Would it be safe to say that Dwarves are one of, if not the best race in 4e?

[Blazen]

They are the best Defenders at least. Con bonus, Stand Your Ground, and Dwarven Resilience. That's not even getting into the feats yet. The only 2 races that I think can even compare at this point are Humans, and Half-Elves (possibly Dragonborn as well).

[Hidden Sanity]

Dwraves are the best at some things... Mul are pretty solid, as are Reavent. Humans are generally solid at everything, Half-elves have cheese potential, Halflings make some of the best 'untouchable' builds, Elves and Deva's make some of the best accurate builds, Goliath have the best threatening reach builds, Eladrian have the awesome teleport builds(And the Fey-charger is quite solid even in it's nerfed format)...

I dunno, Dwarves are an excellent race, but I don't thing we can call them 'best' with absolute certianty. There are several things that they're good at or the best at, but there's lots of things they're not the best at and a few admitadly niche things they're actually pretty sub-optimal at(i.e. maximum mobility builds)

[Surrealistik]

Tiefling is the best at pretty much any class they share a primary stat with (Con, Int, or Cha) at least by Paragon due to their totally broken racial feats (Iron Discipline, Belial's Secrets, etc...).

_Overall_, probably the best race is Human.

[Hidden Sanity]

Oh yes, I forgot Tifling feats...

But I mean, you can build Reavents that keep fighting normally until negative bloodied, 'unstoppable' warforged... Humans are decent at everything but the best at very little, but yeah, Humans are pretty powerful

[Epinephrine]

I'm in a party with 3 dwarves, they certainly are tough. We laugh at controllers that try to push and slide us, we're knocked down less than half the time, and shrug off posion attacks wonderfully, while getting a minor action second wind every fight.

I would rate them as one of the most solid races when the stats suit the class. As others have pointed out, there are other races that also do very well, but if the stat bonuses fit, dwarves are a very solid choice.

[Blazen]

I can think of very few builds that can't make use of either STR, CON, or WIS. Also, as I said I don't think I have really seen any race that can compare when it comes to defenders.

[Hidden Sanity]

-Voidsoul Genasi sheilding swordmage, forcing them to eat your damage reduction.
-Tifling Chalidins for some painful reactive damage combined with painful punishment

Both builds are some of many examples of excellent defenders that dwarves simply can't replicate to the same level.

Again, Dwarves are good, but 'best' is a rather difficult statement to claim.

[Vknight]

Depends because in the case of defenders.

Dragonborn & Revenants make better Battleminds

Fighters dwarves are great under any build

Paladins depending on the build dwarves are in the top 7. But as stated can't compete with others

Wardens Dwarves and/or Goliaths

Swordmage nope there not right any Int boosting race will dominate a dwarf

[Blazen]

Depends because in the case of defenders.

Dragonborn & Revenants make better Battleminds

Fighters dwarves are great under any build

Paladins depending on the build dwarves are in the top 7. But as stated can't compete with others

Wardens Dwarves and/or Goliaths

Swordmage nope there not right any Int boosting race will dominate a dwarf

Hold on there. I thought Dwarves were the best Battleminds? Especially now that they get a STR boost. As for the Swordmage, the Con boost greatly helps with Shielding Swordmages. I'm working on a build right now that uses the Wandering Swordmage PP for some extra oomph.

I will admit though, declaring them the best was a mistake on my part. I forgot about the mobility and damage builds.

[Kurald Galain]

It depends on your taste. For mobility and utility, it's hard to beat a racial teleportation power...

[Vknight]

Hold on there. I thought Dwarves were the best Battleminds? Especially now that they get a STR boost. As for the Swordmage, the Con boost greatly helps with Shielding Swordmages. I'm working on a build right now that uses the Wandering Swordmage PP for some extra oomph.

I will admit though, declaring them the best was a mistake on my part. I forgot about the mobility and damage builds.

No Dragonborns can swap there str for con and they add there con modifier to healing surge values combined with battleminds use Con. Major advantage along with battleminds needing either wisdom or charisma dragonborn can fill that roll. Also dragonborns have frenzy for more damage. In the end the right dragonborn build will have higher chance to hit & damage especially once bloodied.

As for revenant, I truly mean any Dex & Con boosting race, but especially the Revenant. The harrier battlemind is scary effective and with no need for heavy armor can have a 8str with no true negatives.
As for the Revenant with several feats you can have a character with resist 5 to every element can act even past zero move across the battlefield in a blink of an eye, no need to eat or sleep. With there dex a revenant battlemind can also swap to a crossbow or other ranged weapon and use it if needed.
Basically with the right build you can have a zombie version of the Terminator, and that idea alone wins this.

Swordmages are mostly mobility. They either jump around hitting a different target then the one which they had marked then hit him if he tries to ignore them. If not that they grab him and bring him close well jumping all over the place. Swordmages are mobility based thats there point so there mark can be easily triggered. With a dwarf they can't keep that mobility so there stuck near there mark once it gets close. Not saying they can't be a swordmage just saying there are better ways.

