higher than 20 DC thing.

Keep Bypass Trap and Finder then add an ability or two on making tripwires and dropping traps of your own.

Solaris
2011-07-03, 06:26 PM
Oh, when you're thinking up your request:

- Giants are now humanoids.
- Oozes are now aberrations.
- Vermin are now animals

I wholeheartedly support this. After all, oozes who become intelligent usually become aberrations (fluffily, not always mechanically) and ooze + anything else usually equals aberration (unless the ooze is eating it, in which case it's "More ooze").
I could see the argument for vermin being aberrations, though. They don't really model natural critters all that well, they just kinda look like 'em.

ZaneLaCoix
2011-07-03, 09:36 PM
Sir, you have done what I have been trying to do for years, and failing. But you've accomplished it with flying colors. To that, I applaud your efforts.

And now to fully read it over. Be back in a few.

First thing I notice is a few of the PrCs are short on talents. Which can easily be fixed by PCs and prospective DMs. At the moment, however, I've got nothing in mind. Spellsword, however, is easily my favorite PrC.

Also, you may want to put in is the clause about multiclassing. What one gets, what benefits carry over, etc.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-03, 10:06 PM
In Saga edition, unless I'm horribly mistaken the Evasion talent is both your Evasion and Improved Evasion already. It was good but I don't think anyone thought it was all that unbalanced, made a great dip to Scout though, admittedly.

Mmn, just checked and you're right.

Thing is, though, that in Saga D&D, there aren't spells like fireball around. Area attacks are more common and more deadly, making Evasion more powerful - which means I'd rather split it up over two talents.

Though maybe it should be Evasion/Uncanny I/Improved Evasion/Uncanny II.


Maybe make it just Trapper Talent Tree. Make Trapfinder a roll twice on Perception to recognize traps keep the best result (since it's more limiting than a normal roll twice keep the second talent) and drop the higher than 20 DC thing.

Keep Bypass Trap and Finder then add an ability or two on making tripwires and dropping traps of your own.

Sounds like a plan.

gkathellar
2011-07-04, 01:53 AM
Thing is, though, that in Saga D&D, there aren't spells like fireball around. Area attacks are more common and more deadly, making Evasion more powerful - which means I'd rather split it up over two talents.

Though, didn't you mention that one of the system problems right now is that area-effect spells and some other magic is too powerful?

ZaneLaCoix
2011-07-04, 02:10 AM
If you're finding early game too powerful on the caster side, it prolly won't hurt to bump the noncaster's powers up a few. Such as giving them some of the "better" crunch earlier to keep them up with the casters. Then buffing up some of the later game spells to keep up with the noncasters.

... This seems to be kinda arse backwards problem than what D&D 3.X has.

gkathellar
2011-07-04, 02:16 AM
Caster power has to do with the way magic is handled in Saga. It's skill-based, and skill bonuses start very high in Saga and only eventually even out with BAB and Defenses.

Take concepts from the less magical areas of ToB, maybe? Dunno. You'd be taking the two testing grounds for all of 4E's good concepts, and combining them in a way that hopefully wouldn't resemble 4E, and that may or may not be a good idea.

ZaneLaCoix
2011-07-04, 02:28 AM
My absolute biggest problem with 4e was this:
Any and all powers, by RAW (not RAI as many would disagree here) not a single power could be used outside of an encounter--which 99% of the time, was against a critter that wanted you dead.
SAGA kept the "do this whenever you wish" mindset which I loved so much, but kept the "magic"/Force under such control that, more oft than not, it didn't break the world. Unless they were going Unleashed--then the DM was just asking for it...

Also the healing surges. Left such a disgusting taste in my mouth that not even the strongest of mint can wash it out to this day. >.<

As long as it keeps the overall feel of SAGA I think we (the Creator and his helpers) are good. For the most part.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-04, 07:50 AM
If you're finding early game too powerful on the caster side, it prolly won't hurt to bump the noncaster's powers up a few. Such as giving them some of the "better" crunch earlier to keep them up with the casters. Then buffing up some of the later game spells to keep up with the noncasters.

It's not so much unbalanced on the side of casters, as it is unbalanced on the side of skill checks in general. Maneuvers suffer kind of the same problem.

Still, yeah. I'll compress Evasion back into a single talent, at least.

Spells were unbalanced in general but I fixed that by applying a minimum character level to most of them and coming up with the idea of "higher level spells consume lower level spells." Previously you simply needed to be able to cast spell X 3 times/encounter; that's it.

So that translated to the party's caster having several uses of meteor storm by level 3.

As it stands now, a high-level caster can still ruin anyone's day, just not nearly with the thoroughness and certainty that a 3.5 caster was able to. Their slightly lower hit chance and damage is balanced out by all the neat tricks they get and the fact that some of their spells target Fortitude and Will, which aren't nearly as hard a target as Reflex.


Caster power has to do with the way magic is handled in Saga. It's skill-based, and skill bonuses start very high in Saga and only eventually even out with BAB and Defenses.

That is, in a nutshell, the Problem.


Take concepts from the less magical areas of ToB, maybe? Dunno. You'd be taking the two testing grounds for all of 4E's good concepts, and combining them in a way that hopefully wouldn't resemble 4E, and that may or may not be a good idea.

I don't have ToB, so can't do that anyway.

Hmm...making balanced systems is hard.

gkathellar
2011-07-04, 08:07 AM
That is, in a nutshell, the Problem.

Mayhap the Solution is to make the skill bonuses more gradual, decrease DCs and increase the rate at which higher DCs allow you to do cool things? What you'd need to be careful to keep is the concept that 1st level characters can be really good at skills, which I feel is really integral to Saga.

The problem being that the fickle d20 doesn't support doing that without high numbers. Argh.


I don't have ToB, so can't do that anyway.

Alright. If you ever have the time/funds/inclination/academic interest, I do recommend it. If Saga was the testing ground for 4E's nitty-gritty, ToB was the testing ground for its "powers" system.

Rogue Shadows
2011-07-04, 08:15 AM
Mayhap the Solution is to make the skill bonuses more gradual, decrease DCs and increase the rate at which higher DCs allow you to do cool things? What you'd need to be careful to keep is the concept that 1st level characters can be really good at skills, which I feel is really integral to Saga.

The problem being that the fickle d20 doesn't support doing that without high numbers. Argh.

Hmm...

I can honestly say that my players and I still had fun with the game at level 1, so there is, at least, that. Survivability of characters is waaay up.

Speaking of...the balancing feature behind spells at low level might simply be that it doesn't matter if characters are easier to hit because they can take a lot more hits.

Maybe give quadruple starting hit points instead of triple? (24, 32, and 40, for d6, d8, and d10, respectively).

Noncombat skills remain somewhat powerful. Then again, they balance against each other - a 1st level character with a +7 to Stealth is still going to have to beat another 1st level character with a +7 to Perception.