[Dalek-K]

The best use for a Dwarf that I've found has been...

Wizard :D

Con (racial) and Wis (racial) gives this "little" (but still medium) guy good all around stats when you have Int as your main attribute.

Plus you can have a wizard that is proficient with a hammer :D what more can you want?

Though before all the nerfing/errata a Dwarven Swarm Driud was fricken amazing

[Gort]

I'm in a party with 3 dwarves, they certainly are tough. We laugh at controllers that try to push and slide us, we're knocked down less than half the time, and shrug off posion attacks wonderfully, while getting a minor action second wind every fight.

I would rate them as one of the most solid races when the stats suit the class. As others have pointed out, there are other races that also do very well, but if the stat bonuses fit, dwarves are a very solid choice.

3 dwarves is going to be very solid. Where you will have trouble is with artillery that can keep out of melee range. Suggest the 4th player is a controller.

[Mando Knight]

Especially now that they get a STR boost.

Which does (next to) nothing for the Con, Wis/Cha Battlemind. Perhaps if you don't have an MBA-replacing power or Melee Training, you could use the Strength boost for OAs and being a Warlord buddy, but it's less useful than taking Wis for the Dwarf's flex stat. And grabbing Melee Training.

There's a couple of feats that are nice for Defenders that require you to have decent Strength, sure, but they're not required for Battleminds and you need to over-invest in what's otherwise a dump stat in order to get them.

[Mindfreak]

It truly depends on the person. In the right hands any of the races can be the best. In my opinion however....
Humans = The Best for Optimizing Some Classes
Illithid = The Best Race to Roleplay With

I've had some good times roleplaying an Illithid, so good that I choose it over a better race for the class.

[gurban]

Speed 5 kinda sucks. I play a Dwarf Brawler Fighter and he is excellent in every respect, except the speed 5 thing. Chasing down enemies can be frustrating, but once I get my little Dwarven Hands on him, he's going nowhere.

[Mando Knight]

Speed 5 kinda sucks.

On the other hand, a Dwarf is still Speed 5 in heavy armor, which means he's as fast as almost any other race in heavy armor. The other guys can negate the speed penalty, though...

[The1exile]

I'm personally not a big fan of Dwarves for Rangers, Warlords or Barbarians. As for the hammer as wizard thing, there's an Eladrin wizard in a game I'm in who uses a sword as an implement (thanks swordmages!) and combines it with Int melee training and Eladrin weapon training to do some serious OAs when they get too close for magic missiles.

[Drglenn]

I've found that they make great rageblood vigour barbarians despite being relatively slow: Str/Con and Dwarven Weapon Training = win
Plus they can rock up in heavy armour with no speed penalties to cover the barbarian's generally poor defences should they want

Basicly yea, they excel at any frontline fighter class that needs at least one of Str, Con or Wis and can use axes or hammers.

[The_Pyre]

Dwarf toughness gets pretty obscene if you pick up Disciple of Stone. You can turn any dwarf build into a good meatshield for a round or two just by picking that feat.

[Seb Wiers]

People generally under-utilize Second Wind when it is a standard action. IMO, its not so much that the ability to use second wind as a minor is amazing, as your character seems a lot better when you actually use your second wind (as a minor OR a standard).

[Kurald Galain]

People generally under-utilize Second Wind when it is a standard action.
That's because it's (almost always) a waste of your standard action. The design principe of 4E is that you use your standard to attack (which is why e.g. healing spells are a minor action).

[cupkeyk]

I play in two groups and no one plays dwarves. They're short, hairy and fat. The aesthetics of dwarves are just unappealing. We like half-eves but not elves/eladrin.

-point for dwarves, primary disinsentive to be dwarf is because they're ugly/smelly/short/fat.

[Crasical]

-point for dwarves, primary disinsentive to be dwarf is because they're ugly/smelly/short/fat.

They don't -have- to be. There's plenty of attractive fanart of -goblins- for chrissake, I'm sure there's someone out there who's got dwarves portrayed in a manner that someone in the group will find appealing.

[cupkeyk]

The only "traditionally" attractive dwarf charcater i know is Gisella of the Kendermore novel. She was voluptuous instead of bulky, she shaved regularly (which is frowned upon by her clan) and her nose was not distractingly large. the issue is that dwarven features take them towards the unsightly range of the human perceptions of attractive. Bulbous noses, short and broad frames and prominent brows remind me too much of prehistoric humans.

goblins just happen to be dirty due to their lowered socio-economic status. which causes rotting teeth, bad skin infecttions. A well groomed goblin would be a greenish half-elf/elf, so its easier to find them attractive.

[Hidden Sanity]

Ok, but you gotta admit that dwarves have serious potential to be grizzled and/or rugged badassess.

[Crasical]

:smallconfused:

I'll admit to not really understanding why you don't refluff dwarven appearance if you don't like the way it is currently, but if no-one wants to play a dwarf anyway I guess it doesn't matter much.

A player of mine used this as his character art for his dwarven ranger. I don't think she's particularly unattractive.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y136/Crasical/RPG%20stuff/Moira.png

[cupkeyk]

Because we play in the eberron campaign setting and refluffing the dwarf appearances is a cosmetic and unnecessary change. but that cosmetic, aesthetic, superficial feature causes all of the players to dislike them.

[Epinephrine]

I play in two groups and no one plays dwarves. They're short, hairy and fat.

<dwarf>
Hey, watch where you sling those epithets. Humans, by and large, are fat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_obesity). Dwarves are solidly built, but that doesn't imply that we're fat.

I don't know that we're necessarily hairy, either, only that we grow beards well. While in humans this is associated with hirsuteness, it is entirely possible that in Dwarves the sexual signal of beard growth is decoupled from the growth of body hair; I certainly don't recall any fluff that suggests that I am hairy overall, and indeed, based on the illustrations I've seen I don't have particularly hairy arms/hands, which one would expect. What's with humans and shaving, anyway? Why do the males wander about looking like they never hit puberty? In the vast majority of species the males flaunt their masculinity (think of peacocks, lions, cervids, etc.), while for some reason humans hide theirs.

As for short, it's true that humans and elves are gangly, frail-looking things that tower unnaturally over us, but this is a strength for Dwarves and a failing in the taller races. Notice how easily humans and elves are pushed about, and how much wasted space they have in their buildings just to keep from smacking their heads into everything. If we were as tall as humans we'd have to excavate a good 30% more rock for our tunnels, with less muscle to do it with. That's not a trade worth making.

Nope, things are just fine down here. Give me an axe, a tankard of ale, and point me at some foes. You can keep your razors and frippery, I'll be in the thick of battle while you're still trying to decide which cravat brings out the blue in your eyes.
</dwarf>

[AllisterH]

I always wondered...if you factored out the racial stat bonuses.. what are the best racial abilities?

[Kurald Galain]

I always wondered...if you factored out the racial stat bonuses.. what are the best racial abilities?

In my opinion,

Any teleportation effect is best (e.g. Eladrin, Shardmind)
Second, any retro-active to-hit bonus (e.g. Elf, Deva)
Third, good defensive boosts (e.g. Dwarf, Halfling)
Special case: the half-elf's extra at-will is not normally very good, but can lend itself to some very powerful combos.

[Drglenn]

In my opinion,

Any teleportation effect is best (e.g. Eladrin, Shardmind)
Second, any retro-active to-hit bonus (e.g. Elf, Deva)
Third, good defensive boosts (e.g. Dwarf, Halfling)
Special case: the half-elf's extra at-will is not normally very good, but can lend itself to some very powerful combos.

Feat support should be somewhere on that list IMHO. Possbily above defensive boosts (that's the main reason I play a dwarf anyway, other than their stats)

[Surrealistik]

Definitely have to go with attack bonuses being top of the list, particularly if they're multi-use (you can apply them to things other than an attack roll). Heroic Effort and Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes are easily (and obviously) the two best racial powers in the game thus far. The exception is if your campaign is particularly deadly (when teleportation may actually be preferable).

[cupkeyk]

I don't know how it ranks but gaining CA is technically gaining a cheaper version of an attack bonus. So Drow and Changeling, so on so forth. Gaining CA is easy and it stacks with Heroic Effort and Memory of a thousand lifetimes though.


<dwarf>
Hey, watch where you sling those epithets. Humans, by and large, are fat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_obesity). *snip*</dwarf>

I guess what i mean is that dwarfs don't fit into any real world human aesthetics. half-orcs and shifters even fit into the snaggletooth fetish. dwarfs don't even fit into the chub chaser fetish. shardmind and warforged fit into robot fetish. big bulbous nose? squat and bulky? hmmmmmn. no, thank you.

[Seb Wiers]

<dwarf>
Hey, watch where you sling those epithets. Humans, by and large, are fat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_obesity).

Not in any fantasy setting based on a pre-industrial society, they aren't. With the possible exception of a few nobles who likely suffer gout. Widespread obesity requires an entire social structure to support it!
Of course, for the same reason, fat dwarves would be the rare exception. Unless you postulate they are using powered mining tools or some such. They would need the calories from all that beer just to keep working.


I guess what i mean is that dwarfs don't fit into any real world human aesthetics. half-orcs and shifters even fit into the snaggletooth fetish. dwarfs don't even fit into the chub chaser fetish. shardmind and warforged fit into robot fetish. big bulbous nose? squat and bulky? hmmmmmn. no, thank you.

There's a snaggletooth fetish?? Huh, I thought I was pretty well exposed...
The dwarf women in 4e are quite attractive, I think. They have a bit of the "female body builder" thing going, without loosing all the feminine body fat. They are sexy in the same way as the girls in R. Crumb comics, only with better proportions. And metal bras.

[Epinephrine]

I guess what i mean is that dwarfs don't fit into any real world human aesthetics. half-orcs and shifters even fit into the snaggletooth fetish. dwarfs don't even fit into the chub chaser fetish. shardmind and warforged fit into robot fetish. big bulbous nose? squat and bulky? hmmmmmn. no, thank you.

Rule 34. :smallwink:

[Vknight]

Rule 34. :smallwink:

No Rule 63.

[zorba1994]

No Rule 63.

How about we Rule 1 ("don't ever go on /b/") this and move back to the original topic.

[MrSinister]

Heroic Effort and Memory of a Thousand Lifetimes are easily (and obviously) the two best racial powers in the game thus far.

I think the elf and the kobold would like to have a word with you. It's a shame kobolds don't get any feat or splat love, because shifty is amazing!

[Surrealistik]

I think the elf and the kobold would like to have a word with you. It's a shame kobolds don't get any feat or splat love, because shifty is amazing!

HE and MoaTL are definitely better than Elven Accuracy on average, especially given their versatility (and HE will always apply on a miss; with EA you have to guess if you did).

As for Shifty, yeah, it's broken good, but it's a special case, and it requires certain builds to truly abuse.

[IcemanJRC]

For Shifty to be fantastic you must build around it, yes, but if you don't it is still a great utility for any class. That opinion is of course if I remember what Shifty does, it is a shift as minor action at-will, correct?

[INDYSTAR188]

If not the best, definetly tied for best. Second wind as a minor action... feat support.... tailor made for fighter or cleric... and +2 CON/WIS is pretty awesome!

[Whybird]

I guess what i mean is that dwarfs don't fit into any real world human aesthetics. half-orcs and shifters even fit into the snaggletooth fetish. dwarfs don't even fit into the chub chaser fetish. shardmind and warforged fit into robot fetish. big bulbous nose? squat and bulky? hmmmmmn. no, thank you.

Well, first off, for the sake of argument, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_(gay_culture)

But mort importantly, are you really trying to argue that the only worthwhile characters are ones which you find attractive?

[tcrudisi]

I think the elf and the kobold would like to have a word with you. It's a shame kobolds don't get any feat or splat love, because shifty is amazing!

Rumor is that kobolds are getting some support within the next year.

Since I've not thrown my hat in to the question: Yes, Dwarves are good. Very good, even. No, they are not the best race. I'd argue that Half-Elves and Revenants are the top races. Being able to poach an at-will not meant for your class can be scary good. Being unable to be killed in the majority of fights? That's also pretty darn good. Second wind as a minor action has nothing on the Revenant.

[Surrealistik]

I honestly don't think you can hinge the title 'best race' on fairly niche builds. 'Best race' to me more connotates overall excellence and superiority.

[Epinephrine]

I honestly don't think you can hinge the title 'best race' on fairly niche builds. 'Best race' to me more connotates overall excellence and superiority.

I think that it is like deciding what the best fruit is. You end up comparing apples and oranges.

[Kurald Galain]

I think that it is like deciding what the best fruit is. You end up comparing apples and oranges.

Chocolate!

[Dimers]

Chocolate!

And ... seconded. All those in favor, say "Aye".

I use dwarves for my two favorite builds. Both are Con-based, both use heavy armor, and one desperately needs reliable self-healing, so that's not surprising.

[Belobog]

I'd say Dwarf and Human are sitting pretty at the top because their big racial power is usable by everyone. No matter what class you choose, you're going to appreciate a +4 to a missed attack roll or having your second wind on a minor, while things like a teleport aren't as useful to, say, a fey-pact warlock. MofTL is useful for a similar reason, but the random nature can work against you just as likely as it can help. Combine that with the quality and amount of Dwarf and Human racial feat support, and they take the top spot handily. Which is a problem.

[Kurald Galain]

I'd say Dwarf and Human are sitting pretty at the top because their big racial power is usable by everyone.
That is true, but so are halfling dodge, elven reroll, half-elf knack, gnome invis, and most genasi powers. Even teleport is useful to any class that doesn't get it as a class ability, although it is ironic that fey eladrin don't make very good feylocks.

Races with circumstantial racial powers (e.g. minotaurs) are the exception rather than the rule.

[Surrealistik]

I think that it is like deciding what the best fruit is. You end up comparing apples and oranges.

Nah. The fact is that there are definitely races with overall superior feat support, racial powers, and applicability. Humans are a great and obvious example, Tieflings are another due to their utterly broken feat support, such that they pretty much are the dominant choice for any class their ability score bumps share at least a primary stat with at Paragon +.

[Belobog]

That is true, but so are halfling dodge, elven reroll, half-elf knack, gnome invis, and most genasi powers. Even teleport is useful to any class that doesn't get it as a class ability, although it is ironic that fey eladrin don't make very good feylocks.

Races with circumstantial racial powers (e.g. minotaurs) are the exception rather than the rule.

Halfling Dodge and Elven Accuracy have the same problem MoaTL does, but worse; the random element there is increased, and in some cases can hurt you. I can recall a handful of times I've used HD on a high attack roll, only to eat a crit when I otherwise wouldn't have. Gnome and certain Genasi do have good powers, but they have no where near the feat support of Human or Dwarf. Eladrin Teleport is a solid choice for Heroic, but as you climb through Paragon and Epic, you're more likely to run into items or class powers/features that give you teleport.


Nah. The fact is that there are definitely races with overall superior feat support, racial powers, and applicability. Humans are a great and obvious example, Tieflings are another due to their utterly broken feat support, such that they pretty much are the dominant choice for any class their ability score bumps share at least a primary stat with at Paragon +.

I'd argue Tieflings, but only because a good portion of their feat support goes through improving their lost cause of a racial power (Infernal Wrath at least, don't know about the new one). The only good options there are either replacing it, which depending on class leads to fantastic options (paladin's wrath), or just ignoring the fact that it exists. Other than that, yeah, they got great options, though the sheer amount of 'if you deal fire damage, x happens' feats they have is bewildering.

[Kurald Galain]

Halfling Dodge and Elven Accuracy have the same problem MoaTL does, but worse; the random element there is increased, and in some cases can hurt you.
Yes. This is why I don't like Heroic Effort: it's obvious power creep. And it's not like humans were underpowered before HOFL.


Eladrin Teleport is a solid choice for Heroic, but as you climb through Paragon and Epic, you're more likely to run into items or class powers/features that give you teleport.
Yes, but you're also more likely to run into items that heal you, or give a retroactive attack bonus.


I'd argue Tieflings, but only because a good portion of their feat support goes through improving their lost cause of a racial power
Well, I think there are way too many racial feats, regardless of race, that are just "if you use <racial power> then <effect> also happens".

[Belobog]

Yes. This is why I don't like Heroic Effort: it's obvious power creep. And it's not like humans were underpowered before HOFL.

I agree; HE is obviously better than most racial powers, since it's basically MoaTL, a really good power, with an assumed above average result.


Yes, but you're also more likely to run into items that heal you, or give a retroactive attack bonus.

Are the items that let you use second wind as a minor? I haven't look through my books in the better part of a year, so I honestly don't know. For HE's part, since it's a racial bonus, it'd stack with most hit-raising item and power, uh, powers, making the human character's hit range that much higher.


Well, I think there are way too many racial feats, regardless of race, that are just "if you use <racial power> then <effect> also happens".

There are, but the other problem is that there's a huge disparity between those feat options between races. Compare the tiefling feats to improve Infernal Wrath, like adding fire damage or imposing a defense penalty, with dwarf feats that go to their minor SW, like turning it into a free action or using it to heal an ally for their surge value. There is a massive gap in power between those two sets of possibilities.

[tcrudisi]

Are the items that let you use second wind as a minor? I haven't look through my books in the better part of a year, so I honestly don't know. For HE's part, since it's a racial bonus, it'd stack with most hit-raising item and power, uh, powers, making the human character's hit range that much higher.

Armor of Dwarven Vigor allow you to Second Wind as a minor action and regain additional hp. There are other items that let you spend a healing surge as a free action or minor action. Diamond Cincture, Dwarven Armor (different than Armor of Dwarven Vigor), and Healer's Sash immediately spring to mind. Amulet of Life let's you, as an encounter power, spend a 2nd healing surge when you spend a first. So with various items, it is easy enough to make a defender that doesn't even need a real healer to keep himself up. (One of my LFR characters is a defender who is perfectly okay with not having a healer in the party, for example.)

[Surrealistik]

I'd argue Tieflings, but only because a good portion of their feat support goes through improving their lost cause of a racial power (Infernal Wrath at least, don't know about the new one). The only good options there are either replacing it, which depending on class leads to fantastic options (paladin's wrath), or just ignoring the fact that it exists. Other than that, yeah, they got great options, though the sheer amount of 'if you deal fire damage, x happens' feats they have is bewildering.

Predominantly, it's not that they have excellent options to improve their racial power, it's that they have extremely strong to flat out obviously overpowered racial feats like Dispater's Iron Discipline, Secrets of Belial and Royal Command of Asmodeus.

[Daftendirekt]

Hold on there. I thought Dwarves were the best Battleminds?

Really? I thought half-elves were. The things you can do with a Half-Elf Polearm Momentum Battlemind are pretty wicked.

[cupkeyk]

Well, first off, for the sake of argument, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_(gay_culture)

But mort importantly, are you really trying to argue that the only worthwhile characters are ones which you find attractive?

Yes, since my argument is limited to the two gaming groups I belong to. We will only play attractive (min Cha 12, non-dwarf, non-shardmind, non-dragonborn and non-wilden) and smart(Min Int/Wis 10) PC's. I don't see why that isn't a valid qualifier for race selection.

[Crasical]

Because we play in the eberron campaign setting and refluffing the dwarf appearances is a cosmetic and unnecessary change. but that cosmetic, aesthetic, superficial feature causes all of the players to dislike them.


Yes, since my argument is limited to the two gaming groups I belong to. We will only play attractive (min Cha 12, non-dwarf, non-shardmind, non-dragonborn and non-wilden) and smart(Min Int/Wis 10) PC's. I don't see why that isn't a valid qualifier for race selection.

If it's bothering your group enough that no-one is willing to play these races because they're unattractive, why is it 'unnecessary' to refluff the appearance?

[cupkeyk]

Because we play in Eberron and Dragonborn are from Argonessen and don't really turn up in stories much, Shardminds and wilden don't really exist and Dwarves are unfunny, grumpy bankers who are naturally ugly.

[Crasical]

I kind of find it a failure of imagination that you're unwilling to deviate from canon on what's a fairly trivial piece of fluff, but if you're all having fun with it, more power to you I suppose.

[cupkeyk]

ugly isn't trivial. and mechanically, there are plenty of con/wis, str/con races to choose from without being dwarf.

[Zaq]

I'd never claim that they're the "best," but I have a hard time making a character who isn't a human. Extra feat, extra skill, +1 to all NADs, extra at-will? Yuh, that's gold. Even classes who don't have interesting at-wills (Wardens, for instance . . . I have a human Warden build that I think is pretty decent) can benefit, especially with those power-swap heritage feats (Foamgather Warrior, Sunspray Warrior, etc.).

I'm sure someone's going to come in here and tell me that having three at-wills is totally useless, but almost all of my characters are human, and I'm glad for my three at-wills in pretty much every encounter (or at least every session). Keeps me from getting bored, it does.

[Surrealistik]

I'd never claim that they're the "best," but I have a hard time making a character who isn't a human. Extra feat, extra skill, +1 to all NADs, extra at-will? Yuh, that's gold. Even classes who don't have interesting at-wills (Wardens, for instance . . . I have a human Warden build that I think is pretty decent) can benefit, especially with those power-swap heritage feats (Foamgather Warrior, Sunspray Warrior, etc.).

I'm sure someone's going to come in here and tell me that having three at-wills is totally useless, but almost all of my characters are human, and I'm glad for my three at-wills in pretty much every encounter (or at least every session). Keeps me from getting bored, it does.

Heroic Effort is even better than the extra at-will.

EDIT: Well, in most cases anyways.

[Zaq]

Heroic Effort is even better than the extra at-will.

EDIT: Well, in most cases anyways.

The problem, of course, is that in my opinion, Heroic Effort is way, way less interesting than actually having combat options.

Seriously. I really like 4e, but I have to actively work at it to make sure that its relatively simplistic nature doesn't bore me. Increasing the number of options I have every turn is far, far more interesting to me than just making numbers bigger.

I don't expect most folks to share my sentiments, but that's how I feel.

[Dimers]

Increasing the number of options I have every turn is far, far more interesting to me than just making numbers bigger. I don't expect most folks to share my sentiments, but that's how I feel.

Yah. I can get big numbers in a variety of ways. I'd rather have a totally different trick available to me, instead. It might not win as many fights, but ... dare I say it? ... the game isn't about winning fights.

[Othniel Edden]

Yes, since my argument is limited to the two gaming groups I belong to. We will only play attractive (min Cha 12, non-dwarf, non-shardmind, non-dragonborn and non-wilden) and smart(Min Int/Wis 10) PC's. I don't see why that isn't a valid qualifier for race selection.

How did Minotaurs not make that banned list?:smallwink:

[Surrealistik]

The problem, of course, is that in my opinion, Heroic Effort is way, way less interesting than actually having combat options.

Seriously. I really like 4e, but I have to actively work at it to make sure that its relatively simplistic nature doesn't bore me. Increasing the number of options I have every turn is far, far more interesting to me than just making numbers bigger.

I don't expect most folks to share my sentiments, but that's how I feel.

Generally, by the time you hit your 3rd encounter power, unless your encounter attack powers are non-standards, you will not be making extensive use of at-wills, because you have better options. Doubly true once you hit paragon and get your PP encounter power.

[cupkeyk]

How did Minotaurs not make that banned list?:smallwink:

Because a Minotaur appeared in the first Eberron Trilogy, albeit briefly.

[Zaq]

Generally, by the time you hit your 3rd encounter power, unless your encounter attack powers are non-standards, you will not be making extensive use of at-wills, because you have better options. Doubly true once you hit paragon and get your PP encounter power.

Not true in my games. For one thing, if you tweak your at-wills out enough (or choose them well enough), your encounter powers aren't necessarily "better," just "different," and therefore applicable at different times. Second, we tend to be big on interesting and bizarre terrain effects (meaning everything from "different squares keep vanishing and reappearing (don't fall through!)" to "there are zones of blackness moving around as the lights flicker on and off" to "there are giant friggin' Tetris blocks raining from the sky"), which often means we can't focus fire and finish the job in record time. No, at-wills are very useful, and those who neglect them tend to suffer.

Again, not claiming my experiences or my opinions are universal. Just saying what works for me.

[Leolo]

The problem, of course, is that in my opinion, Heroic Effort is way, way less interesting than actually having combat options.

Seriously. I really like 4e, but I have to actively work at it to make sure that its relatively simplistic nature doesn't bore me. Increasing the number of options I have every turn is far, far more interesting to me than just making numbers bigger.

I don't expect most folks to share my sentiments, but that's how I feel.

In fact your opinion has already been shared. _If_ the 3rd at will power gaves you additional combat options it is really usefull. For example a wizard has more use for a 3rd at will than for a single attack bonus. As good as that might be.

Simple because wizards have very different at-wills, and that the 3rd at-will opens up the possibility to have an attack for every defense. (and that's a to hit bonus, too). Also this allows to combine some effects like terrain changing and forced movement.

But that is not true for every class. Some classes do not really get much more combat options from another at-will.

[Epinephrine]

Not true in my games. For one thing, if you tweak your at-wills out enough (or choose them well enough), your encounter powers aren't necessarily "better," just "different," and therefore applicable at different times. Second, we tend to be big on interesting and bizarre terrain effects (meaning everything from "different squares keep vanishing and reappearing (don't fall through!)" to "there are zones of blackness moving around as the lights flicker on and off" to "there are giant friggin' Tetris blocks raining from the sky"), which often means we can't focus fire and finish the job in record time. No, at-wills are very useful, and those who neglect them tend to suffer.

Again, not claiming my experiences or my opinions are universal. Just saying what works for me.

No, I agree with you. My at-wills are my bread and butter, and my encounters get used when situationally appropriate. For example, one encounter power immobilises the foe and allows my spirit to flank (with a big bonus to hit for my allies), this tends to be reserved in battles where it looks like enemies might break off and flee, or gets held for a nova round where I can set up the party to dump a fair number of attacks on a BBEG. My other encounter power allows my spirit to mark the target; this is typically used when I need to give us a breather for a round; I try not to overmark the defender's targets. I tend to pick encounter problems to address gaps and to provide situation handling while also being useful in most encounters, but it doesn't mean that I always open with them. The extra at-will can be nice for flexibility - One of my at-wills got used to get the ability to grant saves at will (that's a useful power) while another is a pretty normal spirit attack and grant THP. A third at-will would be useful for getting a ranged power or to flesh out options. Of course, it does vary with class (and of course, role).

[Kurald Galain]

Not true in my games. For one thing, if you tweak your at-wills out enough (or choose them well enough), your encounter powers aren't necessarily "better," just "different,"
Then it strikes me you're picking the wrong encounter powers. Because any good encounter power should be better than your at-wills, and should be used in (almost) every encounter.

The average encounter lasts 4 or 5 rounds. You'll have three encounter powers by level 7, four by level 11, and will probably use a daily in half your fights (and will likely spend some of the time incapacitated). That means that unless you have a lot of out-of-turn powers, you'll have one round, maybe two, where you use an at-will. You don't need three options for that.

The exception is if your average combat lasts vastly longer than this, of course, or if you play at very low level.

[Leolo]

That means that unless you have a lot of out-of-turn powers, you'll have one round, maybe two, where you use an at-will. You don't need three options for that.

I think this is the point. Encounter Powers that act out of your turn are good, so it is helpfull to take them.

And one round where you can choose to attack the weak defense of an opponent is one round where you will hit better. Even if this is only for one or two rounds it can still be better than to only have an to-hit bonus. Because additional at-wills bring more than just a better ability to hit someone.

But that's only true if you actually have those options. And only some classes benefit from a 3rd at will that much.

You should also not forget that you have to rest to get your encounter powers back. Just a short rest, but a rest nevertheless. There are good reasons for the alternate human racial power - and there are good reasons for the at-wills. It simple depends on the concrete character and it's adventure.

[Surrealistik]

Additional options rarely matter from a purely mechanical/performance perspective if you nearly always have a superior alternative to that option in the form of an encounter power (and you should; encounters are indisputably superior save for the worst of them, or very situational cases), even if an at-will has a slightly better to-hit for targeting a better defense.

Again, at-wills will rarely see use once you get your full arsenal of encounter powers unless those encounter powers are non-standards (i.e. minors/immediates/opportunities).

[Kurald Galain]

Additional options rarely matter from a purely mechanical/performance perspective if you nearly always have a superior alternative to that option in the form of an encounter power (and you should; encounters are indisputably superior save for the worst of them, or very situational cases), even if an at-will has a slightly better to-hit for targeting a better defense.
This. For example, you use a dazing encounter power because you want the enemy dazed. At that point, having an at-will with a slightly higher chance to hit is not relevant, since it doesn't daze the enemy.

This doesn't apply if both at-will and encounter power are pure damage; but in that case, the encounter power will do more damage on average than the at-will anyway (and if not, pick a better encounter power).

[Leolo]

Well, that's exactly the question. What does the additional at-will power does? There are so much powers that it is impossible to say what is better in any situation. The normal case is that the +4 to hit per encounter is better, though. There are just some builds that benefit more from a third at will than from a single to hit bonus.

[Surrealistik]

Well, that's exactly the question. What does the additional at-will power does? There are so much powers that it is impossible to say what is better in any situation. The normal case is that the +4 to hit per encounter is better, though. There are just some builds that benefit more from a third at will than from a single to hit bonus.

Those are very rare exceptions, and none readily come to mind (excepting say, Twin Strike for the Hunter, or other similar cases).

For the vast, vast majority of classes and builds, +4 to hit or to a saving throw per encounter is the superior option.

[Leolo]

I wouldn't call it "very rare" but "rare" is a strong word enough to describe it.

The most common exception is (as said above) the wizard. You have a so versatile selection of at-wills that a 3rd will nearly always be very usefull.

Also a single attack bonus will be less effective than an whole area attack that targets a better defense for multiple attack roles.

But it stays an exception - if you choose your human racial power you should always ask yourself what the 3rd at will does really add. And if this is not much for your character build, than the +4 will always be superior.

[Surrealistik]

I wouldn't call it "very rare" but "rare" is a strong word enough to describe it.

The most common exception is (as said above) the wizard. You have a so versatile selection of at-wills that a 3rd will nearly always be very usefull.

Also a single attack bonus will be less effective than an whole area attack that targets a better defense for multiple attack roles.

But it stays an exception - if you choose your human racial power you should always ask yourself what the 3rd at will does really add. And if this is not much for your character build, than the +4 will always be superior.

Completely disagree with both your assessment that such builds are merely rare, and that the Wizard is a common exception to the rule (nearly all of the best Wizard dailies and encounters are Standards). I'd much rather hit with a key daily or encounter power (yes, including multi-target ones; missing a daze/immobilize or forced movement to score lots of iterative damage sucks), or make that important save (including death saves!) than have an additional option that will in practice rarely see use.

Since Heroic Effort came out, I have never seriously considered if I should opt for a third at-will outside of some really niche cases unless I knew the campaign would not get past Heroic (though in fairness, if I knew it would last at least to Mid-Late Paragon, I'd always opt for a Tiefling), and the Wizard is easily my favourite and most played class.

[Leon]

Chocolate!


Chocolate Orange (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bd/TerrysBox.jpg/480px-TerrysBox.jpg)

[Hidden Sanity]

On the at-will... I've had the extra at-will be vital in some hybrid builds, and some controllers do well with one of their corner-case powers that can be used creatively to great effect in certain situations (i.e. Storm pillar). Having the right power for the situation can sometimes make an at-will as powerful as a daily if you're in a campaign with creative or dynamic combats.... ("I ready an action to cast storm-pillar right in the path of the next bug that jumps over the gorge at us.) Monks are another class that likes to have three at-wills thanks to the movement techniques and controllerish effects (I like Crane's wings for higher damage and the anti-slow movement technique, and jumps are just handy, Five Storms for the AoE and shifting, and Dragon's Tail because Prone is handy.)


Yes, since my argument is limited to the two gaming groups I belong to. We will only play attractive (min Cha 12, non-dwarf, non-shardmind, non-dragonborn and non-wilden) and smart(Min Int/Wis 10) PC's. I don't see why that isn't a valid qualifier for race selection.

In 4e, Cha is mostly a measure of force-of-personality, not attractiveness. You can be ugly with high CHA, it just means you're good at inspiring people and getting them to listen to you. And you can be very attractive with Cha as a dump-stat, it just means that you have almost no chance of getting any attention aside from lewd stares, and probably don't even know how to use your attractiveness to get what you want too well, other than perhaphs a barter where you end up getting a lot less than you could if you had a decent force of personality.

This is primarily because attractiveness is entirely subjective(Sure, there's conventions and popular choices, but...) Force of Personality is fairly consistant.

[randomhero00]

Best race is the one you like the most. I love teleporting so you can guess which race I favor.

[Blazen]

As far as the At-will thing is concerned I would think that the Psionic classes benefit the most from it. Monks could use the extra maneuverability, and for the others that's effectively extra encounter powers as well. Though a +4 is still ridiculously useful in it's own right. I think Warlords (especially Lazylords), and hybrids could find a use for it as well.

[Hidden Sanity]

At-wills gained from Human-bonus at-will or HED cannot be augmented with psionic augmentations.